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TIDE-HSV
06-09-2009, 13:58
When I started packing in the Park (as an adult that is, not a Boy Scout), in the early '70s, they estimated the total bear population at around 400-500. Now, they estimate around 1500 (some estimate even more). My question is as to how this came about. I don't think the food supply is any greater. Hunting pressure around the perimeter and less poaching has been suggested. This is really about the only reason I can think of. Has anyone heard of, or thought of, any other factors?

hikergirl1120
06-09-2009, 13:59
GLobal warming? Isn't that the reason for everything??...JK

TIDE-HSV
06-09-2009, 14:02
Hot house bears? :rolleyes:

Reid
06-09-2009, 14:04
It's just that.........an estimate. It's possible that they were just wrong back then or they are just wrong now, I don't really know.

zoidfu
06-09-2009, 14:07
They've probably been driven into the park because of development of the surrounding areas.

TIDE-HSV
06-09-2009, 14:11
Whenever they were wrong, I have no doubt that there are far more now than back then. A sighting was very rare back then but not now. Bear "incidents" are sharply on the rise also. Back then, the best place to see a bear was on the road, panhandling or raiding garbage cans. Maybe now that the NPS has cleaned up that side of it, they all have moved back out to the backcountry...

hikergirl1120
06-09-2009, 14:14
Maybe more tasty hikers out on the trail???

TIDE-HSV
06-09-2009, 14:18
LOL! THe NPS does feel that the higher density of hikers is a factor in the "incident" count. Maybe the surrounding natives can't hit anything with their rifles - crystal meth...

Alaskanhkr23
06-09-2009, 14:18
Bears Are Fuzzy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hikergirl1120
06-09-2009, 14:21
LOL! THe NPS does feel that the higher density of hikers is a factor in the "incident" count. Maybe the surrounding natives can't hit anything with their rifles - crystal meth...


I think you've hit the nail on the head....we all know bears LOVE crystal meth!! :eek:

Alaskanhkr23
06-09-2009, 14:22
Really i knew there was suttin wrong with yogi

Tenderheart
06-09-2009, 14:41
Whenever they were wrong, I have no doubt that there are far more now than back then. A sighting was very rare back then but not now. Bear "incidents" are sharply on the rise also. Back then, the best place to see a bear was on the road, panhandling or raiding garbage cans. Maybe now that the NPS has cleaned up that side of it, they all have moved back out to the backcountry...


I think you hit it. Now that the NPS has bear-proofed the garbage cans, bears have regained their fear of humans. When I was a small boy riding through the park, every wayside area on Newfound Gap Road was a parking lot. I remember once, going to Gatlinburg with my family, we saw ten bears. Each one was at the picnic tables where the garbage was. Perhaps with their natural order somewhat restored, they are more plentiful.

litefoot 2000

Alaskanhkr23
06-09-2009, 14:51
bears are FUZZY and they can eat you how sad is that?? i wanna hug them but then that fact that they will eat me sets in,im like OOOOHHHHHHHH but look how fuzzy it is.......

TIDE-HSV
06-09-2009, 15:06
Now that the NPS has bear-proofed the garbage cans, bears have regained their fear of humans.

Well, let's say they're making progress, by tranquilizing and subjecting the the bears to examination, plus rubber bullets, minor explosives, etc. We were up in Big Creek this last weekend where we've had some bear problems before. One reason I chose that area was that I knew there would be people in the Walnut Bottom site on a Sunday night. This was mostly for my wife. She had her pack stolen at Sheep Pen Gap back in the 90s. It wasn't just that, but I'd run it off all the previous day with rocks and it persisted in coming back. We woke up that Monday AM to it's jumping for our food (it learned how to chew through ropes during that next week). That time, we'd been with a group, all of whom had left on that Sunday, leaving us alone. Since then, she's more relaxed when she knows there'll be more people around. BTW, the vBulletin "ignore" feature is very useful... ;)

Alaskanhkr23
06-09-2009, 15:12
fuzzy wuzzy was a bear fuzzy wuzzy had no hair

makoboy
06-09-2009, 15:14
fuzzy wuzzy wasnt very fuzzy was he

TIDE-HSV
06-09-2009, 15:15
BTW, Litefoot, did you run into Krewzer back on your thru-hike?

Alaskanhkr23
06-09-2009, 15:16
no he wasn't makoboy,he was the outcast of the group and was abused by the other bears

OldStormcrow
06-09-2009, 15:44
Not only have the rangers and DNR guys seriously cracked down on poaching since the 70's, but the bears' habitat has been rapidly shrinking.....the region has gotten so heavily developed and they can't afford the ski resorts or the bed and breakfasts, so that just leaves them the Smokies and places like that.

ChinMusic
06-09-2009, 15:49
Density of a bear = ~ 1000 kg/m3

TIDE-HSV
06-09-2009, 15:55
Good point, crow. The surrounding territory certainly looks different today than in '72. Looking at Knoxville news the night before we started our hike last week, another bear had been found and tranquilized in town there...

Ashepabst
06-09-2009, 18:27
i'm sure it's just a natural restoration after being nearly hunted out of the area. and now they don't have predators to compete with besides coyote.

take-a-knee
06-09-2009, 18:30
GA DNR says that N. Ga's bear population is about 1500 animals and that is carrying capacity for the habitat. The biologists probably have an accurate number, IMO.

Tin Man
06-09-2009, 18:35
Density of a bear = ~ 1000 kg/m3

yes, but how much of that is hiker?

TIDE-HSV
06-09-2009, 18:46
Ashe, that bleeds over into the "refuge" idea. Back in the late '80s, my wife and I had a camper on the Quallah Boundary for a year. A yearling wandered down into the Raven Fork community, where we were, and it was dead within 15 minutes. When I protested, my NA friends gently explained to me how much the bear was worth dead - claws, gall bladder, etc. Maybe crystal meth did save the bears - more money in that than in poaching...

Ashepabst
06-23-2009, 11:42
hey Tide -- you may've seen this on hikinginthesmokies.com post listing a bunch of B bear stats from this (http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/general/view.bg?articleid=1178759&srvc=rss) AP article.

"However, the All Taxa Biodiversity Inventory being conducted by Discover Life in America estimates (http://www.dlia.org/atbi/species/Animalia/Chordata/Mammalia/Carnivora/Ursidae/Ursus_americanus.shtml) that there are now 1800 bears in the park. I happen to have a copy of the October, 1968 issue of National Geographic Magazine which includes an article that reports that there were only 300 bears living in the park back then."
[http://hikinginthesmokys.blogspot.com/2009/06/black-bear-statistics.html]

TIDE-HSV
06-23-2009, 12:11
I have seen that. The more I think about it, the more I think my theory that the increased density is restricting problem bears to a smaller area may be true - hence sites close together may have one closed and the one next to it open. Back in the late '70s, there was, even then, bear problems at Walnut Bottoms and on Spruce. Thing about it was, it was the same bear, ranging all the way up and down the mountain. This came from the ranger who'd tagged her. If the estimates were correct that there were about 500 or so then in the park, then the top of Spruce and Walnut Bottoms are probably separate bear territories, occupied by animals willing to defend their turfs...

Ashepabst
06-23-2009, 15:16
you think more competition could mean bolder bears?

TIDE-HSV
06-23-2009, 15:24
Probably. Hungry = bold...

Egads
06-23-2009, 18:00
I'm more interested in beer density. Anyone up to a thread drift?

Foyt20
06-23-2009, 18:01
El Nino.....

TIDE-HSV
06-23-2009, 19:13
Yep, they said there was a bumper crop of those last year...

RoanDog
06-30-2009, 18:56
I have lived in NE Tn for 10 years. In addition to backpacking, I spend a lot of time in the winter months Grouse hunting (aka hiking with a shotgun). I see more bear sign every year. Tracks, logs broken open, claw marks in the apple trees, etc. Many of the deer hunters say the same thing. The population seems to be growing thoughout the southern appalachians. The population in eastern NC has also grown.

The deer population has been growing for years also. The boom in the deer heard in the south was originally credited to the eradication of the screwworm by the cattle industry. I deer hunted as a teenager in the early 80's and we were just lucky to even see a deer. Now they are everywhere. I don't know if that has been a factor with the bears also.

Rockhound
06-30-2009, 20:38
If a bear gets your food bag does that mean you're denser than he is?

Lone Wolf
06-30-2009, 20:40
If a bear gets your food bag does that mean you're denser than he is?

it means you are a dumbass

Tractor
06-30-2009, 20:57
At least hungry in the mornin'

TIDE-HSV
07-01-2009, 14:11
Happy to report a bear density of zero at Sheep Pen Gap. both nights we were there, there were about ten folks (cpy is 15, so lots of no-shows). One of our party saw one on the way down Forge Creek yesterday, but it was my favorite kind - disinterested. However, mice got in the food bag again the first night at #12. Folks came in late and, POed that the hooks were full, pushed my mouse guard up, splitting it apart and disabling it...

Pedaling Fool
07-23-2009, 20:39
http://www.fbnewsleader.com/articles/2009/07/22/today/web%20thurs.txt

More bears.

mateozzz
07-23-2009, 21:05
Hmmm, I think you mean the bear population density has increased, not the bear density. Bear density would be if you put a bear in a garbage can and compressed it, then you would get a denser bear (and a mess). Or am I just being dense?

TIDE-HSV
07-24-2009, 09:27
Picky, picky...

TIDE-HSV
07-24-2009, 09:36
The sites on warning continue to flip-flop. Back in June, we were in the Big Creek area and 37 was on warning, and 38 was not. At present, 38 is on warning and 37 is not. By the time I'm next in the area, second week in August, it'll reverse again. I just hope they don't close one of our stops...

Pedaling Fool
07-24-2009, 09:48
http://www.fbnewsleader.com/articles/2009/07/22/today/web%20thurs.txt

More bears.
Whoops....I just noticed this thread is in the GSMNP forum. When I posted this I was thinking bear density in general, because there just seems to be a lot of bear news lately; their populations seems to be on the rise. The bear in the above story had to swim across a good swath of water to be seen it that location (or crossed via a bridge), it's also very close to where I live -- it's a local story.

TIDE-HSV
07-24-2009, 09:58
Not a problem. I realized your point. My attention was focused on the Park because, it seems to me, wherever I go there now, there's bear warnings, closures, etc., including some where there just wasn't much bear activity, historically...

edtheshark
09-21-2009, 15:20
One of the reasons bear population numbers have increased in GSMNP and in the southeast in general is due to better management of public(and private) lands where these bears reside. Also more knowledge of their activities through years of bear research (have you ever seen a bear with a radio-collar), increases our knowledge and helps land managers make informed decisions in regards to bears.
Another reason for their increase in GSMNP specifically, is that better habitat produces more food. With more food the adults can eat more/ be more healthy, and can in turn support more offspring. Put this together with a lower rate of disturbance ( as long as people follow the rules and stay on the trails) and its quite the place for black bears in the Appalachians.

sliderule
09-21-2009, 16:59
Whenever they were wrong, I have no doubt that there are far more now than back then. A sighting was very rare back then but not now.

That is just the opposite of my experience. I saw far more bears in the 70's than I have seen in recent years. In fact, I saw more bears around the Mt. LeConte Lodge on one day back in the 70's than I have seen in the past few years combined. (That's back when they used to open the garbage pit every afternoon so the bears would entertain the lodge guests.)

In the 70's, it seemed that every shelter had a resident bear or bear family. It was almost guaranteed that a bear would show up at dinner time and force the humans behind the fence.

My son has been hiking with me for the past few years. He has yet to see his first bear in the GSMNP backcountry. And that includes stays at Sheep Pen Gap, Walnut Bottoms, Mt Sterling, Mt LeConte and many of the AT shelters.