Canoe advice needed

[sirbingo]

I am planning on canoeing the the NH section of the Appalachian trail this month and I need some advice....

Just kidding... ;) Actually, I just need a canoe for fishing and some overnight camping trips with the wife and kid. Does anybody have canoe advice for me? How big should it be? Are all canoes made equal? Whats the cost for one?

Thanks in advance!

:sun

[Alligator]

Canoes have various trade-offs. I have an Old Town Scout. It's made for white water, but can carry a decent load. It doesn't have a keel so it doesn't track well in still water. It could hold three if I added an extra seat. Fishing would be less desirable in it because it has a bit of roll to it for flexibility. (I think they call it primary vs secondary stability). Will you be fishing alone? A big boat is harder to paddle by yourself, unless you stick a motor on it that is:).

I haven't purchased one in many years so I don't know the prices. Check the Old Town website though, they make excellent canoes of all sorts and have info on making selections.

[sirbingo]

Thanks Alligator I'l check out that Old Town website. What's the difference between primary vs secondary stability? I plan on fishing and sometimes and also going out on the lake myself once in awhile.

[weary]

For years, I used an OLd Town Tripper with my wife and kids. It's around 17.5 feet long, quite stable, and holds three quite handily. It's not ultra light but I could portage it on my back for a mile or two when needed. I finally wrapped it around a rock on the LOwer Dead in Maine, which ended it's life.

In my opinion most people buy canoes that are too short, and thus sit too low in the water, making paddling more difficult, not easier.

The Tripper used to sell for around $1,000. I haven't priced them lately. But it's a boat that will last a lifetime.

Weary

[mister krabs]

One thing I've learned is that boats are even bigger exercises in compromise than hiking gear! A keel is a canoe designer's kludge for a bad hull shape. Good touring canoes track well because they have a hull shape that is conducive to going straight. Longer canoes are faster, shorter are slower because of the theory of "hull speed."

There's a lot to consider in choosing a canoe, length, capacity, weight and hull shape are the biggest factors. Long and thin is fast and tippy, short and wide is slow and stable. "Rocker" is the amount the hull ends are from horizontal, the amount of space you can see between the canoe ends and the concrete if you set it on the driveway. Lots of rocker make the canoe easy to turn, like a whitewater canoe, less rocker makes the canoe track straight, like a tripping canoe. Perpendicular to rocker is how v-shaped the bottom is. Flat is stable and slow, v-shaped is faster and tippier. You *do* want to be able to carry it solo, a good yoke in the middle is vital for this, and you don't want it to be too heavy to carry comfortably. For me that puts the max weight around 85#. Learn how to lift it correctly solo, from your knee.

Also, consider materials, from heaviest and bombproof aluminum down through plastic, fiberglass, kevlar, wood and skin on frame delicate feathers.

FWIW, I have a 20y.o. old town discovery 158 that I bought new. It's a good all around recreational plastic canoe, big enough for two, gear and a kid, fairly cheap and available. Good at many things, exceeding at none, except being indestructible.

You can spend from a couple hundred on craigslist. Regular tandem canoes from respected companies go from about 800$ to about 2000$. Handmade wood canoes go up from there.

Do some work on paddling.net before you jump at anything.

[bigcranky]

I have an elderly Old Town 146K. That means it's 14 feet 6 inches long, and the K means it has a keel. It's beamy (wide) and stable, and makes a good fishing boat. A careful paddler can stand up in it. We carried three people back when our daughter was 4 or 5 years old, but it's really made for one or two adults. It's great for mucking about in swamps and marshes and other flat water. Not so good for moving water.

All canoes are not created equal. Many boats these days are made from roto-molded polyethelene, which is inexpensive but heavy. Also, indestructible. ABS boats are light and more expensive, and still pretty durable. The lightest and most expensive boats are Kevlar or fiberglass layups.

Beyond the material, you'll want to decide the shape and type of boat. For fishing and general flatwater stuff, a flat bottomed boat with a keel and a wide beam is generally a good idea.

Primary vs Secondary stability: this is the general shape of the hull and how the boat is designed (and for what purpose). A flat bottomed boat has a lot of primary stability -- but once you tip it past a certain point, it goes over.

A boat designed for moving water will feel "tippy" because of the hull design, but it can be laid over on its side without tipping over. That is "secondary stability." Requires more skill to use, because it feels unstable when you first get in it. (Why lay the boat over on its side (lean it)? Because that shortens the waterline and makes the boat turn faster and be more maneuverable and easier to control in moving water.)

[mister krabs]

all you need to know about hull shape, primary and secondary stability

http://www.paddling.net/guidelines/showArticle.html?86

[take-a-knee]

Where, as in what type of water (river or lake), are you fishing? That matters a lot. The Old Town Pack (royalex hull) or the Old Town Discovery 119, which is the same canoe in a cheaper, heavier plastic (33# for the Pack and 43# for the discovery), these are about ideal for a river float fisherman, using a kayak paddle of 240cm. Dick's Sporting Goods sells a version called the Kay Nue made for them by Old Town. These canoes are too short and slow for distance paddling across a lake, this isn't a factor on float trip.

For two folks a standard 16 or 17ft canoe works fine, the person in the stern will mostly paddle on a river to maintain boat control. If the person in the stern is going to fish, they must be extremely careful not to hook the bow occupant with a sidearmed cast.

[paddler]

primary stability is how stable the boat feels just sitting in it secondary is how far you can lean it before you tip you can feel the balance point when you leen over there is a fine line before you tipp

[brooklynkayak]

What's the difference between primary vs secondary stability?

Primary stability means a flatter bottom that doesn't feel tippy. This at the cost more drag in the water and a tendency to surf in rough water. High primary stability is good for inexperienced paddlers who are sticking to calm water.

Secondary stability comes into play when the boat is edged. A boat with low primary, but high secondary, will feel tippy to a beginner, but it's actually pretty stable on edge. It will also be a more efficient boat to paddle, will maneuver well and will handle rough conditions better. It will require more skill to be happy with it though.

I always recommend taking a canoe skills class or two. You won't believe how much you will learn and how much fun you will have. Check out the American Canoe Association or British Canoe Union web sites. They have classes pretty much everywhere in the US.

Having the skills allows you to go more places, paddle safer and enjoy canoing more.

[mudhead]

Might be smart to rent one a couple times.

Don't forget seat cushions, or you'll never get her to go again.

[hoz]

Hard to beat the old standby, a 16' aluminum Grumann or Michicraft beater.

Almost indestructible, hard to tip over (keep your head inside the gunnels), available used around $300.00.

If not aluminum Royalex or Royalite is what you want NOT polyethelene.

Old Town canoes are not what they used to be. They've gone recreational, trying to appeal to the masses. Some of their canoes even have cupholders forgawdsakes! And heavy, Heavy, HEAVY. Old Town doesn't make a lightweight canoe, did they ever?

I'd recommend buying used if you can, just check it out. Flip it over and make sure the keel isn't "hogged" (sloping in) Make sure the keel line is straight and that the canoe hasn't been wrapped.

Otherwise Mohawk Canoe make some pretty good entry level canoes. http://www.mohawkcanoes.com/home.htmI can vouch for their designs, materials and workmanship.

[hoz]

Make that
http://www.mohawkcanoes.com/home.htm

[mister krabs]

Hard to beat the old standby, a 16' aluminum Grumann or Michicraft beater.

Almost indestructible, hard to tip over (keep your head inside the gunnels), available used around $300.00.

If not aluminum Royalex or Royalite is what you want NOT polyethelene.

Old Town canoes are not what they used to be. They've gone recreational, trying to appeal to the masses. Some of their canoes even have cupholders forgawdsakes! And heavy, Heavy, HEAVY. Old Town doesn't make a lightweight canoe, did they ever?

I'd recommend buying used if you can, just check it out. Flip it over and make sure the keel isn't "hogged" (sloping in) Make sure the keel line is straight and that the canoe hasn't been wrapped.

Otherwise Mohawk Canoe make some pretty good entry level canoes. http://www.mohawkcanoes.com/home.htmI can vouch for their designs, materials and workmanship.


Hoz has good points, but get a yoke for that grumman, or you'll be draggin' it. And for goodness sakes, stay away from anything with a cupholder.

Polyethelene is heavy, but I like it. My 85# 15'8" still looks great after being stored outside for 20 years. I've recently revarnished the thwarts and yoke. The brass nameplate could use repainting. It's darn near indestructible and has a certain "slide" over river rocks that many other canoes would get stuck on. Kind of like those furniture moving disks. Pops out like rubbermaid too where you'd have a dent or a crack on anything else. I can only speak for old town crosslink sandwich polyethelene, not for anything else. They still make em, exactly the same as they've been -sans cupholders :p though they did have some awful experiment for a few years where they replaced the discovery classic boat with a discovery hull and a semi-deck-3-seat-with-cupholders thing. It was less than useless. I would avoid a plastic boat that has a "frame" like a coleman or a pelican.

[Ladytrekker]

Craigslist the best place to buy, I have bought two kayaks from Craigslist at considerable savings

[OldStormcrow]

Check out the websites for Old Towne, Perception, Native, Bell, Dagger, Mad River, etc. to get some stats on various models. One thing to consider is the weight and how you will be transporting this boat, on top of a low suv, on top of a big ol' van or in the back of a pickup truck. Beware of cheap roto-molded "family-style" boats at places like Oshmans, Dicks or Sports Authority. While being inexpensive, these boats are basically like kid's wading pools with paddles. You can also check out the Sunrift.com website for their online boat list with fairly recent prices and inventory. They're not anywhere near you, but it will give you an idea of the price ranges.

[mister krabs]

Wow, still pretty much what I paid 20 years ago, I got a blemished boat and I think it was near 700$

Old TownDisco 158 RED$879

[bigcranky]

Agree with Mr Krabs, my old crosslink poly Old Town boat has lasted forever. Yeah, it's heavy and clunky and turns like a bathtub in moving water (but then it's a flatwater boat), but I still like it. Lots of good memories in that boat.

[solobip]

You might want to check out this link If you are still shopping for a canoe, they also review kayaks. http://www.paddling.net/canoeing.html

[beakerman]

While there are several very reputable companies listed in this post and each has it's valid case to make at being the right canoe for you. I will try a different approach. I will tell you one canoe to stay as far away from as humanly possible...those coleman canoes. They are a polyethylene based material and while not all that heavy and they seem nice when you first get one they are not something you are going to like after a year or so of moderate use.

The biggest problems with them is that keel design. I'm not going to get into a discussion about whether a keel is a good thing or not that is not the point. It is the way they make it. Ddue to the flexibility of the hull material they need to put a keel pole down teh middle of the hull it is supported by an upright frame member that then goes to the the cros beam--they try to call it a yoke but it's the ugliest yoke you'll ever see. Anyway this arrangement allows the long keel pole to slide back and forth in the keel an it will eventually poke a hole right trhough the front of the hull. Another issue if you manage to keep that from happening is the darned things always have negative rocker. The ends are lower than the middle which makes them handle like crap even with the a massive keel.

[bigcranky]

While there are several very reputable companies listed in this post and each has it's valid case to make at being the right canoe for you. I will try a different approach. I will tell you one canoe to stay as far away from as humanly possible...those coleman canoes.

That's funny. When we were shopping for our canoe fifteen years ago, we got *exactly* the same advice from friends.

[The Will]

Some extra emphasis. . .say no to Coleman.

There is a material called Royalex that is used on many canoes. Companies will often have their own versions of this. It is of course heavier than a Kevlar boat but it is nearly indestructible. You can wrap your boat around a rock and just pound it out again. The material itself is very buoyant--on a canoe trip in Canada, a friend's similarly loaded Old Town Discovery 168 showed an impressive amount of freeboard when compared to my Kevlar boat. Royalex is also one of the lesser expensive materials to make a boat out of. If you are going to be using a canoe for a more general use (not whitewater, or river, or big lake backcountry trips) than it is a great option.

As you mentioned, if you will be doing a lot of fishing out of the boat there are many models that have a flat stern section that allows for the mounting of a small motor.

[Jim Adams]

OK...FWIW I'm going to speak up here.
The main point to consider is your canoeing experience and where you will be paddling.
Royalex is great, a little heavy and is not cheap.
Kevlar is light but is expensive and easily damaged if you are not a skilled paddler. (yes Old Town did make light boats)
Fiberglass should be considered as heavy and weaker kevlar.
Poly cross link or linear link will last forever but you need to hire a group of porters to carry and load it for you. Also the hull designs are not very good for any type of efficiency.
Aluminum is average weight approximately he same as royalex in weight, strong and will last forever unless destroyed in rapids. Also the aluminum boat will "stick" to every rock that it touches and is noisy as well as cold.
"junk" boats will have molded in cup holders and thwarts (cross beams) and will be very cheap for a new boat but are poor designs, weak construction and very heavy.
Thin plastic polystyrene such as a Coleman will last awhile, be fairly light and are suseptable more quickly to ultra violet damage than almost any other material.

High primary stability is usually associated with more stability UPRIGHT and less performance.
High secondary stability usually means that although feeling "tippy" while upright they "stiffen up" and become very stable as the gunwhale (edge) gets closer to the water on a lean. Usually this is associated with higher performance.
I high primary stability canoe will be hard to lean but then suddenly flip over when the "edge" is met.
A high secondary stability canoe will get harder to lean as the gunwhale approaches the water surface and usually the paddlers will fall out of the boat and it will remain upright.
Canoes aren't tippy, people are. If the canoe is put into the water empty without people IT WILL NOT TIP OVER!

With all of that said I have a few suggestions that will rile a few feathers here.
If you are paddling flat water and are inexperienced search the ads (Craig's List, Ebay, etc.) and buy an aluminum canoe. They are fairly efficient, usually stable not too heavy and CHEAP!
If you will be paddling flat water and mild whitewater and have no experience buy a Coleman. Again, they will be cheap, last fairly well, not too heavy, although slow they track fairly good and if you destroy it you're not out alot of cash. The bar running down the bottom is not so much as a keel as an attempt to stiffen the hull and stop it from "oil canning".
The only Old Town Cross link plastic boat that I would purchase is the 169 or 16'9". The hull design is the best of the lot.
Stick to a general design rather than a difficult to paddle specialized design that is above your ability.
Buy cheap used and have fun. Learn to paddle and what you like best about paddling (my son only paddles whitewater and my daughter only likes lakes) and then spend alittle more on the next boat to get more of what you want.
Alittle more performance may let you become a better paddler quicker or discourage you to the point of quiting. Heed this warning!
Paddle as many different kinds as you can and then buy what you liked the best.
Did I say have fun yet!!!!! Make sure you purchase something that you will enjoy using, after all isn't that why you are buying it in the first place?

OK, why am I giving advice here?
Creds: I have been a canoist for 32 years. I have been a whitewater guide for 30 years. I have been a canoing instructor for 27 years. I have paddled class 6 whitewater in an open canoe back in the day when I was younger and paddled an 18' and a 23' waterfall in an open canoe. I have been canoeing above the Arctic Circle twice on extended canoe expeditions.
I am rapidly approaching the 28,000 mile mark in my canoeing history and during my 2002 thru hike I took 2 weeks off the trail to run the Whitewater Nationals in Ohiopyle, Pa. My partner and I ran the Down River National on a rapidly rising flooded river and took 2nd overall in the Rec. Boat class against the Daggar, Old Town, Mad River and Mohawk factory boats....in a 15' Coleman.

geek

[hoz]

Impressive resume there Jim. How do you feel about the Twin Tex canoes by Esquif?

[fiddlehead]

I agree the Coleman is an entry level only canoe.
If you want something that will last but still relatively inexpensive, i'd go with Old Town.
I have a Royalex 16'9" and i believe it is rated to carry 1200 lbs.
Flat hull, good for lakes or whitewater (keeled hull might be better for flatwater but that's debatable)

anyway, it's been good to me. I've wrapped it around rocks doing whitewater with it twice. Simply set it in the sun, make a new yoke and it looks almost as good as new.
I even won a race with it once.
I've had it for 20 years now it is still a good canoe and i think i only paid around $400 for it by buying a blem direct at the factory in northern Maine (oreno i think it was)

See if they still sell 2nds or blems. They always had great deals that way.

[mister krabs]

If you get an aluminum canoe, know that there are few things more jarring out in the wilderness than the sound of inexperienced paddlers with aluminum paddles in an aluminum canoe. :eek:

[Jim Adams]

Impressive resume there Jim. How do you feel about the Twin Tex canoes by Esquif?
I haven't tried any of the Esquif boats but my son has done some testing for them.

geek

[OldStormcrow]

The Esquif boats are schweeeet! I've been lusting after one for years. They are very light weight, but kinda pricy. The Mallard is 45 lbs. and the Heron is 69 lbs.

[hoz]

The Esquif boats are schweeeet! I've been lusting after one for years. They are very light weight, but kinda pricy. The Mallard is 45 lbs. and the Heron is 69 lbs.

I saw their tandem at Canoecopia this year. REALLY NICE. The only minuses are it is almost impossible to DIY repair, epoxy doesn't stick to it. There is a 2 part caulk/glue that can be used but it costs big bucks..

[JAK]

Here is a good explaination of stability, and other design considerations.
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/guillemot/information/kayak_design/kayak_stability

Some general comments:
Stability may be roughly compared as Width^3 x Length / Total Weight

Adding people weight lowers the metacenter, so it makes a boat more tippy. Making a boat 10% wider allows it to carry roughly 1/3 more cargo. Wider boats aren't neccessarily slower. If a boat is shorter and wider it might have less surface area, so it can be easier to paddle at slower cruising speeds. Slower cruising speeds would be speeds less than the square root of the length, like less than 4mph for a 16' waterline. Above this wave making resistance becomes more important than skin friction alone. maximum so called 'hull speed' is 1.34 x square root of waterline, but in knots, or 1.6 x in mph, so 6.4 mph for a 16' waterline. Waterline is more important for racing. For cruising, a boat can be shorter, but if too short it doesn't track well. A rudder slows a boat down to much and is usually best avoided, except for a sailing canoe. A rudder can make a kayak much easier to steer downwind in big waves though.

The design displacement is very important. The 'ideal' hull shape for a given purpose varies, but whatever it is it can usually be scaled up or down to suit different design displacements, assuming the purpose remains the same. A boat designed for a range of loads, like 1 adult plus gear, up to 2 adults plus child and gear, might be tricky. Having a narrower waterline beam makes it easier. Besides giving the boat more secondary stability, which is good in itself, it will maintain stability as the boat is loaded. This is because in the above formula, beam (width) can increase as the boat is displaced lower into the water.

I like both canoes and kayaks. My favourite design of all time is the Micmac Rough Sea Canoe, as documented by Edwin Tappin Adney in his famous book. It was notable for its tumblehome on the sides and ends, and the hogged sheer in the middle. It was originally quite narrow for its length, but got wider in the 1800s for use with a sail and for commerce in the more modern sense. It was large, like 24' long and originally 28" wide, later 34" wide. Scaled down to a 1 or 2 person canoe this might be 17'-20' long and only 20" to 28" wide, similar to modern kayaks.

http://books.google.com/books?id=1adokGCe08oC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=%22micmac%22+%22birch+bark%22+adney&source=bl&ots=uUXU1APIlG&sig=Z-_bNcrPOtMewc0Bs2oTd2a8i5Q&hl=en&ei=mk8ySpPgH5iQmAe5jIWWCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

For a canoe suitable for 1 adult plus gear up to 2 adults plus child and gear, plus the 60# hull itself, this might call for a design displacement of 300 pounds up to 500, 600, or even 700 pounds. The top end is very important. If you can keep the maximum load down, using light camping gear without too much extras, and you are a running family that loves ultralight hiking, rather than say a family that loves their BBQ, brings it with them along with half their lawn furniture, that can make for much narrower and shorter and lighter boat, easier to paddle, easier to portage, and easier to car top.

The difference can be quite subtle however, with good design practice. A fast boat well tracking for 500 pounds max could be 17'x28". A the same boat scaled to 700 pounds, but shortened and widened, might be 16'x32" for the same stability. The first family might be better off with more of a decked canoe with less freeboard, and still have room for gear in fore and aft compartments. The second family might need an open canoe to fit all their stuff. The decked canoes tend to be better on open water. I would add some floation foam on the inside sides of the cockpit, in order to reduce free surface effect and the amount of water I have to bail out after capsizing. I do that with my kayak also.

Here is a good looking decked canoe:
http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/canoes/decked_canoes/CLC-MILLCREEK-16.html
It is beamier than it really needs to be because it is also fitted as a sailing canoe.
Note the light weight. I wouldn't use a nice wooden boat for fast shallow rivers though.

Its hard to find a good decked canoe in plastic. They are naturally heavier, but also the hull form tends to be compromised because they aren't stiff enough. But they can be cheap and functional, if they fit your purpose. These ones are not too bad:

http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/kayaks/tandem/loon_160t.html

It would be nice to see something like this in a better material, like fibreglass, and with watertight bulkheads at each end of the cockpit, and some bouyancy foam on the insides of the cockpit also. The design concept of a decked canoe is a good one, but usually not well executed in production boats.

If you like the idea of a decked canoe, another way to go is to take a more agressive open canoe, meaning narrower with shallower freeboard, around what you might be looking for in a decked canoe once you figure that out, and then deck it over and add bulkheads if it is fibreglass, or just use floatation bags and drybags strapped to the hull if it is made of roayex or something like that and want to do some semi-white water now and then.

http://www.wenonah.com/products/template/product_detail.php?IID=39&SID=b8cf698bb6eda273b090eebc7cb43390

[canoehead]

What ever canoe you choose. Be sure to take a lesson.
I own www.tekoamountainoutdoors.com (http://www.tekoamountainoutdoors.com). We run (Intro to canoeing & kayaking classes) and they are well attended. If your putting your family into the water then be sure they know how to respond safely.
Be safe - Have fun.

Tim

[JAK]

My own bias is that a canoe or kayak should be easy and fun to tip over and self rescue, so that you are more inclined to do so for practice, and more capable of dealing with such an occurence when it happens when you don't want it to. I know many people, perhaps even most people, go years and years without capsizing. That is certainly one way to go.

[Jim Adams]

What ever canoe you choose. Be sure to take a lesson.
I own www.tekoamountainoutdoors.com (http://www.tekoamountainoutdoors.com). We run (Intro to canoeing & kayaking classes) and they are well attended. If your putting your family into the water then be sure they know how to respond safely.
Be safe - Have fun.

Tim

Probably the best advice on this thread!:cool:
Take the lessons first...it may help you decide what type of canoe that you want.

geek

[rootball]

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