View Full Version : Lyme Disease and Prevention
ChinMusic
06-08-2009, 11:26
I know this subject has been brought up over and over but IMO it can't be over-stated.
One of our regulars, 10-K, just came down with Lyme. He was fortunate that his early symptoms were severe enough that he sought treatment immediately and is currently recovering under good care.
Not everyone is so lucky as the early symptoms can be easily be blown off as "just a bug".
Please consider a product such as: https://sawyerfamilyprotection.com/more.asp?pid=62 (https://sawyerfamilyprotection.com/more.asp?pid=62)
for treating (soaking) your clothing prior to a prolonged hike. I think the spray stuff is fine too but trust the soaking method better. The treatment is said to last up to 6 weeks with regular washings. For a thru I personally wouldn't go over a month due to the increased rigors of a thru. I have nothing to back up my idea of one month.
You need to soak (for 4 hours) the clothes and allow for complete drying before wearing them. You do not want to wear the clothing if still wet.
The permethrin does not affect the feel or smell of the clothing. In fact, I cannot tell the difference between untreated clothing and treated clothing once it is dry. I have to be careful not to confuse my treated clothing with untreated clothing once in the washing machine, so I don't mistakenly wear untreated stuff into the woods.
On my trip this weekend, EVERY other hiker had ticks on them. I had none.
Is it 100%? I doubt anything is but I have yet to find a tick in the two years I have been using permethrin.
MintakaCat
06-08-2009, 11:45
About a month ago I took every bit of my hiking clothes out on the porch and hung them to be sprayed with permethrin. And I sprayed them real good. I also sprayed my hats, boots, rain gear, and pack.
Good advice ChinMusic.
About a month ago I took every bit of my hiking clothes out on the porch and hung them to be sprayed with permethrin. And I sprayed them real good. I also sprayed my hats, boots, rain gear, and pack.
Good advice ChinMusic.
Same here; but after my hiking season april to oct, I going to go to my doc and get tested. Better safe than sorry
Same here; but after my hiking season april to oct, I going to go to my doc and get tested. Better safe than sorry
Coincidentally, the hospital just called an hour ago to tell me that I did test positive for lyme disease.
I started treatment last Tuesday so it took 7 days to even get an official diagnosis. I really feel like my primary care physician and the ER doc I saw should get a gold star for getting so far in front of this.
From what I've read, this is something that you want to start treating right away. The CDC even recommends that treatment not wait until lyme can be confirmed by lab results and that antibiotics should be prescribed if lyme is even suspected.
For the rest of my life, any time I start feeling like I have the flu I'm going to consider lyme disease as a possible cause. The symptoms (in my case) were identical to getting a flu bug except I had a massive, massive headache that I don't usually get with the flu. So if you're feeling ill, it's something to definitely consider.
Snowleopard
06-08-2009, 13:05
Good advice ChinMusic. It might be a good idea to spray shoes and socks with the Permethrin also. The standard recommendation where there is Lyme is to tuck your pants into your socks. If you can't stand doing that, I'd use DEET around your ankles. For people that can't stand wearing long pants, use DEET on your legs (and other exposed flesh). I wonder if really light gaitors treated with permethrin would be helpful for people in shorts?
"The permethrin does not affect the feel or smell of the clothing." I can faintly smell the permethrin, but it's not nearly as bad as the insect repellents.
The annoying thing about all this is that long pants and shirts are hot. The times when it's fine to wear shorts is when it's so cold that the ticks are inactive, so we get our seasons reversed -- shorts and tee shirts at 20 degrees :)
10-K, I hope you're feeling better.
Maybe I should see my doc and take antibiotics during the hiking season prophylactically
MintakaCat
06-08-2009, 13:23
Maybe I should see my doc and take antibiotics during the hiking season prophylactically
Because of the increasing problem of antibiotic resistance, most doctors will not do that.
truckindust
06-08-2009, 13:59
I read that thread with much concern also, as my son and two others leave next week for a SOBO. He was concerned over the toxicity of permethrin and the skin...but since last night, I have read a good bit about it and as a skeptical, never trust anything person...I've determined with satisfaction that it is safe when DRY, to humans, and that it's better to go with it for 5 months than WITHOUT it!. I just ordered several bottles!!! It isn't worth it! Toomuch invested in this trip not to mention his long term health, NOT to use every tool available to make it succesful.
I just got back from the doctor a few hours ago. After finding and pulling out a tick I have been developing a weird bright red rash directly where I removed the tick. It recently started getting a strange ring around it that looked like a bruise. Sure enough I just started treatment for Lyme Disease, a few weeks of 100mg Doxycycline twice a day. I use Ben's 100 and Sawyers Permethrin as well. My tick was the smallest I have ever seen. It was digging in on my left side near my waist and not in easy view. I would suggest that everyone check themselves very well as the other sprays and precautions aren't foolproof and do require due diligence.
take-a-knee
06-08-2009, 17:18
Maybe I should see my doc and take antibiotics during the hiking season prophylactically
That's like bathing in June so you won't stink in August. You can take ONE SINGLE DOSE of 200mg of Doxycycline immeadiately after you remove an attatched tick and that will prevent Lyme. If you doc thinks you are too stupid to understand how all this works you most likely won't get a prescription. You'll also likely have to search and find the study and take it to your doc, 'cause he most likely never read it.
Get a second opinion if you think you have it and the doc says no. My buddy who got it last year was told that he didn't have it and the doc wouldn't do the tests. Josh(my friend) knew better and went for the 2nd. He had it and wouldn't have caught it early if he didn't do that.
Snowleopard
06-08-2009, 19:11
DCMatt, Yes, the deer ticks are small and harder to see. Do you have any ideas on how it might have made it through your chemical armor? I've gotten an inch wide welt across my back from black flies when my shirt rode up out of my pants. I hope you don't get very sick.
Skidsteer
06-08-2009, 19:14
That's like bathing in June so you won't stink in August. You can take ONE SINGLE DOSE of 200mg of Doxycycline immeadiately after you remove an attatched tick and that will prevent Lyme. If you doc thinks you are too stupid to understand how all this works you most likely won't get a prescription. You'll also likely have to search and find the study and take it to your doc, 'cause he most likely never read it.
Interesting. Do you have a link to the study handy?
I just finished a ten day course of Doxycycline for Lyme and would much rather take the single dose and test later. My Doc is open minded and willing to learn so he'd probably like to read it.
Because of the increasing problem of antibiotic resistance, most doctors will not do that.
Yes but when I went to Sri Lanka tsunami relief and then Katrina he usually gives me anything I ask for. Been a RN going on 22 years so I know all those risk.
We just bought some of the Permethrin soaking stuff. The instructions say not to soak undergarments.
What about socks?
Has anyone on here gotten a rash or other signs of irritation from using Permethrin-soaked clothes?
take-a-knee
06-08-2009, 21:07
We just bought some of the Permethrin soaking stuff. The instructions say not to soak undergarments.
What about socks?
Has anyone on here gotten a rash or other signs of irritation from using Permethrin-soaked clothes?
The US Army was impregnating BDU's years ago and there were reports of rashes, nothing serious as I recall.
take-a-knee
06-08-2009, 21:09
Interesting. Do you have a link to the study handy?
I just finished a ten day course of Doxycycline for Lyme and would much rather take the single dose and test later. My Doc is open minded and willing to learn so he'd probably like to read it.
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/345/2/79
ChinMusic
06-08-2009, 21:25
We just bought some of the Permethrin soaking stuff. The instructions say not to soak undergarments.
What about socks?
Has anyone on here gotten a rash or other signs of irritation from using Permethrin-soaked clothes?
I made the personal decision to disregard that part of the instructions. What about those that go commando? I soak all my clothes including my Buff (bandanna thing).
No issues here. YMMV
Does anyone know this?
Can Lyme disease look like a bruise. My wife has a large bruise on her leg and doesn't remember bumping into anything that might have caused a bruise.
Panzer
That's like bathing in June so you won't stink in August. You can take ONE SINGLE DOSE of 200mg of Doxycycline immeadiately after you remove an attatched tick and that will prevent Lyme. If you doc thinks you are too stupid to understand how all this works you most likely won't get a prescription. You'll also likely have to search and find the study and take it to your doc, 'cause he most likely never read it.
Yeah you are right! Wish they never gave up working on the vaccine, no $$$ in it
take-a-knee
06-09-2009, 09:43
Yeah you are right! Wish they never gave up working on the vaccine, no $$$ in it
They had a functional vaccine but they pulled it from the market and I suspect it was due to adverse reactions. There is an outdoor writer from GA who recieved the vaccine and immeadiately started having all sorts of immune system problems.
According the the CDC:
The vaccine for Lyme disease is no longer available. It was discontinued by the manufacturer in 2002, citing low demand. People who were vaccinated are no longer protected against Lyme disease, as protection was not long lasting. There are vaccines available for dogs but no vaccine available for cats.
(http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/lyme/default.htm#vacc)
According to lymeinfo.net:
On February 26, 2002, GlaxoSmithKline, the maker of the Lyme vaccine "LYMErix", pulled the vaccine off the market, blaming poor sales. However, many vaccine victims, Lyme patients and advocacy groups believe the reasons for its withdrawal are much more complicated.
(http://www.lymeinfo.net/vaccine.html)
Personally, I think low demand alone doesn't ring true.
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Personally, I think low demand alone doesn't ring true.
Same. I watched it from a distance as we have a serious cluster here in Acadia NP. Low demand may in part be due to some of the less than stellar reports about the vaccine.
It's hard to say drugs companies work for the mega sell, vaccine or low on the totem pole, drugs to relax your mind or make you organ hard, seem to be their # 1 products. There are reaction to any vaccine out there it could be flu, malaria, or whatever, I would take it if it was still around
johnnybgood
06-09-2009, 17:01
It's hard to say drugs companies work for the mega sell, vaccine or low on the totem pole
, drugs to relax your mind or make you organ hard:D
, seem to be their # 1 products.[
The drug companies whether it be Merck or Pfizer need to show a continual profit in producing a drug to their company shareholders and that is an easy sell ,( ie; Viagra ).
Personally I would use it every time during tick season.
mooseboy
06-09-2009, 17:54
Seeing as I'm preparing for several significant section hikes, I've been paying careful attention to the high tick activity this year... I just bought some permethrin to treat my clothes and was planning on this:
Permethrin-Spraying: Hiking shorts, shirts, low gaiters, socks
DEET (daily) on: legs, cap, hands
I had the idea of Permethrin-spraying my pack waistbelt (and possibly shoulder straps). Would this help?
I'm also considering bringing my lightweight polypro long underwear and wearing them with my shorts... I know it looks goofy, but I'd like the tick protection and don't want the extra weight of a pair of long pants. I've seen other hikers do it... if I were to go this method, I'd probably treat the longjohns with permethrin too.
Too much Lyme going around for me to ignore the dangers this year (and me without Health Insurance to boot)...
ChinMusic
06-09-2009, 18:06
I had the idea of Permethrin-spraying my pack waistbelt (and possibly shoulder straps). Would this help?
Couldn't hurt.
I have even set up my tent in the backyard and sprayed the mesh opening. I felt it led to less skeeters getting into the tent. Not sure if it did or not.
I've taken the plunge, literally. Two pairs of sock, a pair of pants, and a shirt are all soaking in Permethrin as I write. I'll take them out and hang dry them tomorrow. They should be ready to wear this weekend.
take-a-knee
06-09-2009, 22:20
I've taken the plunge, literally. Two pairs of sock, a pair of pants, and a shirt are all soaking in Permethrin as I write. I'll take them out and hang dry them tomorrow. They should be ready to wear this weekend.
Wash them first.
ChinMusic
06-09-2009, 23:14
Wash them first.
Why do you say this?
I have not washed mine before wearing.
I wear Permethrine treated pants made of mosquito netting over my shorts in summer lately. Looks goofy, but it's cooler than long pants. Several hikers thought it was a good idea when they saw me last year in Mass. during the Parade of Fools. I also have a bug jacket which was made by Outdoor Research but which has since been discontinued. It has nylon fabric shoulders. The mesh tends to get ground into your skin under pack straps. I've used all mesh tops and haven't liked them too much. Actually, the top looks goofier than the pants.
I may have Lyme disease now (am getting treated for it without the blood test due to extreme pain in my knees). If I do have it, it's likely I got it at Trail Days when I was a little too relaxed about things like tucking my pants into my socks. I also wore several non-treated hats, one of which had lain on the ground for some time. I had two lumps on the back of my head near the hair line which I figured were mosquito bites. They probably were embedded ticks.
Homer&Marje
06-10-2009, 05:37
Maybe I should see my doc and take antibiotics during the hiking season prophylactically
I think the word you were looking for was proactively.
I don't think the antibiotics will make a good birth control option:D:D
take-a-knee
06-10-2009, 06:48
Why do you say this?
I have not washed mine before wearing.
That permethrin is carried in some sort of solvent, I'd be more worried about the solvent being absorbed than the permethrin. The US Army Field Manual on Preventive Medicine that detailed the process of preparing the solution and saturating BDU's said to launder before wearing and that is what I've always done. BDU's treated with spray were supposed to have an effective residual for five washings. The saturation method is effective for much longer. I suspect the residual may not be as long lasting on nylon though.
take-a-knee
06-10-2009, 06:51
I think the word you were looking for was proactively.
I don't think the antibiotics will make a good birth control option:D:D
No, he's correct.
Homer&Marje
06-10-2009, 06:58
I think the word you were looking for was proactively.
I don't think the antibiotics will make a good birth control option:D:D
No, he's correct.
Definitions of prophylactic on the Web:
contraceptive: capable of preventing conception or impregnation; "contraceptive devices and medications"
preventive: remedy that prevents or slows the course of an illness or disease; "the doctor recommended several preventatives"
cautionary: warding off; "the swastika...a very ancient prophylactic symbol occurring among all peoples"- Victor Schultze
condom: contraceptive device consisting of a sheath of thin rubber or latex that is worn over the penis during intercourse
Never had heard the second definition listed here... my mistake...
Anyway I don't want Lyme! So don't have sex with them or let the little buggers bite you and get check out at the end of your hiking season or at least every 6 months
Thanks for the post. I am going to consider this for our hike this summer with my daughter. Highly toxic to fish and cats, and ticks, but it seems reasonably safe to humans. We don't need to carry much clothing in summer, so I think it would work very well to treat some and set it aside for our big hike and short hikes. I think we could treat it with just a bucket soak and hang to dry, and probably hand wash the same way until the end of the season. One treatment should get us through to fall clothing. I hike in shorts but usually cool and shady enough for my daughter to hike in light skin layer top and bottoms, and shorts or whatever. I think this will work well. We are starting to get a few cases of Lyme disease though not much. This should reduce or use of deet for other bugs also. Cheers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin
In case anyone still cares... Phrophylactically was referential to Prophylaxis
Prophylaxis (Greek "προφυλάσσω" to guard or prevent beforehand) is any medical or public health procedure whose purpose is to prevent, rather than treat or cure a disease. ...
Does anyone know this?
Can Lyme disease look like a bruise. My wife has a large bruise on her leg and doesn't remember bumping into anything that might have caused a bruise.
Panzer
I'm just posting to bump this question up for a second look. If your wife has been bitten you need to know asap.
warraghiyagey
06-19-2009, 08:57
I have a friend who very recently got lyme disease and in addition to the meds has found that rubbing extra virgin olive oil (EVOO) all over has helped tremedously. . . .
Sidewinder
06-19-2009, 09:24
I have a friend who very recently got lyme disease and in addition to the meds has found that rubbing extra virgin olive oil (EVOO) all over has helped tremedously. . . .
can the evoo be self applied of do you need help from a close friend?
warraghiyagey
06-19-2009, 09:30
can the evoo be self applied of do you need help from a close friend?
Actually, she told me it was one of the herbal remedy holistic healers that helped, and she said she already feels much better and more energetic after only a few days. . . it took me weeks to get my energy level back when I had it. . . .
Where you been Sidewinder, hikin?
Sidewinder
06-19-2009, 09:52
Actually, she told me it was one of the herbal remedy holistic healers that helped, and she said she already feels much better and more energetic after only a few days. . . it took me weeks to get my energy level back when I had it. . . .
Where you been Sidewinder, hikin?
my pass expired, had to go back in for a little while
warraghiyagey
06-19-2009, 10:02
my pass expired, had to go back in for a little while
oh. . . . . . . ummmm . . . . . . . oh. . . . .
Actually, she told me it was one of the herbal remedy holistic healers that helped, and she said she already feels much better and more energetic after only a few days. . . it took me weeks to get my energy level back when I had it. . . .
Where you been Sidewinder, hikin?
How long do you think you had it before it was diagnosed? From what I've read, the longer treatment is delayed the longer it takes to recover. In cases where the diagnosis is missed, residual effects (fatigue, joint pain, etc.) can be permanent.
Or so I've read.
warraghiyagey
06-19-2009, 10:22
How long do you think you had it before it was diagnosed? From what I've read, the longer treatment is delayed the longer it takes to recover. In cases where the diagnosis is missed, residual effects (fatigue, joint pain, etc.) can be permanent.
Or so I've read.
You've heard correctly. . . I may have had it about 8 days or so before friends told me to look for one of the tell-tale signs (which isn't always present) the bullseye, shave my torso and BAM!, there it was, started treatment on day 9 and only suffered fatigue and sweats for a few weeks. . . .
Had a friend from the same area that got it about a year later and went undiagnosed for three months. . . . he was a logger/woodsman and he still suffers excrutiating joint pain, memory loss and neurological disorders, and always will. . . . once it gets that far the damage can't be reversed. . . . I'm never an alarmist but just be prudent checking if you wonder. . . ;)
I'm never an alarmist but just be prudent checking if you wonder. . . ;)
You got that right... If I EVER think I'm getting the flu I'm ALWAYS going to consider lyme a possibility.
10-K- that's a good question and I can't answer for Warraghy. After two days of headache, stiff neck and fatigue I went to the doc on Tuesday of this week . She suspected Lyme and started me on Doxycycline, my blood test came back yesterday positive for Lyme. I am feeling a little better after taking the med for three days, but still very fatigued. I found a tick on me April 24th, not sure if this was the tick that infected me or not. It is the only one I have found that was attached. I did not have the bullseye rash that so many find. But, I have been very tired for several weeks, not sure if the fatigue was caused from the Lyme or from the bronchitis I had following Trail Days.
warraghiyagey
06-19-2009, 10:35
But, I have been very tired for several weeks, not sure if the fatigue was caused from the Lyme or from the bronchitis I had following Trail Days.
Maybe you're just lazy. . . .
brooklynkayak
06-22-2009, 07:02
We have cats so we perm. treat or hiking clothes and store them in dry bags on a top shelf and never mix them with our home clothing. We change into them when we arrive to our destination outdoors.
Yesterday my wife found a tick on her after walking a few feet to a place where she could change into her outdoor clothing. I had already changed so we put the tick on my treated pants and watched it. It was rolling and walking around in twitchy circles almost immediately. I guess it took about 20 to 30 minutes to die.
Out hiking around sky meadows state park va ticks ticks everywhere