My FINAL issue of Backpacker, ever!

[Doctari]

OK, I bought a Backpacker magazine, June issue.

If it was to magically become twice as good, no, 4 times as good It would only improve to CRAP.

It contained:
A FAKE “letter from a reader” that is actually an advertisement for “The ropes” sex potion. Check out a recent “US” magazine to read the identical “Letter” & see what I mean; it’s almost word for word the one in B/P.
6 car ads, 5 for SUVs
A 6 page article on hiking in the wild far away wilderness of, , , , , , Los Angeles. With; Maps, satellite photos, GPS coordinates, Glossy photos.
An ultra tiny article on One Leg.


Oh well, my 2¢

Suffice it to say I shall never buy a Backpacker Magazine or anything from Rodale press again.

Oh, BTW, they deleted a similar post on their web site. Don’t blame them, just found it funny they left one on Piercing & one on a Testicular festival but couldn’t stand one that criticized them.


Doctari.

[Lone Wolf]

That rag has sucked for years. Outside mag. too.

[Frosty]

That rag has sucked for years. Outside mag. too.
I think Outside is worse. Their target reader owns a Mercedes or Lexus SUV, a "wilderness" condo on the shores of Lake Tahoe, and cigarette boat in Florida they use once a year on their annual South Beach vacation.

[Alligator]

Outside mag blows! I got that mag for free one year and I still wouldn't read it.

But, Doctari, don't you think the SUV companies are targeting an appropriate audience by advertising in Backpacker?

Just some thoughts here.
1. Fitting three packs and three hikers into a small car can be difficult. If you have a family and you enjoy these pursuits, a small car won't cut it.

2. Outdoors people often enjoy multiple pursuits. Although you might get two boats on a Toyota Celica, it is difficult when they are 16' canoes.

3. Four wheel drive sure comes in handy when doing car drops in winter, especially in New England.

4. While I often go backpacking, sometimes I car camp with family and friends. They seem to think this is really roughing it, and I get to have cold beer handy. I could after all be spartan, but my fold out chair with the arm and leg rests is oh so comfy. Anything smaller than a station wagon is out of the question.

While I don't own an SUV, I would not feel guilty owning a reasonably sized model, given my activity levels.

Now if the ads were in City Dweller or Urban Life...

[smokymtnsteve]

I drive a ford escort wagon and have no trouble at all with 3 folks and thier gear.

[rumbler]

Every re-supply ride into towns that I got on the trail was either a pick-up, a van or a SUV. Well, and one boat.

Of all the people who legitimately can claim that they use the capabilities of an SUV, the outdoor activities crew - including backpackers. kayakers and the like - would be high on the list.

Now, you can still not like the ads and as a result not buy the rag. But I bet the target margeting is fairly dead-on in this case.

[Lone Wolf]

Hardly anyone BACKPACKS anymore. They should rename it SLACKPACKER or GOLITER or HURRYUPHIKER.

[smokymtnsteve]

Hardly anyone BACKPACKS anymore. They should rename it SLACKPACKER or GOLITER or HURRYUPHIKER.


:banana :banana :banana :banana :banana :banana..right on wolf

you are a fairly intelligent person

[The Scribe]

morning all

As a sportswriter I deal all the time with "what's important to one person means nothing to another". And this is in a relatively small geographic area of west-central Maine.

Cover one team winning the state track championships and get a slug of emails from parents on other teams saying we are biased. Focus on the other teams and we miss the real "news" of the story.

It's a no-win situation.

I can't imagine something on a national scale such as the 'rags' mentioned here.

You can't please everyone. if there is a story on The Whites in it I would be real excited but the people out west might not be. And vice-versa.

As far as advertising goes, it is the only reason they are able to publish. They would not exist at all if it wasn't for the ads they run. Your daily paper which might cost you anywhere from .50-.75 cents would cost maybe $3 if they tried to recoup all their expenses via circulation. I can only imagine what a glossy national magazine (regardless of what you think of the content) would cost in the same thing was attempted. No one would by it even if it contained pullitzer prize articles every issue.

Let's face it, they need to sell ads, and the target market right now are the baby-boomers who's SUV's never touch a grain of sand. If their demographics showed that the average reader of Backpacker was 18-21 with an annual income of 15-20K, then the ads would reflect that. Instead of the Lincoln Navigator, they would be advertising parts wharehouses for old Honda Civics.

I know I sit in editorial meetings where we brainstorm story ideas. Some fall in our lap (the Maine high school kid, Mark Rogers, just drafted fifth in the nation in the MLB amateur draft), other times we really have to work hard to come up with stuff.

I thought the LA story was kind of cool. It took a man who lives in a concrete jungle, and explained how he turned his environment to his advantage to train for a hike. They might have more subscribers in Los Angeles alone than all the AT fans put together.

I get Backpacker (or Slackpacker or whatever you want to call it). Some things in it appeal to me more than others. The SUV ads? I ignore them. Couldn't afford them anyway.

Just my .02

pcm

[Alligator]

I drive a ford escort wagon and have no trouble at all with 3 folks and thier gear.
I could bust your rear axle with just my beer cooler :jump

Not all of us shelter under a book by Edward Abbey. :D

Add in one extra person and another activity and a car is quickly overloaded. I will admit that while my wife ;) drives a Subaru wagon, we would be hard pressed to fit two kids and gear in the back. For folks in this situation, it may be necessary to upgrade to a mini-van or SUV. Two car seats, kid's gear, and camping gear would just not fit in a station wagon. It really depends on the location and the need for 4WD.

[smokymtnsteve]

I hike and backpack...how much can you carry or need?

[minnesotasmith]

What is a good magazine for nonslackpacking AT thru-hikers?

[The Scribe]

Yes, very good question.

[Lone Wolf]

There ain't one.

[TJ aka Teej]

What is a good magazine for nonslackpacking AT thru-hikers?

WhiteBlaze.net! :D

[Alligator]

Stick with WHITEBLAZE.NET :sun You're sure to get lots of input. There are tons of pictures. Or if you want a more human account, follow a journal over at trailjournals. Although you will probably have to filter out some of the slackpacking if this is a concern...

[U-BOLT]

Of all the people who legitimately can claim that they use the capabilities of an SUV, the outdoor activities crew - including backpackers. kayakers and the like - would be high on the list.
Nobody can legitimately claim they need one of those obscene gas guzzlers.

[Fiddleback]

I think Doctari was just upset about the 'fake letter' (it's labled "Advertisement" at the top of the page) 'cause it wasn't more specific!

But as a long time subscriber I have to admit that, issue to issue, BP is inconsistent. Sometimes I devour nearly every page and sometimes I flip through it and toss it aside...like June's issue.

FB

[tarbubble]

we can squeeze 3 people and gear into our little 3-cylinder, 4-seater Chevy Metro (40+ mpg, although probably a little less with that kind of load). 2 packs in the tight-squeeze cargo area, one in the 4th passenger seat

that said, we bought a Subaru wagon last year because we live in a crazy area with oodles of cellphone-yakking, latte-sipping, curb-jumping Hummer H2 drivers (many of which drop off and pick up their kids at the Jr. High next door, thus loitering around my neighborhood twice a day). i have a young son and honestly fear what would happen if one of those oversized gas hogs was to ram my little tin-can Metro with my baby inside. the Subaru will also come in handy when we move up north (where they actually have winters). but i admit, for around town it is overkill and i feel guilty, even though at 22 or so mpg it's less of a gas hog than a lot of other cars.

[Jaybird]

OK, I bought a Backpacker magazine, June issue.
If it was to magically become twice as good, no, 4 times as good It would only improve to CRAP...............etcetcetc...................... ...Doctari.




you didnt enjoy the photos of "OneLeg"????????????????????


& my 3-cylinder METRO got 52 miles per gallon & I LOVED IT! :D

[torch]

I drive a ford escort wagon and have no trouble at all with 3 folks and thier gear.
I could give up my jeep in favor of a wagon too, if I lived in Atlanta. But two winters ago in Hartford when we got 26 inches of snow and my wife needed to get to work ASAP (she is a trauma nurse) having my jeep meant not needing to shovel the driveway. Wagons and emergencies in northern winters don't mix well.

I will never apologize for owning my jeep. I feel I am responsible with it without being fanatical in either direction. I never drive it when I can instead take my wife's hyundai, but there are times when toting two 17 foot kayaks through 9 inches of mud can't be done with anything else.

Hum-vees, on the other hand, are useless. Unlike the civilian jeeps, which are capable off-road vehicles, the civilian Hum-vee is not nearly the off-road worthy vehicle it's military counterpart is. Why anyone would want one of those useless, overpriced, unmanuverable box-on-wheels pieces of crap is beyond me.

[smokymtnsteve]

LNT

Camp and travel on durable surfaces

[Alligator]

LNT

Camp and travel on durable surfaces
Travel and Camp on Durable Surfaces
Durable surfaces include established trails and campsites, rock, gravel, dry grasses or snow.
Protect riparian areas by camping at least 200 feet from lakes and streams.
Good campsites are found, not made. Altering a site is not necessary.
In popular areas:
Concentrate use on existing trails and campsites.
Walk single file in the middle of the trail, even when wet or muddy.
Keep campsites small. Focus activity in areas where vegetation is absent.
In pristine areas:
Disperse use to prevent the creation of campsites and trails.
Avoid places where impacts are just beginning.

Are you suggesting that we drive on dry grasses? [Drive] single file in the middle of the [road], even when wet or muddy.

If there is a forest road in existence on the way to the put in, I would not feel bad about using it.

[pvtmorriscsa]

Nobody can legitimately claim they need one of those obscene gas guzzlers.I beg to differ. When I was a kid I lived in the Colorado Backcountry. I can think of many times I would not have been able to get to school, or my parents to work if it had not been for our two "obscene" gas guzzlers.
When you live two miles off the highway on a dirt road, that only gets plowed, if you or one of your neighbors owns a plow, a 4 X 4 is damn near required.
Besides why shouldn't a person be allowed to own whatever vehicle they want? If a person drops $30K on a vehicle that gets two miles per gallon, who's business is it to tell them they cannot? It is not as if they are asking for help paying their gas bills. The owner of the gas guzzler pays the higher full bill. The owner also pays more in Taxes on the fuel, for no other reason than they are buying more gas.
Course now I live in a major city, and SUV's are a status symbol. They way I see it, is that if someone wants to spend the money on status symbol, let them. No sweat off my nose.

[Lone Wolf]

I'm with you pvt. I've got a lot of stock in Exxon/Mobil. I say DRILL, DRILL, DRILL!! :D

[torch]

LNT

Camp and travel on durable surfaces
Well, the whole idea behind going to a remote area is that there is not a lot of traffic, so sometimes a mud-bogged two-track road is the most durable surface available to the destination. Backcountry hiking often means the absence of established campsites. Leave no trace doesn't mean following paved roads and staying in campgrounds. When I travel down a muddy, rutted-out two track, it is in the same condition when I left as it was when I got there.

[mmills316]

This year is the first time that I have really hiked and last weekend was the first time I have ever backpacked. Over the last few months I have been reading Backpacker, Outside and Nat'l Geo. Explorer. It has been my awe with some of the stories that have inspired me to get out more and to try backpacking.

This past weekend I went to a national forest (for the first time) and hiked in five miles to a backcountry spot and camped overnight. My pack weighed 24 pounds thanks to many light strategies I have learned from this website over the last couple of months.

While I agree with almost everything that has been said in this thread, I would like to point out that these magazines are what sparked my interest in backpacking, made me take an interest in the AT and also to find this website (which I visit during my lunch hour everyday now).

Marc

[mmills316]

Besides why shouldn't a person be allowed to own whatever vehicle they want? If a person drops $30K on a vehicle that gets two miles per gallon, who's business is it to tell them they cannot? It is not as if they are asking for help paying their gas bills. The owner of the gas guzzler pays the higher full bill.

I agree, owning a SUV is a self-imposed tax. The best, fairest taxes are user-taxes. You only pay the tax if you use the product.

[U-BOLT]

When you live two miles off the highway on a dirt road, that only gets plowed, if you or one of your neighbors owns a plow, a 4 X 4 is damn near required.
It's not the 4 X 4 design that you shouldn't have, it's the inefficient technology. The automakers have the technology to build much more fuel-efficient engines, but they choose not to do so. Why? A cozy relationship with the oil companies, resistance to the cost of a production shift, and a 1950s mentality about energy that they're just too lazy and stubborn to break out of. You shouldn't encourage them by buying their gas guzzling SUVs. Why? Next point --


Besides why shouldn't a person be allowed to own whatever vehicle they want? If a person drops $30K on a vehicle that gets two miles per gallon, who's business is it to tell them they cannot? It is not as if they are asking for help paying their gas bills. They way I see it, is that if someone wants to spend the money on status symbol, let them. No sweat off my nose.
Yes there will be more sweat off your nose, as global warming and gas prices continue to spiral out of control. You and your SUV do not live on your gas station island. You live on planet earth, which has a sensitive environmental balance and limited petroleum resources.

Want to go hog wild until doomsday? Do so, and you'll be sweating bullets even more than you are now with $2.00+ gas going over $3.00 or $4.00 dollars, and not enough dollars left in your wallet to run your air conditioning as the earth's temperature rises another 5 to 10 degrees over the coming years.

[U-BOLT]

I agree, owning a SUV is a self-imposed tax. The best, fairest taxes are user-taxes. You only pay the tax if you use the product.
Oh? And what about the Earth Tax as greenhouse gases build and energy resources run out? Will only the greedy SUV driver pay those taxes?

[Doctari]

But, Doctari, don't you think the SUV companies are targeting an appropriate audience by advertising in Backpacker?
...


You are right. I have , , , , "Issues" with Urban SUVs driven for status (and like the owner is the only vehicle on the road) and I let that cloud my judgement, sorry.

[Doctari]

you didnt enjoy the photos of "OneLeg"????????????????????[/B][/I][/U][/SIZE][/COLOR]

![/I] :D

The only part of the rag I loved! :clap

Great pic, way too small article, they should have done a 6 page article of one leg & a 1/2 paragraph of hiking in LA.

Doctari.

[Alligator]

Ford has a hybrid version of its Escape model nearing release. It is actually what I would consider buying should I decide on that route. Also, a hybrid pickup is nearing production, but I cannot remember which company makes it.

I have also considered purchasing a diesel pickup and adding in a tank for bio-diesel, which is simply used cooking oil from restaurants. Or some other diesel. Or maybe a Harley, but I'm trying to get rid of the beer gut. ;)

I only live 7 miles from work though. Sometimes I just bike.

[Doctari]

Woah,

I didn't mean for this to become a debate over SUVs.
Just a comment on how bad Backpacker has become in the past few years.
As I say above, I dislike SUVs, but for us they do have a place, the reason I mention them is a result of my dislike of them in the urban setting and driven as a status "I have way too much money & can afford to drive a vehicle that gets 12 MPG & drinks $2.20 per gallon fuel, LOOK AT ME"

Sorry I went there.

I still will never buy a backpacker rag even if they remove the SUV or sex aid ads.

Doctari.

[Alligator]

You are right. I have , , , , "Issues" with Urban SUVs driven for status (and like the owner is the only vehicle on the road) and I let that cloud my judgement, sorry.

I totally agree with you on that score. The majority of SUV owners outside the snow belt will never need to engage the 4WD, will never strap a boat on the roof, drive down a gravel road, or park the vehicle at a remote trailhead. I have several friends in this category who would get the same use out of a minivan or station wagon. Or buy a Lexus.

[Peep]

:banana :banana :banana :banana :banana :banana..right on wolf

you are a fairly intelligent person


Yes, L. Wolf tells it straight up - just like it is. We need more of that.
:clap :clap :clap

[Bankrobber]

What is a good magazine for nonslackpacking AT thru-hikers?

If you have already hiked the AT, than you probably do not need to read a magazine that describes the Appalachian Trail. The memories are still in your head, and there are other trails to look forwards If there were one, it should discuss some other hikes. If it is the community you are looking for read the ATC's magazine.

I like Backpacker. I especially like the new features showing backcountry hikes that require map and compass/gps skills. I read it to discover new hikes. I plan on hiking some of those hikes this summer when I head out West.

Serious outdoorspeople need 4 wheel drive vehicles to get to trailheads. The AT is an exception in that in generally goes through well traveled areas. If anyone recalls, Edward Abbey drove a truck that I am sure guzzled gas. I don't support people who never need SUV's to buy them, but some people do need them.
Joe

[smokymtnsteve]

THE WORDS OF ABBEY

"Machines[off-road vehicles] are domineering, exclusive, destructive and costly; it is they and their operators who would deny the enjoyment of the back country to the rest of us. About 98% of the land surface of the contiguous USA already belongs to heavy metal and heavy equipment. Let us save the 2% - that saving remnant."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY


Link to pic of Edwards truck,,,it sure wasn't a nice one

http://www.abbeyweb.net/articles/amyb/idrove.html

[smokymtnsteve]

as my son works as an ATV guide in Healy AK! :bse

Now for a word from Ed ABBEY

"Do not burn yourselves out. Be as I am-- a reluctant enthusiast...a part time crusader, a half-hearted fanatic. Save the other half of yourselves and your lives for pleasure and adventure. It is not enough to fight for the land; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. While it is still there. So go out there and hunt and fish and mess around with your friends, ramble out yonder and explore the forests, encounter the grizz, climb the mountains, and bag the peaks.... and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over your enemies, over those deskbound people with their hearts in a safe deposit box... I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards."

[Jack Tarlin]

Steve---

With no disrespect towards you or your son, I gotta say that it's pretty amusing that you close your post with a play at erudition by quoting Edward Abbey.....Ed Abbey died before ATV's really took off, but I feel pretty safe in saying that he'd think very little of them, and that he probably wouldn't have much to say in favor of folks who make a living off them. I suspect he wouldn't much care for their riders......OR their guides.

[smokymtnsteve]

Nice to hear from you jack...How is your daughter in AK?

actually the company where my son works has rehabilitated an old coal mine,
this is where the ATVs travel. within the confines of the old strip mine which has\is being reclaimed. of course Jack being that we are both using a computer which uses electricity we are both responsible for coal fired power plants. one must always look n the mirror.

read the link about abbey's truck it is enlightning, since eddie did drive in the backcountry and loved doing it.


more words of abbey

"We are slaves in the sense that we depend for our daily survival upon an expand-or-expire agro-industrial empire—a crackpot machine—that the specialists cannot comprehend and the managers cannot manage. Which is, furthermore, devouring world resources at an exponential rate. We are, most of us, dependent employees". …Edward Abbey (1927-1989)

THANKS BE TO ABBEY

[Needles]

Nobody can legitimately claim they need one of those obscene gas guzzlers.

I am currently trying to decide if I should purchase a MINI Cooper S... so I can have MORE cargo space than I currently do. Then I think about how much stuff I have loaded into my Miata in the past and wonder if I actually need the extra space. I normally hike by myself or with one friend, and both of us and our gear fits in the Miata (it isn't pretty, but it fits).

[celt]

1. Fitting three packs and three hikers into a small car can be difficult. If you have a family and you enjoy these pursuits, a small car won't cut it.

2. Outdoors people often enjoy multiple pursuits. Although you might get two boats on a Toyota Celica, it is difficult when they are 16' canoes.

3. Four wheel drive sure comes in handy when doing car drops in winter, especially in New England.

I grew up doing all these activities with a 1964 VW beetle for a family car. My parents, brother and I fit gear and food for week-long camping trips in the mountains and on the water inside our sure-footed bug with two 17' canoes and sometimes a fiberglass kayak on the roof. If someone decides to get an SUV to persue their hobbies its not because its impossible to get by with anything less, its because they've decided making their life more convenient is what is most important to them.

[Alligator]

I am currently trying to decide if I should purchase a MINI Cooper S... so I can have MORE cargo space than I currently do. Then I think about how much stuff I have loaded into my Miata in the past and wonder if I actually need the extra space. I normally hike by myself or with one friend, and both of us and our gear fits in the Miata (it isn't pretty, but it fits).
That's the problem with a Miata, you can only have one friend.

And they're great in the snow.

And you can get a canoe on top.

Sorry Needles, I happen to like both cars, especially the Coopers, but you're not winning me over with that.

[Saluki Dave]

"...at a used car lot on the edge of town
A liberal guy and a liberal gal
Buy a Yugo
And they drive with pride."

[Alligator]

I grew up doing all these activities with a 1964 VW beetle for a family car. My parents, brother and I fit gear and food for week-long camping trips in the mountains and on the water inside our sure-footed bug with two 17' canoes and sometimes a fiberglass kayak on the roof. If someone decides to get an SUV to persue their hobbies its not because its impossible to get by with anything less, its because they've decided making their life more convenient is what is most important to them.

Send some pictures, it will be fun to see. Some questions,

Do you think that the weight of your canoes, kayak, camping gear, food for a week and two adults and two children were below the safe operating limits of your vehicle?

Was that 1200-1500 engine underpowered?

Would your parents have bought a bigger car if they could have?

Did you seriously enjoy sitting in the back seat?

I've owned several Beetles, so I won't argue that it wouldn't have been good in the snow and mud, but the clearance sucks.

I didn't say it was impossible. Go to the circus and you can watch 20 clowns come out of the clown car. I don't want to drive with them.

Yes, it is convenient to be able to put all of your recreational gear in the vehicle.

Yes it is convenient to have a vehicle capable of reaching the trail head.

Yes it is convenient to drive a car whose response is not significantly impaired by load.

Yes, it is convenient to have 4WD in the winter.

Yes it is convenient to be able travel on a long trip without smelling your brother's armpit.

No, my family when I was small would not have fit in a VW Bug. The six of us went camping in a full size van. We drove around town in a big-a$$ station wagon. It was fun to sit in the back seat facing all the drivers :) (That's the foldout seat for you really young folks.) As a matter of fact, my father, my three brothers, and I are all over 6 feet tall.

No, families of four or five are not going to fit in a Cooper.

No, a minivan is not the best car in the snow.

There are trade-offs to every vehicle just as there are trade-offs to gear. You can stuff all you want, but at some point, some people will cross the line and need a bigger vehicle, just like you may own a winter pack and a summer pack. If those people are outdoors people, then they might also benefit from four wheel drive, or live in a climate where it is necessary. Like I've already said, many folks who have SUV's do not need them. But there are folks who can put them to good use.

But I was really just pointing out that targeting SUV's to a recreational crowd is understable marketing.

[Pencil Pusher]

Wow, I almost forgot what this thread was about. Anyway, pcm hit the nail on the head.

[Skeemer]

Geez, guys it's a magazine targeted at backpackers. They're just trying to make a buck by providing a service to hikers, etc. Guess what? if enough of us don't subscribe, they can't sell ads and will go out of business. It happens all of the time. So my theory is, they must be offering enough interesting stuff or the marketplace wouldn't fork over $20+ a year for 9 issues. It's called the free enterprise system (I know some of you are socialists and can't stand it)

BTW, it was great to visit their tent at Trail Days. Got a free pair of Smartwools and they gave me this neat little toothbrush that feeds the toothpaste through the handle.

Oh and yeah, I liked the Subaru's at Trail Days. Wish I needed one.

Most backpackers have a few bucks to spend, don't they?

[Kozmic Zian]

Yea.......SLACKPACKER! Damn, I agree with LW. What's the world comin' to. KZ@

[Lugnut]

Are Edward Abbey and Lone Wolf related? There are similarities. I'm not sure who I just offended! :D

[tlbj6142]

Hardly anyone BACKPACKS anymore. They should rename it SLACKPACKER or GOLITER or HURRYUPHIKER.So, what is backpacking? I can understand excluding slackpacker as they are not carrying all of their gear. I fail to see how lightweight hikers are not backpacking.

[Lone Wolf]

35+ pounds

[smokymtnsteve]

and you gotta have a frying pan and coffee pot.

[Lone Wolf]

No ramen or noodles and sauce either. No water filter. No Leki or ant other poles.

[smokymtnsteve]

I agree with not having the ramen noodles and sauce,,,and the poles,,,

but I do have a water filter..and water filters aren't lightweight.

[steve hiker]

No wimpy running shoes, either. Real backpackers wear 100% leather boots only. The kind that take 3 weeks and 29 blisters to break in.

[Lone Wolf]

As long as they ain't those overrated, overpriced Limmer boots.

[smokymtnsteve]

and those iso/butane cannister stoves...you can't splash some iso/butane in the fire and make it burn....you can't go backpacking without some coleman fuel...i carry an extra bottle of coleman with me. ;)

[Alligator]

And you have to hike uphill, both ways.

[Pencil Pusher]

and those iso/butane cannister stoves...you can't splash some iso/butane in the fire and make it burn....you can't go backpacking without some coleman fuel...i carry an extra bottle of coleman with me. ;)
Let me guess, for plastic bag malatovs...:eek:

[Frog]

I must agree with fiddleback. Sometimes i get a good laugh at some of the outlandish stories in BP. That in it self is sometimes worth the cost. The information is a lot of times stuff that makes me laugh But i enjoy learning about other peoples mistakes and learning what they think about a new piece of equipment. And after all this is one of the best ways of learning that there is new equipment out there. Just my 2 cents worth. Oh and i dont care if you buy there mag or not after all its your money use it as you wish.

[nazdarovye]

OK, I bought a Backpacker magazine, June issue.
...
It contained:
A FAKE “letter from a reader” that is actually an advertisement for “The ropes” sex potion. Check out a recent “US” magazine to read the identical “Letter” & see what I mean; it’s almost word for word the one in B/P.

Uh, dude, that's called an "advertisement" (it even says so in big letters at the top of the page). I guess they use that format because there are still gullible people out there.

Anyway, I thought some of the articles were entertaining - for example, the stair walking one - but I would agree that the magazine is less and less about backpacking and more and more about shorter hikes and walking. It seems aimed more at those for whom comforts like cabins (also in the latest issue) are enticing, and at being a gear catalog for advertisers.

They probably have a pretty good bead on their core audience, or where the largest subscription base can be found, based on their advertisers' needs.

Meanwhile, I think the internet is slowly taking over for more serious backpackers and for those interested in discussing techniques. It's more immediate than any print magazine, with its months of editorial and production lead time, could ever be.

[Noggin]

They probably have a pretty good bead on their core audience, or where the largest subscription base can be found, based on their advertisers' needs.
I believe you're right on. They know where the money comes from, and most of their subscribers are probably dreamers who rarely do more than a dayhike.

[tlbj6142]

No ramen or noodles and sauce either.OK, that's where I draw the line. Making meals has to be one of the worst aspects of hiking. Hell, I don't want to make my meals at home either.

If someone would make a pill that would keep me healthy on the trail, I'd take it.

Eating, what a waste of time.

[Pencil Pusher]

Hey, if they create a pill for the trail, maybe they sell them in bulk for the home?

[Tim Seaver]

There is going to be an article in BP on trail towns in the September issue, featuring some of the quirkier towns like Monson, Maine, etc.

[Shoe Leather Express]

I drive a ford escort wagon and have no trouble at all with 3 folks and thier gear.
I drive an 02 Ford Explorer, and I'm usually by myself! :D

Don't be angry though. It gets better gas mileage than my Mustang, which has a built motor and all the emissions equipment (except two mufflers) removed. I get 13 mile per gallon out of that environmental nightmare. :D EGR? GONE! Smog pump? GONE! Catalytic converters? GONE! That's 15 free horse power, baby! :banana


Nobody can legitimately claim they need one of those obscene gas guzzlers.
LOL. When you buy a peddle bike and use it to travel everywhere you go I'll take your opinion into consideration. I've gotten to work via that 4X4 in the winter. I've used it to tow my Mustang and a buddie's truck. I load it with camping gear when I take the family car camping. I haul firewood in it. I've hauled lumber in it. I've hauled a new washer and drier in it (instead of paying the delivery fee for an even bigger truck to drop them off ;)).

Not a damned one of you beatniks have given a valid arguement against SUVs. Not even your environmental arguement is valid. For as many articles you post supporting your claim, there are as many out there to refute it. Hell, the current opinion of the scientific community is that were headed for an ice age, not a green house. It all boils down to "WHAH! I hate them so ban them! WHAH!

Now, to get on topic of the thread:

I just subscribed to the magazine. So far I'm iffy on whether or not I like it. There really wan't too much in the last two issues to get excited over. Instead of desert hiking teqnique you got some crap about hiking routes in the desert and rock climbing, with a mention of bring extra water. ***? I liked the article about the cabins. You had to hike into them, so they are pretty secluded, and seclusion from the public is exactly why I hike. The blurb on Rogers was too short, and the article on the city (LA, I think) was too long. Who gives a tinker's damn about hiking the stair cases in LA? "Oh, look at this view. You can see the rooftops! Oh wait, there's more roof tops over here!" GTFO of here.

A half page article on whether a pancake is flatter than Kansas (May issue)? Interesting, but who gives a. . . . ? Pages 95-98 of their May issue cover canoeing gear. Again, ***? I thought this was a backpackers magazine? Page 101 contains a half assed article on harmonica selection and playing. Their article on staying dry in a down pour is shorter than the article on whether or not Kansas is flatter than a pancake. I don't know about you, but that staying dry article seems a bit more important to me.

Some articles and information are good. I like the gear reviews. I like the Ask Kristan (the advice section) segment; but it needs to be longer. I'm sure more than two people write in with questions every month. (She only answers two questions.) I like articles on other places like the desert or the Sierras or the Rockies; but how about expanding on them? A bigger section dedicated to eating on the trail would be nice too.

[Big Oak]

I wouldn't put too much stock in a magazine that resorts to sex ads to pay the bills.

[Jester2000]

Shoe Leather Express --
I'm not the kind of person who is going to say that SUV's are evil, 'cause they're not, and I'm not going to say that there's absolutely no one out there who needs one, 'cause there are. But let's not pretend that they're somehow not bad for the humans on this planet when everyone and their brother is buying one, when the majority of people who have them do not need them, when auto companies are deliberately pushing them because they allow the companies to skirt CAFE emission standards, when they are not, in fact, safer, more efficient, or more reliable than, say, a less cool looking minivan.

If you're really interested in the subject, and not just burying your head in the sand to avoid SUV-induced guilt, read High and Mighty. It's in paperback now and an excellent history of the rise of the SUV.

We all should try to balance what we want with what we need with what is good for us. The problem right now is that too many of us are choosing to look cool.

[A-Train]

Shoe Leather,

Instead of wasting your time whining about the quality of Backpacker's articles and giving suggestions to a bunch of people who don't care for the mag, why don't you write to the mag itself? I think that would be time better spent

[Shoe Leather Express]

Shoe Leather Express --
But let's not pretend that they're somehow not bad for the humans on this planet when everyone and their brother is buying one ...
Ad Nauseam - Say it enough and people will believe it.

Everyone and their brother can afford a $25,000+ vehicle, gas to drive it, and insurance? I guess our economy is doing better than some presidential candidates would have you believe. What are the percentages of new cars sold, let’s say in the last 5 years, that were SUVs?


... when the majority of people who have them do not need them ...
Ad Nauseam again. Do you have some study or reference to point to this, or is it merely opinion?


... when auto companies are deliberately pushing them because they allow the companies to skirt CAFE emission standards ...
Ad Nauseam again because this simply isn’t true. Take Pennsylvania for instance. SUVs aren’t classified as a truck or put into a special class. They are lumped in with passenger cars for registration purposes, and as such, must perform to acceptable emissions standards just like a passenger car. My Explorer must pass the same emissions tests as someone else’s Toyota Echo. Why would the major car manufacturers retool ther plants just to make special SUVs for Pennsylvania? The answer is “They wouldn’t.” Every one of them roll off the line with the exact same emissions capabilities. Unless you can point me to an unbiased study to prove otherwise. . . .


... when they are not, in fact, safer, more efficient, or more reliable than, say, a less cool looking minivan.
Ad Nauseam again.

Some SUVs are not as safe as minivans. Most are on par with them. As you can see from the chart, SUVs range from 1 to 4 stars. Minivans range from 2 to 4 stars. Where’s the real difference in rollover safety there? NHTSA (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/Rollover/ratingsub_vcc.htm)

New model year 2004 ratings for rollover varied, with passenger cars generally scoring higher than SUVs. For passenger cars, the Mazda RX-8 received the top rating of five stars for rollover. For the light truck category, the highest scoring vehicles included the Dodge Durango 4x4, the Ford F-150, the Honda Pilot 4x4 and the Toyota Sienna, each receiving a 4-star rating for rollover. NHTSA also uses a five-star scale to rate a vehicle on its likelihood of rollover in a single vehicle crash. Source (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/announce/press/pressdisplay.cfm?year=2004&filename=pr26-04.html)

OK, let’s address the fuel use issue. Take a look at the MPG ratings on large cars, trucks, and minivans. A lot are either as bad (in the case of minivans) or worse (in the case of pick-up trucks) than SUVs. Another theory shot to hell. Fuel Economy Guide (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/fueleconomy.htm)

Straw Man - the author attacks an argument different from (and weaker than) the opposition's best argument.

You’re reliability comment is simply a Straw Man Argument.



If you're really interested in the subject, and not just burying your head in the sand to avoid SUV-induced guilt, read High and Mighty. It's in paperback now and an excellent history of the rise of the SUV.
I’m sure that is a nice and unbiased source. How about a reference source I don’t have to buy though? Something like I’ve taken the time to provide for you? Remember that perponderance of evidence is on the accuser. Although you’ve made the claims (accused) I’ve taken the time to thoroughly debunk you. How about defending your position and claims?



We all should try to balance what we want with what we need with what is good for us. The problem right now is that too many of us are choosing to look cool.
Why? If I want to spend $10,000 more than you “to look cool” why shouldn’t I be allowed to do it? (Please take into account the information that I’ve provided for you before responding Ad Nauseam again.)


Shoe Leather,

Instead of wasting your time whining about the quality of Backpacker's articles and giving suggestions to a bunch of people who don't care for the mag, why don't you write to the mag itself? I think that would be time better spent
Try and follow along with the conversation, big fella. The thread was created by Doctari to bitch about the magazine. I followed suit (staying on topic). However, you probably missed where I mentioned that I liked several things about it and said that I’d reserve judgment since I’m a new subscriber and have only received two issues.

The short answer is that I was engaging in conversation, and I was staying on topic. You were not. Why not make the same comment to all the others who were complaining too? You, sir, are a hypocrite. Have a nice day.

[smokymtnsteve]

LIVE SIMPLY so that others may SIMPLY LIVE...

[Percival]

OK, let’s address the fuel use issue. Take a look at the MPG ratings on large cars, trucks, and minivans. A lot are either as bad (in the case of minivans) or worse (in the case of pick-up trucks) than SUVs.
.....................

[Fiddleback]

"Beatniks" Beatniks? Haven't heard that word in a loonng time. Maybe age causes crankiness...umm, no, that would make me real cranky... Maybe it's a SAT vocabulary word...er, no, it doesn't sound like there would be any interest in the SAT...

Mileage...SUVs, minivans, etc. My minivan (8 year old Plymouth) gets 24-26 on the highway depending on the season (it's my winter vehicle). My day-to-day average is about 23. Hits almost 30 when I'm doing the speed limit in Yellowstone (which I always do:) ). Most new minivans are rated for the same mileage mine is. I suspect minivans as a class do much better than the class of SUVs when it comes to mileage and, therefore, are also less polluting (Shoe Leather Ex. - if the same emission standards apply to each vehicle, and one vehicle burns more fuel than the other (i.e., poorer mileage), then that vehicle pollutes more. Understand?)

SUVs are not evil anymore than beatniks are.

4-wheel drive... Lived on the east coast, Colorado and Alaska as well as some areas of Europe and Asia that had snowy highways. I ended four years in AK with a December drive out through the Yukon and than back into the Alaskan panhandle. Been living in western Montana for six years. Have NEVER driven a 4-wheel drive vehicle and have never got stuck in snow. 4-wheel drive is simply not needed for driving on snow. Anecdotal support: SAAB never made a 4-wheel drive (AWD) until its 2005 model year although Sweden is rumored to have a lot of snow. SAAB does, however, make a lot of front wheel drives...kinda like minivans have. :clap

"I don't want to get off on a rant here..." but my buttons finally got pushed and there's no good movies on tonight. What was the subject? Oh yeah, Backpacker...I've subscribed since '81 and, among the dozen or so mags I get, it's subscription is the most expensive. Go figure.

FB

For Shoe Leather Ex.: "Baby, you're the ginchiest!"
-- Kookie Burns; parking lot attendant, PI, and
ex-beatnik

[smokymtnsteve]

On the subject of SAABS..I used to have a 1964 SAAB 95 Wagon...It originally had the 3 cyclinder 2 stroke engine..I swapped it over to the Ford Industrial V-4,,the engine that Saab started using in '65 ...talk about a car that would go anywhere.. go in the snow...mud, you could roll them over ..had a big flat top you could sleep up there ...wished I had never gotten rid of it...and it got over 30 MPG.

[Alligator]

Everyone and their brother can afford a $25,000+ vehicle, gas to drive it, and insurance? I guess our economy is doing better than some presidential candidates would have you believe. What are the percentages of new cars sold, let’s say in the last 5 years, that were SUVs?

Ad Nauseam again. Do you have some study or reference to point to this, or is it merely opinion?.

25-30% all vehicles sold in the US.
ABCnews (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/business/US/suv_sales_CSM_040524.html)
24% of vehicles last year.
GM (http://www.gm.com/automotive/vehicle_shopping/suv_facts/200_choice/3_market_share.html)

The GM information shows that the percentage of new SUV's sold in 2003 (24%)was 2.4 times the percentage of new SUV's sold in 1994 (10%). So everybody who replaced their 9 year old SUV came back with their brother (and near 1/2 the time their mother) and they all bought SUV's.

I believe that Jester2000 errs in mistakenly linking emissions to this legislation
CAFE-Corporate Average Fuel Economy. (http://www.ita.doc.gov/td/auto/cafe.html)

Here's a link for CAFE trends since 1978. Follow the link Historical Summary of Fuel Economy Performance at this page. CAFE trends. (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/CAFEData.htm#)
Notice the nearly flat line for light trucks.



Some SUVs are not as safe as minivans. Most are on par with them. As you can see from the chart, SUVs range from 1 to 4 stars. Minivans range from 2 to 4 stars. Where’s the real difference in rollover safety there? NHTSA (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/Rollover/ratingsub_vcc.htm)
Source (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/announce/press/pressdisplay.cfm?year=2004&filename=pr26-04.html)

There is a difference between safe and rollover resistance rating, which is what the chart at the link illustrates. First though, let's discuss the range. Range as a measure sucks, because it simply represents the lowest and highest observations. There need not be any other observations near them. If you look at the chart you referenced, vans range from 2 (almost three) to 4, while SUV's range solidly at 1 to to even with vans at 4. So more appropriately, the vans have a better rating on the low end. You will get almost three stars with a van. But what you chose to ignore was that while the average chance of rollover for a van was about 22%, it was 27% in the SUV. In terms of rollover safety, vans appear to be safer on average.


OK, let’s address the fuel use issue. Take a look at the MPG ratings on large cars, trucks, and minivans. A lot are either as bad (in the case of minivans) or worse (in the case of pick-up trucks) than SUVs. Another theory shot to hell. Fuel Economy Guide (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/fueleconomy.htm)

Some are bad some are not. The hypothesis is not proved either way. You need some measure of average minivan economy and average SUV economy. If you wish to prove him wrong, find a clearer source.

For new car buyers, consider a hybrid SUV.
Increased demand for hybrid SUV (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5136654/)
Perhaps Ford will advertise them in Backpacker. :D Does Toyota advertise the Prius there?

[Twofiddy]

backpacker magazine is a business.

it makes money by selling advertisements to companys who want to reach the readers.

If you are a hard core mountain climbing hill billy ass go getter who would like to re-create the adventures of that lad in the book INTO THE WILD that is great!!

Unfortunatly you are not the target audience who supports NISSAN, FORD, JEEP, and TOYOTA with a new car purchase every day in America.

Who supports these companies. Amatures. People who sit in suburbia and dream about being out doing the hard core activities. Let them read there magazine on the ****ter in the morning, put on there trail runners with there office casual wear, and drive there SUV into the office. Right now they are making the world go around and they are saving our sham of an economy. They are the target reader of backpacker because those people spend more money than anyone else.

Now I do agree that backpacker should take a more environmentally friendly approach and persuading these people to buy say a SUBARU over an EXKURSION MONSTER TRUCK because it is better for the enviroment, and they need to show case companies who use enviro friendly packaging and shipping techniques like paying for cardboard boxes to be broken down and shipped back to be re-used again before recycling.

Dont blame backpacker. Blame John Q Hiker

[Toolshed]

Sadly, Backpacker is not marketed much toward hard core backpackers (at least not like it was in the good old days where the issues had numbers on them, like #1...#40....)

I see BP as being marketed 80% to those who might have an interest in backpacking and those who might get out once in a while (weekend warriors), with expendable budgets (disposable income) and more - But less than 20 % to those hard core hikers who spend all of their time thinking about the trail and are more concerned with hiking than with gear.

I just got the new issue last night (July?) and as I read through it I am becoming more dismayed that I seemingly cannot tell editorial content from advertisement (ad nauseum).

All the foldout crap advertising SUVs (jeeps & dodges IIRC) and chevy trucks as well as the sex potion works well as I do remember these ads and how crappy they are.

I see Backpacker becoming metrosexual. IMMHO BP is marketed towards younger folks who want appearance over experience and is trying to compete with Outside rag for members (unless Rodale owns both) Which is why the Eds allow such advertising content (to retain the same values as their readership)

[The Scribe]

Interesting "discussion"

For disclosure, I drive a 1994 Ford Explorer, V6, five-speed standard. I wanted a Jeep Wrangler two years ago when I needed a car but it meant that if all five of us wanted to go somewhere, we would need two cars. Our other one is a Cavalier. Between camping, and hauling materials, a car (including a small Jeep) would not be practical.

My Explorer gets 24-26 on the highway.

Regarding 4WD, I have probably used it five times in the two plus years I have had it. And I live in Maine. Not Boonsville Maine, but it's still Maine.

What I find entirely amazing in this thread (mostly by Shoe Leather) is the "I do what I want and go to hell attitude." Isn't one of the major tennants of this website and a hiker creed in general (more for some than others) that we "LEAVE NO TRACE?"

As Smokey I believe said it, "live simply so others may simply live."

Yeah Shoe Leather, if you can afford the sticker, afford to insure the beast and keep it fed, yes you have a right to have it. What a country!!!! I wouldn't advocate for any other way.

At the risk of being called a 'Beatnik' (I am 46 by the way and my entire family would laugh themselves into coronaries if they knew someone called me one), Conspicious Consumption may make you feel cool at a traffic light or amongst your friends but it doesn't do anything to ensure our survival tomorrow.

Do you LIKE spending over $2 for gas? I don't. I don't know how old you are Shoe Leather but were you around in the early 70's when our thirst for gas gave OPEC the idea to squeeze our canolies till we said UNCLE? I'm not saying any of the stuff Detroit or Japan made in response to that was cool, but it was the right thing to do.

Shoe Leather, if you believe in "Leave No Trace" on the trail, or at least doing what's right in regards to the environment on and around a trail, why wouldn't you do it other aspects of your life? Do you leave all the lights on in your house simply because you can afford your electric bill? Leave your gas grill on 24/7 cause its only $8.50 to refill it at BJ's?

Inquiring minds want to know.

pcm

[A-Train]

I thought it was pretty funny that National Geographic Adventure mag ran that lovely section on the Triple Crown but that ironically enough, on the other side of the center fold out was an ad for an SUV. One side with lots of info on how to enjoy the AT and the other side on how to help ruin the natural world we love. But as I said, and many others have agreed, most of those mags aren't what serious outdoors lovers enjoy to read.

Shoe Leather- I'm not sure why you're calling me a hipocrite. I certainly never said you were wrong for talking about the mag, and I'm well aware that was the original topic. I just said there was little point to wasting your time complaining about parts of the mag (which you did), instead of doing something constructive, like bringing it to the attention of the mag itself. Just a suggestion.

Unlike PCM, I could give a horses behind what you do with your life and the choices you make. If you want to come on to a hiking website and brag about your gas guzzling vehicle then that is your human right to. Have a ball, i'm out of here.

[The Scribe]

Yeah Shoe Leather, if you can afford the sticker, afford to insure the beast and keep it fed, yes you have a right to have it. What a country!!!! I wouldn't advocate for any other way.
pcm
And I suppose that goes for bragging about it on WB as well. Drive on. And contrary to what some might believe, I didn't lose a minute's sleep about how he lives his life.

pcm

[Shoe Leather Express]

The GM information shows that the percentage of new SUV's sold in 2003 (24%)was 2.4 times the percentage of new SUV's sold in 1994 (10%). So everybody who replaced their 9 year old SUV came back with their brother (and near 1/2 the time their mother) and they all bought SUV's.
Thank you for the links. I suppose the phrase "everybody and their brother is buying one" could applyt then. An interesting fact I noticed on that site is the sentence "SUVs now represent nearly 12 percent of all registered vehicles here in the U.S." At nearly 12% it's hardly the dilema some people would have you believe though. This is, of course, my opinion only.



There is a difference between safe and rollover resistance rating, which is what the chart at the link illustrates.
Exactly. Since the rollover factor is the biggest issue touted by anti-SUV folks it's the one I covered.



Range as a measure sucks, because it simply represents the lowest and highest observations. There need not be any other observations near them.
Agreed, but I don't have all day to research information. It did it's job to refute his claim without having to find vehicle model by vehicle model information.



In terms of rollover safety, vans appear to be safer on average.
I never disputed that fact. Not all minivans score as well as some SUVs though. This is why I also posted the alternate source on rollovers. Some are better, some are the same, and some are worse. Simply saying that they roll easier than minivans (which he didn't do, I know) is misleading. Saying on average they roll easier is pretty much true.



Some are bad some are not. The hypothesis is not proved either way. You need some measure of average minivan economy and average SUV economy. If you wish to prove him wrong, find a clearer source.
There is no clearer source. That chart has the MPG for every vehicle made. Contrast and compare them. I posted the information only to debunk what he said and it has done that.

[Twofiddy]

Interesting "discussion"

For disclosure, I drive a 1994 Ford Explorer

pcm


Since you considered a Jeep Purchase, I wanted to let you know that among the Jeep crowd what you drive is called an EXPLODER!!

After that thing bites the dust shop for an XJ!!

We own a 1999 2 door automatic that will get 29-31 mpg on the highway when it is empty with one person driving. Not bad for a Jeep.


What is my point here in bringing this up??

JEEP QUIT MAKING THE JEEP XJ because it was in production for 17 years and went through three very very very minor make overs in that time. It was probably the best production run of any family capable SUV or as the used to be called, Station Wagons, that has ever any will ever exist. It was not cool any more to drive a Jeep that had what looked like 20 year old technology.

However when you look at what has replaced it and the idea the the readers of Backpacker buy that replacement, it only makes sense. Bring out a new solution to and old problem and it must be a better solution. It looks shiny, it has chrome, and it has a three page fold out ad in backpacker showing my gear in the back seat. It must be for me since it is in Backpacker so now I need one.

Needless to say, have a fender bender and it will cost you $5000 and need 10 replacement plastic parts to fix the problem. The old XJ can be repaired for about $500 and it needs one or two metal parts to fix the problem.

IT IS ALL ABOUT HAVING SOMETHING NEW AND COOL!!!


:banana

[Twofiddy]

T
Exactly. Since the rollover factor is the biggest issue touted by anti-SUV folks it's the one I covered.




Has any one ever considered that 90% of the people out there who roll there SUV have probably totaled another car in there life.

PEOPLE WHO ROLL SUV's ARE PEOPLE WHO DONT KNOW HOW TO FREAKING DRIVE!!

It is kind a like a person who cuts off there foot with a lawn mower.

Dont stick your foot under the mower and you wont have a problem.

Dont fall asleep at wheel of SUV, dont swerve to miss a deer, or another car, dont drive to fast into a curve, and you wont roll your SUV.

I HOPE THE JUDGE THROWS THAT $369,000,000 JUDGEMENT out of court for that B1TCH that rolled her Ford Exploder and is now paralized. It is not Fords fault!! They should send her a bill for the expenses for the trail and give her a free life time membership to an SUV driving school!!

:banana

[Red Hat]

Several months ago I was ready to cancel my subscription. I was tired of articles about hiking all over the world, places that I probably will never see, since I am not a millionaire. But the past couple of issues have been devoted to hiking in the US and Canada. I really enjoyed reading about some trails that I did not know, and I look forward to getting out and hiking some of them. There were even a couple of pages and photos about the AT!

I was offended by the advertisement, but hey, they have to sell ads... Anyway, for the time being, I'll keep my subscription coming.

[kglo]

Not a damned one of you beatniks have given a valid arguement against SUVs. Not even your environmental arguement is valid. For as many articles you post supporting your claim, there are as many out there to refute it. Hell, the current opinion of the scientific community is that were headed for an ice age, not a green house.

Interesting, throwing out the arguments of others as gross generalizations...with one of your own.

I am one of said scientists. In the past 3 years that I have worked on climate change, I have never been convinced that we are in anything but a global warming -- and a RAPID one at that.

Ice age, huh? Not in our lifetime. Curious to know your sources on that.

[Hikerhead]

I've heard the same thing about the earth getting colder, not hotter.

Wish I could tell you where I heard or read that......

Lets get DebW on here to tell us what she knows.

[SGT Rock]

Just a thought...

Haven't we been generally in a warming period since the end of the last ice age? I mean gee, global warming started thousands of years ago and it could be considered good for us today that it did. I guess if Neanderthal man had weather scientists back then maybe they would have thought to outlaw fire because the emissions could be causing the climate change they were seeing back then. Just because there is global warming doesn't mean that SUVs did it, unless of course we can find ancient SUVs from the neolithic period and that might support the theory.

Anyway, I saw the theory about the warming leading to an Ice Age formation too, I think that is the basis of the movie "The Day After Tommorrow", I think it was on Discovery Channel a few years back. But then again, I also heard a scientist explaining how the great flood in the bible was a bunch of gysers shooting water from the ground like Yosemity, and now all the water is in space or something. They made a movie about that too :D

BTW I still consider that TV information bad too. Just because there is a theory about the next ice age, or global warming from the NeolithicSUV doesn't make it true unless it is proven.

[smokymtnsteve]

I believe in ROCK AND ROLL!

[SGT Rock]

Me too, but it won't cause an Ice Age or Global Warming. Just hearing loss. Right Steve.

[smokymtnsteve]

huH??? COULD YOU SPEAK UP PLEASE :D

[Needles]

That's the problem with a Miata, you can only have one friend.

And they're great in the snow.

And you can get a canoe on top.

Sorry Needles, I happen to like both cars, especially the Coopers, but you're not winning me over with that.

Yes, but I have had as many as 4 people in my Miata at once, and I refuse to live anywhere that gets enough snow for that to become a deciding factor in what I drive, and while I haven't had a canoe on top of my Miata I have carried a 12' sit on top kayak in it before.

And before you feel the need to ask, even though it doesn't have a backseat intimate relations are possible in a Miata, like I said in my last post in this thread, it isn't pretty, but it is possible. :)