View Full Version : Graffiti
Lemni Skate
05-09-2009, 05:53
I'm going to post one of my pet peeves. There is really nothing to be done about it so I'm just letting off steam.
I HATE graffiti in shelters (and on signs and other things along the trail). I don't really consider this a conservation thing as the shelters aren't natural, but I know how much work someone has put into the shelters and the graffiti seems to be disrespectful of the builders. AND it always snaps me out of my nature trance right back into civilization.
There are registers in the shelter in which we can write and it's pretty much anything goes. So I just don't understand people's desires to write on the shelter itself.
Graffiti on signs is even more irritating.
fiddlehead
05-09-2009, 06:15
It is another form of pollution.
To me it's not as bad as sound pollution or trash or black smoke pouring out of vehicles.
I sort of look at graffiti like those car racers who have graffiti splashed all over their cars and suits and stuff.
Up to them...................... Pretty ugly but it doesn't really bother me.
I guess it's easier to close your eyes than your ears, nose or mouth (breathing)
Homer&Marje
05-09-2009, 08:03
It's funny how the same people who bitch about how nasty shelters are and don't want to stay at them are the same people who will complain about the graffiti on the shelters.
Don't like it? Don't look at it.....don't stay there.....walk on past.
Shelters are an ugly box in the woods already. And I love them. Graffiti has been around in the human culture for thousands and thousands of years.
Roman gladiators used to carve pictures of themselves and their names on the walls of the Colosseum underground. Egyptians carved hieroglyphics on EVERYTHING. Don't ever go exploring old caves... the things those horrible people did to the wall 30,000 years ago might take you OUT OF NATURE too much.
Graffiti is HUMAN NATURE. I can't believe this argument is coming up again. Gonna be another fire storm for sure.
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TrippinBTM
05-09-2009, 09:41
Shelters are an ugly box in the woods already. And I love them. Graffiti has been around in the human culture for thousands and thousands of years.
Roman gladiators used to carve pictures of themselves and their names on the walls of the Colosseum underground. Egyptians carved hieroglyphics on EVERYTHING. Don't ever go exploring old caves... the things those horrible people did to the wall 30,000 years ago might take you OUT OF NATURE too much.
Graffiti is HUMAN NATURE.
I agree. It's cool to see the old ones, but for some reason people look down on the new stuff (need I mention Cubby 08?). I say it's alright, just as long as it's not on the trees, cuz that ain't cool. But in the shelter? Just good reading material. As Ed Abbey would call it, "the voice of the people" (mainly referring to bathroom grafitti, but same thing).
Homer&Marje
05-09-2009, 09:44
I agree. It's cool to see the old ones, but for some reason people look down on the new stuff (need I mention Cubby 08?). I say it's alright, just as long as it's not on the trees, cuz that ain't cool. But in the shelter? Just good reading material. As Ed Abbey would call it, "the voice of the people" (mainly referring to bathroom grafitti, but same thing).
I agree that I would prefer the trees be left alone but out west there are carvings on trees from local native americans that have been followed as maps of the woods for centuries.
White blazes are graffiti just so everyone knows. That makes purists the enjoyers of more graffiti than anyone:D HA!
A few weeks ago someone spray painted a giant phallus on the info board at the parking lot on 225. The lack of creativity was sickening:mad:
There is really nothing to be done about it so I'm just letting off steam.
There are things which can be done about it and more should be done. You have done something by making known to others how you feel about this issue. I'm not crazy about recurring threads since I'd rather see articles which are repeatedly linked or bumped by commenting upon them, but this is one I don't mind seeing every season.
I HATE graffiti in shelters (and on signs and other things along the trail). I know how much work someone has put into the shelters and the graffiti seems to be disrespectful of the builders.
Seems? It's more than disrespectful toward those who provide the recreational opportunity we call the AT. A significant portion of the labor is provided by volunteers. This form of appreciation strikes me as a slap in the face.
There are registers in the shelter in which we can write and it's pretty much anything goes. So I just don't understand people's desires to write on the shelter itself.
Graffiti on signs is even more irritating.
I don't know that "anything goes" is what's intended by maintaining organizations when they provide these registers, but what's written there not infrequently shows about as much restraint as exhibited by people who deface shelters, signage and beech trees on public property.
I sort of look at graffiti like those car racers who have graffiti splashed all over their cars and suits and stuff.
Up to them...................... Pretty ugly but it doesn't really bother me.
Bad analogy. Those who own the cars and other items you mention make a choice which is theirs to make for legitimate reasons including recognizing those who financially support them who then become known to race enthusiasts.
The AT isn't a motor sports race track. Visitors to public lands traversed by the AT seek an entirely different experience.
People who feel the need to express themselves with graffiti on these public lands should use their bodies, clothing and packs as their canvas where they have a right to put it. I might not like what I see, but I'd probably walk by them without comment although I would have that right.
Don't like it? Don't look at it.
I have taken issue with your statements on this subject before. Had I nothing better to do with my time, I would continue to respond to them until I take my last breath, but I have better things to do with my time. You shouldn't expect anything more from me this weekend other than what immediately follows.
Graffiti has been around in the human culture for thousands and thousands of years.
What you say is so, but that doesn't mean it's welcome on public or private property along the AT or that people who visit it are invited to share their artwork with other visitors who may not appreciate it and may even find it offensive.
If this artwork is really contributing something of value to society, put it in a museum where everyone can see it. Otherwise, display it on your own property or in your own home.
Graffiti is HUMAN NATURE.So is urinating. Shelters aren't an appropriate place for it either.
Homer&Marje
05-09-2009, 12:22
So is urinating. Shelters aren't an appropriate place for it either.
But a tree of the side of the trail is? Your logic is skewed. Tear down every shelter and you'll stop the trend. That would be a shame for those who enjoy the three walls and a roof sometimes.
Don't care what's on the walls of a box in the middle of the woods. Again. Don't like it? Don't look at it....and walk on by.
Lemni Skate
05-09-2009, 13:32
The issue for me is respecting property...even public property. People give up a lot of time to build a shelter. Some people work their whole lives and when they die they have a little bit left to will to the ATC or one of the clubs and that pays for the shelter. Some of us pay dues and make other donations and then somebody defaces it. It doesn't matter whether I like shelters or not. If you want to write all over a shelter then buy some land, build a shelter on it and have at it. The it's human nature argument would mean we should tolerate people putting graffiti on anything. Why don't we just put it on your car, the local church, the local school, the rim of the Grand Canyon, or the White House?
Like I said, there's not much to do about it, but if I'm helping in a small way to finance the building of the shelters, I think it's okay for me to say I don't like the graffiti.
Next time I see somebody doing it, I'm going to ask them if I can write all over their tent or backpack.
Alaskanhkr23
05-09-2009, 13:46
As a graphic artist myself,I dislike How people draw,paint,carve things in the shelters,wiley is all carved up and drawn on.Why the need to do these things beats me,but i guess the people need attention
Pedaling Fool
05-09-2009, 16:20
But a tree of the side of the trail is? Your logic is skewed...
Keep digging that hole:rolleyes:
turtle fast
05-09-2009, 16:43
Graffiti has no place on the shelters or on the landscape itself. Yes, I have seen the historical graffiti from the late 1800s and the 1910s carved on mountain top rocks, but was not the trail established to combine oneself with the WILDERNESS as much unspoiled as possible? To protect the area for future generations? I just love to see the giant marijuana leaf on a trail shelter along with male and female anatomy on the walls. Get real people....leave the shelters alone and especially the natural landscape. I hated to see spraypainted graffiti on the rock ledges by the NOC...the only ones and NEW!!!
Those who don't have a problem with graffiti at shelters or on trail signs, or worse yet contribute to said graffiti, should be consistent.
They should also not mind when someone "tags" their own cars or their homes.
Someone spray painting or carving on a building, vehicle, sign, or anything else that doesn't legally and solely belong to them is a criminal act. Unless of course they have the express written consent of the owner(s).
In the case of shelters, the owners would be a combination of the maintaining trail club that built and maintains it, in tandem with the landowner which in most cases is a governmental unit.
In the case of their homes or vehicles, that would be the shelter graffiti vandals and their apologists themselves. Y'all gonna give me permission to "tag" your stuff? :rolleyes:
Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 19:03
A few weeks ago someone spray painted a giant phallus on the info board at the parking lot on 225. The lack of creativity was sickening:mad:
The lack of creativity with the shelter graffiti is sickening. All it is is someone writing there names.
Defacing something that does not belong to you and something that people work hard to build, whether you like them or not, is disrespectful. Walk by? Still have to see it when I walk by. It isnt art! Profanity and genitals are not art. So if you walk up on someone spray painting a shelter built by the Hardcore crew, you wouldnt say anything??
Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 19:05
White blazes are graffiti just so everyone knows.
They are blazes!!! That is why they are called blazes!!! They arent called white graffiti.
do you suppose that the Native Americans were angry with their brothers when they scribed their names "history" on the rock walls in the west. I mean really ... what would we know about ancient tribes if it weren't for their "graffiti". What will men of the future know about us "hikers" hundreds of years from now. Just think maybe one day your great-great-great grandson/daughter will walk through a small park in the middle of town and see your name carved into a tree or on a log from a fallen shelter and say "THAT WAS MY GREAT_GREAT_GREAT GRANDFATHER/GRANDMOTHER!"
My husband carved our initials on an old oak in the park behind the Youth Museum on Paulsen Street in Savannah in 1984 when were first started dating. I went back there 8 years ago, after he died. The tree was gone, he is gone ... don't comdemn someone for creating "memories", it maybe all someone has left of a wonderful experience. After all, if it wasn't for the graffiti, how could some of the hikers prove they were ever there.
Lone Wolf
05-09-2009, 21:14
I'm going to post one of my pet peeves. There is really nothing to be done about it so I'm just letting off steam.
I HATE graffiti in shelters (and on signs and other things along the trail). I don't really consider this a conservation thing as the shelters aren't natural, but I know how much work someone has put into the shelters and the graffiti seems to be disrespectful of the builders. AND it always snaps me out of my nature trance right back into civilization.
There are registers in the shelter in which we can write and it's pretty much anything goes. So I just don't understand people's desires to write on the shelter itself.
Graffiti on signs is even more irritating.
i don't see the big deal.
They are blazes!!! That is why they are called blazes!!! They arent called white graffiti.Chaco, don't sweat homer, he's just a poor lonely troll looking for attention. All you end up doing is having a battle of wits with an unarmed person. :rolleyes:
Don't sweat the small stuff, and this definitely falls in that category
fiddlehead
05-09-2009, 21:39
T
Bad analogy. Those who own the cars and other items you mention make a choice which is theirs to make for legitimate reasons including recognizing those who financially support them who then become known to race enthusiasts.
The AT isn't a motor sports race track. Visitors to public lands traversed by the AT seek an entirely different experience.
Ok, how about this one: I live in a country where aprox 70% of the 65 million people get around on motorcycles. Most all of them are between 100 and 175 cc and have mufflers and are quiet.
About 1% of the people (mostly westerners) drive big Harley Davidson type motorcycles with no mufflers (or at least it doesn't sound like they have any)
It is pollution.
Funny, the natives here call them little dick bikes.
Maybe the people who leave graffiti on shelter walls are little dick people. (or kids)
Anyway, they are both pollution.
Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 21:43
Chaco, don't sweat homer, he's just a poor lonely troll looking for attention. All you end up doing is having a battle of wits with an unarmed person. :rolleyes:
Hahaha nice:D
Lone Wolf
05-09-2009, 21:43
shelters are pollution. humans are pollution. it ain't no biggie
Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 21:45
shelters are pollution. humans are pollution. it ain't no biggie
Funny thing is, you make a great point.
Hahaha nice:DSee ya next weekend at TD's. :banana
Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 21:46
See ya next weekend at TD's. :banana
Yea come over to Team Chacopak and have an adult beverage with us.
Lone Wolf
05-09-2009, 21:47
Funny thing is, you make a great point.
i always do
Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 21:48
i always do
Yea you do you bad a** mofo.:D
Yea come over to Team Chacopak and have an adult beverage with us.Thanks for the invite, Chaco. I'll stop by for a visit, but pass on the adult beverage. I quit drinking after getting entirely too soused at the April Fool's Bash in Franklin. Apparently, I spent a fair amount of time asking folks to scratch my balls. No nned to repeat that again. :rolleyes:
Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 21:51
Thanks for the invite, Chaco. I'll stop by for a visit, but pass on the adult beverage. I quit drinking after getting entirely too soused at the April Fool's Bash in Franklin. Apparently, I spent a fair amount of time asking folks to scratch my balls. No nned to repeat that again. :rolleyes:
Are you friggin serious?? I dont care who ya are thats funny right there! Either way I look forward to meeting ya. You wont be able to miss us, we will be in Billville:D
The lack of creativity with the shelter graffiti is sickening. Defacing something that does not belong to you and something that people work hard to build, whether you like them or not, is disrespectful.
Creativity is in the eyes of the beholder, even the most creative graffiti is still vandalism which is not a matter of opinion but rather the law which reflects the prevailing values of the AT's owners.
I mean really ... what would we know about ancient tribes if it weren't for their "graffiti". What will men of the future know about us "hikers" hundreds of years from now.
The difference is one of behavioral norms and communication methods. When William Clark carved on a tree upon reaching the Pacific Ocean, it was a different time and it may have been something of an official act claiming the Pacific Northwest for the United States just as were flags put on the moon.
The acts you seek to compare are not comparable because times have changed. Today we can go to libraries or online and read what's written to learn about the past.
My husband carved our initials on an old oak in the park... I went back there 8 years ago, after he died. The tree was gone, he is gone...
After all, if it wasn't for the graffiti, how could some of the hikers prove they were ever there.
You may have answered your own question. Hundreds of years from now those shelters will not likely be there just like your tree. They may or may not be replaced.
It would seem someone needs to point out the obvious. Take a digital camera to record where you visited for future reference. No one but you and maybe your family will likely care where you've been, but everyone with eyes to see is supposed to look the other way when they see these misguided attempts at immortality.
More than 10,000 people have hiked the AT. Besides, initials and a date don't prove someone was there any more than a 2000 miler certificate proves someone hiked the AT.
I didn't realize the topic had changed.
i don't see the big deal.
Would it be a big deal if someone spray-painted their name on your house? Your truck? Same thing IMHO.
Chaco Taco
05-09-2009, 23:38
Would it be a big deal if someone spray-painted their name on your house? Your truck? Same thing IMHO.
Not really.
Not really.
I'm guessing you mean it's not the same thing to you, rather than it wouldn't be a big deal if someone spray-painted his or her name on your house or vehicle. Then again, maybe you don't own the house where you live or your vehicle and it would be someone else's problem?
Maybe tomorrow would be a better time, but you should elaborate for those of us who don't grasp how you might arrive at such a conclusion.
...... The acts you seek to compare are not comparable because times have changed. Today we can go to libraries or online and read what's written to learn about the past........
and just where do you think they got the info - ancient hieroglyphics "graffiti!" I would rather go to the actual location and see it for myself (Mesa Verde). Don't believe everything you READ .... there is way to much "fiction" in libraries and more so online. SEEING is believing. Not to say that what the ancient Anasazi scribed on their walls were facts. Maybe there was some fiction writers there as well. It is in the eye of the beholder to determine the difference. I think Spikes graffiti should be used as an example ..... to show how a tortured mine works. Most may not see it yet but that man has made "history" on the trail this year. Spikes actions may very well be the straw that breaks the camels back and forces the GOV or whoever to try to "take control" of our beloved trail. Believe me ... you are not going to like it!
...... It would seem someone needs to point out the obvious. Take a digital camera to record where you visited for future reference. No one but you or your family will likely care where you've been, but everyone with eyes to see is supposed to look the other way when they see these misguided attempts at immortality.........
how many times have you read a journal where the hiker lost their camera or memory card? Pictures DO NOT last forever, but I assure you, barring a forest fire, that tree or log will last a very long time. It may take me a while but I am sure I could link to info where the police found a lost or dead person because they left some sort of identification carved, printed, painted or tied on a tree, a sign or some other trail object. In fact the ATC tells us to SIGN the registers because that is where they will look first when someone is missing.
I personally have not said anyone should look the other way. Quite the contrary please look and remember, whether you like seeing it or not, because you never know which of the "graffiti" will someday be important to you. Point-of-fact: the numerous Plaques and Memorials dedicated to past hikers or "children" who were lost/died on the trail. Are they "misguided attempts at immortality" - tell that to the mother of Little Ottie Powell - how about Audie Murphy's family. I suppose you also oppose hikers scattering the ashes of their beloved spouse along the trail. Maybe you would like to tell Stumpknocker to his face that he shouldn't have done that.... go on, I dare you! (by the time Stumpknocker meets me he is probably going to have a lot to say about my opinon - sorry - just speaking my mind)
Memories are memories. Regardless of the form they take. Pictures, memorials, ashes, GRAFFITI! BUT! if you remove any of the graffiti you have to remove all of it. The carvings, the ink, the paint, the flags, the plaques, the memorials, the ashes and even the BLAZES! Fair is fair. You will have a fight on your hands.
Homer&Marje
05-10-2009, 00:32
Thanks for the invite, Chaco. I'll stop by for a visit, but pass on the adult beverage. I quit drinking after getting entirely too soused at the April Fool's Bash in Franklin. Apparently, I spent a fair amount of time asking folks to scratch my balls. No nned to repeat that again. :rolleyes:
I'll keep my lack of wits. DH. You can remember what that stands for right hooch?
I suppose you also oppose hikers scattering the ashes of their beloved spouse along the trail.
No, I don't provided it's approved by the appropriate authorities. As for memorials along the AT some of which you mentioned, I believe they don't belong there, especially the more recent and obvious additions, but it's not my place to decide such issues.
It's not unreasonable to project into the future when there will no longer be a need for blazes. Hikers will be able to travel from Springer to Katahdin between uninterrupted memorials which line both sides of the AT as well as our highways. Baxter State Park and Pennsylvania's State Game Lands may be the last places to be despoiled by them, but there will be those who have no rest until private citizens are permitted to put their personal property there too.
As for the remainder of what you posted, your trolling is becoming obvious and more than a bit ridiculous.
Chaco Taco
05-10-2009, 00:45
I'm guessing you mean it's not the same thing to you, rather than it wouldn't be a big deal if someone spray-painted their name on your house or truck. Then again, maybe you don't own the house where you live or your vehicle and it would be someone else's problem?
Maybe tomorrow would be a better time, but you should elaborate for those of us who don't grasp how you might arrive at such a conclusion.
Do you own a shelter on the AT? Who does own a shelter on the AT? Little different than someone vandalising someones home or car
Do you own a shelter on the AT? Who does own a shelter on the AT? Little different than someone vandalising someones home or car.
I claim a minor interest in all of them same as you might. In addition, I belong to ATC and an AT-maintaining organization which owns a substantial interest in several, two of which I helped build. I am a resident of Pennsylvania and a property owner in the county where 1 of those shelters I mentioned is located.
I share ownership of my home with a financial institution. I don't own it outright and don't have a right to do whatever I want with it. There are many conditions with which I am expected to comply in order for me to be permitted to remain in my home. I accept them and comply with them.
Skyline answered your second question in an earlier post in the event you missed it and, like him, I see little, if any difference between vandalizing property along the AT in which ownership is shared and personal property whether shared or owned outright.
There was also quite a bit of spraypaint on the rocks up above Daleville. It was likely done by some stupid local kids who didn't know any better, just as there are organized hiking clubs all along the trail recklessly painting on the trees, littering signs, markers and other memorials, and building dirty little shacks in the woods that gather trash. They likely have no idea that what they are doing is destroying the wilderness experience of many hikers.
The analogy of painting someone's house or car just doesn't work...everybody knows who owns a particular house or car...we all collectively own the trail...it just ain't the same thing.
Lone Wolf
05-10-2009, 03:29
Would it be a big deal if someone spray-painted their name on your house? Your truck? Same thing IMHO.
nope. big difference
Lemni Skate
05-10-2009, 07:00
The analogy of graffiti on a shelter to other public property works fine.
You won't spray paint your local school or courthouse. You won't spray carve your name in the US Capitol. You hopefully won't even put graffiti on road signs. Somehow, because it's in the woods and there is no chance of being caught and charged, people do it.
I still say it's a sign of disrespect.
The only thing that's holding these people back from spray painting the Mona Lisa and the Taj Mahal is the guard.
In my opinion, the people who put graffiti in shelters would not hesitate to trash your house if they KNEW they wouldn't get caught.
vamelungeon
05-10-2009, 07:04
There's a place here in the Jefferson National Forest called Bear Rock. A big rock formation/cliff with a great view. It's one of the places you take visitors to the area to show off the natural beauty EXCEPT every idiot who can afford Krylon has spray painted their name or a penis or whatever all over the rocks. It really uglifies a beautiful spot, and I just really don't understand it.
My mother used to tell me when I was a kid something like: "Fool's names and monkey's faces are often seen in public places" meaning don't go around carving and painting your name on stuff or attracting attention to yourself in public.
I've never carved or painted my name on anything that doesn't belong to me. If you have, please explain why you did because I don't get it.
I'll keep my lack of wits. DH. You can remember what that stands for right hooch?Excuse me, the adults are talking here, none of which addressed you.
Homer&Marje
05-10-2009, 08:00
Excuse me, the adults are talking here, none of which addressed you.
Why don't you try and participate in a discussion on hand instead of acting like a child and taking pathetic cheap shots.
"Your only young once but you can be immature forever."
Wouldn't it be interesting if we WERE allowed to carve our names in the state house and government buildings of our country....imagine the names that would be on the steps of the US Capital building or the Lincoln Memorial.
Bet there would be some good names in front of the Federal Courthouses :D
saimyoji
05-10-2009, 08:26
There's a place here in the Jefferson National Forest called Bear Rock. A big rock formation/cliff with a great view. It's one of the places you take visitors to the area to show off the natural beauty EXCEPT every idiot who can afford Krylon has spray painted their name or a penis or whatever all over the rocks. It really uglifies a beautiful spot, and I just really don't understand it.
Bake Oven Knob is the same. Its not hikers that do it though, mostly, its the ******* locals who go there to party, leave their beer cans and cigarette butts all over the place.
fiddlehead
05-10-2009, 09:37
One of the most disgusting forms of graffiti that i've ever seen is the cemetery near Paris where Jim Morrison is buried.
Anyone else seen this in person?
I'll keep my lack of wits. DH. You can remember what that stands for right hooch?
Why don't you try and participate in a discussion on hand instead of acting like a child and taking pathetic cheap shots.......Hypocrite.
Homer&Marje
05-10-2009, 10:38
Chaco, don't sweat homer, he's just a poor lonely troll looking for attention. All you end up doing is having a battle of wits with an unarmed person. :rolleyes:
See ya next weekend at TD's. :banana
Thanks for the invite, Chaco. I'll stop by for a visit, but pass on the adult beverage. I quit drinking after getting entirely too soused at the April Fool's Bash in Franklin. Apparently, I spent a fair amount of time asking folks to scratch my balls. No nned to repeat that again. :rolleyes:
Excuse me, the adults are talking here, none of which addressed you.
Hypocrite.
This is what you have contributed to the conversation. Anyone smell the troll in the room?
I'm not a hypocrite I'm being poked for a response....which I obliged too because I have actually a vested interest in the conversation....not your petty pathetic insults.
Chaco Taco
05-10-2009, 10:40
This is what you have contributed to the conversation. Anyone smell the troll in the room?
I'm not a hypocrite I'm being poked for a response....which I obliged too because I have actually a vested interest in the conversation....not your petty pathetic insults.
Wow let it go dude! Just move on:rolleyes:
Homer&Marje
05-10-2009, 10:46
Wow let it go dude! Just move on:rolleyes:
I can't let it go this website is everything to me and if I don't have everyones approval for my opinion than life is not worth living:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rol leyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rol leyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rol leyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rol leyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rol leyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::eek:
GFY's
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::eek:
I would have thought you above it.:rolleyes::D Creativity is in the eyes of the beholder. That's why it shouldn't be a determining factor in deciding whether graffiti is acceptable here or on the AT, nor should individuals who can't exercise self-control be entrusted with knives, paint, keyboards and smileys.
I remember a time when there was a limit on the number of characters. Give some people unlimited smilies, they'll put 28 of them on monitors all over the world.
Chaco Taco
05-10-2009, 16:32
Anyone smell the troll in the room?
not your petty pathetic insults.
And this is what you said
warraghiyagey
05-10-2009, 16:34
Everybody playin nice today?:sun
Chaco Taco
05-10-2009, 16:35
Everybody playin nice today?:sun
Warraghiyagey, he is bein to me.:p
Chaco Taco
05-10-2009, 16:36
mean to me, oops:cool:
warraghiyagey
05-10-2009, 16:39
UNCOOL!:mad:
How can anybody be mean to sweet innocent Chaco. . . ?:)
Chaco Taco
05-10-2009, 16:41
UNCOOL!:mad:
How can anybody be mean to sweet innocent Chaco. . . ?:)
He told me to go ef myself and I am so not in the mood.
saimyoji
05-10-2009, 16:46
He told me to go ef myself and I am so not in the mood.
that's his way of making a pass at you...;)
Homer&Marje
05-10-2009, 17:55
He told me to go ef myself and I am so not in the mood.
I would never say that to you Chaco. We agree on guns:D
I thought this thread was about graffiti.... you people told me it wasn't about me...yet here you are....keep on keepin on :-?
I'm sorry to get back to the subject and mess up you guys fun, but while I find most graffiti distasteful, there is one that I like very much. Can't remember excatly where, but it is on the AT in NY state (I think after Bear mtn), there is an American flag painted with the inscription below it saying, "In memory of Sept 11, 2001" I was there on July 5th and, I guess in a patriotic mood. It just struck an accord with me and I almost weld up with pride. I thought, damn right!!!!
Chaco Taco
05-10-2009, 17:56
GFY's
WHat is that then??
Chaco Taco
05-10-2009, 17:57
I'm sorry to get back to the subject and mess up you guys fun, but while I find most graffiti distasteful, there is one that I like very much. Can't remember excatly where, but it is on the AT in NY state (I think after Bear mtn), there is an American flag painted with the inscription below it saying, "In memory of Sept 11, 2001" I was there on July 5th and, I guess in a patriotic mood. It just struck an accord with me and I almost weld up with pride. I thought, damn right!!!!
Shenendoah Mtn???
Homer&Marje
05-10-2009, 17:59
Shenendoah Mtn???
Get Friendlier You guys?:rolleyes:
Chaco Taco
05-10-2009, 18:07
Get Friendlier You guys?:rolleyes:
HAHAHA ooooohh. I thought it was Go ef yourselves. My bad.
Phoenix7
05-10-2009, 18:09
I don't care for graffiti, but having originally come from New York I suppose I'm used to it. But back in the late '70s I was at the Rattle River shelter in NH, at the base of Mt. Moriah, and someone had carved a little dragon into the wood. I thought that was cool.
Homer&Marje
05-10-2009, 18:13
HAHAHA ooooohh. I thought it was Go ef yourselves. My bad.
I don't know how you misconstrued that:D What's funny...as a species and a sub niche culture in the hiking community. We bicker like hell over the internet and usually always have a good time in person.
Maybe it's better we get all the crap out of the way before an in person meeting:D
Just don't ever bring up my wife, Marje....who has never...and will never post on this web site, in a PM to me like other people like to do to get a response out of me. Let's just say when I'm actually mad about something....I won't respond. Most of the other times I'm just trying to have a good debate....learned it from my 6th grade teacher to always hit low first:rolleyes: Call it a character flaw.
Call it a character flaw.I don't think anyone here, myself included, is short on that. :o
Homer&Marje
05-10-2009, 19:40
I don't think anyone here, myself included, is short on that. :o
What's not said in jest is said in heated turmoil. Welcome to WB:p
Welcome to WB:pYou too, Noob. :rolleyes::p
Glad to see while I was busy on other things y'all solved once and for all the graffiti issue.;) All it takes is a dial-up modem and a few sharp minds!:rolleyes::D
Chaco Taco
05-11-2009, 11:32
You too, Noob. :rolleyes::p
You can both kiss my butt......:p:p:p
who cares:eek: about that!tree huggers.ky
Homer&Marje
05-11-2009, 18:23
You can both kiss my butt......:p:p:p
Only if your hiking faster and like to stop short:D I really...really hope that doesn't happen though.
I hike faster anyways:eek:
Nearly Normal
05-12-2009, 05:07
Seems to be human nature. People even pay to have someone draw on them.
Homer&Marje
05-20-2009, 05:32
I'm sure this is considered ok. Why? Because it was done by the NPS probably....not quoting a fact....just making a guess that it was put there officially.
Still Graffiti and still doesn't offend me.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/8/9/painted_boulder_entering_baxter_state_park-med.jpg
flemdawg1
05-20-2009, 11:23
HAHAHA ooooohh. I thought it was Go ef yourselves. My bad.
aka The Cheney.
Lone Wolf
05-20-2009, 11:58
I'm sure this is considered ok. Why? Because it was done by the NPS probably....not quoting a fact....just making a guess that it was put there officially.
Still Graffiti and still doesn't offend me.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/8/9/painted_boulder_entering_baxter_state_park-med.jpg
that's on private land
I'm sure this is considered ok. Why? Because it was done by the NPS probably....not quoting a fact....just making a guess that it was put there officially.
Still Graffiti and still doesn't offend me.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/8/9/painted_boulder_entering_baxter_state_park-med.jpg
The nearest National park is around a hundred miles away. It was done by a local -- probably practicing a constitutional right -- freedom of speech.
weary
Lemni Skate
05-20-2009, 15:02
Freedom of speech does not give you the right to pollute or to deface other people's property.
Slo-go'en
05-20-2009, 15:07
On my recent 400 mile hike in VA, I noticed that only the older shelters had graffiti. The worst were ones with easy road access. The newer, fancy shelters were free of graffiti. Hopefully, this means defacing shelters is a dying past time.
If the painting on the rock is in fact on private land and was created by its owner or with its owner's consent, then it's probably perfectly legal and may or may not be graffiti depending upon one's definition of the word. Even if on private land, it's still a statement intended for public viewing.
Some may consider this painting to accomplish exactly the opposite of it's intended purpose and it could be seen as something akin to "Do as I say, not as I do." Furthermore, it may serve to encourage others with less talent and time to test their own skills where it would be neither legal or welcome.
Phoenixdadeadhead
05-20-2009, 20:43
I thought I was weird, Ok I am weird but that is besides the point, every time I see graffiti on the trail it irks me, even if it is in the privy or on the shelter. Ironically I like Graffiti when done well, but there are places for all things and most of those things don't belong in the wilderness, but hey that is just my humble opinion
vamelungeon
05-20-2009, 20:47
Freedom of speech does not give you the right to pollute or to deface other people's property.
+1
That's the bottom line. Do what you will with your own stuff, but if something doesn't belong to you leave it alone. You don't have the right to do anything to something that isn't yours.
Homer&Marje
05-21-2009, 06:51
I know it is on private land. This is why I posted that picture. Because there is no uproar over it.
I have agreed in the past that the graffiti that is tasteless and offensive is not needed. But carving or writing names and dates or drawing interesting and non-offensive material can be quite appealing sometimes.
Even if this WAS on private land.....yet was offensive....people would be up in arms about it. But it's not offensive so everyone can make an "exception"
Just my thoughts. Feel free to disagree, But I still hold my grounds that marking our existence in a spot is human nature, not just graffiti.
Much to my surprise, I thought I might have found a small patch of agreement with Homer&Marge in that we both thought this sign to exhibit at least some attributes of graffiti. Homer's last post rendered clear that's about all the agreement there's apt to be until there's consistency within posts and from post-to-post.
I thought marking was something animals do to indicate their presence and territory to other animals. Aren't human beings superior to animals?
Just who do these people think they are to practice their art wherever they choose and judge what's appropriate for our viewing?
I hope Homer's not suggesting individuals who don't like laws have the right to modify them to suit their own desires, it's artists' prerogative to express themselves as they choose wherever they wish and if others are offended that's their problem, but it appears he's indicated this is his position.
I think like anything it has to be done tastefully, which is largely a matter of time, place, and occassion. If you lived 1000 or 10,000 years ago or more, its all good. If you have to sit at a wooden desk through 4 months of summer school while your friends are out playing baseball, carving just about anything into the desk that you can think of at 11 years old is fair game. On WB, after 6500 posts of electronic graffiti, what you say and how you say it doesn't matter so much. But in a shelter on the AT, when you are one of so many, you better have something meaningful and heartfelt. Still, better that than on a rock somewhere along the trail.
When I was in Alderney, on the Channel Islands, I read a note on an old fence that was left by a German sentry, lamenting a girl in France, as thousand died on that sad little island building the Atlantic Wall. Now that was graffiti worth doing. That was giving witness to the place and to the moment.
I saw a dolmen on the other side of the island. That was really something. But most people today should leave rocks the hell alone. I think you have to know your place in this world. Hiking should teach us that. Sometimes the best mark to leave is none.
http://www.fotosearch.com/photos-images/dolmen.html
Would it be a big deal if someone spray-painted their name on your house? Your truck? Same thing IMHO.
Not quite. Spraying LW's house offends mostly him. Spray painting public property offends hundreds (thousands) of the public owners.
Freedom of speech does not give you the right to pollute or to deface other people's property.
I suspect the rock is in the public right of way, so the "other people" are probably the citizens of the State of Maine.
My comment was an ironic reference to the "constitutional" rants of gun lovers in the tame eastern wildlands. I did not expect anyone to recognize the reference, but saying it made me feel better.
I think like anything it has to be done tastefully, which is largely a matter of time, place, and occassion. If you lived 1000 or 10,000 years ago or more, its all good. If you have to sit at a wooden desk through 4 months of summer school while your friends are out playing baseball, carving just about anything into the desk that you can think of at 11 years old is fair game. On WB, after 6500 posts of electronic graffiti, what you say and how you say it doesn't matter so much. But in a shelter on the AT, when you are one of so many, you better have something meaningful and heartfelt. Still, better that than on a rock somewhere along the trail.
When I was in Alderney, on the Channel Islands, I read a note on an old fence that was left by a German sentry, lamenting a girl in France, as thousand died on that sad little island building the Atlantic Wall. Now that was graffiti worth doing. That was giving witness to the place and to the moment.
I saw a dolmen on the other side of the island. That was really something. But most people today should leave rocks the hell alone. I think you have to know your place in this world. Hiking should teach us that. Sometimes the best mark to leave is none.
http://www.fotosearch.com/photos-images/dolmen.html
HMMM. Am I violating someone's copyright if I take a photo of the painted rock? And selling it? For profit no less?
Weary
cowboy nichols
05-21-2009, 17:55
In a couple of hundred years it will be old art .
superman
05-21-2009, 18:12
For what it's worth
I traveled through Europe in the 60s by train. The trains were WWII vintage but in amazing condition. I observed people of all ages traveling on them. Teens and younger traveled without chaperones. There was no graffiti. There was no vandalism. I went back last year and it was mostly the same. I discussed this with an older German and his opinion was that the only problem they've had was due to foreign youths. I didn't ask him if the foreign youths were American. I see the whole graffiti thing as just bad parenting regardless of what country you’re in.
Homer&Marje
05-21-2009, 18:16
Much to my surprise, I thought I might have found a small patch of agreement with Homer & Marge in that we both thought this sign to exhibit at least some attributes of graffiti. Homer's last post rendered clear that's about all the agreement there's apt to be until there's consistency within posts and from post-to-post.
I thought marking was something animals do to indicate their presence and territory to other animals. Aren't human beings superior to animals?
Just who do these people think they are to practice their art wherever they choose and judge what's appropriate for our viewing?
I hope Homer's not suggesting individuals who don't like laws have the right to modify them to suit their own desires, it's artists' prerogative to express themselves as they choose and if others are offended that's their problem, but it appears he has indicated this to be his position.
We are not much more sophisticated than animals except for written and spoken language. Other than that....we're pretty similar. Sorry you feel yourself so above everyone and everything else....sorry that your better.
What gives you the right to hike through someones town that hates hikers. What gives you the right to walk through someone else s backyard just because it is the only way to your precious trail.
People do a lot of things that other people disagree with. Human nature. Artists and musicians practice usually where they want and can.
My statement before was that the non offensive paintings, carvings, writings, drawings or sculptures are not generally subject to complaint because of their non offensive nature.
Note for future graffiti artists of all sorts....less offensive is more acceptable. Not to teetotaler Mayflower descendant models of Protestant perfectionism. But to most people.
You've indicated your position. Now find somewhere else to put it. This hole is full.
Homer&Marje
05-21-2009, 18:17
For what it's worth
I traveled through Europe in the 60s by train. The trains were WWII vintage but in amazing condition. I observed people of all ages traveling on them. Teens and younger traveled without chaperones. There was no graffiti. There was no vandalism. I went back last year and it was mostly the same. I discussed this with an older German and his opinion was that the only problem they've had was due to foreign youths. I didn't ask him if the foreign youths were American. I see the whole graffiti thing as just bad parenting regardless of what country you’re in.
Did you ever see the Berlin Wall? I have a piece of it with graffiti on it.
All this discussion about graffiti got me wondering. What does the word mean? I checked my dictionarys and don't find it so I guess it is a fairly late term. Where did it come from? Is there a synonym for it? And what about cave art in France or the American southwest? Do you suppose that when the chief saw it for the first time that he repremanded the "artist" for trashing the walls with his hand print, or did he congratulate him/her and say "someday you'll be famous? :rolleyes:
superman
05-21-2009, 20:09
Did you ever see the Berlin Wall? I have a piece of it with graffiti on it.
Not last summer.:)
Well, I wasn't happy with leaving it at that, so I googled the definition and what I found was that the term graffiti is derived from a greek term meaning "to write". But it goes much deeper in meaning than that. Lest I bore the reader with all that Mr. Google had to say, suffice it to say that 99.9% of the stuff referred to in this thread is not graffiti at all, but common vandalism. The painted rock in ME however would definitely qualify as graffiti as it is art in its own right.
Happy hiking. :sun
We don't use dictionarys here. We make up our own definitions to fit our individual opinions.
Czechtrecker
05-22-2009, 10:23
For what it's worth
I traveled through Europe in the 60s by train. The trains were WWII vintage but in amazing condition. I observed people of all ages traveling on them. Teens and younger traveled without chaperones. There was no graffiti. There was no vandalism. I went back last year and it was mostly the same. I discussed this with an older German and his opinion was that the only problem they've had was due to foreign youths. I didn't ask him if the foreign youths were American. I see the whole graffiti thing as just bad parenting regardless of what country you’re in.
When vacationing in Salzberg, Austria last year the only graffiti that I saw in the entire city was on a bridge abutment and all the words were in English. German is the native language although many locals speak some English. However the slang that was used would lead me to believe it was done by teens from the US. The naked torso of a woman and the penis could have been done by any nationality I guess.
In Germany the only graffiti I noticed were the initials USA with the S turned into a swastika. I did not visit Berlin though.
I did not notice much Graffiti in London either, not even on the Tube or its in its stations. I was mostly in the touristy areas though. Still, compared to any large US city, I would have to say it was pretty much graffiti free.
I guess Europeans are not as expressive as we are, or are just more respectful of public and private property.:-?
superman
05-22-2009, 12:14
When vacationing in Salzberg, Austria last year the only graffiti that I saw in the entire city was on a bridge abutment and all the words were in English. German is the native language although many locals speak some English. However the slang that was used would lead me to believe it was done by teens from the US. The naked torso of a woman and the penis could have been done by any nationality I guess.
In Germany the only graffiti I noticed were the initials USA with the S turned into a swastika. I did not visit Berlin though.
I did not notice much Graffiti in London either, not even on the Tube or its in its stations. I was mostly in the touristy areas though. Still, compared to any large US city, I would have to say it was pretty much graffiti free.
I guess Europeans are not as expressive as we are, or are just more respectful of public and private property.:-?
Thanks for posting. I also traveled in Sweden last summer. I saw no graffiti or vandalism. My son's Swedish father-in-law said that it happens some times but he referred to the perpetrators as "troubled people." He said it is more common in some of the cities with areas where immigrants live.
When vacationing in Salzberg, Austria last year the only graffiti that I saw in the entire city was on a bridge abutment and all the words were in English. German is the native language although many locals speak some English. However the slang that was used would lead me to believe it was done by teens from the US. The naked torso of a woman and the penis could have been done by any nationality I guess.
In Germany the only graffiti I noticed were the initials USA with the S turned into a swastika. I did not visit Berlin though.
I did not notice much Graffiti in London either, not even on the Tube or its in its stations. I was mostly in the touristy areas though. Still, compared to any large US city, I would have to say it was pretty much graffiti free.
I guess Europeans are not as expressive as we are, or are just more respectful of public and private property.:-?
I spent 2 weeks this fall in Zurich, Switzerland. There is graffiti all over the place. Shameful acutally. It is a beautiful city, but there is spraypaint everywhere. The culture has a very "boys will be boys" type attitude that makes it somewhat acceptable.