View Full Version : Cave Dog breaks Long Trail speed record
SavageLlama
06-28-2004, 11:04
My plans for a two-week trip on the Long trail this fall with 15-17 mile days suddenly seems very slow..
Man breaks speed hiking record
June 28, 2004
Associated Press Newswires (http://javascript<b></b>:NewWindow(%20'FIISrcDetails','?from=article&ids=aprs');void(0);)
STAMFORD, Vt. (AP) - An Oregon man has broken the speed hiking record for the 273-mile Long Trail, which stretches from one end of Vermont to the other.
Ted Keizer of Coos Bay completed the 273-mile hike from the Canadian border to the Massachusetts border in four days, 13 hours and 15 minutes, hiking almost continuously and mostly alone.
He broke the mark of four days, 15 hours, and 19 minutes established four years ago by Connecticut's Ed Kostak.
"This is all about fun and adventure and being with friends," Keizer said, before starting off on his marathon speed hike. "It's not about a crazy mania. It's about pushing the limits. Definitely, it's an extreme sport, but it's not meant to be some sort of obsession."
Keizer and his support crew of friends and family -- each sporting a canine alias and collectively known as "the Dog Team" -- swung and missed at the Long Trail record last summer. Bad weather and technology breakdowns combined to sabotage the attempt and leave Keizer hallucinating and babbling incoherently 17 miles shy of the Massachusetts state line.
Keizer owns speed-hiking records around the country. He climbed the 46 Adirondack "High Peaks" in three days, 18 hours and 14 minutes. He climbed all 55 peaks over 14,000 feet in Colorado in 10 days, 20 hours and 26 minutes. Last June, he covered 303 miles and 40 peaks over 6,000 feet in the Southern Appalachians in just under five days.
He funds his record-attempts by working all winter as a proofreader for Houghton Mifflin, doing the math in high-school textbooks before they are published.
------
On The Net:
Follow the Hike: www.TheDogTeam.com (http://www.thedogteam.com/)
Lone Wolf
06-28-2004, 11:07
Ed or someone else will break this record. I wonder if he's gutsy enough to attempt to break the AT record.
warren doyle
06-28-2004, 12:05
Congrats to Cave Dog on his success on his second attempt at the Long Trail record. However, it is obvious that his hiking partners contributely greatly to his record unlike Ed Kostak, Pete Palmer, Dave Horton, Courtney Campbell and Sam Swisher-McClure whose records were accomplished mostly by hiking solo with support at road crossings. I admire/respect these gentlemen's records more because of this fact.
Warren Doyle Long Trail record holder (unsupported) 1978-1996
Warren Doyle Long Trail record holder (unsupported) 1978-1996
Hey Warren. What was your time for the record during 1978-1996?
Jeffrey Hunter
Hey Warren. What was your time for the record during 1978-1996?
Jeffrey Hunter
If you would like to hear more about Warren's Wold Renound Record-Setting Long Trail Hike in 1978, you are invited to attend the 2004 ALDHA Gathering. Warren set the record THREE YEARS before the very first Gathering, which this year is set in Pipestem, WV on the weekend of October 8-10.
I'll be at the Gathering. Thanks.
SavageLlama
06-28-2004, 15:23
An updated newswire article added these interesting details..
Until the final few miles, everything had gone according to schedule for <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Keizer</st1:place>. However, a swollen ankle and extreme exhaustion nearly forced him to abandon the mission in the final hours for the second straight year.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
"He had six-tenths of a mile to go and he just sat down and said he couldn't go on," said <st1:place>Keizer</st1:place>'s girlfriend, Ann "Sugar Dog" Sulzer. "He said everything hurt so much that he just couldn't do it. We didn't know if it was just that he was tired and needed some motivation, or if there was really something wrong."
<o:p></o:p>
Sulzer and members of Keizer's support crew asked Cave Dog some basic questions to gauge his coherence, then tried to convince him that his legs would feel better once he started moving again. Eventually, Keizer got up and hiked the remaining stretch with Sulzer and six other members of his 22-person support crew, the Dog Team.
<o:p></o:p>
"It wasn't exactly like jogging - more like stumbling - but he made it," Sulzer said. "At the finish, he collapsed, rolled over and said, 'We did it.' Then he promptly fell asleep." <o:p></o:p>
Because the finish is located three miles away from the closest trailhead, Keizer had to be carried away on an aluminum cot by --emergency medical technicians.
<o:p></o:p>
"He seemed so strong all the way through, that's why we were surprised it happened," Sulzer said. "It's not that he's dehydrated - he's had plenty of glucose and food - it's mainly exhaustion."
<o:p></o:p>
The late problems nearly proved a repeat of Keizer's Long Trail challenge last August, which ended unsuccessfully 17 miles short of the finish.
<o:p></o:p>
This year, however, much dryer weather and improved food and water support helped him negotiate the home stretch and add another record to his collection.
<o:p></o:p>
His other records include hiking the 46 <st1:place>Adirondack</st1:place> "<st1:place><st1:PlaceName>High</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType>Peaks</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>" in three days, 18 hours, 14 minutes. He also climbed all 55 peaks over 14,000 feet in <st1:State><st1:place>Colorado</st1:place></st1:State> in 10 days, 20 hours and 26 minutes. Last June, he covered 303 miles and 40 peaks over 6,000 feet in the <st1:place>Southern Appalachians</st1:place> in just under five days.
Tim Seaver
06-28-2004, 20:16
I ran for a few miles with Cave Dog about 11 miles from the finish.
Congrats to him and the Dog Team on a job well done, he definitely deserved it after last year's amazing effort in horrific weather.
In a post race interview, Ed Kostak has stated that he may attempt to get his record back next June.
Seeing as it's my back yard, I just might take a stab at it myself next summer as well. It would probably be mostly solo with road crossing support.
I also know of another very fast trail runner who is training for it right now, but I am not so sure he knows what he is getting into :)
Jack Tarlin
06-28-2004, 20:48
For all this talk of "records", please keep this is mind:
Organizations such as the Appalachian Trail Conference, which is charged with the care, maintenance, and protection of the A.T., do not keep, maintain, or recognize "records" such as this.
Neither, as far as I know, does the Green Mountain Club, which performs a similar service for the Long Trail.
Nor does the national organization devoted to Long-Distance hiking and backpacking, ALDHA.
Nobody officially keeps track of such records, at least no reputable hiking organization does.
When people speak, re-hash, or boast of such "records", it should be clearly acknowledged and recognized that these "records" are not sanctioned, recognized, or certified by any responsible group, organization, or governing body in the world of hiking or backpacking, and for good reason:
Responsible hiking groups do not wish to recognize, publicize, or glorify such stunt hikes, which they tend to believe degrade the Trails involved; this has been their feeling for quite some time: Each and every official A.T guidebook has for many years deliberately included a statement decrying such activities, which the ATC clearly feels are detrimental to the Trail.
How individuals may feel about such "records" is, of course, up to the individual. But as to how the ATC and other groups feel about such efforts---about this there is no question. No responsible hiking group keeps track of such "records", nor does it recognize, acknowledge, or publicize them.
Their reasons for feeling this way are as obvious as they are long-standing.
Lone Wolf
06-28-2004, 20:56
Who cares what the ATC/GMC thinks? These guys are extreme athletes putting thier bodies thru hell. They don't care about recognition, awards, certificates. It's THE CHALLENGE! I've been involved in several speed/record attempts. Fun stuff! And the trails are in no way degraded by these "stunts". :rolleyes:
Jack Tarlin
06-28-2004, 21:32
Wolf--
Quick question: If, as you say, these folks don't care about recognition or acknowledgement, then how on earth do we find out about such ventures?
Could it possibly be due to press releases, announcements, and other publicity-seeking efforts that these folks put out before, during, and after their trips?
For folks who are allegedly doing this sort of "extreme" athletic exercise for the pure personal challenge, it's pretty funny that we hear so much from them---at least when they're successful. (They're awfully quiet when they don't make it, which leads one to ask.....is it the athletic challenge they're truly interested in, or the possibility of fleeting fame that comes about upon "successful" completion of it?)
Or to put it another way----if these folks don't care about being recognized, Wolf, then how is it that they're so easy to recognize? Some of 'em put out press annoiuncements 20 minutes after completing their "record" trip; some of 'em insist on being known for it 20 years later, and bring it up on every available occasion.
Your contention that these folks don't wish for recognition is simply untrue.
What we're talking about here, in addition to alleged "extreme" athleticism, is publicity seekers seeking publicity, and to pretend otherwise is ridiculous.
Lone Wolf
06-28-2004, 21:42
So what? Why are YOU so concerned? You do your thing and they're doing theirs. No harm done.
Jack Tarlin
06-28-2004, 21:54
The phrase "no harm done" is open to interpretation.
The ATC has made it manifestly clear, time and time again, that it disapproves of such publicized activities, and that it feels such activities are a detriment to the Trail and ultimately degrade the Trail.
However, anyone who can baldly state "Who cares what the ATC thinks?" isn't going to be swayed by any sort of argument, so debating this is a questionable enterprise. I care what the ATC thinks, and so do most folks who genuinely care about the Trail.
Fact is, the organization that takes care of the AT feels that such stunt-hikes and publicity-seeking is bad for the Trail----and every other responsible Trail group feels the same way.
There are those who may feel that such chest-thumping exercises in self-glorification should be absolved from criticism, as there is "no harm done." by taking part in them.
Responsible folks, including those who have been caretaking the Trail since before Wolf or I were born, think otherwise. I'll defer to them.
Lone Wolf
06-28-2004, 21:57
Certain other stunt hikes are ok especially if you endorse them, right?
Tim Seaver
06-28-2004, 21:58
The AMC, ATC, and GMC have far better things to do with their time than to maintain and/or officiate speed record attempts. I am still trying to picture an AMC official waiting for me at the summit of Moosilauke at 2 am in a rainstorm so he can record my "official" time for the Wild Whites Ultra, and am having a bit of difficulty.
As far as "degrading" the mountains, a similar argument scould be made about people who hike the AT multiple times - "it's not a commuter route, fer cryin' out loud!" Can you imagine what the AT would look like if everyone hiked it 6 or 7 times? What makes that any less of a "stunt"?
The implication that the handful of people who are dedicated enough to attempt these amazing feats are somehow phoney simply beacuse the organizations who maintain the trails don't officially recognize them is pure BS.
Thankfully, most of the people who I have met while involved in these challenges don't have such a dismissive attitude. Almost everyone that I have met on the trail while training or on an actual challenge have been quite sociable as we meet on the trail, and are generally pretty excited about what I am doing, so I still fail to see how anyone's experience is ruined or even lessened by having an encounter with a trail runner. Perhaps someone could spell out for me how their hike was degraded by a trail runner? How does one differentiate between an everyday trail runner and a record setter, anyway? Are there distinguishing marks ?
While these organizations are free to ignore these records, more than a few publications ( Backpacker and Trail Runner, for example) are glad to pick up the ball and report on these mountain adventures. So let the detractors piss and moan all they want, they won't be able to stop the spirit of adventure that lives within individuals like Cave Dog, Bob Marshall, Pete Palmer, Guy Waterman, and many others.
Mountain Dew
06-28-2004, 22:04
I see nothing wrong with what he does. I believe in HYOH, but I wonder who paid for the emergency help he needed at the end of his hike. His trail "crew" should have carried him out instead of abusing 911. What he does is kindof cool to read about, but a label of extreme athlete ? hahahaaaa yeah o.k. :jump
I am not usually impressed by speed hike attempts. I do think that hiking/running the Long Trail in less than 5 days is a fairly impressive feat. It's definitely not my cup of tea! I don't consider myself a peak bagger either.
I learned about Cave Dog from Don Walton, President of the Carolina Mountain Club. The CMC assisted Cave Dog during his South Beyond 6000 attempt last year. Don told me about it at a recent Coalition meeting that he & I attended.
Here's a link to the South Beyond 6000 page on the Carolina Mountain Club web page. There is some interesting information on that page.
http://www.carolinamtnclub.com/SB6K/SB6K%20Index.htm
Lone Wolf
06-28-2004, 22:08
hahahaha Dew. You're clueless as to what it takes. :D
Jack Tarlin
06-28-2004, 22:13
Aw, gee, Wolf. It's pretty easy to see where you're going with this. It's time to beat up on a one-legged guy again, no? Does doing this make you feel better about yourself? Does it bother you that much that a one-legged guy has about a thousand more A.T. miles this year than you or I do? Why do you keep harping on this anyway? This is about the ninth time you've done this, it's getting tired.
Sorry, Wolf, I'm not buying it. See, Scott Rogers is hiking to raise awareness for people trying to overcome disabilities, and to provide inspiration to a little boy who's had to deal with losing a limb to illness. And that's what his trip is all about. Any doubts----check out his website, which clearly defined his hopes and goals well before he started hiking.
Speed hikers do their thing for bragging rights and because they think it impresses people. And so it does, at least those who are easily impressed.
They do it for recognition, period, which is the point I made a few minutes ago---a point, by the way, that you haven't either disputed or disproven. I mean, you were quite ardent that they weren't interested in recognition, but you kinda failed to prove your contention......if these guys do it for reasons other than pride and publicity, please inform us.
Oh---just in case you think I'm avoiding your question. Yeah, I approve of Scott Rogers' hike and what he is doing. I wish him well and hope he stays on the Trail as long as he wants to. His hike is NOT about him, and if you knew him, or had spent more than 3 minutes with him, you'd know this. But you don't, so debating this is a waste of time.
Enough for now, I'm off to check out Fox News for awhile; I need to hear from someone tonight who makes sense.
Mountain Dew
06-28-2004, 22:18
I'm clueless as to what it takes to run/hike a trail ? hahahahaaaaa o.k. ....you say that without knowing my athletic background. I was tempted to put you in your place by telling you my atheltic background, but I'll refrain. I'm not sure what's funnier....a 300 pound biker telling me about atheticism or calling speed hiking an extreme sport. Nice one....
Like I said....I think what he did was cool. HYOH...
Lone Wolf
06-28-2004, 22:21
Big Yawn! :rolleyes:
No trail group with any responsibility for the trail is going to endorse projects like this. Running an uneven pathway when exhausted is dangerous. It is probably the responsible thing to officially discourage such use. I notice that there aren't any laws against this, and probably none will be seriously espoused.
Doesn't really bother me. I have to admire the stamina. If it were an everyday occurrence, I might have a different opinion.
Tim Seaver
06-28-2004, 22:28
The Barkley is considered one of the toughest 100 mile races in the world. It has 52,900 feet of climb (and 52,900 feet of descent), more than any other 100 mile race, more than the 33,000 ft. of climb at Hardrock (http://www.mattmahoney.net/2001/hr.html), and more than the 45,000 ft. at Nolan's 14 (http://www.mattmahoney.net/nolans14/).
Since the race began in 1986, only 6 runners out of 500 have finished within the 60 hour cutoff. Mark Williams of the UK finished first in 1995 in 59:28. Here (http://www.mattmahoney.net/barkley/bark100.txt) is his race report. In 2001, after several failed attempts, Blake Wood, 42, NM, and David Horton, 50, VA, finished together in 58:21, only to be disqualified for inadvertently leaving the course to follow a parallel route for about 200 yards. This route (on the south side of the stream instead of the north side) has slightly better footing and had been the normal route until 2000.
To give you some idea of the difficulty of this course, Blake had won the 2001 Rocky Raccoon 100 in 16:13, and the 1999 Hardrock 100 in 30:11. David Horton won Hardrock in 29:35 in 1993 and held the course record for the Appalachian Trail (2160 miles in 52 days) until recently.
Cave Dog (Ted Keizer) finished in 56:57 in 2003. He holds the Colorado 14er speed record, 54 14,000 ft. peaks in 10 days, 20:26. He also holds speed records in the White Mountains, Adirondacks, and Catskills. (See www.thedogteam.com (http://www.thedogteam.com/)). He trained for 2 weeks on the course before the race.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How do YOU define extreme?
Lone Wolf
06-28-2004, 22:35
Hey Dew, I've run David Horton's 50 mile Mountain Masochist Trail Run several times with a best time of 8hrs 37mins placing 21st of 180 runners then 1 month later ran the JFK 50 miler in a time of 8hrs 12mins placing 32nd of 450 runners. Can you top that? :D
Mountain Dew
06-28-2004, 22:44
To embarress you in this thread would be fun, but how about send me an email with a list of your questions so that we can keep this thread on topic. That way you won't have to pretend to be so carefree on whiteblaze and really let your anger out. :D
smokymtnsteve
06-28-2004, 22:45
I took TWO WEEKS to traverse the smokies in the fall of 1999...of course this included a side trip to mt leconte...can you beat that???
,,,cause in my memory that trip is hard to beat!
Jack Tarlin
06-28-2004, 22:46
In case anyone's interested, especially Mr. Seaver:
The ATC feels very strongly about this sort of thing. Their feelings and sentiments are so pronounced that the following statement has been re-printed in ALL of their Trail Guidebooks for more years than I can remember:
"Special events, group hikes, or other group activities that could degrade the Appalachian Trail's natural or cultural resources should be avoided. Examples of such activities, some of which are banned or regulated by federal law, include publicized spectator events, commercial or competitive activities, or programs involving large groups."
It is hard to see how a stunt like a speed "record" breaking hike could be viewed as anything other than a "special event," a "publicized" event, or a "competitive activity." In short, self-aggrandizing, self-promoting extreme record-setting is EXACTLY the sort of activity that the ATC feels is in direct opposition to the purpose of the Trail. They make it very clear: This is degrading behavior that should be avoided.
The feeling and perception that this sort of activity is detrimental to the Trail is the studied, thoughtful opinion of the organization that has done a remarkable job taking care of the Trail for something like eighty years; I'm inclined, as I previously said, to defer to their opinion.
Well. As Lone Wolf so eloquently put it, this debate is turning into a "Big Yawn." I'm off to bed.
Lone Wolf
06-28-2004, 22:49
Just post what you've done that is athletically extreme, Dew.
Mountain Dew
06-28-2004, 22:56
Somebody obviously is trying to make up for lack of attention as a child. Stick to the topic and send your childish chest thumping for personal emails chubby.
Lone Wolf
06-28-2004, 22:59
I guess you haven't done anything other than a regular ole thru-hike huh cupcake? Stiks and stones girlie man. You ain't so buff either. :p Soon you'll be one of those fat, donut munchin cops eh? :D
smokymtnsteve
06-28-2004, 23:07
well there was that time in early May of 2000 when I left RAINBOW Springs Campground (pirate had been there too same year the truck burned) where I had been for a month...I cheated I got dropped off at Winding stair gap ..spent the first night out on top of silers bald...and then made it all the way to Wine spring for the second night,,the next day was a long day to COLD SPRING SHELTER...after all that speed hiking I took a break and only went about a mile the next day to ROCKY BALD where I cowboyed out and watched a great sunset..because I was so well rested I got up real early and saw the cresent moon rise in the east just about an hour before sunrise...now that's extereme...the next day I made it all the way to Wesser Bald shelter..Iate a real big supper there that night...and because I was running out of food I skipped the next shelter and went all the way into NOC for dinner.
SO it took me..6 days and 5 nights to walk from franklin to NOC ..i must be almost 40 miles across there.
Lone Wolf
06-28-2004, 23:09
YOU have a sense of humor. Unlike your buddy. :D
Mountain Dew
06-28-2004, 23:36
lone wolf... "I guess you haven't done anything other than a regular ole thru-hike huh cupcake?" --- hahahaa Just because I don't feel the need to chest thump online doesn't mean my answer wouldn't put you in your place chubby.
Remember the school yard bully ? The fat kid that was the most insecure guy on the playground so he went around trying to pick every other kid ? They got great satifaction from all the attention they got ....be it good or bad because they lacked it at home. Well....I'll be if one of them hasn't found a new playground....the internet. Chest thump all you want, but I refrain and try for once to stay on topic.
I think what he did was cool by doing the LT so fast.
slowroller
06-29-2004, 00:22
Ladies and gentlemen....... in the left corner...........hahaha just kiddin guys.. :D
Lone Wolf
06-29-2004, 08:04
I think Dew has a thing for chubby, fat men. :D I'm taken, by a lady, but I know of other trail legends that swing his way and are available. :)
warren doyle
07-20-2004, 14:23
Jeffrey,
My unsupported Long Trail record (August 1978) was 8 days, 13 hours and 25 minutes. It broke the record set in the early 70's by the fully supported US Nordic Ski Team of a little over 10 days.
My record was not broken until 1996 when one member of a VT high school cross country running team shortened it by a few hours with full support.
Another record was established by a Middlebury College student, Sam Swisher-McClure, during the summer of 1997. Sam went on to establish the still existing half-way point record (Springer to Pine Grove Furnace State Park) of 24 days during the summer of 1998.
Sam's LT record of 1997 was broken in 1998 by Courtney Campbell.
Courtney's LT record was in broken in 1999 by David Horton.
David's LT record was broken in 2000 by Ed Kostak.
Ed's record was recently broken by Cave Dog (and his team of support hikers/crew).
It should be an interesting summer (2005) on the Long Trail concerning record attempts.
I look forward to the drama of these 'folk' attempts at expanding the limits of human endurance.
As to Chomp's post #5, there is no scheduled program at the Gathering 2004 concerning my 1978 Long Trail hike. Sorry to disappoint you Chomp. However, there will be a workshop on long-distance endurance hiking for all those interested in finding out more this style of hiking, whether you agree with it or not.
I'm sorry in my delayed response to you Jeff but I have be 'on-trail' and 'off-line'.
Tim Seaver
07-20-2004, 15:51
Thanks for the chronology, Warren.
I don't know if you saw the Times Argus interview with Ed Kostak, but he mentioned taking another shot at it next summer.
I was wondering what your definition of "support" is, as this is something that seems to be ill-defined in the realm of speed hiking. Many of the trail runners in the west use self-support caches on some of the longer runs - is this something you would consider "support" or does it require interaction with a human?
Pencil Pusher
07-20-2004, 19:30
My take on supported versus self-supported is that self-supported is self sufficient. Caching... that's a grey area I hadn't thought of. I'd be more inclined to think that was 'supported'. It's just differentiating between doing it yourself and having the help of others. Caching is, in effect, having a friend waiting for you on the trail with goodies, I think.
i tip my hat to him. but whats the piont if i wanted to set recoreds i would run around a nascar track .
warren doyle
07-21-2004, 14:58
Good question Tim.
My definition of 'support' has a physical 'human' connection other than the endurance walker.
A food cache placed out on the trail by the walker themselves is 'unsupported'. A phone call home for some words of encouragement is 'unsupported'.
'Supported' refers to another person actually helping out the endurance walker while they are trying to set a new standard. These would cover a vehicle driver, cook, pacer, and accompanying walker. There are different levels of support.
Cave Dog was 'fully supported'. The former LT record holders had a more traditional form of support - one or two suport van personnel and limited hiking companionship.
I hope this answers your question.
You also posted that you may go for an LT endurance standard next summer as well. I will look forward to see what develops.
Pencil Pusher
07-21-2004, 15:30
So Warren, what is the difference between a friend holding a bag of goodies and a cache? Both were pre-placed and not contributing to the 'course', per se. Yet they are both artificial. The hiker could place these caches several months in advance with out any detriment to his physical state before attempting the 'official' hike. So it makes no difference whether he does it himself or a friend does it for him. Well, that's my take on it.
warren doyle
08-03-2004, 11:23
A cache is a non-entity. If you need something else and you don't have it in your cache, you do without or face a time-consuming hitch/walk into town.
A person meeting you at road crossings would probably have a car and get you what you needed in a shorter amount of time.
Time is of the essence in endurance hiking. A support individual/team saves you time and gives you more flexibility to meet the unexpected along the journey.
Having people walk with you through the night helping to keep you awake (and walking) is about the most intensive/dependent support an endurance hiker can have.
The questions remain: Would Cave Dog have been able to shorten the LT record by 2 hours if he didn't have a support crew to walk with him at night helping to keep him awake? And what if he was alone when he stopped .6 from the end?
Looking forward to seeing the outcome of more traditional attempts at the LT record next summer.
Hail to the amateur, non-commercial, noble deeds of the long-distance endurance hikers and their support teams no matter how large or small the may be!
To me, they are the true Olympians!
Looks like Cave Dog just added another record to his long list of accomplishments.
Way to go, Cave Dog!
http://outside.away.com/outside/news/20051130_1.html
betic4lyf
12-02-2005, 17:41
i am impressed. did he do it for recognition? at least partially. but what is the big diffrence between him, and someone who hiked the AT and wrote a book about it. not the same, but neither imply humility, and both are profiting economically from the trail. if you want to demonize him, go ahead, but also demonize anyone else who profits economically from the trail
as to support, i feel like it is cheap to be constantly supported. i tamkes it to much of simply a physical challenge, and ignores other things.
I'm unimpressed. Speed hikes and the like remind me of a reproduced art print. It might look like art but it ain't. It might look like a hike, but it ain't. Just some guy running through the woods on a HIKING trail and declaring victory.
Don't tell me you guys think speed eating is a sport too?
Looks like I attached my link to the end of the wrong thread. I'll try again.
The link was to Cave Dog's latest coup, which was to hike 50 miles in each of the 50 states.
But I'll post it again in the correct thread
DaSchwartz
12-03-2005, 22:06
These speed hikers do less harm on the environment than slower hikers. They don't veer off trail and damage the habitat, they don't camp or camp nearly as much as others do, they don't build campfires, and they pee and poop less per mile than other hikers.
Take a look at Tarlin and the 1,000s of cigarette butts he leaves in the woods. That is an example of someone who does far more harm to the trails than these speed hikers.
Jack Tarlin has many times done stunts himself on the AT like climbing on mountains with a cigarette in his mouth to get pictures taken for magazines and such. Tarlin went out of his way to hook up with "one leg" just to get attention.
So don't give us this **** Tarlin that you aren't a publicity seeker, your record proves otherwise.
Whistler
12-03-2005, 22:25
So anyway, back to Cave Dog... He had a pretty cool adventure. As far as competitive records go, it's sort of a yawner, but it sounds cool to do just for kicks. Pick your own route, your own trails, your own timeframe. Sample the country. Kind of like seeing a game in all the MLB stadiums in one season.
-Mark
warren doyle
12-04-2005, 00:27
Congratulations to Cave Dog on his latest adventure in honor of Bob Marshall - a fitting memorial to this man's spirit!
I'm unimpressed. Speed hikes and the like remind me of a reproduced art print. It might look like art but it ain't. It might look like a hike, but it ain't. Just some guy running through the woods on a HIKING trail and declaring victory.
Don't tell me you guys think speed eating is a sport too?
Cave Dog isn't a speed hiker per se. He sets records by hiking 20 hours a day at a 2.5-3 mile an hour pace. We need sleep, he doesn't. You going to fault him for that?
Cave Dog isn't a speed hiker per se. He sets records by hiking 20 hours a day at a 2.5-3 mile an hour pace. We need sleep, he doesn't. You going to fault him for that?
I'm not faulting anyone. To each his own and all that. There are certainly worse things in this world than speed hiking. However, to make sport out of something that is intrinsically tied to enjoying nature on nature's terms, stopping to smell the roses so to speak, seems to be an oxymoron. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it's automatically deserving of praise.
It seems so obviously wrong to me I don't know how to describe it. Just the idea of claiming a record involving speed and hiking seems pointless to me. I don't want you to think I'm judging him personally. It just makes sport of something I hold very dear to my soul and I guess I find it a little offensive for someone to claim to be breaking records in what I consider to be my sanctuary. And a sanctuary has no place for records or egos and that's all I can see in this.
Don't get me too wrong. I recognize there is a fine line here. I'm sure he does his thing out of a natural love to do it, but it just seems like an arbitrary record. It's almost comical to me. Like speed sleeping or slow walking or speed eating or whatever. "I don't piss in your pool don't swim in my toilet" kinda thing. Not a perfect analogy but close enough.
Like I said I don't fault him, I'm just unimpressed.
I'm not faulting anyone. To each his own and all that. There are certainly worse things in this world than speed hiking. However, to make sport out of something that is intrinsically tied to enjoying nature on nature's terms, stopping to smell the roses so to speak, seems to be an oxymoron. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it's automatically deserving of praise.
But three mph is normal walking speed and 2.5 mph is a leisurely stroll. I'm sure he has enough time to enjoy the surroundings.
I do understand what you're trying to say about records and their place in what you consider to be a purely recreational experience. I can't say I agree but that is *my* opinion. To each his own experience, HYOH, etc...
I am sure he has a great time or he wouldn't continue to do it.
Who makes the rules? Traditional, untraditional, normal support, human and non human support. I remember reading about a guy on the JMT who had a pacer- but in his rulebook, was considered unsupported.:confused: I do find it very amusing to hear Warren argue the merits of an unsupported hike. That's good stuff :p
It was nice to hear about Ed Kostack, didn't realize he was a speed hiker.
warren doyle
12-04-2005, 11:56
Sly (post #50) makes a good point. I don't see walking for 15-18 hours a day as speed (or running for 13-15 hours a day). I see this activity as more like a combination of endurance and perserverance - two qualities I admire in the human condition. What better place to rediscover these qualities than on our long distance trails. All of the long distance trail endurance record holders that I know of have done it for intrinsic reasons. I doubt if any professional or Olympic athlete would ever even attempt a long distance trail endurance record attempt. Also, all of the long distance trail endurance record holders that I know of do have an appreciation and respect for their natural surroundings. That is why they choose this environment to find out how much they can 'give and take' of themselves.
Hail to the true folk heros:
David Horton
Ed Kostak
Pete Palmer
Cave Dog
Andrew Thompson (Trail Dog)
Sam Swisher-McClure
Courtney Campbell
Scott Grierson
And to other endurance hikers of the past -
Myron Avery
John Muir
Bob Marshall
Earl Shaffer
Branly Owen
Warren Doyle
Jon Avery
The Wall
Ward Leonard
What better place to rediscover these qualities than on our long distance trails.
How about on the Atlantic, Ray Jardine style? He rowed across. Or on a mountain top, Humar style? http://www.humar.com/en/index.php
Talk about places for discovery!
Whether you agree with it or not, hiking 35-55 miles per day, day after day, takes an extreme amount of perseverance and physical toughness and not any out of shape, fat ### is going to be able to pull it off. The mental discipline to walk (and sometimes jog) such huge miles when tired or in pain for such a long journey is impressive im my opinion.
Regardless of the level of support, the person still has to make the miles. Go walk 40 miles on level ground in perfect weather with just a water bottle and a fanny pack and see if you feel like doing it the next day. And the person striving for an endurance/speed record doesn't have the choice of only hiking in ideal conditions!
Tim Seaver
12-04-2005, 13:30
Also, all of the long distance trail endurance record holders that I know of do have an appreciation and respect for their natural surroundings. That is why they choose this environment to find out how much they can 'give and take' of themselves.
Hail to the true folk heros:
David Horton
Ed Kostak
Pete Palmer
Cave Dog
Andrew Thompson (Trail Dog)
Sam Swisher-McClure
Courtney Campbell
Scott Grierson
And to other endurance hikers of the past -
Myron Avery
John Muir
Bob Marshall
Earl Shaffer
Branly Owen
Warren Doyle
Jon Avery
The Wall
Ward Leonard
Well put, Warren! I second the motion.
And congratulations to Ted and the Dog Team on their successful completion of another grand adventure. Bob Marshall would heartily approve :D
Everyone on that list has my respect, but "True Folk Heros"?
Why not.
Its the INTERNET, hyperbole is part of the e-language. :-)
Ooops. Double posted below.
Whether you agree with it or not, hiking 35-55 miles per day, day after day, takes an extreme amount of perseverance and physical toughness..
Never said it didn't. Personal feats are indeed amazing but keep them personal. When you start attaching the term "Record" to what should just be a personal accomplishment then you open yourself to criticism.
If someone is so anxious to "break records" on the trail then there are many sanctioned events in which to gain glory. Olympics, triathlons and other events where the other contestants are competing as well. I could just as easily drive my car in some marathon no-sleep session and claim I beat everyone behind me.
Hike all day, hike all night, hell run the whole AT without stopping. I will be impressed, but attach a record or trophy to it and all you'll get from me is a confused look.:confused:
Tim Seaver
12-04-2005, 14:30
... I guess I find it a little offensive for someone to claim to be breaking records in what I consider to be my sanctuary.
But it's not your sanctuary.
It's all of ours, and we all have different ways of enjoying it.
Bob Marshall had no problem with the concept of breaking records even while acknowledging that it was on the same level as flagpole sitting.The fact that he founded the Wilderness Society seems to suggest that his record-breaking behavior was not at odds with respecting nature.
Thus I have carried a little farther the fantastic pastime of record climbing, adding three to Malcolm's total of eleven.... In fact, it would fit perfectly in a class with flagpole sitting and marathon dancing as an entirely useless type of record, made only to be broken, were it not that I had such a thoroughly glorious time out of the entire day. -Bob Marshall
If it was good enough for Bob, it's good enough for me.
Hail to the true folk heros:
David Horton
Ed Kostak
Pete Palmer
Cave Dog
Andrew Thompson (Trail Dog)
Sam Swisher-McClure
Courtney Campbell
Scott Grierson
And to other endurance hikers of the past -
Myron Avery
John Muir
Bob Marshall
Earl Shaffer
Branly Owen
Warren Doyle
Jon Avery
The Wall
Ward Leonard
I'd sure like to learn about these hikers. Some are well known but some aren't. Googling Branley Owen, Jon Avery or The Wall didn't turn up anything. Does anyone have links to some sort of biography for these hikers?
Too Tall Paul
Jack Tarlin
12-04-2005, 16:38
"Long distance trail endurance record holders?"
What in hell does this designation mean, and who gives it?
And I sure don't know why Earl Shaffer is on this list. He never viewed the Trail as something to be endured or rushed.
He was indeed the "fastest" person to hike the Trrail for awhile, but only because he was the ONLY person to have thru-hiker for awhile. He'd have NEVER been the type to seek out or brag about speed records or any other stunt. That's not what he was about.
There are certainly folks in the hiking community who are impressed by "speed records", despite the fact that neither the ATC, ALDHA, or any other responsible hiking organization keeps or reognizes such "records," (the ATC, by the way, flatly discourages this sort of publicity-seeking) but the phrase "trail endurance record holder" is a bit silly. This is a designation that exists only in the eyes of those to whom who think such a designation is somehow impressive, and Earl Shaffer was decidedly not one of these folks.
I assure you, if he were alive today, and if anyone said to Earl, "Wow! For awhile you were the A.T. long-distance speed record holder!" he'd have given the person a funny look, shaken his head, and said, "No, that's not what I'm about, and that's not why I was out there."
One from the Web:
June 14, 1970. Branley Owen set a new record by hiking the Appalachian Trail in 73 days.
Even more interesting is that it got him an appearance on "To Tell the Truth".
As I understand it, later record hikers have not been so honored, but have had the oportunity to participate in Trivia games on a smaller stage.
And I sure don't know why Earl Shaffer is on this list. He never viewed the Trail as something to be endured or rushed.
While that might be true, I wish that the ATC respected his record.
Even today, the ATC introduces him as the first person to REPORT having thru hiked the Trail on their website.
Those that knew Mr. Shaffer personally might have better knowledge as to how the ATC's acceptance of the Boys Scouts' claims to have done it earlier may or may not have affected Earl Shaffer.
Personally, I wish that the ATC respected Earl's record better. No matter whether that was important to Earl or not.
Tim Seaver
12-04-2005, 17:04
I assure you, if he were alive today, and if anyone said to Earl, "Wow! For awhile you were the A.T. long-distance speed record holder!" he'd have given the person a funny look, shaken his head, and said, "No, that's not what I'm about, and that's not why I was out there."
And while we are speaking for dead people...
I would assure you that if Bob Marshall was alive today, and if anyone said to Bob "Wow, for awhile you were the 14 ADK peaks-in-a-day record holder", he would have smiled, nodded his head, and said something to the effect of "Well, it is an entirely useless type of record, made only to be broken, but what fun it was - I hope what I have done will encourage others to engage in such frivolous, yet immensely fufilling pursuits"
And then he would have taken off down the winding trail...at a damn good clip.
Hate to break it to you, but you know nothing of what motivates the speed hiker, "Jack".
Perhaps you are projecting your own need for attention?
Jack Tarlin
12-04-2005, 17:13
Hate to break it to you, Tim, but did you know or ever actually spend significant time with Earl Shaffer? I kinda doubt it.
And as far as needing projection and attention, Tim, it's a funny thing, but every time a guy sets out to break a "speed record" on the Trail, we hear all about it, before, during, and especially after they do it. (We don't hear much when they fail, however).
We hear all about it, Tim, cuz these folks REALLY want everyone to know what they're up to, and what a cool thing it is they're doing, and how important it is that everyone finds out all about it....hence the news stories, press releases, bragging about it for years afterwards, etc.
If anyone is seeking undue attention on the Trail, Tim, it's these folks, and not me.
Tim Seaver
12-04-2005, 17:31
We hear all about it, Tim, cuz these folks REALLY want everyone to know what they're up to, and what a cool thing it is they're doing, and how important it is that everyone finds out all about it....hence the news stories, press releases, bragging about it for years afterwards, etc.
If anyone is seeking undue attention on the Trail, Tim, it's these folks, and not me.
Hate to break it to you, "Jack", but you are full of it.
In 1973 an 18 year old boy scout named Richard Denker ran the Northville Placid Trail in New Yorks Adirondacks - a distance of 122 miles, in a smidgen over 40 hours, with the support of his Boy Scout troop. This, in a time where trail running was unheard of.
Do you know WHY he ran the trail, "Jack". Obviously, not.
His scout leader had proposed the run as a way to bring attention to the trail, which was falling into disrepair.
This information is from a letter I received from Mr. Denker himself, after breaking his 32 year old record by 3 hours this August.
I must say, once again, you simply have no idea what motivates people to take on these challenges.
And that's a fact, "Jack".
If anyone is seeking undue attention on the Trail, Tim, it's these folks, and not me.
Jack Tarlin
SelfBiography:
8 Hikes of entire A.T since 1995, including 7 consecutive Northbound thru-hikes, 1997-2003. Am primarily interested in helping and assisting first-time thru-hikers with their trip planning and preparations, and am always available to do so.
I like seeing Jack's name show up in Backpacker and other spots. But for some reason I doubt he ever sent out a press release.
Not that any of these other folks did either (or that doing so would be wrong), but I would bet a years' wages that Jack never bothered.
.
Jack Tarlin
SelfBiography:
8 Hikes of entire A.T since 1995, including 7 consecutive Northbound thru-hikes, 1997-2003. Am primarily interested in helping and assisting first-time thru-hikers with their trip planning and preparations, and am always available to do so.
This seems a little unfair. If the guy is offering help and advice to future hikers, wouldn´t it be nice to know his credentials. From spending a lot of time on the AT the past few years, I can tell you Jack doesn´t need to boast about his hikes. Enough people never stop talking about him and his hikes without his help!
Guess Who :D
AT, PCT, CDT, LT... JMT '05!
Interests:
Currently working on the Triple Gem!
Occupation:
20,000 miles or Bust!
Jack Tarlin
12-04-2005, 18:07
Hey, Sly, what you just quoted is my personal intro to this website....just about everyone here has an intro. The idea is to tell a little something about yourself. In addition to what you wrote, I seem to recall also mentioning I'm interested in movies, History, the Middle Ages, and decent bourbon. I guess you didn't feel like including this, but that's OK.
This was a personal intro to an interactive website....it's not like this info was being issued as a press release, or to any newspaper or media outlet, in order to let the world at large know about my hiking past. In short, the world at large knows nothing about my hiking history....and why should they? It's not a subject that they'd particularly care about, nor have I ever sent out any release or announcement to the press or public bragging about my latest accomplishment or "endurance" activity, unlike every "Speed record endurance hiker" out there.
If you can't see the difference, that's your problem, not mine.
I also can't help but notice that you also have a descriptive profile here at Whiteblaze, Sly, where you list all of the major trails you've done....in addition to the fact that you're "Working on the Triple Crown", meaning you're not only interested in telling folks all about what you've done, but you wanna make sure they know what you're gonna do in the future.
In short, if I'm guilty of self-promotion here, Sly, so are you. The only difference is unlike you, I don't go into what I'm working on or what I'm planning, maybe because I suspect nobody's really that interested.
Have a nice day.
And Tim---
I didn't enter this conversation to debate the merits or non-merits of speed hiking and record-seeking, other to say that many folks are singularly unimpressed by this sort of activity, including major hiking organizations. You obviously feel this is improtant stuff that's worth bragging about; you're entitled to your opinion.
I was merely making the point that I didn't think Earl Shaffer's name belonged on a list of these publicity seeking stunt hikers, because this wasn't his style. He's the LAST person who's name belongs on a list like this.
Tim Seaver
12-04-2005, 18:22
You obviously feel this is improtant stuff that's worth bragging about; you're entitled to your opinion.
Poppycock.
You are the one characterizing speed hikers and trail runners as braggarts, which is a big load of BS, as I have shown by example.
Do I love these kind of pursuits? - hell yes, but not for the shallow reasons you suggest.
Bottom line - the people taking part in these adventures don't really care what you think, and all of your silly bellyaching and ranting isn't going to change that.
I am sure Bob Marshall would be amused at your claims. I know I am.:sun
saimyoji
12-04-2005, 18:30
This is the same debate about "What makes a thru-hiker?" in a different wrapper. If you say HYOH, why do turn around and question someone for doing the same? If someone is 'breaking records' that you don't really care about, then why even comment? I don't get it.
I admire all you guys who have the time and wherewithall to get out there and hike as much as you do. I live vicariously through many of you and dream about the time when I'll be able to do so as well. If I read an article about a guy who hikes 120 miles in 30 hours I say to myself, "Good for him." But thats not what I'm gonna do. I'd like the designation as the world's slowest hiker. Maybe if I hike slowly enough, my hike will never end. It seems to me that the people who challenge the validity of the accomplishments of others have other issues (I'm the same way about some things, not about hiking though...yet(?))
We all need to take a deep breath and put things in perspective. Think of all the time and energy wasted arguing about this crap. :datz
When you are typing your post attacking me, keep in mind, I WON'T LET IT GET TO ME (unless we're talking about beer). A nice snowy evening to all. :sun
Jack Tarlin
12-04-2005, 18:34
Final comment to the peevish Mr. Seaver:
If these folks aren't interested in promoting and advertising these "exploits," and letting as many folks as possible know all about them, then how, I wonder, does anyone ever find about them? Could it possibly have anything to do with press releases, calls to news outlets, etc.? Could this quest for publicity have anything to do with the press that results?
Gee, that's a tough one, eh?
And Tim, you're right, I'm sure these folks could care less about I think. And that's fine with me.
Just so you know, tho, this works two ways....most folks in the hiking world don't much care about their valorous deeds of "endurance," either. Many folkls think this sort of testoreone-laden, chest-thumping braggadoccio is usually left on a grade-school schoolyard.
But to each their own.
And lastly, I asked you awhile ago how well you personally knew Earl Shaffer and therefore, how qualified you were to discuss what he might have said or thought in regards to this subject.
You never answered.
But then again, in your silence, maybe you did.
'Bye now.
In short, if I'm guilty of self-promotion here, Sly, so are you.
I'm not the one criticizing others for doing it, you are! You're jumping on Cave Dog like he's some type of piranha. I've read your name and accomplishments in more publications and online resources than him. So who's gathering more attention?
By the way, I already have the Triple Crown (AT, PCT, CDT). I'm working on the Triple Gem, (LT, JMT, CT). ;)
Jack,
To the best of your knowledge, did Earl's record of being the first thru hiker matter to him? Or alleged record if we are to believe some at the ATC.
To put it another way, was Mr Shaffer bothered at all by the claims of those who would suggest he wasn't the first person to thru hike the AT?
Rick
"Long distance trail endurance record holders?"
What in hell does this designation mean, and who gives it?
I guess it falls into the same realm as "thru-hiker".
Jack Tarlin
12-04-2005, 18:47
Geez, Sly, your reading comprehension could really use some work....nowhere in my original post was I jumping on anyone:
As I did was make the observations that Earl Shaffer didn't belong on a list of "trail endurance record holders" because he would have thought little of such an exercise.
I further made the comment that several prominent hiking organizations look with disdain on this sort of activity; they seem to think that stunt hikes and publicity-seeking hikes have the potential to degrade the Trail.
A lot of folks, including me, tend to agree with this.
And as to my getting the occasional notice in a news story or magazine, unlike some folks, I've NEVER sent out any kind of release or announcement to let people know about any recent "accomplishment."
You know why? I'm modest enough to acknowledge that the world at large could care less....how quickly one can hike a particular trail is about as significant a statistic as how often they've done it......meaning, not very.
Geez, Sly, your reading comprehension could really use some work....
No doubt.
Earl's hike was considered a "stunt hike" at the time and look down to with distain. Are we all quilty?
Jack Tarlin
12-04-2005, 19:06
Rick--
Good question. To the best of my knowledge (based on personal experience, personal conversations with the late Mr. Shaffer, and discussions with folks who knew him a whole lot better than I did), I'd have to say that he was pleased with his position in the hiking world....but never smug or self-righteous about it.
In fact, for a long-time, decades in fact, he was essentially unknown outside the hiking world. Between 1948 and 1998, he lived a very private, very quiet life. He gave very few interviews or comments to the press during this period, and in fact, was generally quoted only when folks sough HIM out and not the other way around. When he hiked the Trail again in 1965, thus becoming the first person to thru-hike the A.T. in both directions, he got very little puublicity for this. (And to prove this, I bet a lot of folks who just read the above didn't even KNOW that Earl was the first person to accomplish this.....and the reason they don't know is that he never made a big deal out of it).
It wsn't until his extraordinary 1998 hike that he started to get a lot of press, and even then, he didn't get much until well into his hike of 1998. It wasn't like he sent out a thousand press releasesw and expected constant notoriety the whole way....in fact, towards the end of the trip, it was clear that he was tired of the hoopla. It got to the point that people were stealing his entries out of Trail registries, and Earl, afraid that this would also result in the disappearance of other people's entries and comments, stopped signing registers as a result. This was the kind of guy he was.....modest, unassuming, gracious, and considerate.
Towards the very end of his life, I think that he enjoyed some of the recognition, but I think that was mainly because he enjoyed the affection of people, and not the idol-worship, which often embarassed him.
Towards the end of his life, he was asked how wanted to be remembered and what he was most proud of. His answer was that he was most proud of his military service in the Second World War. He never mentioned his prominence or significance as a hiker; it was evident, at least to me, that his remarkable accomplishments as a hiker were NOT the most significant things in his life, and that while knew he would always be remembered and pointed out for his fame as a backpacker, this was not recognition that he consciously sought.
As to how he felt about those who questioned his status as the first thru-hiker, I never discussed this with him. But I suspect that his disdain over the other claimants was not so much because he felt his "fame" was threatened. I think his disdain was because the other "claim" was weak, virtually unsuported with documentation, and frivolous. Earl was a pretty no-nonsense kind of guy, and had a low bull**** threshold. If he was troubled by these other claimants. it wasn't because he felt threatened by them. He simply thought they were ridiculous, and I think he was right.
If he was troubled by these other claimants. it wasn't because he felt threatened by them. He simply thought they were ridiculous, and I think he was right.
Why, were you there? Or do you have some knowledge that the rest of us are not aware of? Or does this simply challenge history the way you like to see it? What's your beef?
I hiked in 2000, and I can't remember the names of lots of folks I hiked with. Is it hard to imagine that a guy in his 70s wouldn't remember the names of his hiking partners - 55 years later? Age does funny things with a memory. I look at my grade school photos today and I can't remember the names of lots of my fellow students - and I spent alot more than 5 months with those folks. And I'm only 44!
And futhermore, not everyone would feel compelled to report a hike, or crow about their accomplishments from the highest peak or from behind a keyboard. After all, its just a walk in the woods, right?
Mind you, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm just asking some pointed questions and making some valid points, and trying to find out what the beef is.
Tim Seaver
12-04-2005, 19:46
Final comment to the peevish Mr. Seaver:
If these folks aren't interested in promoting and advertising these "exploits," and letting as many folks as possible know all about them, then how, I wonder, does anyone ever find about them?..
Gee, that's a tough one, eh?
Actually, that one is pretty easy to answer.
When I was training to break Cave Dog's record in the Whites in the Spring of 2003, some people I ran into at the summit of Mount Adams asked me what I was doing - I told them that I was training to bring this record back to where I felt it belonged - to New England. That was MY motivation for doing this - local pride. (Sorry to burst your envious little bubble.)
One of the gents said that he knew a journalist in North Conway that would be very interested in the story, and he asked me for my contact info. After the event, he contacted me for an interview, which then was picked up by a few other very minor media sources. Whoop-de-doo.
Hope that answers your "tough" question.
And, no, I didn't know Earl Shaffer - just as you didn't know Bob Marshall, and don't know Richard Denker, Cave Dog, or myself. You paint with a broad brush, to say the least.
( PS - You will all have to excuse "Jack's" pissy tone - he had his ass handed to him on a plate last year by the hiking community on the AMC bulletin board over this same topic, and I suspect his big ol' fanny is still smarting a bit) :D
I don't see what Jack's beef is either. It may have taken some time and miles but I prefer not to openly criticize someone elses journey.
Now that I think of it, I'd like to see where (a link?) the ATC or GMC do.
Jack Tarlin
12-04-2005, 19:57
I don't have a dog in this fight either, Mowgli.
Tho I must say, Earl had an extraordinary memory; on more than one occasion, I attended one of the slide shows of his 1948 trip, and he spoke with extraordinary clarity about places and locations he hadn't seen in fifty years.
As to where I get my thoughts on what Earl might have thought of the other claimants, this is based on what I have credibly heard from others; as I clearly said, I never discussed this matter with him.
Mowgli, a lot of folks thought the "Boy Scout" claimants, whose trip allegedly preceeded Earl's, had a real credibility problem, primarily based on a near-total lack of physical documentation, i.e. letters, journals, postcards, diraries, anything. These doubts weren't based on criticism of anyone's memory or recollections; it was based on people being unable to document what they were claiming. Also, I find it truly remarkable that there was no mention of this "feat" in any local or National Scouting publication; one would think that something this notable would've merited a great deal of press at the time, but evidently this was not the case. Even if the participants might not have chosen to "crow" about it, I find it somewhat odd that their local Council felt the same way.
In short, a lot of folks were troubled by this matter, Mowgli,and a lot of folks were troubled by this rush to dis-credit Earl's hike.
If you know more about this matter, please feel free to tell us.
Ed is wearing off on you Jeffery. I don't think I'd remember everybodys name I've hiked a few days with either. A trip like they took though? I remember the guys in my troop from my 1st hike in Philmont, about 30 years ago and that was a 6 day trip. But nevermind the names, the guy couldn't even remember the hike until Earl started getting all the publicity. I'm not saying its not possible, just highly unlikely- kinda like winning the lotto.;)
Tim,
With all do respect, you do have a press release up on the Web.
Rick B
...Even today, the ATC introduces him as the first person to REPORT having thru hiked the Trail on their website. Those that knew Mr. Shaffer personally might have better knowledge as to how the ATC's acceptance of the Boys Scouts' claims to have done it earlier may or may not have affected Earl Shaffer.
Personally, I wish that the ATC respected Earl's record better. No matter whether that was important to Earl or not.
Actually, ATC never "accepted the boy scout claims." Rather they applied to those claims the same criteria they apply to recent claims. "If you claim to have done it, we will list your claim in our magazine."
I agree that was stupid of ATC, since they had applied an earlier and stricter standard when Earl made the claim.
I partially excuse ATC because the staff has always been a close knit group, struggling with low pay and an overwhelming task. When the magazine editor made a dumb decision, the instinct was to support him.
The ATC leadership has never been the "best and brightest," but they have always been the most dedicated -- and the only real participants -- in a terribly important mission.
In my talks with Earl during the final months, he expressed contempt of Grandma Gatewood as "a bum," but never had anything bad to say about ATC, though he dropped hints that he was a bit offended.
Weary
In short, a lot of folks were troubled by this matter, Mowgli,and a lot of folks were troubled by this rush to dis-credit Earl's hike.
If you know more about this matter, please feel free to tell us.
Well, the ATC wasn't troubled - that is until letters to the editors started pouring in. I don't think the ATC ever sought to discredit Earl's hike. Earl might have felt differently - pehaps understandably so.
And no, I don't have any more info. Its really no big deal to me - one way or another. You see, I tend to take people at face value. If some 70 year old guy from the Bronx told me he hiked the rail, and could credibly talk about the but I have no reason not to believe him.
And Nean, no Ed isn't really wearing off on me. Get him talking about this, and he does get revved up.
Jack Tarlin
12-04-2005, 20:18
Tim--
Where on earth did you get the absurd idea that I'm envious of your activities?
You evidently don't know me very well......when I'm done with a trip or a traverse, I generally find myself wishing the trip lasted LONGER than it did: Making a big deal about how fast I got OUT of the mountains or how fast I finished a trip isn't exactly my style. I can't for the life of me figure out why anybody would think I'd be envious of someone who was so anxious to get OUT of the backcountry in a hurry, rather than remain there.
You and your pals are in a fury to get out of the high country as quickly as possible and tell someone, preferably a media source, what you just did.
I'm more interested in staying out there as long as I can.
S stop flattering yourself; I'm probably the LAST person who'd be envious of your publicity seeking, or your method of travel.
Ed is wearing off on you Jeffery. I don't think I'd remember everybodys name I've hiked a few days with either. A trip like they took though? I remember the guys in my troop from my 1st hike in Philmont, about 30 years ago and that was a 6 day trip. But nevermind the names, the guy couldn't even remember the hike until Earl started getting all the publicity. I'm not saying its not possible, just highly unlikely- kinda like winning the lotto.;)
Nor, how they managed to hike all 283 miles of Maine in about a week, fording the Kennebec, fighting black flies... That was some Scout troop -- averaging 40 miles a day, day after day, on a poorly marked trail, and in places not even a laid out trail, right from the start, with 1930's packs and gear.
Tim Seaver
12-04-2005, 20:26
Tim,
With all do respect, you do have a press release up on the Web.
Rick B
Yes, I do - after the initial interest from the journalist who I mentioned upthread, we made one for the local paper and my site, and that is about it. Not what I would call a massive PR campaign.
There are those who think that things like this should be done in secret, and then there are those who must trumpet what they have done loudly and often - I like to think there is something in between those two extremes.
Tim Seaver
12-04-2005, 20:34
You and your pals are in a fury to get out of the high country as quickly as possible
This shows your fundamental misunderstanding of what motivates people to move quickly over terrain.
You would do as well to criticize a horse running through a field for "being in a hurry".
This is like wrestling with a pig, as they say...:-?
Hey Weary, Are we still talkin bout Eric Ryback?:D
Nothing wrong with sharing records.
If Earl didn't share his record with the ATC and write his book, surely many other hikers wouldn't have been challenged to push their own limits.
That you and Cave Dog and others push limits on two dimensions is fine by me. If you didn't publicize the results, how could you ever challenge one another-- not to mention the guys coming up.
Jack Tarlin
12-04-2005, 20:57
Tim--
You really just don't get it, do you....
I have no problems whatsoever with people who wish to travel quickly over terrain. That's their choice.
I just find it amusing that so many of the folks who engage in this hobby suffer from such a relentless need to tell people about their accomplishments, at every conceivable opportunity ..........for example, more than half your posts here to WB have involved the phenomena of speed-hiking or "record" seeking attempts. You don't seem to want to talk about much else.
But I'll take your comments at face value, and that your interest in speed records has nothing to do with publicity or the need to let folks know about these records.
Doubtless, the page of your personal website devoted to your speed "records" was posted there by someone else. God forbid you be unjustly accused of seeking undue publicity, since I know this isn't what your travels are all about.
Thanks, I understand better now.
One thing lost in this discussion about Cave Dog is Cave Dog.
One of the neat things about his "rules" for the 50 state challenge are that they are his rules. He has a definite framework, but a sense of fun comes through loud and clear.
For example, his rules say that if a certain distance got mis-measured in good faith-- SO WHAT.
I like that.
Its sort of like counting a a thru hike as complete, even if one got lost a bit and missed a few blazes.
Reading his rules make me think that Cave Dog really gets it.
http://www.thecavedog.com/50KM50States-Web_Pages/50KM50States/50KM50States-index-frame.html
You evidently don't know me very well......when I'm done with a trip or a traverse, I generally find myself wishing the trip lasted LONGER than it did: Making a big deal about how fast I got OUT of the mountains or how fast I finished a trip isn't exactly my style.
So, what do you have to say about Flyin' Brian or Squeaky, two backpackers (resupply along the way, no slackpacking for them) that have hiked and are about to hike the Triple Crown in 10.5 and 8.5 months respectively? Both are taking longer than you normally do and they carry their **** all the way!
Jack Tarlin
12-04-2005, 21:33
What do I have to say about 'em?
Not much, other than I've met both of them, and they both seemed like fine folks.
I talked with Squeaky very briefly when he passed thru Hanover a few weeks ago, and would've enjoyed talking with him some more, but there wasn't time.
I wish him well with the rest of his trip.
What do I have to say about 'em?
Not much, other than I've met both of them, and they both seemed like fine folks.
Oh ok, I thought from your previous posts you'd consider it a "stunt" hike. You know, setting records and all that. Regardless, I''m sure they're having an experience of a lifetime. What do you think? ;)
Whistler
12-04-2005, 23:26
I can see how a press release could be interpreted as megalomania, but I don't think it's the most accurate or only way to characterize it. From a practical standpoint, publicizing a new record or challenge is just a way of being involved in that community--it helps to document the progress of that particular human endeavor. Sort of like domino toppling, or hot air balloon altitude challenges [new records for both this November], building the ultimate alcohol stove, or any other little hobby. It's a way to participate in your niche group, offer yourself to support and advise others, and offer a quantifiable new standard for anyone who chooses a similar challenge for themselves. The goal is to inform rather than impress.
Also, there is no need for an Official Trail Record Documentation and Verification Authority. That's just silly. It's just a gentleman's, on-your-honor type pursuit. Those involved would admit they won't make the history books or get to be in a Nike commercial or have a cameo in a sitcom, and it doesn't really matter. It's about sharing a common interest in challenging yourself.
FWIW, the official ATC stance is that, "Special hikes, group hikes, or other group activities that could degrade the Appalachian Trail's natural or cultural resources or social values should be avoided. Examples of such activities include publicized spectator events, commercial or competitive activites, or programs involving large groups."
-Mark
Lone Wolf
12-04-2005, 23:31
A "thru-hike" is a stunt. The AT wasn't conceived for this purpose. Speed hikers rock!
Youngblood
12-05-2005, 11:33
Nothing wrong with sharing records.
If Earl didn't share his record with the ATC and write his book, surely many other hikers wouldn't have been challenged to push their own limits.
That you and Cave Dog and others push limits on two dimensions is fine by me. If you didn't publicize the results, how could you ever challenge one another-- not to mention the guys coming up.
Rick,
This reminds me of a statement I read this weekend on another subject that I feel inclined to paraphrase for this debate, here goes: "A wise guy once said you should never let facts get in the way of a good opinion. I’m not sure who that was but a wise guy should never be confused with a wise man." Rick, you sound like a wise man to me. I never met Earl but I did read one of his books and he sounded like a wise man to me as well. But don't take this wise man characterisation too far, because I certainly don't feel that all particapants in this debate are being wise men, there certainly does seem to be some serious injection of opinions as facts.
A "thru-hike" is a stunt. The AT wasn't conceived for this purpose. Speed hikers rock!
I suspect most of us occasionally succumb to the temptation to be first, or fastest, or whatever.
I never was much of an athlete, but many years ago I joined a group that wanted to be the first to do a traverse of Katahdin in winter. The plan was to climb the mountain via the AT (Hunt TRail) and exit via the Saddle Trail to Chimney Pond.
We were on the tableland by 8 a.m., but engulfed in a white out. We stood around for two hours before heading back down the AT. We planned a second attempt the following weekend. But that week a technical hiker had died on a rock wall making park rangers more careful about who they let climb in the winter.
For the first time the park rangers checked our gear and discovered that none of us had papers from physicians certifying we were fit for winter ascents, foiling my first and only attempt at athletic prowess.
Well actually, many of the same group had earlier done a first winter traverse of Baxter Park, hiking on snowshoes and skiis from the Matagammon Gate on the north to South Branch Ponds, and Russell Pond, and exiting 40 miles later from the Togue Pond Gate.
It was a first, I think, but unfortunately I can't remember the date -- or even the year.
I suspect I was invited on these expeditions because when I had nothing better to write about, I'd fill in with stories about these weekend adventures.
Weary
If you don't tell somebody that you beat a record, how is anybody going to know what record they need to beat?
HYOH and if you don't like speed hiking, don't do it!
Rick,
This reminds me of a statement I read this weekend on another subject that I feel inclined to paraphrase for this debate, here goes: "A wise guy once said you should never let facts get in the way of a good opinion. I’m not sure who that was but a wise guy should never be confused with a wise man." Rick, you sound like a wise man to me. I never met Earl but I did read one of his books and he sounded like a wise man to me as well. But don't take this wise man characterisation too far, because I certainly don't feel that all particapants in this debate are being wise men, there certainly does seem to be some serious injection of opinions as facts.
One of the editors of an alternative weekly that published during my time in the newspaper business used to say that one "should never let the facts interfere with a good story."
He practiced what he preached. He once sold a story in The Atlantic or Harpers that was subject to devasting criticsm for the many errors in a letters column a couple of months later. I noticed it didn't hurt his standing in the publishing business. His pieces continued to be published in magazines and his books published until his death a few years ago.
Weary
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!"
Homer
Liberals never let facts get in the way of a good story.
Liberals never let facts get in the way of a good story.
Not disagreeing with you, but the same thing can be said for conservatives and moderates. Ain't no one out there who doesn't bend the facts to fit their "truth".
DaSchwartz
12-05-2005, 16:43
Speed hiking is cool.
Take 100 speed hikers vs 100 normal hikers. The speed hikers will do far, far less damage to the trail and the normal hikers. Just think how the trail would be if they all acted like Baltimore Jack, you would have millions of cigarette butts all over the place and 1000's of emply glass liquor jars since Jack does not take out his empty alcohol bottles.
justusryans
12-05-2005, 20:21
we don't believe you, now go away.
I think Mags posted the link first: www.flamewarriors.com
you will see all people who post to forums lampooned here, funny stuff:sun
Jack Tarlin
12-06-2005, 17:46
Geez, is it Groundhog Day already? Seems my biggest fan has crawled out early from under his rock:
Mr. Schwartz, I travel with a plastic refillable flask, never glass, and I smoke filterless cigarettes....the butts are either field-stripped and totally destroyed, or they are packed out with my other trash..
Thanks for proving yet again how little you know of me or how I hike.
Merry Christmas.
Mr. Schwartz, I travel with a plastic refillable flask, never glass, and I smoke filterless cigarettes....the butts are either field-stripped and totally destroyed, or they are packed out with my other trash..
I'll vouch for you Jack! ;)
DaSchwatrz needs to crawl back under his rock.
since Jack does not take out his empty alcohol bottles.
Don't listen to DaSchwartz, you can't trust him - I saw him blow a pig once. No really, I saw him do it, and he was really into it, making all sorts of noises the entire time. He even "minded the stepchildren", which must have been nice for the pig. Then there was the time that he was donkey punched by a donkey, but that's another story... Vile, vile man.
Tha Wookie
12-07-2005, 13:39
Geez, is it Groundhog Day already? Seems my biggest fan has crawled out early from under his rock:
Mr. Schwartz, I travel with a plastic refillable flask, never glass, and I smoke filterless cigarettes....the butts are either field-stripped and totally destroyed, or they are packed out with my other trash..
Thanks for proving yet again how little you know of me or how I hike.
Merry Christmas.
I can vouch for Jack too. I've seen the refill bottle (no glass) and no butts on the ground. He might be a mess inside, but the outside is spic-n-span.
Say, how is that emergency kit doing?
After also noticing Jack's colorful water bottle, I would say that DaShwartz must hike with Leki's.
If not, he deserves them!;)
Tim Seaver
12-07-2005, 16:45
Very nice photos and gallery, Wookie!