View Full Version : LNT Question
I hiked the Black Forest Trail in PA a few years ago. We started at pine creek, crossed the stream, and shot up a quick (and steep) ascent. When we made it to the top, we were rewarded with a nice view on the left side of the trail. It seemed that the clearing was a slate (guessing here) quarry at one time.
When we picked up our packs, we noticed a wall that was built around a few trees farther back into the woods.
I have two questions:
first of all, is the wall still there?
Second of all, what is your view of someon building a wall in the woods with local stone? Is this LNT? Nothing was taken or left, just moved.
I was not sure if i should be impressed or if i should be mad that someone changed the natrual area... ok it was quarried, but the area is being reclaimed by the forest.
any thoughts?
oh, here is a pic.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7838146@N08/1556837456/
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/report.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/report.php?p=859090)
le loupe
06-26-2009, 11:56
you're gonna get all manner of responses- but this is my opinion.
I have no problem with this. It looks nice and in its current state is very low on the intrusiveness scale.
At this point, what's the alternative? kick it over! Which is uglier then?
That said, I wouldn't build it. On the other hand, it does create a gathering spot that might reduce destruction or degradation of random spots across the summit.
Doesn't bother me a bit. There are local areas that have a collection of rock people use to stack, build walls, statues, etc. Every time I go by it's something different. They aren't hurting anything, are having fun while doing it, and make something fun to look at.
To me, LNT means not ruining the landscape or leaving trash. Moving some rocks around doesn't ruin the landscape IMO.
Ox97GaMe
06-26-2009, 14:49
The leave no trace principle is that when you leave from a location, there should be little sign (if any) that you were there at all. Building of a wall like this is definitely leaving a trace. It was left in an unnatural state.
However, in your case, you came across it. It is far to large for one person (unless you took a lot of time) to break this down and disperse the rock to where it would look more natural. Just knocking over the wall isnt really a good option. As stated above, this then makes it look messy.
As a maintainer, we are asked to remove these types of constructions if we see them, unless there is some historical significance, like the old rock walls built during the revolutionary and civil war eras. Removal of objects as part of LNT for maintainers include;
- removal of stone fire rings in non designated camping sites
- removal of rock or log seats that have been placed in non designated camping sites
- rock kairns that are built in a wooded area where blazing exists (or should exist)
- kairns across open areas is accepted, but even then the maintainers are usually the ones building them.
Lone Wolf
06-26-2009, 14:55
there's a bunch of stupid cairn things on the LT/AT in vermont near whiterock cliffs. dozens of them
StarLyte
06-26-2009, 15:56
That's a nice little rock wall.
Was Weathercarrot there?
I live near the Black Forest Trail. Plan to hike it soon, look forward to sitting on this wall and taking a break.
Walkie Talkie
06-26-2009, 16:31
I am going to hike the BFT thursday. That is a slate mine and I don't think the wall is a problem at all.
freefall
06-27-2009, 01:08
Officially- this would be a violation of LNT ethics. AS was stated above, no one should be able to tell that anyone else was there before. HOWEVER... the wall is constructed in a very colonial way and is not obtrusive on the landscape. Maybe even saved that tree from erosion. I say leave it, puzzle some future archeologist :D.
Using dead fallen trees and leaves a hut could be constructed next to it. Since that involves taking nothing or leaving nothing only moving would that be adhering to LNT? The philosophy of LNT is not predicated on leaving/taking objects it is about minimizing evidence of one's being there. I think we all know where this scenario falls regradless of how one chooses to justify it.
RedneckRye
06-27-2009, 10:20
Do a google search for "Andy Goldsworthy".
Someone may have been inspired by his work.
That Andy Goldsworthy guy is amazing!
I guess he is not LNT, he has moved dandilions, ice, leaves... even dirt and rocks. he is out of control.
Rockhound
06-27-2009, 14:29
This frickin' debate again. I am always leaving a trace. I'll pick up trash, rebuild fire pits, bury my crap, write in log books, use dead wood for fires etc.... There is only 1 proven method to literally LNT and that is not to go out there. Just use common sense. Do not litter. Pack it in, pack it out. Do not tag shelters. Do not destroy living trees. Do not kill the wildlife etc...If ya'll wish to reduce this to some anal, OCD nit picking argument I'm going to have to get drunk first. See you in a few hours.
This frickin' debate again. I am always leaving a trace. I'll pick up trash, rebuild fire pits, bury my crap, write in log books, use dead wood for fires etc.... There is only 1 proven method to literally LNT and that is not to go out there. Just use common sense. Do not litter. Pack it in, pack it out. Do not tag shelters. Do not destroy living trees. Do not kill the wildlife etc...If ya'll wish to reduce this to some anal, OCD nit picking argument I'm going to have to get drunk first. See you in a few hours.
WOW, having one of those bad days? I have them too. They suck:) hey at least you going the right way by having a drink.
Jim Adams
06-27-2009, 18:02
This frickin' debate again. I am always leaving a trace. I'll pick up trash, rebuild fire pits, bury my crap, write in log books, use dead wood for fires etc.... There is only 1 proven method to literally LNT and that is not to go out there. Just use common sense. Do not litter. Pack it in, pack it out. Do not tag shelters. Do not destroy living trees. Do not kill the wildlife etc...If ya'll wish to reduce this to some anal, OCD nit picking argument I'm going to have to get drunk first. See you in a few hours.
Only good entry on this thread!...nice wall!
geek
Pedaling Fool
06-27-2009, 18:11
A huge LNT infraction (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51775)
freefall
06-27-2009, 18:12
This frickin' debate again. I am always leaving a trace. I'll pick up trash, rebuild fire pits, bury my crap, write in log books, use dead wood for fires etc.... There is only 1 proven method to literally LNT and that is not to go out there. Just use common sense. Do not litter. Pack it in, pack it out. Do not tag shelters. Do not destroy living trees. Do not kill the wildlife etc...If ya'll wish to reduce this to some anal, OCD nit picking argument I'm going to have to get drunk first. See you in a few hours.
You back yet? :)
Personally, I walk backwards w/ a broom to cover my tracks. That and I sleep in a hammock so there is no trace I have been there. Oh and I only exhale when the tree canopy is open above me.
Rockhound
06-27-2009, 18:23
You probably still use poles. Get outta the woods!