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ABC News
Too Fat for the Boy Scouts? New Weight Requirement Angers Some
New Requirements Ban Longtime Volunteers From Scouting Events
By SARAH NETTER
May 6, 2009
Larry Armstrong has been volunteering with his local Boy Scout branch for years, chaperoning trips, serving on the council committee, even becoming certified in archery instruction for a day camp.
Larry Armstrong's weight may get him banned from volunteering for the Boy Scouts Larry Armstrong's weight will exclude him from "high adventure" scouting trips with his sons when the Boy Scouts of America imposes new height/weight requirements next year.
(Courtesy Larry Armstrong)
But Armstrong, at 6-foot, 2-inches tall and about 370 pounds, may no longer qualify for some scout outings because he's overweight, part of a new push by the national organization to ensure the scouts and their volunteers are healthy.
A new mandatory weight requirement by the national Boy Scouts of America that will take effect next January has some longtime volunteers concerned they will be left out of trips they've enjoyed with their sons for years.
According to the chart outlined in the national health and medical record form, Armstrong's weight must come down to a minimum of 239 pounds before he'll be allowed on certain "high adventure" trips that take him more than 30 minutes away from emergency care by ground transportation.
"It looks like they're trying to get the perfect person," said Armstrong, who volunteers with Troop 458 out of Chapmansboro, Tenn. "And that's not going to happen."
In Los Angeles, Joshua Godinez faces the same problem. He defined himself as "pretty obese" at 5-foot-6 and 270 pounds.
Godinez said he already sticks to non-strenuous activities. He recently took a 90-minute hike along local roads, he said.
But Godinez said he understands why some volunteers are taking exception to the new guidelines, which are discussed on the online Web site he runs that compiles scouting stories and commentary.
"I think the idea is sound," he said. "I don't know if people were ready for them to just drop it into the program."
According to the BSA chart, which it says is taken directly from federal health guidelines, Godinez needs to weigh a maximum of 201 pounds before going on a "high adventure" trip with his 17-year-old son. The recommended weight for his height is between 118 and 167 pounds.
"High adventure" is a term used to describe activities such as long treks that snake through back country.
According to an FAQ sheet from the BSA regarding health and medical records, the height/weight requirements would not prohibit overweight volunteers at most of the BSA resident camps, which are reachable by car and Cub Scout programs, which are, by nature, not strenuous because of the young age of the boys involved.
"This was a decision made by the health and safety committee," BSA national spokesman Deron Smith said. "I think that the reason behind this, this is just part of the ongoing effort of the Boy Scouts to insure they are constantly improving the safety" of scouts and their leaders.
"The goal of these policies is certainly not to restrict anyone from volunteering or participating in the scouting program," he said."
"For high adventure activities for which medical care may be delayed, restrictions based on standardized height/weight ratios are now mandatory," according to the FAQ.
A medical evaluation by a doctor is now also required annually for trips lasting longer than 72 consecutive hours.
Jim Adams
05-23-2009, 00:21
Total bull$hit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
geek
Pokey2006
05-23-2009, 00:34
So they want everyone to be straight AND skinny? Ya, good luck with that, boys.
Phoenixdadeadhead
05-23-2009, 00:52
And then they wonder why every year they see less and less young boys/men joining the scouts.
World-Wide
05-23-2009, 03:10
When growing up I've been a Webelos, a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout. From the Scout on up to the Scout Master, our Chicago troops varied in body shape/size. Never stopped us from learning about the do's and dont's of nature. Also never stopped those of all sizes from spending freezing winter nights camping at Starved Rock, Illinois. My Scout Master may have been about 100lbs overweight, but he taught me some great lessons and character traits that I've carried into a military career 9 months just shy of 20 years! Little pissed on these new standards!
My brother ran into this issue when he was planning to go to New Mexico with his step-son next year. Scouts told him he needed to lose at least 50lbs before he could go. Funny thing is he's actually losing the weight, so it can have a positive effect. That said, it is ridiculous to go strictly by what a government height/weight chart says you should weigh.
...That said, it is ridiculous to go strictly by what a government height/weight chart says you should weigh.
BMI and other indicators that leave out body fat percentage are useless when dealing with fit individuals. For the majority they may have some merit, but that could very well be debated as well. In the OP the person in question would have to weigh no more than 239 at 6'2" which means most college and pro football players would be "too fat" for an outing with the boy scouts...I'm calling BS on this decision as well. :mad:
Jan 08 I was 365 lbs started walking now I'm 210 and continue to lose if they want healthy kids the should encourage and not discourage
Phoenixdadeadhead
05-23-2009, 07:46
BMI and other indicators that leave out body fat percentage are useless when dealing with fit individuals. For the majority they may have some merit, but that could very well be debated as well. In the OP the person in question would have to weigh no more than 239 at 6'2" which means most college and pro football players would be "too fat" for an outing with the boy scouts...I'm calling BS on this decision as well. :mad:I hear that!! My BMI put's me on the tip of Obese, I am 5 foot 7 and 3/4 and weigh 200 pounds, but I have a 32 inch waist and 15 inch biceps lol. Weight and height are by no means an accurate measurement of fitness or health. If the BSA want to protect themselves from potential lawsuits brought on by "Over weight" Volenteers, then they should ask that all volenteers have a check up and stress test done yearly, and if the doctor clears them to hit the trails then BSA is clear of any potential responsibility.
Wise Old Owl
05-23-2009, 07:49
I think some of you did not read the entire post
"This was a decision made by the health and safety committee," BSA national spokesman Deron Smith said. "I think that the reason behind this, this is just part of the ongoing effort of the Boy Scouts to insure they are constantly improving the safety" of scouts and their leaders.
"The goal of these policies is certainly not to restrict anyone from volunteering or participating in the scouting program," he said."
"For high adventure activities for which medical care may be delayed, restrictions based on standardized height/weight ratios are now mandatory," according to the FAQ.
A medical evaluation by a doctor is now also required annually for trips lasting longer than 72 consecutive hours.
Sounds like good advice and sound reasoning.
I have a doctor that would not give me the sugury for Sleep Apnea until I lost 30 lbs and it took me six months to work it off and manage it.
If the weight issue was only for people in positions of leadership I might be able to see the logic, although some overweight people are very capable, physically, beyond their appearance. As far as physical evaluation for leaders, that makes complete sense. I wouldn't want my son, the scout (putting myself in the position of the parents) going for a multiday hike with a leader who has an obvious heart problem, for instance.
Weight alone is a very poor standard for judging someone's health or competency, but in matters regarding the safety of others, there has to be some standard. I guess that's where the Boy Scouts have decided to start. Sad but understandable.
To put this issue into a different light, somewhat similarly, a number of years ago, it was thought that women couldn't make good firefighters, since men, generally - note I said generally, have more upper body strength and therefore are thought as being more capable than most (again, note I said most) women to rescue a heavy person or persons from a burning building - certainly a probability given the occupation.
Since there is not one God-given standard to how the "Perfect Person" is made, it falls to mere mortals to set the standards, and, yes, sometimes it really does suck.
StarLyte
05-23-2009, 08:09
I think of Disney when I read this....
"This was a decision made by the health and safety committee," Wanna bet this "committee" is populated by a bunch of fat bastids?
"This was a decision made by the health and safety committee," Wanna bet this "committee" is populated by a bunch of fat bastids?
:D:D:D:-? Hmmmmmmm..............:rolleyes:
Lemni Skate
05-23-2009, 09:58
at 5'11 259 lbs. this morning I'm sure I wouldn't qualify for one of their adventures. I hike up and down mountains all the time.
Their is a lot of debate around the weight guidelines of the government and BMI charts.
I don't mind the weight requirement, but you ought to be able to get it waived by a doctor.
My blood pressure is low, my cholesterol is low, my heart rate drops back to normal quickly after exercise. I've had nurses express shock when they see my numbers. I'm in good shape for a guy of my size.
I always love looks I get on the top of some strenuous climb. No one ever says anything rude, but I think a lot of them think, "How'd that fat guy get up here?"
I would have a lot to offer a boy scout group, but I'll just save it for my kids and their friends.
I hike much more than most of the adult leaders in scouts, certainly in the two troops I've volunteered with in the past. The weight limits they're setting will probably forever prevent me from helping with scouts.
I suspect when BSA see enrollment among leaders drop, this will change. Otherwise, I will never volunteer with another troop again.
garlic08
05-23-2009, 10:08
I can understand the reasoning behind it. This may have been prompted by some bad experiences on trails. As a firefighter, I've seen whole crews have real bad days because of one or two unfit people. To work on a USFS fire, you must have passed minimum yearly fitness and other qualification tests (red card). But on smaller incidents, the local department may have less rigid requirements. Many are not fit enough to work a line safely or even hike to the scene. I've had to nurse obese people up a 300' hill, worried all the way. As I became crew leader on my volunteer department, I would not allow non-redcarded firefighters on my crews.
The Scribe
05-23-2009, 10:44
I think some of you did not read the entire post
"This was a decision made by the health and safety committee," BSA national spokesman Deron Smith said. "I think that the reason behind this, this is just part of the ongoing effort of the Boy Scouts to insure they are constantly improving the safety" of scouts and their leaders.
"The goal of these policies is certainly not to restrict anyone from volunteering or participating in the scouting program," he said."
"For high adventure activities for which medical care may be delayed, restrictions based on standardized height/weight ratios are now mandatory," according to the FAQ.
A medical evaluation by a doctor is now also required annually for trips lasting longer than 72 consecutive hours.
Sounds like good advice and sound reasoning.
I have a doctor that would not give me the sugury for Sleep Apnea until I lost 30 lbs and it took me six months to work it off and manage it.
Sounds like some lawyers got involved somewhere along the line.
Wise Old Owl, good for you on the apnea and weight thing. I had that problem and no one said a word or wasted one second on my weight. All they wanted to do was slap that mask to my face. I lost 35 lbs and pretty much solved the problem myself. Even so, the DR still wanted to slap the mask on my face.
I'm with Garlic08. This actually does sound like sensible policy.
Toolshed
05-23-2009, 11:02
I actually agree with the ruling for high adventure outings as long as there ways to petition decisions based on various reasons (Very Muscular, or demonstrably cardiovascular fit for high adventures, though overweight)
Having worked and been a helper for a commercial outfitter, we would have events whereby folks would be walking 20 miles in a day. I have seen people sign up that could barely make it 2 miles before falling by the wayside and having to ride the rest of the trip in the helper van.
I do think that the average person might think as long as they can walk around a mall for 30 minutes or walk a 1/2 mile on a sidewalk on a nice day, that they can simply head out for 10-15 miles in tougher conditions, be it weather or topography.
In many cases, if an unfit person heads out to the backcountry for an epic journey in a fit of enthusiasm, they can usually turn back after a mile or 2, if they become overwhelmed and get back to their cars without trouble.
Whereas if you were an obese parent going out on a high adventure trip for a few days, the added pressures of other scouts and parents and your own children being there could probably sway those who should turn back when they feel overwhelmed from turning back thereby creating a possible adverse situation.
I think it is a good idea to actually assess every person going on a high adventure trip as well as making sure there are pre-trip meetings and group activities to help all become acclimated prior to the event.
QuebecRun
05-23-2009, 11:08
Well there goes a LARGE percent of WV!
Well there goes a LARGE percent of WV!
Pun in ten did!
I can understand the reasoning behind it. This may have been prompted by some bad experiences on trails. As a firefighter, I've seen whole crews have real bad days because of one or two unfit people. To work on a USFS fire, you must have passed minimum yearly fitness and other qualification tests (red card). But on smaller incidents, the local department may have less rigid requirements. Many are not fit enough to work a line safely or even hike to the scene. I've had to nurse obese people up a 300' hill, worried all the way. As I became crew leader on my volunteer department, I would not allow non-redcarded firefighters on my crews.
I understand your point, but as a firefighter I can honestly say that wildland firefighting is MUCH more rigorous than anything the BSA might be doing. It's just the blanket restrictions that I don't like, they are based on a poorly designed scale that leaves too many holes for an accurate assessment of health.
A medical evaluation by a doctor is now also required annually for trips lasting longer than 72 consecutive hours.
I think this means that you just have to go to the doctor once a year for a standard annual physical exam. I doesn't say you have to have anything in writing.
Panzer
I hike much more than most of the adult leaders in scouts, certainly in the two troops I've volunteered with in the past. The weight limits they're setting will probably forever prevent me from helping with scouts.
I suspect when BSA see enrollment among leaders drop, this will change. Otherwise, I will never volunteer with another troop again.
This has always been a rule for the high adventure camps. Since I first went to Philmont in 1999, there has been a height and weight requirement to meet for both the adults AND the scouts. It is not so much a health issue, as you can be a big person and be in shape, but an issue of if there is a problem, it is going to impede the ability of the rescuers to get you to safety if there is an emergency.
I understand your point, but as a firefighter I can honestly say that wildland firefighting is MUCH more rigorous than anything the BSA might be doing. It's just the blanket restrictions that I don't like, they are based on a poorly designed scale that leaves too many holes for an accurate assessment of health.
I disagree. Often the loads being carried by the firefighters are not as immense as they could be from the scouts and leaders at high adventure camps, and those firefighters are going to (most likely) be in better shape than Joe Schmoe office worker that is going to go with his kid on a trek at over a mile over sea level up to 12,500 feet.
Now, I'm not saying that wild land firefighting is not tough (And I know from personal experience) but the standards that the BSA is trying to create, are to help people. To keep them from keeling over in the wilderness. To help the rescuers that have to carry them out. To try to help to affect that they have a good time at the camps that are available.
I can understand the reasoning behind it. This may have been prompted by some bad experiences on trails. As a firefighter, I've seen whole crews have real bad days because of one or two unfit people. To work on a USFS fire, you must have passed minimum yearly fitness and other qualification tests (red card). But on smaller incidents, the local department may have less rigid requirements. Many are not fit enough to work a line safely or even hike to the scene. I've had to nurse obese people up a 300' hill, worried all the way. As I became crew leader on my volunteer department, I would not allow non-redcarded firefighters on my crews.
This is based on a BMI chart that means nothing. for my height, my max healthy weight is supposed to be about 176 pounds. I left the Marine Corps at 207 pounds and 16% body fat. The only time since my teen years I dipped into the 170's was my AT thru-hike, and my body fat dropped to less than 10%. I was actually less healthy (starved) when I finished than when I began.
The BMI chart is a joke. It never prevented me from participating in Philmont as a ranger in the early 90's or leading scout groups on backpacking and canoeing trips as an adult. Now, I'm suddenly "too fat" to lead these groups?
Like I said, I don't see this policy lasting.
good policy. I hate hiking with slow fat people who can't keep up.
I think this means that you just have to go to the doctor once a year for a standard annual physical exam. I doesn't say you have to have anything in writing.
Panzer
No - you must have Part B filled out of the new medical form for any event lasting over 72 hours.
Part B is documentation of a medical evaluation:
Part B
is required with parts A and C for any event that exceeds 72 consecutive hours, a resident camp setting, or when the nature of the activity is strenuous and demanding, such as service projects, work weekends, or high-adventure treks.
It is to be completed and signed by a certified and licensed health-care provider—physician (MD, DO), nurse practitioner, or physician’s assistant as appropriate for your state. The level of activity ranges from what is normally expended at home or at school to strenuous activity such as hiking and backpacking. Other examples include tour camping, jamborees, and Wood Badge training courses. It is important to note that the height/weight chart must be strictly adhered to if the event will take the unit beyond a radius wherein emergency evacuation is more than 30 minutes by ground transportation, such as backpacking trips, high-adventure activities, and conservation projects in remote areas.
http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34605_Letter.pdf
I agree with the general idea of screening individuals based on weight. I can think of several instances where dramatically overweight adults hampered the activities and probably endangered their own lives (My Wood Badge patrol had a severely overweight individual who could barely walk from our campsite to meetings - and made the patrol late for every meeting. I've been on backpacking trips with adults that had to come off the trail because they simply could not do the hike.)
This is new - it's my understanding that the new medical form is required as of 1/1/2010. We are not requiring it for summer camp for any boy / adult that has an up-to-date medical form this year. At the unit level, we're still figuring out what this means, and whether there is any flexibility in the weight/height charts. Frankly, those in our unit that would not qualify because of the weight/height chart aren't not qualified because of too much muscle mass. ;)
Lemni Skate
05-23-2009, 13:30
I think if your skin is too fair you should not be allowed to go because you'll burn too easily. If you drink too much your liver might give out. If you smoke you should not be allowed to go. If you are too thin you body might not have enough fat reserves to draw upon in an emergency, so you shouldn't go. Over 6'4" and you're too likely to bump your head on something. Under 5'6" and some of the step ups might be too tough for you. If you had strep throat last year how do we know you suddenly get an attack of scarlet fever. Have you been through psychological testing. How do we know you won't "snap" out in the woods? Any recent body art? You might get an infection. If you're over 50 you should have to stay, obviously you're too old.
It's easy to pick on the fat guys. You can see our defects, but I'd wager we all fit into some actuarial category that makes us a "higher risk."
This is based on a BMI chart that means nothing. for my height, my max healthy weight is supposed to be about 176 pounds. I left the Marine Corps at 207 pounds and 16% body fat. The only time since my teen years I dipped into the 170's was my AT thru-hike, and my body fat dropped to less than 10%. I was actually less healthy (starved) when I finished than when I began.
The BMI chart is a joke. It never prevented me from participating in Philmont as a ranger in the early 90's or leading scout groups on backpacking and canoeing trips as an adult. Now, I'm suddenly "too fat" to lead these groups?
Like I said, I don't see this policy lasting.
Exactly the point I'm trying to make. I nearly didn't get into the Army due to a body weight of 195 at 6'0" back in 1983. My body fat percentage was around 10% at that time but I was listed as "borderline" due to my physique. The funny thing is I maxed every pt test I ever took while I was in.
I'm not saying I don't understand the need to keep things in check by the BSA, but as has been pointed out the BMI and other similar methods of tracking body mass are inherently flawed. There are many better ways this could be done. Something as simple as a skinfold caliper test would be far superior to this.
Bearpaw, there are always exceptions to the rule. But often, fat is fat. Someone has a kid, the kid joins scouts, and daddy wants to go on a backpack - and isn't in physical shape to do so.
If someone saw me in the supermarket and knew nothing about me, they would probably think I wasn't capable of backpacking in the mountains. A group like BSA with assets and hundreds of thousands of members needs to have standards. AMC took a lot of grief for setting standards for hike leaders. It was the right thing to do in both cases - in my opinion.
In other words, just because you're a little beefy - doesn't mean you can't hike. And just because you're an experienced backpacker/hiker - doesn't make you would make a good hike leader.
Armstrong, at 6-foot, 2-inches tall and about 370 pounds,
Joshua Godinez faces the same problem. He defined himself as "pretty obese" at 5-foot-6 and 270 pounds.
Call me a "fatist", but I would not want these two on a high adventure trip..esp as leaders. :)
I am 5'6" myself, have a fairly muscular frame...and I looked like a total porker at my heaviest weight ever back when I was 21: 210 lbs (egads!..). If I go up to 190 now..it is noticeable.
I don't care what kind of experience I've had. If I weighed 270 lbs at 5'6", I don't think I'd very good humping a (very heavy..its BSA afterall) pack over the mountains.
Yeah..the BMI is not realistic for muscular and/or in shape people (I'd be considered borderline obese by strict BMI standards)...however, let's be realistic,
if you are pushing 400 lbs, you ain't in shape. :)
Is it the perfect standard? No. However, again, I'd be wary of taking out a person who is pushing 300 lbs at only 5'6".
I lead many trips for my outdoor group. I screen the harder ones and have to politely tell people that maybe the trip is not for them. Perhaps I should let everyone in regardless of their experience, level of fitness and ability? :)
Lemni, according to the chart you would need to be no more than 233.
From BSA's website, the FAQ section:
"For high-adventure activities for which medical care may be delayed, restrictions based on standardized height/weight ratios are now mandatory."
"All participants should fill out Parts A and C for any event. Part B (the physical examination) should be completed if you are participating in an event that exceeds 72 consecutive hours, such as jamborees, summer camps, and Wood Badge training courses. Part B also is required for participation in a resident camp setting or when the nature of the activity is strenuous and demanding such as service projects, work weekends, or high-adventure treks. It is important to note that if the event will take your unit beyond a radius wherein emergency care is more than 30 minutes by ground transportation, the height/weight chart found at the bottom of Part B should be strictly followed." (my emphasis added)
BSA has responsibility for the health and safety of those who take part in their programs. Since being over weight is a major risk factor to heart attack and stroke, couple that with extreme physical activity and you have a recipe for disaster. I think they're doing the right thing.
Rockhound
05-23-2009, 17:06
Nothing wrong with requiring people to be fit enough for certain group activities. I think they should judge it on an individual basis however. I know 300 pound people who could out hike many of those reading this and other 300 pounders that have trouble walking any further than the refrigerator. Arbitrarily assigned numbers are not how to go about it.
When people tell you that you can't do something what they are really saying is that they can't.;)
I'm not a big rule guy anyways.:rolleyes:
I like Mags way of common sense and council better.:)
Armstrong, at 6-foot, 2-inches tall and about 370 pounds,
Joshua Godinez faces the same problem. He defined himself as "pretty obese" at 5-foot-6 and 270 pounds.
Call me a "fatist", but I would not want these two on a high adventure trip..esp as leaders. :)
Perhaps I should let everyone in regardless of their experience, level of fitness and ability? :)
A) I don't think either one of those individuals would be great candidates for NOLS or a rugged BSA hike either, but it wasn't them I was referring to, and I don't think that was the point of others either.
B) No, you shouldn't allow just anyone to go and possibly endager themselves and others. But, that isn't what I'm getting at. The criteria they are using is going to exclude fit energetic people purely because they possess a mesomorphic build.
To be succinct, BSA should have a standard and this one shouldn't be it. As mentioned earlier a skinfold caliper check with an allowable bodyfat percentage of less than 20% and a clean bill of health from the doctor would be much better than this system.
Bearpaw, there are always exceptions to the rule. But often, fat is fat. Someone has a kid, the kid joins scouts, and daddy wants to go on a backpack - and isn't in physical shape to do so.
If someone saw me in the supermarket and knew nothing about me, they would probably think I wasn't capable of backpacking in the mountains. A group like BSA with assets and hundreds of thousands of members needs to have standards. AMC took a lot of grief for setting standards for hike leaders. It was the right thing to do in both cases - in my opinion.
In other words, just because you're a little beefy - doesn't mean you can't hike. And just because you're an experienced backpacker/hiker - doesn't make you would make a good hike leader.
Except that I WAS a hike leader for the National Outdoor Leadership School as a beefy person for three years. The curriculum was much more demanding than Philmont, the crown jewel of the BSA, but mild compared to the 30-day treks with 70 pounds of pack weight at NOLS.
It's BSA's loss.
Shutterbug
05-23-2009, 18:15
... if there is a problem, it is going to impede the ability of the rescuers to get you to safety if there is an emergency.
If the issue is too much weight for rescuers, then why pay attention to one's height? Isn't a 5'8" person who weighs 300 lbs just as easy to rescue as a 6' person who weights 300 lbs?
saimyoji
05-23-2009, 18:21
I hear that!! My BMI put's me on the tip of Obese, I am 5 foot 7 and 3/4 and weigh 200 pounds, but I have a 32 inch waist and 15 inch biceps lol.
:-?
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=33174&catid=member&imageuser=22112
Pokey2006
05-23-2009, 19:11
There's a difference between having a weight restriction on the job -- firefighting, military, etc. -- and having one within a volunteer organization.
Besides the fact that hiking really is just walking. Not like you're running through the desert and 100 pounds of gear and ammo or dragging a hose up a mountain.
And also besides the fact that weight standards are skewed. I'm too "fat" for the military, according to the charts, yet I could easily outhike any of the young, skinny recruits I met during my day at MEPS. Go figure.
There's a difference between having a weight restriction on the job -- firefighting, military, etc. -- and having one within a volunteer organization.
Besides the fact that hiking really is just walking. Not like you're running through the desert and 100 pounds of gear and ammo or dragging a hose up a mountain.
And also besides the fact that weight standards are skewed. I'm too "fat" for the military, according to the charts, yet I could easily outhike any of the young, skinny recruits I met during my day at MEPS. Go figure.
MEPS, that brings back memories. Nothing like standing in a line with 10 other guys and bending over for inspection.:rolleyes:
peakbagger
05-23-2009, 20:53
When I was involved in the program many years ago, if you fell out of the BMI charts, you had to get a doctor to sign off on participation in the activity.
The organization has been finding ways to drive away volunteers for years and this is just another one. I used to "love" trying to find qualified merit badge instructors in a rural area that would be willing to follow the "two adults at all times rule", especially when I had to have them sign a form affirming that they were not now or ever had been a pedophile. I have the greatest respect for those who stick it out for the good of the scouts, but when you rationally review and understand the potential personal liability for being involved as an adult leader, most folks would walk away.
kolokolo
05-23-2009, 21:18
I have been a volunteer with BSA for almost 10 years, and this is just the latest in a series of policy changes that are progressively thinning the ranks of adult volunteers. I personally will have no problem making the BMI target, but I know that many of my troop's volunteers will never be able to go on a high adventure trip with their sons.
The BSA already had a requirement that adults over 40 have a complete physical in the 12 months before summer camp or a high adventure trip, and have their doctor specifically approve high adventure activities. This policy takes the decision out of the physicians' hands, and says that the BSA knows more about health than your doctor. I think this is misguided and counterproductive for the Boy Scout organization.
The key in my troop has always been preparation for high adventure. We knew when planning for a week long backpacking trip that we would have to work up to it, so we always scheduled 3-4 preparatory hikes in the months before. By the time we got to the high adventure week, everyone on the trip was in good shape. Not everyone was skinny or would make the BMI guidelines, but we had enough conditioning and experience to know that no one would hold us back.
I think this requirement is ridiculous, and has the effect of punishing the people that Scouts need most.
I guess I don't really get it - some guy that is 6'2" 370 pounds is claiming they are looking for the "perfect" person?
370 pounds is enormous. Enormously enormous. That guy should be thinning down to their required weight (which is still rather large) just so he will have a shot at living past sixty years old. I know I wouldn't want to be the eleven year old kid out on a hike with my scout leader that just collapses and has a heart attack 20 miles out on the trail.
IMO these people throwing up their arms in a fit of rage quitting the scouts because they were informed they should work on not being excessively obese if they want to lead people out into the wilderness should consider eating healthier.
Seriously. Sure, BMI isn't the best measurement, but it's pretty damn accurate for someone who is 6'2" and 370 pounds. The average height and weight of offensive lineman (pretty much the biggest players) is 6'3" and 300 pounds. That's 70 pounds less than this guy. Once you get up there you can't really use the "BMI isn't accurate" argument.
[QUOTE=Pokey2006;842657]There's a difference between having a weight restriction on the job -- firefighting, military, etc. -- and having one within a volunteer organization.
not really. The organization is responsible for safety, Over-weighters are high risk.
I don't see what the fuss is all about. If you want to volunteer with BSA. Back away from the table, get off your ass, and lose the weight.
Over-weighters are high risk.
well, its undeniable that they are a high risk but as many others have pointed out it is not the only high risk a person can have. It seems like this high risk has been singled out in part because it very obvious that the person has it but also because overweight people are held in distain by society in general.
When we were kids we used to pick on the fat kids. Now that we have grown up we still do it today.
Panzer
lilypond
05-24-2009, 00:01
I think if your skin is too fair you should not be allowed to go because you'll burn too easily. If you drink too much your liver might give out. If you smoke you should not be allowed to go. If you are too thin you body might not have enough fat reserves to draw upon in an emergency, so you shouldn't go. Over 6'4" and you're too likely to bump your head on something. Under 5'6" and some of the step ups might be too tough for you. If you had strep throat last year how do we know you suddenly get an attack of scarlet fever. Have you been through psychological testing. How do we know you won't "snap" out in the woods? Any recent body art? You might get an infection. If you're over 50 you should have to stay, obviously you're too old.
It's easy to pick on the fat guys. You can see our defects, but I'd wager we all fit into some actuarial category that makes us a "higher risk."
And if your too short you might get stepped on!!!
...It seems like this high risk has been singled out in part because it very obvious that the person has it but also because overweight people are held in distain by society in general.
When we were kids we used to pick on the fat kids. Now that we have grown up we still do it today.
Panzer
I think you letting your imagination run wild. Over weight is not the only health factor they look at. It is not being "singled out". It is a safety issue, not some mean spirited, Lets pick on the fat guy thing.
Rockhound
05-24-2009, 00:19
My den leader is sooo fat, he's got more chins than a Peking phone book.
Rockhound
05-24-2009, 00:20
my den leader is soooo fat, other den leaders orbit around him.
Rockhound
05-24-2009, 00:22
My den leader is soooo fat, when he orders off the numbered menu at McDonalds it sounds like a phone number.
Rockhound
05-24-2009, 00:34
When 1/3 of the country can be considered obese, something is wrong. Would it be acceptable to have Boy Scout volunteers who are drug addicts? alcoholics? no. So why should it be OK for someone who abuses themselves and their heath through a food addiction and laziness be any different. It is not a good example for scouts. If this guy wants to peel off a couple hundred pounds and return great. That would be a positive example.
tenpennys
05-24-2009, 01:28
Well, just something else to keep folks from the scouting programs. I am 6' and nearly 300 pounds, myself. I have been an avid hiker, swimmer, outdoorsman for well over 30-years. Granted I am considered obesed, but I am willing to put my conditioning against anyone.
I think they have gone to far.
Ciao
Remember the good ole days when other people's weight was none of your goddamned business?
Lemni Skate
05-24-2009, 06:34
I have been won over. With my degrees in math and statistics I don't know how I didn't see that the blind use of numbers was the way to go.
I think in order to lead the boy scouts you need to have scored at least 1350 on your SATs if you took them before they re-centered the scores and 1460 after they re-centered them. I don't want some moron who knows nothing about the mathematics of knot theory in n-dimensions trying to teach them how to tie knots.
I also think your cholesterol should have to be under 175. (Don't give me that crap about "good cholesterol")
Certain races are more at risk of heart attack than others, too. We'll get a DNA analysis and see if you can go.
Shoe size must be greater than your weight in pounds divided by your height in inches times 2.07 unless you're shoe width is E or greater in which case you can multiply by 1.91. Of course, these measurements must be done at a reputable outfitter and not at "Foot Locker." We don't want people out there trying to carry their weight and a pack around on little nubs.
In all seriousness, guys, what's wrong with letting a doctor sign off that it's okay for some guy who misses the number by a few pounds to go on the trip?
Rockhound
05-24-2009, 08:33
Remember the good ole days when other people's weight was none of your goddamned business?
It's my business if I am forced to sit next to them in a movie theater, an airplane, a bus etc...It's my business if I have to carry them 5 miles out of the woods. It's my business if my tax dollars have to pay for Hoverrounds because more and more people are becoming to damn fat to even walk. I know this is a hiking site. I applaud any obese person who is fighting the battle of the bulge through recreation, diet and exercise. Which would be a fair amount of WBers. I do not applaud those who get all up in arms over these types of stories, crying foul and discrimination as they chase down a Big Mac and fries with a Pepsi and Hydroxycut
It's my business if I am forced to sit next to them in a movie theater, an airplane, a bus etc...
If someone's forcing you to sit next to someone in the movie theatre, etc, take it up with the person doing the "forcing"
It's my business if I have to carry them 5 miles out of the woods.
Why would you "have" to do that?
It's my business if my tax dollars have to pay for Hoverrounds because more and more people are becoming to damn fat to even walk.
No it's not, if you don't like how your tax dollars are spent, take it up with the people taxing you.
I know this is a hiking site. I applaud any obese person who is fighting the battle of the bulge through recreation, diet and exercise. Which would be a fair amount of WBers. I do not applaud those who get all up in arms over these types of stories, crying foul and discrimination as they chase down a Big Mac and fries with a Pepsi and Hydroxycut
I weigh 165 lbs, not that what I weigh or eat is anyone's business.
Here is the actual page of the guide that states all the information. I do not know if it is the updated chart or not.
Height and Weight Guidelines (http://www.troop675wadsworth.org/upldDocuments/Unit289/Ht_Wt_Guidelines[1].pdf)
And Here (http://www.troop870wubc.com/PDFs/philmontheightweightadvisory.pdf) is another explaining the risks to those with chronic diseases.
Lemni Skate
05-24-2009, 09:27
So let me get this straight, if you've got a history of heart disease and stroke and have even had previous heart attacks, have chest pains, and hardening of the arteries and pain in your legs you're merely advised that it might not be a good idea, but if you're a personal trainer and body builder who is 6' 240 lbs. you are forbidden to go?
Good logic there.
Lemni Skate
05-24-2009, 09:29
P.S. I wonder how many of those horses get back to their stable at night and say, "If that guy was under 200lbs, then I'm a Clydesdale."
Lemni Skate
05-24-2009, 09:41
Of course, none of this matters.
If you want to hike...go hike. Nobody is telling anyone they can't hike. They're just saying, "You ain't hiking with me, fatso!" So be it. I go out and hike until I'm tired and then I take a break. I don't need a group of people with me to sigh and make comments if I go to slow or take too many breaks and I don't need people slower than me making me sigh and make comments when they take too many breaks.
I really don't understand why people want to hike in big (no pun intended) groups anyway.
I'll see you skinny guys at the top of the mountain, and when I go back down you and your friends can discuss what a pathetic person I am for being overweight and backpacking with my kids.
Thing is, backpacking is the only way I've ever had success losing weight. So if I listen to you guys maybe I can stay home and get up to 375 pounds.
Wise Old Owl
05-24-2009, 11:09
Of course, none of this matters.
If you want to hike...go hike. Nobody is telling anyone they can't hike. They're just saying, "You ain't hiking with me, fatso!" So be it. I go out and hike until I'm tired and then I take a break. I don't need a group of people with me to sigh and make comments if I go to slow or take too many breaks and I don't need people slower than me making me sigh and make comments when they take too many breaks.
I really don't understand why people want to hike in big (no pun intended) groups anyway.
I'll see you skinny guys at the top of the mountain, and when I go back down you and your friends can discuss what a pathetic person I am for being overweight and backpacking with my kids.
Thing is, backpacking is the only way I've ever had success losing weight. So if I listen to you guys maybe I can stay home and get up to 375 pounds.
What happened? was the thread a little too close to home? have you ever been in a group?Aside from the title, the thread did have some common sense to it. If you are over 250 lbs I would question your ability to go hiking over 14 miles a day if you were in my group. And yes I do understand the need to hike to trim the weight, I do that too.
Wise Old Owl
05-24-2009, 11:21
Remember the good ole days when other people's weight was none of your goddamned business?
No I don't remember that. What I do remember is watching TV as a kid and Mission control with 100's of skinny people keeping our astronauts safe in the 60's & 70's.
http://www.udel.edu/physics/scen103/ZING/Apollo13MissionControl1.jpg
Here is the actual page of the guide that states all the information. I do not know if it is the updated chart or not.
Height and Weight Guidelines (http://www.troop675wadsworth.org/upldDocuments/Unit289/Ht_Wt_Guidelines%5B1%5D.pdf)
Cool, at 6' I just make it under the maximum acceptance guidelines. Now to lose the 40 lbs to get myself to the highest recommended weight for my height.
Wise Old Owl
05-24-2009, 14:33
Cool, at 6' I just make it under the maximum acceptance guidelines. Now to lose the 40 lbs to get myself to the highest recommended weight for my height.
Thank you Sly for finding that - Now I feel much better.:cool:
Lemni Skate
05-24-2009, 18:46
What happened? was the thread a little too close to home?
What?
Look at my own custom description of myself..."fat guy." I know I'm fat.
No I don't remember that. What I do remember is watching TV as a kid and Mission control with 100's of skinny people keeping our astronauts safe in the 60's & 70's.
http://www.udel.edu/physics/scen103/ZING/Apollo13MissionControl1.jpg
And they all were smoking.
I have met more than one large person who had feet like a cat.
Toolshed
05-25-2009, 08:12
Lemni, I think you are taking this waaay too personally. The scouts are trying to protect themselves, the boys and the parents. They have adopted standards. And as said before in this thread there are exceptions to standards.
This might also be a requirement set upon them by their insurance carrier - While understandably it might be mildly upsetting to the 16 people who do not fit the equation - The Outliers, if you will. It is meant to save some lives in the group of 10,000 who do fit the equation.
Organizations as these should have minimum requirements or standards in place - If not this, what universally accepted standard would you recommend?
Rockhound
05-25-2009, 09:05
Lem, Somehow I don't think you weigh 370 pounds. The person in question in this thread does. Let me repeat that. The guy weighs 370 pounds. If he wants to begin walking a round his neighborhood great. Through carefully planned and monitored diet an exercise program maybe he can drop 100 to 150 pounds and then start thinking about backpacking with a group of scouts for which he would be responsible. At present it would be irresponsible and negligent to allow him to do so.
booney_1
05-25-2009, 09:16
To those who don't like the screenings...what criteria would you use? The first BSA high adventure program is Philmont. This is a 9 or 10 day backpacking trip in the Mountain of New Mexico. The altitude is 2 miles to 12,441 ft high. Some camps are dry camps, requiring crews to carry water.
The treks are done in the summer so it's HOT. Treks are typically 60 to 80 miles. Even with the screening criteria that has been in place for years, many people develop problems and need to be taken off the trail. To avoid ruining a trek for the scouts involved, you can now "rent a ranger" to provide the required two deep leadership. If somebody on the trail is hurt, it is not easy or quick to get help or an evacuation.
Unfortunately, most adult scouters are not NFL linemen, or personal trainers with 18" biceps. Many are overweight and out of shape. They are completely free to do most scout activities such as troop campouts and hikes. There are no restrictions on any of these things. But the high adventure trips are in remote areas and are extremely challenging physically demanding. Through the years people have died at philmont and countless numbers had to be taken off the trail. In response BSA has come up with a screen to protect the boys and adults involved.
To the adult leader who is 370 pounds...Do you honestly think you can keep up with 16 year old kids climbing mountains, and hauling a 30 pound backpack?? Have you ever done a 10 mile trip in the mountains with a backpack??
I'm surprised at the experienced backpackers on this site who have seen out of shape people hiking, and cannot understand the BSA's policy. Who here would reccomend a 370 pound adult start a 70 mile trek, 2 miles high in the mountains????
Rockhound
05-25-2009, 09:18
Lemni Skate apparently
I was a scout leader for 16 years. I ran our troop's high adventure program for the last 8. I am 6'3" and weigh 310 lbs. I am also a former College football lineman. I never had problems on week long treks in the smoky's or any place else. Even though I would not qualify now I understand the reason behind the changes. I have been on the trail with fat kids that have slowed the group down and put them in danger and it is not a pleasant place to be. My son is a also a former college lineman and at 6'2" 260 lbs he is just over the limit and has decided not to volunteer as a leader even though he is 22 years old and had done trail crew stints at Philmont and Northern Tier. I pernonally could care less as I am no longer involved with scouting but I feel bad for him as he was hoping to give back to an organization that had given so much to him in the past. I guess he could always lead girl scout troops in the back country.
I think if the Scouts were really serious they would stop pushing heavy gear on kids.
booney_1
05-25-2009, 14:28
Chelko,
I think that there is rampant mis-understanding about the "new" scout rules. First, weight limits (min and max) have been in place for years for places like Philmont and Northern Tier. The new rules apply BMI limits for "special" types of strenuous activities that are far from help.
Most boy scout activities are not high-adventure, but either car camping or a non-strenuous hike in a local park. Without any type of medical waiver your son would be welcome to help with a local troop, it would be great if he did.
I live in NC, and much of the AT is fairly close to an either paved road or fire service road. (much closer than many hikers realize)
I would hope that would be a waiver for people with a high fitness level, but with a high BMI. But you can also see the problems with waivers like that, it often guts the standards. I foresee some problems deciding what "30 minutes" away from a road means also. There are some trails in the state parks around here that quickly put you 30 minutes away from a road, but I would not classify them as strenuous, just long. Walking at 3 mph, means if you are a mile and a half, you are 30 minutes away.
I've never seen stats on volunteer injuries in scouts, but I assume (hope) that this additional rule is in response to problems overweight and unfit volunteer have had in the wilderness.
Scouts need leaders like your and your son to continue, I don't think the rules were written with your type in mind. I hope you both continue to be involoved...
take-a-knee
05-25-2009, 17:08
All this is much ado about nothing. If you can do four or five good dead-hang pullups you likely have sufficient upper body strength, and this is argueable for a hiker 'cause my 19yo daughter can't quite do a pullup but she can keep up with her old man on the trail. But pullups eliminate "fat boy" considerations, it doesn't matter what you weigh if you can carry it, it also doesn't matter how trim you look if you are a weakling.
Also, if you can't run one mile in eight minutes at least, your cardiovascular fitness sucks, regardless of your age and weight. These and other tasks will become easier the trimmer you are. As I've posted here numerous times, people who do Crossfit and eat according to Zone Diet principals don't have a weight problem, they also don't have the myriad of diet-induced health problems that most Americans have.
Desert Reprobate
05-25-2009, 17:32
My problem is not that I'm too fat. It's just that I'm too short.
As others mentioned, body fat percentage is a better (not perfect..but then again what is? :D) than BMI in terms measure of overall health.
FWIW, here are a few stats :
http://www.healthchecksystems.com/bodyfat.htm
(linked from this article in Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_fat_percentage)
Description Women Men
Essential fat 10–12% 2–4%
Athletes 14–20% 6–13%
Fitness 21–24% 14–17%
Acceptable 25–31% 18–25%
Overweight 32-41%+ 26-37%+
Obese 42%+ 38%+
Even more interesting:
http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/bodyfatpercentage.html
Average Body Fat Percentage of Athletes
Sport Male Female Sport Male Female
Baseball 12-15% 12-18% Rowing 6-14% 12-18%
Basketball 6-12% 20-27% Shot Putters 16-20% 20-28%
Body building 5-8% 10-15% Skiing (X country) 7-12% 16-22%
Cycling 5-15% 15-20% Sprinters 8-10% 12-20%
Football (Backs) 9-12% No data Swimming 9-12% 14-24%
Football (Linemen) 15-19% No data Tennis 12-16% 16-24%
Gymnastics 5-12% 10-16% Triathlon 5-12% 10-15%
High/long Jumpers 7-12% 10-18% Volleyball 11-14% 16-25%
Ice/field Hockey 8-15% 12-18% Weightlifters 9-16% No data
Racquetball 8-13% 15-22% Wrestlers 5-16% No data
(Sorry for the formatting..hopefully you get the idea)
Obviously, you can be thin and out of shape..and be very muscular with lousy cardio/endurance (one activity does not always translate to another. I can do 10 pullups, hike all day..but scream for mommy in yoga or anything that requires flexibility and tend to more plod than run. :) )... but fat percentage is a good baseline as any.
As a side note, elite cross country skiers are considered to be the best all-around athletes by many. Excellent cardio, strength and they work their upper and lower bodies. Their VO2 rate is generally through the roof, too.
Note their body fat percentage is about the middle of the pack. For backpackers, esp those who carry the typical heavy BSA scout leader packs, this may be a better baseline than say a skinny ass elite marathon runner. ;)
Overall, I still say a guy pushing 400 lbs ain't gonna be in shape..or my 5'6" doppleganger pushing 300. :) BMI probably works well for the *average* person. I am sure there will be waivers for the college linebacker or if Bruce Willis decides to be a scout leader. ;)
or if Bruce Willis decides to be a scout leader. ;)
I'm afraid this has come full circle....:o
I now recall a leader who wanted to be called "Uncle Bruce" :eek:
They are also checking your credit score. The adults that sign up to help out with summer camp have to sign a form acknowledging that it OK for the BSA to check their credit scores. The BSA wants upstanding citizens as leaders and volunteers, no dead beats allowed!(or fat,gay,whats next????)
Lemni Skate
05-25-2009, 19:03
Organizations as these should have minimum requirements or standards in place - If not this, what universally accepted standard would you recommend?
Real simple allow a doctor, who has had years of training to determine this, not one number that everyone agrees isn't a real accurate measure fitness make the determination.
Let me be clear, the boy scouts can do what they want, I believe in freedom of choice and I can't stand anyone trying to force a group to do something for whatever reason. I just think it's bad to use one number as blind cut-off. I have a degree in statistics (and teach high school statistics) and this is the kind of thing we talk about all the time in class, and we'll probably talk about this in there.
Does the number you're using measure what you say it's measuring? If it does with what margin of error? The less it measures what you want it to measure, the more you need to bring some other data into the mix before you make your decision.
BMI is not a measure of ones ability to safely backpack. It definitely can be ONE of the measures, but it shouldn't be used to slam the door without looking at some other factors.
To me it's like trying to use an IQ test to decide who gets in the national crossword puzzle finals. There's some correlation there, but not enough to make IQ the sole criteria of who can do crossword puzzles.
Rockhound
05-25-2009, 19:55
what's a 9 letter word for the cause of many a fatty-boombalaty's obesity? Starts with M
Sounds like sound policy to me too. I am in favor of protecting children from being in a situation where the person who is responsible for there well being may not even be able to take care of themselves. Even though we cant protect them from everything the numbers say that a person of x weight and y height is at a great enough risk of heart attack that they are not in a condition to have the responsibility to look after children. Look at it simply and logically and with out emotion and you can see this clearly. Also there are many exceptions to the rules such as many of us here who are 50lbs or more over weight and hike regularly....but since the BSA does not have the time to look at this on a case by case basis they have to make rules that cover their bases even if the few exceptions to the rules suffer in the process. Sounds to me like "protect the masses while upseting a few"......
what's a 9 letter word for the cause of many a fatty-boombalaty's obesity? Starts with M
Sniveling starts with an "S". :p
afternoon of beer, good cigars with my 2 oldest sons, 3-4 hours of smoking/grilling good meat, grilling corn on the cob in husks, potato salad, beans, stuffed red peppers (first try - grilled them - prolly a do-again), texas toast - and then some chocolate pie.
yes - i am too fat to hike!
...and - off topic, since I am already way off topic - a few minutes of remembering what the holiday is supposed to be all about.....
Rockhound
05-25-2009, 21:40
This is a hevy subject. I think everyone should lighten up.:D
Wise Old Owl
05-26-2009, 00:15
I think if the Scouts were really serious they would stop pushing heavy gear on kids.
Sorry that is out of line! - Scouting makes good recommendations about gear - Parents take weird shortcuts or create un-knowledgeable disasters for their kids or the boys just do it to themselves.
Where on Earth did you come up with that crap?
Real simple allow a doctor, who has had years of training to determine this, not one number that everyone agrees isn't a real accurate measure fitness make the determination.
Let me be clear, the boy scouts can do what they want, I believe in freedom of choice and I can't stand anyone trying to force a group to do something for whatever reason. I just think it's bad to use one number as blind cut-off. I have a degree in statistics (and teach high school statistics) and this is the kind of thing we talk about all the time in class, and we'll probably talk about this in there.
Does the number you're using measure what you say it's measuring? If it does with what margin of error? The less it measures what you want it to measure, the more you need to bring some other data into the mix before you make your decision.
BMI is not a measure of ones ability to safely backpack. It definitely can be ONE of the measures, but it shouldn't be used to slam the door without looking at some other factors.
To me it's like trying to use an IQ test to decide who gets in the national crossword puzzle finals. There's some correlation there, but not enough to make IQ the sole criteria of who can do crossword puzzles.
We had this going in the military way back when, to see if we were healthy enough to get ourselves killed.:-?
It may just have to do with our ever evolving, for lack of a better word, freedom- and the Scouts need to protect themselves from the lawyers. I don't know if that's a consideration for them; they could be special.:confused:
Gosh, I hope they take this on a case by case basis. I know some of these heavy guys could never make the military or fire and rescue teams, but they are great with scouts and good hikers. And many of them are older, wiser and experienced. I have a good friend that has done scouting trips forever with his sons then other troops and he will not meet the requirement. And he is a lawyer.
Gosh, I hope they take this on a case by case basis. I know some of these heavy guys could never make the military or fire and rescue teams, but they are great with scouts and good hikers. And many of them are older, wiser and experienced. I have a good friend that has done scouting trips forever with his sons then other troops and he will not meet the requirement. And he is a lawyer.
So- he can sue those ingrates!!;) They wouldn't need a policy if they considered things on a case by case basis. I wonder who, really, is going to check leaders and enforce such a policy.:) I'll bet loopholes, big enough to... will provide our slightly over the limit leaders, to slip thru...:-?
So- he can sue those ingrates!!;) They wouldn't need a policy if they considered things on a case by case basis. I wonder who, really, is going to check leaders and enforce such a policy.:) I'll bet loopholes, big enough to... will provide our slightly over the limit leaders, to slip thru...:-?
They don't need a policy at all beyond "if your doctor thinks it's ok"
Lemni Skate
05-26-2009, 06:32
Right. It won't take a whole lot of the boy scout's time to take a slip of paper written by a doctor that says, "Joe Mama is 5 pounds over the weight you're guidelines recommend, but after a complete physical I believe that Joe can participate in Extreme Activity Number 54, without above average risk of a medical emergency occurring."
Right. It won't take a whole lot of the boy scout's time to take a slip of paper written by a doctor that says, "Joe Mama is 5 pounds over the weight you're guidelines recommend, but after a complete physical I believe that Joe can participate in Extreme Activity Number 54, without above average risk of a medical emergency occurring."
Who said anything about a slip of paper?
The point I was trying to make, is people's medical advice should come from people they employ for that purpose. eg: if you want medical advice, get it from your doctor. beyond that, when other people take it upon themselves to make it their business, it's intrusive.
It's bad enough people aren't expected to be responsible for themselves these days, but now we're not even going to LET people be responsible for themselves? It's unnecessary.
what happens when the guy who is 370 lbs and hasn't been to the doctor in 10 years leads your kids into the wood....you cool with that? No one makes him go to the doctor. People can be neglectful and thats why governing bodies need to step in.
maybe we should LET this guy be responsible for himself...good point(sarcasm) Hes done such a good job up to this point....Ive got an idea lets give the guy who doesn't take care of himself a bunch of kids to watch over!!!
Rockhound
05-26-2009, 08:58
I think they should start a "fast food" or "junk food" tax similar to the taxes added to cigarettes and alcohol. After all, the tax dollars spent and medical costs resulting from the number of obese people in our society certainly rival the costs resulting from the use of booze or smokes. I was going to put the sarcasm face here but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. In fact carding unescorted kids at McDonalds might even be a good idea. We don't let em buy smokes or booze. Why let em buy another addictive product that can have a negative affect on their health and well being?
So they want everyone to be straight AND skinny? Ya, good luck with that, boys.
Yeah, because we all know the Str8 gene adds about 35 lbs. :eek:
It is debatable whether or not a Linebacker is in proper shape for a long distance hike, but I wouldn't want to be the one that tries to stop them. :D
Well the actually the form states on Page 3 Part B: Enforcing the height/weight limit is strongly encouraged for all other events, but it is not mandatory.
http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34605_Letter.pdf
I would guess since it is NOT mandatory then it would be up to the Scout Master
booney_1
05-26-2009, 12:37
I think the news story was reporting that starting in January, this would be mandatory not just advisable.
Another reason for these limits is given in the Philmont weight limits. Nobody over 295 is allowed there, regardless of height, age or fitness level.
This is to protect the staff who would be required to remove and transport an injured hiker out of the wilderness.
This same reasoning applies to local hikes and camp outs. I don't think a group of young scouts is going to transport a 370 lb adult with a sprained ankle.
earlyriser26
05-26-2009, 13:35
I'm 6 foot, 265 lbs. I manage to will my fat a$$ up and down the trail.
Rockhound
05-26-2009, 14:30
Could you manage it with an additional 105 pounds? And be responsible for a group of kids at the same time? If your fat, go hike. Have a great time. If you are obese, go hike. Have a great time. It'll do you some good. If you are morbidly obese maybe you should look into some other options before putting yourself and others at risk.
Could you manage it with an additional 105 pounds? And be responsible for a group of kids at the same time? If your fat, go hike. Have a great time. If you are obese, go hike. Have a great time. It'll do you some good. If you are morbidly obese maybe you should look into some other options before putting yourself and others at risk.
A few hours ago at the gym a guy came in and used the treadmill next to me. He was about 5'5" tall and weighed around 300 pounds. I watched as he walked into the gym from the parking lot straight to the treadmill, walked for 10 minutes at 1 mph, and then walked to his car and drove off. I think he was actually walking faster back to his car than he was on the treadmill.
Don't get me wrong, kudos to the guy for doing something, but if that is what we are coming to...:(
saimyoji
05-26-2009, 15:14
went to walmart yesterday and saw a whole family of 6 whales using those electric shopping carts. they were like a gang roaming the store terrorizing with their obesity. reminded me of seinfeld.
saimyoji
05-26-2009, 15:16
went to walmart yesterday and saw a whole family of 6 whales using those electric shopping carts. they were like a gang roaming the store terrorizing with their obesity. reminded me of seinfeld.
i thought of informing them of their exclusion from bsa, but somehow i didn't think they'd care.
went to walmart yesterday and saw a whole family of 6 whales using those electric shopping carts. they were like a gang roaming the store terrorizing with their obesity. reminded me of seinfeld.
Wall-E anyone? :D
http://sf.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/04_09/Picture_13.png
Just as another side note, come on people. Again, using my height as an example, the upper limit for a 5'6" guy is 201 freakin' pounds! (per the chart posted (http://www.troop675wadsworth.org/upldDocuments/Unit289/Ht_Wt_Guidelines%5B1%5D.pdf) earlier in the thread). BMI or not..that's a LOT of extra weight to haul around. Even if I was totally buff (which I ain't), and have 10% body fat (I wish!), I am looking at maybe 180 max as total ripped shape. I think allowing a 201 pound guy 5'6" guy (Even allowing for a naturally stocky/muscular build) is very generous. Saying that these weight restrictions is going to exclude the buff guy is over stating it. Yeah..BMI is not perfect..BUT it is pretty decent for the average person. The ripped rugby player is rather uncommon. ;)
Think about it.
Here's a real life story concerning boy scouts and adult leaders.
My Dad at my age was, to put it bluntly, very fat. He maxed out at 235 lbs. We both have the same build. Like many blue collar workers who are overweight, he also had quite a bit of muscle under the fat. Anyway, he was an adult leader on my Boy Scout trip to Mt. Lafayette via the Old Bridle Path. That route is 6 miles with 2400' out and back. He did it..but was hurting at the end. And that was a day hike with a light pack. Perhaps if he was 35 lbs thinner (due to hiking more. :) ), the trip would not have been as bad. Also, these restrictions are for the "high adventure" trips only. Adult leaders of all shapes and sizes (well, except for atheist and gays. This ex-Catholic atheist will not be welcome. ;) ) are still welcome to lead/participate on the other trips.Do enough of the regular trips and they are probably ready for the more remote ones.
(At age 58, he is considerably trimmer. mid 190s if I had to guess)
I think the news story was reporting that starting in January, this would be mandatory not just advisable.
Another reason for these limits is given in the Philmont weight limits. Nobody over 295 is allowed there, regardless of height, age or fitness level.
This is to protect the staff who would be required to remove and transport an injured hiker out of the wilderness.
This same reasoning applies to local hikes and camp outs. I don't think a group of young scouts is going to transport a 370 lb adult with a sprained ankle.
The form I quoted from is the NEW forum that will be used starting Jan 2010.
The Boy Scouts of America has released a new Annual Health and Medical Record, a new one stop medical record for your use. This new form will replace the former Class 1, 2, and 3 forms, which will be phased out during 2009. The new form, No. 34605, will be required effective January 1, 2010, and for the 2010 National Scout Jamboree.
I hope it is not mandatory because I know that would leave out several adult leaders we have and most of them that would be considered over weight are in better shape than many of the boys in out troop.
J
How often to you camp with your troop when you are over 30 minutes from EMS?
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Guide to Safe Scouting (http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/GSS.aspx)
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Frequently Asked Questions Concerning the Annual Health and Medical Record
Q. Why do we need a new health form?
A. Based on input from individual Scouters, the Order of the Arrow, local councils, health and safety and risk management committees, and high-adventure bases, there was confusion on when to use any of more than 20 different health forms in use across the nation. There was also an immediate need to update a medical form for the 2010 National Scout Jamboree. The Health and Safety Committee took on the challenge and the opportunity to establish one Annual Health and Medical Record for all ages and known risks. It is simple and yet comprehensive enough to be used for both health and wellness evaluations as well as emergency situations.
Q. What are the major changes?
A. A health history is still sufficient for typical activities lasting less than 72 hours (Parts A and C of the new form—similar to the old Class 1 form). For activities lasting longer than 72 hours, a medical evaluation by a health-care provider is now required annually (Part B). For high-adventure activities for which medical care may be delayed, restrictions based on standardized height/weight ratios are now mandatory.
Q. When does the Annual Health and Medical Record go into effect? I am used to the old form and would rather use it.
A. Transition and change can be exciting and easy, especially if it positions the BSA for the future. Everyone should begin using the Annual Health and Medical Record immediately. The existing stock of Class 1, 2, and 3 forms can continue to be used while supplies last in 2009. The only supported form effective January 1, 2010, is the Annual Health and Medical Record. Its use will be mandatory for the 2010 National Scout Jamboree.
Q. Where can I find the Annual Health and Medical Record?
A. It can be found at your council’s Scout shop and is posted in a downloadable PDF format on Scouting Safely on Scouting.org.
Q. Can I keep a record of my Annual Health and Medical Record somewhere at my council’s office or online?
A. Districts and councils are discouraged from keeping any medical records, whether digital or paper, unless required by local or state ordinances. However, the electronic version of the Annual Health and Medical Record is intended to be filled out and saved by individual Scouts and Scouters. The electronic Annual Health and Medical Record should not be transmitted via e-mail or stored by units, districts, or councils. Units are encouraged to keep paper copies of their participants’ Annual Health and Medical Records in a confidential medical file for quick access in an emergency and to be prepared for all adventures.
Q. The old Class 1, 2, and 3 forms were based on age. What about the Annual Health and Medical Record?
A. There is no longer a difference in the exam interval based on age. The Annual Health and Medical Record is for everyone.
Q. There are three parts to the Annual Health and Medical Record, which part do I need to fill out?
A. All participants should fill out Parts A and C for any event. Part B (the physical examination) should be completed if you are participating in an event that exceeds 72 consecutive hours, such as jamborees, summer camps, and Wood Badge training courses. Part B also is required for participation in a resident camp setting or when the nature of the activity is strenuous and demanding such as service projects, work weekends, or high-adventure treks. It is important to note that if the event will take your unit beyond a radius wherein emergency care is more than 30 minutes by ground transportation, the height/weight chart found at the bottom of Part B should be strictly followed. Please note that individual units, districts, or councils may have policies in place to exceed this standard based on their unique risks.
Q. How often will I need to renew/update my Annual Health and Medical Record?
A. This form will need to be updated annually, just as many schools or sporting leagues require an annual update. Many changes can happen throughout a year, including changes in disease processes, medication, address, and insurance.
Q. What is meant by “Annual” and “valid for 12 calendar months”?
A. If you complete your record on March 9, 2009, it will be valid through March 2010, but you must complete a new Annual Health and Medical Record by April 1, 2010. Please note that the 2010 National Scout Jamboree will have a specific window when the record must be submitted.
Q. I have several children in the program and a health care plan that does not provide cheap co-pays for physicals. What can be done to divert the increased cost of participation?
A. Many units, districts, and councils offer physical exams. Facilitating such an event could be a positive experience, as well as decreasing costs. Several county clinics offer physicals at a very low price in order to assist children across the nation maintain a well and healthy life.
Q. I heard a physical for an adult can be very expensive. Is that true?
A. As participants age, physicians (MDs, DOs), NPs, and PAs may require extra testing in order to approve and/or clear their participation in events. Participants who are on medications should already be checked annually.
Q. Do I really need to explain everything about myself or my child, such as learning disabilities or depression? I don’t want myself or my child to be treated differently.
A. As hard as it may be to share these aspects about yourself or your child, this information is needed to structure safe activities and is imperative when giving emergency care. Please be thorough and honest. Our experience also indicates that a Scouting activity is not the place to experiment with or stop medications, especially those that address these issues.
Q. Why do I need to put my child’s or my own social security number on the record?
A. It is your choice as to whether you fill in this number; however, in many states, medical care cannot be rendered without it.
Q. What does “grade completed” mean?
A. If your son has completed the 6th grade and is currently enrolled in 7th grade, you would enter 6th grade here. You may always update your information more frequently than annually.
Q. What if I don’t want to have my child immunized for tetanus or other immunizations due to religious or philosophical reasons, do I have to sign a release?
A. Yes, the recommendations of the immunization task force were accepted by the Health and Safety Support Committee in October 2008 and are listed on Scouting.org under Scouting Safely. If you choose not have your child immunized, the release form can also be found there. Declining or inadequate immunizations will require verification by a certified and licensed physician (MD, DO), NPs, or PAs that a communicable disease is not present. Inadequately immunized participants will be identified so that they can be located in case of a necessity for isolation or quarantine as per local public health official directives
Q. Can I decline medical treatment?
A. Yes, but a release must be signed. The release can be found under Scouting Safely on Scouting.org. This practice is highly discouraged because this choice can put the entire unit at risk, both mentally and physically. Declining medical treatment will require verification by a certified and licensed physician (MD or DO), NP, or PA that a communicable disease is not present.
Q. Can I use another medical exam, such as a school sports exam, and attach it to the Annual Health and Medical Record?
A. No. In an effort to maintain standards of preparedness and fitness for participation, and to make sure that the medical professional conducting the examination knows the various outdoor adventures than can occur in Scouting, the BSA requires completion of Part B. Part B also includes the height/weight chart for high adventure situation where emergency medical care is not readily available.
Q. Why can’t I use the Annual Health and Medical Record for participation at the high-adventure bases?
A. The high-adventure bases have very specific activities that are unique to each of them. They each provided valuable input to position the Annual Health and Medical Record for use in the future. YOU are responsible to Be Prepared for your high-adventure trek and understand and follow all high-adventure base rules, procedures, and guidelines.
Q. Why is there a talent release on the Annual Health and Medical Record? It doesn’t really have anything to do with health.
A. In response to requests from several councils to eliminate paperwork, we have included the talent release as part of the Annual Health and Medical Record.
Q. Can I still use my son’s Class 2 medical form through 2009? It was supposed to be good for 36 months.
A. Yes, if it is still current, unless your council, district, or unit states otherwise. However, remember the Annual Health and Medical Record is required for national Scouting events, including the National Order of the Arrow Conference and the 2010 National Scout Jamboree, and needs to be in place for activities after January 1, 2010.
Q. Our camp is at least 30 minutes from the local hospital by ambulance or EMS. Does this mean that we automatically have to meet the height/weight requirements for all activities at the camp?
A. While response time for basic or advanced life support should be a consideration for a camp’s emergency action plan, it is not the record’s intent. If your travels by foot, bicycle, horseback, afloat, or whatever the mode of transportation take you more than 30 minutes off of an accessible roadway where in an emergency vehicle can reach you, you will need to meet the height/weight requirements.
Q. When does the height/weight chart apply? We have differing opinions in our unit/district.
A. When the Annual Health and Medical Record goes into effect, the height/weight chart will apply in the following known adventure activities:
When your travels take you more than 30 minutes off of an accessible roadway, fire lane, camp road, etc., where you float, walk, hike, bike, or otherwise go into the backcountry. Depending on the terrain and local conditions, this might be a couple hundred yards or a couple of miles into the backcountry.
Most BSA high-adventure camps that include a backcountry component (ask them about their requirements before you go). Philmont Scout Ranch has this standard in place as an example.
When your lodge, unit, district, or council requires it as part of a program.
The height/weight chart generally would not apply (unless your lodge, unit, district, or council says it does) in the following:
The majority of BSA resident camps, as most Cub Scout/Boy Scout resident camps (not high-adventure camps) have drive-up campsites and don’t require packing in or out.
Cub Scout programs. (Backcountry and high-adventure are not age-appropriate for Cub Scouting/)
Wood Badge courses in a typical resident camp setting. Again, Philmont Scout Ranch has this requirement in place.
The 2010 National Scout Jamboree. (http://www.bsajamboree.org/) (However, please review the Be Prepared link (http://www.bsajamboree.org/prepared.html) to review all medical risk factors, including excessive body weight.)
Q. Is the height/weight chart mandatory for the 2010 National Scout Jamboree?
A. No. However, if you review the risk factors on www.bsajamboree.org (http://www.bsajamboree.org/) under the Be Prepared (http://www.bsajamboree.org/prepared.html) tab, you can see that we recommend a body mass index (BMI) of less than 30 (obese) for adult staff positions requiring moderate to high physical exertion. We recommend that youth fall within the 5th and 85th percentiles. As with past jamborees, this 100th Anniversary jamboree promises that everyone will be walking at least 5 miles per day. In order to make this the best, most exciting, fun-filled, safest jamboree ever, being prepared and in the best Scouting shape possible is a must. Youth with BMIs over the 95th percentile and adults with BMIs over 40 (morbidly obese) should reconsider participation. This subject was discussed in the January 2009 issue of Scouting magazine. Watch the jamboree newsletters and Web site for more information.
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How often to you camp with your troop when you are over 30 minutes from EMS?
My wife got the form and it states 30min for ground transportation. The Camp Squanto they use is over 30min from any hospital. May if your credit score is good, they will give you a waiver!(as long as you go to church)
The irony here is that the term 'scouts' implies light fast travel and independance of operation.
Perhaps the best way to enjoy scouting today is not to join the scouts.
Rockhound
05-27-2009, 08:29
My wife got the form and it states 30min for ground transportation. The Camp Squanto they use is over 30min from any hospital. May if your credit score is good, they will give you a waiver!(as long as you go to church)What if someone goes to temple instead? Oh nevermind. Anyone going to temple is sure to have a good credit rating.
What if someone goes to temple instead? Oh nevermind. Anyone going to temple is sure to have a good credit rating.
A lot of scouts go to temple, but probably not the one you are thinking of.
In 2011 they will exclude adult Democrats. By 2012 they will have the Master Race.
My son is so close to getting his Eagle Scout it kills me to have him leave now. But the way BSA is heading.... The Credit check is upsetting parents more than the weight requirement.
We are loosing volunteers over it. They have nothing to hide, it is what gives the BSA the right to check someones Credit score?
My daughter is in Guides and her local unit is really low key and I like that. They do nothing more than day hikes and maybe some stationary camping this summer, but that is ok because I augment that with the longer hikes we do together. Personally I think organizations like Scouting should do nothing more than provide information, and ideas, and perhaps some models to follow, but they should let the local units do whatever they want. They could easily be structured in such a way that the national organization is not vicariously liable for local units. Parents should run local units, not national organizations.
A lot of scouts go to temple, but probably not the one you are thinking of.Yeah about 400,000 Scouts in America :)
The irony here is that the term 'scouts' implies light fast travel and independance of operation.
Perhaps the best way to enjoy scouting today is not to join the scouts.
...from what source of information/experience are you drawing that apparently uninformed conclusion, JAK?
......self-edited......
Lone Wolf
05-27-2009, 13:23
...from what source of information/experience are you drawing that apparently uninformed conclusion, JAK?
......self-edited......
he lives in canada and has a daughter. he knows all about Boy Scouts of America
...from what source of information/experience are you drawing that apparently uninformed conclusion, JAK?
......self-edited......
I only have about 35 years of Scout experience and im sorry to say he is right about that with many Scout Troops.
Scouting has changed A LOT in 35 years, and I would have to say it has changed for the worse due to the fear of more law suits.
I only have about 35 years of Scout experience and im sorry to say he is right about that with many Scout Troops.
Scouting has changed A LOT in 35 years, and I would have to say it has changed for the worse due to the fear of more law suits.
i live in total fear of lawyers....
They problably hike those little kids to death at least my scout master did. He was an ex Marine and we were in practice to be the next class I'm glad nam ended the draft ended and I got to enjoy 4-years of army life in germany zwei Bier, bitte the only german I needed 2 beers please
TIDE-HSV
05-27-2009, 15:30
You mean they never replied with "Dunkels oder Helles?" ;)
I only have about 35 years of Scout experience and im sorry to say he is right about that with many Scout Troops.
thanks for continuting to serve as an adult. "many Scout troops" - that's always been true about not only Scouting, but any volunteer-run organization - if you don't like the way one troop is being run, get involved, take over, and make it better - or go find another troop.....
Scouting has changed A LOT in 35 years, and I would have to say it has changed for the worse due to the fear of more law suits.
....and it has changed in many ways for the better - and continues to produce outstanding young men (and young women - through the Venturing program) of character. To say that one shouldn't get involved in Scouting because of a new medical form is not really something you are defending, are you?
YoungMoose
05-27-2009, 20:31
thats the most idiotic thing i have ever heard. they are sort of turning away kids from getting outdoors. i understand where they were coming from but like come on. Im 6ft and 250pds im large but it doesnt affect my hiking much.
Boy Scouts of America (http://www.scouting.org/)> Scouting Safely (http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety.aspx)> Health and Safety Alerts (http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/Alerts.aspx)> Guidelines for Using Cannons http://www.scouting.org/images/spacer.gif
Guidelines for Using Cannons
http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/Alerts/%7E/media/Images/art/sorg.gif.ashx
Any time a cannon or other large bore artillery device is used for council or district events, the following guidelines must be met. These guidelines do not address shotgun or muzzle loader use. See Guide to Safe Scouting for this. Units are not authorized, under any circumstances, to use a cannon or any other large bore artillery device.
All of the following requirements must be met under these guidelines.
All recommendations/specifications of the manufacturer for using the cannon or other device must be followed.
The type of powder used must be appropriate for the cannon or other device and the load cannot exceed the manufacturer's recommendations or commonly accepted recommendations by firearms authorities.
Powder must be stored according to the regulations of the Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. (www.atf.gov)
The cannon or other device cannot be not loaded with any type of projectile.
The cannon or other device must be certified safe annually by a qualified gunsmith with cannon or large bore artillery device expertise.
The standards of the American Artillery Association must be followed. (www.cwartillery.com/marty/marty.html)
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Wise Old Owl
05-27-2009, 22:32
I give up Panzer what is the point of that post? How is that associated to fat to hike?
I give up Panzer what is the point of that post? How is that associated to fat to hike?
It'll make kids run REALLY fast? :banana
Wise Old Owl
05-27-2009, 22:39
Too funny -actually the cannon is used as a report to lower the American Flag at older Boy Scout Camporee's at the end of the day.
mweinstone
05-27-2009, 22:50
my mom was 400 lbs of love and hiked all over the planet including egypt on a dig and mt charelston in nevada. fattys hike just fine. at their own limits.
Lets make sure we understand the policy and don't read into it, the policy states "...more than 30 minutes off of an accessible roadway where in an emergency vehicle can reach you, you will need to meet the height/weight requirements." How many places that Scouts go are more than 30 minutes from a road? Other than the High Adventure camps such as Philmont there are very few.
I give up Panzer what is the point of that post? How is that associated to fat to hike?
They are requiring both cannons and people to have annual checkups.
Panzer
I only have about 35 years of Scout experience and im sorry to say he is right about that with many Scout Troops.
Scouting has changed A LOT in 35 years, and I would have to say it has changed for the worse due to the fear of more law suits.
The irony is that the fear of legal responsibility causes people to take on more legal responsibility.
skinewmexico
05-28-2009, 09:57
How often to you camp with your troop when you are over 30 minutes from EMS?
Every time. As a general rule, we are over 30 minutes from any kind of road, every time. And rarely within 1 hour of a hospital. Shoot, we're over 1 hour from a Life Flight most places. Not everyone lives or camps in an over-populated part of the world.
The BSA is responsible for a lot of kids. They also get sued a lot, because nothing is just an accident to a parent. It's not a perfect policy, but it is defensible. While most of the adults I've seen affected by this policy (and I'm close) should have been excluded, there would obviously be exceptions to this rule. And I think the BSA should come up with a waiver, based on performance, or a more in-depth evaluation approved by a physician.
I do know that I would hate to try to evacuate a 300# adult, in rough terrain, more than an hour from a road. with just me and six 12 year olds. Maybe you guys have a way to make it easy.
...I do know that I would hate to try to evacuate a 300# adult, in rough terrain, more than an hour from a road. with just me and six 12 year olds. Maybe you guys have a way to make it easy.
As a paramedic working in a coastal region with lots of stilt homes requiring moving a patient down steep and often wet steps, I would love to know how to make moving fat patients easier! Man, it seems like over the last 20 years they have all gotten 50 pounds heavier. Of course my advancing age couldn't have anything to do with it. :-?
skinewmexico
05-28-2009, 11:50
Man, it seems like over the last 20 years they have all gotten 50 pounds heavier. :-?
In all honesty, we have. The Coast Guard was even forced to change the average weight per person used when rating occupancy of recreational boats.
leeki pole
05-28-2009, 12:13
Holy cow, Batman, 6"2' and 370. I guess all the scouts would have to be on the starboard side of the boat if he was on the port side. Sorry guys, but I have no sympathy for overweight people and I'm taking BSA'a stance on this one. Now, the cannon, that's another matter.
I know I've gotten 50 pounds heavier. Working on reversing that.
Now there's a skinny old running man inside me yearning to be free. :)
They could use a combination of BMI and waistline measurement:
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/bmi/
Say for instance allow BMI over 32.5 as long as waist to height ratio was under 0.6
Better yet, use the waist to height ratio alone.
Set the limit at 0.6 for everyone, even those like me with no arms or chest.
I know I've gotten 50 pounds heavier. Working on reversing that.
Now there's a skinny old running man inside me yearning to be free. :)
Yeah, I have 5% body fat, under the other 10%.:)
In all honesty, we have. The Coast Guard was even forced to change the average weight per person used when rating occupancy of recreational boats.
It's affected Disney, too! :)
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2007/11/its-a-fat-world/
Yeah, I have 5% body fat, under the other 10%.:)lol
You're lucky. For myself its more likely 5% under the other 20%. :)
Since I started losing weight my waist line and body fat have been dropping as follows:
I'm 6'0.5" tall:
Weight, Waistline, %BodyFat
230#, 46", 32.0%
225#, 45", 31.1%
220#, 44", 30.1%
215#, 43", 29.0%
210#, 42", 27.9%
205#, 41", 26.8%
My goal is to keep losing about 1" for every 5 pounds. It works out to 1 pound muscle for every 3 pounds of fat, but I think thats ok. I don't mind losing some muscle as long as I am exercising and trying to maintain it, and I am losing at least 3 times as much fat as muscle. I'll keep an eye on it. I do alot of running and my legs are bigger than most runners, but I'm alot heavier also. Maybe I'll try and build some extra muscle up though. I'll lose some more weight first and see.
My immediate goal is to get down to something like...
180#, 36", 20.1%
It's affected Disney, too! :)
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2007/11/its-a-fat-world/
Damn fatties, when I was in Disneyland last summer IASM was closed :(
flemdawg1
05-28-2009, 16:59
It's affected Disney, too! :)
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2007/11/its-a-fat-world/
Dang you Mags, that stupid song is stuck in my head now! :datz
Dang you Mags, that stupid song is stuck in my head now! :datz
I'm here to help...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIabgPX14R4&feature=related