View Full Version : Is a tarp/ground cloth really necessary for a tent?
ShelterLeopard
07-05-2009, 14:36
I was wondering, it a ground tarp really necessary? IOt adds a fair amount of weight to mu pack, and my tent is very waterproof, so I don't feel I need it. I have always put my tarp inside my tent to make sure of the waterproof-ness of it, but I realize now that usually people use tarps on the outside to protect their tents from tears and rocks- what do you think? Necessary or no?
ChinMusic
07-05-2009, 14:44
I don't use one anymore. With reasonable site selection it isn't necessary. I don't choose the ultralight flooring option when selecting a tent. Some say the ultralight flooring doesn't even need the groundcloth. I just haven't made that move.
I do take a small piece of Tyvek as a "porch" in front of my tent opening and tuck it under my tent if I suspect rain (if left in the open it can collect rain water). It is just something to keep the mud off my knees as I enter/leave the tent. I could do without it easily.
IME, the ground cloth protects the tent floor from holes and abrasion from use on less than ideal surfaces. My bp tent is thinner/lighter than the PU bathtub floor in the family camping tent, so I protect it from pine needles, rocks, squirrel droppings, briars/asst. vegetation by placing a lightweight sheet of PE/PU or silnylon under my tent floor.
If you use a tarp instead of a floored tent, the ground cloth is protecting your pad and bag from the same hazards. I don't see the downside to carrying some type of ground cloth/sheet. Your intended purpose will help determine material, size, shape and ultimately, weight.
Think of it as cheap insurance for the rest of your gear. What protection does IT require to last, however long you need it to last?
Ranc0r
.
Big Dawg
07-05-2009, 14:57
I use a ground cloth (3 mil plastic found at home depot) for my Big Agnes Copper Spur, and have w/ other tents in the past as well. I cut my ground cloth so that it's a bit smaller than my tent floor dimensions, so it only weighs 4 ozs or so. I don't use one w/ my Tarptent Double Rainbow, but that's b/c I treated both sides of the floor w/ a silicone mix that protects the floor from micro punctures, at a cost of a few ozs added to the overall tent weight.
I have heard of others who never use a ground cloth & have never had any punctures/leaks. Although I figure for 4 ozs, I'll go the slightly safer route & use my ground cloth.
ChinMusic
07-05-2009, 15:01
I found a pic of the "porch". For this trip I took a bigger piece of Tyvek to use as a groundcloth for my Airpad as I lay around the campfire. Even though I had it with me I didn't even bother to use it under the tent. I've been though absolute torrents of rain and set up in wet snow with nothing getting in the tent. Condensation is much more of an issue from above than ground water from below.
My buddy's tent, to the left, has one of the "space blankets" under it. IMO that is just wishful thinking. Anything that would damage the underside of your tent isn't going to be stopped by THAT thing.
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b186/ChinMusicIHSS/Backpacking/Pictured%20Rocks%202009/PicturedRocks112.jpg
Absolutely necessary. A ground cloth will extend the life of yout tent greatly. It protects the bottom of your tent from abrasion that gritty dirt causes. I use a mylar space blanket under my tent. It only weighs a little over one ounce, and costs about a dollar. Best investment I have ever made.
Lone Wolf
07-05-2009, 17:56
I was wondering, it a ground tarp really necessary? IOt adds a fair amount of weight to mu pack, and my tent is very waterproof, so I don't feel I need it. I have always put my tarp inside my tent to make sure of the waterproof-ness of it, but I realize now that usually people use tarps on the outside to protect their tents from tears and rocks- what do you think? Necessary or no?
no. not necessary. i never use one
no. not necessary. i never use one
yes...necessary.i always use one:rolleyes:
ChinMusic
07-05-2009, 21:42
How can one state something is "necessary" if they haven't tried going without? One can EASILY state something is NOT necessary if they have had success without.
I had used a groundcloth for years and have switched to going without a few years ago. I have the the same results BOTH ways. IME is certainly is NOT necessary.
garlic08
07-05-2009, 22:35
I don't use one. As mentioned above, with good site selection, they're not really necessary.
It's an "option", not absolutely necessary. A tent manufacturer (Shires?) wrote that although many campers use them to "protect" their tent bottoms he never has, and has never had a bottom rip, tear, hole or malfunction.
Most people replace their tents before years of wear and tear would make the bottoms serviceable anyway.
Pick your site, clear any debris and sleep in comfort.
Hoop Time
07-06-2009, 07:13
no. not necessary. i never use one
Yeah, but Wolf is pretty much impervious to damage. He had a quadruple bypass in the spring and is already back running ultras. When you are made of teflon, you need no extra protection.
Sometimes I carry one; sometimes I don't.
The only reason I don't is if I'm on a trip where there's a long time between resupplies so pack weight is already a big problem.
A Mylar or Tyvek ground cloth keeps seems to help prevent condensation from forming under me, inside the tent. That's often an issue in the southeast, where the ground is usually wet. Also, if I have to set up in a muddy place (as many of the campsites in the GSMNP are), the goundcloth keeps the bottom of the tent cleaner. I have also used it not as a groundcloth, but as a windblock, to cover mesh areas of the Tarptent during cold, windy weather.
My suggestion: try it both ways and see how it works for you and your tent in the conditions that you normally camp.
fiddlehead
07-06-2009, 09:06
This is one of those items that some think tank thought up to sell to newbies.
I can't imagine needing one. Your tent already has a floor, why does it need two?
Or, do you possibly need 3, one to protect the "footprint"? They are expensive.
I used one years and years ago under tents before I finally figured out that they weren't necessary. Now I don't even use one under my bivy. When going with just a tarp, without the bivy, I carry a small polycro sheet to keep my quilt dry/clean.
SouthMark
07-06-2009, 10:07
Just a waste.
I use one also. tent. tarp and ground cloth all rolled up as one unroll put in the pegs attach the poles and presto home in the woods..rumor has it it will extend the life of your tent floor
i use one, it has a multi-function as a landry skirt
mweinstone
07-06-2009, 14:49
it is very nessesary for folks who cant afford to replace a tent floor. if you worked for your tent and then lost your job, then saveing that floors durability by useing a heavey extra tarp under it makes sence. on the other hand if your a wild spending wastefull matthewski type and sick of your own stupidity, then live on the ground in a floorless setup like i do so you can spill food and catch fire and brownblaze all you like with no effects to your tent.. my marmot is eq coated and down filled and never is wet. ever. ever. and my tent never is clammy or stale or yuckky like the dudes tent.
Two Speed
07-06-2009, 15:05
Never used one, and don't think believe they extend the life of a tent enough to justify the expense or weight. YMMV.
jersey joe
07-06-2009, 15:56
When going out for the weekend I'll always bring one along. On my next long distance hike? I'm leaving it home.
hikingtime
07-06-2009, 16:58
I think some of you are lumping footprints, which are heavy and expensive, and are an extra add-on the salesman is trying to sell you, with light weight mylar space blankets which are light and cheap. I would never even think of going without some type of protection under my tent. This comes from over 40 years of backpacking experience. I would never waste money on a nylon footprint, but either a space blanket or 2 mil plastic will do a great job of protecting your tent from wearing out prematurely. I've seen way too many people who had to get a new floor sewn onto their tent or had to throw out the tent entirely, just because they were worried about carrying an extra ounce or two.
hikingtime
07-06-2009, 17:02
no. not necessary. i never use one
When all you do is drive around, Lone Wolf, you don't need a ground cloth. :banana
How can one state something is "necessary" if they haven't tried going without? One can EASILY state something is NOT necessary if they have had success without.
I had used a groundcloth for years and have switched to going without a few years ago. I have the the same results BOTH ways. IME is certainly is NOT necessary.
Huh? Where did you read I did not go without before I decided it WAS necessary?:rolleyes: Just my opinion,I do not know it all,like some folks.:D
ChinMusic
07-06-2009, 18:00
Huh? Where did you read I did not go without before I decided it WAS necessary?:rolleyes: Just my opinion,I do not know it all,like some folks.:D
I think the operative word was "always".......:D
yes...necessary.i always use one:rolleyes:
I think the operative word was "always".......:D
Petty are we?:rolleyes:
Look at the post right before mine,where LW posted.I was actually quoting his statement and showing there are two sides to every coin...I guess I expected too much when it comes to making sense...:D
Getting a little testy/pissy aren't we guys? :D
The key word here is "necessary." No, ground cloths/footprints are not necessary as in essential, but to some folks they make sense for added tent floor protection, while obviously for others they do not justify the weight/space they add for that purpose. I don't think either way is right or wrong, smart or stupid.
I admit to having mostly used one over the years but this little friendly discussion has got me thinking about continuing to carry it but use it for a "front porch" over-hanging my tent, using my trekking poles and guy-outs. I've been wanting to add a "front porch" so I don't have to zip the tent door down completely in the rain, but not liking the idea of adding another pound or more to have that.
My Sierra Designs footprint is certainly waterproof enough, and stronger, more durable than most tarps of similar weight. Hmmm . . . might convert my footprint to a shed-print! :)
Lone Wolf
07-06-2009, 20:31
When all you do is drive around, Lone Wolf, you don't need a ground cloth. :banana
when i drive around? where? i've spent more nights in a tent without a ground cloth by accident than you'll you'll ever think of doin' on purpose :banana
Summit said: "I've been wanting to add a "front porch" so I don't have to zip the tent door down completely in the rain, but not liking the idea of adding another pound or more to have that."
An alternative for poncho-wearers is to use a poncho for that --- the poncho has guyout points that allow a more stable structure for the "porch".. Franco, I believe, offered pics a while back of doing that with the Contrail, and I tested this out in my backyard (successfully), though I admit to never finding the desire to do so on an actual trip so far.
Obligatory thread-related comment: I use a polycro ground cloth and can btw attest to how well that stuff wears, I finally have a couple significant holes/tears in it after using it for >2000 miles last year. Lightweight and tough, I have no idea how much it actually protects my tent. I suspect for long-wear abrasion it helps, but that anything that can poke through the polycro is going to do damage to tent floor too ...
I find it particularly useful, worth carrying, for trips where I'll sometimes cowboy camp and sometimes sleep in a tent. For cowboy camping I like to spread it out to have space to put various stuff up off the dirt (sometimes dry powdery dust or the like).
ShelterLeopard
07-07-2009, 13:37
I'm definitely thinking of leaving the tarp home on my thru- I just really hope I don't tear my tent floor (I'll try to set up on leaves and grass, I suppose). If I do tear it, is it easy to repair? I've never needed to repair a tent before- will the seam sealing stuff work?
Johnny Swank
07-07-2009, 14:16
I don't bother with one. We actually put our closed cell pads UNDER the tent these days. Keeps them from flopping about during the night, and add some protection.
garlic08
07-07-2009, 23:36
I'm definitely thinking of leaving the tarp home on my thru- I just really hope I don't tear my tent floor (I'll try to set up on leaves and grass, I suppose). If I do tear it, is it easy to repair? I've never needed to repair a tent before- will the seam sealing stuff work?
I had Henry Shires Tarptents add a floor to a floorless model a few years ago and the whole job cost about $30.
I have a HS Contrail now with over 4000 trail miles on it, a lot of it in the Sonoran Desert, have never used a ground cloth, and the floor still looks nearly new. I don't even understand the need for a perfectly intact floor--so what if there are some pinholes? If a pinhole is going to ruin your night, you've pitched in the wrong place. I've spent enough nights in floorless shelters to not worry about the floor too much.
Wise Old Owl
07-08-2009, 00:15
Well, I never understood footprints, Perhaps old school, a bathtub floor is the ONLY way to go because I have experienced West Verginia ground floods, in some downpours a footprint can be a disaster for a down sleep system.
ShelterLeopard
07-08-2009, 00:36
I had Henry Shires Tarptents add a floor to a floorless model a few years ago and the whole job cost about $30.
I have a HS Contrail now with over 4000 trail miles on it, a lot of it in the Sonoran Desert, have never used a ground cloth, and the floor still looks nearly new. I don't even understand the need for a perfectly intact floor--so what if there are some pinholes? If a pinhole is going to ruin your night, you've pitched in the wrong place. I've spent enough nights in floorless shelters to not worry about the floor too much.
You sound like you've tarp-tented before, so how does it work? How can you sleep in a downpour under a tarp and not get soaked? I just don't get it. It's not like you're raised above the ground in a hammock... If tarping really works, I'd really like to try it. I just want to makes sure it works first.
garlic08
07-08-2009, 10:15
You sound like you've tarp-tented before, so how does it work? How can you sleep in a downpour under a tarp and not get soaked? I just don't get it. It's not like you're raised above the ground in a hammock... If tarping really works, I'd really like to try it. I just want to makes sure it works first.
Site selection is the key. A raised or well-drained site is critical under a tarp. You might get by with a little water running under a heavy nylon tent floor, but not with silnylon or nothing.
The larger water-shedding area of most tarps and tarptents helps keep the sleeping area drier than a tent does, in my experience, but you cannot have any drainage running through that area. It's not hard, you just need an eye for slope.
Jack Tarlin
07-08-2009, 12:09
Site selection is important, but sometimes it doesn't make any difference how careful you are picking a spot.
It POURED last night in northwestern Massachusetts, and my tent was pretty moist this morning even with a groundsheet.
Without it, tho, it would have been more than moist, it would've been a soaking.
So yeah, technically, it's not necessary to carry a footprint or groundcloth, but I think it's a pretty good idea on the A.T., where it's gonna be wet a lot of the time. Oh, and any tent manufacturer will tell you that using one will add years to the life of your tent. My Mountain Hardware is more than 12 years old, has 20,000 plus miles on it, and the floor is still in great shape. I don't think this would be true without my constant use of a groundcloth.
I can't get my pack below 30 lbs so I'll bring my groundcloth hyoh
wyominglostandfound
07-08-2009, 12:44
i don't even have a floor in my tent.
www.wyominglostandfound.com (http://www.wyominglostandfound.com)
ChinMusic
07-08-2009, 13:50
i don't even have a floor in my tent.
And that works. Tent floors don't even HAVE to be impervious to the elements. It's nice but not necessary.
ShelterLeopard
07-08-2009, 14:54
I personally am a huge fan of either having a floor in my tent, or a hammock. I just know that I'll decide to use a tarp, and that will be the beginning of the rainiest season ever... I will get soaked. Maybe I'll try tarping it up at home first...
groundsquirrel
08-12-2013, 15:41
A ground cloth, a tent floor, or even a tent isn't "necessary" under ideal camping conditions. (If you can predict when and where those conditions will occur with a high level of accuracy, you should contact NOOA's National Weather Service; they can't. :) )
If you have a tent with a floor, and you can't assure that the ground on which you set up will be free from rocks, sticks or anything that could abrade the tent's floor, a ground cloth is cheap insurance. Tyvek is light and inexpensive, and provided you know which side is "out", provides fair moisture resistance. 9ft widths are sold by the yard on eb*y.
If you don't care about the tent floor (or don't have one), a decent bivy sack can make sleeping through a damp or rainy night much more comfortable, while keeping your sleeping bag clean and dry. A pre-made one like the SOL Escape Bivy weighs approx 8oz. If that's too heavy, you can DIY. http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=6095 , trading off weight against cost, moisture resistance and condensation resistance.
groundsquirrel
08-12-2013, 15:53
You can set up a tarp as a triangular tube, folding up the edges of the bottom and ends to form a bathtub bottom. If the tarp has tabs added across the center, the supporting line can be outside, so it doesn't guide water inside.
http://www.equipped.com/tarp-shelters.htm
Most people who buy the footprint do so that they can fast pack with the fly and not carry the whole tent. I use a piece of Tyvek which I yogied from a construction site. I did write "down" so as to know which side went up. :p
groundsquirrel
08-12-2013, 16:27
Footprints and tub floor perform different, complementary functions.
A tub floor's design function is to protect the occupants, minimizing the chance of water getting through a wall/floor seam along the ground, by eliminating those seams. However, if the floor material is cut or abraded through the coating, any water that gets under the tent floor can penetrate the floor.
A footprint's function is to protect a tent bottom from abrasion. It can be waterproof (plastic film), permeable (tyvec) or porous (uncoated coarse woven fabric).
Under heavy rain conditions a waterproof or permeable footprint can trap ground runoff under the tent bottom, preventing the water from rapidly percolating into the ground. Making a footprint smaller than the tent floor prevents it from directing wall runoff under the floor and trapping it. If the tent floor coating is intact, and the floor seams taped and sealed, water trapped between the footprint and the floor is less likely to penetrate the floor. If the outer floor surface is wet, it can make for a messy packing job. A wet-packed tent can rapidly become a moldy one.
The third component of rain protection is ground runoff diversion, a combination of placement relative to foliage, uphill barriers and downhill drainage.
groundsquirrel
08-12-2013, 16:40
I'd never argue that a groundcloth doesn't help protect a tent floor from exterior wear, but age and transport miles aren't good measurements of tent life. The best predictor of useful equipment life is the level of care and maintenance it receives during, and between uses.
Use a top quality new tent once in your back yard, pack it damp, then store in in your unheated garage for 2 years. Groundcloth or not, mold and mildew with likely make that tent - floor included- leak like a sieve.
PeaPicker
08-12-2013, 17:11
Perhaps I missed the comments here,but does a footprint or groundcloth prevent or have an effect on condensation buildup in the tent ??
MuddyWaters
08-12-2013, 22:29
Perhaps I missed the comments here,but does a footprint or groundcloth prevent or have an effect on condensation buildup in the tent ??
It can.
On moist ground, you can have water vapor diffusion thru the tent bottom, which condenses on the cold roof.
Any additional barrier to that will slow the rate, and reduce the condensation.
Some floor materials, will be less prone to permeation by water vapor than others.