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Chance09
06-27-2009, 12:36
I'm in the middle of my thru-hike right now (I'm actually sitting at the library in Palmerton PA) and it seems that someone or a group ahead of me has really pissed off some caretakers. The past 100 miles or so we're seeing signs like "due to recent events" such and such is no longer available.

The 501 shelter had the trash cans removed and the caretaker is no longer allowed to tell people what the phone number is for pizza or even have it written anywhere near there. I believe he is even tearing pages out of the register if people write the number in it.

At the Eckville shelter the caretaker who was anything but nice and there was a sign up saying that "There is no longer sodas or is cream in the fridge and the fridge has been removed." Removing it is one thing but then putting a sign up to tell everyone what they are missing out on? That guy just seemed very rude. Everyone in the next register mentioned having bad experiences there as well.

Has anyone else heard anything along these lines? I was pretty suprised because i believe i know a majority of the thru hikers in front of me for at least a week, maybe two and i don't see them causing to much trouble for anyone.

I guess what i don't understand is why this is happening now all of a sudden?

ed bell
06-27-2009, 12:39
Since when have shelters had trash cans and refrigerators?:rolleyes:

Chance09
06-27-2009, 12:42
since they were next to the caretakers house? I'm not at all concerned about the amenities, just the attitudes of the people there.

ed bell
06-27-2009, 12:50
I wasn't familiar with the setup there. I just heard the word "shelter" and thought about the usual connotation. Here is a thread about the two you are talking about:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=65

Red Hat
06-27-2009, 13:27
So according to the above thread the changes happened a couple of years ago, not because of problems with anyone this year in particular. But someone back then must have made them mad, or enough folks didn't pay on the honor system, so no more goodies.

The Phoenix
06-27-2009, 13:28
I love the hikers who act as if mommy or daddy is going to clean up after their messes so they feel like they can leave piles of trash at campsites and shelters! It can be quiet disgusting at times.

The negative nancies can also piss me off...
"its too hot/too sticky/too buggy/the water sources are dry" -85 degrees/muggy day
"too rainy/ it's all wet/ the water sources are running straight through the trail"- 65 degree rainy day

"too hilly", "too much up", "too much down" and so on and so forth...

I got those thoughts in my head sometimes... we all got some demons... but YOU DO NOT have to speak them out every time they pop in your head... listen I am looking behind you nobody has a gun to your head saying hike the trail... if you hate it... and clearly by all your complaining you do... just get off.

Find the good in bad...

Good company+a good supply of snickers bars=no bitching.

Godspeed

Rockhound
06-27-2009, 14:15
I'm just glad it's not me pissing everyone off for a change.

kayak karl
06-27-2009, 14:19
I'm just glad it's not me pissing everyone off for a change.
you started doing that early this year didnt you:D

johnnybgood
06-27-2009, 14:35
I'm just glad it's not me pissing everyone off for a change.
It's just a matter of time. :D

Wags
06-27-2009, 14:58
I'm in the middle of my thru-hike right now (I'm actually sitting at the library in Palmerton PA) and it seems that someone or a group ahead of me has really pissed off some caretakers. The past 100 miles or so we're seeing signs like "due to recent events" such and such is no longer available.

The 501 shelter had the trash cans removed and the caretaker is no longer allowed to tell people what the phone number is for pizza or even have it written anywhere near there. I believe he is even tearing pages out of the register if people write the number in it.

At the Eckville shelter the caretaker who was anything but nice and there was a sign up saying that "There is no longer sodas or is cream in the fridge and the fridge has been removed." Removing it is one thing but then putting a sign up to tell everyone what they are missing out on? That guy just seemed very rude. Everyone in the next register mentioned having bad experiences there as well.

Has anyone else heard anything along these lines? I was pretty suprised because i believe i know a majority of the thru hikers in front of me for at least a week, maybe two and i don't see them causing to much trouble for anyone.

I guess what i don't understand is why this is happening now all of a sudden?

the # for the pizza place is written in the register at the shelter prior to 501. i forget its name but it's where that lady hung herself last year. and yes, the ranger at 501 removed some things due to thrus being douchebags. it's unfortunate for those who aren't, but some of them feel as if it's a privelidge for people to "help" them with their hike, disposing of their garbage etc. i know the ranger at 501 removed the mouse cable thing in his shelter b/c thrus were leaving their pizza boxes just sitting on it instead of walking it down to the burn barrel behind his house. i hope people don't keep pissing him off and he turns off his water/solar shower

superman
06-27-2009, 15:35
the # for the pizza place is written in the register at the shelter prior to 501. i forget its name but it's where that lady hung herself last year. and yes, the ranger at 501 removed some things due to thrus being douchebags. it's unfortunate for those who aren't, but some of them feel as if it's a privelidge for people to "help" them with their hike, disposing of their garbage etc. i know the ranger at 501 removed the mouse cable thing in his shelter b/c thrus were leaving their pizza boxes just sitting on it instead of walking it down to the burn barrel behind his house. i hope people don't keep pissing him off and he turns off his water/solar shower

That ranger and other places were pizzed off in 2000 by the bunch ahead of us. I'd like to hear what some of the folks who have hiked multiple times have to say about this issue. It sounds to me like this stuff happens every year. Greymore Friary used to do more for the thru hikers but cut back due to abuses or that property conflict is settled?

bigmac_in
06-27-2009, 16:01
Why is ANYONE surprised when some douchebag thru-hikers ruin things for others? It seems to happen every year. It's always just a matter of time.

ed bell
06-27-2009, 16:06
Calling pizza delivery from a shelter sounds cool, but after the pizza eaters are gone, sometimes the caretaker is left with the trash aftermath. I'm not saying everyone does this, but after a couple dozen times who could blame the caretaker for being ticked off.

skinewmexico
06-27-2009, 17:16
Why does some of this sound like the rumblings in the big thread about greedy hostel owners......? Probably the same people who don't think they need to make the suggested donation....

Dogwood
06-27-2009, 17:53
Chance09, this is a prime example of why each one of us should never forget that we are all trail representatives. What we each do as hikers reflects upon other hikers to follow.

emerald
06-27-2009, 18:03
So according to the above thread, the changes happened a couple of years ago, not because of problems with anyone this year in particular.

From the thread linked and referenced:


Both properties are owned by the National Park Service, but operated by Blue Mountain Eagle Climbing Club .... Due to NPS concession regulations, there is no food (or beverages) available from the caretakers on a "donation" basis.

The PA 501 and Eckville caretakers' residences are leased by BMECC to their respective caretakers who are expected to maintain their facilities and provide information to hikers in exchange for living there. While it is true they are US property, purchased by NPS, management is delegated to ATC and in turn BMECC, the local, AT-maintaining club. The caretakers' residences themselves are private residences not open to the public except with the consent of the resident caretaker.


At Eckville Shelter the caretaker who was anything but nice [put up a sign] indicating "There are no longer sodas or ice cream and the fridge has been removed." Removing it is one thing, but then putting a sign up to tell everyone what they are missing out on? That guy just seemed very rude.

Could it be he put up a sign to answer a question he's often asked? Hikers who opt to stay at these facilities do so of their own volition. Anyone who doesn't like how they are managed is free to pack up his or her belongings and hike on.

Slimer
06-27-2009, 18:10
I realize that many here despise thru-hikers, but what makes you so sure this particular problem was caused by thrus?
Are section hikers not capable of causing problems also?

superman
06-27-2009, 18:16
Chance09, this is a prime example of why each one of us should never forget that we are all trail representatives. What we each do as hikers reflects upon other hikers to follow.

There you go...good point. The bunch of thru hikers ahead of us in 2000 used the preachers computer for porn at that church hostel in NJ. They signed up for breakfast at the friary and then hiked out instead. It was one thing after another. The thoughtless stuff that some thru hikers do boggle the mind.

Speakeasy
06-27-2009, 18:19
Since when have shelters had trash cans and refrigerators?:rolleyes:

Echo is VERY cute - is he still a tiny puppy?:)

Speakeasy

Rain Man
06-27-2009, 18:28
... this is a prime example of why each one of us should never forget that we are all trail representatives. What we each do as hikers reflects upon other hikers to follow.

And why we should leave a place cleaner than we found it. Doesn't matter if thru-hiker or day-hiker. You should leave the trail cleaner than you found it.

Finding trash in a fire pit or in a shelter isn't an excuse to throw more in or leave more behind. But some take it as just such an excuse.

I was at Overmountain Shelter when a bunch of drug abusers (their drug of choice was alcohol) left the privy pit full of beer cans and whiskey bottles. Needless to say, they were chewed out by other hikers (me included) who stayed at the shelter that night with them.

Yes, some things hikers do boggle the mind, ... for the good or for the bad.

Rain Man

.

modiyooch
06-27-2009, 18:33
I'm wondering if it is even the thru hikers or AT hikers. IMO PA was very trashy including the parking lots and mt tops and town boundaries. On top of the range in Palmerton, sleeping bags and coolers were dumped. This may be the result of locals. Both of these shelters are in PA with road access.

Rockhound
06-27-2009, 18:38
thank god the 2010ers had a chance to hear about this now. At least they have time to cancel their hikes. I feel bad for the people out there right now.

emerald
06-27-2009, 18:44
Thank god the 2010ers had a chance to hear about this now. At least they have time to cancel their hikes.

I hear the phones are ringing off their hooks at ATC!;)

The Old Fhart
06-27-2009, 20:22
These posters appear at many hostels along the Appalachian Trail. If every hiker would just act like the poster suggests, there would be far fewer problems.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=33527&original=1&c=member&imageuser=1531

fiddlehead
06-27-2009, 20:29
It's tough being a caretaker.
Thru-hikers are very demanding and it gets old fast.
The ones in PA are in the middle of the "bubble" right now so, it is not hard to figure out why they are a little ornery at this time.

Hikers have broken every rule at these 2 "shelters"
some have even walked into Lazee's house, (eckville) used his shower, turned on his Tv, and even fired up his computer and used it, littered his yard with cigarette butts and garbage over and over until he had to make a rule, no smoking on the premises to slow it down a bit.

saimyoji
06-27-2009, 20:30
i'm local to the PA trail 501 to DWG.....walk it on a regular basis. Its hit and miss. Sometimes local kids screw it up, sometimes good people clean it up. Like any place that has proximal road access, there will be issues.

sorry to the folk that have had bad times in PA, but there have been plenty (dare I say the majority) that have had mostly good times.

:sun

modiyooch
06-27-2009, 20:52
It's tough being a caretaker.
Thru-hikers are very demanding and it gets old fast.
The ones in PA are in the middle of the "bubble" right now so, it is not hard to figure out why they are a little ornery at this time.

Hikers have broken every rule at these 2 "shelters"
some have even walked into Lazee's house, (eckville) used his shower, turned on his Tv, and even fired up his computer and used it, littered his yard with cigarette butts and garbage over and over until he had to make a rule, no smoking on the premises to slow it down a bit.
wow, I stand corrected. I'm sorry to hear that. I liked the eckville shelter facilities.

DapperD
06-27-2009, 20:58
Chance09, this is a prime example of why each one of us should never forget that we are all trail representatives. What we each do as hikers reflects upon other hikers to follow.This is what the ATC has been preaching for years, we are all "walking and talking" billboards for the AT and the thru-hiking/trail community in genearal.

Jeff
06-27-2009, 21:40
I was at Overmountain Shelter when a bunch of drug abusers (their drug of choice was alcohol) left the privy pit full of beer cans and whiskey bottles. Needless to say, they were chewed out by other hikers (me included) who stayed at the shelter that night with them.

Yes, some things hikers do boggle the mind, ... for the good or for the bad.

Rain Man

.

Rain Main,

Thanks for speaking up when you saw the abuse at Overmountain shelter. Letting these people slide when problems occur does nothing to deter their actions.

MedicineMan
06-27-2009, 21:44
nice enough guy but do not ask him any questions about anything ever....just look around and you'll see that every question anyone could ever ask is already answered and plastered on the wall. He was very cool about my hammock out back of the shelter in the ivy.

Crazy Larry #1
06-27-2009, 21:55
I'm just glad it's not me pissing everyone off for a change.
i am getting upset and and and...........never mind.........;)

Tin Man
06-27-2009, 22:15
I'm wondering if it is even the thru hikers or AT hikers. IMO PA was very trashy including the parking lots and mt tops and town boundaries. On top of the range in Palmerton, sleeping bags and coolers were dumped. This may be the result of locals. Both of these shelters are in PA with road access.


wow, I stand corrected. I'm sorry to hear that. I liked the eckville shelter facilities.

In my experience, it is locals who trash shelters convenient to road crossings. Most thru-hikers behave very well when they are only one or two travelling together. It is more the party groups that create the problems...

emerald
06-27-2009, 22:25
Only Pennsylvania through hikers are permitted to camp at PA 501 and Eckville Shelters.:-?

Alcohol is not permitted at either location.

fiddlehead
06-27-2009, 22:32
Only Pennsylvania through hikers are permitted to camp at PA 501 and Eckville Shelters.:-?

Huh? Does that mean born in PA, or hiking in PA at the present time?

emerald
06-27-2009, 22:36
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51666

My point was problems at these two facilites are not caused by locals who use them as a place to party, since they're not permitted to use these facilities on NPS land, but some of the same general principles govern their use.

Camping is restricted to AT hikers except with the consent of the resident caretaker. The rules at these two facilities are more strict than at other shelters due to their proximity to roads and more consistent with those apt to be encountered at hostels.

Tin Man
06-27-2009, 23:00
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51666

My point was it's not the locals, since they're not permitted to use the facilities.

Camping is restricted to AT hikers except with the consent of the resident caretakers. The rules at these two facilities are more strict than at shelters and consistent with those more apt to be encountered at hostels.

how does that work?

emerald
06-27-2009, 23:09
Basically, AT hikers have use of these facilities at the discretion of their caretakers. Exceptions might be made when they feel one's warranted although such a decision might involve consulting with BMECC's Corridor Management Committee chairman or ATC.

I'm off tomorrow and I don't know if shelterbuilder is available to field any additional questions. I'll PM him the link.

Many Walks
06-27-2009, 23:58
There is a lot of generalization about all the nasty thru hikers. I agree we saw a few cases of bad behavior, but the worst seemed to get stuck partying in some town and dropped out. The vast majority of hikers in it for the long haul tended to their business, appreciated services and amenities, cleaned up after themselves and were respectful of the folks they encountered.

We pulled into Eckville on a rainy day and the place was a bit crowded, but everyone was courteous, obeyed the rules, and cleaned up after themselves. The caretaker wasn't overly friendly, but was nice enough. Rather than answering the same questions 1,000 times in a season he pointed us to the signs first, then was glad to discuss anything the sign didn't cover. No problem, I could see that.

Maybe it was just the bubble we were hiking with, but I believe the majority of thru hikers are good folks. The rest should be called on it when they get out of line. I also believe the folks living on the trail dealing with hikers routinely see enough of the bad ones to get very frustrated with the entire hiker community. As with anything, it only takes a few to spoil it for the rest. With the few cases we did see or heard of, it seemed like the hikers had left Mom a little too soon as she wasn't there to take care of them.

I hope as future hikers read this thread they realize how their actions on the trail and in the supporting communities impact all other hikers out there.

Jack Tarlin
06-28-2009, 00:09
It's true; generalizations are just wrong. Are there bad thru-hikers out there, even bad groups of thru-hikers?

Sure there are.

But on the other hand, I just spent the past two days hanging out with a group of around fifty of them, talking to them, shuttling them, feeding them, you name it, and you couldn't ask for a better group of folks.

There's good and bad everywhere. The thru-hiker Class of '09 (and I've met several hundred of them) is made up of some really fine people, and anyone who speaks ill of them, or makes unkind generalizations about them...well, I'm not sure they've met enough of them.

It's human nature to concentrate (and speak more often) on the bad apples one encounters.

That's too bad.

I'd rather speak well of the good ones.

And this year, anyway, what you see out there is mostly good.

Lone Wolf
06-28-2009, 06:28
I also believe the folks living on the trail dealing with hikers routinely see enough of the bad ones to get very frustrated with the entire hiker community. As with anything, it only takes a few to spoil it for the rest. With the few cases we did see or heard of, it seemed like the hikers had left Mom a little too soon as she wasn't there to take care of them.


come spend a month or so in damascus when they're all comin' through here. it's way more than just a few "spoiling it for the rest"

Jeff
06-28-2009, 07:05
come spend a month or so in damascus when they're all comin' through here. it's way more than just a few "spoiling it for the rest"

Ms Janet and Ron Haven must be (been) saints for putting up with hikers down south.:-?

Lone Wolf
06-28-2009, 07:22
Ms Janet and Ron Haven must be (been) saints for putting up with hikers down south.:-?

it helps when you have $$$ coming in

superman
06-28-2009, 09:26
come spend a month or so in damascus when they're all comin' through here. it's way more than just a few "spoiling it for the rest"

What is your impression of the bad behavior in terms of it being worse this year than previous years or is it just the same old issue every year?

Jack Tarlin
06-28-2009, 13:15
It helps if there's money coming in?

Geez, I wasn't aware that Miss Janet was awash in cash, Wolf, nor that she was ever about making money.

And Ron Haven spends thousands of dollars every year helping hikers, shuttling them for free, doing favors for all sorts of folks who don't spend a dime at any of his businesses, etc.

Lone Wolf's comment was uncalled for.

Rockhound
06-28-2009, 13:22
How much was it to get into the fools bash this year? Just askin'

Rockhound
06-28-2009, 13:27
He shuttles from Winding Stair gap to.......? Er it's on the tip of my tongue......to.... What's that motel in Franklin?

Lone Wolf
06-28-2009, 13:28
It helps if there's money coming in?

Geez, I wasn't aware that Miss Janet was awash in cash, Wolf, nor that she was ever about making money.

And Ron Haven spends thousands of dollars every year helping hikers, shuttling them for free, doing favors for all sorts of folks who don't spend a dime at any of his businesses, etc.

Lone Wolf's comment was uncalled for.

calm your ass down :rolleyes: it DOES help if you've got money coming in. ron haven runs a business. janet shoulda set prices in stone the day she opened her doors but she trusted that hikers would do the right thing.
my comment is a fact

Rockhound
06-28-2009, 13:28
Ron does do quite a bit to help hikers I know, but I don't think he is exactly destitute either. I'm sure he generates quite a lot of business via the magic he provides.

mere533
06-28-2009, 13:47
dk about that situation but i do think most hikers are responsible (sp?) ppl who appreciate what caretakers/trail angels do.
that being said i did get stuck for a good 75 miles behind one hiker who im sure did not pack out a single corner of his powerade wrappers
i (dumbly) confronted him when we finally shared a shelter and realized the next day that my $40 for the shelter/hostel was missing
buuut i got a free ride and free stay from the locals :) so don't go losing faith in humanity over one (or even a few) bad apples

ps. dude was prob using the money to shuttle his *** ahead b/c he couldnt outhike this beastly shehiker ;)

Rockhound
06-28-2009, 13:49
What is your impression of the bad behavior in terms of it being worse this year than previous years or is it just the same old issue every year?
I limit all my bad behavior to the internet. When hiking I am a kind, courteous, polite, trail representative.

Lone Wolf
06-28-2009, 14:41
What is your impression of the bad behavior in terms of it being worse this year than previous years or is it just the same old issue every year?

worse this year especially concerning the "No Dogs on Property" policy. it seems hikers with dogs are all illiterate. smokers, dopers and drinkers ain't much better. signs really don't seem to matter

Jeff
06-28-2009, 15:07
I limit all my bad behavior to the internet. When hiking I am a kind, courteous, polite, trail representative.

I can attest Rockhound is a Boy Scout when on trail. He's also Trustworth, Loyal and Helpful.:)

superman
06-28-2009, 15:13
I can attest Rockhound is a Boy Scout when on trail. He's also Trustworth, Loyal and Helpful.:)

See...that proves that not all hikers are azz holes.:D

Cedar Tree
06-28-2009, 19:33
I found you to be a very cool person and a positive trail representative, who can catch things very well. I mean when I threw something at you, you always caught it. I respect a man who can catch well. Nice meeting you last weekend.
Cedar Tree



I limit all my bad behavior to the internet. When hiking I am a kind, courteous, polite, trail representative.

Rockhound
06-28-2009, 20:59
nice meeting you too Cedar Tree. I'm going up north in a week or so and will be away from your neck of the woods for quite a while. Next time around though might have to go hiking, provided you can hike better than you drive that is.:D

Tin Man
06-28-2009, 21:31
I wonder why so many thru-hikers feel so entitled to free services? Couldn't have anything to do with all that 'magic' they experience early in their hike, could it? :-?

Chaco Taco
06-28-2009, 21:57
Thru-hikers feel entitled! They feel entitled to having someone pick them up when they want to go in town. They feel entitled to have a place to stay. They feel entitled to have showers, food, a place to sleep. Alot of the entitled feel like they can stiff businesses, they steal, they deface places that are not there own. Even people with the money to spend feel entitled to having everything and everyone at there feet, allll because they think they are thruhikers. Remember, you aint a thruhiker til you complete the trail. The entitlement of being a hiker is bs.

Rockhound
06-28-2009, 22:03
I don't appreciate that comment Chaco. I feel I deserve better than that.:rolleyes:

Chaco Taco
06-28-2009, 22:30
I don't appreciate that comment Chaco. I feel I deserve better than that.:rolleyes:

Did I say Rockhound???

Chaco Taco
06-28-2009, 22:32
I don't appreciate that comment Chaco. I feel I deserve better than that.:rolleyes:

You deserve only the best Rockhound!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7Qc_Ula5vo8/SOz3qnM9d5I/AAAAAAAACB8/ldf39rgd_TA/s400/cartmen.jpg

ki0eh
06-29-2009, 11:22
I'm in the middle of my thru-hike right now (I'm actually sitting at the library in Palmerton PA) and it seems that someone or a group ahead of me has really pissed off some caretakers. The past 100 miles or so we're seeing signs like "due to recent events" such and such is no longer available.

The 501 shelter had the trash cans removed and the caretaker is no longer allowed to tell people what the phone number is for pizza or even have it written anywhere near there. I believe he is even tearing pages out of the register if people write the number in it.


I was at the 501 shelter on 6-14-09 in the late afternoon (not staying) and observed several quiet thru-hikers passing around the menu for pizza - there was a trash can inside the shelter clearly labeled burnable waste - and the one who had gotten his pizza had put his box in it already. If the observed changes happened since 6-14-09 that might localize the "group" pretty well.

beakerman
06-29-2009, 13:03
i thought pizza boxes were burnable???? I'm jujst sayin' if they aren't then there clearly was a faux pas committed but really aren't they?

Slo-go'en
06-29-2009, 13:05
I passed through the 501 and eckville shelters couple of years ago. At the time, the ranger at the 501 shetler was a really nice guy who even drove a bunch of us into town and back. This was in stark contrast the the Eckville caretaker, who didn't want to be bothered at all with hikers and seemed it would not take much to piss him off. My thoughts at the time was he had been there too long and needed to be replaced.

Pootz
06-29-2009, 13:17
I have been to both the Eckville and 501 shelters a copuple times. Found both caretakers to be nice and helpfull. I think hikers staying at these places need to to be friendly and respectful and they will recieve the same treatment.

Chaco Taco
06-29-2009, 16:35
The guy at Eckville was not friendly and we cleaned the place up for him. He got mad that we hitched to a gas station and brought back ice cream. The guidebooks had said that sodas and IC were available to purchase there but he said that some previous hikers had "screwed it up for everyone else"

emerald
06-29-2009, 16:57
I thought pizza boxes were burnable?
Burning trash in Bethel Township is governed by a local ordinance taken into consideration when BMECC formulated its new policy in consultation with ATC. Bethel's ordinance isn't available on its website and since I don't have a copy, I can't quote from it.

I'm told, when burned, trash must be contained within a receptacle incorporating a mesh screen to discourage airborne debris which could contribute to a trash fire burning out of control. Therefore, open burning of trash is not permitted anywhere in Bethel Township even when other burning prohibitions are not in effect.

Pennsylvania Code prohibits open burning on State Forests and State Game Lands seasonally and also when DCNR determines forest fire danger to be high, very high or extreme. Counties and townships also have authority to issue burn bans within their jurisdictions.

When these conditions exist, trash would accumulate at BMECC's facility until such time as the caretaker could burn it, thus transferring responsibility for proper disposal of trash generated by hikers unto the caretaker, creating an unsightly mess and likely drawing unwanted wildlife.

BMECC's policy encourages hikers to take responsibility for trash they generate by packing it out and disposing of it properly.


The guy at Eckville was not friendly and we cleaned the place up for him.
Maybe he's "old school" and you fail to realize he's there to protect BMECC's legacy and investment, not to give through hikers a kiss on the cheek.:) Helping others to develop a good work ethic is commendable.

He got mad that we hitched to a gas station and brought back ice cream. The guidebooks had said that sodas and IC were available to purchase there, but he said that some previous hikers had "screwed it up for everyone else."

Maybe he thought you a trouble-maker and might cause you to reflect on your wayward ways and thus spare other inn keepers up the trail.

I don't know what handbook you carried, but here's ALHDA's text for 2009:

Hawk Mountain Road—East 0.2 mile to Eckville Hikers Center, an enclosed bunkroom that offers space for 6. No fee. Water from a spigot at the back of the caretaker’s house. Solar shower, flush toilet, and tent platforms with picnic table available. Open yearround.

Maybe you were carrying the wrong handbook or too tight to buy a new edition. If you had wanted ice cream, you might have bought some at Port Clinton. Did you pack out your trash you brought?

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have brush to chip and weeds to pull which strikes me as better use of my time than responding to your posts.

max patch
06-29-2009, 17:05
The guy at Eckville was not friendly and we cleaned the place up for him. He got mad that we hitched to a gas station and brought back ice cream. The guidebooks had said that sodas and IC were available to purchase there but he said that some previous hikers had "screwed it up for everyone else"

You used to be able to buy sodas and ice cream on the "honor system."

I don't "know" what happened, but I can certainly make an educated guess....

saimyoji
06-29-2009, 17:56
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have brush to chip and weeds to pull which strikes me as far more interesting.

then why bother posting? :rolleyes:

TD55
06-29-2009, 18:21
then why bother posting? :rolleyes:

Stress release therepy and positive identity reinforcement.

Lone Wolf
06-29-2009, 19:19
then why bother posting? :rolleyes:

cuz 'ol shades wants everyone to think he's an authority on all things AT in Pa. ?

Chaco Taco
06-29-2009, 19:29
Maybe he's "old school" and you fail to realize he's there to protect BMECC's investment, not to give through hikers a kiss on the cheek.:)



Maybe he thought you your were a trouble-maker and thought he might cause you to reflect on your wayward ways and thus spare other inn keepers up the trail. Helping others to develop a good work ethic is commendable.

I don't know what handbook you carried, but here's the ALHDA text for 2009:



Maybe you were carrying the wrong handbook or too tight to buy a new edition. If you had wanted ice cream, you might have made reservations elsewhere. Did you pack out your trash you brought?

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have brush to chip and weeds to pull which strikes me as far more interesting.

Still an a**hole I see.

Yes we packed out our trash. It was actually word of mouth that we had heard from hikers from past years about the IC and sodas. I was mistaken. Anyway, o holy emerald, hiker god:rolleyes:

High Life
06-29-2009, 19:33
the best thing to do at eckville shelter

1.is don't bother that dude
2. camp across the street ( they have a great camping area )

saimyoji
06-29-2009, 19:33
cuz 'ol shades wants everyone to think he's an authority on all things AT in Pa. ?

Shades of Gray :sun I was tryin' to remember his old handle.....

TD55
06-29-2009, 19:34
Still an a**hole I see.



This is not helpful for positive identity reinforcement.

Lone Wolf
06-29-2009, 19:36
the best thing to do at eckville shelter...



is don't friggin go there. the place ain't all that no matter who's caretakin'. stay in the woods

Blissful
06-29-2009, 19:36
Everyone is "pee peeing" everyone else now.

Time to close up shop on this one.

High Life
06-29-2009, 20:13
is don't friggin go there. the place ain't all that no matter who's caretakin'. stay in the woods

Agreed.. ;)

Wise Old Owl
06-29-2009, 20:19
cuz 'ol shades wants everyone to think he's an authority on all things AT in Pa. ?


Whoa, and are you not the authority on everything in your trail town?

Lone Wolf
06-29-2009, 21:33
Whoa, and are you not the authority on everything in your trail town?

my town, maybe. the state of VA? certainly not

emerald
06-29-2009, 21:36
cuz 'ol shades wants everyone to think he's an authority on all things AT in Pa. ?

My only claim is to know more about Berks County than through hikers who have been through it once.

Live long enough in the same place, some folks do learn a few things.

Jack Tarlin
06-29-2009, 22:47
Not looking to pick a fight with anyone, but over the years I've stayed at Eckville Shelter more times than I can remember, and I never had a problem there. Point is, I guess, is that it doesn't matter where you are on the Trail, ther will be someone who had a complaint or problem there. Has this happened at Eckville? Sure it has, same as anywhere else. Is there a big or recurrent problem there?

No, there isn't.

Lugnut
06-29-2009, 22:52
Has this happened at Eckville? Sure it has, same as anywhere else. Is there a big or recurrent problem there?

No, there isn't.


Quit answering your own questions! :D

yaduck9
06-30-2009, 00:05
Has hell frozen over?


EOM

Nasty Dog Virus
06-30-2009, 05:42
This thread has been quite an entertaining read !!!

Pootz
06-30-2009, 09:59
Stayed at the Eckville Shelter on July 4th 2005. The same Caretaker that is there now cooked everyone hot dogs and hamburgers. In 2007 he gave us a ride to town to resupply. I think you get from him what you give. This is true of most people.

Bidwell
06-30-2009, 17:23
I'd like to have a blame-storming session... I'd like to first blame Eileen.

neighbor dave
06-30-2009, 17:49
Stayed at the Eckville Shelter on July 4th 2005. The same Caretaker that is there now cooked everyone hot dogs and hamburgers. In 2007 he gave us a ride to town to resupply. I think you get from him what you give. This is true of most people.

i agree wif pootz
i was there in "05" and he was a nice guy.

MOWGLI
06-30-2009, 17:58
i agree wif pootz
i was there in "05" and he was a nice guy.

I have heard repeatedly that he is a nice guy. Maybe that is so. He acted like a dick when I went through in 2000. He was the singular most unpleasant service provider I met on the trail that year - by far. And the folks at the shelter that night were pleasant and followed all the rules.

TD55
06-30-2009, 18:09
One time a bug flew into my ear and I couldn't get it out for two days. I was miserable and mean the whole time that bug was stuck in my ear. Maybe the caretakers mood depends on if a bug is in his ear or not.

CrumbSnatcher
06-30-2009, 18:15
in 99' he bought pizza for the handful of hikers that helped repaint the shelter. i've been there about 3 times since. i've seen both sides of him. he's nice most of the time,but very standoffish. probably burnt out running the place! from what i remember he doesn't own the house or the land. just the care taker? he's probably burnt out on hikers but does'nt want to give up the pad? putting up with all the bad apples over the years would suck too though,he's put up with them longer than i could of!!!

501 X Ranger
06-30-2009, 20:40
As the caretaker of the 501 shelter let me clear things up for you. My lease agreement responsibilities to hikers are to keep order and provide an information board in the shelter, that is it, the rest of my duties are maintenance. As far as for the pizza delivery, title 36 section 5.3 prohibits business within the park area. ( The Appalachian Trail is considered a National Park). My lease prohibits me from selling anything to hikers such as soda or ice cream, ect. So I made the complaint, why should OIP be allowed the sell items to the hikers when I cannot. Garbage is what started this, 10 to 12 pizza boxes and 5-2 liter recyclables every day! I am not working for OIP, plus the hikers could not get the trash into the right receptacles. I had 1 can for trash, 1 for burnables and 1 for recyclables, but the hikers could not get it right or some of them left their pizza boxes on the picnic table or hanging on the mice ropes, so no more mice ropes or trash cans, now you pack out what you pack in. We used to provide shampoo, body wash and conditioners for hikers at the shower, this year when the containers were empty the hikers threw them in the woods instead of putting them in the recycle bins, so now there is no more soap. This morning, the hikers from last night had gathered a pile of sticks and left them scattered , I have wood cut and split for the hikers but now that is gone. So this year it seems like the hikers can’t read, if you look in the register the hikers draw pictures, so I guess hikers are like cavemen they rely on pictographs to communicate, so maybe we need to change the signs to pictographs. Any other issues you need answered?

Lone Wolf
06-30-2009, 20:46
As the caretaker of the 501 shelter let me clear things up for you. My lease agreement responsibilities to hikers are to keep order and provide an information board in the shelter, that is it, the rest of my duties are maintenance. As far as for the pizza delivery, title 36 section 5.3 prohibits business within the park area. ( The Appalachian Trail is considered a National Park). My lease prohibits me from selling anything to hikers such as soda or ice cream, ect. So I made the complaint, why should OIP be allowed the sell items to the hikers when I cannot. Garbage is what started this, 10 to 12 pizza boxes and 5-2 liter recyclables every day! I am not working for OIP, plus the hikers could not get the trash into the right receptacles. I had 1 can for trash, 1 for burnables and 1 for recyclables, but the hikers could not get it right or some of them left their pizza boxes on the picnic table or hanging on the mice ropes, so no more mice ropes or trash cans, now you pack out what you pack in. We used to provide shampoo, body wash and conditioners for hikers at the shower, this year when the containers were empty the hikers threw them in the woods instead of putting them in the recycle bins, so now there is no more soap. This morning, the hikers from last night had gathered a pile of sticks and left them scattered , I have wood cut and split for the hikers but now that is gone. So this year it seems like the hikers can’t read, if you look in the register the hikers draw pictures, so I guess hikers are like cavemen they rely on pictographs to communicate, so maybe we need to change the signs to pictographs. Any other issues you need answered?

:D i love it! someone else knows what i'm talkin' about. i really do not like most thru-hikers. sectioners are great for the most part

CrumbSnatcher
06-30-2009, 20:56
501x ranger, i live too far away to be a section hiker very often,so i thruhiked a couple times,it sucks to get a bad reputation,& being grouped togeather with all the bad apples! i never felt entitled to be hiking. always came to the trail with plenty of cash and respect for other people and the trail. im sorry you have to deal with idiots all the time. most of them will never come back to the trail so they **** on eveything and everyone. and expect **** because they think their special. thanks for all the effort and time you dedicate to the trail and the 501 shelter!!!

Frosty
06-30-2009, 20:59
One time a bug flew into my rear and I couldn't get it out for two days. I was miserable and mean the whole time that bug was stuck in my rear. your left the "r" off the beginning of "rear"

I fixed it for you :D

Rockhound
06-30-2009, 21:01
Saw it at SBF saw it at the place. Cans clearly marked "Trash" or "Aluminum Cans" and lazy stupid hikers couldnt handle it. Empty shampoo bottles, used band aids, duct tape etc.... left all over the place instead of being put in the waste basket. Disgusting. God forbid you have a compost bucket. I swear sometimes it seems todays generation has gotten so used to having mommy wipe their azzes their whole lives that now they can't seem to do anything for themselves. Oh yeah I forgot. You can hike. Well big effin deal. I learned to walk when I was 1. These are the same lazy azz hikers trashing every shelter the stay at. Do not do it when I'm there. You will regret it.

Slimer
06-30-2009, 21:19
Wolf, I'm beginning to feel sorry for you.
I understand that you absolutely hate most thrus, and yet you chose to live in a trail town...and buy a house within feet from the trail. I can only imagine your anger and bitterness when all those thrus come walking by your property.....and god forbid those evil parades full of thrus during trail days.
Anyways, i'm glad to hear your ticker is doing well...and good luck on your upcoming marathons.

Lone Wolf
06-30-2009, 21:30
Wolf, I'm beginning to feel sorry for you.
I understand that you absolutely hate most thrus, and yet you chose to live in a trail town...and buy a house within feet from the trail. I can only imagine your anger and bitterness when all those thrus come walking by your property.....and god forbid those evil parades full of thrus during trail days.
Anyways, i'm glad to hear your ticker is doing well...and good luck on your upcoming marathons.

well slime, i bought a house here and live here not because of the AT. because of the local folk and what the the surrounding area has to offer. my bitterness comes from a few years of volunteering at The Place cuz the caretaker asked me to help out with rule enforcement. no more after this year. hikers don't care about rules. i don't care about them.
i haven't seen the parade for 4 years now. dumbass season only lasts about 45 days. the hikers in town nowadays are respectful and act like adults

shelterbuilder
06-30-2009, 21:35
As the caretaker of the 501 shelter let me clear things up for you. My lease agreement responsibilities to hikers are to keep order and provide an information board in the shelter, that is it, the rest of my duties are maintenance. As far as for the pizza delivery, title 36 section 5.3 prohibits business within the park area. ( The Appalachian Trail is considered a National Park). My lease prohibits me from selling anything to hikers such as soda or ice cream, ect. So I made the complaint, why should OIP be allowed the sell items to the hikers when I cannot. Garbage is what started this, 10 to 12 pizza boxes and 5-2 liter recyclables every day! I am not working for OIP, plus the hikers could not get the trash into the right receptacles. I had 1 can for trash, 1 for burnables and 1 for recyclables, but the hikers could not get it right or some of them left their pizza boxes on the picnic table or hanging on the mice ropes, so no more mice ropes or trash cans, now you pack out what you pack in. We used to provide shampoo, body wash and conditioners for hikers at the shower, this year when the containers were empty the hikers threw them in the woods instead of putting them in the recycle bins, so now there is no more soap. This morning, the hikers from last night had gathered a pile of sticks and left them scattered , I have wood cut and split for the hikers but now that is gone. So this year it seems like the hikers can’t read, if you look in the register the hikers draw pictures, so I guess hikers are like cavemen they rely on pictographs to communicate, so maybe we need to change the signs to pictographs. Any other issues you need answered?

I was going to post a dissertation on the subject, but your post covers most of the major points.

My wife and I were caretakers at Eckville before Lazee, and those were a couple of mostly great summers punctuated by "bubbles of entitlement" ("Hi, I'm a thru-hiker; what do you have for me?"). It really is easy to get burned out by the bubbles....:( And unfortunately, the burnout tends to last longer than the bubbles do.

The items that used to be available "for a donation" were a nice way of being neighborly - we used to have soda and freezey-pops, but I don't think that the system was self-sustaining until mid-August. However, NPS does NOT make the distinction between "for pay" and "for donation", so the practice was ended at both Eckville and Rt. 501. (No, we never intended to "make money" with the sodas and popcicles, but that's irrelevent.)

"Trail Magic" is a funny thing: it's nice to do nice things for folks, but sometimes, some folks begin to expect nice things just because nice people are occasionally doing nice things. Well,:cool: here's a news flash: without the continuing day-to-day "trail magic" of the caretakers at Eckville and Rt. 501, those facilities wouldn't operate, and NPS would require that they be torn down. So-o-o-o, the next time you drop in on these folks, please remember 2 things: today's "caretaker-attitude" is probably the result of yesterday's hikers; what can YOU do to make sure that tommorow's "caretaker-attitude" is better than today's?

Lone Wolf
06-30-2009, 21:38
eckville and 501 should just shut the doors. they are not needed. ther's plenty of woods to camp in

TD55
06-30-2009, 21:39
your left the "r" off the beginning of "rear"

I fixed it for you :D
Good one Frosty, you a funny happy guy, but the bug really was in my ear. :bananaHow do you think of stuff like that?:banana
And caretaker guy, thanks for what you do. I could never do the job you do. You deserve lots of thanks and credit for the job you do for hikers and the trail. Hope you know there are lots of us out here that respect the work you do.

Sarge
06-30-2009, 21:42
This has been an interesting thread. I had heard a lot of the bad stories before the years I hiked so I made it a point to make sure I carried myself well and leave a favorable impression wherever I went. I would have done that anyway, but hearing about the bad apples made me more aware of it. I always found that you got treated better when you didn't expect anything. In 2007 I hitched to the campground store in Crawford Notch. They had a sign on the door saying that the showers were only for campground patrons because they were full due to the upcoming July 4th weekend. I bought some lunch and supplies and mentioned the shower, but I told them I understood why they couldn't let me use it. Because I didn't EXPECT it, they were nice enough to let me use it anyway. I told them they didn't have to, but they insisted. You attract more bees with honey than you do vinegar. They even gave me a ride back to the trail. I never expected anything anywhere I went, but I appreciated and felt blessed for anything anybody did for me. I believe most hikers are like that.

Captain Blue
06-30-2009, 21:55
501 X Ranger: Sounds like what you are experiencing is what is being experienced in other National Parks. Garbage, littering, misuse of labeled receptacles, ignoring posted signs, etc.

The caretaker at Eckville can be cranky. I stayed there in ’97, ’04 and ’08. The last two visits he was not very friendly. I did not ask for anything or want anything from him. But in casual conversation you could tell he was not a happy person or at least he came across that way. This is my observation anyway.

Captain Blue
Dayton, Ohio
AT 6,400 Miler
Chronic Section Hiker

MOWGLI
07-01-2009, 07:32
eckville and 501 should just shut the doors. they are not needed. ther's plenty of woods to camp in

Agreed - 100%. It wouldn't hurt if the BMECC actually went out of their way to find some caretakers who wanted to be around hikers. It takes a special person. Clearly, they don't have those folks in place right now. Miss Janet would be perfect.

MOWGLI
07-01-2009, 07:40
As the caretaker of the 501 shelter let me clear things up for you. My lease agreement responsibilities to hikers are to keep order and provide an information board in the shelter, that is it, the rest of my duties are maintenance. As far as for the pizza delivery, title 36 section 5.3 prohibits business within the park area. ( The Appalachian Trail is considered a National Park). My lease prohibits me from selling anything to hikers such as soda or ice cream, ect. So I made the complaint, why should OIP be allowed the sell items to the hikers when I cannot. Garbage is what started this, 10 to 12 pizza boxes and 5-2 liter recyclables every day! I am not working for OIP, plus the hikers could not get the trash into the right receptacles. I had 1 can for trash, 1 for burnables and 1 for recyclables, but the hikers could not get it right or some of them left their pizza boxes on the picnic table or hanging on the mice ropes, so no more mice ropes or trash cans, now you pack out what you pack in. We used to provide shampoo, body wash and conditioners for hikers at the shower, this year when the containers were empty the hikers threw them in the woods instead of putting them in the recycle bins, so now there is no more soap. This morning, the hikers from last night had gathered a pile of sticks and left them scattered , I have wood cut and split for the hikers but now that is gone. So this year it seems like the hikers can’t read, if you look in the register the hikers draw pictures, so I guess hikers are like cavemen they rely on pictographs to communicate, so maybe we need to change the signs to pictographs. Any other issues you need answered?

With any luck, someone at ATC will read this post and take the appropriate action. Clearly, they can do better than this childish individual.

PS: I am a caretaker, and if I behaved like this, I would expect to be removed from my position - pronto.

ki0eh
07-01-2009, 08:57
In a perfect world, every person would be perfectly situated for their perfect job, and every person served would behave appropriately.

Although it may be worth considering the possibilities of someone either paying for regular trash service, or closing road-based shelters altogether.

Skyline
07-01-2009, 10:06
Anyone who has operated a hostel, or done the kind of repetitive trail magic that involves inviting random hikers to share your home for a few days, can probably empathize with 501 X Ranger.

If one serves 100 hikers in a season, and 10% or fewer turn out to be real azzholes, you tend to remember those and not the "good" 90%. The solution, for me, was to steer away from the hobby of being a trail angel. I've witnessed scores of others in the same position get burned out and do likewise. Who loses? The hikers lose of course, and the person who formerly helped hikers loses the joy of it all.

Please folks, don't behave like that nasty 10%. If you can't help yourselves, get some counselling or consider going home until you think you can behave like an adult. Or maybe, go back and read Sarge's post #101. That's a primer in how to hike the AT.

Homer&Marje
07-01-2009, 10:24
This has been an interesting thread. I had heard a lot of the bad stories before the years I hiked so I made it a point to make sure I carried myself well and leave a favorable impression wherever I went. I would have done that anyway, but hearing about the bad apples made me more aware of it. I always found that you got treated better when you didn't expect anything. In 2007 I hitched to the campground store in Crawford Notch. They had a sign on the door saying that the showers were only for campground patrons because they were full due to the upcoming July 4th weekend. I bought some lunch and supplies and mentioned the shower, but I told them I understood why they couldn't let me use it. Because I didn't EXPECT it, they were nice enough to let me use it anyway. I told them they didn't have to, but they insisted. You attract more bees with honey than you do vinegar. They even gave me a ride back to the trail. I never expected anything anywhere I went, but I appreciated and felt blessed for anything anybody did for me. I believe most hikers are like that.


Definitely go into the woods expecting nothing but what you have brought. That is the idea of self sufficiency folks.

Funny some of the same people (no one in particular, just making a generalization) that bitched about Karl Meltzer having too much support on his speed hike attempt, are probably the same whiny purists demanding someone to let them in and use their facilities just because they live near the trail.

Not everyone is out to help you. Assume 90% of the people want nothing to do with you, and be thankful and very gracious to the 10% that do help you.

And never assume that the amenities offered at one shelter/ hostel/ campsite will NOT be offered or will have a DIFFERENT set of rules than the last....the worst is whiners who say "but the last guy, but at the last hostel, well we were allowed to there"

S. E. L. F. S. U. F. F. I. C. I. E. N. T.

ithai
07-01-2009, 10:35
there was a sign up saying that "There is no longer sodas or is cream in the fridge and the fridge has been removed."

Ouch, that's cruel...

Rockhound
07-01-2009, 10:41
Ouch, that's cruel...
Have you read this thread at all? It is not cruel it's cause and effect. If thru-hikers were not inconsiderate, lazy jerks there would still be goodies there. Don't blame the caretakers/hosts. Blame the idiot hikers. There are a lot of em'

yaduck9
07-01-2009, 10:43
Sounds like a good thing gone bad ( or least going bad ).

I work on the service side of a corporation and I know that if your not careful, people start feeling entitled to those acts of "going the extra mile". It no longer is "something extra" , but something that is now expected.

In my situation, I see the customers repeatedly over many years. I would imagine, for a caretaker, he sees them once and then they're gone, never to be heard from again ( in most cases ). I get the opportunity to develop an ongoing relationship, the caretaker does not.

I would imagine, it would be extremely frustrating to want to do a good job, to want to get a good reputation, and have to put up with bad behavior, with little recourse. At least I get to come back in and re negotiate, and bit by bit, reestablish a working relationship with my customer. The caretaker does not have that opportunity. Bad apples come in, they behave fairly well, and in the morning they leave the place trashed, never to be seen or heard from again.What is the caretaker going to do? He has no leverage, he has no closure.

I think, I would become a bit of a grump under those circumstances. :-?

woodsy
07-01-2009, 10:47
Hope the author doesn't mind me posting this here, seems like an opportune time and place for it and is specific to the AT.: Its a start.....


APPALACHIAN TRAIL ETIQUETTE
On the trail, as in life, good manners go far. Here's how to behave:
1. Don't lecture Give advice only to those who request it of you.
2. Be considerate If you snore, travel with a dog, play music loudly, talk on the phone, go to bed really early, wake up really early, smoke, sleep naked, or dislike being around others, consider tenting rather than sleeping at shelters–you'll be the king of your own castle and you won't see nasty things written about you in shelter logs.
3. Share Never spread out in a shelter to prevent others from using it, and never consume the entire contents of a Trail Angel's cooler by yourself. And remember: There's always room for one more in a shelter during a storm.
4. Protect the water Drink upstream, do everything else downstream. Don't foul the water for your fellow hikers by walking, bathing, or dishwashing at the source of a spring or a stream crossing.
5. Pack it out You're not being altruistic by leaving extra food at a shelter for "someone else." It just invites scavenging animals. Many trail town businesses have "hiker boxes" for this type of sharing.
6. Be grateful Hitches, hostels, angels, and trail maintenance are just some of the supports built into the AT that rely on the generosity of others. You already smell bad–don't make it worse.
8. Respect privacy It's very hard to lose someone while walking 3 mph on a one-foot-wide trail. Don't assume that anyone wants to merge itineraries for the next six months, and if you pick up an unwanted tag-along, don't spend your hike ducking behind logs–just be honest.
9. Don't complain Of course it sucks that your boot soles fell off halfway through Pennsylvania. Look at the bright side: You're not at work! –Peter "Wicked Lobstah" Rives, 2004 AT thru-hiker

TD55
07-01-2009, 10:53
[quote=Chance09;860468] "There is no longer sodas or is cream in the fridge and the fridge has been removed."quote]
Why would anyone care if there were sodas and ice cream in the fridge if the fridge had been removed? Even if it was full of sodas and ice cream it wouldn't do you no good if you didn't know where the fridge got removed to. I think cruel would be to put up sign that said "The fridge is full of sodas and ice cream, but it has been removed and you don't know where it is". That would be cruel.

kyhipo
07-01-2009, 11:33
Lilhipo and I had a great time at eckville,asked If he needed a little help with the yard work and he gave us a 6pack and a ride later.I was upset to hear people doggin on him up the trail.We had a nice hike and met many nice folks.People at the blue mountian summit where nice also.ky

Blue Jay
07-01-2009, 12:43
The caretaker at Eckville can be cranky. I stayed there in ’97, ’04 and ’08. The last two visits he was not very friendly. I did not ask for anything or want anything from him. But in casual conversation you could tell he was not a happy person or at least he came across that way. This is my observation anyway.

This is true, however he's decent guy and does his job of keeping up the shelter. I've stayed there a few times and he never remembers me but also has never done anything but ignore me which is fine. Too many annoying hikers have come through so he's written us off. Not everyone can be happy.

Ridge Rat
07-01-2009, 12:46
Lilhipo and I had a great time at eckville,asked If he needed a little help with the yard work and he gave us a 6pack and a ride later.I was upset to hear people doggin on him up the trail.We had a nice hike and met many nice folks.People at the blue mountian summit where nice also.ky

You can't help but feel bad for lilhipo though. She has 2 black eyes and looks like she's been through the ringer. Glad to see you guys making your way up the trail though. We met at Eagles Nest.

Blissful
07-01-2009, 14:35
. As far as for the pizza delivery, title 36 section 5.3 prohibits business within the park area. ( The Appalachian Trail is considered a National Park).

So the shelter itself is on NP land? I mean it isn't RIGHT on the trail if memory serves. How far does the land extend? Just curious about that.

And other places have allowed pizza delivery. Like Partnership which is RIGHT on the trail and was allowed until recently for many years. So this provision is curious and may need further explanation, just for my info. I mean then one could say if they are asking paid shuttle providers to pick them up at trail crossings, that is soliciting business and would therefore be illlegal. (?)

CrumbSnatcher
07-01-2009, 14:40
So the shelter itself is on NP land? I mean it isn't RIGHT on the trail if memory serves. How far does the land extend? Just curious about that.

And other places have allowed pizza delivery. Like Partnership which is RIGHT on the trail and was allowed until recently for many years. So this provision is curious and may need further explanation, just for my info. I mean then one could say if they are asking paid shuttle providers to pick them up at trail crossings, that is soliciting business and would therefore be illlegal. (?)
a few years ago in georgia,that was a major topic. a couple of the shuttles i had, talked about having/needing a license/permit for shuttling. your probably right? if your getting paid for it uncle sam wants his share?

MOWGLI
07-01-2009, 15:02
My lease prohibits me from selling anything to hikers such as soda or ice cream, ect. So I made the complaint, why should OIP be allowed the sell items to the hikers when I cannot.




And other places have allowed pizza delivery. Like Partnership which is RIGHT on the trail and was allowed until recently for many years. So this provision is curious and may need further explanation, just for my info. I mean then one could say if they are asking paid shuttle providers to pick them up at trail crossings, that is soliciting business and would therefore be illlegal. (?)

Blissful, maybe you missed the quote above. The caretaker is apparently upset that he isn't allowed to sell things to hikers. That appears to be the crux of the issue.

Lone Wolf
07-01-2009, 15:03
And other places have allowed pizza delivery. Like Partnership which is RIGHT on the trail and was allowed until recently for many years. (?)

pizza delivery is still allowed just ain't no drinkin' of alcohol allowed

Sleeps_With_Skunks
07-01-2009, 15:56
Thru-hikers feel entitled! They feel entitled to having someone pick them up when they want to go in town. They feel entitled to have a place to stay. They feel entitled to have showers, food, a place to sleep. Alot of the entitled feel like they can stiff businesses, they steal, they deface places that are not there own. Even people with the money to spend feel entitled to having everything and everyone at there feet, allll because they think they are thruhikers. Remember, you aint a thruhiker til you complete the trail. The entitlement of being a hiker is bs.

Hey it starts at home. If you exepct everyone to hand everything to you and you have no responsibility when it comes to picking up for yourself...what makes you think a person will do the same on any trail thru hiker or not.

I was raised to leave a place better than I found it and to treat people the way I want to be treated....and I still do this.

SWS

Nean
07-01-2009, 18:35
Finding trash in a fire pit or in a shelter isn't an excuse to throw more in or leave more behind. But some take it as just such an excuse.

I was at Overmountain Shelter when a bunch of drug abusers (their drug of choice was alcohol) left the privy pit full of beer cans and whiskey bottles.

Rain Man

.

From what I've seen on WB its OK to litter as long as you wipe your butt with it. :confused: :rolleyes:

Blissful
07-01-2009, 18:58
Okay, guys thanks.

shelterbuilder
07-01-2009, 20:22
So the shelter itself is on NP land? I mean it isn't RIGHT on the trail if memory serves. How far does the land extend? Just curious about that.

And other places have allowed pizza delivery. Like Partnership which is RIGHT on the trail and was allowed until recently for many years. So this provision is curious and may need further explanation, just for my info. I mean then one could say if they are asking paid shuttle providers to pick them up at trail crossings, that is soliciting business and would therefore be illlegal. (?)

While the shelter is quite a distance from the actual footpath, the NPS owns most of the ridgetop in this location. (The theoretical "AT Corridor" is, I believe, 1000 feet wide - someone correct me if I'm wrong - but the footpath meanders back-and-forth within that coridor.) It was purchased over several years (in small parcels from various private owners) in order to protect the trail - this protection includes not only the footpath itself, but a substantial amount of the "viewshed" (what you can see from the footpath - besides the rocks:D). The footpath used to run along the dirt road that parallels Rt. 501 on its north side, and ran between many, many second homes and summer get-away bungalows. Once the properties were purchased, the footpath was moved off of the dirt road and onto - what else? - the rocks. The shelter and the caretaker's residence were on the last parcel of land to be purchased, and if BMECC hadn't decided to spend its own money to "create" the shelter, these structures would have been torn down along with the rest of the other bungalows. (I won't get drawn into a discussion of the pros and cons of this action - it's ancient history.)

On NPS land, in order to sell ANYTHING (food, services, etc.), you need a consessionaire's license from the National Park Service. The fact that sales of all kinds (for fee or for donation) have been made in the past does not have any bearing on the regulation - policy is policy, and stated policies need to be adhered to. (This is the primary reason that my wife and I ended our stay as caretakers at Eckville - we have had sled dogs for many years, and occasionally will have a litter, but it would have been illegal for us to sell any pups from NPS land, so we left in order to pursue that part of the sled dog hobby.)

Frosty
07-01-2009, 20:59
Good one Frosty, you a funny happy guy, but the bug really was in my ear. :bananaHow do you think of stuff like that?:banana
I didn't mean nothing by it. Just had a bug up my rear, I guess

Wags
07-01-2009, 22:32
501 ranger should just turn off his water faucet for thrus and see how they like it then. people taking stuff for granted is lame.

like the fact that he had to dispose of 2 empty fuel canisters and a random flip flop this morning. b/c the 15 thrus who stayed there last night absolutely wouldn't make it to port clinton with that empty fuel canister in their pack

Nean
07-02-2009, 18:25
501 ranger should just turn off his water faucet for thrus and see how they like it then. people taking stuff for granted is lame.

like the fact that he had to dispose of 2 empty fuel canisters and a random flip flop this morning. b/c the 15 thrus who stayed there last night absolutely wouldn't make it to port clinton with that empty fuel canister in their pack

Did 501 ranger sniff the so called liter? These items may have been used to clean and... remove smelly stuff! Then it would be fine and dandy to leave behind----though it is considered to be a bit more considerate to toss it in the woods, put some leaves over it, hide them under a rock or a 1/2 inch of soil, or of course, the privy. :D:rolleyes:

emerald
07-02-2009, 18:46
Here's the exact language posted on the sign board at 501 Shelter so that hikers can be informed about NPS's/ATC's/BMECC's policy before they arrive:


ATTENTION HIKERS

IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE TRAIL EXPERIENCE - THE LEAVE NO TRACE POLICY - AND NPS REGULATION WHICH PROHIBITS BUSINESS ACTIVITIES WITHIN THE PARK AREA, PIZZA DELIVERY TO THE SHELTER IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE. THERE ARE MANY PLACES TO EAT IN TOWN. IF YOU MANAGE TO GET A PIZZA, REMEMBER THAT YOU PACK OUT WHAT YOU PACK IN. BURNING PAPER, PLASTICS OR ANY OTHER PRODUCTS BESIDES WOOD IS PROHIBITED. HIKERS SHOULD REFER TO THRU HIKER GUIDES AND COMPANIONS FOR RESOURCES ON SERVICES SUCH AS HOSTELS, RESTAURANTS, HOTELS AND RIDES.


Just like what's offered at Eckville, language on posted signs is subject to change. The best way hikers can be assured of having current information is to carry current handbooks and read signage.

When in doubt, don't assume, ask. Policies often vary from one place to another, especially in Pennsylvania. Local control is a long-standing and cherished tradition in the rural, agricultural communities through which the AT passes.

Tin Man
07-02-2009, 18:57
Here's the exact language posted on the sign board at 501 Shelter so that hikers can be informed about the policy before they arrive:



Just like what's offerred at Eckville, the text of signs posted are subject to change. The best way hikers can be assured of having current information is to carry current handbooks and read signage.

seems simple enough... now if thru-hikers could only take the time to read... and respect the rules... thanks for sharing

CrumbSnatcher
07-02-2009, 19:51
im a thruhiker and i always read the rules and respect them. stop grouping us all together! i'm nothing like those young party groups that have **** for brains!!!:) my dog had more respect for the trail and alot more commonsense than them dumbass's!

TD55
07-02-2009, 20:09
im a thruhiker and i always read the rules and respect them. stop grouping us all together! i'm nothing like those young party groups that have **** for brains!!!:)

For real. And we are getting a little carried away with defending the caretaker perhaps. If 15 so called thru hikers leaving behind two stove canisters and a flip flop is worthy of complaint thats pretty darn whiney. The flip flop probably wasn't litter. Problaby lost/forgotten. So one or two of the fifteen thought it was ok to leave behind thier used canisters. Big deal. And please note, it wasn't the caretakers complaint about the canisters and flip flop.

Tin Man
07-02-2009, 20:29
im a thruhiker and i always read the rules and respect them. stop grouping us all together! i'm nothing like those young party groups that have **** for brains!!!:) my dog had more respect for the trail and alot more commonsense than them dumbass's!

my apologies, should preface my comments with '20-something thoughtless thru-hikers'. last year there was kirby - at 16 he was more mature and wise about his hike than most of the adolescent-minded on here.

what are you doing this year - thought you were going long?

CrumbSnatcher
07-02-2009, 21:19
no apoligies needed Tinman, i might BE hiking big k to glencliff this aug?

Lone Wolf
07-02-2009, 21:29
Here's the exact language posted on the sign board at 501 Shelter so that hikers can be informed about NPS's/ATC's/BMECC's policy before they arrive:



Just like what's offered at Eckville, language on signs posted is subject to change. The best way hikers can be assured of having current information is to carry current handbooks and read signage. When in doubt, ask.

just meet the delivery person at the road. legal then. but i guess the hikers are too lazy to walk the 50 yards

Mr. Parkay
07-02-2009, 21:38
As the caretaker of the 501 shelter let me clear things up for you. My lease agreement responsibilities to hikers are to keep order and provide an information board in the shelter, that is it, the rest of my duties are maintenance. As far as for the pizza delivery, title 36 section 5.3 prohibits business within the park area. ( The Appalachian Trail is considered a National Park). My lease prohibits me from selling anything to hikers such as soda or ice cream, ect. So I made the complaint, why should OIP be allowed the sell items to the hikers when I cannot. Garbage is what started this, 10 to 12 pizza boxes and 5-2 liter recyclables every day! I am not working for OIP, plus the hikers could not get the trash into the right receptacles. I had 1 can for trash, 1 for burnables and 1 for recyclables, but the hikers could not get it right or some of them left their pizza boxes on the picnic table or hanging on the mice ropes, so no more mice ropes or trash cans, now you pack out what you pack in. We used to provide shampoo, body wash and conditioners for hikers at the shower, this year when the containers were empty the hikers threw them in the woods instead of putting them in the recycle bins, so now there is no more soap. This morning, the hikers from last night had gathered a pile of sticks and left them scattered , I have wood cut and split for the hikers but now that is gone. So this year it seems like the hikers can’t read, if you look in the register the hikers draw pictures, so I guess hikers are like cavemen they rely on pictographs to communicate, so maybe we need to change the signs to pictographs. Any other issues you need answered?

I have to wonder is the above post is from the actual caretaker or some imposter?

Anyhow, being a ranger, hanging out with hikers and eating pizza doesn't sound so bad to me. I would definitely apply for this job.

Wise Old Owl
07-02-2009, 21:45
Boring! Dumb! - Hey folks this is so way over the top in so many ways and has NOTHING to do with the trail! Order PIZZA anywhere you want. The prize is getting someone to deliver....

Let me step away from the perverbial soap box.

Drucif
07-02-2009, 22:11
We left the Flip Flop for whoever dropped it behind and was looking for it; it's common etiquette. And Fat Kid says "the sign said recycle, so we left the fuel cans behind" ... I don't know if that's an excuse. He's normally a very nice kid. Either way, ol' 501 X had a good "talk" (it was more like a yell) with us the second we walked into the shelter about those horrible kids who left sticks "all over" (they were piled neatly) and generally set the mood for a pretty negative experience, despite the wonderful shelter and awesome skylight.

- Fidget

Tin Man
07-02-2009, 22:15
just meet the delivery person at the road. legal then. but i guess the hikers are too lazy to walk the 50 yards

nah, they just can't figure out simple solutions to non-issues

Jack Tarlin
07-02-2009, 22:52
I'd love to know how many of the folks who are presently (and anonymously, I might add) slamming the 501 or Eckville caretakers have actually put up hikers at or immediately adjacent to their own houses.

C'mon guys. Fess up. Tell us all about it.

Have you put up several hundred hikers every year, year after year? Do you know what it's like; have you had to deal with 15-20 "guests" every night for six weeks every summer?

No? Um, didn't think so.

Then shut the eff up, because plain and simply, you're not qualified to talk on the subject.

It amazes me that places like 501` and Eckville are still open, period.

Get a life, folks.

Tin Man
07-02-2009, 23:00
It amazes me that places like 501` and Eckville are still open, period.



agreed. close 'em all, tear down the shelters, stop the feeds, and get rid of the 'magic'... see if people are more interested in hiking or being catered to

seriously... hiking north with spring has totally lost its panache... now it's hiking north with the buffet

Hoop Time
07-02-2009, 23:29
Sounds to me like 501x has legitimate reason to be upset. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think it is his job to clean up after slobs who leave garbage and can't even bother to separate recyclables.

Jack Tarlin
07-02-2009, 23:32
You got it.

It's not his job to do this, nor do hikers have an inherent "right" to have pizza and soda pop anywhere they want on the Trail.

Anyone who feels differently about this?

Well, there's a real simple solution: Put your thumb out and get your ass to town. More pizza and soda there than you can shake a stick at.

sherrill
07-02-2009, 23:48
I did my hike in 1983. There were similar issues with hikers then, as well.

Maybe now with a smaller world we find out much more quickly about it.

Selfish people are everywhere.

volleypc
07-03-2009, 18:29
I do not think any hikers pissed off the caretaker at the 501. I think he is pissed because he is not allowed to sell camp food to hikers out of his house. I passed by there about a week ago and had ordered pizza and picked it up at the roadway. I was eating it outside of the shelter and he came up to me and asked where I got the pizza. I told him I ordered it and he told me I was not allowed to order pizza. He said I could go to town and get it but the transaction can not take place on NPS service. I told him nicely that he is wrong and that there is nothing illegal with me ordering pizza IF I walk to the parking lot to pick it up. He then went off on a tangent that it was not fair that he can not sell food out of his house or that other businesses were not getting the business. He said it was not fair that was place was getting all of the business. Then he said that he had just had all the trash can and recycling bins removed and removed the recepticals in the shelter because people were charing their phones. But what really upset me was the fact that everyday he was ripping out the trail journal registry pages. I had a friend that went southbound from Maine to the 501 last year and this year went northbound to the 501 from GA. She was there about a week before me and I was looking forward to reading her final registry. He has torn out every single page. There is no excuse for that behavior as far as I am concerned. We nicknamed him the shelter natzi.

volleypc
07-03-2009, 18:31
One thing I forgot to mention, the pizza driver came back later that night to pick up all the boxes. He volunteered to take the boxes back to the store for us. I was pretty impressed by his actions.

emerald
07-03-2009, 19:25
Some contributors seem more interested in what they perceive as their rights and speculating about what motivates AT managers than facts or availablity of hiker amenities.

I was tempted to post more in reply to posts #143 and 144, but I'll show some restraint and just stick with facts instead.

emerald
07-03-2009, 19:29
Engaging in or soliciting any business in park areas, except in accordance with the provisions of a permit, contract, or other written agreement with the United States, except as such may be specifically authorized under special regulations applicable to a park area, is prohibited.

Blissful
07-03-2009, 22:01
Engaging in or soliciting any business in park areas, except in accordance with the provisions of a permit, contract, or other written agreement with the United States, except as such may be specifically authorized under special regulations applicable to a park area, is prohibited.





This was my point earlier. Then that has to include shuttle/hostel/motel/slackpack operators, right? At trail crossings who pick up hikers and charge for the pick up? Unless they are employed by the US gov? And is it soliciting business if you have a shuttle pick you up to take you to their motel or hostel, and you call on "gov property, ie AT" to ask for their "business" - and they pick you up at the crossing? Seems the same thing to me as ordering a pizza...?

Guess someone needs to tell the rangers at Partnership...

emerald
07-03-2009, 22:24
I only post code. I don't attempt to interpret it, nor do I claim to know the answers to your questions.

On this issue, I defer to the superior wisdom of NPS, ATC and BMECC's board. I suggest others do likewise.

Rockhound
07-03-2009, 22:27
What a great thing to waste time effort and money on. Preventing people from ordering pizza. Lets just form a committee, elect representatives, discuss all sides of the issue, set it to a vote, establish new rules and regulations regarding the delivery of pizza and proper disposal of boxes, post signage barring the selling and delivery of pizza except in designated areas and by official licensed individuals at a set distance from the trail or park.....get everything in place and then watch as absolutely nothing changes as hikers order and shops deliver pizza just as they always have.

Pedaling Fool
07-04-2009, 09:57
Threads like this illustrate why thru-hiking the AT is nothing special – anyone can do it in today’s world.

Eight pages bitching about pizzas and sodas. Pathetic hikers.:rolleyes:

MOWGLI
07-04-2009, 10:12
He then went off on a tangent that it was not fair that he can not sell food out of his house or that other businesses were not getting the business. He said it was not fair that was place was getting all of the business.

The "Ranger" said as much in his post here in this thread. This "caretaker" reminds me of a jilted boyfriend, who won't let anyone have his ex, if he can't. :p

Skyline
07-04-2009, 10:13
This was my point earlier. Then that has to include shuttle/hostel/motel/slackpack operators, right? At trail crossings who pick up hikers and charge for the pick up? Unless they are employed by the US gov? And is it soliciting business if you have a shuttle pick you up to take you to their motel or hostel, and you call on "gov property, ie AT" to ask for their "business" - and they pick you up at the crossing? Seems the same thing to me as ordering a pizza...?

Guess someone needs to tell the rangers at Partnership...



If money or its equivalent in goods or services is exchanged, it's a business transaction. The National Park Service rules apply. Even if you call it a donation, gift, a little gas money, etc.

There are similar, but slightly different rules, that apply to National Forests. For that matter, there are rules that apply to Federal buildings and Federal installations such as military bases.

The solution for those wanting to do business on Federal property is simple: Qualify for—and then purchase—the required permits.

Each state and local municipality may have additional regs that would apply.

MOWGLI
07-04-2009, 10:29
Here's what I haven't seen anyone discuss yet. The 501 Shelter in less than 5 miles north of the William Penn Shelter. It's nearly 16 miles to the next shelter to the north. Why a roadside enclosed shelter? Is there something about the corridor north of 501 that makes it difficult or impossible to construct a shelter in the woods, or some tent pads? Been a while since I hiked through there, so I'd be curious to know. Is the corridor too narrow? Are there PA Gamelands north of 501? Something else? Anyone?

Nearly Normal
07-04-2009, 10:29
"Dumb Ass Season"?
HaHaHa.....

k-n
07-04-2009, 10:51
seems like everyone wants a slice of the pie, so to speak.

Yahtzee
07-04-2009, 10:57
Blissful, not sure shuttle drivers are engaging in business on NPS property, that may be the difference. The conduct business transactions elsewhere and perform them on NPS property. Much like tour bus drivers or a taxi service. If they were sitting on the side of the road, soliciting customers, that would seem to violate the code. But merely picking up and dropping them off does not seem to.

emerald
07-04-2009, 11:29
The "Ranger" said as much in his post here in this thread. This "caretaker" reminds me of a jilted boyfriend, who won't let anyone have his ex, if he can't.

Your attempt at an analogy fails to accurately convey Ron's position. He's never sold anything at PA 501, nor is it his desire. What he's attempted to convey is NPS's policy isn't being consistently applied and it applies to everyone, not just him.


501 Shelter is less than 5 miles north of William Penn Shelter. It's nearly 16 miles to the next shelter to the north. Why a roadside enclosed shelter? Is there something about the corridor north of 501 that makes it difficult or impossible to construct a shelter in the woods, or some tent pads?

William Penn Shelter was built after 501 Shelter was created by BMECC from residual structures slated for demolition on land acquired by NPS.

Most of the AT corridor between PA 501 and Port Clinton is State Game Lands, with notable exceptions where the AT crosses PA 501 and PA 183. This stretch is too readily accessible to warrant building additional shelters. In fact, 4 were removed from this stretch over the years. I doubt any additional unsupervised shelters will ever be constructed.

I'd like to see tent pads and revegetation of impacted areas at Schubert's Gap, once the site of Hertlein Cabin (shelter). The AT might be reconfigured in that general area and tent pads might situated on spurs off the current AT which could be maintained as a blue-blazed alternate path to further reduce impacts. I don't know why that couldn't happen at some point.

AT hikers can camp at Applebee Campsite near Pilger Ruh. It's where I camped in 1980 during the interval between when Applebee Cabin (shelter) was razed and before 501 Shelter came on-line.

I see the shelters at PA 501, Port Clinton and Eckville as important links in BMECC's shelter system, which is a desireable resource management tool. Maintaining a presence at PA 501 is part of BMECC's plan for managing corridor lands for which it's responsible. Furthermore, the well at the caretaker's residence provides a reliable water source when natural sources fail.

MOWGLI
07-04-2009, 12:49
seems like everyone wants a slice of the pie, so to speak.

Pepperoni please! :banana

Skyline
07-04-2009, 17:37
Blissful, not sure shuttle drivers are engaging in business on NPS property, that may be the difference. The conduct business transactions elsewhere and perform them on NPS property. Much like tour bus drivers or a taxi service. If they were sitting on the side of the road, soliciting customers, that would seem to violate the code. But merely picking up and dropping them off does not seem to.



You can check this out on your own if you invest a little time, but I'll save you the effort.

•If you are operating a business on or through National Park Service property, the rules apply. It doesn't matter where the exchange of money takes place nor what you call that exchange of money. It doesn't matter where or how the deal was struck. Repeat: If you are using the property of a National Park to provide a service that you take money for, you must follow the laws that have been in existence for many years.

•If a shuttle driver or taxi service picks up, discharges, or transports people on Federal property, they must first obtain a what is called a Commercial Use Authorization permit from the NPS unit being used to make that money. To qualify for that permit, they must first meet all insurance, safety, and state/local regulations that may apply in a particular NPS unit's locale. (Actually, qualifying is a lot more cumbersome and a lot more expensive than the permit itself.)

This may seem stringent and expensive, but the fact that many commercial businesses adhere to the existing applicable laws, and still make a fair profit, is proof that the system can work for those who have the business acumen to be successful. For those who want to do this sort of thing as a hobby or part time business, maybe not.

Yahtzee
07-04-2009, 17:50
Thanks Skyline for the info. My brain was thinking exclusively about the 501 situation and I was picturing Rt. 501, not say SNP or the Blue Ridge. Good to know.

SunnyWalker
07-04-2009, 19:10
Sounds like you are pissed off.

Trillium
07-04-2009, 20:33
I have to wonder is the above post is from the actual caretaker or some imposter?

Anyhow, being a ranger, hanging out with hikers and eating pizza doesn't sound so bad to me. I would definitely apply for this job.what happened to going to law school?

shelterbuilder
07-05-2009, 09:19
William Penn Shelter was built after 501 Shelter was created by BMECC from residual structures slated for demolition.

Most of the AT corridor between PA 501 and Port Clinton is State Game Lands, except where the AT crosses PA 183. Road access to Blue Mountain in northern Berks County serves to make most of the AT too easily accessible. I doubt any additional unsupervised facilities will ever be constructed.

I would like to see some hardened tent pads and revegetation of impacted areas at Schubert's Gap, once the site of Hertlein Cabin (shelter). The AT might be reconfigured in that general area and tent pads might situated on spurs off a short blue-blazed alternate path to further reduce impacts. I don't know why that couldn't happen at some point.

AT hikers can also camp at Applebee Campsite near Pilger Ruh. It's where I camped in 1980 during the interval between when Applebee Cabin (shelter) was razed and before 501 Shelter came on-line.

I see the shelters at PA 501, Port Clinton and Eckville as important links in BMECC's shelter system, which is a desireable resource management tool. Maintaining a presence at PA 501 is part of BMECC's plan for managing corridor lands for which it's responsible.

Emerald makes good points here - the construction timeline and the land ownership issues in the general area.

The timeline: Eagle's Nest Shelter was built in '87-'88 on State Forest Land, to replace an aging, undersized shelter 1 1/2 miles to the north of the new location. DCNR (which administers Pa.'s State Forests) is far easier to work with than the Game Commission in terms of shelter permitting, even though the Game Commision owns the lion's share of the land in this area. With Eagle's Nest in place, there was STILL a gap between shelters of nearly 30 miles (from Rausch Gap to Eagle's Nest), so when the 501 property became available, the logical move was to create a "caretakered" facility (a caretaker being necessary because of the site's proximity to the road, and because of the area's on-going "mis-use" by some of the locals). Shortly after this, money was donated by the William Penn Foundation to fund construction of the William Penn Shelter, which was finished in the mid-90's. Most people who use William Penn for overnight accomodations are locals doing a section, while most thru-hikers use the 501 facility, since Pine Grove (and the laundry and grocery stores - AND the pizza shops) is more accessable from this location. Generally, this is not a problem for BMECC; the advent and continued use of cell phones to call for "civilized amenities" to be delivered to "remote locations" has contributed to the problem.

As for land ownership, some folks fail to realize that the NPS does NOT own all of the land over which the AT passes! Congress provided funds only to purchase private land - land that was already owned by the states was never purchased, so the state's regulations prevail in such areas. On State Game Lands, the permitting process for a shelter (or even for tent pads/platforms) is difficult because hiking/camping is not a primary focus - the focus is habitat and resource management, and shelters can sometimes degrade both. BMECC continues to prefer to NOT seek such permits from the PGC, so it is unlikely that anything will be constructed on State Game Lands in the future.

And as for NPS regulations - we can't change 'em. Just because they MAY not be enforced today doesn't mean that they will NEVER be enforced - if a problem arises that is caused by not enforcing a rule, and the NPS sees it as a problem, then the rule WILL be enforced in order to correct the problem.

PS - I know the caretaker personally - IMHO, he's a good guy! The poster was not an imposter - he's the real deal!

Rockhound
07-05-2009, 09:25
what happened to going to law school?
Yes! Thats what the world needs. More lawyers!:rolleyes:

generoll
07-05-2009, 10:28
could use some good ones.

beakerman
07-05-2009, 12:05
Pizzas, sodas and ice cream?! ***!?

Someone feels entitled to these things because they are thru hiking? This is how I know we as a people are totally screwed: When someone thinks that they are entitled to junk food and get ticked off because they can't get it when they want it. If you can't live without a few "modern" conveniences then perhaps backpacking is not a good activity for you. Get your greasy food and sugar fix in the trail towns.

And whining about a "surly" caretaker? Maybe he's not the best guy for the job but guess what: he's the only caretaker you have for that shelter so act the age not the IQ and at least try to be appreciative and respectful of the things he does do for you for you rather than whine about what he isn't doing for you.

Personally I like 501 rangers posts...and I take the same tack with my scouts and my children: If you can't care for or appreciate what I've provided for you above minimum requirements then you don't get it anymore.

I'm not going to call anyone out in particular but I've seen several of the posts here in this thread that I can't take any other way than some of you think you deserve something because you are taking a long walk. Nobody made you do this. You should know what you are getting into before you set foot on the trail (with in reason) and know that you will not likely be getting Domino's at your campsite and that people don't have to give you anything. You are of course welcome to barter for things--you want to get a lift into town from a shelter then maybe offer to cut some firewood, help cut the grass or paint something. The caretaker shouldn't expect these sorts of things either but I'd bet you your bottom cliff bar that if you offered and did a half way decent job of it then ask for a lift into town, a bar of soap and shampoo or what not you'd get it. You might even get a pass if you left an empty fuel canister behind or some other minor infraction. You get what you give folks--respect gets service and service gets respect.

emerald
07-05-2009, 16:59
Most people who use William Penn for overnight accommodations are locals doing a section, while most thru-hikers use the 501 facility ...

Most through hikers use Duncannon and Port Clinton for resupply and find PA 501 or somewhere nearby a good place to stay after a night at Rausch Gap Shelter. Eagle's Nest Shelter followed by a short day suits most, but others hike straight through to Port Clinton. Few through hikers go into Bethel or Pine Grove.


And as for NPS regulations - we can't change 'em.

I believe they were created for a reason and it's BMECC's responsibility to comply with them.


I know the caretaker personally - IMHO, he's a good guy! The poster was not an impostor - he's the real deal!

I've been exchanging e-mail with him throughout the period this thread has been active and he provided some of the information I posted to help inform hikers about BMECC's evolving policies and the rationale for them.

He's done much to improve 501 Shelter and its caretaker's residence, a fact hikers who've been there only once would not know.

This thread seems to have run its logical course. As far as I know, club members have nothing more to add.

Jeff
07-05-2009, 17:08
When I went thru in 2002 the caretaker "George" was extremely pleasant. Has someone new taken over the caretaker position???

emerald
07-05-2009, 17:30
When I went thru in 2002 the caretaker George was extremely pleasant. Has someone new taken over the caretaker position?

There've been two caretakers at PA 501 since your visit. George continues to volunteer with BMECC in other ways presently as a board member and as our trailsmaster. He's a 2000 miler and former AT Corridor Committee chairman.

Our current caretaker at PA 501 is named Ron. He also serves on BMECC's board. As pointed out previously, he has a military background and worked several seasons as a DCNR ranger.

BMECC's Eckville caretaker, Mick, has two AT through hikes to his credit and has accumulated quite a few seasons of experience at Eckville.

jwalden
07-07-2009, 14:42
Hmm, how about some balance for all the complaining...

The caretaker at Eckville last year was clearly not the most gregarious person around, but he was pleasant enough in my minimal interactions with him (I didn't mind that he wasn't intent on being a conversationalist, after all he sees hundreds of us every year so we're hardly novel), including when he briefly showed us his dog and the fruits (pears?) on the tree in his yard. He gave the few of us there that night some flavored ice as well. I asked about the ice cream sign as my 2007 companion claimed it was there, he said it'd been wrong for years. (With luck it won't be wrong next year if ALDHA updates for the notes I gave them at Trail Days this year.) So it goes, no big deal, AYCE in Hamburg the next day anyway. :) (And did I...)

I don't actually remember seeing the 501 caretaker. The shelter was in good shape, and the half dozen or so of us there enjoyed the pizzas and sandwiches we ordered. (I included this pizza-delivery aspect in my companion notes, hopefully that won't end up erroneously being added if the current policy persists -- I assume they double-check contributed corrections.) None of us had any problems or bad interactions at all there as best as I can remember.

By the way, as far as trail clubs go I rank BMECC as third best of the trail -- I thought their shelters, road crossings, etc. were all awesome. (First was Potomac ATC for their insanely, consistently awesome shelters, no idea how they manage it at that scale; second was Dartmouth Outing Club for sheer personality in trail signs [the multicolored 2222 elevation on the one mini-mountain in their section, for example], oddball shelter designs, eccentric humor, and so on -- especially after the clinical machined signs and awkward caretaker hate-to-do-this-but-now-you-must-give-me-$8 moments of the AMC in the Whites.)

Jack Tarlin
07-07-2009, 14:56
Geez, hate to disagree, but I'd put Dartmouth DEAD LAST.

The folks who are on Cabin and Trail (i.e. the tiny fraction of DOC people who give a rat's ass about maintenance) are great people, and mean well. But there simply aren't that many of them. The DOC by and large pays little attention to Trail maintenance; it takes awhile to get things done; facilities and trail conditions suffer as a result; worst of all, they're very un-interested in any help outside the Dartmouth community. Several years ago when they were re-building Happy Hill shelter, I went over to their office and volunteered to help; I also told them I had friends who were maintainers; carpenters; glaziers; masons; bricklayers, you name it. I told them with enough notice I could get a dozen or more really great people to help on the shelter proect. I was told in no uncertain terms that they didn't want help and that it was "really important" that this remain a "student project".

End result; the new shelter wasn't completed for years.

And there's also the fact that the new shelter wouldn't have been required in the first place if the old Happy Hill hadn't been neglected and used as a bombed-out party site by the DOC for untold years.

So no, I'm not that thrilled with the DOC, or their stewardship of the Trail in these parts. Yeah, they have some interesting Trail signage.

Whoopee.

High Life
07-07-2009, 19:18
[
So no, I'm not that thrilled with the DOC, or their stewardship of the Trail in these parts. Yeah, they have some interesting Trail signage.

Whoopee.[/quote]

agreed , cool signs and not much else
and if the "dude " ranger guy at the 501 is the same guy
from 07 and 08 , he's not a bad dude at all ..
he let me charge my phone on his front stairs when i asked politely
then again i was the only person there .. idk .. i also had a sub !
but i had to go out to the road and meet the driver and there was no problems .. :cool:

mweinstone
07-07-2009, 19:55
just read only the first sentance of each post on this thread. it took like an hour. it seemed. im so frikkin bored. guess what? this threads boreing level is in perfect equilibrium with my own personal bordom. creating a sort of soothing ,...yet horribly un interesting effect. furthermoore baltimore jack tarlin is filled with strawberrie filling contraire to poulare urban legond that hes filled with chocolate moose. we , being me alone and by my self, return you now to your maby interesting thread. ill give ya that.

TD55
07-07-2009, 20:11
You can piss off some of the people all of the time, and you can piss off all of the people some of the time, but you can't piss off all of the people all of the time. Can you?

saimyoji
07-07-2009, 20:17
You can piss off some of the people all of the time, and you can piss off all of the people some of the time, but you can't piss off all of the people all of the time. Can you?


if you are zoidfu you can....i think.....its easy.....just make yourself someone else.....for a little while.....:rolleyes:

jwalden
07-08-2009, 01:36
I will agree the actual trail maintenance wasn't always the best it could have been; some of the trail north of Hanover was approaching overgrown in places, but it was far from difficult to pass. That said, otherwise I didn't have a problem with it, including with the shelters; perhaps my standards for shelters are lower than for most. Outside of many of the shelters in New York, Governor Clement Shelter, a plywood-floor shelter or two in PA, and two or three in the south, I don't recall thinking there were serious problems with any of the shelters I used (at least not outside of petty gripes like why the wooden ledge across the front of a shelter had to be far enough away to prevent comfortably sitting on the shelter floor facing it and cooking on a stove set on that ledge).

emerald
07-08-2009, 12:34
Deacon's seats are for sitting on, not for cooking on or knocking your alcohol "stove" off.

The Weasel
07-08-2009, 12:48
Yes! Thats what the world needs. More lawyers!:rolleyes:

But not more Weasels.

TW

russb
07-08-2009, 12:55
You can piss off some of the people all of the time, and you can piss off all of the people some of the time, but you can't piss off all of the people all of the time. Can you?

I'll let you be in my nightmare if I can be yours. ;)

saimyoji
07-08-2009, 14:45
But not more Weasels.

TW


Hey Russ......report immediately to the packing out your poop thread. :D

The Weasel
07-08-2009, 14:49
Hey Russ......report immediately to the packing out your poop thread. :D

You didn't even need to send me. I followed the smell! :banana
TW

saimyoji
07-08-2009, 15:00
i know....its scary. :eek:

The Weasel
07-08-2009, 15:03
i know....its scary. :eek:

That's one more reason to pack it out: If you don't create smells, The Weasel won't hunt you down. ;)

TW

JohnnyB
07-08-2009, 20:16
The vast majority of the thru hikers I've met on the trail seem to be pretty cool and considerate of others. Meanwhile, I've come across many fellow section hikers that were slobs and totally oblivious to others.

Wags
07-08-2009, 21:36
501 - past 183. much of that area is owned by the hawk mountain scout reservation. that's why there's no shelters there. at least that much makes sense to me

jwalden
07-09-2009, 14:27
Deacon's seats are for sitting on, not for cooking on or knocking your alcohol "stove" off.

Interesting; their not being intended for that purpose was...non-obvious. I don't remember ever hearing anyone mention otherwise while in a shelter, and indeed most people did use them for cooking. Thanks for giving me the name to them, always good to be able to refer to something with a precise term. (I wonder why Google doesn't have labeled pictures of it; this search result (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3386) definitely says my description conveyed what I meant. I really should have read the Poplar Ridge register when I passed by.)

I bucked the crowd and used a canister fuel stove, one which did not use the canister as a base and had much greater stability and fire-safeness than either an alcohol stove or a Pocket Rocket-style stove (greater weight, too, but I wasn't bothered enough to switch). Given that, I believe the relative danger of cooking on deacon seats was fairly minimal, all things considered.

Wags
07-10-2009, 14:03
apparently there was a brawl/fight b/t 2 hikers inside this shelter 2 days ago. had to be broken up by the ranger. and people wonder why he's not always pumping sunshine up hiker's asses

emerald
07-10-2009, 14:31
501 - past 183. much of that area is owned by the hawk mountain scout reservation.

I'm reluctant to answer this question submitted in standard WhiteBlaze form to the thread that won't go away, but I'll field it so long as it's understood I harbor little enthusiasm for the methodology.

Hawk Mountain Scout Council owns none of the AT corridor whatsoever. The nearest an AT hiker is apt to approach HMSR is when obtaining water at the spring north of Fort Dietrich Snyder Marker near PA 183.

As shelterbuilder and I pointed out earlier, with but a few exceptions, the AT passes through State Game Lands in this area. I also pointed out BMECC built and removed 4 shelters in this section of less than 25 miles over the years.

There are plenty of legal places for hikers to camp. Don't expect to see any additional shelters constructed.

mooseboy
07-10-2009, 16:26
I'm not a thru-hiker (though I hope to one day be a 2,000-miler), but have met many, and have met very few who were as obnoxious as so many here have posted.

Frankly, I'm finding this to be more of a "Damn Kids" type grumble than an actual issue...

For my 2˘, I have not yet hiked the section with the 501 Shelter, but have read about it for several years, and always had it marked with a star in my book for the future because of the availability of electricity, pizza delivery, extra comfort, etc. Be you thru- or section-hiker, you ALWAYS look forward to this kind of place, and of COURSE you will want to take advantage of any extras...

All these purists come on here and say that hikers are whining about not getting pizza or other perks... Hikers are only looking forward to these things because they have been offered here in the past, and are still listed as available. Hikers don't expect them everywhere they go!... they are a bonus, sometimes eagerly anticipated. I'm sure the 501 has been flagged in many hikers' guides as a good place to stop.

The hiker's explanation about the lost flip-flop, as well as the pizza box, sound perfectly rational to me. I recycle every day, yet if I saw separate containers for "burnable" and "recyclable", I'd be a little confused about what to do with a cardboard box, too. I don't want to downplay the great work that caretakers do, but these complaints sounded a bit petty to me.

I hate to see trail hospitality removed-- and just because a few hikers may have not followed all the rules. I'll freely admit there are always a few who will flout the rules and piss people off, but they are the exceptions. For the most part, hikers don't expect these things, but we are happy to come across them.

(There is a lot of talk on here that the thrus have been acting very "entitled" to everything-- perhaps that is true, but I've never seen it in the majority.)

Whew. Soap box over. I haven't seen as lively a discussion since the "Spike's Assault" thread...:rolleyes:

Pedaling Fool
07-10-2009, 17:17
...2˘...
I don't have a "cents" symbol on my keyboard. I copied it to a word document and it looks weird, the vertical line is slanted to the right about 10 degrees.

Frosty
07-10-2009, 17:29
(There is a lot of talk on here that the thrus have been acting very "entitled" to everything-- perhaps that is true, but I've never seen it in the majority.)That's the problem. It doesn't have to be a majority. All it takes is a few.

To take an extrme example, if a church hostel says no drugs or alcohol, and only one percent of hikers bring in drugs, that is too much. From the church's point of view, drugs are unacceptable and they will not have them on their property. So if it takes closing down the hostel in order to keep drugs out, they will.

And it is their right. Hikers have ZERO say in the decision.

Anything hikers get for little or nothing on the trail is a gift. COmplaining about not getting a gift is wrong. It doesn't matter how many guides say pizza is available. If it isn't, then it isn't. Complaining that people do not provide services for you only makes them shut down more, or be glad that they did shut down.

beakerman
07-10-2009, 17:49
...always had it marked with a star in my book for the future because of the availability of electricity, pizza delivery, extra comfort, etc. Be you thru- or section-hiker, you ALWAYS look forward to this kind of place, and of COURSE you will want to take advantage of any extras...




Ok so some book or article you have says you can get cold beer, pizza and a small oriental girl to walk on you back bare foot. When you get there and they don't have it why complain? As you said it's an "extra" and sometimes extras go away. If you wnt to keep the extras then you have to show you appreciate them. Sure most hikers are considerate and maybe even apreciateive but how many of them truely show their appreciation. I see lots of webspace dedicated here to what was percieved of as poor service but very few folks come on here and rave on about how good things were at this shelter or that trail angel. Sometimes all it takes to keep people motivates is a kind word at the right time and place.

The shelter is not a store nor is it advertized as such so why expect it to be anything other than a shelter? If anything is offered then it is a gift and you should not expect gifts.

emerald
07-10-2009, 18:24
When you get there and they don't have it, why complain? If anything is offered, then it is a gift and you should not expect gifts.

Many of today's AT through hikers get to a road crossing, whip out their menu, cell phone and expect someone to wait on them. Some don't seem to realize just because something's on a menu, it may not be available, and just because it's available doesn't mean it should be ordered.

When I wanted the kinds of services available in towns, I expected to walk to the next town or hitch-hike to a town. I remember getting up before the sun and hiking 28 miles to Dalton one day with a shower, a mattress on a floor and pizza as inspiration. Menus weren't available in 1980, but I had corroborated information from southbound hikers to guide me. It still serves a purpose today.

When through hikers reach PA 501, they arrive at a rural road crossing miles from the nearest town where BMECC maintains a shelter with a number of amenities not ordinarily available, primarily for their benefit, not much more than a day from Port Clinton or two days from Duncannon. I don't understand the need or desire to have rather ordinary town food available on-demand at a rural road crossing.

If hikers want amenities associated with towns, they should stay home or wait until they reach the next town. If they want to experience Berks County's indigenous culture, they should wait until Port Clinton and visit Deitsch Eck at Lenhartsville and have a far more meaningful and memorable experience. They might also patronize Horning's Roadside Market in Bethel, but few are willing to expend the effort required to go to these places.

warren doyle
07-12-2009, 12:30
This sense of entitlement has been increasing since the mid-80's. It is directly related to what has been going on in our 'off-trail' culture during that time. It is also directly related to the dramatic increase in 'inside' nights of a thru hike, as opposed to camping/sleeping outside in the woods.
One can avoid much of this drama, but setting a goal that one will only stay inside a shelter/hostel as little as possible during the traditional 'thru-hike' season. One can also avoid this drama by avoiding the group of hikers whose goal of going from party to party in towns along the way (Franklin; Hot Springs; Damascus; Duncannon) is of more importance to them than finishing the trail. I also feel that you can avoid this drama by avoiding hikers who are chronic blue-blazers/yellow blazers/smokers/drinkers/and drug users.

emerald
07-12-2009, 17:18
Thank you for your observation Warren. Hikers looking for a more traditional experience would be wise to consider what you just posted.

I won't be surprised if some fail to grasp how endurance hikes and supported group hikes in some ways are more consistent with with traditional AT through hikes.

superman
07-12-2009, 18:02
Thank you for your observation Warren. Hikers looking for a more traditional experience would be wise to consider what you just posted.

:banana:DLMAO:D:banana

Wise Old Owl
07-12-2009, 18:09
I'm reluctant to answer this question submitted in standard WhiteBlaze form to the thread that won't go away, but I'll field it so long as it's understood I harbor little enthusiasm for the methodology.

Hawk Mountain Scout Council owns none of the AT corridor whatsoever. The nearest an AT hiker is apt to approach HMSR is when obtaining water at the spring north of Fort Dietrich Snyder Marker near PA 183.

As shelterbuilder and I pointed out earlier, with but a few exceptions, the AT passes through State Game Lands in this area. I also pointed out BMECC built and removed 4 shelters in this section of less than 25 miles over the years.

There are plenty of legal places for hikers to camp. Don't expect to see any additional shelters constructed.

thanks for the informative post!

shelterbuilder
07-12-2009, 18:55
This sense of entitlement has been increasing since the mid-80's. It is directly related to what has been going on in our 'off-trail' culture during that time. It is also directly related to the dramatic increase in 'inside' nights of a thru hike, as opposed to camping/sleeping outside in the woods.
One can avoid much of this drama, but setting a goal that one will only stay inside a shelter/hostel as little as possible during the traditional 'thru-hike' season. One can also avoid this drama by avoiding the group of hikers whose goal of going from party to party in towns along the way (Franklin; Hot Springs; Damascus; Duncannon) is of more importance to them than finishing the trail. I also feel that you can avoid this drama by avoiding hikers who are chronic blue-blazers/yellow blazers/smokers/drinkers/and drug users.

Thank you, Warren.

It may set off a firestorm - especially given my current position as BMECC's Shelter's chairman - but sometimes I wonder if the trail would be better served without any shelters, any privies, any designated campsites - in short, NO real development beyond the clearing and marking of the footpath itself. :eek::eek::eek:

But THAT, of course, is another thread....:D

emerald
07-12-2009, 19:01
You're just trying to help close this one!:D

shelterbuilder
07-12-2009, 19:35
You're just trying to help close this one!:D

No, but I WAS hoping to hijack it!:D I'm surprised that no one took the bait....

TD55
07-12-2009, 19:39
Thank you, Warren.

It may set off a firestorm - especially given my current position as BMECC's Shelter's chairman - but sometimes I wonder if the trail would be better served without any shelters, any privies, any designated campsites - in short, NO real development beyond the clearing and marking of the footpath itself. :eek::eek::eek:

But THAT, of course, is another thread....:D

So, if this problem or alleged problem or whatever at this specific shelter is in any way due to or caused by poor caretaker training or lack of training or poor managment of any sort, that would fall on your shoulders and be your responsibility? Instead of finding a solution to a problem under your conrtrol you are suggesting channging the entire shelter and privy system of the AT? Wouldn't it be easier to just go out and get to the bottom of the problem and fix it?

shelterbuilder
07-12-2009, 20:05
So, if this problem or alleged problem or whatever at this specific shelter is in any way due to or caused by poor caretaker training or lack of training or poor managment of any sort, that would fall on your shoulders and be your responsibility? Instead of finding a solution to a problem under your conrtrol you are suggesting channging the entire shelter and privy system of the AT? Wouldn't it be easier to just go out and get to the bottom of the problem and fix it?

Actually, under the current division of responsibilities within the club, both the Rt. 501 "shelter" and the Eckville "shelter" fall under the jurisdiction of the Corridor Management Committee, since these properties are wholly-owned by the National Park Service, and their continued existence and staffing are by special arrangement with NPS and ATC. As shelters chairman, I actually have nothing to do with the care, maintainence, or staffing of these facilities.

When these two locations were brought on line, many of us began calling them "hostels", but that was frowned upon by NPS/ATC, since the term "hostel" implies a certain level of expectation with regard to amenities, and these facilities intentionally fall below that level. And the term "facility" seems rather sterile and academic, so the term "shelter" came to be applied to both locations, since it was more in keeping with our intentions: a "primitive" structure (as opposed to one with "modern" conveniences) into which one could take refuge from the elements.

The food deliveries didn't become an issue UNTIL the advent of cell phone usage on the trail, which, to me, still seems rudely out-of-place in the woods. Perhaps the real solution to this problem would be for NPS to ban the use of all cell phones on the AT!:rolleyes::D

And I STILL stand by my "thank you" to Warren....

Lone Wolf
07-12-2009, 20:11
Actually, under the current division of responsibilities within the club, both the Rt. 501 "shelter" and the Eckville "shelter" fall under the jurisdiction of the Corridor Management Committee, since these properties are wholly-owned by the National Park Service, and their continued existence and staffing are by special arrangement with NPS and ATC. As shelters chairman, I actually have nothing to do with the care, maintainence, or staffing of these facilities.

When these two locations were brought on line, many of us began calling them "hostels", but that was frowned upon by NPS/ATC, since the term "hostel" implies a certain level of expectation with regard to amenities, and these facilities intentionally fall below that level. And the term "facility" seems rather sterile and academic, so the term "shelter" came to be applied to both locations, since it was more in keeping with our intentions: a "primitive" structure (as opposed to one with "modern" conveniences) into which one could take refuge from the elements.

The food deliveries didn't become an issue UNTIL the advent of cell phone usage on the trail, which, to me, still seems rudely out-of-place in the woods. Perhaps the real solution to this problem would be for NPS to ban the use of all cell phones on the AT!:rolleyes::D

And I STILL stand by my "thank you" to Warren....

they're hardly shelters or hardly needed fo hikers. they're at roads with running water and electricity. start charging hikers to use them. or just shut them down and raize the buildings

Lone Wolf
07-12-2009, 20:13
they're hardly shelters or hardly needed fo hikers. they're at roads with running water and electricity. start charging hikers to use them. or just shut them down and raize the buildings

make that raze

fiddlehead
07-12-2009, 20:19
Once again, it all comes down to HYOH!
Cell phones are not going to go away.
Banning them is too much like removing all the shelters and is not going to happen.

It won't be long before most hikers will be spending their camp time online, doing work, watching porn, or uploading the days pictures (i guess they already do this)

Like Warren said, the best thing to do is make up your mind how you want your hike to go and make it happen. (if that means staying away from the party-ers than so be it)

There are lots of choices in our world today.
Consider yourself lucky to have them.
Don't abuse them and give it your best shot at attaining your goal.

shelterbuilder
07-12-2009, 20:31
they're hardly shelters or hardly needed fo hikers. they're at roads with running water and electricity. start charging hikers to use them. or just shut them down and raize the buildings

PRECISELY the reason why a caretaker is needed at these 2 locations - they ARE at road crossings, and would likely become "party-hardy" sites without a caretaker-in-residence.

The electricity at Eckville is incidental (it was there when NPS acquired the structures). The water at 501 is one of the few DEPENDABLE water sources on the ridgetop during a drought; water also tends to be scarce on the section north of Eckville during dry times.

Other clubs may charge fees at other locations - we do not. (BTW - some folks view the use of fees as a management tool, used mainly to discourage hikers from using a site by charging a fee for something that was previously "free".)

High Life
07-12-2009, 20:33
just read only the first sentance of each post on this thread. it took like an hour. it seemed. im so frikkin bored. guess what? this threads boreing level is in perfect equilibrium with my own personal bordom. creating a sort of soothing ,...yet horribly un interesting effect. furthermoore baltimore jack tarlin is filled with strawberrie filling contraire to poulare urban legond that hes filled with chocolate moose. we , being me alone and by my self, return you now to your maby interesting thread. ill give ya that.


crap there goes my the roy ( pre-nounced " the row E" )
that hes a creme filled lovable twinky :(
( all mis spelled on pre posee' )
to make it more interesting
meh i'll settle for strawberry ..

Lone Wolf
07-12-2009, 20:35
The water at 501 is one of the few DEPENDABLE water sources on the ridgetop during a drought; water also tends to be scarce on the section north of Eckville during dry times.



oh poor babies :rolleyes: if one chooses to hike that area in dry times they should plan accordingly. go to town and stock up

MOWGLI
07-12-2009, 22:00
Warren, good to see you posting. Since few here have your long term perspective, it is appreciated.

TD55
07-12-2009, 23:04
[quote=shelterbuilder;866957]Actually, under the current division of responsibilities within the club, both the Rt. 501 "shelter" and the Eckville "shelter" fall under the jurisdiction of the Corridor Management Committee, since these properties are wholly-owned by the National Park Service, and their continued existence and staffing are by special arrangement with NPS and ATC. As shelters chairman, I actually have nothing to do with the care, maintainence, or staffing of these facilities.

quote]

Huh? Have you ever worked for the government or been in politics? Soooo, what the heck does the shelters chairman do besides not have anything to do with care, maintenence or staffing?

YeOldeBackpacker
07-12-2009, 23:24
I have read this entire thread, Shelterbuilder and Emerald are correct on many subjects, and the only reason I feel the need to offer my insight is because we are located right between both of these shelters in Port Clinton. I know both of these caretakers, and what I think everyone is missing here is yes they do have to deal with a lot of crap from hikers, BUT on the other hand, whenever a hiker ends up at either location that needs medical care or their dog needs a vet both of these men will pick up a phone and call us and ask "hey can you meet me at I have an injured...."
We all do this, we don't ask to be compensated, we do not make a big deal about it, we do it out of kindness, and we share the expense between us, BUT I have also had hikers argue with me because the pavilon in Port Clinton does not allow booze or car camping on the property.
Does it work on your nerves when you are emptying the trash cans and a hiker allows his dog to chew holes in the bags while you clean the cans out yep, does it really really crank a person up when you tell the hiker about it and give them a bag to clean up the mess their dog made and they just walk away? you have no idea, I think that if all hikers would consider the shelters and towns as if it was where they lived instead of just passing thru, most of these problems would go away on there own.

I see hikers everyday, just leaving their trash on the porch at the post office, I see hikers throwing candy rappers on the trail, I see hikers carving there name on shelter walls and table tops, What for the love of god is wrong with you people? This HYOH is a bunch of crap, GROW UP!! treat the trail as if you are a guest, because you are, treat the shelters as if someone took the time to build them so you have a place to step out of a storm or spend the night, treat the towns you hike into with the respect they deserve, I had a guy the other day argue with one of our staff that he had to allow him to use our telephone to call pizza hut when the guy had his cell phone charging, do we allow hikers to use our phone anymore nope you want to know why? its simple all we ask is please limit your calls to 5 min, if its long distance please use a calling card, and to tell you the truth I got tired of having to say excuse you have been on our phone for 35 minutes please hang up, and at the end of the month when the telephone bill comes with over a thousand dollars of long distance calls placed by hikers, ALL of the hikers have lost that privialge now. So if Ron or Mick have taken away things like trash cans, soda machines, snacks, whatever, there is a valid reason for it, You want to complain thats great, start with the right group, the people who caused the restrictions, not the people that have to enforce them. What I think is misunderstood by a lot of the hikers is it is not anyones responsability but your own to take care of your own needs or dispose of your own trash, why should these people have to pay to have your trash hauled away for you anyway? Do you realize how frustrating it is to have to walk up to a bunch of adults and say I'm sorry but the sign you are sitting under asks that you don't do that here, so please refrain from it. What can possibly give you the impression that the rest of the world is willing to clean up after you, cater to you, offer you free food, free rides, and then clean up after you. So your hiking big deal, lots of people hike everyday, you are lucky enough to be able to thru hike good for you, but really if you want to be waited on hand and foot bring a support crew with you and have them waiting at the road crossings.
I mean really if you don't like the rules at these shelters, just roll on by, nobody made you take the blue blaze to get to them in the first place but you......

Wise Old Owl
07-12-2009, 23:59
oh poor babies :rolleyes: if one chooses to hike that area in dry times they should plan accordingly. go to town and stock up

Not quite sure why you posted that so - un-tackfully Shelterbuilder was not whining and I appreciated reading Shelterbuilder's posts.

And after the wet season we just had it won't be dry for a while.


Whoops.... Ye Old Backpacker should have had the last word... Close the thread!

fiddlehead
07-13-2009, 06:40
Well, Ye Olde Backpacker, chances are I know you to see as i am from Sch Haven.
But, you can make your rules till the cows come home, it isn't going to stop people from using cell phones on the trail and having pizzas delivered.
Go ask Valenti's down the street if they'll stop it from their end? Or Russo's.

Not saying they should litter with the results, just sayin they're gonna do it and it would be better to adjust accordingly rather than trying to stop it.

Maybe that means charging money? Maybe it means not letting them eat it on your premises, or maybe it means tearing them down if it bothers you so much.

And i've yet to see a thru-hiker with more than 1 week on the trail throwing his candy wrapper on the trail. Local hunters maybe, hikers-NO!

attroll
07-13-2009, 08:10
Enough said. Closing this thread.