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Phoenixdadeadhead
05-20-2009, 18:37
I have been toying with the idea of a new project, and I would like to know what is the best kind of insulation for sleep systems, and why? Also, would you use the same insulation for a coat, and why?
Everyones opinion is welcome, and no answer is a wrong answer, as long as you tell me why your insulation suggestion is best in your opinion.
I would also like to hear the negatives on all insulations.

Chaco Taco
05-20-2009, 18:42
I have been toying with the idea of a new project, and I would like to know what is the best kind of insulation for sleep systems, and why? Also, would you use the same insulation for a coat, and why?
Everyones opinion is welcome, and no answer is a wrong answer, as long as you tell me why your insulation suggestion is best in your opinion.
I would also like to hear the negatives on all insulations.

If Im not mistaken most bags are synthetic or have goosedown. Alot of jackets are goosedown

Chaco Taco
05-20-2009, 18:44
If Im not mistaken most bags are synthetic or have goosedown. Alot of jackets are goosedown

Also, alot of jackets have fleece. You are being a bit vague. Just come out with it

Hooch
05-20-2009, 18:44
Personally, I like down because it's warmer, lighter and more compressible. But that's just me. Just sayin'

Engine
05-20-2009, 18:48
I have been toying with the idea of a new project, and I would like to know what is the best kind of insulation for sleep systems, and why? Also, would you use the same insulation for a coat, and why?
Everyones opinion is welcome, and no answer is a wrong answer, as long as you tell me why your insulation suggestion is best in your opinion.
I would also like to hear the negatives on all insulations.

High quality down is just so hard to beat. It compresses and insulates better than synthetics at a significantly lighter weight. I know all of the horror stories about wet down being useless, but that can be debated as well. If it is completely soaked, I agree it becomes a glop of muck that has little value. But, short of dunking your bag in a river, have you ever seen a completely soaked bag? Modern materials used to cover new bags can be remarkably water repellent, further decreasing the chances of a wet bag.

The same can be said about insulating coats. They are lighter, more compactable and again better insulating than synthetics. This is one area however where I would possibly take location into consideration. If you are hiking during late winter in the Pacific north west I would lean toward synthetic insulation since you will be wearing the insulation a lot and it will rain most of the time. Here in the east, I would go with the down year around.

Just stay away from cheap 550 to 650 fill down as it is no where as nice as the 800+ fill stuff.

My 2 cents.

Skidsteer
05-20-2009, 18:52
Good insulation for a sleeping mat and good insulation for a coat are two completely different design parameters.

Perhaps if you elaborate on your purpose you'll get better answers.

Phoenixdadeadhead
05-20-2009, 18:52
I have been checking out Climashield, and primaloft, as well as considering Down, but to be honest last time I made anything like this my choices were polyfill, holofill, and down, and back then down was heavy and sucked monkey gonads when it got a little wet, polyfill was heavy, and holofill was exspenive as all get out lol. But hey that was 20 years ago lol.

Chaco Taco
05-20-2009, 18:57
I have been checking out Climashield, and primaloft, as well as considering Down, but to be honest last time I made anything like this my choices were polyfill, holofill, and down, and back then down was heavy and sucked monkey gonads when it got a little wet, polyfill was heavy, and holofill was exspenive as all get out lol. But hey that was 20 years ago lol.

Spill it, whats this project and you will get a bit better response.

Phoenixdadeadhead
05-20-2009, 18:59
Good insulation for a sleeping mat and good insulation for a coat are two completely different design parameters.

Perhaps if you elaborate on your purpose you'll get better answers.
I have multiple projects, and depending on answers I get on this post and probably post later I will trim it down to a single project. My goal of all goals would be to make one item that performs many tasks, like and don't laugh, a hammock/tent that can be set up when there are trees or set up on the ground when there are none, and uses a single pole for the rain cover like the Photon/built in sleeping bag with an insulation on the bottom that provides nice padding as well as warmth, and the upper insulation that provides excellent warmth. All light as possible, durable as I can get, and with a small packed size.

Phoenixdadeadhead
05-20-2009, 19:01
Did I mention I want the Rainfly to be removable so I can use it ah a Poncho

Chaco Taco
05-20-2009, 19:02
Did I mention I want the Rainfly to be removable so I can use it ah a Poncho

Doesnt Antigravity make one?

Phoenixdadeadhead
05-20-2009, 19:12
Probably, I currently use my poncho as a rainfly. I think I want to make the bottom of the Hammock/tent out of Dyneem ripstop and make it like a bridge hammock then i can do the Rainfly/poncho in a kinda teardrop shape with a triangle sewn into each end about 2 feet longer than the hammock which would be only 5 foot 10 long, add loops along the length of the Hammock and along the inside of the rainfly to connect them together and a seam loop down the middle running the width of the rainfly for a single pole and a zipper next to the pole for entry. there is a lot more lol

Skidsteer
05-20-2009, 19:21
I have multiple projects, and depending on answers I get on this post and probably post later I will trim it down to a single project. My goal of all goals would be to make one item that performs many tasks, like and don't laugh, a hammock/tent that can be set up when there are trees or set up on the ground when there are none, and uses a single pole for the rain cover like the Photon/built in sleeping bag with an insulation on the bottom that provides nice padding as well as warmth, and the upper insulation that provides excellent warmth. All light as possible, durable as I can get, and with a small packed size.

Oh I'm not laughing. I would love to see it. But there are challenges.

Insulation(warmth) for a pad doesn't necessarily mean comfort but comfort in a jacket usually means warmth(insulation).

In other words CCF may be a great choice for insulation in a sleeping pad because it will handle a lot of compression(but not necessarily be comfortable). Using CCF in a coat would be uncomfortable as well as goofy looking. :D

Down works great as insulation in a coat or underquilt, but as soon as you compress(sleeping pad) it it is worthless.

Here's hoping you solve it.

Ranc0r
05-20-2009, 19:33
Climashield. Lofts back up, insulates well when wet, compresses like a dream, quilts into place without baffles required. Jackets, insulating pants, quilts - sleeping, over & under, never for pads or under weight of compression. Climashield is second only to down for insulative and compression qualities, and exceeds down in ease of use, ease of layout and sewing (DIY) and warmth when wet.:banana

HYOH, but don't ask my opinion and then complain that I don't hold the same one as you. I really dislike that. :mad:

Ranc0r
.

Phoenixdadeadhead
05-20-2009, 20:05
Climashield. Lofts back up, insulates well when wet, compresses like a dream, quilts into place without baffles required. Jackets, insulating pants, quilts - sleeping, over & under, never for pads or under weight of compression. Climashield is second only to down for insulative and compression qualities, and exceeds down in ease of use, ease of layout and sewing (DIY) and warmth when wet.:banana

HYOH, but don't ask my opinion and then complain that I don't hold the same one as you. I really dislike that. :mad:

Ranc0r
.
Awesome info, do you know about primaloft?

Toolshed
05-20-2009, 21:07
If I am not mistaken the late Colin Fletcher tried an open cell foam sandwich sleeping bag, which kept him very warm.. Too warm infact.

Phoenixdadeadhead
05-20-2009, 21:15
Open cell foam seems like the perfect solution for the underside, but if someone knows better I am all ears

Phoenixdadeadhead
05-20-2009, 21:26
Wait my bad I meant to say I think CLosed cell faom is the perfect solution for the underside lol

World-Wide
05-21-2009, 08:48
I have been toying with the idea of a new project, and I would like to know what is the best kind of insulation for sleep systems, and why? Also, would you use the same insulation for a coat, and why?
Everyones opinion is welcome, and no answer is a wrong answer, as long as you tell me why your insulation suggestion is best in your opinion.
I would also like to hear the negatives on all insulations.

Insulation: Back in 2001 I did a "Counter-Drug" stint in the Netherland Antilles, Curacao. Monitored drug traffic out of Venezuela to the U.S. (on the trail I can care less who does what!!:)) Any hoot, a few friends and I scuba-dived all day, set-up camp (laid sleeping bags on the beach) and founf ourselves pretty cold. Pulled out the "Rum" and lit a fire that attracted several 6 foot, blue-eyed dutch Goddesses that were more than happy at the end of the night to jump in a sleeping bag with you! I couldn't tell you my sleeping bag rating, but it was was too warm for the encounter! ;) Guess I'm saying "Down" and "Fleece" aren't in the same league as mutual body heat! Hope this helps! :)

JAK
05-21-2009, 08:49
In summer when temps might only get down to 50F, maybe 40F, is where it gets interesting as far as alternatives to down sleeping bags and blue foam pads.

First the ground pad:
0. Ground Sheet Only = cheap, very light, very compact BUT somewhat damp and cool
1. Closed Cell Foam = light, cheap BUT bulky, overkill on warmth, underkill on comfort
2. Self Inflating = comfy compact BUT somewhat heavier and pricier
3. Hang 'em High = haven't tried a hammock but I guess they really shine in summer

Sleeping bag / Quilt / Blanket / Hybrids
0. Sleep in just clothing = usually too chilly unless you brought too much clothing
1. Wool or Fleece Blanket and Nylon Shell = easy to DIY or hybridize with clothing ala poncho or kilt. Might actually be the lightest system above ~50F, but most nights are colder.
2. Quilt = theoretically lightest from ~40F to ~50F, and easier to DIY than Sleeping Bag.
3. Sleeping Bag = theoretically lighter below ~40F, but hardest to DIY and most expensive.

But this thread is about insulation materials, not systems. Here are materials.

Ground Insulation materials:
0. Forest duff and Ground Sheet
1. 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" closed cell foam
2. 1", 1.5", 2" self-inflating pads, filled with air, open cell, or down

Cover insulation materials:
0. shell = its always good to have at least one breathable shell as wind barrier
1. fleece = this only needs one shell, and absorbs little water, and is competitive above 50F, and can also be part of clothing system.
2. wool = same as fleece, but can get wet, although it can be dried out easily in summer if thin, and absorb and recover latent heat from body moisture which is 20% of heat loss.
3. synthetic insulation = requires 2 shells but doesn't need baffle construction and less vulnerable than down to a severe drenching.
4. down insulation = lightest for its loft, but requires 2 shells plus baffles and is most vulnerable to a severe drenching, which might call for a heavier shelter and pack system.

I think there isn't a clear answer for best insulation material or system for summer.
It is closely tied with your clothing and shelter choices, and other considerations.

Fun stuff for sure. Summer is a great time to mess around with different solutions.

JAK
05-21-2009, 09:11
Here is a system I might try this summer:
0. no ground pad, just pick dry ground and light forest duff
1. light breathable nylon bivy sack, waterproofed on bottom - this becomes pack
2. light clothing = light loose merino wool sweater, light short sleeved merino wool undershirt, light hiking shorts, merino wool boxers, 100wt fleece pants, light wool socks, 2nd socks as mitts, light wool necky and watch cap
3. rain poncho/tarp - this becomes rain shell when hiking

With the above minimal system for hiking in summer, including perhaps some cool wet morning or night hikes, the question is what additional sleeping insulation is required. Say only need an additional 8-16oz to put someplace. Should it be light sleeping bag, or a short thin closed cell pad and light quilt, or a 16oz fleece or wool blanket or bedroll? I think the only way to know for sure what works best would be to try different systems out, starting with the cheapest and easiet to DIY maybe, unless you already have a light summer sleeping bag or quilt.

World-Wide
05-21-2009, 09:17
Insulation: Back in 2001 I did a "Counter-Drug" stint in the Netherland Antilles, Curacao. Monitored drug traffic out of Venezuela to the U.S. (on the trail I can care less who does what!!:)) Any hoot, a few friends and I scuba-dived all day, set-up camp (laid sleeping bags on the beach) and founf ourselves pretty cold. Pulled out the "Rum" and lit a fire that attracted several 6 foot, blue-eyed dutch Goddesses that were more than happy at the end of the night to jump in a sleeping bag with you! I couldn't tell you my sleeping bag rating, but it was was too warm for the encounter! ;) Guess I'm saying "Down" and "Fleece" aren't in the same league as mutual body heat! Hope this helps! :)

Excuse the spelling errors! :(

JAK
05-21-2009, 09:22
Note to self. Make sure sleep system has lots of extra girth.

World-Wide
05-21-2009, 09:27
note To Self. Make Sure Sleep System Has Lots Of Extra Girth.

Lol! ...........................:d

Phoenixdadeadhead
05-21-2009, 23:31
Back to the insulation, I haven't used any Hammock since I was a kid and didn't care for them then, but as I described earlier part of the project is a bridge hammock. My question is has anyone tried a closed foam pad in a hammock, and if so how did it work?

Tinker
05-21-2009, 23:46
I have been toying with the idea of a new project, and I would like to know what is the best kind of insulation for sleep systems, and why? Also, would you use the same insulation for a coat, and why?
Everyones opinion is welcome, and no answer is a wrong answer, as long as you tell me why your insulation suggestion is best in your opinion.
I would also like to hear the negatives on all insulations.

Down. It's by far the longest lasting insulation for applications requiring multiple packing and unpacking.
Sure. Same reason as above, with exceptions. In the rainy seasons I like synthetic insulation in clothing because you are often out and about in your clothing, not in your sleeping bag.
Down is barely affected by heat.
Synthetics rely on a crimp put into the fibers to give the batting bulk. The crimp is set at a relatively low heat (less than 200 degrees). When dried in a hot dryer the crimps relax and you lose some of your loft and warmth. Leaving stuffed synthetic insulated garments and sleeping gear in a hot car or attic can have the same effect.
Synthetics just lose their loft much, much faster than down.
Down's major downsides:
If you get it thoroughly saturated it takes nearly forever to dry. That said, I've gotten my down bag pretty wet in leaky shelters in the past (another reason not to use them), and it dried with body heat the next night when it didn't rain.
If your down garment or bag rips, there goes your insulation. Grab the duct tape fast! The same goes for hot embers from a fire, though the holes usually aren't too big.
(Btw: that's a good reason to pitch your nylon tent away from a fire, too).

Tinker
05-21-2009, 23:51
Back to the insulation, I haven't used any Hammock since I was a kid and didn't care for them then, but as I described earlier part of the project is a bridge hammock. My question is has anyone tried a closed foam pad in a hammock, and if so how did it work?
Yes.
It tends to slide around out from under you when you toss and turn. It makes your back and butt sweaty in less than freezing weather. You also need a pad that's much wider since the hammock squeezes the loft out of your sleeping bag on the sides. I've made "wings" which widen the pad at the torso and shoulder which worked pretty well, but now I just put my hammock through a sleeping bag, snug up the foot opening and pull the bag up over me and the hammock, an under and over quilt.

Pad with wings : http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1362282599059664855ksnkrm

Phoenixdadeadhead
05-22-2009, 01:31
If the closed foam pad is part of the Hammock and unmovable would I still need wings? Also does the pad bend around you causing you to have less room, or does it kinda hold a flat shape helping you have a bit more arm room?