Questions about yo-yoing thruhikers...

[minnesotasmith]

I hear references to yo-yoing, but rarely in my reading so far on this forum (and related ones) have I seen much hard or detailed information on yo-yoing thru-hikers. Some questions I have about such AT hikers:

1) How many have done this as far as is known?

2) How do yo-yoers generally differ from thru-hikers who make it from Springer to Katahdin all right, but either say "That's quite enough of the AT for now!", or wait years to go back and thru-hike again? (Age, gear, money, gender, personal background, you name it)

3) How much faster is the typical return journey for yo-yoers than the first leg took?

4) Are there any books or online trail journals about any yo-yo thru-hikes? (The most important question from my POV)

5) Around what time-frame do thru-hikers that are at least considering the idea of yo-yoing in advance of starting the AT usually hit the trail at Springer? (They DO mostly do NOBOs just as regular thru-hikers, right?)

[hungryhowie]

I hear references to yo-yoing, but rarely in my reading so far on this forum (and related ones) have I seen much hard or detailed information on yo-yoing thru-hikers. Some questions I have about such AT hikers:

1) How many have done this as far as is known?

2) How do yo-yoers generally differ from thru-hikers who make it from Springer to Katahdin all right, but either say "That's quite enough of the AT for now!", or wait years to go back and thru-hike again? (Age, gear, money, gender, personal background, you name it)

3) How much faster is the typical return journey for yo-yoers than the first leg took?

4) Are there any books or online trail journals about any yo-yo thru-hikes? (The most important question from my POV)

5) Around what time-frame do thru-hikers that are at least considering the idea of yo-yoing in advance of starting the AT usually hit the trail at Springer? (They DO mostly do NOBOs just as regular thru-hikers, right?)

I've never done a yo-yo, but if I had had the money at the time, I would have turned around on Katahdin and started back towards Springer for sure. Not too many people have done yoyos (comparitively speaking) and I knew of only one person who did one (or at least was on his way to completing one) in 2000. I met Albatross on the second half of his YoYo on top of Baldpate in Maine. He started on Springer in mid February (I think) with the intention of doing a Yoyo. I don't think he moved much (if any) faster than the rest of the thru-hikers, just relied on the early start on Springer and constant momentum to carry him through. As long as you are out of the Whites (southbound) by early-mid October you should be fairly home-free (as far as precarious weather in conjunction with precarious terrain goes).

As far as speed, I would imagine that by the time a Yoyoer reaches Vermont on the southbound return trip that he/she would be able to hike as far and as fast as he/she would like during a day. Afterall, he/she just completed the most difficult terrain on the AT twice...back to back.

-Howie

[minnesotasmith]

Would you say, then, that a sub-100 day thru-hike would be a reasonable expectation for most sub-55-YO thruhikers? This of course presumes reasonable pack weight, no serious injuries/illnesses, down to reasonable body weight by Katahdin, etc. It is reassuring that even a February start would have plenty of time for completion of a yo-yo, if someone just stayed at it (avoided becoming addicted to zero days in towns with the buffets, soft beds, heat/AC, hot showers, laundromats, etc., etc.) It would seem kind of weird to be in the middle of a thru-hike and to try to take in a theater movie while lugging a pack, if they'd even let me in with one, so I figure that sort of thing would be out for me for the duration of the hike.

My understanding on etiquette WRT other hikers is that it would be in bad taste to announce that you are doing/contemplating a yo-yo until you have actually finished a leg of the Trail (made it to Katahdin and have turned around) and are actually starting to hike south. The idea would be, I guess, that it would be a so-far unsubstantiated brag, and would have the potential to be discouraging for single-leg thru-hikers to listen to (most of whom never finish, after all). Your take here, please?

[Pencil Pusher]

I don't think it's in poor taste to tell others you plan on doing a yo-yo, whether that be here or on the trail. My own thoughts are you must be a dedicated hombre to do a yo-yo, I couldn't hack that. Heck, if you think you could do a yo-yo running backwards with one hand tied behind your back, in 60 days, don't let what others say or think discourage you. Believe in yourself and conquer the world.

[hungryhowie]

I don't think that announcing your intentions to do a yoyo is in bad taste. After all, most of your buddies on the trail will call themselves thruhikers...even though they've not completed a thruhike.

Not knowing you, I can't tell you if a sub-100-day thruhike would be feasible for you. It would be feasible for me...but it would be extremely challenging (I'm 21 and in good shape). I think your best bet is to begin reasonably early so that you know you'll be back on the south side of the Whites by early-mid october. Even at a standard six-month pace, starting in early February would pretty much guarantee this. If you're limited on time, money, or just want to hike it at a faster than normal pace, a 5 month pace (14 mpd) is absolutely attainable and would have you starting a month later at the beginning of March. Even a 4 month pace (17.5mpd) should be attainable for many/most hikers. A three month pace (23.5 mpd), however, is pushing it for most hikers, and would be even less attainable (I think) over two back-to-back thruhikes than over one (because of the massive amount of endurance required to keep going)

If you have a driving desire to do a yoyo and time is the only constraint (which is what I'm gathering from the 100-day question), however, you'll have to make it work if the desire to Yoyo is stronger than that to thruhike. There have been many sub-100-day thruhikes in the past decade (and before even), and there are things that you can do to ready yourself for such a rigorous physical venture You mentioned packweight and limiting times in town. These aspects, as well as before-hike training, proper nutrition, sleep, and efficient resupply will make your life (and hike) easier to accomplish

-Howie

[Youngblood]

Like Howie, I also haven't done a yoyo, but I believe that the most critical timing would be as Howie suggests, what time of year you are in Maine and New Hampshire... you don't want to get to Maine too early in the year and you don't want to leave Maine too late in the year. Obviously, the faster you hike, the more leeway you have in planning when to start from Springer. Nobo'ers want to get to Katahdin by the end of September and sobo'ers want to leave Katahdin after the first of June. I would suggest that you simply plan a yoyo as a nobo hike followed by a sobo hike. I wouldn't worry too much about the second leg being quicker, I would worry more about (1) not hiking too fast and wearing myself down (especially on the first leg) and (2) maintaining proper nutrition so you are physically able to hike for that long. I have heard the statement that "the only thing that keeps a nobo thru-hiker from starving to death is reaching Katahdin". And while to some degree it is a comical way to describe the tremendous weight loss that some thru's experience, there will be more than a grain of truth to it if you don't figure out how to maintain proper/sufficent nutrition for a yoyo.

I guess a fundamental question is "How long can you take to hike a yoyo and stay out of winter conditions"?

Youngblood

[Hammock Hanger]

I hiked some with the Barefoot Sisters who considered their hike a yo-yo hike. They did not turn around on Springer and head right back to Maine. They did spends a little time in GA. Mainely to relax alittle and let some severe weather pass. They did hike to Georgia and then hike back home to Maine. Sue/HH

[minnesotasmith]

First, I fully intend to leave very early NOBO from Amicalola for my thru-hike that I plan to start in early 2006 (that may turn into a yo-yo if my time, body, and funds allow). The beginning of February would be the latest, and frankly I'd prefer to make it more like Jan. 1. Yes, I know that I will have to deal with snow and cold. I prefer them to bugs and heat, given the choice, plus I am guessing that for a month or two I won't have much competition for shelter space. Too, I know I should plan to haul snowshoes, a thicker sleeping bag, crampons, etc., etc., trading them out for summer stuff sometime in VA. As I just spent the last decade in WI/MN (doing a fair amount of skiing and going for long walks during winters there), I figure I'm no slouch on gauging cold temps, so that part should not be an issue.

Going NOBO, I have already had it hammered into my head that whatever I do, DON'T try overly hard for high-mileage days the first month or so, no matter how well I have trained before starting my thru. Trying for hi-mile days early on is a good way to blow reaching Katahdin even once; I understand that. Besides, if I left Amicalola around Xmas, say, and managed to haul tail from the very beginning (not that I think it's likely I'd manage that, but just supposing), my understanding is I'd have too high a chance of hitting unreasonable/unsafe snow/ice conditions due to moving north of NC before spring.

If anything, presuming I tried a yo-yo, summer heat in the mid-states on the second leg would seem likely to be the biggest weather issue (after dealing with winter conditions for the first couple of months). I don't think it's unreasonable to figure I'd hit Katahdin before June (given my start date/ probable fitness level/pack weight/etc.), so it seems I'd likely have to deal with hiking during part of July/August between New England and N. Virginia. Thoughts from people who've done a successful thru-hike, especially a SOBO with a May start, please?

On the food/nutrition/weight issue... I weigh considerably over what I should (not that that has ever stopped me hiking, or even running, in the past), and if I lose 50 lbs. on the trail, no biggee for me, as long as it is mainly fat loss with not much muscle weight loss. I am also more aware of nutritional issues than most people I know; I am one of those people who gives my parents/sibling/whomever I am involved with Hades for buying white bread, white rice, cooking oils other than olive oil, nonoily fish (omegas are your friend IMO), bacon, degermed corn meal, fish sticks, potatos, celery, lettuce, whole milk, pork rinds, candy bars, Vienna Sausage, and other foods I consider dumb purchases at any price. Beverage-wise, I normally drink almost nothing but water, skim milk, decaf green tea, tomato juice, fruit juices such as grape/pineapple/orange juices, homemade lemonade, and smoothies from blueberries/blackberries/etc. I drink alcoholic stuff only about 3x a year, so dropping booze, caffeine, and soft drinks while doing my thru- won't be any adjustment for me. Right now I'm figuring on buying a freeze-drier so I can make packet meals of bean & brown-rice casseroles (just a touch of lean meat to complete the amino acids), eggplant casseroles, spinach dishes, and such, plus regular stuff like whole-wheat spaghetti, nonroasted unsalted shelled nuts, peanut butter without extra fat (usually it's soybean oil) or sugar added, noninstant oatmeal with molasses added (calcium and biotin), whole-grain corn products, whole-grain hot cereals that are mixes of multiple grains, dried chopped cuttlefish, several small cans of sardines per resupply, decaffeinated green tea bags, powders of various vegetables (like Walton Foods sells), a decent amount of olive oil, powdered milk, a protein supplement powder, etc., etc. I will then have organized stored stuff ready to have someone at home mail me at various points on the Trail on request. I do NOT plan to have the boxes all sealed up ahead of time, so that I can request switchouts/tailoring of various stuff as I learn from experience as my thru progresses. I also plan to consume LOTS of broccoli, canned asparagus, canned salmon, pickled herring, skim milk, citrus fruits, tomatoes, etc., whenever I do hit towns, as well as having as many of these as practicable in transportable forms for consuming while hiking, FWIW. I'd love to often have lobster while in towns, but suspect that funding (BTW, seaweed is high in minerals and protein, and does not have squat for weight since it is practically bone-dry, so I'll probably take some; the Japanese sushi-grade black kind is the best IMO.)

BTW, if anyone knows of a good source for BIOLOGIC-ORIGIN vitamins supplements, I am looking for one bigtime. (I mean that the vitamin C comes from rose hips, the E comes from wheat germ, many of the Bs come from yeast, etc., etc.) I have ZERO interest in someone's synthetic-origin supplements that "they're sure are just as good, and have always worked for them". I am a scientist by training with no little amount of chemistry background, and I am well aware that the definitions for synthetic vitamins are too lenient, that they all too often are NOT exactly the same thing as the versions are that are found in food. I do not wish to debate this issue here, only to ask for information if anyone knows a possible source for something I perceive that would help me on my thru-hike.

So, anyway, to finish up the weight issue WRT doing a thru-hike (and possibly going beyond it), if I understand the situation correctly, most purist male thru-hikers have trouble keeping enough weight on by Katahdin, presuming they were taking fewer zero-days than average, and got into high-mileage to any extent. That would mean that most thru-hikers are seriously into ketosis (are catabolizing their muscle, with their body fats much above about 5% or so of body mass often already gone by then) by Katahdin. However, since I expect to still have some excess weight that it wouldn't hurt me any to drop when I hit the Trail, no matter how much I manage to train beforehand, perhaps that won't be as big a deal for me as for most. Too, judging from the people I've talked to during my life, most people really don't know very much hard information about nutrition, and surely this is at least partially true for many thru-hikers, so this issue will presumably affect such hikers' experiences a bit differently than mine likely will.

Anyway, everyone's thoughts are welcome here.

[Pencil Pusher]

If you're looking at 100 day legs, why start so early? Get lean and mean going into it and you won't lose 50 pounds. Use the 'search' function here and you may see answers to some of your questions, there's tons of info in old threads. What the hell is 'biologic'?

[minnesotasmith]

1) I want to start early to minimize the bugs/heat on at least part of my hike, and to make the hike partly a winter experience, which I am inclined to see as more interesting and a bit more unique. Having lived in the North for years, I seem to be noticeably less sensitive to cold (but more so to heat) than most people I know that have lived all their lives in the Deep South.

While I think there is a fair chance I can do a SOBO-leg of a yo-yo in under 100 days (certainly under 120 days), I am substantially less optimistic that I have any chance of doing so on the first leg (NOBO), for two reasons. One, I get the impression that all but near-world-class hikers substantially improve their conditioning (and thus their average daily mileage, taking into account terrain variations between states) as they get a month or two into their hikes, no matter how much they train before starting their hikes. Two, I will be fighting winter conditions (mainly occasional deep snow)(plus higher pack weight with winter-oriented gear) some of the time for a month or two going NOBO, whereas there would be none of that for me on the SOBO leg of a yo-yo thruhike, or I miss my bet about how it would most likely go for me.

2) I used the term "biologic-origin" to refer to vitamins in a vitamin pill that were processed out of something that had actually been alive and had actually originally contained them, such as vitamin C being derived from rose hips that originally had the vitamin C in it. This is in contrast to synthetic-origin vitamins, which are NOT contained in the raw materials used to make them.

[hungryhowie]

After reading your plans I've altered my thoughts. You say that you want to avoid bugs and heat, correct? Here, in my experience, would be the best option for that. I would start smack on March 1. Hiking at a standard 6 month pace, you would hit the "heat" somewhere in mid-north VA, the bad bugs in southern New England (any earlier of a start and you'll have black-fly problems all throughout New England), and reach Katahdin on September 1. By mid August it will have begun cooling off again and you'll have just enough time to reach the southern end of the Whites (with a 1-2 week buffer) before the immenent snows come.

Reasons to start March 1: You say that you're fine with cold and bringing extra gear, but going so, especially during potentially icy conditions, will do nothing but increase your chances of injury. I think Bill Bryson said it well: "Hiking the AT is one thing, hiking it with a wordrobe on your back is something else entirely."..or something to that effect. Adding extra weight in equipment will slow you down, increase the risk of stress fractures, trips, falls, strains, sprains, etc, etc. Icy trail conditions will only make it worse. While you may be familiar with winter conditions up north, "winter" in the southern appalachians is far more fickle. I doubt you would use snowshoes except perhaps in the Smokies depending on the year. Crampons would be unnecessary for the vast majority of the time...but you can never tell until that newest storm blows over. The Spring side of winter in the South is nothing more than tropical with frequent misplaced winter storms that create a mix of conditions that can include anything and everything. Very nasty thing. another reason not to start so early is that fact that Katahdin rarely opens before June 1. It has opened as early as May 15...but don't place your hopes on that date. There are signs throughout Vermont that ask that you not hike the trails in April and May, two months that they refer to as "Mud Season." Believe me, you DON'T want to be on the northern AT during Mud Season in New England. Starting later (March) would allow you the benefit of hiking in the best weather conditions and trail conditions and seeing New England in it's best season...autumn.

-Howie

[minnesotasmith]

If I leave Amicalola March 1 as you are suggesting, and take 6 months for a NOBO thru-hike, wouldn't that kill the possibility of a yo-yo from the very beginning? I do want to go into this thing with at least the chance of being able to do a yo-yo, if my body cooperates. Physically, I can handle carrying packweight and cold temps well; it's heat, speed, and uphills (and secondarily stamina) that seem likely to present the greatest physical challenges for me. As far as what constitutes "heat", IMO in GA March can already have that. Frankly, if I could get to NY by June, I'd like that a lot.

I agree that the spring thaw is a nuisance; every year in MN/WI, there is a period of about 3 weeks that any bare remotely flat ground is a mudpie. However, the trails are surely halfway well-drained, aren't they? Plus, there isn't anywhere that the AT actually is closed during part of the year (excepting only Baxter Park), right? I would rather face 3 weeks of mud than 2 - 3 months of avoidable heat (latter defined as anything much over high 70s). I know that thru-hiking the AT means that I will have lots of time that temps will be higher than that, and I accept that a part of the price of getting to try the AT; nothing says I can't try to minimize the heat part through a little advance planning, though.

P.S.: About the fall foliage in New England... I have seen lots of strong fall colors in MN/WI; there are plenty of deciduous trees there as well, and MN/WI certainly have at least as extreme fall coolness to bring out full coloration. I suspect that this aspect of the hike will simply not be as major a part for me as it would for people who've lived their whole lives in the Deep South, where there is almost no fall color phase by comparison.

[Spirit Walker]

We knew a yo yo hiker in 1992 who reached Katahdin around September 23, turned around and hiked to about Hot Springs, where he spent the winter, then finished the last few hundred miles in March.

However, there is no reason you have to do a six month hike. If you are really committed to doing a yo-yo, then spend less time in towns, spend less time at shelters and it is easy to do a five month or less hike. My hikes were about 5 1/2 months, and I took a lot of time off. One thing that slows people down is hiking shelter to shelter. If you reach a shelter at 2:00 you stop, right? No - you have at least four more hours of hiking time available - but that takes a while for most AT hikers to learn. People who have done other trails before doing the AT often do the trail in four months or so -- because they aren't wasting time at the shelters.

If you start March 1, then you would reach Katahdin in early August, if not before, then you can turn around and finish the trail by New Years. You say you like cold weather hiking - you'll get it at least for the first two months and the last two - and you won't have that much summer heat as you'll be in New England in July and August. You said that you thought Georgia in March was warm - you will be surprised. Remember that you will be high - mountains have their own weather, much cooler than you'll find on the flatlands. You will likely have snow and ice storms even with a March 1 start. We had snow in May in southern Virginia. Even when it does get hot on the trail, most of the time a storm will blow through and cool things off in a few days. I found I just hiked a bit longer on the hot days. Sitting around in a shelter just doesn't appeal when it is really really hot. When you are moving, at least there is a breeze.

One final thought - the biggest thing that kept me from doing a yo-yo hike (besides money, which was in rather short supply) was my knees. By the time I had been through the Whites, my knees were shot. Doing that twice in one year was too painful to consider. It took about three years for my knees to recover - and then I did the AT again and by Virginia they were blown. That may slow you down. It does many of us.

[grizzlyadam]

maybe you could start sobo in august or september (especially if you aren't afraid of some winter weather) and then do the nobo on the tail end, finishing up again at katahdin in early summer.

[minnesotasmith]

NOT at shelters, unless the weather really stinks. Along with minimizing money and time lost in towns, and keeping pack weight low from the beginning, that appears to be a top tactic for someone doing decent miles on a frequent basis.

As far as the weather goes, say I leave Amicalola around January 1, and take about 5 months to get to Katahdin. With the inevitable body/gear shakeout over the first couple of months (no matter my training pre-hike) and fighting winter weather the first 2 - 3 months, that seems a reasonable pace. That still would seem to have me north of Maryland as of July 1. Plus, I figure that heat on the second leg of a yo-yo would be less of an annoyance than on the first, due to acclimitization and inevitable weight loss, so I'd rather set up for heat to be mostly on the second leg.

More of your thoughts, please?

[A-Train]

Start Feb 15th. You'll be at Katahdin on July 15th if you stay moving consistently, Aug 1st the latest, if you get slowed with an injury. If you turn around mid July you'll have 5 whole months to finish before christmas and the new year and before the real cold comes. Most likely if you hike NOBO in 5 months or so you should have no problems doing the second hike in less time. I haven't done one myself or talked to anyone who has, but I assume you can put in considerably faster pace the second time around, especially after hiking maine and nh twice. I'd assume all of this should take 10-11 months. Start feb 1st if you're really worried about keeping pace and weather. I started March 1 and with a consistent pace was able to almost completly avoid the heat and bugs. Go for it!

[hungryhowie]

If I leave Amicalola March 1 as you are suggesting, and take 6 months for a NOBO thru-hike, wouldn't that kill the possibility of a yo-yo from the very beginning?

nope. You didn't read. If you reach Katahdin by September 1, you can turn around, pass through the Whites by mid-October, and then hike through the Autumn and Winter to Georgia. The key here is to get out the Whites by October. This will be the southernmost place that you go above treeline, and they get some nasty weather blowing in after the first week or so of October that doesn't go away.

Starting too early (January and February) will place you in New England too early in the season. You'll run into mud season (during which Vermont's GMC asks you to refrain from hiking since it destroys the trails), black fly season, and the possibility that Katahdin won't be open for you to summit (It rarely opens before June 1 each year and typically closes again by October 15).

I'll reiterate my reasoning. This schedule will, imo, be the best for minimizing your time dealing with bugs and heat. I began my thruhike on March 9, 2000. I began really "feeling the heat" in the Mid-Atlantic states, and by the time I reached VT, NH, and ME the temps were nice again. Also during my hike, I had very few black fly probelms a ran into bad mosquitoes (defined by me as those which will not leave you alone even while hiking) in CT, MA, and southern VT (with the occasional patch in swampy parts of NH and ME). If I had had the money on August 29, 2000, I would have turned around and hiked back to Georgia. It would have been a perfect time to start a southbound hike, especially knowing that I had the traillegs to get me through the Whites and into southern New England by winter set in.

-Howie

[Lone Wolf]

minnesota, your chances of making it to Maine are pretty slim, never mind getting there and returning to Georgia. A yo-yo is ridiculous.

[minnesotasmith]

I know most thru- attempts fail. However, there are lots of mistakes many hikers make that I can avoid, like being smarter with equipment and packweight (yes, this site, Sgt. Rock's site, www.trailjournals.com (http://www.trailjournals.com), and all the books I'm reading will help no small amount with this). Money allowing, I hope to use the shoe fitter mentioned in the book "Advanced Backpacking" to get my footwear exactly right. I know not to head north too fast for the first month or so while my body adjusts. Too, I will do no little amount of preparatory training before I start a thru. I ran competively in high school, up to a 10-miler and a 30K, and did all right; physical exertion and I are not strangers. Rain doesn't bother me that much; certainly, cold doesn't. I'm one of those people who can fish in the rain all day, FWIW. I don't seem to get altitude sickness, either; I've hiked almost all day with a heavier pack than I'd take on the AT at over 8000' with no problems.

I've been broke enough times in my life that living on unappetizing food won't be a morale-killing novelty, should that be how it goes for me. I know more about nutrition than most other people, probably including most hikers, judging from the trail journals about all the Ramen they ate on the AT (white flour and palm oil). I've already hiked a 63-mile section of the AT in NC some years ago, and hiked the Approach Trail less than a month ago, and found neither to be as bad as other people had told me they were.

I don't see that anything other than a money shortage (preventable), a family emergency (I have no children, though my parents are old), or a body part going out or other injury would keep me from at least finishing a thru.

Your reasoning, please?

[Pencil Pusher]

Your reasoning, please?
It's based on statistics but doesn't mean squat.

[steve hiker]

Your reasoning, please?
You are ideal bear food.

[minnesotasmith]

thru-hike upon, then I agree. Just my doing serious research before going (at this site and in books) and my ability to put up with rain and cold have to give me a considerable boost in chances over most hikers who attempt a thru. Warren Doyle's groups have far over the usual 10% success rate, and I (reasonably IMO) figure I can be comparably as prepared before starting out.

[gravityman]

I know most thru- attempts fail. However, there are lots of mistakes many hikers make that I can avoid, like being smarter with equipment and packweight (yes, this site, Sgt. Rock's site, www.trailjournals.com (http://www.trailjournals.com), and all the books I'm reading will help no small amount with this). Money allowing, I hope to use the shoe fitter mentioned in the book "Advanced Backpacking" to get my footwear exactly right. I know not to head north too fast for the first month or so while my body adjusts. Too, I will do no little amount of preparatory training before I start a thru. I ran competively in high school, up to a 10-miler and a 30K, and did all right; physical exertion and I are not strangers. Rain doesn't bother me that much; certainly, cold doesn't. I'm one of those people who can fish in the rain all day, FWIW. I don't seem to get altitude sickness, either; I've hiked almost all day with a heavier pack than I'd take on the AT at over 8000' with no problems.

I've been broke enough times in my life that living on unappetizing food won't be a morale-killing novelty, should that be how it goes for me. I know more about nutrition than most other people, probably including most hikers, judging from the trail journals about all the Ramen they ate on the AT (white flour and palm oil). I've already hiked a 63-mile section of the AT in NC some years ago, and hiked the Approach Trail less than a month ago, and found neither to be as bad as other people had told me they were.

I don't see that anything other than a money shortage (preventable), a family emergency (I have no children, though my parents are old), or a body part going out or other injury would keep me from at least finishing a thru.

Your reasoning, please?


I don't know LW reasoning, but here's mine :

I think you are putting the horse before the cart. Let me just say this - your preparation is not unique. There are plenty of people here that have done what you have done for preparation and still have not made it (myself and my wife for one), and I think that I might see a bit of what we did wrong showing up in your posts.

The most important thing: Don't set complicated rules for yourself! We were all about avoiding the crowds, not staying in shelters, starting slow, but building up the mileage, not staying in towns too long, etc etc etc. Well, those where part of the things that caused us not to make it. You need to learn to relax, go with the flow, and not set rules and schedules in my opinion, if you want to make it. Otherwise you push yourself past shelters, when you really would rather have stayed, you get out of town too fast, despite knowing that you really needed a longer stay to refresh yourself, and you will put a goal before yourself (a yo-yo) that might just be too much. You might get to NC, say "Wow, I'm having a hard time. I can't imagine getting all the way to Maine, turning around, and doing this again. And, if I can't do that, I've failed, so I might as well quit now." Don't do that to yourself. Put one, simple goal in front of yourself (I will walk from GA to ME) and nothing else as far as how fast, how far, how long. You can turn an amazing accomplishment (I MADE IT TO KATAHDIN!) to failure (I couldn't do a Yo-Yo.)

If you want to do a yo-yo, you will know at the end. Don't try to shape too much of your hike before you leave. Be ready to adapt. Don't start too early.

Just a FYI - the reason we got off the trail was because my wife got Neuroma's in her feet. The main reason that happened was because I had read too much online about how one SHOULD do a successful thruhike (stay out of towns, camp away from shelters, do it in 6 months) and couldn't adapt fast enough. We should have spent more time in town, figured out what was wrong with her feet, and we could have kept moving. Instead, we just kept pushing and pushing, and didn't want to deal with what was going on. Stupid, really.

Gravity Man

[minnesotasmith]

But, one question for you. Why did you leave the Trail when your wife could no longer hike? If I took a wife or a girlfriend along on my thru-hike attempt, and they had to stop while I was still able to keep going, I would press on after making sure she had transportation back to the World lined up. As women are considerably more prone to stress fractures, twisted ankles, etc., etc, than men are, that has to be figured in IMO for any guy who tries taking a female along.

[A-Train]

Great Post Gravity Man,

I found it is most important to stay flexible and open to what the trail has to offer. Roll with the punches as they say. If you need to, take a short day due to rain, or a long day cause you feel good, or a day off cause your feet need it, or a week without town cause your head needs it. You can't try to control or change the trail, simply enjoy what it dishes out. Everyone has different experiences and a different hike in some ways.

I witnessed lots of people who had a pre-determined philosophy in the early going about staying out of towns, doing long days, doing short days etc. While this isn't a bad thing i saw it limit people once they felt guilty about breaking their routine. I met a guy at Low Gap, on his 3rd night and my 5th. He had met a trail runner the first day who told him to not hang with anyone and hike 20 miles a day. So he intended to do 15+ and go all the way to the NOC without a resupply/town stop. One laughter, jokin-filled night later with me and a couple other hikers he decides maybe going into Hiawasee wouldnt be the worst thing in the world. Needless to say we hiked on and off together until Glencliff New Hampshire. When I met the guy I thought I'd never see him again, but hey, things change.

You are doing the right things though. Don't let anyone tell you you can't make it. If you want it bad enough, most likely you'll make it. Doing research is good. The ones who think "this would be cool" but don't know much are often the ones who lose interest and quit. Though, as Lone Wolf is getting at, you never know who will get hurt, lose interest etc.

[Hammock Hanger]

But, one question for you. Why did you leave the Trail when your wife could no longer hike? If I took a wife or a girlfriend along on my thru-hike attempt, and they had to stop while I was still able to keep going, I would press on after making sure she had transportation back to the World lined up. As women are considerably more prone to stress fractures, twisted ankles, etc., etc, than men are, that has to be figured in IMO for any guy who tries taking a female along.

--------------:-? -----------------:confused: ------------------:bse

[gravityman]

But, one question for you. Why did you leave the Trail when your wife could no longer hike? If I took a wife or a girlfriend along on my thru-hike attempt, and they had to stop while I was still able to keep going, I would press on after making sure she had transportation back to the World lined up. As women are considerably more prone to stress fractures, twisted ankles, etc., etc, than men are, that has to be figured in IMO for any guy who tries taking a female along.

Yeah, I think that HH said it all, but I still feel that I need to answer.

I didn't "take my wife along." We are a team, we do all our outdoor sports together. If one of us is hurt, we are both hurt. It's the nature of our relationship. She would have had an impossible time without me, we didn't have a "home" to go to, and she would have been exceptionally depressed. I would haven't made it much farther from depression without her either. Instead, we got off, we paddled the Allagash Wilderness waterway for 10 days (taking side trips), spend a week camping on Martha's Vineyard, visited her family and mine, and had a lot of fun for the rest of the summer before my job started.

To be completely honest, she hadn't heard for the AT before me. I knew that I wanted to hike it after I finished grad school. When we decided to hike together, we KNEW it would be together. We weren't married yet, I knew she was the one for me, and the trail (and leaving the trail) only confirmed it even more.

We made the right decision to leave the trail together.

We are starting from Springer in March 05. We have fixed the foot problem, we are REALLY anxious to try again, and this time we have a MUCH better understanding for what we need to do to keep ourselves moving. And trust me, I am not taking her "along with me." She now wants this more than I do, I think... Which is surprising considering how much pain she went through on the trail, but it's the truth. She sniffles (okay, more like cries) everytime we read a book or watch a movie and the person gets to Katadin.

Anyway, good luck with your planning! I know 06 seems forever away, but it will be here before you know it!

Gravity Man

[minnesotasmith]

I have to applaud your loyalty and admire the depth of your love with your wife. Nonetheless, from my POV, that still seems as if you have an avoidable hindrance to the odds you can complete a thru-hike. To my mind, it seems that the people who make it to Katahdin make a point of removing all possible obstacles to their making it to Katahdin, so your loyalty carries a very real price. If you figure 1/10 of people make it all the way, and you will only hike the whole thing if both of you can, mathematically that's (0.1 * 0.1) = 1/100th of a chance you can make it to Baxter. Obviously, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but not completely so.

Out of curiosity, what would the two of you do if she gets injured again, or just you get hurt, while she remains capable of continuing?

[gravityman]

I have to applaud your loyalty and admire the depth of your love with your wife. Nonetheless, from my POV, that still seems as if you have an avoidable hindrance to the odds you can complete a thru-hike. To my mind, it seems that the people who make it to Katahdin make a point of removing all possible obstacles to their making it to Katahdin, so your loyalty carries a very real price. If you figure 1/10 of people make it all the way, and you will only hike the whole thing if both of you can, mathematically that's (0.1 * 0.1) = 1/100th of a chance you can make it to Baxter. Obviously, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but not completely so.

Out of curiosity, what would the two of you do if she gets injured again, or just you get hurt, while she remains capable of continuing?

As everyone knows, it's not the destination, it's the journey. If we don't make it, we don't make it. But we are in fact stronger together than apart. We never have to deal with the loneliness that others do. That is a major advantage for us.

I am taking 8 months off from work to do the hike, my wife will leave her job. We will have over 7 1/2 months starting at the beginning of March. We are hoping that if either of us gets injured, this will give us to heal and still finish. But we will just have to roll with the punchs. I expect that if one of us is out of the game, we both are, but we'll see how we feel when we are out there. You never can tell. But if experience is any indicator, we'll leave the trail together. I can't imagine only one of us wanting to stay on. We've talked about it, and we both think that we would both leave the trail, but in the end, we aren't going to constrict ourselves with a predetermined decision. We'll do what feels right.

Gravity Man

[Hammock Hanger]

Yeah, I think that HH said it all, but I still feel that I need to answer.

I didn't "take my wife along." We are a team, we do all our outdoor sports together. If one of us is hurt, we are both hurt. It's the nature of our relationship. She would have had an impossible time without me, we didn't have a "home" to go to, and she would have been exceptionally depressed. I would haven't made it much farther from depression without her either. Instead, we got off, we paddled the Allagash Wilderness waterway for 10 days (taking side trips), spend a week camping on Martha's Vineyard, visited her family and mine, and had a lot of fun for the rest of the summer before my job started.

To be completely honest, she hadn't heard for the AT before me. I knew that I wanted to hike it after I finished grad school. When we decided to hike together, we KNEW it would be together. We weren't married yet, I knew she was the one for me, and the trail (and leaving the trail) only confirmed it even more.

We made the right decision to leave the trail together.

We are starting from Springer in March 05. We have fixed the foot problem, we are REALLY anxious to try again, and this time we have a MUCH better understanding for what we need to do to keep ourselves moving. And trust me, I am not taking her "along with me." She now wants this more than I do, I think... Which is surprising considering how much pain she went through on the trail, but it's the truth. She sniffles (okay, more like cries) everytime we read a book or watch a movie and the person gets to Katadin.

Anyway, good luck with your planning! I know 06 seems forever away, but it will be here before you know it!

Gravity Man
If you weren't HAPPILY maried and I wasn't HAPPILY married I think I'd have to check you out. You are the kid of man every woman dreams of. Of course on the other side of the coin I leave my husband every summer (which is very difficult and only doable because we have such a strong bond). I think and talk to him daily in my head. I talk to him every night in my hammock knowing he can sense it back home. It is nice that you and your wife have such a bond and can share this together. Good for you. Sue/HH:clap

[Youngblood]

Gravityman has his head screwed on right, there are more important things than reaching Katahdin.

Youngblood

[leeki pole]

Well said, Gravity Man and HH.

[Spirit Walker]

A thruhike is six months of your life; a marriage is, hopefully, a lifetime. Which is more important?

It is a difficult decision, what to do if your partner has to leave the trail. Some continue their hikes alone while the injured partner goes home, and both are happy with that decision. Some continue their hikes, and the partner who doesn't hike gets angry and resentful about it. In some cases, they both find an alternate way of spending the summer which both can enjoy, and they can always attempt another thruhike another year. In many cases, the injured partner acts as trail support for their hiking partner, meeting them frequently along the trail. It isn't a fun role, from what I've seen. But it is a way of staying on the trail, while not being able to hike. I know one couple that parked the wife with the broken leg in a hostel in Maine while he hiked that state, then they both continued hiking southbound when her leg healed and they both did another complete thruhike the following year. In some cases it may depend on what kind of life was left behind. For those of us who totally disrupt our lives to do a thruhike, making one person go home alone to find a place to live, move, find a new job, etc. - while the other is having a fine time playing in the woods, living the dream that both used to share - well that just isn't the way you treat someone you love.

We have talked about what we would do in like circumstances and, bottom line, the marriage comes first. But that gets difficult, because we would both want the other to be happy, which means allowing the fit hiker to keep on hiking, if they really feel the need to do so. So we would probably do the trail support option. Or we would just wander the west in the truck for six months or so. There are always alternatives.

[minnesotasmith]

However, it is the same POV that people who never even try to do a thru-hike have. Again, hikers who manage to complete a thru- seem from my reading to generally have in common a determination not to let anything get in the way of finishing a thru. Some food for thought IMO...

[gravityman]

However, it is the same POV that people who never even try to do a thru-hike have. Again, hikers who manage to complete a thru- seem from my reading to generally have in common a determination not to let anything get in the way of finishing a thru. Some food for thought IMO...

I disagree with this... I think a vast majority said to themselves "If I make it, I make it. I just want to have fun." Sure, there are a few who "tough it out" but I think that most want to be out there because they love it, not because they have "determination not to let anything get in the way of finishing." They finish because they loved the process.

All of us are "Peak Experience" seekers - aiming for a goal, a final experience to sum up a long journey, but it's the journey, not the end of the journey.

Gravity man

[DangerPea]

Gravity man, I always knew I was a lucky woman to snag you, so I perhaps I should declare it for all to hear/read!!!! :D

Although I realize that this thread has gotten a little off topic with regard to the original question about a Yo Yo, I do feel like I have to chime in a little. It is true that I had never even heard about the AT when Gravity Man told me about it & asked me to hike with him. I had always enjoyed hiking, backpacking and the out doors. In fact, it is part of what makes our bond so strong: that we are both so passionate about the same things & being able to share them is an amazing gift of fate. So, at first when I heard about the AT I was ambivalent. Hiking from GA->ME sounded amazing, and having that opportunity to test our stuff was as amazing an opportunity too.

We planed and read and reserached and prepared. We did shakedown hikes. We spent hours preparing mail drops (WASTE OF TIME!) and planning out detailed spreadsheets of our agenda (which, was another issue entirely when it came to how our hike went, let me jus tsay again: WASTE OF TIME!). We had every zero day planned. We had every town stop & the way that we were going to progress the miles planned. We put serious effort and thought into this hike.

I honestly don't remember talking about what we would do if one of us got sick, injured or something else that required getting off trail. Gravity might remember differently, but I can't recall a converstaion about that.

Anyway, by the time we got to Springer we were both so into it. We were PSYCHED! Unfortunately things started off badly for me. Gravity mentioned that the ultimate reason for getting off trail was the nueromas that I got. But, the hike started off tough for me. I got a horrible cold the second or third day on trail. Then somewhere around the Blueberry patch I got giardia or crypto or something pretty awful. The whole rest of the time we were on trail I couldn't hold anything in me for more than a few minutes. So, I had to make 'pit' stops about 10 times a day. We hiked with me like that until Kincora in TN when we finally went to a clinic. By then what ever i had had wrecked havoc on my GI system, and despite the Flagelle that they prescribed, I just couldn't get things right again (it took over two years for things to start working normally again, despite many visits to specialists).

Anyway, so, I was hiking, wanted to eat, but couldn't absorb any nutrients. Then, the feet started hurting. By Damascus they were really bad. They just got worse. We have discovered since then tha tI had nueromas & have gone to serious lengths to fix & prevent this from happening again.

I thought "c'mon Tuffy--you're hiking every day, you're feet are going to hurt you, don't be a pansy!!" But, even after resting, for many days (we took something like 10 days off with friends in PA) they still hurt just as bad. It was agonizing. We agonized over the decision to leave. We skipped Pa thinking that missing the rocks would help. We did a little bit of NJ. But, in the end, I was in tears or close to it all day, every day. Gravity was hurting as badly as I was seeing me like that. And, I know I wasn't just being a pansy. Oh, PS Minnesota, not sure where you get that women are naturally more prone to injury. But, I have to agree with both HH and Gravity on their sentiments! This kind of thing can happen to anyone, even a big strong Man....:rolleyes:

Now, you can imagine how difficult this was for Gravity. How torn he was. I wanted him to acheive his dream of getting to Katahdin. But deciding to hike together represented a huge decision & comimttment for both of us. I wasn't along on his journey. This was now OUR journey. It was not as simple as I could just go home, or be support for him while he hiked. Before I knew anything about the AT, or even met Gravity, I planned to move to Europe for at least a year after colledge. That was my wanderlust. Of course things changed & so did my dreams and goals when I met Gravity. But, to have just gotten off alone, and played support? As much as I love Gravity, that wasn't something that I could do. I gave up what was a lot at the time to hike, and for love. But, I couldn't have happily made that committment if Gravity hadn't also made a committment to me. That was just our circumstance...

For us, ultimately, the trail ended up being more about us less than it was about getting to Katahdin. I guess that is part of how a couples thru hike can differ from a solo.

We learned SO MUCH on that hike. I am so grateful for all of those tears and all that pain because without it I wouldn't be who I am and where I am. Also, that test was more proof than anyone can ask that we were meant for each other. That experience bonded, fused us together.

Gravity talked about hiking for a long time after we got off. It was so difficult for him, and for me, as you can imagine. It took a long time for me to sort out my feelings about the hike, and about getting off. I didn't know if I could go through that again with another thru hike.

But, it is amazing how that has changed. I am definitely FAR stronger than I have ever been. We trained for and ran a marathon in May. That was an excellent test of my body & I learned and fixed a lot, especially with my feet. Also, our relationship is secure and there is no more need for testing. And I hear what started as a quiet little call in my head and heart, hike, hike hike. Now, it is a screaming, billowing unignorable driving insistence. I HAVE to hike. I realized this one day when thinking about what I would do if, god forbid, something happened to Gravity. I think I was thinking about the wifes & husbands left alone after 911. Thinking how horrible that must be. And I thought, what would I do? The answer that came back to me was: Hike. Now, I know that this started off as Gravity's dream. And it took me YEARS to sort our if I wa sjus triding on the coat tails of his dream, adopting it because I love him & want to share his dream. But, I kow in my heart and heat, that this has become my dream too. I HAVE to hike to MAINE. I have to do this for me. To be able to do it together, is amazing, but I know i have to do it for myself to.

So, 3/1/05, we'r egonna be on Springer. We're gonna be flexible, adapt however the trail forces us to, listen to our bodies & hearts (and bellies:) And we are going to stand on top of Katahdin together!!!

OK, so that was alittle more than a 'chime' thanks for listening.

Minnesota, I hope that one day you can find the fullfillment of a partnership where you feel like a team, not like you have a tagalong... As was said in a previous thread, the AT is a six month adventure. A marraige is a lifetime of adventure...:clap

[DangerPea]

I have to agree with Gravity, Minnesota. You might want to think about purchasing some of the documentary style movies now available about the AT. There are two that I know of. I don't remember what they are called but if you go to the Media forum they probably talk about them there.

Also, have you read any of the novels about the AT, like "A journey north" (women's prospective), "Walking on the Happy side of misery" HIGHLY RECOMMENDED, and "The Beaten Path?" Sorry, authors' names escaping me:p

Also, have you been reading people's journals? I know you said that you have done a lot of research & reading. However, from what I gather of your approach, it sounds a little militaristic (sp?). I am not sure what your motives are for hiking. But most importantly, do you know why you want to hike?

While the desire to reach the goal of walking to Maine (an back to GA in your case) can be compelling, I have found that myself and many other people who DO make it need more than that on a day to day basis. That goal can seem pretty far away & abstract when you are in Virginia. It can feel like a superficial goal without something deeper and more substantial to support it day to day.

Finally, thru hiking, whether you finish or not, changes you. There is no doubt about it, it will change you. Without some idea of how you want to grow, because the trail will force you to, you might not get everything out of it that you could. Or, by not being open to growth, you could cheat yourself out of a great opportunity. Being driven is important to make it, but if the only think that is important to you is making it, then it is my opinion that you have already begun to stack the odds against yourself.

[gravityman]

There you go :o In case you are confused, DangerPea's trailname was Tuffy that year. She'll be going by Danger Pea (Pee?) in 2005. I'll be Waffle (I can never make up my mind).

Sorry to have derailled the yo-yo thread!

Should move this to "Hiking as a Couple" thread...

Anyway, as you can see, it's a difficult thing getting off the trail. But what maked it wondful is, now we get a chance to try again, and still haven't seen 1/2 of the trail!

Gravity Man

[minnesotasmith]

1) I want to thru-hike the AT because...

I want to see it, have had the experience, and to be able to know during endless future drudgery/mundanity that I once lived very differently. When I hiked 63 miles of the AT in NC in 8th grade as a Boy Scout, I fell in love with the Trail. Springs every half mile, it seemed; the "Green Tunnel" nickname for the AT seems about right, judging from what I saw of it. Shortly after that hike, I read up on the Trail, and found out about people who hiked the whole thing, and I decided then that one day I would do that too. That was over 20 years ago, and I've never lost that dream; I've kept it in mind as my life has wandered from course to course. Now, I have two trans-Alaska hikes I want to make, but first things first, and the AT is first. (I may permanently relocate to Alaska, and the AT will be a long way away by then.)
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2) I don't know what point you are trying to make by saying that my attitude is "militaristic". I have never been in the military, although my father was career mil. I see my attitude as one of determination and willingness to bear discomforts and inconveniences, that combined with informed conscientous advance planning and intelligent response to transpiring events will make me more likely than most to succeed in this endeavor. How is that reprehensible in any way? How I approach my hike does not affect other hikers in the least; I'm going to HMOH.

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3) On women being relatively more susceptible to injury than men, even (or perhaps especially if) both are fit, which considerably affects the chances of a hiking couple completing a thru (or the woman being able to keep pace with the man)...

From "Women in the Military" by Brian Mitchell (1998):

p. 57-8: "The most common complaint heard from male cadets and midshipmen was that integration had lowered the academies' physical standards. Physically, the women simply could not keep up. The dropout rate on morning runs during West Point's "Beast Barracks" was 23 percent for women and less than 3 percent for men. In the seventh week of training, 26.3 percent of female cadets reported for physical "reconditioning" instead of the morning run, compared to 5.6 percent of men. Women reported for sick call an average of 6.8 times per female cadet, compared to the male average of 1.7 times. They suffered more than ten times as many stress fractures as men. Attrition during the first summer was 16 percent for women, 9.7 percent for men. Even after a year of regular physical training, West Point women in the first integrated class suffered five times as many injuries as men during field training. The following year, the injury rate for women in field training was fourteen times the rate for men.

p. 141-2: "Women's physical advantages are that they are less susceptible to altitude sickness and, normally, have a greater tolerance of cold temperatures due to their extra body fat. But by all other measures, men have enormous advantages physically. The average female Army recruit is 4.8 inches shorter, 31.7 pounds lighter, has 37.4 fewer pounds of muscle, and 5.7 more pounds of fat than the average male recruit. She has only 55 percent of the upper-body strength and 72 percent of the lower-body strength of the average male. She is also at a significant disadvantage when performing aerobic activities such as marching with heavy loads and working in the heat, since fat mass is inversely related to aerobic capacity and heat tolerance. Her lighter frame, moreover, makes her more likely to suffer injuries due to physical exertion. An Army study of 124 men and 186 women done in 1988 found that women are more than twice as likely to suffer leg injuries and nearly five times as likely to suffer fractures as men.

Tests of men and women entering the West Point class of 1980 found that, on average, the upper-body strength of women was 56 percent the strength of men, their leg strength 80 percent, and their gripping strength 69 percent. Even when height was kept constant, women possessed only 80 percent of the overall strength of men. After eight weeks of intensive training, male plebes demonstrated 32 percent more power in the lower body and peformed 48 percent more work at the leg press than female plebes. At the bench press, the men demonstrated 270 percent more power and performed an extraordinary 473 percent more work than the women."

I remember, too, how when I ran competitively in high school, I was at best the third-best runner among the long-distance male runners on the team, but I routinely stomped even the best female distance runners on the team. (This was the case at two high schools, not just one.) At moving and lifting household stuff, which I have been involved in many times, something that one guy can lift invariably seemed to take two (or more) women to heft. Too, while doing household moving, most women in my experience always seemed to run out of "oomph" quicker than I and most males did, if even weights of 20 pounds are getting moved around for any length of time.

I could go on, and quote detailed info on how women get sick more than men, with specifics as to ailment treatment rates, etc., but IMO the point is clear: even physically-fit women will average somewhat weaker than men, and are more likely to drop out of a thru-hike than men due to injury or illness. Thus, my advice to a man contemplating a thru-hike is to take a woman companion if he wishes, but to understand that there is a nontrivial chance that he will be forced to choose between staying with her if/when she drops out and his getting to hike to and touch the plaque at Katahdin -- alone. (This leaves aside the fact that many men seem to have a natural pace that is faster than their female companions, and are also often inclined to do more miles per day.)

I have had some discussions with a woman I know quite well about her possibly coming with me when I attempt my thru- 18 months from now. I think she's a wonderful person who would be great company, is fairly in-shape, understands what is involved, and has the appropriate attitude about the whole thing. Nonetheless, I am realistic about her chances of completing a thru- being less than mine. I will pack so as to be able at any time to continue without her if she becomes unable to hold up her end of things (as she will pack to be able to continue without me), and both of us will accept from the beginning that "loyalty" will not mean that one person not being able to make it to Katahdin denies the experience to the other as well. That's just too much like "dog-in-the-manger" syndrome to me. Proper preparation for completing a thru-hike means IMO removing or limiting all impediments to completion to the maximum extent practical, and that IMO includes human relations/psychological/emotional factors as much as it does gear/time/financial aspects.

[pokohiker]

Minnesotasmith

Go for the gusto. Sounds like you are racing there and back come hell or high water. You will more than likely pass me twice. Tortoise and hare? My thoughts about enjoying the trail are a big 180 from yours but neither in necessarily wrong. I want my journey to be the longest, most enjoyable six months of my life.

See you there

[Moose2001]

Minnesota……just reading your posts quickly told me that you’ve yet to do any significant miles on the AT. Your naivety on many trail subjects is apparent. That’s not a bad thing or a put down. We’ve all been there. However, there are a couple of subjects you touch on that I felt the need to comment on.

1st – It’s too bad that you so quickly discount both the ability and determination of women hikers. Some of the strongest most determined, and fastest hikers I met in two trips on the AT were women. I would love to be with you the first time a woman blows by you while your hiking. Your attitude might just begin to change a little. I’d be real interested in seeing a statistical study on the comparable completion rates between men and women. I have a very strong suspicion the completion rate for women would be higher than men.

2nd – It’s obvious to me that you don’t understand or haven’t experience the bond that develops between hiking partners. It’s something you have to experience to really understand. To leave or loose hiking partner that you’ve really bonded with is one of the hardest things you’ll ever experience. It’s a cause for many hikers leaving the trail. If you add that hiker bond to an already existing committed relationship, continuing on without the other partner would be extremely difficult. I you are lucky, really lucky, while you’re one the trail, you’ll begin to understand this and possibly experience it.

3rd – You seem to paint all the comments and advice everyone is giving you with your own preformed opinions. What everyone is saying to you is you are focusing on the physical portion of the hike. That’s an important factor. Many hikers are injured and have to leave the trail. By far, the greatest reason for leaving the trail is not physical but rather mental. Completion of the AT is all about adapting. I’ve seen plenty of hikers who felt like they were going to “conquer” the trail. They go out with this great elaborate plan and when things don’t work out the way they had expected, it’s just too much for them. You see, there are just to many variables on the trail for you to control. Weather, injuries, miles, equipment failures are all things that you have to be willing and able to adapt to. If you can’t, your plan quickly falls apart. For many, that’s just too much to get past and they stop hiking. In your case, you’ve got multiple issues. You have to successfully complete two thru hikes and battle timing problems and weather issues.

You’ll learn on the trail that gear won’t get you to Maine, although it’s important. Physical conditioning won’t get you to Maine, but it’s an important factor. Elaborate planning won’t get you to Maine. What WILL get you to Maine is your head. There’s a great quote by Grandma Gatewood that I think every hiker should read every single night. Grandma said,…”It’s more head than heel”. She’s right. I’ve seen super strong hikers, carrying super light packs, moving at a super quick pace that never got to VA. I’ve meet people in GA that you would think would never have a chance to make it to Maine but at the end, they were there with you. What’s the difference? It’s all in the head. The more detailed your plan gets and the more you lock yourself into specific goals, the less chance you have of finishing. Relax; enjoy the trip and your companions. Others have said it and I believe it’s true. It’s the journey and not the destination. If you can pull off a yo-yo, it would be a journey to always remember.

Good luck to you. To have the time and opportunity to attempt such a journey is rarity. Enjoy the trip. After you’re done, come back and read your posts here. I think we’d all be interested to hear if your philosophy has changed.

[DMA, 2000]

Again, hikers who manage to complete a thru- seem from my reading to generally have in common a determination not to let anything get in the way of finishing a thru
That may well be true, and I highly recommend that you keep this attitude. It might help get you through the bad days of rain, headaches, loneliness, knee-pain, whatever. However, when you've got a wife (or husband), this is the attitude of a fool. You might argue that couples who stay together into their dotage generally have in common a determination not to let anything get in the way of their marriage.

One goal is important. The other vastly so.

But you're young, single, and unencumbered...perfect for hiking the AT. Have a GREAT adventure out there. You will remember it always.

[minnesotasmith]

OK, for one, I'm not super-young and still-unformed, I'm 43, in the final stages of a long drawn-out divorce (separated for 2 years) and think I know myself pretty well by now. No, I'm not going to be the fastest hiker on the AT in either direction (especially NOBO), and I accept that. I historically get into really good shape pretty quickly (within 5 weeks of starting, as recently as 2000) when I really push myself. I have a capacity to not be bothered by rain, cold, dirt, and some other privations as much as most other people I have ever known, including most outdoorsy people; I can sleep anywhere. In addition to full willingness to push on when it is merely uncomfortable (such being willing to go for a walk or jog in pouring rain so as not to miss a day of exercise), I also have the discipline to NOT put myself in overly dangerous situations for trivial reasons. Thus, I fully expect that I will be like a bulldog with the mental part of a thru. It's physical/gear/financial/time aspects I thus am most concerned about, as those have great potential to abort my thru-, no matter my mindset.

As far as a wife/girlfriend making someone not finish a thru-hike BC they just can't bear to be apart for that long, I have this thought: if their marriage is so fragile that it cannot survive them being separated for several months (the last half of a thru-, after one of them gets injured and drops out), it sounds as if the first real stress (inevitable in life) is going to utterly destroy that marriage at some point in any event. If some married couples can't handle being periodically apart at times when the reason is good enough, then IMO that is a heck of a reason to keep things under control and NOT let them get to such a point of mutual co-dependence. (My mother dealt with my father repeatedly being sent overseas unaccompanied while in the military for as much as a year at a time, and somehow held up under the strain.)

Imagine the preposterousness of someone telling the admissions officer of a top graduate school out-of-state offering admission with an assistantship, an employer offering a dream job with near-immediate relocation requirements, or the Selective Service in wartime that they just can't do it right now, as acceptance would mean that (gasp!) they would be apart from their spouse for weeks, maybe even months. Of course that would be seen as being like the "RichandAmy" perpetually entwined couple in the "Zits" comic strip. Frankly, I don't think that marriage should avoidably come between people and their goals, if those goals are serious, legitimate, and not a priori at odds with the letter and spirit of the marriage commitment.

Having told the spouse before marriage that they are marrying someone who one day hopes to hike the whole AT would help the legitimacy of eventually thru-hiking with or without the spouse, too. It's like when a woman marries a man who has a job with hours or work conditions she eventually comes to dislike; she knew what she was marrying before she said "I do". Anyway, there are lots of non-hiking spouses; if a couple starts out on a thru- attempt, and one drops out, IMO the drop-out just changed classification, that's all.

As far as women hikers passing me by...
Of course there will be some of that, especially on the NOBO leg of my thru-. I am not 17 and running up and down mountains for hours on Saturdays for the heck of it the way I used to; I know that. I'm smarter now, and know myself and the world better now, though, and that means something. To me, what happens every Boston Marathon sums it up nicely: the first half hour of finishers are all males. After that, it's a mixture of men and women. If I got fully back into running, I'd be in that second group, no question. If the weather really s*cked, I'd run on by plenty of both men and women entrants sitting in the shade short of the finish whose morale was blown by it being too hot, cold, or rainy (I've seen this first-hand before on shorter races in the past).

I may only have just short of 80 miles AT experience (counting my recent Approach Trail hikes), but I am not a complete stranger to hiking and running out-of-doors. One summer during grad school, I did spend six weeks doing day hikes in the hills of W. Texas, N. New Mexico, and Utah (with only about 4 zero days); seven hours of hiking was the minimum, climbing some interesting mountains. I went hiking all over the mountains (Rocky Mountains-like) of Taiwan while in Boy Scouts there. More recently, I day-hiked for a week in central Colorado in terrain that surely was steeper than 90+% of the AT, at altitudes up to 8300' (I don't seem to get altitude sickness at that point), which is higher than anywhere on the AT. I ran competitively all through high school, and on my own during much of college, and most of my training for that was not on a track; I did all this in the Deep South (before my decade in MN/WI), where it's summer 9 months of the year. Anyway, I am planning on day- and overnight (weekend) hiking most or all of the AT in GA before I set out on my thru-. (The Georgia AT club has it set up where over any 12-month period they cover the whole AT in GA as day- and overnight-hikes; I will join them as soon as my finances allow.) I also intend to spend a week this winter (in January if I can manage it), hiking in the Smokies as a trial run for the following winter.

I'm going to do this thing, and finish it, while still living my life honorably. I don't see a contradiction between these goals being unavoidable.

[Tramper Al]

Minnesota,

I really didn't want to chime in here, but I really couldn't help myself.

Like others, I have tried to get an idea for the guy behind the words in this thread. Excuse me if this seems overly blunt.

You are coming off as a guy who thinks he is rather an expert on hiking the AT, though of course you haven't.

And forgive me for saying so, but I'm not sure you know enough about marriages and other long term relationships to be passing judgement on others'.

I think if your perseverance is half as strong and inflexible as your opinions on hiking, women and marriage, then you should have no trouble completing your hike.

Best of luck, the experience is likely to give you a new outlook on life, as it has me,

[minnesotasmith]

I have never claimed nor thought I was an expert on the AT. I do claim to be an expert on myself. As far as other people and their relationships go, I don't think that having hiked the AT is essential for having acquired some wisdom about frailties of mind and body in other human beings. In fact, I think that having lived this long has given me considerably more insight on life than I had when, say, I was just finishing college. I've seen a lot of excuses over time that people throw out when visibly not achieving what appeared to be both personally very important and pragmatically fairly doable goals, and certain characteristics seem almost universal to their failures. I have learned to watch for most of those in myself when I have a major goal, and to not allow them to have legitimacy in my mind. As I've said, I can control my mind, and with proper preparation, can take care of the financial and available-time aspects. Gear can let me down on a thru-, but should be minimizable as a motivation to go so far as to drop out while on a thru-hike attempt.

Weather? From everything I've read, on a daily basis a sort of zen "roll-with-the-punches" paradigm is needed to handle it as a factor; there will be times when I can't move forward right then, however much I would prefer to. The fact that I want to start out during winter will likely make that more frequent; I know that. However, most of the time, stolidity of attitude towards unpleasant/inconvenient aspects of conditions, proper gear, and taking in available information about conditions from all sources should keep a handle on that concern WRT keeping it from knocking me off the AT.

The area that I think will have by far the largest potential to knock me out of a thru- attempt is some part of my body giving out in some way. This will be true IMO no matter what my thoroughness of preparation and amount of money I save up for the AT. If I were to have gotten in the best shape of life pre-hike through weekend/evening hiking, have an ultralight gear setup that gets oohed and aahed over at Walasi, have ten grand-plus of savings, and my mind at deteminedly at peace in advance with anything the Trail is likely to throw at me, I can still blow this thing with an injury. One fall resulting in a compound fracture in one of my legs, and that thru- attempt is over. If I was done with the Whites and points north of them, and with no winter conditions ahead of me, I suspect that having an arm in a cast would not be a guaranteed end to a thru- attempt. I had my left arm in a cast for a couple of months from a karate mishap two decades ago, and remember fairly well how that affected things for me. Basically, everything was just inconvenient and took longer; as long as I did not actually have to use both arms simultaneously. So, if I were not confronting terrain that requires alternately climbing with both hands (and from my reading, that sort of terrain is solely found on the AT north of Vermont), the AT should be doable with only one usable arm, even hiking solo. People with first-hand experience with the Trail are invited to comment here on this thought.

On other people's relationships, I will simply throw out this anecdote: I have a couple of friends (I'll call them C. and D.) that for several years both lived in the same city in a Western state. They both wanted for years to climb this impressive mountain that they could see every day. (Note that it was too steep, remote, and had too unstable a surface to wisely be hiked alone, and D. did not manage to make other friends with his work schedule.) C. would wistfully talk about how he wanted to spend a Saturday going up this hill, but invariably made vague but implacable excuses against going out and actually trying to climb it whenever D. proposed that the two of them go out together on a specific day to climb it. Finally, I visited their town for a week. D. asked me if I'd like to climb that mountain with him. My response: "Sure! How about tomorrow if the weather permits?". We got up about 0500, and went out and hiked that sucker. Yes, my legs were killing me by the time we got back to his car barely before dark, I left some skin up there, D. had an encounter with some cactus when sliding down some scree he would really rather not have had (and I had to pick thorns out of his back), the last frigging 75' of the thing turned out to be unclimbable without mountain climbing gear we did not have, and we found a beer can within 200' of the summit, but, by d*mn, D. and I hiked that sucker, and will always have the memory. C.? He changes the subject whenever the topic of D. and I climbing that mountain comes up.

C. would probably have gone up that hill with D. and I (if one of us took the initiative to organize the whole trip) in previous years before he got married. His wife saw no point to it, so that settled it WRT him going once married. She saw no legitimacy to an activity she had no interest in, and C. had so little say (far below 50%) in his marriage that that was that. A joke that was passed around (with him as the butt of it) for quite a while amongst his friends: "Hey, C.! I heard about what a great job you did painting the outside of your house. It's a really nice shade of pink, and goes so well with the garage door curtains.":o

Kind of sums up the out-of-balance life he (and so many other people) appear to lead. Me? I don't want regrets when I'm 85 and in a wheelchair that I never did something I really wanted to do. As an AT thru-hike is on that list for me, I WILL hike the whole AT, one way or another.

[Youngblood]

What Tramper Al said. There is no insult intended by Al or by me, just an observation that maybe you put too much importance on thru-hiking the AT and on your opinions. For most of us, thru-hiking the AT is an experience to be enjoyed with a realization that there are other important things involved in this adventure we call 'life'. At no time did most of us take the attitude that we would make it to Katahdin or die trying... we gave it our best and probably many times along the way we sat down and re-evaluated whether we wanted to continue on towards Katahdin. Now, having said that, it does take some stubborn determination to make it to Katahdin. But again, I don't think most of us made it with the attitude that it was Katahdin at any price... and that is the way you come across to me. It is not what I would do, that's all. I won't climb Mount Everest or set the world's record for free diving either, but that is my personality, not yours. People that take risks far and above what most people feel are resonable are always questioned as to why... it goes with the territory. It doesn't mean that we will not appreciate your accomplishments, just that we can't see ourselves doing the same because of our value system and/or our abilities. Some of us, well, maybe most of us, would not want to pay the price that you seem willing to pay.

Youngblood

[minnesotasmith]

But before you conclude with finality that I am off-base with my attitude towards my thru-hike, please consider this: I read elsewhere on WhiteBlaze that injuries were less than 1/3 of the primary reason given by thru-hike dropouts as to why they did not finish their thrus. IMO, that means that either or both of inadequate advance preparation and/or weak spirit is what nails over 2/3 of dropouts. With only about 10% of thru-hike attempts succeeding, that means that around 2/3 of people setting off on thru-hikes are critically deficient in either or both of those areas. If I am above average in my determination not to be underready in either of those areas for a thru-hike, is that not laudable, at least from the perspective of members of a discussion board in large measure devoted to the idea that successful thru-hiking is a good?

[warren doyle]

Fascinating thread to read and ponder.
I wish you well on your pilgrimage Minnesota.
March 1st to July 31st (northbound).
August 1st to December 31st (southbound).
10 months of living a simple, understandable and voluntarily demanding life.
"One must know the end to be convinced that one must win the end."

[Youngblood]

Minnesota,

I don't know what is the right answer to your question... that is something you have to answer.

Gravity Man choice to strengthen his marriage at the expensive of his thru-hike, not to weaken his marriage because it interfered with his thru-hike. I believe Gravity Man made the right decision. Is that the right choice for everybody that is faced with that choice? Maybe not, but as a 'rule of thumb', it probably is.

Youngblood

[minnesotasmith]

Here is something I ran across while looking at books on the AT in a library this afternoon. From "Appalachian Adventure", written by the staff of 5 newspapers, circa 1995, ISBN 1-56352-234-9, p. 20, on reasons thru-hikers drop out:

60% Run out of will; find hiking day after day is not what they thought it would be or they don't have enough stamina

25% Run out of money

10% Run out of time; other commitments arise, or their pace is slower than expected

5% Become injured or get sick

-----------------------------------------

They also provided this data:

Percentage of those NOBOs still on the trail at GA/NC line: 90%

At point halfway between GA and VA: 75%

By halfway through VA: 50%

By NH/ME state line: 10%

--------------------------------------------

To me, if this is correct data, the verdict is clear; competent advance preparation and sufficient will are the main variables in whether or not someone makes it to Katahdin. Injuries and illness sound as if they are claimed more than they occur.

On the subject of injuries, I've noticed that exertion-related discomfort is spoken of by many thru-hikers at every level of pace. One line that sticks in mind is "If the pain stays in one spot, you may have a problem you need to see a professional about. If the pain moves around, you're probably all right.".

[minnesotasmith]

What other hard statistics do people here know about, as far as the breakdown of reasons thru-hikers drop off the Trail short of Katahdin? I will admit that the injury percentage in that book I quoted above does seem a bit low, going by the frequency of injury reports I've read in trail journals.

[rickb]

Hard statistics regarding not completing a hike? How about that for every 2000 thru hikers who who complete a thru hike, one attempting the trip gets murdered?

Just causing trouble. Like they say, figures lie and liars figure.

Rick B

[JAWS]

I'm completing my 2nd SOBO next month (mid-December as the mileage is turning out). Will be taking a couple of weeks off and will then start a yo-yo from Springer on 1/1/05.

Anticipate arrival at Katahdin during July (no rush); will then turn around and head back to ASP (where my car will be parked).

Cold weather months (first 3-4; last 3) using a Granite Gear Vapor Trail, Lowa ATC boots, sleep in shelters (tarp as alternate) and my dry weight (sans food, water, alcohol) is 18 lbs.

Warm weather months switching to Golite Breeze, New Balance trail runners, Hennessey Hammock. Dr weight is 11.5 pounds.

Reason for January start: It is doable (been done before); few crowds prior to Damascus (shelters available); experienced and enjoy winter backpacking; less distractions (blue-blaze, towns, etc.).

[Alligator]

Hard statistics regarding not completing a hike? How about that for every 2000 thru hikers who who complete a thru hike, one attempting the trip gets murdered?

Just causing trouble. Like they say, figures lie and liars figure.

Rick BJust finish the trip and you won't be at risk by being in the attempted pool:jump .

[wacocelt]

Minnesota, it sounds as if you've done some great planning for a Thru Hike Attempt. The only problem is that once you get on the trail you may as well have those plans printed out to use as TP, because your plans will weigh heavier on you than your pack weight.

Also, this is just an observation from reading some of your rather heated and overly opinionated posts here, but that bad attitude of yours will weigh even heavier than said plans. I'm not trying to be insulting, just giving my honest observation.

That said, I have been unsucessful on 2 Thru attempts and will begin my 3rd this year. The first ended because of a rather large and unbearably painful kidney stone, I won't go into details about the second. There are NO guarantees on the trail, no amount of planning, gear, or even being in shape will keep you on the trail. The one and ONLY thing that will keep you there is the ability to not think about the pain, misery and frustration that is also a very large and important part of the AT.

I wish you the best and hope you can enjoy your hike without seeing too many dogs etc, etc. Be well!