PDA

View Full Version : Greedy ****ers



Pages : [1] 2

bobbyw
06-16-2009, 13:19
I just got off the trail and I had a great time. I'm hoping to work during the summer and go back out and catch hikers in the fall. On another note: I wanted to make sure everyone is aware that some hostels think that when they put the words "free" AND "donations accepted" into all the guidebooks and on their signs that this means "every single person needs to work to donate money to stay here, or we are telling you we are openly going to you to the hikers behind you".

This is seriously ****ed up and I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see one hostel owner do it more than once. I'm not going to name names, but hopefully the right people catch wind of this and straighten the **** up... Just be careful guys!

Alaskanhkr23
06-16-2009, 13:22
That's really messed up. I thought hstel's wiere donation or free.

Alaskanhkr23
06-16-2009, 13:22
Hostel's sorry laptop sucks

jersey joe
06-16-2009, 13:35
"every single person needs to work to donate money to stay here, or we are telling you we are openly going to you to the hikers behind you".
Not sure I understand what your complaint is, the above statement is cryptic.

bobbyw
06-16-2009, 13:38
Not sure I understand what your complaint is, the above statement is cryptic.

typo.

every single person needs to work at the hostile or donate money,
or when you hike out, everyone gets told that you're a scumbag.

chomp
06-16-2009, 13:45
typo.

every single person needs to work at the hostile or donate money,
or when you hike out, everyone gets told that you're a scumbag.

Um, if you stay in a hostel and don't work or donate, you *ARE* a scumbag.

Alaskanhkr23
06-16-2009, 13:45
i can understand donating but not working,im there to hike not be there slave. They can call me whatever they want for not working, ill throw them a twenty and thats it.

STEVEM
06-16-2009, 13:47
I just got off the trail and I had a great time. I'm hoping to work during the summer and go back out and catch hikers in the fall. On another note: I wanted to make sure everyone is aware that some hostels think that when they put the words "free" AND "donations accepted" into all the guidebooks and on their signs that this means "every single person needs to work to donate money to stay here, or we are telling you we are openly going to you to the hikers behind you".

This is seriously ****ed up and I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see one hostel owner do it more than once. I'm not going to name names, but hopefully the right people catch wind of this and straighten the **** up... Just be careful guys!

I'm not totally sure what your trying to say, but in general I think its a good idea to pay at least whats fair and give just a little more than your fair share.

You're too young to expect a free ride.

ShakeyLeggs
06-16-2009, 13:48
Donate yes I will and have donated to a hostile. I always put more in the kitty than requested too.

I will work there as well. But up to a point if I did not agree to a work for stay. I will make sure the facilities I use (i.e. washer, dryer, sink, shower...) are cleaner than when i started using them. Also if the owner asks for some assistance I will gladly assist them in a task. But that is the limit of my working. I am there the relax and recharge my batteries for the next leg of my trip.

Alaskanhkr23
06-16-2009, 13:49
I do believe in donating,but im not going to work. I don't care if i'm young ,im not working, like i said i'll throw them a twenty or more,but not working.

kanga
06-16-2009, 14:03
ok people. i tried, i really did.


it's hostel, not hostile.

hostile means you're angry and aggressive.




(just call me camo..)

Alligator
06-16-2009, 14:15
I'm sensing a lot of hostelity in this thead.

Disney
06-16-2009, 14:19
You don't think some of these folks sound angry and aggressive?

And for the record, a hostel is not hostile to hikers just because they want people to help out. These things are expensive to run, take a huge amount of work, and are often done as a labor of love. When it says free/donations accepted, you can bet that this is done as a labor of love, and is costing the owner alot of time and money to put a cheap roof over your head. So kick in money or help out with the work. If you're not willing to do either, then drag your lazy ass to a hotel. These are not rights or entitlements, they are a privilege.

Alligator
06-16-2009, 14:21
Should it be inhostelitipal:D?

Lone Wolf
06-16-2009, 14:23
i've never seen a hostel where a sign was posted that said "FREE"

kanga
06-16-2009, 14:24
Should it be inhostelitipal:D?

stop! i can't take it! lol!

MOWGLI
06-16-2009, 14:28
If a hostel owner operates on a "donations accepted" basis, and complain when people don't donate, the fault lies with the owner. Not the hiker. They aren't doing the trail any favors either by enabling people to slide. Fees should be mandatory. Or the hostel owners should quit their whining and just close their doors.

Alligator
06-16-2009, 14:32
Mom corrected me of that free maid service thing when I was about six:eek:. No amount of love is going to have a hostel owner clean up after 10 hikers a day.

MOWGLI
06-16-2009, 14:35
Mom corrected me of that free maid service thing when I was about six:eek:. No amount of love is going to have a hostel owner clean up after 10 hikers a day.

I would not own a hostel - even if it paid 6 figures. No thank you very much! Takes a special breed. I haven't the patience.

kanga
06-16-2009, 14:35
well, the thing is you should just pick up after yourself. that plus if somebody is doing something good for you, what kind of jackass do you have to be to not do something good back for them? lazy, entitled people really do suck. i mean, like, alot.

jersey joe
06-16-2009, 14:41
I think the original poster does have a bit of a point here. If a hostel does in fact advertise as "free" and "donations accepted" then they can't complain if someone does stay for free and does not donate money. If the hostel owner expects donation or work for stay, then advertise that and then you have a gripe when someone doesn't donate or work for stay.

There are plenty of people, young folks especially, that don't have the funds and a free place to stay is a great thing. The ones with more money will hopefully make up for them by donating extra.

Of course, in this case, I do not know if the original poster actually acted like a "scumbag" or JUST didn't make a donation. Every story has two sides.

bigmac_in
06-16-2009, 14:47
Hostel's sorry laptop sucks

Probably a loose nut behind the keyboard.

kanga
06-16-2009, 14:50
Probably a loose nut behind the keyboard.
omg, i just snorted!

bigmac_in
06-16-2009, 14:51
omg, i just snorted!


Then you agree?

Alligator
06-16-2009, 14:52
Correct or add to this if I'm off, but isn't it mostly true that hostels "suggest" donations to avoid various regulations? Taxes, income, zoning etc. Ultimately they are looking to make an income and/or provide a service, perhaps out of kindness. I know there are varieties and combinations of those reasons. I'd simply say give it some sincere consideration before you stiff the donation box and skip the chores. Even if they are in it for profit, you the hiker are still benefitting from the cheaper rates. I'd guess offhand that the regulated price is the cheapest hotel in town with maid service.

MOWGLI
06-16-2009, 14:58
Correct or add to this if I'm off, but isn't it mostly true that hostels "suggest" donations to avoid various regulations? Taxes, income, zoning etc. Ultimately they are looking to make an income and/or provide a service, perhaps out of kindness. I know there are varieties and combinations of those reasons. I'd simply say give it some sincere consideration before you stiff the donation box and skip the chores. Even if they are in it for profit, you the hiker are still benefitting from the cheaper rates. I'd guess offhand that the regulated price is the cheapest hotel in town with maid service.

Hikers shouldn't stiff donation boxes. But lets face it. Lots of hikers are freeloaders. That's why hostel owners should set a fixed price, or shut their pie holes when they get stiffed. Because they will. Again & again.

TD55
06-16-2009, 15:02
This thread gives a good snap shot into what makes the AT a great place and what makes it suck. On the one hand you have business owners who are trying to give folks who need it, a break by offering a room and services in exchange for some labor. None of these hostel owners really need to hire a hiker for help. They would prefer cash. But, like the AT community of old, everyone tries to take care of each other and do the right thing. Good people doing good things for one another.
On the otherhand, we have in our society, now, this selfish, self important, everyone owes me whatever I want attitude that has made it into the AT community. I can not believe people would think it is OK to whine and complain llike lazy jerks on a public forum about being asked to do some minor work or pay a few dollars to stay somewhere and get some services. I would be willing to bet they are the same people who leave litter behind on the trail and in the firepits, piss off thel locals when they visit towns and cause most of the negative problems. These people are invasive species and should be treated as such.

Lone Wolf
06-16-2009, 15:03
There are plenty of people, young folks especially, that don't have the funds and a free place to stay is a great thing. The ones with more money will hopefully make up for them by donating extra.



that's BS right there. then the "young folks" should stay in the friggin woods if they ain't got no funds. the ones that always plead poverty are the ones always eatin' pizza and drinkin' beer in towns. they can afford a few bucks in a hiker box

kanga
06-16-2009, 15:04
Then you agree?

yes. yes, i do.

kanga
06-16-2009, 15:04
This thread gives a good snap shot into what makes the AT a great place and what makes it suck. On the one hand you have business owners who are trying to give folks who need it, a break by offering a room and services in exchange for some labor. None of these hostel owners really need to hire a hiker for help. They would prefer cash. But, like the AT community of old, everyone tries to take care of each other and do the right thing. Good people doing good things for one another.
On the otherhand, we have in our society, now, this selfish, self important, everyone owes me whatever I want attitude that has made it into the AT community. I can not believe people would think it is OK to whine and complain llike lazy jerks on a public forum about being asked to do some minor work or pay a few dollars to stay somewhere and get some services. I would be willing to bet they are the same people who leave litter behind on the trail and in the firepits, piss off thel locals when they visit towns and cause most of the negative problems. These people are invasive species and should be treated as such.


ooh, and a well-deserved bitchslap from td55. nice!

kanga
06-16-2009, 15:05
that's BS right there. then the "young folks" should stay in the friggin woods if they ain't got no funds. the ones that always plead poverty are the ones always eatin' pizza and drinkin' beer in towns. they can afford a few bucks in a hiker box

eggsactly!

Alligator
06-16-2009, 15:07
Hikers shouldn't stiff donation boxes. But lets face it. Lots of hikers are freeloaders. That's why hostel owners should set a fixed price, or shut their pie holes when they get stiffed. Because they will. Again & again.I might agree with that in some cases, like if the hostel is really for profit the owner should just eat it. I'd also factor in whatever the regs might be, there could be extenuating circumstances like overreaching town ordinances or something.

jersey joe
06-16-2009, 15:07
that's BS right there. then the "young folks" should stay in the friggin woods if they ain't got no funds. the ones that always plead poverty are the ones always eatin' pizza and drinkin' beer in towns. they can afford a few bucks in a hiker box
BS? If the hostel didn't advertise as "FREE" then maybe these hikers WOULD stay in the "friggin woods".

Lone Wolf
06-16-2009, 15:10
BS? If the hostel didn't advertise as "FREE" then maybe these hikers WOULD stay in the "friggin woods".
there are no FREE hostels on the AT

jersey joe
06-16-2009, 15:12
there are no FREE hostels on the AT
Very possible. I was commenting on the original poster saying they were advertised as free. Note that I said "IF" they advertise as free...

Reid
06-16-2009, 15:34
I just got off the trail and I had a great time. I'm hoping to work during the summer and go back out and catch hikers in the fall. On another note: I wanted to make sure everyone is aware that some hostels think that when they put the words "free" AND "donations accepted" into all the guidebooks and on their signs that this means "every single person needs to work to donate money to stay here, or we are telling you we are openly going to you to the hikers behind you".

This is seriously ****ed up and I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see one hostel owner do it more than once. I'm not going to name names, but hopefully the right people catch wind of this and straighten the **** up... Just be careful guys!

I don't much like your attitude.

TD55
06-16-2009, 15:37
It's really a question of character. Just because something is made available to those in need doesn't mean an automatic freebie for anyone that "wants" it. If you are a bum, just deal with it and quit trying to make excuses for it. There is only a limited amount of good will and free stuff to go around. When to many bums collect, the folks who really do need the help miss out. I have no sympathy this week for lazy 20 something year olds who think they deserve something they havn't earned. My family in the form of a 20 year old Marine landed in Afganistan on Saturday. He did not complain.

appalachianjosh
06-16-2009, 15:41
I'm sensing a lot of hostelity in this thead.

I don't know about you guys, but I laughed my ass off at this :)

Scrapes
06-16-2009, 15:46
I've done some hiking, by no means am I a thru hiker, where has this "celebrity" attitude come from that some thru hikers have bestowed upon themselves? You aren't entitled to anything in this life, nothings free.

Pay the hostel owners, join the ATC, and pay for this site too. I'm derelict in that, checks in the mail!!!

kanga
06-16-2009, 15:57
It's really a question of character. Just because something is made available to those in need doesn't mean an automatic freebie for anyone that "wants" it. If you are a bum, just deal with it and quit trying to make excuses for it. There is only a limited amount of good will and free stuff to go around. When to many bums collect, the folks who really do need the help miss out. I have no sympathy this week for lazy 20 something year olds who think they deserve something they havn't earned. My family in the form of a 20 year old Marine landed in Afganistan on Saturday. He did not complain.


sorry, i think it needed to be said again but louder for the lazy entitled people. just to make sure they saw it...

The Mechanical Man
06-16-2009, 16:21
How much should I charge, for a free cold shower? :-?

Heater
06-16-2009, 16:23
How much should I charge, for a free cold shower? :-?

Two Chickens.

TD55
06-16-2009, 16:32
Two Chickens.
Well, now that seems a little high for a cold shower. Even a skimpy three day old Food Lion chicken cost about $4.00 or $5.00. I would say a cold shower was worth more like a half dozen large eggs. Maybe a full dozen if you had a hundred feet of black hose up on the roof on a sunny day.

chomp
06-16-2009, 16:33
If a hostel owner operates on a "donations accepted" basis, and complain when people don't donate, the fault lies with the owner. Not the hiker. They aren't doing the trail any favors either by enabling people to slide. Fees should be mandatory. Or the hostel owners should quit their whining and just close their doors.

Any hostel that operates on a "donation" basis is doing so to avoid registering as a hotel. Most of the hostel owners out there are looking to make a couple of bucks, but none of them are getting rich. In fact, the profit margin is so low, that if these places were to register as a business and charge taxes, etc... The price would be much higher and then less people could afford to stay there.

The "donation" word is like code. They don't require you to pay, but make no mistake - you are being a dirtbag if you don't pay. If you don't like the fact that these places are exploiting a loophole in the law, fine - don't stay there. But don't go into somebody's home, use their hot water, electricity, heat, etc.. and think that its perfectly OK to not leave a dime because they used the word "donation".

And Lone Wolf is right - there isn't a "free" hostel on the trail.

generoll
06-16-2009, 16:49
which hostel was listed as free? I'm guessing that the "donation" loophole is more a case of the governing authority looking the other way then it is a real true loophole. Not sure I'd like to test that out, but I suspect that if the authorities wanted to go to the trouble they could either shut you down or make you pay up. Maybe Miss Janet could tell us a bit about that.

Kanati
06-16-2009, 16:53
that's BS right there. then the "young folks" should stay in the friggin woods if they ain't got no funds. the ones that always plead poverty are the ones always eatin' pizza and drinkin' beer in towns. they can afford a few bucks in a hiker box

Nicely said !!!!!!

vonfrick
06-16-2009, 16:57
that's BS right there. then the "young folks" should stay in the friggin woods if they ain't got no funds. the ones that always plead poverty are the ones always eatin' pizza and drinkin' beer in towns. they can afford a few bucks in a hiker box

yep. same kids who have iphones and wear abercrombie and fitch crap in my class but cry poor when they show up to an exam without a $10 calculator. damn kids!!:rolleyes:

skinewmexico
06-16-2009, 17:11
Ah yes, the "entitled" generation. Someone else is supposed to work and pay to insure they get the fun they deserve. I've got no use for someone who would show up and neither work nor pay. I've got a lot of respect for someone who shows up, admits they're short of cash, and asks what they can do to help as a payment. Life isn't free, or fair.

sylvia_claire
06-16-2009, 17:13
you create your own problem If you don't put a minimum donation level.

5 or 10 dollars forked over beforehand and viola no problem

The Mechanical Man
06-16-2009, 17:17
I weeded the garden last night here at the Blue Mountain Dome, but 2 cords of wood still need stacking, and the grass is getting pretty long and needs cutting, anyone want to do work for stay?

You can have a free cold shower. :D

DAJA
06-16-2009, 17:30
Ah yes, the "entitled" generation. Someone else is supposed to work and pay to insure they get the fun they deserve. I've got no use for someone who would show up and neither work nor pay. I've got a lot of respect for someone who shows up, admits they're short of cash, and asks what they can do to help as a payment. Life isn't free, or fair.

I don't want to work and I don't want to pay my way.... I'm the product of the "It's my right" generation...

Yes, it didn't matter that there was all kinds of science available indicating that their behavior was going to have long term consiquences, but if they didn't take advantage someone else would, so why not! Creater's of the political correctness, because we can't have losers, failure or hurt feelings, everyone is equal except when it's my turn to cash in... Yup, you older folks sure can pat yourselves on the back for a job well done! Ethic's and morals be damned, you were right because it was your right....

"Entitled" generation my ass.... Now please hang up and try your call again...

MOWGLI
06-16-2009, 17:40
I don't want to work and I don't want to pay my way.... I'm the product of the "It's my right" generation...

Yes, it didn't matter that there was all kinds of science available indicating that their behavior was going to have long term consiquences, but if they didn't take advantage someone else would, so why not! Creater's of the political correctness, because we can't have losers, failure or hurt feelings, everyone is equal except when it's my turn to cash in... Yup, you older folks sure can pat yourselves on the back for a job well done! Ethic's and morals be damned, you were right because it was your right....

"Entitled" generation my ass.... Now please hang up and try your call again...

Seems to be getting worse. Not better. That was kinda my point, although I wasn't explicit. The freeloading will continue. Enabled by the way the hostel owners practice, and by the way people fail to parent these days. I have little sympathy for hostel owners who permit this to happen.

kanga
06-16-2009, 17:44
Two Chickens.
and a fried egg

TD55
06-16-2009, 17:53
I don't want to work and I don't want to pay my way.... I'm the product of the "It's my right" generation...

Yes, it didn't matter that there was all kinds of science available indicating that their behavior was going to have long term consiquences, but if they didn't take advantage someone else would, so why not! Creater's of the political correctness, because we can't have losers, failure or hurt feelings, everyone is equal except when it's my turn to cash in... Yup, you older folks sure can pat yourselves on the back for a job well done! Ethic's and morals be damned, you were right because it was your right....

"Entitled" generation my ass.... Now please hang up and try your call again...
What?.....Ka?

Jester2000
06-16-2009, 17:56
. . .There are plenty of people, young folks especially, that don't have the funds and a free place to stay is a great thing. The ones with more money will hopefully make up for them by donating extra. . .

One might suggest that those young folks earn a little more money before jumping on the trail and expecting others to subsidize their hikes. And as far as free places to stay, there's almost always a free one right outside of town, in their tents.

As for Hostels that advertise themselves as "free," there are two south of Harpers Ferry that I know of where the word is used in the Thru-hikers Handbook (2009). One is Woods Hole just south of Pearisburg. They are listed as "free, donations accepted." The other is the Blackburn A.T. Center south of Harpers Ferry. Blackburn is listed as "open to hikers free of charge, donations are appreciated."

I suppose it could be said that the reverse is also true -- not giving a donation is not appreciated.

Belew
06-16-2009, 17:57
Two Chickens.

IS that 2 live chickens or 2 dead chickens? I'd expect hot water and a towel for even 1 live chicken.

El Toro '94
06-16-2009, 17:59
I feel bad cuz I stayed there 2 nites and didn't donate, + ate more than my share of ice cream bars. Anyone know how to get hold of the guy to make things right? It was in PA, 3 miles N of Rausch gap. Not listed on any modern guides that I see. Would gladly try to make up for my a&*holery the first time thru.

Heater
06-16-2009, 18:19
IS that 2 live chickens or 2 dead chickens? I'd expect hot water and a towel for even 1 live chicken.

I was thinkin' live.

But, It doesn't really matter. Nobody is gonna pay for a cold shower.

TD55
06-16-2009, 18:20
I feel bad cuz I stayed there 2 nites and didn't donate, + ate more than my share of ice cream bars. Anyone know how to get hold of the guy to make things right? It was in PA, 3 miles N of Rausch gap. Not listed on any modern guides that I see. Would gladly try to make up for my a&*holery the first time thru.
Stuff happans. Nobody is perfect. You can make it up down the trail by giving back what you figure is fair. What goes around comes around.

DapperD
06-16-2009, 19:10
I just got off the trail and I had a great time. I'm hoping to work during the summer and go back out and catch hikers in the fall. On another note: I wanted to make sure everyone is aware that some hostels think that when they put the words "free" AND "donations accepted" into all the guidebooks and on their signs that this means "every single person needs to work to donate money to stay here, or we are telling you we are openly going to you to the hikers behind you".

This is seriously ****ed up and I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see one hostel owner do it more than once. I'm not going to name names, but hopefully the right people catch wind of this and straighten the **** up... Just be careful guys!You must of missed the asterisk after the word "free", and the small print at the bottem:D.

ki0eh
06-16-2009, 19:17
Nobody is gonna pay for a cold shower.

How about paying for others to get one???

snowhoe
06-16-2009, 19:18
Where is Rockhound? This is his kinda thread.

kayak karl
06-16-2009, 19:22
Where is Rockhound? This is his kinda thread.
didnt he go hiking?

bigmac_in
06-16-2009, 20:29
didnt he go hiking?


Surely not . . .

Tinker
06-16-2009, 21:40
I'm not totally sure what your trying to say, but in general I think its a good idea to pay at least whats fair and give just a little more than your fair share.

You're too young to expect a free ride.

Er, generally the ones who expect the free ride ARE the young. If someone reaches my age and STILL expects it, I feel very, very sorry for that person.

Tin Man
06-16-2009, 21:43
ok people. i tried, i really did.


it's hostel, not hostile.

hostile means you're angry and aggressive.




(just call me camo..)


i used to have a friend named camo. i heard he was eaten (or was that beaten?) by a penguin

Lone Wolf
06-16-2009, 21:44
Er, generally the ones who expect the free ride ARE the young. If someone reaches my age and STILL expects it, I feel very, very sorry for that person.
99% of the Ahole free loadin' rule breakers at "The Place" are 20 something males

Tinker
06-16-2009, 21:45
Hostel's sorry laptop sucks

Sorry,
it's hostels.
There's no apostrophy necessary to make most words plural. The only exception I can think of is acronyms, such as BMW's. I'm not sure that's correct either, but I've seen way too many "professionally" done signs advertising "hamburger's and pizza's" - both incorrect.

DAJA
06-16-2009, 21:48
99% of the Ahole free loadin' rule breakers at "The Place" are 20 something males


Given your attitude these days, I bet you where a real sweetheart at 20!:rolleyes:

Tinker
06-16-2009, 21:49
99% of the Ahole free loadin' rule breakers at "The Place" are 20 something males
Yeah, I hate being right sometimes. I was lucky to make it out of my twenties. Yeah, I admit it, I was one of those who couldn't figure out that SOMEONE had to pay for every single thing costing money. I figured that I'd just let people be nice to me. I was a leech and completely oblivious to it.

Tinker
06-16-2009, 21:53
Given your attitude these days, I bet you where a real sweetheart at 20!:rolleyes:
Nothing wrong with his attitude - makes those of us who think the way he does wish we had the :):)s to tell it the way we see it.

Tin Man
06-16-2009, 21:55
does the chicken and egg come with bacon?


don't got no bacon? then stay in the woods. got bacon, then grease the pan with a nice tip. wt*f people thinkin' trail is one big handout and you know why? i ran into some nobo's last week and i said, cool, when i thru, i am going sobo, they said but then you would miss all the magic... they expect a free ride and too many give it to them, no wonder they think 'donations accepted' is optional... the magic folks and feed people is half the problem right there. pissin' and moaners all

Lone Wolf
06-16-2009, 21:59
Given your attitude these days, I bet you where a real sweetheart at 20!:rolleyes:

sure kid. whatever

Lyle
06-16-2009, 22:10
As far back as I can remember, most all hostels I've stayed at (Both American Youth and others) have all charged a fee, plus assigned chores in return for your stay.

I expect to be requested to pitch in if I stay at a Hostel. If I'm not asked, I try to make a point to ask the person in charge if there are any chores to do. I always thought that was part of the Hostel experience.

Dr O
06-16-2009, 22:12
http://angryflower.com/aposter3.jpg

Tin Man
06-16-2009, 22:13
sure kid. whatever

they's all pissin' and moaners... almost feel bad for the hostels expecting more from people... day's gone by that people came full of knowledge and appreciation for others' efforts... shame really, but gone by unfortunately

Tin Man
06-16-2009, 22:14
As far back as I can remember, most all hostels I've stayed at (Both American Youth and others) have all charged a fee, plus assigned chores in return for your stay.

I expect to be requested to pitch in if I stay at a Hostel. If I'm not asked, I try to make a point to ask the person in charge if there are any chores to do. I always thought that was part of the Hostel experience.

days gone by. new breed of entitled kids takin' over. sad

TD55
06-16-2009, 22:17
I will not give up the culture I was raised in. You take care of yourself and your family and friends and to do less is shameful. We viewed men who could not do for themselves and needed to bum and beg and steal to survive as, well, not really men. Exceptions have always been made for those whose misfurtune is not of thier own doing, and these could always count on family and friends for help. That there are individuals today who don't feel shame at living as shallow little shadows, failures at life and loosers as men is sad, but I don't really give a crap as long as they don't get in my way. Just sayin....

Tinker
06-16-2009, 22:22
http://angryflower.com/aposter3.jpg

Very nice. Couldn't have said it better! :)

Nearly Normal
06-16-2009, 22:23
99% of the Ahole free loadin' rule breakers at "The Place" are 20 something males

We use to call them bums and run them out of town or give them a job picking up litter, sling blading the road side, cleaning out ditches.
Maybe the sheriff there could find them a little work.
They usually move on pretty quick afterward.

DAJA
06-16-2009, 22:37
I will not give up the culture I was raised in. You take care of yourself and your family and friends and to do less is shameful. We viewed men who could not do for themselves and needed to bum and beg and steal to survive as, well, not really men. Exceptions have always been made for those whose misfurtune is not of thier own doing, and these could always count on family and friends for help. That there are individuals today who don't feel shame at living as shallow little shadows, failures at life and loosers as men is sad, but I don't really give a crap as long as they don't get in my way. Just sayin....


LOL.... I can kinda see your point... Many "kids" like me where left to raise ourselves, because all you old folk where to busy finding ways to market and profit off of us, to parent.... Kinda ironic that as you stuffed your pockets finding very creative ways to sell us junk, making us weak and soft relying on all your fabulous creations, that you now sit back and point your finger of disgust back at us, your very own creation...

The only thing more lame than blaming "kids these days" for the reality of our world, is listening to a bunch a stiff old men talk about the good old days....

Now out of the way old fellas, there is an army of young folk just chomping at the bit to fix all your messes.... No need to say thanks, it's kinda necassary for our future.... Hmmm guess in the good old days there was no future...

Dr O
06-16-2009, 22:49
The only thing more lame than blaming "kids these days" for the reality of our world, is listening to a bunch a stiff old men talk about the good old days....

Of course the old days were good, they were financed by the future.

DAJA
06-16-2009, 22:51
Of course the old days were good, they were financed by the future.

No kidding!:-?:D

Tin Man
06-16-2009, 22:53
LOL.... I can kinda see your point... Many "kids" like me where left to raise ourselves, because all you old folk where to busy finding ways to market and profit off of us, to parent.... Kinda ironic that as you stuffed your pockets finding very creative ways to sell us junk, making us weak and soft relying on all your fabulous creations, that you now sit back and point your finger of disgust back at us, your very own creation...

The only thing more lame than blaming "kids these days" for the reality of our world, is listening to a bunch a stiff old men talk about the good old days....

Now out of the way old fellas, there is an army of young folk just chomping at the bit to fix all your messes.... No need to say thanks, it's kinda necassary for our future.... Hmmm guess in the good old days there was no future...


actually there are plenty of young people who get it. don't worry kid, you too will learn.... unfortunately, your lesson will undoubtably be harder than most... best of luck

DAJA
06-16-2009, 22:59
Well fortunately, my folks where forward thinking and prepared me well.... I'd be willing to wager that i'm in a better position than most, old or young....

But thanks for your concern....

Wrangler88
06-16-2009, 23:07
I've been reading on this thread all day ...


I think it's rediculous to stereotype and say that all young people are cheap, freeloading, bums. I agree, there are a lot of younger people that expect things. But I'm not one of them. And I'm sure a lot of others don't appreciate anyone saying they are.

I understand why the original poster has a gripe. And I understand why owners lable their rates as 'donations'. Everyone SHOULD donate. But if a couple don't, that's the price you pay for avoiding taxes the way owners do. I think its a fair trade.

I'll pay for all of my stays. Leave the 'suggested donation'. But owners shouldn't have a gripe about a few people skipping out on their 'donations'. They're apparently skipping out on taxes. Like I said, seems like a pretty good trade out.

Maybe I'm wrong. In which case, all you the older, wiser, much harder working members can correct me.

Tin Man
06-16-2009, 23:21
I've been reading on this thread all day ...


I think it's rediculous to stereotype and say that all young people are cheap, freeloading, bums. I agree, there are a lot of younger people that expect things. But I'm not one of them. And I'm sure a lot of others don't appreciate anyone saying they are.

I understand why the original poster has a gripe. And I understand why owners lable their rates as 'donations'. Everyone SHOULD donate. But if a couple don't, that's the price you pay for avoiding taxes the way owners do. I think its a fair trade.

I'll pay for all of my stays. Leave the 'suggested donation'. But owners shouldn't have a gripe about a few people skipping out on their 'donations'. They're apparently skipping out on taxes. Like I said, seems like a pretty good trade out.

Maybe I'm wrong. In which case, all you the older, wiser, much harder working members can correct me.

i'm sure the hostels are not expecting everyone will 'donate', but i'm also sure more are not paying than used to and they are using their funds to party instead. that is the whole point here. it ain't young versus old, it's entitled vs. respectful. clear on your stance, not so sure about others.

Tin Man
06-16-2009, 23:22
Well fortunately, my folks where forward thinking and prepared me well.... I'd be willing to wager that i'm in a better position than most, old or young....

But thanks for your concern....

i ain't concerned, just would be nice if you showed some :)

The Mechanical Man
06-16-2009, 23:56
Well fortunately, my folks where forward thinking and prepared me well.... I'd be willing to wager that i'm in a better position than most, old or young....

But thanks for your concern....


Sounds to me like you are just talking about money, so you still don't get it.

You could be a better person, if you had a hostel at YOUR home.

TD55
06-17-2009, 00:19
Well fortunately, my folks where forward thinking and prepared me well.... I'd be willing to wager that i'm in a better position than most, old or young....

But thanks for your concern....
Really? At 33 years old you are defending yourself and worth as a human being and a man by sounding like an immature 18 year old, blaming your shortfalls on strangers who never had anything to do with your upbringing. All this because you have a need to believe that being a bum, thief, looser, begger, whatever is not the fault of the person in question, but rather, some theoretical crap put together inside your head. There are plenty of winners from your generation and the one marching up behind you. You just ain't one of them.

Frosty
06-17-2009, 00:32
Many "kids" like me where left to raise ourselves, because all you old folk where to busy finding ways to market and profit off of usWhat are you babbling about?

Frosty
06-17-2009, 00:35
I've been reading on this thread all day ...


I think it's rediculous to stereotype and say that all young people are cheap, freeloading, bums. I don't think anyone said that. For me, I've found young hikers to be pleasant and polite folks in general. What was said was that most of the free-loaders and rule-breakers at The Place were young males.

Bearpaw
06-17-2009, 01:14
LOL.... I can kinda see your point... Many "kids" like me where left to raise ourselves, because all you old folk where to busy finding ways to market and profit off of us, to parent.... Kinda ironic that as you stuffed your pockets finding very creative ways to sell us junk, making us weak and soft relying on all your fabulous creations, that you now sit back and point your finger of disgust back at us, your very own creation...

Please seek therapy.

Heater
06-17-2009, 02:51
Sorry,
it's hostels.
There's no apostrophy necessary to make most words plural. The only exception I can think of is acronyms, such as BMW's. I'm not sure that's correct either, but I've seen way too many "professionally" done signs advertising "hamburger's and pizza's" - both incorrect.

Actually I think he is right. :eek:
It is a possessive.
The hostel's laptop. Tinker's laptop.

zoidfu
06-17-2009, 04:29
Hilarious.

Hostels that are jumping head first through loopholes in order to get out of paying the necessary taxes and getting the necessary licensing are whining about getting it right back in their face?

That's what happens when you take shortcuts while other legitimate businesses shell out the cash to run an operation.

Now who's really feeling "entitled" here?

rickb
06-17-2009, 05:39
I'll pay for all of my stays. Leave the 'suggested donation'. But owners shouldn't have a gripe about a few people skipping out on their 'donations'. They're apparently skipping out on taxes. Like I said, seems like a pretty good trade out.

I don't think its fair to suggest that requesting donations rather than payment is to skip out on taxes.

Even if a property is 100% paid for, there are few if any "donation" hostels that could not easily/legally show a loss on their operation. Keep in mind that its not all about daily cash flow-- you also have property taxes, depreciation and such.

They might be simplifying things a bit, but I don't think any are "skipping out" on taxes.

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 05:54
I don't think its fair to suggest that requesting donations rather than payment is to skip out on taxes.

Even if a property is 100% paid for, there are few if any "donation" hostels that could not easily/legally show a loss on their operation. Keep in mind that its not all about daily cash flow-- you also have property taxes, depreciation and such.

They might be simplifying things a bit, but I don't think any are "skipping out" on taxes.

actually, the irs' unofficial policy is to look the other way on some of the cash collected by very small businesses. they are smart enough to know that otherwise, many would simply cease to exist, which would create many other social and economic problems.

Dr O
06-17-2009, 06:28
actually, the irs' unofficial policy is to look the other way on some of the cash collected by very small businesses. they are smart enough to know that otherwise, many would simply cease to exist, which would create many other social and economic problems.

lol! Yea, the IRS is known for it's concern about it's policies and how they affect society and the economy! :banana

Just ask Joe Louis.

ShakeyLeggs
06-17-2009, 06:33
I don't think that the reason that a hostel asks for a donation over a set price has to do solely with the tax issue. I think it also has to do with avoiding having to comply with many of the regulations that are imposed on a business of this type. If the hostel owner had to comply with the many regulations the cost of running the hostel would be prohibitive. Also the owner would then have to pass these costs onto the user thus negating any cost savings for the user.

stranger
06-17-2009, 06:34
My view is that every single person who stays in a hostel should have to pay for the services they are using. I think work for stay is a load of BS and if you don't have the decency or common sense to earn enough money for your trip prior to leaving, then you need to adjust the length of the trip so you are adequately resourced.

You wouldn't walk into any other business and expect to work for your keep, you would expect to pay, a hostel is no different. I haven't stayed at hostels for years, I can afford motels, and they are 10 times better anyway.

I think every hostel owner should charge $20/night and ask for the money before giving someone a bunk. If you can't afford it, well that's why they make tents. Last year I hiked with this scum bag who didn't pay up at hostels and everyone was looking to say something, no one did, so I had it out with him one night and had to embarrass him in front of 15 other hikers.

Dr O
06-17-2009, 06:34
The whole "kids today" meme is so cliche, has been since about 400 BC and probably before that.

The youth of today love luxury; they have bad manners and contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Youth are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up food at the table, and tyrannize their teachers. (Attributed to Socrates in Plato’s “The Republic.”)

I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words… When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint (Hesiod, 8th century BC).

Maybe things are the same as they ever were.

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 06:37
lol! Yea, the IRS is known for it's concern about it's policies and how they affect society and the economy! :banana

Just ask Joe Louis.

not saying its systematic and joe louis is bad example

Marta
06-17-2009, 06:59
Point of logic: To say that "most of the people who cause problems at The Place at 20-ish males," is not the same as saying "if a 20-ish male steps into The Place he will cause problems."

I don't know about the rest of you, but I did a few things in my youth that I cringe to think of now. Growing up takes a while.

The first principle of being a grown up is to take responsibility for yourself. Don't blame other people for your actions, and that includes not blaming your parents, your friends, your S.O., or "the System."

That said, donations are mostly a scheme for avoiding taxes and regulations. Period. Whatever the motive, that's why it's done. So it provides me a certain amount of amusement that someone who is evading regulations and taxes gets sore at someone who evades paying for services rendered.

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 07:10
Point of logic: To say that "most of the people who cause problems at The Place at 20-ish males," is not the same as saying "if a 20-ish male steps into The Place he will cause problems."

I don't know about the rest of you, but I did a few things in my youth that I cringe to think of now. Growing up takes a while.

The first principle of being a grown up is to take responsibility for yourself. Don't blame other people for your actions, and that includes not blaming your parents, your friends, your S.O., or "the System."

That said, donations are mostly a scheme for avoiding taxes and regulations. Period. Whatever the motive, that's why it's done. So it provides me a certain amount of amusement that someone who is evading regulations and taxes gets sore at someone who evades paying for services rendered.

yeah, but the flip side if they charged the real cost, including the cost to meet regulatory requirements and pay taxes, very few would stay

DAJA
06-17-2009, 08:47
Sounds to me like you are just talking about money, so you still don't get it.

You could be a better person, if you had a hostel at YOUR home.

I never said anything about money... Money is not my motivation or focus... In fact my entire life has been an effort to reduce my need for money to the point that I can now live a very healthy and happy life on less than a $1000.00/month... This includes, a beautiful new enviro friendly home (morgage free), that produces a good part of it's own energy, a property that provides me with a good portion of my own food, and a woodlot for warmth... Recently i've aquired a neighboring lot that will soon grow sunflower's to be harvested so I can produce my own biodiesel to power my VW and Kabota... All this sits surrounded in the appalachian range and the Bay of Fundy... It's a real outdoor paradise...

The reality is that my folks raised me to work hard and find solutions.... They had the forsight to see the destruction their peers where inflicting on our planet. So they worked hard to expand their skills and abilities so that they could pass that on to my brother and I... They didn't want us to get sucked into the trappings of consumer society and wanted us to grow up knowing the difference between real happyness and the mundane routine of their peers...

My goal now is to continue on the path that they laid for me, and to expand upon it... Come July 24 no more 9-5, no more cubical... I'll dedicate my time to homesteading and and focusing my attention on things that will have a possitive influence on my community and the world as a whole...

Unlike you folks in the generations before me, I'm not simply going to blindly participate and make excuses for a failing system... I'm going to find solutions and find my own way... I surely won't save the world, but I can significantly reduce my footprint... :D

Money is not a motivator it is a prison....

generoll
06-17-2009, 08:51
yeah, but the flip side if they charged the real cost, including the cost to meet regulatory requirements and pay taxes, very few would stay

Which some might call a good thing. Dunno. I'm kind of ambivalent about the whole thing. Shelters suck, Hostels suck. Except when the weather's crappy and I want to stay in one. Then they are a blessing.

Trail Magic is evil and causes an entitlement mentality. Except when I'm really thirsty or just need a break from what I am carrying in my pack. Then they are a useful and blessed part of the AT experience.

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 09:02
Which some might call a good thing. Dunno. I'm kind of ambivalent about the whole thing. Shelters suck, Hostels suck. Except when the weather's crappy and I want to stay in one. Then they are a blessing.

Trail Magic is evil and causes an entitlement mentality. Except when I'm really thirsty or just need a break from what I am carrying in my pack. Then they are a useful and blessed part of the AT experience.

you seem to like it both ways :eek:

foul weather only makes the shelters and hostels fouler than they already are ... just sayin'

jersey joe
06-17-2009, 09:09
One might suggest that those young folks earn a little more money before jumping on the trail and expecting others to subsidize their hikes. And as far as free places to stay, there's almost always a free one right outside of town, in their tents.

As for Hostels that advertise themselves as "free," there are two south of Harpers Ferry that I know of where the word is used in the Thru-hikers Handbook (2009). One is Woods Hole just south of Pearisburg. They are listed as "free, donations accepted." The other is the Blackburn A.T. Center south of Harpers Ferry. Blackburn is listed as "open to hikers free of charge, donations are appreciated."
Jester, I have no issue with encouraging younger people to save more money before jumping on the trail and to give donations whenever possible. My issue is with people getting upset that hikers don't leave donations if a hostel advertises as "FREE". If you expect a donation, then just say "minimum fee required". Don't set one expectation and expect another.

Lone Wolf
06-17-2009, 09:10
Jester, I have no issue with encouraging younger people to save more money before jumping on the trail and to give donations whenever possible. My issue is with people getting upset that hikers don't leave donations if a hostel advertises as "FREE". If you expect a donation, then just say "minimum fee required". Don't set one expectation and expect another.

there are no hostels along the AT that advertise as FREE

jersey joe
06-17-2009, 09:16
What about Jester's comment about Blackburn and Woods Hole above saying FREE in the Thru-Hikers Handbook??? I suppose he could be mistaken...

ShakeyLeggs
06-17-2009, 10:47
there are no FREE hostels on the AT


there are no hostels along the AT that advertise as FREE

http://tinyurl.com/n3nqyu

Blackburn Trail Center—East 0.2 mile via either of two blue-blazed trails. This PATC
facility, (540) 338-9028, is staffed during the summer months by a PATC caretaker.
From the porch, on clear days, you may be able to glimpse the Washington
Monument and National Cathedral in the distance to the east. The center has a
free bunkhouse that sleeps 8 with a wood-burning stove, a picnic pavilion with
table and benches built in 2002 with ALDHA donations in memory of Edward B.
Garvey. Six tentsites and a tent platform are nearby, and a camping area with privy
is 0.1 mile north of the main building on the blue-blazed trail. Water available
year-round from an outside spigot, pay phone located on the porch, and solarheated
shower on front lawn. Donations appreciated. During the summer months,
PATC work and hiking groups are often here.

Straight out of the 2009 Companion.

Lyle
06-17-2009, 11:06
http://tinyurl.com/n3nqyu

Blackburn Trail Center—East 0.2 mile via either of two blue-blazed trails. This PATC
facility, (540) 338-9028, is staffed during the summer months by a PATC caretaker.
From the porch, on clear days, you may be able to glimpse the Washington
Monument and National Cathedral in the distance to the east. The center has a
free bunkhouse that sleeps 8 with a wood-burning stove, a picnic pavilion with
table and benches built in 2002 with ALDHA donations in memory of Edward B.
Garvey. Six tentsites and a tent platform are nearby, and a camping area with privy
is 0.1 mile north of the main building on the blue-blazed trail. Water available
year-round from an outside spigot, pay phone located on the porch, and solarheated
shower on front lawn. Donations appreciated. During the summer months,
PATC work and hiking groups are often here.

Straight out of the 2009 Companion.


Same premise as a restaurant that automatically adds a 15% gratuity to a group's bill so that they can get out of paying a legitimate wage to their employees. Can't say it encourages good service if it's automatically added. A required donation, isn't a donation, but a fee.

That said, I believe we should pay if we avail ourselves of services offered.

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 11:13
Actually, restaurants that charge a fee for large parties pay their wait staff as restaurants that don't.

The "gratuity fee" for large parties is generally charged because large parties take up an inordinate ammount of a server's time; they require more tableside visits and services; this detracts that the time that the server can spend taking care of other patrons, etc. The gratuity fee for larger parties also helps insure that a server isn't stiffed, and this frequently happens with groups, i.e. many folks don't tip much or at all when they eat as a group. Can't tell you how many times I've eaten at a restaurant with a group of hikers who've left little or nothing for the server.

So the addition of a gratuity fee isn't a way for restaurants to avoid paying their staff. It's merely a way to help insure that servers don't get shafted by patrons who don't like to tip.

Chaco Taco
06-17-2009, 11:17
Actually, restaurants that charge a fee for large parties pay their wait staff as restaurants that don't.

The "gratuity fee" for large parties is generally charged because large parties take up an inordinate ammount of a server's time; they require more tableside visits and services; this detracts that the time that the server can spend taking care of other patrons, etc. The gratuity fee for larger parties also helps insure that a server isn't stiffed, and this frequently happens with groups, i.e. many folks don't tip much or at all when they eat as a group. Can't tell you how many times I've eaten at a restaurant with a group of hikers who've left little or nothing for the server.

So the addition of a gratuity fee isn't a way for restaurants to avoid paying their staff. It's merely a way to help insure that servers don't get shafted by patrons who don't like to tip.

And most restaurants do charge 18%- 20% because of that

Lyle
06-17-2009, 11:17
Actually, restaurants that charge a fee for large parties pay their wait staff as restaurants that don't.

The "gratuity fee" for large parties is generally charged because large parties take up an inordinate ammount of a server's time; they require more tableside visits and services; this detracts that the time that the server can spend taking care of other patrons, etc. The gratuity fee for larger parties also helps insure that a server isn't stiffed, and this frequently happens with groups, i.e. many folks don't tip much or at all when they eat as a group. Can't tell you how many times I've eaten at a restaurant with a group of hikers who've left little or nothing for the server.

So the addition of a gratuity fee isn't a way for restaurants to avoid paying their staff. It's merely a way to help insure that servers don't get shafted by patrons who don't like to tip.

No matter what their justification, a gratuity that is not optional, is not a gratuity. Pure and simple. Also, gratuities ARE a way of allowing the business to avoid paying an honest wage, that is why they have reduced minimum wages. Keeps the restaurant from having to pay the salery, the payroll taxes, and reduces their unemplyment contributions. It is a scam that has become ingrained.

Chaco Taco
06-17-2009, 11:18
WHat really stinks is the people that come in late, drink off of everyones booze, bums smokes, then jets out in the am without cleaning up after themselves and not leaving a dime.

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 11:23
Semantically speaking, Lyle is right. Restaurants would probably do better to call this a "service fee" rather than a "gratuity fee". But whatever it's called, I think they're justified in charging it.

JAK
06-17-2009, 11:33
Any hostel that operates on a "donation" basis is doing so to avoid registering as a hotel. Most of the hostel owners out there are looking to make a couple of bucks, but none of them are getting rich. In fact, the profit margin is so low, that if these places were to register as a business and charge taxes, etc... The price would be much higher and then less people could afford to stay there.

The "donation" word is like code. They don't require you to pay, but make no mistake - you are being a dirtbag if you don't pay. If you don't like the fact that these places are exploiting a loophole in the law, fine - don't stay there. But don't go into somebody's home, use their hot water, electricity, heat, etc.. and think that its perfectly OK to not leave a dime because they used the word "donation".

And Lone Wolf is right - there isn't a "free" hostel on the trail.
Seems like a double standard of ethics here.

Why is it ok for scumbag hostel owners to exploit a loophole and not scumbag hikers?

Sounds like a match made in heaven.

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 11:36
Geez, JAK, so you consider someone like Bob Peoples, who doesn't have a set fee, but who happily accepts donations from his guests, to be a scumbag?

Do yourself a favor......keep comments like that to the Internet, as I assure you you won't much care for the outcome if you were to ever talk like that in public.

Honestly, some people need to think a bit before they post.

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 11:37
Seems like a double standard of ethics here.

Why is it ok for scumbag hostel owners to exploit a loophole and not scumbag hikers?

Sounds like a match made in heaven.

get a clue already...

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/funny-pictures-three-cats-bed.jpg

JAK
06-17-2009, 11:44
This thread is totally messed up.

Personal attacks against DAJA are totally messed up, even by Bearpaw, which surprises me.

DAJA isn't a freeloader.

Many long hikers are, and it sounds like many hostel owners on the AT are too.

Most of the posters on this thread are messed up because they support one set of freeloaders and not the other.

Fortunately, DAJA and I have our own set of BS to put up with up here, but it ain't all that different.

JAK
06-17-2009, 11:45
get a clue already...

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/funny-pictures-three-cats-bed.jpgEat me Tin Man.

JAK
06-17-2009, 11:46
This isn't about how lame and irresponsible 20 something kids are.

This is about how to make as money as possible from them and their lame ass parents.

More power to you all, but don't look to me for sympathy.

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 11:48
Eat me Tin Man.

i take it back, you ain't even close to getting a clue

JAK
06-17-2009, 11:53
Geez, JAK, so you consider someone like Bob Peoples, who doesn't have a set fee, but who happily accepts donations from his guests, to be a scumbag?

Do yourself a favor......keep comments like that to the Internet, as I assure you you won't much care for the outcome if you were to ever talk like that in public.

Honestly, some people need to think a bit before they post.Thought we weren't naming names.

I don't know Bob Peoples, and I have nothing against him.
But I know people, and you people seem seriously messed up.

Sounds like a bunch of people trying to make a living, which is fine. But I don't like the way people on this forum trash hikers in support of service providers. You want to play that silly game, I'm not taking sides. Do your own dirty work.

JAK
06-17-2009, 11:54
i take it back, you ain't even close to getting a clueI don't really give a **** what you think.

You guys want to make a living, fine. Don't come crying to me.

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 11:55
JAK:

You said that it sounds to you like "many" of the hostels on the Trail are run by freeloaders.

Just purely out of curiousity, how much of the A.T. have you actually done, and how many A.T. hostels have you actually patronized?

Maybe before telling us how things "sound" to you on the A.T. maybe you should actually spend more time actually on it.

Gosh, what a novel idea.

This just might give your posts some credibility.

JAK
06-17-2009, 11:56
This isn't about how lame and irresponsible 20 something kids are.

This is about how to make as money as possible from them and their lame ass parents.

More power to you all, but don't look to me for sympathy.I think I pretty much pegged it right there. Match made in heaven.

Count me the **** out.

JAK
06-17-2009, 11:58
JAK:

You said that it sounds to you like "many" of the hostels on the Trail are run by freeloaders.

Just purely out of curiousity, how much of the A.T. have you actually done, and how many A.T. hostels have you actually patronized?

Maybe before telling us how things "sound" to you on the A.T. maybe you should actually spend more time actually on it.

Gosh, what a novel idea.

This just might give your posts some credibility.I've seen enough of your posts and people like yours. **** you Jack.

JAK
06-17-2009, 11:59
I don't want to spend any time on the AT if its run by people like you Jack.

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 12:00
Wow, what a mature comment there, JAK.

You were asked a real simple question, i.e. how much of the A.T. have you actually done, and what Trail hostels have you actually visited.

Simple question.

Your response was to curse me out under a pseudonym from hundreds of miles away, JAK.

Classy.

You don't yourself proud, son. Have a nice day.

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 12:01
Doesn't seem to me like you spend much time on the A.T. anyway, son. :D

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 12:02
JAK:

You said that it sounds to you like "many" of the hostels on the Trail are run by freeloaders.

Just purely out of curiousity, how much of the A.T. have you actually done, and how many A.T. hostels have you actually patronized?

Maybe before telling us how things "sound" to you on the A.T. maybe you should actually spend more time actually on it.

Gosh, what a novel idea.

This just might give your posts some credibility.

JAK? no miles and no clue, but lots of time. sad.

chomp
06-17-2009, 12:03
Seems like a double standard of ethics here.

Why is it ok for scumbag hostel owners to exploit a loophole and not scumbag hikers?

Sounds like a match made in heaven.

Have you ever stayed at a hostel? While money can be made running a hostel, its rarely possible to make a living doing it. There are only a few cases that I can think of where a hostel near the AT can be legitimately run as a business.

So, if you want every hostel on the AT to register itself as a business and a hotel - 80% of them would just disappear. Think about the fee's that these places charge.

If you have any examples of "donation only" hostels that charge high fees and have owners that live like fat cats, I'd love to hear about it. But most of the AT hostels ask for donations to cover their expenses and perhaps put a couple of bucks in their pocket for their time. Nobody is getting rich, or even making a living, by asking for $15 per night.

So if you want these "scumbags" to close their doors, that is your right. Or if you want them to charge $35 because they have to pay room tax, that is your right as well. Personally, I think that most of the hostels are run by kind people who are working for way below minimum wage if you looked at how much they are profiting. Not kicking in a few bucks for the services you are using, required or not, is being a scumbag. IMO.

Hooch
06-17-2009, 12:06
JAK, by his own admission on another thread some time ago, has never set foot on the AT. But, of course, is a know-it-all on nearly every subject imaginable. :rolleyes:

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 12:07
Hey Chomp....even if these places were to close their doors, it's not like JAK would be bothered by this, as he's never gonna see or patronize these places anyway.

You kinda actually have to spend some time on the Trail to be affected. :rolleyes:

Bearpaw
06-17-2009, 12:07
JAK, you're way off on this one. This is a place where not having hiked the AT really throws off your frame of reference. So please, let me make an analogy that would help out.

If you stayed over with a friend's parents for the night, you wouldn't necessarily offer them money for the favor, but I'm confident you would certainly pick up after yourself and help out if there any small chores that arose out of basic courtesy. It seems the OP is complaining about helping out a little bit and claiming a $5 donation makes the hostel owners "greedy f****s".

Most of the hostels that operate on a donation basis ask for a few dollars, maybe 3-5, to help offset basic costs of operation. Most probably lose a little money in fact. These places are essentially opening up private property to help out hikers on the trail. And most hikers respect that fact and act with the same courtesy I'm confident you would.

But then compare this arrangement with another private residence open for a night's stay, the B & B. A room there typically costs at least $50 and more often closer to $100. Why, because the owner has to have licenses and insurance and so forth to run a business AND they want to earn a profit. Take away a big chunk of the profit and you get the "business" hostels with 12 people in a room that must charge $20+ a night to hope to make any money after adhering to business regulations.

Then you have folks like the OP who lack the basic decency to offer any compensation or even help out in the slightest way with the expectation of receiving services. It's extremely troubling.

Thankfully, the massive majority of hikers don't fall into this group.

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:08
Doesn't seem to me like you spend much time on the A.T. anyway, son. :DDon't want to. Sounds too ****ed up. Its all about the money for you isn't it Jack. AT hasn't taught you a damn thing. If you want respect, act your age, and stop complaining so much. Don't call me son you stupid old man. I knew a generation or two that deserved some respect. You ain't it.

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:09
Bearpaw. I ain't that far off.

mister krabs
06-17-2009, 12:09
A donation is a gift, independent of services rendered and with no consideration of reciprocation.

Entitlement is the feeling that one deserves gifts independent of value of services rendered.

Sounds to me that those folks who ask for donations rather than payment should treat them as gifts.

Those who are receiving services with no formal demand of payment should do the right thing and give according to their conscience.

No one should bitch about gifts *not* given, regardless of which side of the equation you happen to be on at the moment.

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:10
Just one bunch of freeloaders treating another bunch like ****, and looking for sympathy.

Hooch
06-17-2009, 12:11
I ain't that far off.

http://www.youthink.com/quiz_images/quiz1290outcome6.jpg

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 12:11
Lemme get this straight, JAK. You have no interest in spending any time actually ON the A.T., but you're interested enough in the subject to post here 7,000 times in order to tell people how much you know about a Trail you're alledgedly not remotely interested in.

Pretty funny.

You must have a lot of free time.

Lone Wolf
06-17-2009, 12:13
damn! what a buncha whiners. find somethin' to do. this thread ain't gonna last much longer :rolleyes:

Hooch
06-17-2009, 12:13
Youu must have a lot of free time.

He does:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_jiQufRdZKJw/STuDJtjbQ2I/AAAAAAAAAc8/J80tcm8IVXg/InternetToughGuy-732335_thumb%5B1%5D.jpg

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:13
Surely not all hostels are the same. Most are probably ok.

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 12:14
How would YOU know?

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:14
You guys love to attack the messenger.

But your game is plain to see, and its pretty lame.

DAJA
06-17-2009, 12:17
Lemme get this straight, JAK. You have no interest in spending any time actually ON the A.T., but you're interested enough in the subject to post here 7,000 times in order to tell people how much you know about a Trail you're alledgedly not remotely interested in.

Pretty funny.

You must have a lot of free time.

Jack, I think it would be fair to say that a good number of people use WB as a source of general hiking information, not just related to the AT... And though JAK has not spent time on the AT does not limit his experience and knowledge regarding hiking and outdoor persuits...

Now quit being an ass napkin and let it go~!

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:17
How would YOU know?
I know I'm right about you and fellow lame ass free loading complainers.

Hooch
06-17-2009, 12:18
I know I'm right about you and fellow lame ass free loading complainers.I knwo you are, but what am I?

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/040402/tdy_stone_peewee_040402.300w.jpg

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:19
You guys wouldn't know a double standard if it was shoved up your ass.

mudhead
06-17-2009, 12:19
Once you can edit I figure you will.

DAJA
06-17-2009, 12:20
You guys wouldn't know a double standard if it was shoved up your ass.

and plugged with a napkin!:D

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 12:20
Oh, so now JAK is a "messenger"?

Geez, seems to me that messengers arrive with useful news and information.

Please feel free to inform us, JAK, on why and how you feel qualified to supply us with information on a hiking Trail that you admit you haven't spent any time on, and have no interest in doing so.

Why are you a qualified messenger on this subject, eh?

And now you're telling us what is "lame".

What's lame, JAK, is a guy who has the leisure time to post 7,000 times on a subject he freely acknowledges he knows nothing about.

Now THAT'S what I'd call lame.

Some messenger!! :D

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:21
Do your own editing.

saimyoji
06-17-2009, 12:22
i'm guessing its wool withdrawal....

Whats the matter JAK, sheep (http://www.stellaparker.com/funny1/pics/2002/Sheep_****er.jpg) not putting out lately?

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:23
Oh, so now JAK is a "messenger"?

Geez, seems to me that messengers arrive with useful news and information.

Please feel free to inform us, JAK, on why and how you feel qualified to supply us with information on a hiking Trail that you admit you haven't spent any time on, and have no interest in doing so.

Why are you a qualified messenger on this subject, eh?

And now you're telling us what is "lame".

What's lame, JAK, is a guy who has the leisure time to post 7,000 times on a subject he freely acknowledges he knows nothing about.

Now THAT'S what I'd call lame.

Some messenger!! :DJack. Your logic sucks, and so do your morals.

You are not a nice person, and because of people like you, the AT isn't what it could be.

saimyoji
06-17-2009, 12:25
in all fairness JAK does seem to be knowledgeable about some stuff....wool, wind chill and stuff come to mind. Why he has 7000 posts here and now says he doesn't even want to hike the AT is kinda weird though. :rolleyes:

Hooch
06-17-2009, 12:26
.......the AT isn't what it could be.If you've spent no time on it, how would you know, dip****?

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 12:26
Hmmm, do I detect a pattern here?

Is New Brunswick the West Virginia of Canada?

Um, DAJA, you might wanna note that I never said JAK doesn't know anything about hiking. Perhaps he does.

What I said was that he doesn't know much about the A.T., and he proves this every time he talks about the Trail.

Seems to me that someone who posts a dozen times about facilities on the A.T. might wanna actually set foot in one of these places before becoming a "messenger" in regards to the subject.

At least it seems he'd wanna do this if he wanted his posts to have anything remotely resembling credibility.

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:27
Jack,
You just gave me credibility. We can play this game all day.

I'm sure you have your friends, as I have mine.

We clearly don't like each other, and we have different standards of behaviour towards our fellow man.

So **** you.

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 12:28
This a great. So I'm not a "nice person."

I guess to qualify for that, you have to start anonymously cursing people out.

Is this how one becomes a nice person, JAK? Is that what it takes?

Too funny.

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:30
Maybe New Brunswick is the West Virginia of Canada. So what?

Hooch
06-17-2009, 12:32
Maybe New Brunswick is the West Virginia of Canada. So what?http://www.perverts.nl/files/West-Virginia%20Drivers%20License.jpg

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:32
This a great. So I'm not a "nice person."

I guess to qualify for that, you have to start anonymously cursing people out.

Is this how one becomes a nice person, JAK? Is that what it takes?

Too funny.Jack.

We could have made this just about ideas.

You would lose, of course, because you don't really care much for ideas.

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 12:33
Geez, any moderators in this neighborhood?

I kinda thought repeatedly telling people "F*** you!" was kinda considered a violation of the user standards here.

I guess Canadians get a pass.

Oh, in closing JAK is dead right about at least one thing.....we DO indeed have different standards of behavior. For example, I don't cuss people out on the Internet under a cute fake name.

If I'm gonna talk to someone like that, I generally do it in person.

I guess New Brunswickers have different standards. :D

Bye, JAK.

mister krabs
06-17-2009, 12:34
Then you have folks like the OP who lack the basic decency to offer any compensation or even help out in the slightest way with the expectation of receiving services. It's extremely troubling.

Thankfully, the massive majority of hikers don't fall into this group.

The OP never said it was him, though that hasn't stopped people from saying he's a cheap entitled whippersnapper. He said he saw hostel owners do it more than once, which would indicate that it *wasn't* him if they bitched about it after the offender did his deed.

If donation is code for "you owe me" than unrealistic expectations are almost guaranteed. But in fairness those expectations are *SET* by the one who posts the sign, not the one who follows it's directions. If donation really means donation, then they should be glad for what they get and really glad for those who go above and beyond. If it means something else, then they should say so.

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:34
So this is about trashing the entire State of West Virginia now is it.

I'll take West Virginia over you lot.

Marta
06-17-2009, 12:36
Sorry, sometimes moderators have to work, and do other non-Whiteblaze things.

Gazing into my crystal ball, I see a bunch of posts disappearing, and several people being placed on Moderated status.

Learning to moderate oneself is a useful skill.

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 12:36
JAK:

You don't hike the Trail; you have no experience with the Trail; you just said you have no interest in spending much time on it.

So how on earth would anything you have to say help this discussion be about "ideas."

What on earth makes you think your "ideas" on the Trail are worth a cup of spit?

In short, when it comes to the Trail, you are essentially bereft of ideas.

Get it?

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:37
Geez, any moderators in this neighborhood?

I kinda thought repeatedly telling people "F*** you!" was kinda considered a violation of the user standards here.

I guess Canadians get a pass.

Oh, in closing JAK is dead right about at least one thing.....we DO indeed have different standards of behavior. For example, I don't cuss people out on the Internet under a cute fake name.

If I'm gonna talk to someone like that, I generally do it in person.

I guess New Brunswickers have different standards. :D

Bye, JAK.So now you do want to talk about double standards?

Make up your mind Jack.

mister krabs
06-17-2009, 12:37
Clear expectations set by a hostel can be found here.
http://www.hikerhostel.com/accomodations.php

Now why exactly can't everyone manage expectations like this?

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:38
JAK:

You don't hike the Trail; you have no experience with the Trail; you just said you have no interest in spending much time on it.

So how on earth would anything you have to say help this discussion be about "ideas."

What on earth makes you think your "ideas" on the Trail are worth a cup of spit?

In short, when it comes to the Trail, you are essentially bereft of ideas.

Get it?People can judge for themselves.

I don't need people to take my side if they don't want to.

Gumbi
06-17-2009, 12:38
Post closing in 3...2...1...

saimyoji
06-17-2009, 12:38
Geez, any moderators in this neighborhood?


don't be a crybaby. stand up for yourself; fight your own battles; no need for a mod to protect you. :rolleyes:



So this is about trashing the entire State of West Virginia now is it.

I'll take West Virginia over you lot.


You realize that you both look like total buttholes right now? Not your best moments. :sun

TD55
06-17-2009, 12:39
Jack,
You just gave me credibility. We can play this game all day.

I'm sure you have your friends, as I have mine.

We clearly don't like each other, and we have different standards of behaviour towards our fellow man.

So **** you.
Nobody gave you credibility. Thats what this part of the thread is about, your lack of credibility.

Did JT say he did not like you, or is it basicly you saying you don't like him? Do you always get angry and mean when somebody disagrees with you?

Cussing at someone is not very nice and kind of makes you look stooopid.

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 12:39
anyone feeling a chill in here?... must be that canadian low coming through again... blowing a big windchill. :)

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 12:39
I don't really want to talk about this at all any more, JAK, at least not with you.

Marta's right, this one's pretty much done, unless people want to get back to talking about hostels.

jersey joe
06-17-2009, 12:39
Clear expectations set by a hostel can be found here.
http://www.hikerhostel.com/accomodations.php

Now why exactly can't everyone manage expectations like this?
Good points mister krabs. It is all about setting expectations.

Lone Wolf
06-17-2009, 12:40
don't be a crybaby. stand up for yourself; fight your own battles; no need for a mod to protect you. :rolleyes:



You realize that you both look like total buttholes right now? Not your best moments. :sun

yup. agree

Heater
06-17-2009, 12:40
jak, you are full of crap.

On one hand you want the govt. out of our pockets.

Now, These hostels are taking it upon themselves to do just that by working the system against itself. You of all people should be proud of them.

A handful of "me me" bitches complain because they didn't get what they wanted when they wanted it because they don't "get" the concept of common courtesy. Then, you blame others for their misgivings. Common Courtesy is not something that is taught by parents or society. It is just a feeling. You just know.

It goes to character.

It is people like you that are so far to ONE side that really screw societies up.

Have a good one, jak.

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:42
I still have faith in humanity,
but I'm not going to take one persons side just because he's running a business.

Fair is fair.

Heater
06-17-2009, 12:43
"It is people like you that are so far to ONE side that really screw societies up."

That goes to both Jacks.

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 12:43
I don't really want to talk about this at all any more, JAK, at least not with you.

Marta's right, this one's pretty much done, unless people want to get back to talking about hostels.

i don't care for hostels myself, but i was happy to see the hikers welcome hostel in glencliff when it was about to storm. paid double for the kindness of packrat and friends. took him up on a great, low cost shuttle ride too. added a tip for the ride and heard some great trail stories.

Heater
06-17-2009, 12:46
Fair is fair.

You sound like a 3 year old.

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:50
It not the hostels I have a problem with. It's people using this forum to shame people into being better customers. I don't like all the belly aching, and worse, all the talk in general about how bad people are, unless they are running a business. Then suddenly they are like gods. Its a double standard. Its a double standard and its all because of money. Lets put people first, then there won't be so many squabbles such as this over money. Money ain't that important. Lets all bury the hatchet and talk about things what really matters.

TD55
06-17-2009, 12:50
OK, well, all this talk about the meaning of "donations" has me a bit confused. I was involved at operating a non-profit retreat and also at another time a specialized hostel/shelter. Any monetary donations had to be listed as "income", no matter the size. We had work for stay also. The work done had to be calculated into monetary amounts and also listed as income. We got absolutly no breaks in regards to helath and safty regulations Just because we were non-profit and/or took donations. When people stayed without payment the monetary amount was listed as "promotion and advertising" under cost of business.

DAJA
06-17-2009, 12:50
Geez, any moderators in this neighborhood?

I kinda thought repeatedly telling people "F*** you!" was kinda considered a violation of the user standards here.

I guess Canadians get a pass.

Oh, in closing JAK is dead right about at least one thing.....we DO indeed have different standards of behavior. For example, I don't cuss people out on the Internet under a cute fake name.

If I'm gonna talk to someone like that, I generally do it in person.

I guess New Brunswickers have different standards. :D

Bye, JAK.

What does this have to do with where people are from? The border is just an arbitrary line drawn a long time ago, often following logical geographical characteristic's like a river, valley or range...

Anyway, back on topic... So if a hostel uses a loophole such as asking for donations to avoid paying manditory taxes, most of you believe that to be honest and fair. Yet, if a hiker avoids paying a "voluntary" donation to a hostel, they are a sleezeball hiker trash....

Though I agree, that everyone who recieves a service should contribute what they can either financially or in chores, I gotta agree with JAK here... Huge double standard.. If playing by the rules means that the Hostels would be out of business, well then let them go or change the rules, but don't attack people for playing the same game...

And yes Jack for the record I have never stayed in an AT hostel, and yes i'm sure they are unique in every way and not at all like any other hostel anywhere else in the world because the AT is a very very special and unique place... Just wanted to get that out there before you started attacking my credibility...

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:51
You sound like a 3 year old.Well, last time I checked, fair is fair my friend. What do you think this is about if not fairness?

ShelterLeopard
06-17-2009, 12:53
I don't mind donating, or even working for stay- I worked for my stay at the Back Home Again Cafe in Rutland, and all I had to do was help one of the women who worked there clean out the hostel rooms.

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:54
Or perhaps I am wrong and its like Margaret Thatcher said. "There is no society".

How did that go?

JAK
06-17-2009, 12:58
"They are casting their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours."

Margaret Thatcher

TD55
06-17-2009, 12:59
This thing will go on and on if you refuse to aknowlege facts. The hostel owner is not getting a tax break or avoiding regulations by allowing donations or work for stay. You guys keep saying that they do, like you know what you are talking about. I've done this and been there. You guys have not.

kanga
06-17-2009, 12:59
this is awesome!

John B
06-17-2009, 13:03
Whew. I just read the entire thread from beginning to the end. And I'm totally confused about exactly what's in dispute.

It seems that, on the one hand, we have the JAK-asses, who find there is somehow a double standard when 20-somethings are asked to donate and then don't but are called to task for not doing so.

And on the other hand, we seem to have the Tarlin-ites, who take umbrage at 20-somethings who don't donate when asked to do so.

Is that a somewhat fair summary? :)

DAJA
06-17-2009, 13:03
This thing will go on and on if you refuse to aknowlege facts. The hostel owner is not getting a tax break or avoiding regulations by allowing donations or work for stay. You guys keep saying that they do, like you know what you are talking about. I've done this and been there. You guys have not.

Are all AT hostels legally registered as such, or do some fly under the radar like a hiker walking out without paying his way?

Lone Wolf
06-17-2009, 13:03
OK, well, all this talk about the meaning of "donations" has me a bit confused. I was involved at operating a non-profit retreat and also at another time a specialized hostel/shelter. Any monetary donations had to be listed as "income", no matter the size. We had work for stay also. The work done had to be calculated into monetary amounts and also listed as income. We got absolutly no breaks in regards to helath and safty regulations Just because we were non-profit and/or took donations. When people stayed without payment the monetary amount was listed as "promotion and advertising" under cost of business.

all hostels should have fire exit signs, sprinkler systems, fire escapes, etc. most don't

JAK
06-17-2009, 13:04
So you don't understand what a double standard is then, is that what you are asking?

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 13:04
This thing will go on and on if you refuse to aknowlege facts. The hostel owner is not getting a tax break or avoiding regulations by allowing donations or work for stay. You guys keep saying that they do, like you know what you are talking about. I've done this and been there. You guys have not.

thanks for sharing your experience. although, i would be surprised if every hostel is this clean, but maybe they are. i know many other cash businesses that would not survive if they didn't under report. and i know the irs often looks the other way. thanks again td55.

TD55
06-17-2009, 13:05
Some of you have gone from being experts about everything AT when you have never even seen it let alone hiked it, to just making up crap. I met JT briefly at the LL BEAN Shelter in "99. I did not know anything about him or his history, but I knew this just by watching him set up his camp. He is the real deal when it comes to thru hiking.

JAK
06-17-2009, 13:06
Whew. I just read the entire thread from beginning to the end. And I'm totally confused about exactly what's in dispute.

It seems that, on the one hand, we have the JAK-asses, who find there is somehow a double standard when 20-somethings are asked to donate and then don't but are called to task for not doing so.

And on the other hand, we seem to have the Tarlin-ites, who take umbrage at 20-somethings who don't donate when asked to do so.

Is that a somewhat fair summary? :)So you don't understand what a double standard is, or do you just want to mischaracterize what we've been saying?

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 13:06
all hostels should have fire exit signs, sprinkler systems, fire escapes, etc. most don't

actually, fire hazard would be more accurate description for some

Lone Wolf
06-17-2009, 13:08
I met JT briefly at the LL BEAN Shelter in "99. I did not know anything about him or his history, but I knew this just by watching him set up his camp. He is the real deal when it comes to thru hiking.

you can tell if a dude is the real deal by the way he sets up his tent?

ki0eh
06-17-2009, 13:09
Wow, what is this, February? Shouldn't have this much vitriol online in hiking season.

Also, is this JAK the same one who quotes all these obscure authors at length, or was his account hacked??

Lyle
06-17-2009, 13:11
Anyway, back on topic... So if a hostel uses a loophole such as asking for donations to avoid paying manditory taxes, most of you believe that to be honest and fair. Yet, if a hiker avoids paying a "voluntary" donation to a hostel, they are a sleezeball hiker trash....

Though I agree, that everyone who recieves a service should contribute what they can either financially or in chores, I gotta agree with JAK here... Huge double standard.. If playing by the rules means that the Hostels would be out of business, well then let them go or change the rules, but don't attack people for playing the same game...

.

Actually, the Hostels seem to be playing by the rules. The government (IRS) is full of special rules that allow some classes of business/individuals to lower their tax burden because it is a positive for society to do so. Apparently, the method to operate this type of service for frugal travelers, is to only accept a donation. It is a term that the tax/business laws have required. While it may not be technically an accurate term, it is what is used as a determinant when it comes to taxes and licensing.

That said, I doubt that there is anything in the law or tax code that says an operator of said business can't "expect" a donation, even suggest a donation amount for the services rendered. The situation where the term donation would be important, would be if a Hostel owner tried to LEGALLY enforce this expectation - they couldn't do it.

You may not agree with the entire premise of this, I don't, as I implied earlier when discussing gratuities in restaurants. The fact is, this is the system we have and there are generally accepted rules. In a restaurant, I leave a tip if the service was adequate, bigger tip if the service was exceptional. Waiters/Waitresses expect it. I think the Hostel owners have the same right to expect a donation when they make clear that that is how they fund the operation.

This is common sense. Lumber costs money, water costs money, electricity costs money, Toilet Paper costs money. I'm sure their suppliers don't say, here you go - no charge. Common decency says that if you accept the service, you accept the terms of the service offered, or go elsewhere.

I believe that is JT's position, not sure if it's JAK's.

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 13:11
Wow, what is this, February? Shouldn't have this much vitriol online in hiking season.

Also, is this JAK the same one who quotes all these obscure authors at length, or was his account hacked??

windchill JAK, nanoonkook of the north, yepperdoodle :)

DAJA
06-17-2009, 13:11
Some of you have gone from being experts about everything AT when you have never even seen it let alone hiked it, to just making up crap. .

But your never answered my question... Are all AT hostels legally registered with there respective states? Or are they freeloading off tax payers?

And to address your credibility arguement... It's a huge red herring! Suppose I slug you in the side of the head with a baseball bat... My assumption is that it will hurt, likely a lot... Yet I have no experience doing so, so maybe i'm wrong... Willing to challenge my credibility on this example?

Not in any way intended as a threat, simply pointing out that when one challenges ones credibility they kinda leave themselves out there to be challenged in return...

TD55
06-17-2009, 13:11
Are all AT hostels legally registered as such, or do some fly under the radar like a hiker walking out without paying his way?

No, most are probably not, however that does release the owner(s) responsibility as an individual in regards to tax reporting. I was just trying to make the point that the hostel owners are not using the donation thing as a gimmick to get out of following rules. I don't think anyone really cares except for........

John B
06-17-2009, 13:12
So you don't understand what a double standard is, or do you just want to mischaracterize what we've been saying?

Oh I get it, JAK. I was trying to be funny. See the lil' smiley face? Sorry. I ain't in graduate skool like you is and ain't very smart.

Please resume your posting. :sun

JAK
06-17-2009, 13:12
Do hostel owners or service providers or business owners need my help more than people in general?

Why should I take there side?
If I am to speak highly of them, and poorly of others, why?

Should I do this for free?

chomp
06-17-2009, 13:12
W
Anyway, back on topic... So if a hostel uses a loophole such as asking for donations to avoid paying manditory taxes, most of you believe that to be honest and fair. Yet, if a hiker avoids paying a "voluntary" donation to a hostel, they are a sleezeball hiker trash....

Though I agree, that everyone who recieves a service should contribute what they can either financially or in chores, I gotta agree with JAK here... Huge double standard.. If playing by the rules means that the Hostels would be out of business, well then let them go or change the rules, but don't attack people for playing the same game...



You guys are missing the point entirely on the hostels. Most of them are NOT a business and are not RUN like a business. Some of them are, and for the most part, those places don't use the word "donation". But the poeple that simply open their home to hikers and provide simple services... they are not a business. But they also would not be able to stay open without "donations". Asking these places to run themselves like a business won't work - because they are NOT a business. Enter the "suggested" donation - generally enough money to cover expenses and keep things running for another season.

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 13:13
Actually, the Hostels seem to be playing by the rules. The government (IRS) is full of special rules that allow some classes of business/individuals to lower their tax burden because it is a positive for society to do so. Apparently, the method to operate this type of service for frugal travelers, is to only accept a donation. It is a term that the tax/business laws have required. While it may not be technically an accurate term, it is what is used as a determinant when it comes to taxes and licensing.

That said, I doubt that there is anything in the law or tax code that says an operator of said business can't "expect" a donation, even suggest a donation amount for the services rendered. The situation where the term donation would be important, would be if a Hostel owner tried to LEGALLY enforce this expectation - they couldn't do it.

You may not agree with the entire premise of this, I don't, as I implied earlier when discussing gratuities in restaurants. The fact is, this is the system we have and there are generally accepted rules. In a restaurant, I leave a tip if the service was adequate, bigger tip if the service was exceptional. Waiters/Waitresses expect it. I think the Hostel owners have the same right to expect a donation when they make clear that that is how they fund the operation.

This is common sense. Lumber costs money, water costs money, electricity costs money, Toilet Paper costs money. I'm sure their suppliers don't say, here you go - no charge. Common decency says that if you accept the service, you accept the terms of the service offered, or go elsewhere.

I believe that is JT's position, not sure if it's JAK's.

awesome... but i'm sure some still don't get it

CowHead
06-17-2009, 13:14
Seems like 99% of all post end in us vs them, whats up with that! can't we just talk hiking and a little less bit$#@$ching

TD55
06-17-2009, 13:16
you can tell if a dude is the real deal by the way he sets up his tent?
No, but when he spots the best tent site in 8 seconds, gets his tarp up perfect in about two minutes and is preparing his meal while all the other thru hikers (talkin LL Bean Shelter) still opening thier packs, ya, I guess that gave me a clue.

DAJA
06-17-2009, 13:18
No, most are probably not, however that does release the owner(s) responsibility as an individual in regards to tax reporting. I was just trying to make the point that the hostel owners are not using the donation thing as a gimmick to get out of following rules. I don't think anyone really cares except for........

hence the double standard...

JAK
06-17-2009, 13:22
I think the original post was about places advertising themselves as 'free stay' or 'donations', when in fact some non-voluntary fee was expected, and whether or this is or isn't misleading. Some maintain that any decent honest person would know that 'free stay' or 'donations' is code for something else.

Could someone explain again why it can't be more clearly stated that some fixed fee or work for stay is expected? Not why it shouldn't have to be, but why it can't be? That might clear up the original post, and alot of needless squabbling or ethics and double standards.

Why does there have to be some secret code, as some have suggested?

JAK
06-17-2009, 13:26
Also, is it ok to threaten hikers that there name will be mud if they don't pay.
Is that a form of extortion, or is it just honest and direct communication?

Wouldn't it be better if the terms could be posted more clearly, and known in advance?

What do the guide books say?

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 13:26
JohnB:

I never said anything about under 20 people not donating, in fact NONE of my comments here were aimed specifically at under 20 people, most of whom are just fine.

If I took "umbrage" here (your phrase) it was because I objected to a poster referring to hostel owners who accepted donations as being "scumbags." I thought this remark was way out of line.

I further took "umbrage" with folks who speak with authority on Trail matters but who, in reality, know very little about what it's actually like out there.

I think people should help out when they stay at hostels, especially if it's apparent that one is staying a hostel that is run out of love, and is clearly NOT being run as a for-profit business enterprise.

"Helping out" means making yourself useful around the place; it means cleaning up after yourself; it means doing some chores to help keep the place operating; it often means taking a minute to straighten up the messes left by inconsiderate guests......of any age.

And yes, helping out also means offering a donation for your stay. If you can't make a donation, or have little or no cash on you, then go out of your way and do some extra work, i.e. ask the proprietors if there's anything extra they need a hand with. This will always be appreciated.

But when a place is run "by donation" or when you see a box on the wall or a sign that says "donations accepted", yes indeed, this technically means that there's no charge for staying there, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't try and give them something if you can.

I volunteered at a busy Trail hostel this spring and I assure you that there's absolutely no way that one person can keep a trail hostel up and running by themselves, especially at the height of hiker season. It's a group effort, there's always something that needs to be done. So if you stay at one of these places, try and help out. Do a few chores. Ask the hostel-keeper if there's anything going on (repairs, cleaning, work projects, whatever) that they might need extra help on. And if you're in a position to do so, leave a donation.

It needs to be stressed that very few of these places make much money, or are even operating in the expectation of making any.

This is why it's important for everyone to help out in one way or another, and it doesn't matter if you're 20 or 70. Anyone who avails themselves of these places should help them out in one way or another; anyone not willing to do this should probably stay somewhere else. You don't feel like sweeping a floor, making a bed, folding some laundry? You too good to do this? Well, there's a simple remedy. Find a motel.

Dances with Mice
06-17-2009, 13:29
No, most are probably not, however that does release the owner(s) responsibility as an individual in regards to tax reporting. I was just trying to make the point that the hostel owners are not using the donation thing as a gimmick to get out of following rules. I don't think anyone really cares except for........


hence the double standard...I don't see a double standard. The discussion has been about service providers and service users who choose not to pay but are, on the other hand, so sensitive they are offended when the truth is told about them.

If you do something do it loud and proud. Tell the hostel owner up front that you ain't paying because the ad says free and the sign says donations so you're keeping all your pennies in your pocket. Be honest about your actions from the start. What's the problem with that?

JAK
06-17-2009, 13:31
Jack is mischaracterizing what I said.

I think it would be helpful if someone could explain why the 'real' terms can't be known more clearly in advance, if that is the case. What do the various guidebooks state are the real terms, and what do they suggest in terms of reasonable donations?

Wouldn't it be better if people could be more open about terms of service?

Is there really anything preventing them, or is this simple the way they choose to operate?

Hooch
06-17-2009, 13:32
I don't think it's a matter of interpreting some secret code or anything of the sort. I'm inclined to agree with Bearpaw's earlier post on this one. It all boils down to character and common decency. If someone puts a roof over my head and a place to crash for the night, gives me a place to shower, wash clothes, have a good meal by opening up their home, barn, treehouse, etc to me, then it's a simple matter of common decency to do something in return to thank them for their hospitality. A nominal donationa nd cleaning up after yourself is the least that should be expected. Anything that goes above and beyone that, I'm sure, would be appreciated. Expecting a free ride just because one is a hiker, or even a thru-hiker, is just plain old rude.

Dances with Mice
06-17-2009, 13:33
Also, is it ok to threaten hikers that there name will be mud if they don't pay.
Is that a form of extortion, or is it just honest and direct communication?

Wouldn't it be better if the terms could be posted more clearly, and known in advance?

What do the guide books say?The Big Guide Book of Life says There Ain't No Such Thing as a Free Lunch.

Hooch
06-17-2009, 13:34
No,w if someone wants the "real terms" of a paritcular hostel, then it would be a good idea to contact them in advance and get the information directly from the proverbial horse's mouth.

JAK
06-17-2009, 13:36
That is a good point by Dances With Mice.

If you are not going to pay, be open and honest about it up front.
If you are going to call people scumbags for doing so, set a fixed fee up front.

What is preventing that?

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 13:38
That is a good point by Dances With Mice.

If you are not going to pay, be open and honest about it up front.
If you are going to call people scumbags for doing so, set a fixed fee up front.

What is preventing that?

reading comprehension and common sense, no doubt

JAK
06-17-2009, 13:39
The Big Guide Book of Life says There Ain't No Such Thing as a Free Lunch.Yeah I get that.

But what is preventing hostel owners from making their exact terms more clear?

Shouldn't they also be expected to be open and honest up front?

Jester2000
06-17-2009, 13:40
That said, donations are mostly a scheme for avoiding taxes and regulations. Period. Whatever the motive, that's why it's done. So it provides me a certain amount of amusement that someone who is evading regulations and taxes gets sore at someone who evades paying for services rendered.

I can see why this seems right, except that the hostel owners are not evading regulations and taxes in order to make more money than they otherwise would; they are doing so in order to be able to offer, at low cost, the places and services they offer, with little in the way of profit motive driving them. On the other hand, those evading paying are doing so strictly for selfish reasons -- regardless of any claim to some sort of pure dedication to a semantical argument. To blithly brush off motive as important is, I think, to miss the point, and allows one to equate two groups of people who could not be more dissimilar.


My issue is with people getting upset that hikers don't leave donations if a hostel advertises as "FREE". If you expect a donation, then just say "minimum fee required". Don't set one expectation and expect another.

As I noted, there are only two places in the South that advertise as "free," and they are rather far apart from one another. As I don't know where the original poster was hiking or where the "hostels" (plural) he was complaining about were, I can't speak knowledgeably about what was advertised by the places he was referring to, but I highly doubt he was referring to both of the hostels that advertise themselves as such.


This is about how to make as money as possible from them and their lame ass parents.

We could ask some of the wealthy hostel owners why they feel they can take advantage of hikers, could we find any wealthy hostel owners.

The thing is, many hostel owners "suggest," "ask for," "accept," or "appreciate" donations. There are a couple of reasons for this. First, because of the way some hostels are set up, there isn't 24 hour staffing at a particular location in the hostel where people would pay. I would rather have the hostel owner running the free shuttle into town he offers than have him sitting at the entrance all day collecting money. There may be other ways to solve this problem, but they would probably be as easy to evade as the donation system.

Second, because the hostels that run on a donation basis are not being run to make a profit, complying with licensing, zoning, and tax law would mean closing. It's that simple. These are people doing something they love for people who should appreciate the fact that these places exist at all. I can't tell you how many hikers come to Harpers Ferry and piss and moan about having to pay $30 to stay at the Town's Inn, which is a for-profit business that gives the hikers a pretty big break compared to what they usually charge.

The Philadelphia Art Museum ran a program on Sundays where patrons were asked to "pay what you can." People could walk in for free, and many did. It was basically a donation system, set up so that those who could not afford to pay the normal fee could still have a chance to see and appreciate great art. I would sometimes hear friends say, "Sundays are Free!" I would point out to them that the museum was free, but not for them.

I feel the same way about the hostels. If you genuinely could not afford to throw in a donation of a couple of bucks and apologetically said so to a hostel owner, they wouldn't have a problem with that. But to think to oneself, "hey, this is a hostel that exists because of donations, which in my mind means I'm not required to pay, which means I'm not going to," well, that shows a level of disrespect for the hostel and the owner that makes it unsurprising that one might get badmouthed.

As with many things, there's an easy solution here. Don't give a crap what people think or say about you? Go on your merry way with your lack of respect for others. On the other hand, if it bothers you to be talked ill of, drop a few bucks in the jar to support a place you should appreciate enough to want to support without any external pressure.

My apologies for the very long post.

mister krabs
06-17-2009, 13:40
Boy, this got all flipped around, though it's nice to see people coming back to their senses. We've discussed all about the guest's responsibilities. OP said he was disappointed by the Host's reaction. What about the host's reaction? Is it OK for him to badmouth hikers who choose not to make a donation? OP didn't talk at all about whether those hikers did the right things otherwise, cleaned up after, etc. So assuming they did all that, and did not leave a "donation," is it OK for the host to bitch and besmirch that "cheap bastard", or does the OP have a reasonable gripe?

Tin Man
06-17-2009, 13:40
That is a good point by Dances With Mice.

If you are not going to pay, be open and honest about it up front.
If you are going to call people scumbags for doing so, set a fixed fee up front.

What is preventing that?


reading comprehension and common sense, no doubt

as in yours JAK

Hooch
06-17-2009, 13:41
That is a good point by Dances With Mice.

If you are not going to pay, be open and honest about it up front.
If you are going to call people scumbags for doing so, set a fixed fee up front.

What is preventing that?
Hostel owners do have the right to run their hostel the way they wish. If someone doesn't like how the hostel is run, regardless of the issue, then they are free to not stay there. No one is forced to stay at any hostel.

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 13:42
Wow, I didn't think I was mis-characterizing any one.

(And people who call other people "scumbags" or who repeatedly curse out people who disagree with them are probably not the ones who should be talking about being mis-characterized, but let's not go there).

What I said, and I thought my last post made it pretty clear, was that people should help out at these places. And there's nothing secretive or shady about how these places run. Every hiker has a guidebook of some sort that describes these place, including telling costs, information on whether or not they'd appreciate or expect donations, etc. So everyone knows that certain places would not only take donations, but expect them. You stay at a place like Kincora, this is clearly known before you get there. You stay at place like the Place in Damascus, it's clearly known.

Anyone that thinks that hostel-keepers are being somehow secretive or dis-ingenuous about their operating policies or expectations.....well anyone who actually thinks this is true simply hasn't enough experience with these places to say such things.

The "real" terms under which hiker hostels operate is clearly known to anyone that actually sets foot in these places.

Those that have obviously never done so are the only folks confused about this.

JAK
06-17-2009, 13:44
So how are they running them? That's what I am asking.

Should they be allowed to advertise as free, and then extort a fee?

TD55
06-17-2009, 13:45
But your never answered my question... Are all AT hostels legally registered with there respective states? Or are they freeloading off tax payers?

And to address your credibility arguement... It's a huge red herring! Suppose I slug you in the side of the head with a baseball bat... My assumption is that it will hurt, likely a lot... Yet I have no experience doing so, so maybe i'm wrong... Willing to challenge my credibility on this example?

Not in any way intended as a threat, simply pointing out that when one challenges ones credibility they kinda leave themselves out there to be challenged in return...
You are going to keep running this on and on, somehow trying to make good natured hostel owners who provide services at thier exspense comparable to a customer who receives the services but does't pay. One is a giver, the other is a taker. You are a phoney person. In an earlier post I alost say a spot of hope as you discribed yourself as a green thinking person with good attentions. The comments about hitting me wiith a baseball in my head kind of give you away as being the *&^$@"{)( you are. Ya, I'm up for the challenge

Jester2000
06-17-2009, 13:47
Should they be allowed to advertise as free, and then extort a fee?

As I stated, there are two, count 'em, two, in the South that advertise as free. And in all my time in hostels, I have never, ever, seen a hostel owner do anything that would even remotely qualify as extortion.

Lyle
06-17-2009, 13:49
Yeah I get that.

But what is preventing hostel owners from making their exact terms more clear?


Perhaps because they want to remain very flexible as a service to the hikers. Not all hikers can afford the same "donation" and the Hostel owners are acknowledging that fact. If they set a specific fee, then a truly broke hiker, whether temporarily or long term, would not stay or would feel guilty about staying. Leaving the donation open, allows each to contribute according to their circumstance at the moment.

Chances are a physician or attorney out hiking either a long section or thru, will be in a much better position to make a donation than a broke college student who is scrimping. The Hostel owners do not wish to exclude anyone, but that doesn't completely excuse the poor hiker from all responsibility as others have pointed out.

Hooch
06-17-2009, 13:49
So how are they running them? That's what I am asking. This question really can't be answered except by those who either run the hostels or who are privy to the operations of each and every hostel out there. Each one is individually owned and operatied, making no two the same. In short, there is no easy answer to this question.

Dances with Mice
06-17-2009, 13:49
People who don't pay for services rendered by using their cash or labor wind up paying by being characterized as a bad hostel guest.

See? There really Ain't No Such Thing as a Free Lunch.

JAK
06-17-2009, 13:52
I must admit that Jack is right about a couple of things for certain.

I have never hiked the AT, and I am confused about terms of stay at hostels.
I am also confused about why terms of service can't be known more clearly in advance.

To me, as a foriegner, this all makes me cautious.
I like to pay my own way, but I don't like being taken for a fool.
I certainly wouldn't want people extorting money with threats of slander.

This web site does not always paint a pretty picture of the AT, and folks like Jack don't help.

chief
06-17-2009, 13:52
Wow, a lot of bother over semantics! Personally I never fail to pay when I use services near the trail and I always clean up after myself. However, I really dislike the ambiguity that "donations accepted" entails.

If you're gonna offer a service out of the goodness of your heart to your beloved hikers, then why the hell are you wanting donations? If it becomes too much for you, limit it!

If you're trying to operate a business or make a few bucks on the side, then for gods sake charge me up front, don't ask for donations. We all know what that's all about!

For the above reason, I go to Laural Fork rather than Kincora, for instance. They have the services I want and they ask me to pay up front for services I use. It's a fair deal, though I would prefer a motel in all cases.

Disclaimer - I know there are hikers who can't afford to pay sometimes, they should stay in the woods or better yet, get a job and make some money before you hike. Nothings free in this world. In addition, I am not a thru-hiker, though I did hike 1400 or so miles in 2000 and I stayed at the HIE in Erwin.

Hooch
06-17-2009, 13:53
....... Are all AT hostels legally registered with there respective states? Or are they freeloading off tax payers?.......I they're not registered, how does this make them freeloading off the tax payers?

Lyle
06-17-2009, 13:53
Boy, this got all flipped around, though it's nice to see people coming back to their senses. We've discussed all about the guest's responsibilities. OP said he was disappointed by the Host's reaction. What about the host's reaction? Is it OK for him to badmouth hikers who choose not to make a donation? OP didn't talk at all about whether those hikers did the right things otherwise, cleaned up after, etc. So assuming they did all that, and did not leave a "donation," is it OK for the host to bitch and besmirch that "cheap bastard", or does the OP have a reasonable gripe?

Good point, and you are probably right, the Hostel owner should not be bad-mouthing the hikers - leave that to fellow hikers.:D

Jester2000
06-17-2009, 13:54
People who don't pay for services rendered by using their cash or labor wind up paying by being characterized as a bad hostel guest.

See? There really Ain't No Such Thing as a Free Lunch.

I agree. That's why I wrote this:


On the other hand, if it bothers you to be talked ill of, drop a few bucks in the jar to support a place you should appreciate enough to want to support without any external pressure.

Everybody pays somehow, be it in money, work, or reputation.

Hooch
06-17-2009, 13:55
I have never hiked the AT, and I am confused about terms of stay at hostels.
I am also confused about why terms of service can't be known more clearly in advance.

As I said before, all you have to do is contact the hostel in advance and ask them what their terms of service and fees are. I'm sure thet they'd be happy to answer any questions you have.

TD55
06-17-2009, 13:56
Jack is mischaracterizing what I said.

I think it would be helpful if someone could explain why the 'real' terms can't be known more clearly in advance, if that is the case. What do the various guidebooks state are the real terms, and what do they suggest in terms of reasonable donations?

Wouldn't it be better if people could be more open about terms of service?

Is there really anything preventing them, or is this simple the way they choose to operate?
If they did as you suggest someone like you would cry and complain that you had to cut wood and some other guy only had to fold sheets. Keeping what we call "simple/stupid" gives us the FREEDOM to use our common sense. We don't need every little rule written in the rule book by some rule maker. You can scam and fool people lots of places, this does not appear to be one of them. No matter how much you type, ya can't cover up the stech of bull$-.t

Jack Tarlin
06-17-2009, 13:58
Oh, but calling people "scumbags" or screaming "F*** Y**!!" helps the website somehow??

Too funny. :D

Seriously tho, it's great for folks to ask questions here and to say they're really interested in how these places actually run.

But maybe some of these folks should refrain from calling other people scumbags or extortionists until they DO know how these places actually operate.

Sorry you think I haven't helped on this thread here, JAK, but the tone and language of many of your own comments weren't exactly a joy to read either.

Just saying.

DAJA
06-17-2009, 14:00
You are going to keep running this on and on, somehow trying to make good natured hostel owners who provide services at thier exspense comparable to a customer who receives the services but does't pay. One is a giver, the other is a taker. You are a phoney person. In an earlier post I alost say a spot of hope as you discribed yourself as a green thinking person with good attentions. The comments about hitting me wiith a baseball in my head kind of give you away as being the *&^$@"{)( you are. Ya, I'm up for the challenge

Phoney? I speak my mind and will tell you to your face exactly what I think, whether it is popular or not.... How is that phoney...

And again it was not a threat in any way, just a simple example to prove a point... I am in no way a violent person and was not in any way threatening you... Sorry if you took it that way...

The point here is that if a hiker is a dirtbag for not paying, even if they absolutely cannot afford to pay, then perhaps they shouldn't be hiking the trail and should be focusing on some endevour that puts money in their pocket. But at the same time, if excepting "voluntary" donations is the only method for a hostel to stay in business, perhaps they too should seek a new endevour that legitimitely pays the bills... One's screwing over a hostel operator while the other is screwing over his community.... It's a double standard...

Now I gotta hit the road for the next leg of the Phish tour and then put some miles in on the AT for a few days, try and get me some credibility... LOL:rolleyes:

mister krabs
06-17-2009, 14:02
Wow, a lot of bother over semantics! Personally I never fail to pay when I use services near the trail and I always clean up after myself. However, I really dislike the ambiguity that "donations accepted" entails.

If you're gonna offer a service out of the goodness of your heart to your beloved hikers, then why the hell are you wanting donations? If it becomes too much for you, limit it!

If you're trying to operate a business or make a few bucks on the side, then for gods sake charge me up front, don't ask for donations. We all know what that's all about!

For the above reason, I go to Laural Fork rather than Kincora, for instance. They have the services I want and they ask me to pay up front for services I use. It's a fair deal, though I would prefer a motel in all cases.

Disclaimer - I know there are hikers who can't afford to pay sometimes, they should stay in the woods or better yet, get a job and make some money before you hike. Nothings free in this world. In addition, I am not a thru-hiker, though I did hike 1400 or so miles in 2000 and I stayed at the HIE in Erwin.

THIS is the most sensible thing I've read here.

Alligator
06-17-2009, 14:02
OK folks, dial it back a notch and keep the name-calling out of it. Take a breather if you can't. It can be a high-spirited discussion without it being a mean-spirited one.

JAK
06-17-2009, 14:02
People who don't pay for services rendered by using their cash or labor wind up paying by being characterized as a bad hostel guest.

See? There really Ain't No Such Thing as a Free Lunch.This is exactly why I wouldn't want to stay anywhere where the terms were not stated clearly in advance. It leaves too much room for shake down operations. Doesn't paint a pretty picture of the AT. One might say, grow up, you just have to look out for yourself. Well, in my own town that is fine, its a level playing field. When travelling it is different. When travelling you have to be cautious. All the slander on this web site of this hiker or that hiker does not paint a pretty picture. On one hand, yeah probably alot of cheapskates. One the other hand, it also smacks of something else. Sorry, but I just don't trust you guys.