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dmax
07-01-2009, 16:25
I'm trying to figure out why people do all the extra work on the trail. I understand that some people want to "give back to the trail". But why? I'm not trying to start an arguement. Just tring to understand. Wouldn't the trail be alright without the water bars. Maybe a few more rocks to walk on because of the washed away dirt but wouldn't the trail still be o.k. just like a dirt road?
And the blown down trees, couldn't a new trail be started by the hikers going around the tree. Why not just leave the tree where it fell and go around.

What made me think of this is Roan MT. Is the work being done for the people staying at the campground and lodge? Is it for the business people who spent the day at the conference center so they can walk up to the top of the bald with their loafers on?
Work was done a few years ago to ease the grade and I guess to stop errosion. Now when you go up there you have to be carefull so you don't trip over the carpet type stuff they put down. And who pays for that ugly stuff? They also say its for errosion perposes. I don't understand this either. The reason is because you can't tell where the trail was before. So I don't see the problem they were trying to fix.
And they say it is to make the grade flatter. Why? These are the mountains. If I want flat graded trails couldn't I just go walk at the beach or the mall?

Like I stated before, I don't want to start a fight with maintainers, I just don't understand all the extra work that has to be kept up with.

Rentman
07-01-2009, 16:32
You've been drinkin.................:D
Ok let's say ya stop doing maintenance on your truck, being that it's a GMC it wouldn't take long before you would be stranded on the side of the road. Same with the Trail, if it wasn't maintained it would be a real mess IMO...................:-?

dmax
07-01-2009, 16:34
I guess I don't understand what would become a mess. Some of our local trails haven't been fixed in years [except the blow downs] and they are still fine.

Lone Wolf
07-01-2009, 16:36
Same with the Trail, if it wasn't maintained it would be a real mess IMO...................:-?

not really. the northern LT sees very little maintenance. real trail for real hikers

jrnj5k
07-01-2009, 16:41
The trails are maintained so that the average person can enjoy them. Most people dont want to walk around trees into the woods a bit. I agree with you though just so you know....

Johnny Swank
07-01-2009, 16:45
Roan Mtn gets an incredible amount of foot traffic each year, far more than your local trail. Without maintenance, those trails would be an eroded mess in no time.

Now these HUGE shelters that are all the rage lately....

Lemni Skate
07-01-2009, 17:02
I think it simply depends on the amount of traffic and the area the trail is in.

I've definitely seen trails that needed some things done to them. I've seen trails disappear and I've seen them turn into creeks. I've seen other trails that once built, probably weren't going to disappear in a few hundred years.

Don't forget that some people enjoy maintaining at trail. I for one, hate walking around blow downs in Virginia as that usually means poison ivy, briars and ticks and other things. I also can't stand slogging through endless mud.

Ox97GaMe
07-01-2009, 17:57
Why do I do it? I put in the time because I enjoy being outdoors and playing in the dirt. There is also a sense of satisfaction an accomplishment when you get finished with a project. I like doing rock work. Building steps, removing trip hazards, building cribbing.

There are some aspects of trail maintenance that are not so much fun, at least for me, but come with being a maintainer. For example, I dont really like whacking weeds and briars from the trail, nor do I like hauling out other people's trash.

And then there is the other big advantage that I get..... It qualifies for tax deductions. Example.. a few years ago, I was hiking in Colorado and came across a crew working on the CDT. I spent 5 days helping them build trail. By doing so, I was able to claim airfare, rental car, hotel stay, and mileage on my taxes as deductions. I did not go out there with that intent, but it sure was a nice break in my hike and an unexpected bonus when I got my tax refund the next spring.... which I promptly used to book a flight for that summer's hiking trip. :)

Then there is the old addage.. what goes around, comes around. Doing something just because it needs to be done leads to good karma. And we can all use more of that. :)

As for whether the trail would still be there if nobody maintained it... try to hike places like the smokies or the whites where there are no trails. Some may find it fun to bushwhack, but most would not. It doesnt take long for nature to reclaim a trail in some areas if left unattended. Other areas (like above treeline), it might take decades, or centuries before all traces of the trail are gone.

MOWGLI
07-01-2009, 18:00
I'm trying to figure out why people do all the extra work on the trail. I understand that some people want to "give back to the trail". But why? I'm not trying to start an arguement. Just tring to understand. Wouldn't the trail be alright without the water bars. Maybe a few more rocks to walk on because of the washed away dirt but wouldn't the trail still be o.k. just like a dirt road?
And the blown down trees, couldn't a new trail be started by the hikers going around the tree. Why not just leave the tree where it fell and go around.

What made me think of this is Roan MT. Is the work being done for the people staying at the campground and lodge? Is it for the business people who spent the day at the conference center so they can walk up to the top of the bald with their loafers on?
Work was done a few years ago to ease the grade and I guess to stop errosion. Now when you go up there you have to be carefull so you don't trip over the carpet type stuff they put down. And who pays for that ugly stuff? They also say its for errosion perposes. I don't understand this either. The reason is because you can't tell where the trail was before. So I don't see the problem they were trying to fix.
And they say it is to make the grade flatter. Why? These are the mountains. If I want flat graded trails couldn't I just go walk at the beach or the mall?

Like I stated before, I don't want to start a fight with maintainers, I just don't understand all the extra work that has to be kept up with.

I'm doing a trail maintenance trip July 11 in the Cherokee NF near Tellico Plains. Join me, and by the end of the day, all your questions will be answered.

Summit
07-01-2009, 18:08
I'm thankful for all the trail maintainers and maintenance that is done. I believe in keeping things as natural as possible, but I remember hiking in NC and S. Virginia in the '70s and plowing mile after mile through overgrown sticker bushes choking the trail in places. Haven't seen that in a long time and very glad for it!

There are places where a blow down detour poses no problem and those usually are left to be, but there are steep, confined places where a blow down creates an unpleasant situation. I don't care much for getting down on my hands and knees in the mud to crawl under a good size tree. I love it when a crew with chain saws fixes that! :)

snowhoe
07-01-2009, 18:32
You've been drinkin.................:D
Ok let's say ya stop doing maintenance on your truck, being that it's a GMC it wouldn't take long before you would be stranded on the side of the road. Same with the Trail, if it wasn't maintained it would be a real mess IMO...................:-?

GMC= (G)ota (M)echanic (C)omin

Pathfinder
07-01-2009, 19:01
It's funny how naive people can be when they think you can just let a trail go unmaintained and have it be managable to hike on. Sections on West Baldpate have had to be re-routed because of the lack of maintenance on the waterbars. (They are on year 6 with probably 10 more years to go) A stream literally flows down the trail now. The erosion created by water flowing down the trail has sunk the trail down several feet. If people went around every blowdown there would be so many little side trails it would be ridiculous. Most of the work you see done on the trail is volunteer work from people like me. Lots of work goes into maintaining a trail, but even more work has to be put in if it ends up grown in or turns into a stream.

Tennessee Viking
07-01-2009, 19:13
I can see where dmax is coming from. Why should trails be easy enough for the ignorant tourist hiker come and walk on it, crowd it up, and trash it.

Not only do I do maintenance to give back, it can be a great social event and a chance to build muscles & learn some skills. Hardcore & the ATC crews are some of the best social reasons for maintenance. SCA crews learn skills and such.

For the point on the grade and anti-errosion techniques, you can look to the government and ATC. They set standards every so often on how steep of a grade trails can be for national trails. Back when the first trail systems were started, the easiest and quickest way to build trail was to build them straight up and over. After decades of rain, snow, and foot traffic these trails became erroded. So the standards are set that national trails have to meet certain standards for grade and errosion, so trails are now being routed to hillside with easier grades. And in some areas, it only takes one year of neglect before weeds and brush grow over the trail.

I think that forest service trails can get away with this is because if a trail becomes so walkable or erroded, they just close it down and let it grow back in.

Rentman
07-01-2009, 19:21
I can see where dmax is coming from. Why should trails be easy enough for the ignorant tourist hiker come and walk on it, crowd it up, and trash it.

Not only do I do maintenance to give back, it can be a great social event and a chance to build muscles & learn some skills. Hardcore & the ATC crews are some of the best social reasons for maintenance. SCA crews learn skills and such.

For the point on the grade and anti-errosion techniques, you can look to the government and ATC. They set standards every so often on how steep of a grade trails can be for national trails. Back when the first trail systems were started, the easiest and quickest way to build trail was to build them straight up and over. After decades of rain, snow, and foot traffic these trails became erroded. So the standards are set that national trails have to meet certain standards for grade and errosion, so trails are now being routed to hillside with easier grades. And in some areas, it only takes one year of neglect before weeds and brush grow over the trail.

I think that forest service trails can get away with this is because if a trail becomes so walkable or erroded, they just close it down and let it grow back in.
Hey TV, Me and DMAX will be passing ya by this weekend when we are hiking, just hand him a shovel and sling and he will soon get the picture. Hell we just might stop for awhile and lend a hand..............;)

dmax
07-01-2009, 20:21
No, you have no idea where I'm coming from. And I don't think tourist are ignorant. Do you?

If you say something like certain areas of trail wiil errode after 25 years of neglect and will sink 3 feet, I can deal with that and understand. But I don't mind walking down a trail when its raining and having a steam come down it. Its raining.

I also didn't know the gov sets standards.

shelterbuilder
07-01-2009, 20:40
No, you have no idea where I'm coming from. And I don't think tourist are ignorant. Do you?

If you say something like certain areas of trail wiil erode after 25 years of neglect and will sink 3 feet, I can deal with that and understand. But I don't mind walking down a trail when its raining and having a steam come down it. Its raining.

I also didn't know the gov sets standards.

Actually, if a stream is coming down the trail, it'll erode in substantially less than 25 years. But waterbars (to divert the flow off of the footpath) or rock steps on really steep sections will stop this from happening.

I'm no expert on rockwork - I need constant supervision :D - but it does give me a warm, fuzzy feeling when I return to an area where I've done some work and see how it improves the footpath. And as for "regular" trail maintenence - if blowdowns were never removed and brush never cut, the trail would soon disappear, and I, for one, don't really want to go bushwhacking when I hike the AT.

Just sayin'....

Dances with Mice
07-01-2009, 20:42
I'm trying to figure out why people do all the extra work on the trail. Because chicks dig it.

Lauriep
07-01-2009, 20:48
A steep trail without proper erosion-prevention devices will become gullied. As the soil wears away, small loose pebbles will line the sloped treadway, then larger loose stones that make for unpleasant and increasingly hazardous hiking conditions. Eventually that section will have to be abandoned and rerouted, or a huge amount of manpower (and skill) will be required to rehabilitate it (adding check dams or steps).

Laurie P.
ATC

dmax
07-01-2009, 20:51
Thanks Lauriep,... As I first stated in my original post...I'm trying to figure out and I don't understand. It is an answer like this that helps.

Cabin Fever
07-01-2009, 21:44
Ask anybody that hikes through trail after an ice storm or after the remnants of a hurricane came through if they appreciate trail maintenance?

dmax - As for the balds and the geotextile that is under the footpath... That is there to keep the rock in place which in turn keeps the trail from becoming a ditch. Walk up the side trail to Grassy Ridge and you see what happens when the geotextile and gravel isn't there. We (TEHCC) have plenty of opportunities for you to come out and work instead of lolly gagging on the weekends. It would do you some good to spend some time with some our maintainers that have thousands of hours of service.

sarbar
07-01-2009, 21:50
Out here if a trail isn't maintained it either blows out from water damage, has a billion old growth trees plopped all over, or worse..when a tree falls the root ball rips out the soil..in the trail, leaving a hole.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/NWHikergirl/Rainier/Ipsut4.jpg

The above and below show what happens after a "Pineapple Express" comes through after an early snow. Everything melts then blows out to the Puget Sound.
This was after they did a reroute just so people could get through!
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/NWHikergirl/Rainier/Ipsut7.jpg

And another example when trees go falling in windstorms:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/NWHikergirl/Rainier/Today5.jpg

Much of the trail work in Washington is done by the WTA and is all done by members who volunteer their time and backs :) If not by them, then the Backcountry Horsemen come in to do cleanups.

Trails like the Wonderland have work done yearly. Washouts, bridges blow out not only yearly but often a couple times in summer - due to surges from rains.

Deadeye
07-01-2009, 22:11
A nice trail only needs to be 18" wide, and proper drainage helps keep it that way. Without maintenance, the folks that don't want to get their feet muddy will walk along the sides, or around that tree or rock, etc. Eventually (actually pretty quickly) you have a "braided trail", much like some rivers in Alaska, where there are multiple footpaths following the same general direction.

The tree that everyone used to walk by on only one side is now surrounded by paths, and the root system is damaged by the compacted soil. The tree dies, the root system that held the soil in place dies, the soil washes away. Soon, instead of a narrow footpath, you have a 20 foot wide rockslide. The rocks are slippery when wet, so everyone walks along the side, using trees for support, compacting more roots, widening the slide even more. It gets pretty ugly. And that loose soil - it winds up choking that nice trout stream.

That's only the tip of the iceberg.
That's why we maintain trails.

Plus, the chicks DO dig it.

And thanks for walking in the middle of the trail - that's the best thing.

RAT
07-01-2009, 23:45
When I first started doing trail maintenance on my section some 20 yrs ago, it had not had hardly any regular maintaining work done on it for about 14 years due to it being the longest driving distance away from most of the CMC trail workers at that time and due to its length, steepness, and inaccessiblity so needlesstosay it was pretty rough hiking, mega blowdowns to crawl across and make your way around on really steep sidehill, was full of woody growth, stinging nettles over waist high, huge briars, and very much eroded with no waterbars and lots of roots to trip over.

After a few years of hard work by the Rat Patrol crew and two new relos put in by the Konnarock crews with much help from us and the CMC, along with above standard work such as selective cutting leaving ferns to grow to choke out weeds, handsnipping roots and woody growth and keeping the weeds cut on a regular basis, and installing many waterbars and check dams, silt bars, steps and such, it is now a very pleasant but still wildernessy section to hike. I can show you the old AT that has not gotten any work done on it for a few yrs that we use for short cuts and such that is nearly completely gone as nature reclaims what was hers very quickly.

I too enjoy being outdoors and working on the trail for physical excercise and to meet the hikers as they come through and almost all are VERY appreciative of the work we do and go out of their way to thank us as they have obviously hiked somewhere before that had low maintenance and appreciate a nice clean trail.

Next time you sit on a privy that does not have poo all the way to the rim,,,,,thank a maintainer ;) (yes one of the dirty jobs we do)

Don't get me wrong, I agree that we do tend to make it too easy and tend to 'coddle' the hikers but the big picture shows that trail work is needed and the trail would turn to crapp quickly without it. If you want that rough of a trail, I suggest you find a different one and not the AT where there are govt. (ATC) standards on exactly how it is to be maintained.

I was out cutting annual growth one year that was very high (back when we had more rainfall) and some guy came along and fussed at us for making a mess on the trail as he was upset he had to walk over the fresh cut weeds ! That wasn't you was it ? lol I told him just wait, that further up the trail where the stinging nettles were nearly head high and him hiking in shorts with no gaiters, that he would appreciate the work we were doing, but I don't think he got it.

I have seen the trail from Carvers Gap to Grassy ridge become a gully in no time from the massive foot traffic it gets many times as the trail has to be moved around over the years and I really appreciate the work that is being done there now to prevent this. Hats off to those that have made that possible. It is looking very nice.

I have worked with several legends in the trail work world, have about 10 Konnarock yearly t shirts and have learned many skills in regards to trail work as it requires different methods for each section and areas and I enjoy being in the woods and seeing the accomplishments and YES CHICKS DIG IT !!!!!!

If you don't like our well maintained trails, quit yer bitchin' and go hike elsewhere !

HAIRNT !

Tennessee Viking
07-02-2009, 08:24
When I first started doing trail maintenance on my section some 20 yrs ago, it had not had hardly any regular maintaining work done on it for about 14 years due to it being the longest driving distance away from most of the CMC trail workers at that time and due to its length, steepness, and inaccessiblity so needlesstosay it was pretty rough hiking, mega blowdowns to crawl across and make your way around on really steep sidehill, was full of woody growth, stinging nettles over waist high, huge briars, and very much eroded with no waterbars and lots of roots to trip over.

After a few years of hard work by the Rat Patrol crew and two new relos put in by the Konnarock crews with much help from us and the CMC, along with above standard work such as selective cutting leaving ferns to grow to choke out weeds, handsnipping roots and woody growth and keeping the weeds cut on a regular basis, and installing many waterbars and check dams, silt bars, steps and such, it is now a very pleasant but still wildernessy section to hike. I can show you the old AT that has not gotten any work done on it for a few yrs that we use for short cuts and such that is nearly completely gone as nature reclaims what was hers very quickly.

I too enjoy being outdoors and working on the trail for physical excercise and to meet the hikers as they come through and almost all are VERY appreciative of the work we do and go out of their way to thank us as they have obviously hiked somewhere before that had low maintenance and appreciate a nice clean trail.

Next time you sit on a privy that does not have poo all the way to the rim,,,,,thank a maintainer ;) (yes one of the dirty jobs we do)

Don't get me wrong, I agree that we do tend to make it too easy and tend to 'coddle' the hikers but the big picture shows that trail work is needed and the trail would turn to crapp quickly without it. If you want that rough of a trail, I suggest you find a different one and not the AT where there are govt. (ATC) standards on exactly how it is to be maintained.

I was out cutting annual growth one year that was very high (back when we had more rainfall) and some guy came along and fussed at us for making a mess on the trail as he was upset he had to walk over the fresh cut weeds ! That wasn't you was it ? lol I told him just wait, that further up the trail where the stinging nettles were nearly head high and him hiking in shorts with no gaiters, that he would appreciate the work we were doing, but I don't think he got it.

I have seen the trail from Carvers Gap to Grassy ridge become a gully in no time from the massive foot traffic it gets many times as the trail has to be moved around over the years and I really appreciate the work that is being done there now to prevent this. Hats off to those that have made that possible. It is looking very nice.

I have worked with several legends in the trail work world, have about 10 Konnarock yearly t shirts and have learned many skills in regards to trail work as it requires different methods for each section and areas and I enjoy being in the woods and seeing the accomplishments and YES CHICKS DIG IT !!!!!!

If you don't like our well maintained trails, quit yer bitchin' and go hike elsewhere !

HAIRNT !
Let me guess you had the High Rocks/Little Bald areas coming off of Big Bald, and worked on the old stateline route to around Spivey Gap. Hats off to ya.

CowHead
07-02-2009, 09:05
I say hats off to trail maintainers, they need or time, money and on occasion elbow grease

Slosteppin
07-02-2009, 10:14
I put in lots of time maintaining and building the North Country Trail in Michigan.
There are 2 reasons for trail maintenance; the most recognized is to make it easier for hikers, the real and most necessary reason is to protect the environment.

A well designed, properly laid out and properly constructed trail will require much less maintenance than many older trails.

Slosteppin

Tilly
07-02-2009, 10:22
Hi Sloesteppin, I can say from experience that you do a fantastic job on the NCT.

Thank you all maintainers for your hard work on the trails.

Why do people think that all the trails are for "serious" hikers????? What's wrong with dayhikers? Sectioners? Most AT users are NOT thru's.

Oh, and I know I'll get flamed, but THANK GOD FOR ALL THE SHELTERS!!!!!!!!!
They have saved my hike and sanity.

flemdawg1
07-02-2009, 10:42
2 weeks ago I hiked in the Sipsey Wilderness. I tried to follow an "official" FS trail that hadn't seen much maintenance in a decade. The 4 mile trail disappeared after a 1/4 mile and I was left bushwacking through briars, poison ivy and holly bushes. I definately learned to appreciate the work the maintainers do.

pyroman53
07-02-2009, 11:01
Another reason to keep trails maintained (and not eroding), is to keep all that soil out of the streambeds where it clogs the system and leads to more negative effects downstream. Just like when you have a child, you have a responsibility to see that child is nutured and taken care of, if you build and use a trail, you "own" the responsibility to keep it from eroding.

weary
07-02-2009, 13:57
I took over the maintenance of three miles of the trail system on Whitecap 35 years or so ago after hiking with my two boys, ages 10 and 11, and finding it so overgrown the trail was almost impossible to find. A previous maintainer had regularly removed the blowdowns but had neglected cutting back the brush, which then had almost totally obscured the footpath.

I had called the overseer of that section to complain. He responded, "why don't you take over that section." I did. It took me several years to reopen the sections to reasonable standards. Branches from fir trees had spread across the trail. I couldn't even see where the stems began. And each had to be cut back to the trunk. I finally finished the job on a snowy Thanksgiving weekend.

Most of the high elevation trails in Maine would become equally impassable if left without maintenance. Maine has a wet climate and the precipitation is usually spread evenly among the 12 months, ideal condtions for growing trees. (I hope this equal spread makes an exception this year. June had nearly 9 inches of rain. Spread out evenly over a year would make 108 inches for the year -- three times our normal rainfall.)

Weary

Ladytrekker
07-02-2009, 14:30
I work on the Florida Trail and our trail maintenance is minimal to keep the growth intact. What we do is once a year during the fall we mow the footpath for large weeds so that the path is noticeable enough to stay on it. We lop or trim the overhanging limbs in the path again to make the trail noticeable and clear of harm. We then paint and refresh the orange blazes. Our main concern is to keep people that want to walk the trail on the path so that they do not get lost.

Ladytrekker
07-02-2009, 14:32
To add to this conversation last year we had over 60,000 vounteer man hours of maintenance on the Florida Trail. We also build small wood bridges, platforms if needed to cross some of the areas and shelters.

RAT
07-02-2009, 23:37
Yep, thanks Tennessee Viking :)

THEmapMAKER
07-03-2009, 00:09
I am very thankful for the trail maintainers. There is a local trail near my house that is hardly maintained. I live in Delaware. I have hiked on it in the fall/winter and it was nice. I hiked on it last week after we had a month of strait rain and the nice dirt trail I hiked on in the fall/winter was now knee high weeds and I was covered in ticks when my hike was over. After that hike I gained a greater appriceation (spelling) for trail maintainers. Last year my father I got lymes disease after backpacking a lesser know trail in NJ.

Blue Jay
07-03-2009, 10:01
The original question is a perfect example of why humans are so completely #@&% up. So many think everything wonderful just happens. True, nature provides beautiful things on its own, however someone has to protect it from such humans or it's gone forever.

Rain Man
07-03-2009, 11:38
... The 4 mile trail disappeared after a 1/4 mile and I was left bushwacking through briars, poison ivy and holly bushes. I definitely learned to appreciate the work the maintainers do.

Apparently some think that makes you a wimp.

But you know, I think dmax may be onto something. I mean, if it'd work for trails, why not for sidewalks, roads, airports, harbors, and the like?! Real men wouldn't mind a few potholes here and there, a few bridges washed out, a few rough landings, nor running aground now and again. Besides, it's not as if there are any off-trail wilderness opportunities for hiking through briars, poison ivy, and holly bushes if that's what they really do prefer.

Yeah, that's quite an astounding idea! :D

Rain:sunMan

.

Nean
07-03-2009, 12:48
As a former maintainer and someone who finds it almost impossible to walk by, over, or around small trees, big limbs, rocks or trash whenever I'm on a trail- I think of it as common sense.:) As our poster pointed out- common might be the wrong word.:rolleyes:

But I was wondering why people maintain their health, brush their teeth, etc. And whats w/ cleaning your clothes, house, etc. And could someone tell me WHY folks change the oil in their cars?!?:eek: Seems like such a waste of time and effort.:-? I used to wonder why people wiped their rear ends but then I discovered...... it was just an excuse ......to litter!:banana

Dogwood
07-03-2009, 19:54
No, the trails would not survive everywhere if there was no maintenance on them. In a few(2-3 yrs.) years parts of the trail would become so overgrown or eroded there would not be a noticeable trail. If you read Earl Schaffers accounts of his first thru-hike he says the woods had reclaimed parts of the AT after only a few years of neglect when popularity of the AT waned. Doing trail maintenance anywhere/somewhere is one of the best ways to support hiking!

Dogwood
07-03-2009, 20:02
I am also very thankful for all the trail maintainers, but I think the best way to say "thank you" is to get out there and do some maintenance yourself. There never seems to be enough trail maintainers, but a whole lot of hikers who make empty promises of doing maintenance someday/somewhere/sometime. Often that day never arrives. Doing trail maintenance will help you appreciate all the hard work, largely volunteers, accomplish! Do trail work and never again will you leisurely pass by all those water bars, stone and wooden steps, bridges, and cleared trails.

wrongway_08
07-03-2009, 20:08
I just enjoy fixing the trail, its good/fun work. Just like cleaning trash from the local park, makes the place look nice and hey - it beats sitting on your ass watching tv.

johnnybgood
07-03-2009, 20:20
Here's a big:clap for all the maintainers of the AT and all trails that suffer from erosion , blowdowns and the like.

You guys & gals deserve lots of credit . I'm seriously thinking about contacting my nearest chapter and volunteering one weekend a month.

Cookerhiker
07-03-2009, 21:08
....Next time you sit on a privy that does not have poo all the way to the rim,,,,,thank a maintainer ;) (yes one of the dirty jobs we do).......

Thanks to you and the CMC Rat. On my October 2004 section hike from Allen Gap south to Wallace Gap, I had noted that the Groundhog Shelter privy was nearly full. So as I'm hiking south the next day - another drippy, foggy, drizzly, & damp-cold day - who did I meet but 4 guys from the CMC enroute to the Shelter to dig a new privy. I thanked them at the time, I thanked them in my journal (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=84054), and I thank them now.

Personally, I signed up for Trail Maintenance of a SNP section 4 years ago as a very belated way of giving back for all the pleasure of 30+ years of hiking in the Park. Regretfully, I had to give it up last month due to my relocation farther away from PATC-land. Anyway, the section was only 2.2 miles but with a 900' ascent in 1.5 miles (numerous waterbars) and lots of sun exposure (requiring 2-3 weedwackings per year), the need for maintenance was critical.

Lauriep
07-04-2009, 08:42
Trail crews (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/crews) provide a great opportunity for doing volunteer work on the A.T. if you don't live close by. There are six crews that do work on every part of the A.T., with base camps in TN, Virginia, PA, Vermont, and Maine.

You not only get the satisfaction of giving back and the opportunity to make a piece of the A.T. your home a week, but you often learn trail-building or rehab skills you can take back to your local area. And you earn a really cool, prestigious t-shirt you can wear with great pride!

(This is not directed at CookerHiker, who I know has already paid his dues :-))

Thru-hikers (because they are strong and tough) are especially welcome on Trail crews, and are particularly sought after for the S.W.E.A.T. crew in the Smokies (which requires a big climb with heavy tools before the work even start).

For volunteer opportunities of all types, check out our new on-line searchable database at http://www.appalachiantrail.org/volunteer (click on "SEARCH for volunteer opportunities on the A.T.") Volunteering on the A.T. is not all about heavy tools and muscle power. Some jobs require brain power, computer skills, people skills, or an interest in science--whatever your interests, there's probably something for you to do.

Laurie P.
ATC

dmax
07-04-2009, 20:06
I went on an overnighter from Carvers Gap to 19E and spent the night at Doll Flats. I tried paying close attention to the work that has been done on the trail. I also did this hike with some who has helped make and maintain a trail.

First off I would like to thank everybody for their hard work that they put in on the trail.

It was sure nice that my toes didn't slam the front of my shoes on the down hill walk to Stan Murray Shelter. I met a few of the maintainers on their way to work on some more relocation. I guess that was to help out with the remaining steep part. I was worried about running into TN Viking. I wanted to shake his had but figured I'd probably get tied to a tree and have honey poured all over me.

Well, anyway, Thanks for all your hard work!!!

dmax
07-04-2009, 20:12
Here is the only picture I got of the maintainers camp. Too bad they all couldn't have been there for a picture.
6553

pahillbillybear
07-04-2009, 23:01
nor do I like hauling out other people's trash. Only one person, that I noted said anything about trash. In WV the rivers and creeks in the hills flood fast and frequently. Yeah, when the trail follows the water, this results in erosion. But it also means that the trash from the Bozos property 50 miles upriver who doesn't give a crap about the trail washes onto the trail. Everyone can, and should, be a trail maintainer. Bring along a small bag and pick up a bit of trash while you walk.

RAT
07-08-2009, 18:55
Thanks to you and the CMC Rat. On my October 2004 section hike from Allen Gap south to Wallace Gap, I had noted that the Groundhog Shelter privy was nearly full. So as I'm hiking south the next day - another drippy, foggy, drizzly, & damp-cold day - who did I meet but 4 guys from the CMC enroute to the Shelter to dig a new privy. I thanked them at the time, I thanked them in my journal (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=84054), and I thank them now.

Personally, I signed up for Trail Maintenance of a SNP section 4 years ago as a very belated way of giving back for all the pleasure of 30+ years of hiking in the Park. Regretfully, I had to give it up last month due to my relocation farther away from PATC-land. Anyway, the section was only 2.2 miles but with a 900' ascent in 1.5 miles (numerous waterbars) and lots of sun exposure (requiring 2-3 weedwackings per year), the need for maintenance was critical.

You are very welcome, I am sure I know those guys ! Thanks for volunteering.

Tennessee Viking
07-21-2009, 14:16
I went on an overnighter from Carvers Gap to 19E and spent the night at Doll Flats. I tried paying close attention to the work that has been done on the trail. I also did this hike with some who has helped make and maintain a trail.

First off I would like to thank everybody for their hard work that they put in on the trail.

It was sure nice that my toes didn't slam the front of my shoes on the down hill walk to Stan Murray Shelter. I met a few of the maintainers on their way to work on some more relocation. I guess that was to help out with the remaining steep part. I was worried about running into TN Viking. I wanted to shake his had but figured I'd probably get tied to a tree and have honey poured all over me.

Well, anyway, Thanks for all your hard work!!!I wouldn't do that. lol But thats a good idea for trail vandalizers.

When did your group hit Stan Murray Shelter? We were just 50 feet from the trail.

Hoop Time
09-21-2009, 09:33
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/8/2/3/4/ki0ehbruchwt_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=36486&c=683)

That is ki0eh cutting brush on the Mid State Trail in Pa. That is what a trail looks like after just a few months of not being maintained. You need trail maintenance because trails through nature are not natural, they are man-made. If not cared for, they go away.

russb
09-21-2009, 11:56
Before I respond, I have done my part (and continue to do so) of trail maintenance, albeit not on the AT.

That said, I believe I understand the spirit of the original question and my answer is because of people. The more any type of thoroughfare gets used, the more damage caused by those using it and thus requires more maintenance. There are many "trails" that I hike which are no more than a historical footpath used for centuries and have zero maintenance. In many cases you cannot see the path. This is not a bad thing, the concept of a travel route was not a specific line x-feet wide that must be foolowed, it was a general course to get from A to B. Obstacles encountered are intended to be walked around. Beaver activity, floods, rock-falls, downed trees do not block the path, they simply reroute it. These are not blazed, except for possible other human signs along the way; a historical campfire circle for example.

The AT and many of the other trails are not this type, nor can/should they be. The amount of traffic they see requires a more "durable" surface. These trails are also blazed so that people know where to follow to avoid obstacles. etc...

Even within our paved surfaces we have different levels of maintenance due to traffic volume. There are dirt roads, some with little if any signage, all the way to 8-lane highways with lighted signs.

As an aside, a neat thing to do is look at the old topographic maps which have trails marked and then look at the newest and see which ones no longer exist. These are fun to re-explore. Be warned, you will not be following a maintained trail, but you will discover some neat places rarely visited as they are literally off the beaten path.

The Weasel
09-21-2009, 13:37
russb is precisely correct in all that he says.

There is a legitimate point of view, however, that the AT may be over-maintained in some cases. Blazing is perhaps more extensive than is necessary, especially since the trail tread is pretty obvious. Some of the reroutings aren't always necessary (they may be nice, and even useful or easier, but not necessary) and perhaps the goal should not be as much to encourage people to walk it as to permit them to do so. If, for instance, the AT (and other trails) exist to help people appreciate nature and its wonders, downfalls are part of that, as are fords and washouts. Many (if not most) National Wilderness Areas do not permit trail maintenance, which makes them feel wilder and more delightful. I'm minded of a 500' hillside washout in Otter Creek Wilderness Area (in WV) which meant two things: First, that you had to follow the naturally-created reroute down, along, and up; and second, that not only people, but nature too, changes our planet.

Yes, the AT needs maintenance. Perhaps some trail clubs will consider whether some of it can be reduced a bit as a way of enhancing the AT.

TW

SassyWindsor
09-21-2009, 15:38
Remove the whiteblazes from the trees while you're at it. Won't need'em without trail maintenance.

In a short while an AT thru-hike will take 2 years to complete, if then. And you'll continually run into S&R folks trying to find lost hikers.

Jester2000
09-21-2009, 17:58
Remove the whiteblazes from the trees while you're at it. Won't need'em without trail maintenance.

In a short while an AT thru-hike will take 2 years to complete, if then. And you'll continually run into S&R folks trying to find lost hikers.

Well that was sassy.

Dances with Mice
09-21-2009, 18:23
There is a legitimate point of view, however, that the AT may be over-maintained in some cases. Blazing is perhaps more extensive than is necessary, especially since the trail tread is pretty obvious.
...in summer.
Some of the reroutings aren't always necessa) exist to help people appreciate nature and its wonders, downfalls are part of that, as are fords and washouts.Yeah, a lot of relos are just done by the maintainers for grins and giggles, fun and exercise.
Many (if not most) National Wilderness Areas do not permit trail maintenance, which makes them feel wilder and more delightful. I'm minded of a 500' hillside washout in Otter Creek Wilderness Area (in WV) which meant two things: First, that you had to follow the naturally-created reroute down, along, and up; and second, that not only people, but nature too, changes our planet.And how much of the AT is in a National Wilderness Area? Serious question. The GA AT passes through several wilderness areas that limit maintenance to hand tools (no chainsaws or string trimmers). But on a steep sidehill with a blowdown there is no way I could agree that impromptu routes would help rather than hurt the area. Nope. Been there, seen that. Flat areas, maybe so maybe no.
Yes, the AT needs maintenance. Perhaps some trail clubs will consider whether some of it can be reduced a bit as a way of enhancing the AT. Yeah, hell, after all most of them are just out there looking for ways to stay busy.

Besides, chicks dig it.

weary
09-21-2009, 22:02
No, you have no idea where I'm coming from. And I don't think tourist are ignorant. Do you?

If you say something like certain areas of trail wiil erode after 25 years of neglect and will sink 3 feet, I can deal with that and understand. But I don't mind walking down a trail when its raining and having a steam come down it. Its raining.

I also didn't know the gov sets standards.
Nor do I. I maintained bits of the AT in the so called "100-mile-wilderness" in Maine for 35 years or so. No government inspector ever called.

My overseer -- a volunteer like myself -- complained occasionally when I did a sloppy job. And when it became my turn to oversee, I occasionally told some of my 23 maintainers to shape up.

But government never once intruded. Many miles of the trail in Maine wouldn't meet any rational criteria for steepness, had government intervened during the two decades that two-thirds of the Maine section of the AT was being relocated. Well government played a small role. Congress had offered to finance a protected footpath along the ridgeline of the Appalachians, and set a date certain for a permanent location.

MATC took note of the deadline and the word "ridgeline" and determined that by gorry the AT in Maine would follow the ridgeline as best we could manage it. Where do you think the expression "PUDS" originated?

Besides, the logging roads that Myron Avery usurped when he found some peaks were too rough for him to handle, were wanted by the landowners that needed them for hauling pulp wood.

So we designed a trail that followed the summit ridges. Government didn't even complain when we crawled a trail over Moody Mountain, though when I first saw the trail over Moody 20 years ago, I said to myself, "Someday this trail is just going to fall right off this mountain." It did. A couple of years ago. We are still figuring out a plausible alternative.

Weary

The Weasel
09-21-2009, 22:42
Dances ----

I don't think the snarky attitude is necessary. I'm very grateful to the women and men who do trail maintenance, and since I'm not able to be involved in their decisions (or the ones that are made for them), I'm not criticising them. But my point here is appropriate: Trail maintenance is necessary and useful, but in some cases, more than necessary. Frequently? No. Sometimes? Yes.

For instance, in a graded trail going around the side of hills and small valleys, where the treadway is obvious in summer OR winter (because the only alternative is to climb up a hillside or down it), there isn't a need for blazes constantly. Equally, white blazes aren't ideal in winter (as many have noted elsewhere now and then).

My point about Wilderness Areas wasn't how wonderful it is for trail maintainers (it's not, since lack of power tools makes the same work harder) but to show that there are legitimate ways to reduce some maintenance. As someone else above notes, there really isn't anything wrong with leaving a downfall for some to go over, others under, and most to create a small re-route. That's part of the charm of trails.

And while most reroutings make sense and are even essential, there are parts of the AT that have been rerouted that change some of the nature of the trail. A post elsewhere in the last few days tells me that Albert Mountain's climb is now gone; I valued that moment of getting to the top. Now it's gone. Perhaps it was essential, but perhaps not. There are other places where I've gone past obvious re-routes and seen them rejoin the trail, to avoid steep climbs or other situations that weren't really problems. Perhaps - perhaps - those could have been left as is.

Much of it is sort of like the "Field of Dreams" problem: If you build it, they will come. If you make it easier, more will come. If you want more, then, make it easier or more accessible. But then it's not the same trail. That may not be bad, or good; it IS different.

TW

Connie
10-23-2009, 14:58
Nice thread.

Trails may quickly become so "overgrown" they are no longer trails.

That said, I have seen some real hatchet-jobs on otherwise very beautiful trails.

Yes, hatchets were used.

When I went out, I had my handy tree limb "lopper". It is a "professional lopper" with a deep anvil hook.

It looks a lot like this one: Corona 36 inch Heavy Duty Professional Bypass Lopper Model No. WL 6481http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s197/geekgrrl_2007/lopper.png

Maybe a little longer and slimmer.

I carried it in a leather rifle scabbard, because East Slope Backcountry Horsemen have a contract with the U.S. Forest Service for trail maintenance there, and so, I had to go horseback.

Between the hardware store owner, and I, we trimmed small "wet" overgrowth off one entire trail before lunch.

We also had to trim bigger stuff (e.g. limbs, branches) overhanging another trail.

Between the "green saw" (cuts on the pull stroke) and the "lopper" we took turns and neither one of us had a backache at the end of the day, or the next.

I have these tools, because my family history includes "tree dressers".

I happen to think a tree likes a little pruning, when it needs it.

I also happen to think "people are part of nature".

weary
10-23-2009, 17:09
My role in life these days is mostly to encourage people -- especially young people -- to get out and enjoy the outdoors. Most people need maintained trails and good maps before they will venture into the hills and woodlands.

So since mid July I've lead groups that moved 100 4" by 6" by 8' timbers (weight 60 pounds each) to build bog bridges, and a wooden path around a beaver flowage. We've also cut the brush that had obscured three miles of trails.

I've also published a tabloid size guide to the 31 miles of hiking trails in my town, prepared new maps, built a trail head map box, and persuaded 40 high school students to spend a half day in the woods with loppers clearing brush.

The work is continuing. This evening I'm going to order another 32 bog bridge timbers from a one-man saw mill up the road. We still have many miles of overgrown trails.

Why all this work? People who study such things say most people need to experience trails by their teenage years, or they never become interested in preserving what little wildness that remains.

It's important to make trails attractive. Though not everyone agrees. When a new sign went up directing walkers to a wild lake and adjacent trails, a land trust member complained, "I hate to see that area become a thoroughfare. It's so pretty and isolated now."

I know the feeling. I also at times "hate" what I'm doing. But it's important to continue, nevertheless.

Weary

Wise Old Owl
10-23-2009, 17:42
Great post Cabin Fever!

The (Only) time Trail maintainence got out of control was when they used a micro stone chip to the top of a hill in Lancaster, my dog's feet got cut up. I thought the "Longwood Gardens" crew had spruced up the hill.


The Trail maintainers are most appreciated in all that they do.... I notice the hard work and I am impressed when I travel trails all over Pa,Md,NJ,NY.