View Full Version : Alright, just one more time…
Pedaling Fool
07-07-2009, 14:46
Please explain to me the reason for packing out TP? I don’t get it. I can see the rational for packing out feces and TP – I absolutely don’t agree, but I can see the rationale. However, I just don’t get the packing out TP.
I’ve heard some say it’s to prevent the animals from getting a hold of it and spreading disease, blah, blah, blah. However, if you believe that, then why not pack everything out, not just the TP?
ALSO,
Did someone do a crap burying experiment to determine the six-inch rule?
I don’t believe burying your waste 6 inches will keep animals away, because the soil on the AT is very porous (especially after digging through), they’ll easily sniff it out, but who cares, that’s what animals do, that’s why they’re animals.
Please explain to me the reason for packing out TP? I don’t get it. I can see the rational for packing out feces and TP – I absolutely don’t agree, but I can see the rationale. However, I just don’t get the packing out TP.
I’ve heard some say it’s to prevent the animals from getting a hold of it and spreading disease, blah, blah, blah. However, if you believe that, then why not pack everything out, not just the TP?
ALSO,
Did someone do a crap burying experiment to determine the six-inch rule?
I don’t believe burying your waste 6 inches will keep animals away, because the soil on the AT is very porous (especially after digging through), they’ll easily sniff it out, but who cares, that’s what animals do, that’s why they’re animals.
I am in agrement with John. There is NO reason to carry out TP and poop. And let alone pee. That is just dumb.
There's a ton of crap-covered TP up in Harriman / Bear Mtn along the AT.
Animals Dig up TP and wind blows it around.
There's a ton of crap-covered TP up in Harriman / Bear Mtn along the AT.
Animals Dig up TP and wind blows it around.Until it rains and then it just sits there, ugly as all get out.
Lots of places on lots of trails have white flower gardens of toilet paper blossums. Never mind packing it out, at least get out of sight of the trail or shelter.
But my favorite is people who take care to bury their waste and TP in the snow.
Mrs Baggins
07-07-2009, 14:57
I have to agree as well. Why is it okay for animals to do it in the woods but not us? I'm not packing out anything like that. Ever. "Hey, what's in your pack?" "Oh the usual. Stove, sleeping bag, food, zip lock bag full of used s*** covered tp."
hikingtime
07-07-2009, 15:07
I like to dig a hole, go, and then burn the toilet paper in the hole. Then I fill in the hole. Works well for me.
I hate when people leave their toilet paper on the ground. I'm not sure what they are thinking, but I have seen that a lot.
Buzz_Lightfoot
07-07-2009, 15:12
I like to dig a hole, go, and then burn the toilet paper in the hole. Then I fill in the hole. Works well for me.
I hate when people leave their toilet paper on the ground. I'm not sure what they are thinking, but I have seen that a lot.
Unfortunately, some people are just slobs. I stayed at a shelter last weekend and right behind the shelter was a pile a dung and a lot of TP. 20 feet more in that direction was a nice privy. Sigh.
johnnybgood
07-07-2009, 16:32
I wish all hikers were as conscience about the 6 inch rule as they should be but unfortunately they're not.
Like Buzz I too have seen human feces where it didn't belong , not more than six inches off the trail with tp nearby.
Now that I think of it , maybe they misinterpreted the 6 rule.:confused:
What's the old saying ....you can't fix stupid.
Lone Wolf
07-07-2009, 16:41
I am in agrement with John. There is NO reason to carry out TP and poop. And let alone pee. That is just dumb.
on the AT for sure
packing out pee...?????!!!!! :eek: Sheesh
johnnybgood
07-07-2009, 16:57
packing out pee...?????!!!!! :eek: Sheesh
Is that what that Platypiss is for ? ;)
Since no one has posted any regulations or guidelines from any AT resource management agency or any related research, I thought I'd add my 2¢ to the pile too until I remembered reading somewhere it costs more than 2¢ to produce 2 cents.
By the time we're finished amassing nothing but personal opinions based in most cases upon convenience, we are sure to have created something worth reading once again. Why not just poll the membership as to what each person does, it would accomplish more.
I used those biodegradable wipes from wally world dig a cat hold and drop them in
Wise Old Owl
07-07-2009, 22:05
http://greenmartha.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/toilet_paper_terror.jpg
Hey it needed to be said I am still waiting for Water Soluble Camo colored TP!
I would buy it.
Lone Wolf
07-07-2009, 22:08
Hey it needed to be said I am still waiting for Water Soluble Camo colored TP!
I would buy it.
http://www.productdose.com/article.php?article_id=6567
where's weasy when ya need him?... he volunteers to pack out your poo... without even asking... the problem is that would suggest you hike with him... "that's okay weasy, my poo will be just fine wherever i dump it"
Here is the direct quote from the ATC website (emphasis mine):
No one should venture onto the A.T. without a trowel, used for digging a 6"-8" deep "cathole" to bury waste. Bury feces at least two hundred feet or seventy paces away from water, trails, or shelters. Use a stick to mix dirt with your waste, which hastens decomposition and discourages animals from digging it up. Used toilet paper should either be buried in your cathole or carried out in a sealed plastic bag. Hygiene products such as sanitary napkins should always be carried out.So it seems that they considering burying acceptable, as long as it's deep enough.
Fiddleback
07-08-2009, 09:24
Trash is trash...dispose of it properly or carry it out. It seems like a simple concept but maybe it's not.:-?
My preferred method is to dig a cathole for the feces and burn the tp in the cathole. But I moved to the arid mountain west and that practice is pretty risky June through September. FYI, one of the reasons for the guidance about cathole depth is the active biodgrading organisms found in that level of soil. Too shallow, and there will be severely diminished decompostion (area soils differ).
Pollution (includes trash) is "a resource out of place." Feces in the right place and the right amount is a fertilizer. Feces on or near a trail or campsite, dropped by camper after camper, day after day, is an ugly sight and possible health hazard. One or two hikers might not 'hurt' but the collective certainly does.
When I hike/camp I try to leave an area in a way that no one can tell I was there...
FB
Pedaling Fool
07-08-2009, 09:28
Just for clairication, I wasn't making an argument for not burying your crap. I'm just raising the flag on the reason they (the "authorities" of LNT) give for the reason why one should bury crap.
It should be buried, for the same reason that a toilet should be flushed - period. But don't be fooled - animals can find it.
BTW, if you dig a 6-8 inch cathole, how much of that hole can you fill-up
before you fill it in?:D
Pedaling Fool
07-08-2009, 09:31
I wouldn't doubt if the TP degrades quicker than the other stuff. I compost and paper stuff goes pretty quick.
I'm almost tempted to do an experiment:D
Like I have said before after I have done my business I cover it up and put a big rock on it if I can find one and then make an "X" with some sticks so people know not to move the rock because if the doo they will find some doo doo.
Blissful
07-08-2009, 10:15
packing out pee...?????!!!!! :eek: Sheesh
I only heard of doing that extreme in pristine caves out west.
Someone ought to tell the deer in Shenandoah not to do business in the stream...
I saw it once.
Someone ought to tell the deer in Shenandoah not to do business in the stream...
Before you get yourself all riled up about it, consider that deer may have had a permit from NPS to do business in the park!:-?
Like I have said before, after I have done my business, I cover it up and put a big rock on it ...
You'd better hope someone with one of the trail crews doesn't decide the rock you've chosen to conceal your lazy man's cathole is the perfect rock to complete a structure they're building. They might conclude they have an even a better place to put it that will solve another problem.
I suggest you re-read post #17 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=864908&postcount=17). Lightening one's load requires carrying a trowel. The place for it is in your pack, not at home or on a rack in a store.
Homer&Marje
07-08-2009, 12:06
I used those biodegradable wipes from wally world dig a cat hold and drop them in
I use those as well as tp. I think I read you can dehydrate those and rehydrate them before use to reduce weight... They are supposed to break down in less than 20 days.
6" rule has nothing to do with animals getting to it. 6 inches of loose dirt filled with crap isn't going to keep ANY curious animal out. If they want it, they get it. The 6" rule is to be respectful of the next person that might walk over it. That's what I was always taught...dig a hole deep, fill it in, and step on it to make sure you don't have crap on YOUR shoe....that's confidence in your hole ability:D
No one should carry a bag full of crappy TP....I'm with Mrs Baggins. Well put ;)
You'd better hope someone with one of the trail crews doesn't decide the rock you've chosen to conceal your lazy man's cathole is the perfect rock to complete a structure they're building. They might conclude they have an even a better place to put it that will solve another problem.
I suggest you re-read post #17 (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=864908&postcount=17). Lightening one's load requires carrying a trowel. The place for it is in your pack, not at home or on a rack in a store.
Maybe I didnt make myself clear enough for you I do dig a cat hole, poop, put TP in, cover with dirt, then put a big rock on top of that, and then put two sticks with an "X" on top of the rock. Hope fully that sums up you question. Doesnt sound lazy to me. Sounds like I do more than most and probably more than you.
I don't award extra credit points. If I were to, I might give extra points for using leaves where they are available, but that might not appeal to everyone.
Often, I can pick a handful of green leaves from deciduous trees or shrubs while I look for a suitable location for a cathole. Hobblebush or sugar maple in northern locations or at higher elevations farther south and shade leaves of oaks in the black (red) oak subgenus are good alternatives among others. If nature calls, but fails to provide suitable leaves, toilet paper works too.
I likely wouldn't pick leaves near a shelter or other more heavily used place, but then privies are often provided and should be used at such locations.
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 14:43
where's weasy when ya need him?... he volunteers to pack out your poo... without even asking... the problem is that would suggest you hike with him... "that's okay weasy, my poo will be just fine wherever i dump it"
Five reasons to pack out TP:
1) Even properly buried, it doesn't degrade, even if the ground is moist, for up to 10 years. In dry/rocky areas, it may not degrade ever.
2) Even when buried, animals will often dig it (and feces) up for the food value. (Small mammals such as squirrels, raccoons and oppossums are most likely to do so.) The paper then gets spread to the winds.
3) When burned, only the unused portion gets burned. The rest remains. See ##1 and 2.
4) Human waste can spread human-carried pathogens when not buried at least 200 feet from water sources, as is often the case, and thereby add to the oral-fecal disease chain.
5) It is directly contrary to 'pack-it-in-pack-it-out' LNT principles. It is no more "green" to bury toilet paper than to bury any other kind of paper or trash/waste.
Yes, I usually pack out my solid waste and toilet paper: It is easy - actually, easier than finding a place and then digging a cathole -, simple and, when done properly (and because of its simplicity, almost impossible of National Parks, and is an environmentally wise thing to do.
Glad to be here for you, TinBoy.
TW
saimyoji
07-08-2009, 14:53
five Reasons To Pack Out Tp:
1) Even Properly Buried, It Doesn't Degrade, Even If The Ground Is Moist, For Up To 10 Years. In Dry/rocky Areas, It May Not Degrade Ever.
Yes It Does....within Weeks.
2) Even When Buried, Animals Will Often Dig It (and Feces) Up For The Food Value. (small Mammals Such As Squirrels, Raccoons And Oppossums Are Most Likely To Do So.) The Paper Then Gets Spread To The Winds.
you Spelled Opossums Wrong, I Think.
3) When Burned, Only The Unused Portion Gets Burned. The Rest Remains. See ##1 And 2.
No, It Gets Eaten.
4) Human Waste Can Spread Human-carried Pathogens When Not Buried At Least 200 Feet From Water Sources, As Is Often The Case, And Thereby Add To The Oral-fecal Disease Chain.
I Have Some Japanese Friends That Are Into That Stuff.
5) It Is Directly Contrary To 'pack-it-in-pack-it-out' Lnt Principles. It Is No More "green" To Bury Toilet Paper Than To Bury Any Other Kind Of Paper Or Trash/waste.
Yes, I Usually Pack Out My Solid Waste And Toilet Paper: It Is Easy - Actually, Easier Than Finding A Place And Then Digging A Cathole -, Simple And, When Done Properly (and Because Of Its Simplicity, Almost Impossible Of National Parks, And Is An Environmentally Wise Thing To Do.
so, You Admit You Are Packing Fudge. Good For You.
Glad To Be Here For You, Tinboy.
Its Sn Dude.
Tw
:d...........
This would not be a problem if everyone would just wait till they got to the privy.
saimyoji
07-08-2009, 14:58
hey, who put all those caps in my post......:mad:
This would not be a problem if everyone would just wait till they got to the privy.
That's not quite right either. It would be some trail maintainer's problem.
That's not quite right either. It would be some trail maintainer's problem.
OK, I give up and recognize you as head poop person expert. Maybe you want to change your name again?
Even properly buried, [TP] doesn't degrade, even if the ground is moist, for up to 10 years. In dry/rocky areas, it may not degrade ever.
No one's stopping anyone who wants to pack out their wastes. I'm just not convinced everyone can be sold on the need or is willing to comply except under exceptional circumstances.
Can you provide us with data in support of your odd claim or at least cite a source for your information? You claim paper doesn't degrade and does degrade in the same sentence. I believe we are concerned with conditions which bear upon degradation in locations traversed by the AT.
OK, I give up and recognize you as head poop person expert. Maybe you want to change your name again?
Shelterbuilder is BMECC's head poop person. I'm content to post under emerald, which is a reference to Berks County, Pennsylvania's Green Diamond.
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 15:26
A few further thoughts:
- No, toilet paper doesn't degrade rapidly. Under the best of circumstances, properly buried and in moist upper soil ("topsoil"), it will take over a year to degrade. If it's in mineral earth, where it should be, it can take far longer. The purpose of burying that deep isn't to help it degrade, but to keep it from being dug up. In dry conditions - such as ridgelines along the AT and almost anywhere in the Southwest below 7,000 feet, toilet paper will never degrade. Ever.
- Whenever this topic is raised, no one gets interested in how simple it is to pack TP and/or feces out, and in as sanitary a fashion as any other trash: Bring a large ziploc. Put a couple of handfuls - no more than 1 cup - of cat litter in the bag for 2 people for a week. Put TP in the bag. Feces? Bring small sandwich bags and put the feces in the bag with a small amount of cat litter (about 1 oz is plenty), then in the ziploc. There will be no smell, and the waste and paper will be dried out in a few hours.
- Not all shelters have privies. Assume that one shelter is used by a total of 15 people over a 15 week period. That's going to result in a septic waste load in that area of about 1,000 pounds, and probably about 7,500 sheets of TP. Even if moderately dispersed, that's a very intense change in the ecology of a few acres, and not for the better. That's another reason to agree with Lone Wolf to avoid shelters.
- If you think TP and human waste are harmless if buried, save water at home and use your yard. (If you rent an apartment, the common green areas will serve for this experiment.) You will find several things: First, it's illegal to do that, for some very good reasons, most of which involve public health dangers. Second, your neighbors will object, because it's disgusting, even if they don't see you squatting. Lastly, there isn't all the "environmentally OK" aspect to it that you think. Keep in mind: If you have a 100'x100' yard, and you are the only one using it, that's going to be less than the use of the "latrine area" by most shelters.
- "Ah!" you say; "I use the privies." OK, folks. Try this experiment: Dig a hole in your backyard, instead of catholes. Put a little wood shed over it, maybe with a half-moon on the door. Use that, instead of your unnecessary plumbing inside. Result? Same as above: Illegal nearly everywhere because of public health dangers, objectionable most places, and - after a few moves of the privy when it fills up - sorta destructive of your yard.
Why do we treat the natural environment worse than we treat our own property? Just because we can get away with it? Folks, Planet Earth is little more than a great big terrarium; it's a closed system, and if we don't start accepting that, we're gonna be pay for it bigtime later. We can't keep damaging it and saying, "It's only a tiny bit that I did."
TW
Pedaling Fool
07-08-2009, 15:37
Five reasons to pack out TP:
1) Even properly buried, it doesn't degrade, even if the ground is moist, for up to 10 years. In dry/rocky areas, it may not degrade ever.
2) Even when buried, animals will often dig it (and feces) up for the food value. (Small mammals such as squirrels, raccoons and oppossums are most likely to do so.) The paper then gets spread to the winds.
3) When burned, only the unused portion gets burned. The rest remains. See ##1 and 2.
4) Human waste can spread human-carried pathogens when not buried at least 200 feet from water sources, as is often the case, and thereby add to the oral-fecal disease chain.
5) It is directly contrary to 'pack-it-in-pack-it-out' LNT principles. It is no more "green" to bury toilet paper than to bury any other kind of paper or trash/waste.
Yes, I usually pack out my solid waste and toilet paper: It is easy - actually, easier than finding a place and then digging a cathole -, simple and, when done properly (and because of its simplicity, almost impossible of National Parks, and is an environmentally wise thing to do.
Glad to be here for you, TinBoy.
TW
I can't respond to this because I don't know if this is TW trolling or if it's a demonstration of his blind faith and devotion to his LNT religion.
I find it hard to believe that the crap and TP I buried ten years ago hasn't degraded, but, I'm not a poophead like some of you guys.
In dry conditions - such as ridgelines along the AT ... toilet paper will never degrade. Ever.
Data please!
Not all shelters have privies ... That's another reason to agree with Lone Wolf to avoid shelters.
Some shelters do and it wouldn't be an argument to avoid them.
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 15:44
I can't respond to this because I don't know if this is TW trolling or if it's a demonstration of his blind faith and devotion to his LNT religion.
John, I'm not trolling. I've written before, a number of times over the years, about the dangers to the environment, including the AT, of massive amounts of human waste being deposited in unsanitary ways. It's not esthetic; it's a matter of safety as well as protecting the environment. And no, LNT is not a 'religion' with me, any more than good foot care, or protecting my gear from damage is. It's prudence. And unlike most religions - including mine - which demand faith in a result, LND (both in its backpacking sense and also for our entire world ecologic systems) is science: If we continue to do things as we have, we are going to have a very different, and probably not for the better, world to live in.
So yes, I carry waste out. And yes, I've taught Scouts to do so. Rangers in National Parks - including Ranier, Shasta and Grand Canyon - agree with that. It's even got a name: "Blue bagging" for the color of bags they hand out for especially fragile areas.
Disagree, if you wish. But no, it's not trolling; no, it's not a religion, no, it's not being 'cute' or PC. It means I'm trying - along with many others - to take care of the world I want to leave for my grandchildren. So they can have a world to live in.
TW
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 16:03
Data please!
Emerald:
Me.
I've been backpacking for pretty damn all 50 years. I've come upon latrine areas by trails and campsites for all of them, and dug up old latrine area on purpose (to lime them, at Scout camps, when they were filled improperly) and by accident, and seen toilet paper that was years old, in ground that was no different than that in the lower areas of the AT. As I've written elsewhere on WB, I've seen places with toilet paper that is years old - and I've seen it - including one of the most beautiful boulder beaches along the Bruce Trail. And I've given it a shot in my own yard in Michigan, which is wonderfully moist black earth, and biologically alive to maximize degradability. The shortest time in that area was several months. In some places, paper has lasted for at least a few years.
Dry areas? Degradation of paper can occur from several things, including fire and abrasion. But in a perfectly dry area, with little or no moisture for bacteria to work their wonders, such as the Sonoran Desert which covers most of Sonora (Mexico), Arizona, New Mexico and Southern Nevada and SE California, paper can (and does) last decades or even centuries.
I'll tell you folks something: I'll stop arguing for packing solid waste and toilet paper out if you can find one respectable public health professional who will say that burying is preferable to packing out. Not merely "acceptable" - since that tends to be what is said by those who realize how many people don't want to do something - but preferable.
As for data, well, this Detroit-born kid doesn't need an MIT data pack to know that gas guzzlers spew out a lot more air pollution than electric hybrids. All I have to do is drive behind one. So you go find that public health pro or that sanitarian who says "Yeah, it's much better to bury waste and TP than to pack it out and dispose of properly." Until then, I've got my data.
TW
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 16:09
I find it hard to believe that the crap and TP I buried ten years ago hasn't degraded, but, I'm not a poophead like some of you guys.
Well, dude, these guys found some that hasn't degraded in about 140 centuries. OK? And they're not "poopheads." You want data? Read on:
Human Traces Found to Be Oldest in N. America
Remnants Provide New Clues in Debate Over Where and When Continent's First Inhabitants Lived
By Marc Kaufman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 4, 2008; Page A02
Scientists have found and dated the oldest human remnants ever uncovered in the Americas -- a discovery that places people genetically similar to Native Americans in Oregon more than 14,000 years ago and 1,000 years earlier than previous estimates.
This Story
<LI sizset="177" sizcache="0">Human Traces Found to Be Oldest in N. America (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/04/03/ST2008040302198.html)
<LI sizset="178" sizcache="0">Postglacial Flooding of the Bering Land Bridge (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2008/04/03/VI2008040302147.html)
By Land or by Sea? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/04/04/GR2008040400205.html)
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 16:10
This part left out of the above:
Using radiocarbon dating and DNA analysis, an international team concluded that fossilized feces found five feet below the surface of an arid cave are significantly older than any previous human remains unearthed in the Americas.
Here's the link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/03/AR2008040302156.html
Weasel, TP comes from trees so what comes from the earth goes back to the earth. And no matter how much data you give people will, always have and are going to poop in the woods and use TP. If you feel that it is right to pack out your poo by all means pack it out but please dont think that everyone should. I think it would be worse if we all did the trash cans by the trail heads would be some kinda bio hazard and the e.p.a. would be shutting down the trash cans and then we would have to poop in the woods. So its kinda a vicious cycle. Its a no win.
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 17:30
A nice post, Snowhoe. But toilet paper isn't raw cellulose: It is highly treated, and it is no less (or more) litter than notebook paper, food wrapping or any other paper product. So that's not an excuse or even much of a justification. (Auto fenders come from the earth too, but they don't belong along the AT, either. Sorry.)
As for "no matter how much data" for people, I believe (sometimes uncertainly) that education works: If people start to realize that something has a deleterious effect on the environment, they will start to change. I grew up in Scouts in the 50s thinking, "bury food waste, burn and flatten cans before you bury them, and bury all your trash, and use DDT sparingly." Rachel Carson dropped her bombshell in the early 60s, and most of us (you, I'm sure) now realize that a lot of harmful practices from once upon a time have to change.
Actually, while trash cans by the side of the road are not where human waste (bagged) should be disposed of, that is probably a better location than in the woods, and less likely to spread disease as well as litter. EPA and similar agencies already have (largely good) regulations on how waste disposal services have to protect their employees. But it's not a big burden to carry human waste a few days until you come off the trail; my longest 'carry' so far is 9 days and the weight was negligible and it was easy to do. I then disposed of the waste at a sanitary disposal facility at a state park a few miles from where I came off the trail.
Once people try it and see how easy and, yes, harmless it is, it becomes more acceptable and more widespread. Interesting enough, I've found that dog and cat owners seem to be more accepting of the idea; people in cities are used to "bagging" their dog's waste, and cat owners realize how easy and harmless the process is.
TW
beakerman
07-08-2009, 17:33
I concede packing it out in arid places--arid conditions is exactly why you can post a link about 14000yo fossilized poo. When I lived in NM I packed it out most of the time because it was too dry but in the wetter parts like Sandias and Monzano Mountains I dug catholes and did "standard TP procedure" of burning it then bury it.
The AT is a different kind oc place though the volume of people is what makes it an issue. There is a certain "carrying" capacity and I'm sure that even for urine it is being exceeded in places.
Homer&Marje
07-08-2009, 17:35
I don't poop on ridges. Although, it is a nice view for a crap:D
Well, dude, these guys found some that hasn't degraded in about 140 centuries. OK? And they're not "poopheads." You want data? Read on:
Human Traces Found to Be Oldest in N. America
Remnants Provide New Clues in Debate Over Where and When Continent's First Inhabitants Lived
By Marc Kaufman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 4, 2008; Page A02
Scientists have found and dated the oldest human remnants ever uncovered in the Americas -- a discovery that places people genetically similar to Native Americans in Oregon more than 14,000 years ago and 1,000 years earlier than previous estimates.
This Story
<LI sizset="177" sizcache="0">Human Traces Found to Be Oldest in N. America (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/04/03/ST2008040302198.html)
<LI sizset="178" sizcache="0">Postglacial Flooding of the Bering Land Bridge (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2008/04/03/VI2008040302147.html)
By Land or by Sea? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2008/04/04/GR2008040400205.html)
What kind of science poop are you trying to spread about poop degeneration? You are trying to compare poop left in a environment of a cave which is protected from the weather, to the poop left buried in the dirt a few inchs below the surface. Are you trying to bullpoop us?
When you pack out all this dookie and tp where does it end up?
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 18:05
Beaker --
Although carrying out urine does not now seem practical, urine has its own unique dangers to the environment. While almost always sterile (assuming that there is no UTI), it can carry a host of pharmaceutical residues which can leach into groundwater or flowing water. That's why it's just as essential that urination be at least 200 feet from water sources, too.
While most soils in the AT get more water than the SW, that's a relative thing. Feces may not decompose in the days/weeks/few months that many people think it does, even in moist areas, for a lot of reasons. But principally, toilet paper isn't going to necessarily decompose quickly; the Bruce Trail hugs the Georgian Bay shoreline, and gets as much or more precipitation as the AT, and I've seen "paper mache rocks" - the rocks in toilet zones near campsites, when that was allowed (no longer, in Bruce Natl Park, but it is, along the AT), with paper that had made it through several years of getting more and more affixed to boulders.
As for carrying capacity, do a thought experiment: If (random example of a shelter that I don't recall having a privy) Abingdon Gap Shelter, in Tennessee, gets, say, 1500 thrus a year, and maybe another 1500 visit it annually, and you assume one pound of human solid waste per camper/night, that's 3,000 pounds - a ton and a half - each year in that location. That's going to have major effects on the ecology of that immediate area, not all of which are beneficial and all of which are avoidable. (This is similar to the reason why I don't buy Mexican tomatoes and rinse my fruits and vegetables with some care. California spinach, anyone?)
These are easily and simply avoidable problems.
TW
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 18:09
When you pack out all this dookie and tp where does it end up?
When I come off the trail, if I'm in a State/National Park or similar that has a developed campground, there is ALWAYS a sanitary disposal station. Other times, if I'm not far from home, I take it home and flush it down the toilet if it's just from a day or two. If the volume is greater, I'll stop at a private campground or trailer facility (sometimes truck stops have them too) and use their sanitary disposal facility. Usually adds about 5 minutes to my trips. No one has ever turned me down yet.
Weight/amount is usually about half the original due to the drying that the cat litter provides. No smell, either, again thanks to the cat litter.
TW
saimyoji
07-08-2009, 18:11
John, I'm not trolling. I've written before, a number of times over the years, about the dangers to the environment, including the AT, of massive amounts of human waste being deposited in unsanitary ways. It's not esthetic; it's a matter of safety as well as protecting the environment. And no, LNT is not a 'religion' with me, any more than good foot care, or protecting my gear from damage is. It's prudence. And unlike most religions - including mine - which demand faith in a result, LND (both in its backpacking sense and also for our entire world ecologic systems) is science: If we continue to do things as we have, we are going to have a very different, and probably not for the better, world to live in.
So yes, I carry waste out. And yes, I've taught Scouts to do so. Rangers in National Parks - including Ranier, Shasta and Grand Canyon - agree with that. It's even got a name: "Blue bagging" for the color of bags they hand out for especially fragile areas.
Disagree, if you wish. But no, it's not trolling; no, it's not a religion, no, it's not being 'cute' or PC. It means I'm trying - along with many others - to take care of the world I want to leave for my grandchildren. So they can have a world to live in.
TW
Weasel....resident fudge packer. Alll Hail The Weasel.
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 18:15
Weasel....resident fudge packer. Alll Hail The Weasel.
You know, S-, that's a slam, and I'm not throwing any slams on you or others. Back off. This is a legitimate topic. Feel free to disagree with me; many do, some don't.
The Weasel
I really don't have much of a dog in this fight, but it's the internet so why not weigh in? By the way, I actually am a respectable public health expert, in a sense. I got my master's degree from the University of Michigan's School of Public Health in Occupational and Environmental Epidemiology, though I do have to admit that the program was somewhat lacking in terms of the finer points of defecative output. So I'm really not much more qualified to comment on this than the rest of you yahoos, but the coincidence was too juicy to not comment on.
Questions:
1. What does it mean to biodegrade exactly? 14,000 year old fossilized pooh exists but it certainly isn't dangerous. At what point does steaming bacteria-laden fecal-oral transmitting feces become the same as good old dirt in terms of health risk? I really don't know and don't care enough to do my own research.
2. Presumably, the native wildlife do not pack out their crap. And I have to assume that the total volume of poop produced by the native animals makes hikers' droppings look like mouse turds. Sure, different bacteria live in our gut versus theirs, but not that different.
3. The acceptable vs. preferable argument seems valid on the surface, and it may be correct, but not all "common sense" arguments stack up in the end. This Detroit-born-and-raised kid would like to point out, for example, that some respectable research indicates that the total burden on the environment of hybrid cars is roughly equal to or exceeds that of traditional motors if you factor in the environmental impact of producing these much more complex engines and batteries. Perhaps distributing one's brown matter over a vast natural landscape is preferable to whatever happens to it after you drop it off at your local sanitation facility? (probably not, but I'm feeling argumentative).
4. I have carried out natural experiments in my very own backyard!! Not spurred on by the lure of scientific exploration but out of share laziness! My 150 pound newfoundland can drop a mighty hill of sh%t (in fact, given Michigan's standards, it might qualify as a mountain...Boyne Mountain my @ss) and does so frequently in my backyard. Being the slob that I am, I haven't actually picked anything up in approximately 859 days. Yet, the baseline level of doo-doo piles never changes (presumably due to a constant level of "reclamation") and both me and my pup Moose are as hale as ever. Furthermore, a lot of TW's arguments (both the thought experiments and legal codes) are based on a population living in stasis, whereas most forest creatures are relatively nomadic and tent to stay away from "overuse" areas anyway.
Again, I don't have a lot invested in this argument and I'm posting mostly because I'm in the mood to be overly verbose and argumentative (read previous clause as "drunk," and/or "I'm kind of trolling"). Also, I'd like to mention that even though I tend to disagree with TW I do find his logic/style of writing compelling, which is probably why I want to engage him in a bit of a debate. So, just to give the slightest unfriendly edge to add a little color to the conversation, I'll end with this:
Your move, Weasy.
P.S. I'd like to congratulate myself on never referring to dung by the same word twice in this post.
...exploration but out of share laziness!
Share=sheer. Ugh...I almost wrote "share=shear" which would've been embarrassing. I really need to donate, for reasons both ethical and grammar-related.
Yet, the baseline level of doo-doo piles never changes
changes=change...I should really just logoff, and possibly F-off.
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 18:40
I really don't have much of a dog in this fight, but it's the internet so why not weigh in? By the way, I actually am a respectable public health expert, in a sense. I got my master's degree from the University of Michigan's School of Public Health in Occupational and Environmental Epidemiology, though I do have to admit that the program was somewhat lacking in terms of the finer points of defecative output. So, just to give the slightest unfriendly edge to add a little color to the conversation, I'll end with this:
Your move, Weasy.
Petr --
I'm not sure why you want to add an "unfriendly edge...to the conversation," since other than the fact that you went to 'the other school' (MSU green blood does run in my veins), I am unaware of any value to that in this thread. My trail name is The Weasel and I'm grateful when you use it. Beyond that, this isn't an "unfriendly" website, and as one of the original members, I'm glad of that. I'm sure you are, too.
I don't disagree with much of what you say, and you have a different (and in many ways better) perspective in some ways with your M.P.H. And I well know the turf in Michigan (A2 isn't much different from Rochester in that regard). But the main point here isn't just how well feces - canine or human - degrades, but toilet paper. I doubt your dog uses it (but then again, maybe he does!), and whether it's Ann Arbor, Rochester or Roan Highlands, toilet paper as with any other kind of paper is easy to pack out and not good to leave behind. On an effort/benefit basis, it's worth carrying out when backpacking. As for human waste, there are a lot of reasons to pack it out, and a lot of reasons people have for not doing so.
But answer me this: If fecal waste is not objectionable, why does your local park want you to bag it and take it with you, thence to be thrown away appropriately? And why is that park different from, say, Mt. Rogers National Recreation Area?
The Weasel
The Weasel
petr, You should donate to WB and you can correct you spelling after it has posted. Plus you get to learn the secert handshake of WB?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!?
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 18:42
petr, You should donate to WB and you can correct you spelling after it has posted. Plus you get to learn the secert handshake of WB?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!?
Snowhoe: "Secert"? :banana
TW
Pedaling Fool
07-08-2009, 18:43
...
Again, I don't have a lot invested in this argument and I'm posting mostly because I'm in the mood to be overly verbose and argumentative (read previous clause as "drunk," and/or "I'm kind of trolling")...
We all do it:D, but TW has taken it to a new level. At least that's what I tell myself because I know he can't be that ignorant -- he can't, right:confused:, after all he's a lawyer:eek:
Weasel good for you for standing up for something! Even though it is just poo. I know how it is when everyone is against you on a topic that you REALLY believe in. Keep fighting maybe you might be able to change one persons mind. If so you WON!!
Dances with Mice
07-08-2009, 18:56
TP & improvised poo places are irrelevant compared to the most serious threat to the AT.
Weasel, my good man, I'm glad your still online!
My penultimate comment was a veiled and somewhat hazy allusion to some argument between you and (I think) LW that I read months ago where he insisted on calling you Weasy to your apparent chagrin which I found voyeuristically amusing. Reading between the lines, I suspect that you suspect that I really have no interest in being unfriendly. And, by the by, MSU is universally known to be a fantastic school if you have an interest in underwater basket-weaving. Their program is really strong.
In response to your middle paragraph: I have no disagreements, only admiration for the fact that you can appreciate the middle ground in an argument.
Why does your local park want you to bag it and take it with you? Aesthetics. I know your beliefs/arguments don't rely on this, but given some of the insanity in the legislation of city/county/state/federal bodies, I'd be shocked if these laws weren't primarily motivated by the unpleasant scenario of stepping in a pile of dog detritus (not that I'm particularly captivated by that idea myself). I'm not saying that there aren't other good arguments for why these laws should exist (as opposed to why they do exist), but I think that basing any scientific argument on existing legislation fails to strengthen your cause. I must admit, and in doing so reveal my ignorance, that I don't know what/where Mt. Rogers National Recreation is, but I guess that the difference would be that it is likely that a nationally protected recreation area is more remote, larger, and more wild than an urban 2 acre dog-walking park, thus limiting the waste/sq. mile/unit time.
By the way, I enjoyed the extra emphasis at the end of your post.
Petr
Petr
P.S. Upon further review, I'm not sure if the antecedent to "changes" in my original post is "level" or "piles," which would, of course, determine whether or not "changes" or "change" is the appropriate usage. Any English dorks care to enlighten me?
Damnit!
you're still online. No more whiskey and posting for a week.
The Weasel,
I'm relatively new to the hiking game and I'm wondering, with your geographic familiarity, if you could recommend the best hiking areas within an easy day's drive of SE MI. Thanks.
Petr
Weasel, my good man, I'm glad your still online!
My penultimate comment was a veiled and somewhat hazy allusion to some argument between you and (I think) LW that I read months ago where he insisted on calling you Weasy to your apparent chagrin which I found voyeuristically amusing. Reading between the lines, I suspect that you suspect that I really have no interest in being unfriendly. And, by the by, MSU is universally known to be a fantastic school if you have an interest in underwater basket-weaving. Their program is really strong.
In response to your middle paragraph: I have no disagreements, only admiration for the fact that you can appreciate the middle ground in an argument.
Why does your local park want you to bag it and take it with you? Aesthetics. I know your beliefs/arguments don't rely on this, but given some of the insanity in the legislation of city/county/state/federal bodies, I'd be shocked if these laws weren't primarily motivated by the unpleasant scenario of stepping in a pile of dog detritus (not that I'm particularly captivated by that idea myself). I'm not saying that there aren't other good arguments for why these laws should exist (as opposed to why they do exist), but I think that basing any scientific argument on existing legislation fails to strengthen your cause. I must admit, and in doing so reveal my ignorance, that I don't know what/where Mt. Rogers National Recreation is, but I guess that the difference would be that it is likely that a nationally protected recreation area is more remote, larger, and more wild than an urban 2 acre dog-walking park, thus limiting the waste/sq. mile/unit time.
By the way, I enjoyed the extra emphasis at the end of your post.
Petr
Petr
P.S. Upon further review, I'm not sure if the antecedent to "changes" in my original post is "level" or "piles," which would, of course, determine whether or not "changes" or "change" is the appropriate usage. Any English dorks care to enlighten me?
Well I can help out with this one:
I was shocked when moving from Tennessee to Colorado that people here do pick up pet poo and I think the reason why is that the yards here are ALOT smaller then those back east. Now, I do sprinkler and landscape lighting and I can tell you when people dont pick up the poo from there pets you can tell before you even get in there yard the smell is absolutly terrible because the animal has no place to poo and its just pooing on top of poo, because the yards are so small. 2nd it seems everyone here has to have at least 2 dogs. I dont have any because I love my grass and I will not have a dog tearring it up. So, if you have a couple dogs and you let them poo every where they want without picking it up and everyone else does that you just have poo every where. I cant stand it when some one lets there dog poo in my front yard. It takes money to keep my yard looking nice and to have a dog poo in it and the owner not pick it up makes me MADD!
Lone Wolf
07-08-2009, 19:14
TP & improvised poo places are irrelevant compared to the most serious threat to the AT.
which is?......
which is?......
You stirrer you:) O.k. I will say it....... Global warming!!!!!!!!! OH NO NOT THAT!?!?!?!?!?!?!
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 19:16
We all do it:D, but TW has taken it to a new level. At least that's what I tell myself because I know he can't be that ignorant -- he can't, right:confused:, after all he's a lawyer:eek:
Weasel good for you for standing up for something! Even though it is just poo. I know how it is when everyone is against you on a topic that you REALLY believe in. Keep fighting maybe you might be able to change one persons mind. If so you WON!!
John, let me tell you why I feel as I do.
For over 30 years, I've done parts of the Bruce Trail, which runs from Niagara Falls (Ontario) to Tobermory, at the tip of the Bruce Peninsula, which is the headquarters for Bruce National Park, and a town with the largest concentration of shipwrecks (in water that is so clear you can see 100 feet down) on the Great Lakes and, perhaps, the world. The last 70 miles of "The Bruce" are among the most beautiful trail miles in eastern North America, as it runs alongside of Georgian Bay, a hugely clear and wondrous body of water off of Lake Huron. The "Niagara Escarpment" here is wildly challenging, rising from water level to hundreds of feet above the shore, and it is home to a vast amount of fascinating animal and plant life; thousand-year old cedars along it led the United Nations to name it a UNESCO Biosphere. The trail itself is Canada's oldest marked trail, and in many ways it was inspired by the AT, being surveyed in the early 60s. It is a grand place, and those who have walked it consider it a special and very beloved place. In that, it is akin to the affection most of us feel for the AT.
Yet for many years much of The Bruce was on private lands, and people who hiked it often had little or no understanding of LNT concepts, even the most rudimentary. Of course, in the 60s and even into the 90s, there were no formal campsites on most of the peninsular sections, much less privies. Yet as campsites became established in scenic locations, they became heavily used. As that happened, "latrine areas" became informally sited. Yet, as with much of the AT, The Bruce is rocky, with only shallow soils where campsites are most common. And those latrine areas - as sometimes exists along the AT now - became massive litter areas, with toilet paper and feces uncovered by rain, by animals, or simply imperfectly buried, if at all. Worse yet, they were often close to water sources (including the Bay), makign water dangerous to drink, and they were highly visible (and often stinking, as well). As a result, in the '90s, as the trail (in that 70 mile stretch)became controlled as a National Park, the park simply did what it had to: It closed most of those campsites, making it extremely difficult to 'thru hike' the most wonderful section of the entire trail. In short, since the hiking public did not clean up after itself, Parks Canada simply eliminated those areas from being used. It's gone. You can't camp at many of those places now, and not at all in the gorgeous stretch from Cypress Lake to Tobermory. Gone. Forever.
That result already exists along the AT in places, such as GSMNP where backcountry camping is forbidden except at shelters, which have privies (and, you'll note, even those are mostly composting ones or ones which do not enter the ground system). If we're not careful, the AT - which is subject to the control of the NPS, in conjunction with the ATC and other state/federal agencies - are going to do the same thing, sooner or later, to the AT as Parks Canada has done to The Bruce, and, in fact, as the NPS has already done in a number of national parks: Require "blue bagging" or even forbid backcountry camping other than in sites with privies.
This could be avoided. Not by saying, "We have a right to leave tons of thousands of pounds of human fecal matter along the Appalachian Trail every year," or by saying, "Build more composting privies" in an era when we're luck if parks stay open at all (most California parks will be closed this month, it appears, for budgetary reasons). It's avoidable by realizing that this is a real problem, and looking for ways to solve it before we get told, "No more stealth camping. Camp in allowed campsites only. Permits required." That's what Parks Canada did. And it was the right decision, and I hate it.
I don't want that, and while my ideas may not be the best ones (and I'm open to any that are better), they confront a real problem and provide a real answer. "Do nothing" isn't a good answer here.
So while I respect how you - and others, obviously - feel about this, and how you may (and do) disagree with my solution (easy though it is), I hope that you and others will take a moment to realize that The Bruce isn't as wonderful a thru hike as it once was. It didn't have to change. But the hiking community did nothing, and so it was changed for us.
TW
The Weasel
07-08-2009, 19:29
Petr --
All MSU lovers tolerate UMmmers, so thanks for your comment. UM is an excellent school, also, for those who dream of excellence and are not disappointed by having to work for MSU grads.
As for me and Lone Wolf, he and I use each other's full names now, having gladly (for me) made peace. He's a good guy.
As for the local park, why don't they let you bury the dog waste, if it's just aesthetics? Because it's unsanitary. QED (Blue people usually need that translated. Let me know if you do.)
TW
John, let me tell you why I feel as I do.
...
So while I respect how you - and others, obviously - feel about this, and how you may (and do) disagree with my solution (easy though it is), I hope that you and others will take a moment to realize that The Bruce isn't as wonderful a thru hike as it once was. It didn't have to change. But the hiking community did nothing, and so it was changed for us.
TW
Well, hell. I've lost plenty of arguments before, but I rarely concede defeat in public. I don't even want to argue my point (and I love arguments for the sake of arguments)...just goes to show that passion will generally cow rationalization. But apparently, in my case at least, it can't cow laziness, because there is no way in hell I'm carrying around my own *****. And there goes my streak of fecal synonyms. I'm out.
Dances with Mice
07-08-2009, 22:06
TP & improvised poo places are irrelevant compared to the most serious threat to the AT.
which is?......
You stirrer you:) O.k. I will say it....... Global warming!!!!!!!!! OH NO NOT THAT!?!?!?!?!?!?!
No, far worse. But no one really cares.
It may already be too late.
pyroman53
07-08-2009, 23:24
Try as I might while searchin the internet, I could not find any source that refutes TW's assertions. I gotta give him props for a strong argument. As much as I dislike the idea of carrying a bag of poop, it just might be our future. I won't vote for it, but I'm thinking he might not be wrong.
My problem is I always go WAY off into the woods, and there's a lot of woods when you get WAY off. Plus, carrying a bad of kitty litter sounds so effin wrong.
hikingshoes
07-08-2009, 23:44
lol,74 post over some pooo.lol
I was just thinking, after digesting all this talk of poop and tp... my impending thru hike could take on a whole new turn if I decided to pack out all my faeces... Wow! Imagine that! 2000 miles, a pack full of poop, I would always be on the lookout for a rubbish bin, the flies would think I was mighty fine and instead of gradually losing weight from my pack as I eat my way through a gourmet smorsgasbord of freeze dry packet pasta meals... I have something soft, yet yielding to lay my head upon at night as a pillow...:eek:
Weasy's theory is all very interesting and everything, but it is a theory that doesn't hold waste water when applied to the AT. If pooping in a cathole was as bad as he suggests, the AT would be declared a superfund site and closed after years of abuse. As a leader of Scouts myself, I encourage the boys to use common sense and question theories that do not stand up to practical applications of time and experience.
A few further thoughts:
- "Ah!" you say; "I use the privies." OK, folks. Try this experiment: Dig a hole in your backyard, instead of catholes. Put a little wood shed over it, maybe with a half-moon on the door. Use that, instead of your unnecessary plumbing inside. Result? Same as above: Illegal nearly everywhere because of public health dangers, objectionable most places, and - after a few moves of the privy when it fills up - sorta destructive of your yard.
TW
http://weblife.org/humanure/default.html
bloodmountainman
07-09-2009, 07:09
TP & improvised poo places are irrelevant compared to the most serious threat to the AT.
Mr. Mice, you are the master of the "cliff hanger".
Could this be urban sprawl, erosion, global warming, or just the common weed?:confused:
Dances with Mice
07-09-2009, 07:55
Could this be urban sprawl, erosion, global warming, or just the common weed?Far, far worse.
It is the diabolical plot by the Illuminati for world control using Sports Juggling.
mister krabs
07-09-2009, 08:43
Far, far worse.
It is the diabolical plot by the Illuminati for world control using Sports Juggling.
Says so right here.
http://www.earthfiles.de/bilder/weltgeschichte_verschwoerung/guidestone1.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/infinityjoggling/5balljogg.jpg
Pedaling Fool
07-09-2009, 09:05
John, let me tell you why I feel as I do.
For over 30 years, I've done parts of the Bruce Trail, which runs from Niagara Falls (Ontario) to Tobermory, at the tip of the Bruce Peninsula, which is the headquarters for Bruce National Park, and a town with the largest concentration of shipwrecks (in water that is so clear you can see 100 feet down) on the Great Lakes and, perhaps, the world. The last 70 miles of "The Bruce" are among the most beautiful trail miles in eastern North America, as it runs alongside of Georgian Bay, a hugely clear and wondrous body of water off of Lake Huron. The "Niagara Escarpment" here is wildly challenging, rising from water level to hundreds of feet above the shore, and it is home to a vast amount of fascinating animal and plant life; thousand-year old cedars along it led the United Nations to name it a UNESCO Biosphere. The trail itself is Canada's oldest marked trail, and in many ways it was inspired by the AT, being surveyed in the early 60s. It is a grand place, and those who have walked it consider it a special and very beloved place. In that, it is akin to the affection most of us feel for the AT.
Yet for many years much of The Bruce was on private lands, and people who hiked it often had little or no understanding of LNT concepts, even the most rudimentary. Of course, in the 60s and even into the 90s, there were no formal campsites on most of the peninsular sections, much less privies. Yet as campsites became established in scenic locations, they became heavily used. As that happened, "latrine areas" became informally sited. Yet, as with much of the AT, The Bruce is rocky, with only shallow soils where campsites are most common. And those latrine areas - as sometimes exists along the AT now - became massive litter areas, with toilet paper and feces uncovered by rain, by animals, or simply imperfectly buried, if at all. Worse yet, they were often close to water sources (including the Bay), makign water dangerous to drink, and they were highly visible (and often stinking, as well). As a result, in the '90s, as the trail (in that 70 mile stretch)became controlled as a National Park, the park simply did what it had to: It closed most of those campsites, making it extremely difficult to 'thru hike' the most wonderful section of the entire trail. In short, since the hiking public did not clean up after itself, Parks Canada simply eliminated those areas from being used. It's gone. You can't camp at many of those places now, and not at all in the gorgeous stretch from Cypress Lake to Tobermory. Gone. Forever.
That result already exists along the AT in places, such as GSMNP where backcountry camping is forbidden except at shelters, which have privies (and, you'll note, even those are mostly composting ones or ones which do not enter the ground system). If we're not careful, the AT - which is subject to the control of the NPS, in conjunction with the ATC and other state/federal agencies - are going to do the same thing, sooner or later, to the AT as Parks Canada has done to The Bruce, and, in fact, as the NPS has already done in a number of national parks: Require "blue bagging" or even forbid backcountry camping other than in sites with privies.
This could be avoided. Not by saying, "We have a right to leave tons of thousands of pounds of human fecal matter along the Appalachian Trail every year," or by saying, "Build more composting privies" in an era when we're luck if parks stay open at all (most California parks will be closed this month, it appears, for budgetary reasons). It's avoidable by realizing that this is a real problem, and looking for ways to solve it before we get told, "No more stealth camping. Camp in allowed campsites only. Permits required." That's what Parks Canada did. And it was the right decision, and I hate it.
I don't want that, and while my ideas may not be the best ones (and I'm open to any that are better), they confront a real problem and provide a real answer. "Do nothing" isn't a good answer here.
So while I respect how you - and others, obviously - feel about this, and how you may (and do) disagree with my solution (easy though it is), I hope that you and others will take a moment to realize that The Bruce isn't as wonderful a thru hike as it once was. It didn't have to change. But the hiking community did nothing, and so it was changed for us.
TW
That is a problem, as are the privies on the AT. However, when faced with a problem most solutions are a matter of slight change in behavior, yet many seem compelled to go to the opposite extreme side of the spectrum, such as the case with packing out crap.
There’s absolutely no reason to pack out TP and leave crap; TP is designed to quickly degrade, it’s designed to degrade quickly so as not to clogged septic systems.
Fossilized crap has nothing to do with burying crap and TP on the AT.
Your little blue plastic bags will be around a lot longer than anything left on the AT.
Paper in a desert has nothing to do with burying crap and TP on the AT. (BTW, I agree paper will last longer in a dry environment, but disagree that paper in the desert will last centuries, but not going to debate that one). BUT, if it were, so what? What is it hurting? I use woodchips as mulch, that’s basically paper, is that hurting the earth?
I’ve seen the "mine fields" in GSMNP and imagine it’s similar to what you saw on the Bruce Trail. It is ugly and disgusting, but it does not hurt the environment, takes a lot more to hurt this earth than that. If people want to use those areas I have no problem with that, but I won’t, I’ll just walk off the trail and do my business, NEVER had a problem finding a virgin spot. And I have skipped a majority of privies for the same reason, they are ugly and I don’t want to be near them, but I ain’t packing – see just a slight change in behavior and all is good.
The Weasel
07-09-2009, 11:05
"A bag of kitty litter." To pack out solid waste, you need about 1/4 cup of litter per day.
"The smell...drawing flies." With cat litter used, there will be no smell or way to draw flies, even if you didn't keep the paper bag and contents in a larger ziploc bag.
But even packing out TP makes a huge difference: Weight? Negligible. Disgusting? Put it in a bag.
"[It] takes a lot more to hurt this earth than that." John, we're closing in on the irreversible limit of hurting "this earth." It's time to stop saying, "One little bit more won't hurt." It does. Our kids' kids will pay for it. And wonder why we didn't do more.
TW
saimyoji
07-09-2009, 11:39
"A bag of kitty litter." To pack out solid waste, you need about 1/4 cup of litter per day.
"The smell...drawing flies." With cat litter used, there will be no smell or way to draw flies, even if you didn't keep the paper bag and contents in a larger ziploc bag.
But even packing out TP makes a huge difference: Weight? Negligible. Disgusting? Put it in a bag.
"[It] takes a lot more to hurt this earth than that." John, we're closing in on the irreversible limit of hurting "this earth." It's time to stop saying, "One little bit more won't hurt." It does. Our kids' kids will pay for it. And wonder why we didn't do more.
TW
"Won't hurt the Earth," is a valid argument. There is nothing that humans can do that will irreversibly damage the planet. We may change life as we know it, we may cause our own extinction, but we will never destroy the earth.
Hell, we're not even the most important species living on the planet right now. We're only self important. Can you guess the most important species? :-?
"
Hell, we're not even the most important species living on the planet right now. We're only self important. Can you guess the most important species? :-?
The aliens from Gorgon?
Pedaling Fool
07-09-2009, 12:00
... Our kids' kids will pay for it. And wonder why we didn't do more.
TW
Another mindless quote of the media.:rolleyes:
Go ahead and keep listenting to the brainwashers.
BTW, I'm not anti-environmentalist, it's an important cause - not to save to earth, but for our own sake. I'm just anti-extremist. Life requires balance, not a zealot approach.
The Weasel
07-09-2009, 14:47
Another mindless quote of the media.:rolleyes:
Go ahead and keep listenting to the brainwashers.
BTW, I'm not anti-environmentalist, it's an important cause - not to save to earth, but for our own sake. I'm just anti-extremist. Life requires balance, not a zealot approach.
Not every disagreement with you, John, is from zealots, and not every opinion you don't like is "brainwashing" from "the media". Me, I use my brain as much as you, probably, and maybe occasionally you.
I pay for the environmental mistakes of my grandparents every day of my life. My mother died from lung cancer and related pulmonary problems that her physicians agreed was likely caused by the air - usually colored pink or red - in Niagara Falls, NY and North Tonawanda, NY in the early part of the 20th Century, as well as living close by Love Canal and being, equally certainly, close to ground based toxins. In those days - even now - many people defended environmentally bad decisions as incremental, made up by the media - Upton Sinclair was a favorite whipping boy - and necessary. As a result, Rachel Carson was, for many years, called a "zealot." Perhaps if people had tried, in, say, 1905, to clean up the air in Western New York (and downwind of Gary, or Shreveport, or any of the other horrendous locations), I wouldn't have been orphaned.
And I also pay for the environmental mistakes of my grandparents' and parents' generations when I can't fish for muskelunge in Lake St. Clair, near Detroit, the largest freshwater fish in the world. Or when the Salmon fishery in Northern California is closed to private fishermen and commercial alike, due to environmental errors 75 years ago. Or when I face water rationing - as I now have to live with - because of how Los Angeles has screwed up water conservation since the '30s. ("Chinatown", anyone?)
That's not zealotry, as much as you wish to put my concerns down by an insult, and it's not brainwashing, and it's not "from the media." Those are, as the phrase now goes, "facts on the ground."
Is TP and waste burying of that magnitude? I don't know. I do know that it is an easily avoidable problem, that it is sufficiently serious that the National Park Service requires composting privies in GSMNP and others, and that incremental protection of our environment prevents cascading problems that can become tragic in 50 or 100 years.
So if you disagree, fine. Don't call names; it's beneath you. But I don't want the AT - or any trail - destroyed or degraded when such a result is avoidable with little effort and virtually no cost. If you don't care that much, I'm not going to force you. But the day is likely to come - is has arrived in many places already - when others will, and you will then, perhaps say, "Could we have avoided these rules; could we have avoided these problems?"
TW
people have been pooping off the AT for years... and it is still there, imagine that... take your crap elsewhere if you like, but i am crapping in the woods along the AT... and saving the world from 1000-year half life blue plastic bag carrying evangelists... that is from the 1000-year plastics, not the evangelists, someone else can take care of them :)
The Weasel
07-09-2009, 15:31
people have been pooping off the AT for years... and it is still there, imagine that... take your crap elsewhere if you like, but i am crapping in the woods along the AT... and saving the world from 1000-year half life blue plastic bag carrying evangelists... that is from the 1000-year plastics, not the evangelists, someone else can take care of them :)
TinMan:
The blue bags are disposed of in waste stations, with their contents. They are then put through the sewage treatment system along with other such extraneous materials. Yes, people have "pooped" on the AT for years. We have also polluted our air and rivers and oceans for years, and yes, they are still there, too. But we are paying, and will pay, the price for not having stopped the pollution sooner. Imagine that.
TW
pollution=bad
poolution=not so bad
skinny minnie
07-09-2009, 16:23
I just wish that everyone practiced LNT. Human waste does need to be packed out in certain types of arid/rocky areas... and especially in high impact locations. In other environments, such as the AT... catholes should be adequate, but due to heavily trafficked areas (and often laziness/ignorance) you occasionally encounter human waste. Which sucks. I have walked literally a foot away from where I was eating and sleeping and found human waste. Not too sanitary!
I pack out my TP because of multiple reasons:
1. I often just use leaves.
2. TP takes up an extremely minimal amount of space.
3. The smell isn't that bad - it's contained.
4. I've encountered other people's waste often enough that even though I do dig a proper cathole, the possibility of it not decomposing or being dug up by animals does bother me. So I dispose of it separately. The same goes for tampons. Tampons do NOT decompose quickly.
5. I used to nanny. Changing all of those poop-filled diapers made me realize human waste is not a big deal. So it looks and smells gross. Deal. So it's unsanitary... practice proper hygiene!
40% of the world's population does not have access to a toilet/sanitary waste disposal on a daily basis... and that also means a majority of that percentage does not use toilet paper. And yet hikers on this forum freak out over carrying a sealed plastic baggie of TP and declare it unacceptable. I don't get it. As far as the plastic bag itself goes... I think it is safe to assume that almost every hiker is carrying their trash in a plastic bag. I try to reuse bags as much as possible. We need to accept the fact that our waste does indeed accumulate and that it can impact the environment. What's not to like about LNT? It's simply an attempt to preserve an environment as it was before modern civilization traipsed through. You can't compare an animal defecating in its natural environment to hikers disposing of human waste. It is an entirely different matter for humans to bring manufactured disposable materials into a previously untouched environment and discard them there. Telling ourselves that it's biodegradable is not enough.
beakerman
07-09-2009, 17:53
When I come off the trail, if I'm in a State/National Park or similar that has a developed campground, there is ALWAYS a sanitary disposal station. Other times, if I'm not far from home, I take it home and flush it down the toilet if it's just from a day or two. If the volume is greater, I'll stop at a private campground or trailer facility (sometimes truck stops have them too) and use their sanitary disposal facility. Usually adds about 5 minutes to my trips. No one has ever turned me down yet.
Weight/amount is usually about half the original due to the drying that the cat litter provides. No smell, either, again thanks to the cat litter.
TW
Dude I'm not trying to argue with you on this..but it weightng less because the kitty litter dried it makes no sense. Sorry. That water goes somewhere and if it is locked in the kitty litter conservation of mass dictates that the kittly litter now weighs more than it did when it was dry. If it was put into the bag and nothing left the bag then it is still in the bag. If it weighs less then something has left the bag...hopefully its just water:D
beakerman
07-09-2009, 18:00
Beaker --
Although carrying out urine does not now seem practical, urine has its own unique dangers to the environment. While almost always sterile (assuming that there is no UTI), it can carry a host of pharmaceutical residues which can leach into groundwater or flowing water. That's why it's just as essential that urination be at least 200 feet from water sources, too.
While most soils in the AT get more water than the SW, that's a relative thing. Feces may not decompose in the days/weeks/few months that many people think it does, even in moist areas, for a lot of reasons. But principally, toilet paper isn't going to necessarily decompose quickly; the Bruce Trail hugs the Georgian Bay shoreline, and gets as much or more precipitation as the AT, and I've seen "paper mache rocks" - the rocks in toilet zones near campsites, when that was allowed (no longer, in Bruce Natl Park, but it is, along the AT), with paper that had made it through several years of getting more and more affixed to boulders.
As for carrying capacity, do a thought experiment: If (random example of a shelter that I don't recall having a privy) Abingdon Gap Shelter, in Tennessee, gets, say, 1500 thrus a year, and maybe another 1500 visit it annually, and you assume one pound of human solid waste per camper/night, that's 3,000 pounds - a ton and a half - each year in that location. That's going to have major effects on the ecology of that immediate area, not all of which are beneficial and all of which are avoidable. (This is similar to the reason why I don't buy Mexican tomatoes and rinse my fruits and vegetables with some care. California spinach, anyone?)
These are easily and simply avoidable problems.
TW
That is an extreme version of my point. I think the soils around the AT are at or above teh carrying capacity for the poo and TP. I'd bet that back in the day when there were fewer hikers it was not as much of a problem.
I know all about the urine and phracuticals. My dad was never a healthy man during my life time but we went camping a lot. He took tons of meds for everything from heart conditions to pain meds. He would step off into the trees and water the lillies...well more times than not the lillies died. Sad but true. Again you and I are in agreement in principle. I'm sure there are certain areas around shelters and such that folks just step over too and pop hte cork on. I'd bet if someone were to do a studyon it many folks pick the same exact tree or bush. That type of nitrogen loading can't be good for a plant.
IMO the problem with poo on the AT has nothing to do with all the scientific jibber jabber going on for over 90 post and five pages. People poo at inappropriate places and they do not bury thier poo properly. It ain't science, it's common sense.
If you want to help solve the problem all you have to do is go far away from shelters and campsites. Go to some random place off a hundred or even two hundred feet off the trail. Pick a spot where no one would ever think to put a tent.
There are lots of folks here at WB that will hate to here this, but, makeing a cat hole with the heel of your shoe doesn't work and is the main cause for exposed TP and waste. Folks who don't want to carry a trowel and dig a real hole that is a minimum of 6 inchs deep (preferably a bit deeper), but instead kick up a shallow depression with the heel of thier trailrunner and cover thier waste with a few kicks of loose soil and leaves are the bad guys.
Not complicated.
pyroman53
07-09-2009, 21:32
If you want to help solve the problem all you have to do is go far away from shelters and campsites. Go to some random place off a hundred or even two hundred feet off the trail. Pick a spot where no one would ever think to put a tent.Not complicated.
TD55 I agree with this, but there are some high use areas where even this might not work. I've been composting for too long to not think that most of the tp and poop will just go to organic matter in the soil if you get out there far enough. But those that go just behind the shelter...that's what's going to cause a rule change if we're not careful.
If everyone would go out away from the trail, I think there's plenty of room. If my math is even close, there's probably 90,000 acres of trail area within a 400' corridor (200' each side) of the AT. That's enough poop room for 90,000 people to have an acre all to themselves each year. Dat's a lot a room. Yeah, I know there are probably a lot more people than 90,000 people hitting the AT each year, but I use it only one week per year and I have lots of room left in my acre. Its all about pooping well away from the trail and making sure its covered well. If we can't do that, I'm afraid we're going to see more restrictions in the future, with good reason. On the Colorado River, you gots to blue bag. I agree with TM, it could become a problem so we better get this figured out or someone else is going to figure it out for us (and we may not like the solution). But, I still don't want to carry no cat litter!!!
pollution=bad
poolution=not so bad
That made me laugh out loud.:) Did you think of that?
That made me laugh out loud.:) Did you think of that?
Yes, all by myself, but I didn't trademark of copyright it.
TinMan:
The blue bags are disposed of in waste stations, with their contents. They are then put through the sewage treatment system along with other such extraneous materials. Yes, people have "pooped" on the AT for years. We have also polluted our air and rivers and oceans for years, and yes, they are still there, too. But we are paying, and will pay, the price for not having stopped the pollution sooner. Imagine that.
TW
are blue bags eco-friendly? support your more plastic is good argument, if you would care to enlighten us. also, besides your claims of seeing 'ancient' toilet paper, support your argument that it has harmed the environment like pcbs, oil spills, medical waste, etc has mucked up our rivers and oceans. trying to draw a parallel here just proves you have no argument. and trying to suggest i am not concerned with real environmental issues is disingenous, at best, but, no worries, i don't take offense. anyway, no need to address this, at least for my benefit, i won't be listening, i am going offline for a few days to do a little field work on this non-issue.
beakerman
07-10-2009, 15:04
TD55 I agree with this, but there are some high use areas where even this might not work. I've been composting for too long to not think that most of the tp and poop will just go to organic matter in the soil if you get out there far enough. But those that go just behind the shelter...that's what's going to cause a rule change if we're not careful.
If everyone would go out away from the trail, I think there's plenty of room. If my math is even close, there's probably 90,000 acres of trail area within a 400' corridor (200' each side) of the AT. That's enough poop room for 90,000 people to have an acre all to themselves each year. Dat's a lot a room. Yeah, I know there are probably a lot more people than 90,000 people hitting the AT each year, but I use it only one week per year and I have lots of room left in my acre. Its all about pooping well away from the trail and making sure its covered well. If we can't do that, I'm afraid we're going to see more restrictions in the future, with good reason. On the Colorado River, you gots to blue bag. I agree with TM, it could become a problem so we better get this figured out or someone else is going to figure it out for us (and we may not like the solution). But, I still don't want to carry no cat litter!!!
You and TD55 both make valid arguments about carrying capacity. There is a lot of land on either side of the trail if people just walk more than 20 feet off the trail.
However, and I'm not trying to convert you--heck I'm not a convert but TW does have me thinking about this issue a little more than I would have--but anyway I know there are sections of the AT that are very heavily used and others that only see thru hikers or those serious seciotn hikers that are trying to do the entire trail. Knowing that your math becomes somewhat faulty for those heavily used sections.
Like I said I'm not really argueing against your point it is on it's face still valid it jsut needs to be recalculated for the heavey use areas. I don't think there are any TP gardens sprouting on the less used sections are there? It's been about 10 years since I hiked any section of the AT so I'm a little out of date on usages and such.
Homer&Marje
07-10-2009, 16:05
I'll use the privy and stay away from the ridges....I promise.
Can't believe you all like talking about poo this much:D Cya in a week...probly be locked down by then :eek:
:banana:banana:banana:banana:banana:banana:banana: banana
pyroman53
07-10-2009, 17:05
The Park Service, in its report, Appalachian Trail Vital Signs Technical Report NPS/NER/NRTR--2005/026, a report detailing data collection needs along the AT...states
"inferences can be made from several studies that have measured visitor impacts along certain sections of the Appalachian Trail, such as the sections of the AT that pass through Great Smoky Mountains National Park in North Carolina and Tennessee and the White Mountains in New Hampshire. Soil erosion, campsite proliferation, and adverse effects of poor
sanitation appear to be the most significant challenges facing AT managers."
It also states, "Human waste management has been another perennial challenge for Appalachian Trail managers. In some instances, poor sanitation management has led to direct and indirect contamination of water sources. Increased attention to this issue by AT managers during the last decade has resulted in substantial improvements."
So, obviously, it could become a BIG issue for users of the AT. I'm on the fence. I'm not planning on carrying any poop anytime soon. I do appreciate that it is an issue, at least in some high-use areas. I also concede that it is an issue that warrants some thought and discussion.
I gotta hand it to those on this thread. Good arguments on both sides. Not too much flamin or blowing it off. Amazing, especially given the subject. My wife thinks we're all nuts!
pyroman53
07-10-2009, 17:06
Appalachian Trail Vital Signs Technical Report NPS/NER/NRTR--2005/026,
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/atf/cf/%7BD25B4747-42A3-4302-8D48-EF35C0B0D9F1%7D/APPA_report_VsSummary_NETN_01302006.pdf
beakerman
07-10-2009, 17:57
Yeah I don't even let my wife read this site...she'd send me off to the loony bin in a heart beat. I can hear her now: "Let's see you all sit around on you computers and discuss long distance backpacking? Why not just do it?" I can't say that I disagree with her on that point.
Yeah TW has me thinking and your post (pyro) is giving me more cause to consider packing it out. However I don't like the idea of adding more plastic to the waste stream there has to be a better way. I know I'm smarter than who ever dreamed up plastic bags and canb come up witha better solution than that. Maybe a resusable bag or biodegradable bag of some sorts but blue plastic bags really? That's the best you can do?
The My wife thinks we're all nuts!
IMO, your wife's evaluation is correct.
The Weasel
07-10-2009, 23:51
For those at least thinking on the issue, consider packing out your TP. There is no sanitation problem in your pack (put it in ziplocs, and if you're worried about the smell, which really doesn't occur if you compress air out of it, about 1/3 cup of cat litter), it is light, and it makes a difference.
In those areas (such as Shasta and Ranier) which are already using blue bags, there are human waste receptacles. The bags, and contents, go into sewage treatment plants which dispose of the waste (including the plastic) in an environmentally appropriate manner.
Yes, the NPS is very concerned about the contamination in GSMNP and other eastern parks from human waste. That's why they are spending very substantial amounts of money for composting toilets, and directing that catholes/latrines are not permitted by shelters where those are present.
I'm sorry, folks: These are simple solutions, there is no major problem with packing waste out, and it's no more difficult or unsanitary (if done properly, which is easy) than packing out your other waste. If you don't want to, you won't. But don't try to say that it's not a problem. It is.
TW
i can see where high usage areas and fragile alpine zones could be negatively impacted if everyone decided to doodoo wherever they pleased, but for the most part they don't, so mostly it isnt a problem. the report does indicate a few areas where wonton piles of caca might be a problem, then fine address those, but to suggest every steaming stack of plop is a problem is just ridiculous. that crapenzy has to go somewhere, using fossil fuel carbon tonage towage, and the plastic and kitty litter deal is not exactly environmentally neutral. every action has a consequence and i have seen nothing here that discusses that.
anway, carry on, i am headed out first light. i will ask the amc for their thoughts about how high we have to pole vault over mouse turds (yes, it is a reference to sgt rock's comments on spirited wb 'discussions')
cheers :sun
Pedaling Fool
07-11-2009, 10:55
For those at least thinking on the issue, consider packing out your TP. There is no sanitation problem in your pack (put it in ziplocs, and if you're worried about the smell, which really doesn't occur if you compress air out of it, about 1/3 cup of cat litter), it is light, and it makes a difference.
In those areas (such as Shasta and Ranier) which are already using blue bags, there are human waste receptacles. The bags, and contents, go into sewage treatment plants which dispose of the waste (including the plastic) in an environmentally appropriate manner.
Yes, the NPS is very concerned about the contamination in GSMNP and other eastern parks from human waste. That's why they are spending very substantial amounts of money for composting toilets, and directing that catholes/latrines are not permitted by shelters where those are present.
I'm sorry, folks: These are simple solutions, there is no major problem with packing waste out, and it's no more difficult or unsanitary (if done properly, which is easy) than packing out your other waste. If you don't want to, you won't. But don't try to say that it's not a problem. It is.
TW
When you say "But don't try to say that it's not a problem. It is.", please define the problem. I can only see two possible problems; one is aesthetics the other is health. Both problems are easy to avoid, by just avoiding those areas, such as the "toilet areas" and in some cases the privies.
I’ve seen many composting privies on the AT and the vast majority are not much better than the normal privies (there are some exceptions). The reason is because there’s no maintenance conducted on them, aerobic composting requires work, and without work the accumulated pile will decompose in an anaerobic manner.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to replenish those litter buckets in the composting privies, but even if everyone added the litter the pile will still need turning and almost no one does that. The pile does decompose, but slower and stinker than if maintenance was done. And that’s why I’ve learned to just avoid all privies nowadays.
But as for composting what’s the difference between a privy that has a very large pile accumulated and a public "toilet area"? The difference is that you don’t have to walk around a minefield, so there’s a slight improvement in aesthetics. However, another difference is that the large pile in the privy (including composting) decomposes slower, because the center is devoid of air. So how does that fix the problem? (Again, I’m not really sure what problem you claim).
The only problem I really see is if people are crapping near a water source, but those idiots are being idiots and you think they are going to pack out their ukk?
Anyone that has any practical experience in composting knows there is zero problems with people randomly picking a spot off the AT (not talking about the desert here) to do their business.
Not trying to change your behavior of packing out, but you are absolutely wrong in telling me that I’m part of the problem in GSMNP, because I will NEVER pack-out.
YoungMoose
07-11-2009, 22:45
I dont carry it out but they say to carry it out becuase it doesnt decompose. Heres the link http://www.sierraclub.org/outings/national/wilderness.asp#dispose here is the proof that tp doesnt decompose. I originally thought it took 100 years but i looked it up to be sure of what i was going to say. You really do learn something everyday
Pedaling Fool
07-13-2009, 10:26
I dont carry it out but they say to carry it out becuase it doesnt decompose. Heres the link http://www.sierraclub.org/outings/national/wilderness.asp#dispose here is the proof that tp doesnt decompose. I originally thought it took 100 years but i looked it up to be sure of what i was going to say. You really do learn something everyday
YoungMoose, I see you’re a young buck, so let me give you some friendly advice. Don't believe everything you read, but read and observe. TP does decompose, I compost everything and if I were to put TP in my pile I'm confident that it would be gone within a week, takes a little longer for normal paper that I DO throw in there occasionally and TP is much thinner.
I also use cardboard paper (you know how thick that is) as a lay under mulch to keep weeds down. I have to replace it once in a while because it decomposes.
In your link, the Sierraclub also says to always try and pee on rocks, that's just dumb. An animal digging through soil is completely natural and can even help to aerate the soil in the same way I turn my compost pile to aerate.
As I said TP would quickly decompose in my compost pile. Yet I concede that it would decompose at a slower rate in a cathole; that's just the nature of nature, but it would still decompose, just because it would take longer does not mean it is bad.
Soil, in part, is animal matter, which means it is the dead carcasses of animals, but also the feces of animals, and humans are animals, therefore it's alright to crap in the woods. And TP is no less organic than us. TP is actually plant matter, another composition of soil.
Please read the below link, it will take more time and effort to read than the one-liners of the Sierra club, but you’ll learn so much more.
http://library.thinkquest.org/J003195F/definiti.htm
The Weasel
07-13-2009, 18:03
Well, John Gault is right about at least one thing: Don't believe everything you read. Including his screed in favor of "just do it, anywhere you want." But for those who are capable of facts interfering with opinions, here are some:
1) Toilet paper is paper. It's no different to bury toilet paper than food wrappings, pieces of cardboard, trail journals or yesterday's New York Times. They are paper. If you're one of us who believes, "Pack it in and pack it out," has a meaning for not leaving waste of any kind along trails, you'll pack it out. Will it degrade someday? Perhaps. Will it affect the environment in an unnatural manner in the process? Yes, by definition.
2) Toilet paper is easily packed out in a single ziploc bag usable for a week, easily. Put a few drops of chlorine in the bag, or a small scoop of cat litter, and it will not have any smell, even. It doesn't add any weight, since you brought it in. If you are squeamish, use an opaque ziploc or have a paper bag inside the ziploc. There are no sanitary or other problems in doing so. When you get to a place with sanitary facilities, flush the paper, and if you want to be really good environmentally, put a few drops of Bronners (or other liquid soap) in the bag with some water, clean the bag from the outside, rinse and put the bag in the receptacle for clear plastic bags that they have at the nearest grocery store.
3) Human solid waste is different from animal waste that is in the wilderness. It contains bacteria (some of them pathogens) and viruses that are not found locally, often including giardia or other paths that are transmitted by the oral/fecal route. It is now recognized that giardia is transmitted as much (if not more) by human waste; interrrupting this vector by not leaving it in the wild can help reduce that problem. Additionally, there are a lot of trace pharmaceuticals that end up leaching through groundwater (i.e. the water that flows at the impermeable level below soil) to water courses such as springs and creeks, with the result that wildlife up the food chain concentrates pharmaceuticals that are harmful. (Much of the soil along the AT is very shallow, and rock and clay are not far beneath the topsoil.) This is increasingly a concern of biologists, and it, too, is avoidable but serious.
4) Urinating on rocks is prudent; the water in the urine will evaporate far more rapidly, without concentrating the urine salts in a puddle in the ground.
5) I suspect that "John Gault" is using an intentional misspelling of John Galt; regardless, John Galt would say - and it's a mere paraphrase to say as I do here, "We should all have the freedom to decide whether to carry our waste out, or bury it. But freedom is not the same thing as license; it is a burden, since freedom implies that free men and women will make responsible decisions that do not impinge on the freedom of others."
I leave you all with this question: If a cathole is as good a solution as any other on the trail, and burying toilet paper is harmless, why are there latrines at shelters, and why does the NPS have only composting latrines in GSMNP? If it is only for esthetic reasons, is that not sufficient? If it is also for sanitary reasons, are those not the definition of responsibility?
Many will not pack out TP, used Kleenex, or even food packaging, much less solid waste; those who do are showing a respect for the wilderness that is the essence of responsbility. Those who don't may have understandable reasons for not doing so, but I - and others - can hope they will reflect, and begin joining those of us who have changed. And, over time, the rest will change, for the most part. I hope so; we do not have unlimited time to protect our world.
The Weasel
WOW, nice post Mr. Weasel. If your intent is to make people think, you are doing a good job.
People are fascinated and horrified by ****ting outside their comfort zone. Ever listen to people sharing stories about their dream trips to exotic lands? Toilets are always discussed in detail. Weird.
But we are talking Trail and Parks.
Over the top rules and practices will discourage an entire class of people from venturing out into the woods.
You want to protect nature, better to make it more inviting to all. Psychologically inviting as well as physically inviting.
Land managers are wise not to complicate things.
Don't scare them away with bombast over an imaginary problem.
The AMC has it nicely figured out. Clivus Multrums rule!
Pedaling Fool
07-13-2009, 19:43
...
5) I suspect that "John Gault" is using an intentional misspelling of John Galt...
No, my name is John Gault, it's not a screen name.
No, my name is John Gault, it's not a screen name.
About time someone answered the question.
saimyoji
07-13-2009, 21:13
WOW, nice post Mr. Weasel. If your intent is to make people think, you are doing a good job.
no, we recognize rusty as being mostly full of ****....the way he talks about it so much, its an obsession with him....just ask TinMan.
no, we recognize rusty as being mostly full of ****....the way he talks about it so much, its an obsession with him....just ask TinMan.
Thats a pretty shallow mindset. He keeps plugging away at an eco issue he feels strongly about. While I may disagree, as other may, with some of his thoughts and data on the issue, I respect that he has something to say about it. No matter how goofy pooping on the trail as an issue may seem, it is a problem that needs to be addressed. He catchs alot of flack for his beliefs, but is not deterred. You want to insult him by saying he is obsessed, I prefer to compliment him for sticking to his belief and attempting to show solutions to a problem. At least he is an adult.
saimyoji
07-13-2009, 21:39
Thats a pretty shallow mindset. He keeps plugging away at an eco issue he feels strongly about. While I may disagree, as other may, with some of his thoughts and data on the issue, I respect that he has something to say about it. No matter how goofy pooping on the trail as an issue may seem, it is a problem that needs to be addressed. He catchs alot of flack for his beliefs, but is not deterred. You want to insult him by saying he is obsessed, I prefer to compliment him for sticking to his belief and attempting to show solutions to a problem. At least he is an adult.
yep, theres a guy on the used gear thread selling a sense of humor....slightly used, but you'll never know the difference. :rolleyes:
yep, theres a guy on the used gear thread selling a sense of humor....slightly used, but you'll never know the difference. :rolleyes:
I looked all over them threads and still can't find the one you are talking about. Where be it are? Can you give me link?
beakerman
07-13-2009, 23:52
People are fascinated and horrified by ****ting outside their comfort zone. Ever listen to people sharing stories about their dream trips to exotic lands? Toilets are always discussed in detail. Weird.
It's funny you mention that. Toilets...even in my hotel rooms...were one of my biggest complaints about India when I was there. They wer wither too low to the ground and my knees were in my chest, too tall and I felt like a 3 year old sitting in the handicap stall or the seats were square (don't ask they just didn't fit my butt.). Different reasons but same with Singapore and the modern adaptation or the pit toilet.My first thought was: "Wow this is a tough neighborhood they stole the fraggin' toilet!" You definitely have to watch your step in places like that.
saimyoji
07-14-2009, 00:12
http://www.omgsoysauce.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/weird-pipe-toilet.jpg
http://www.forfun.us/funpic/1218568899-Strange-Toilets-and-Weird-Washrooms-Picture-Gallery.jpg
beakerman
07-14-2009, 01:15
http://www.omgsoysauce.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/weird-pipe-toilet.jpg
http://www.forfun.us/funpic/1218568899-Strange-Toilets-and-Weird-Washrooms-Picture-Gallery.jpg
The pipe toilet i could probably handle but that second one would give me nightmares for weeks to come:eek:
Pedaling Fool
07-14-2009, 09:57
...Toilet paper is paper. It's no different to bury toilet paper than food wrappings, pieces of cardboard, trail journals or yesterday's New York Times. They are paper. If you're one of us who believes, "Pack it in and pack it out," has a meaning for not leaving waste of any kind along trails, you'll pack it out. Will it degrade someday? Perhaps. Will it affect the environment in an unnatural manner in the process? Yes, by definition....
163 things you can compost. BTW, composting is a process to decompose organic matter in the same way leaves on the forest floor decomposes. The only difference is that composting is an enhanced process. http://www.plantea.com/compost-materials.htm
Paper napkins
Freezer-burned vegetables
Burlap coffee bags (http://www.plantea.com/coffee-bag-planter.gif)
Pet hair
Potash rock
Post-it notes
Freezer-burned fruit
Wood chips
Bee droppings
Lint from behind refrigerator
Hay
Popcorn (unpopped, 'Old Maids,' too)
Freezer-burned fish
Old spices
Pine needles
Leaves
Matches (paper or wood)
Seaweed and kelp (http://www.plantea.com/seaweed-kelp.htm)
Hops
Chicken manure (http://www.plantea.com/manure.htm)
Leather dust
Old, dried up and faded herbs
Bird cage cleanings
Paper towels
Brewery wastes
Grass clippings
Hoof and horn meal
Molasses residue
Potato peelings
Unpaid bills
Gin trash (wastes from cotton plants)
Weeds (http://www.plantea.com/weeding-tips-part1.htm)
Rabbit manure (http://www.plantea.com/manure.htm)
Hair clippings from the barber
Stale bread
Coffee grounds (http://www.plantea.com/slug-baits-coffee.htm)
Wood ashes
Sawdust
Tea bags and grounds
Shredded newspapers
Egg shells
Cow manure (http://www.plantea.com/manure.htm)
Alfalfa
Winter rye
Grapefruit rinds
Pea vines
Houseplant trimmings
Old pasta
Grape wastes
Garden soil
Powdered/ground phosphate rock
Corncobs (takes a long time to decompose)
Jell-o (gelatin)
Blood meal
Winery wastes
Spanish moss
Limestone
Fish meal
Aquarium plants
Beet wastes
Sunday comics
Harbor mud
Felt waste
Wheat straw
Peat moss
Kleenex tissues
Milk (in small amounts)
Soy milk
Tree bark
Starfish (dead ones!)
Melted ice cream
Flower petals
Pumpkin seeds
Q-tips (cotton swabs: cardboard, not plastic sticks)
Expired flower arrangements
Elmer's glue
BBQ'd fish skin
Bone meal
Citrus wastes
Stale potato chips
Rhubarb stems
Old leather gardening gloves
Tobacco wastes
Bird guano
Hog manure
Dried jellyfish
Wheat bran
Guinea pig cage cleanings
Nut shells
Cattail reeds
Clover
Granite dust
Moldy cheese
Greensand
Straw
Shredded cardboard
Dolomite lime
Cover crops
Quail eggs (OK, I needed a 'Q' word)
Rapeseed meal
Bat guano
Fish scraps
Tea bags (black and herbal)
Apple cores
Electric razor trimmings
Kitchen wastes
Outdated yogurt
Toenail clippings
Shrimp shells
Crab shells
Lobster shells
Pie crust
Leather wallets
Onion skins
Bagasse (sugar cane residue)
Watermelon rinds
Date pits
Goat manure (http://www.plantea.com/manure.htm)
Olive pits
Peanut shells
Burned oatmeal (sorry, Mom)
Lint from clothes dryer
Bread crusts
Cooked rice
River mud
Tofu (it's only soybeans, man!)
Wine gone bad (what a waste!)
Banana peels
Fingernail and toenail clippings
Chocolate cookies
Wooden toothpicks
Moss from last year's hanging baskets
Stale breakfast cereal
Pickles
'Dust bunnies' from under the bed
Pencil shavings
Wool socks
Artichoke leaves
Leather watch bands
Fruit salad
Tossed salad (now THERE's tossing it!)
Brown paper bags
Soggy Cheerios
Theater tickets
Lees from making wine
Burned toast
Feathers
Animal fur
Horse manure (http://www.plantea.com/manure.htm)
Vacuum cleaner bag contents
Coconut hull fiber
Old or outdated seeds
Macaroni and cheese
Liquid from canned vegetables
Liquid from canned fruit
Old beer
Wedding bouquets
Greeting card envelopes
Snow
Dead bees and flies
Horse hair
Peanut butter sandwiches
Dirt from soles of shoes, boots
Fish bones
Ivory soap scraps
Spoiled canned fruits and vegetables
Produce trimmings from grocery store
Cardboard cereal boxes (shredded)
Grocery receipts
Urine (It's true! Read the letters below)
Pedaling Fool
07-14-2009, 10:11
...Human solid waste is different from animal waste that is in the wilderness. It contains bacteria (some of them pathogens) and viruses that are not found locally, often including giardia or other paths that are transmitted by the oral/fecal route. It is now recognized that giardia is transmitted as much (if not more) by human waste; interrrupting this vector by not leaving it in the wild can help reduce that problem. Additionally, there are a lot of trace pharmaceuticals that end up leaching through groundwater (i.e. the water that flows at the impermeable level below soil) to water courses such as springs and creeks, with the result that wildlife up the food chain concentrates pharmaceuticals that are harmful. (Much of the soil along the AT is very shallow, and rock and clay are not far beneath the topsoil.) This is increasingly a concern of biologists, and it, too, is avoidable but serious.
4) Urinating on rocks is prudent; the water in the urine will evaporate far more rapidly, without concentrating the urine salts in a puddle in the ground....
The Weasel
Please provide a link to support your claim about how dangerous crapping is to the environment.
Pissing on rocks, you can't be serious:rolleyes:
Wow, how did I miss this thread for so long?:)
I haven't read all of it but its sad to see people with age who feel entitled to leaving their trash/ paper in the woods. :( They probably are the same types who feel entitled to leaving trash in fire pits. :(
As for packin poop, don't ask, don't tell.:eek: Maybe that was another thread.:o I don't pack poo butt I can see where its not such a bad idea.:rolleyes: I think it gets people away from addressing the paper issue though. :datzMix and bury your poop- I can live with. :cool: Don't pee near shelters. ;) Pack out your paper or if you are just too uppity- burn it. :)
Plodderman
07-14-2009, 11:27
Hard to imagine so many post but I guess we all talk a lot of crap.
The Weasel
07-14-2009, 16:11
As for attacks on me by Saimoji (sorry for typo on name but I'm past the message), that's just par for the course. It's called an "ad hominem" attack, which means when you don't want to debate a topic on the merits, you just attack the speaker.
As for 'obsession,' well, I have a lot of topics that I've spoken to on WB over the years, a lot longer than Saimoji (sorry again). I was here before him/her, and I'll probably be here after he/she has left. This is one topic, and yes, the environment matters to me. Speaking sort of as a lawyer again, we in this generation do not really own property as much as hold it in trust for our children's children's children. We need to honor that stewardship; God gave us this Earth not to harm or pillage, but to protect. Others disagree with me. But this is not a trivial topic.
John? As for urine, I've provided a lot of cites over the years. Go look them up. Start with the VERY good book, "How to Sh** In The Woods." If you have an inquiring and open mind, you'll do your own research; if you don't, no amount of information I can give you will change your mind. And as for a couple hundred things that will compost, I loved how you skipped over "composting does it faster." Much faster. Sometimes months and years faster. Composting is a labor intensive activity, which is why many people try it and give it up.
I remain amazed at the lack of any answer to my question: If it is so unnecessary to pack out TP, why do we all consider it desireable to pack out our food packaging and other paper? Why not bury that, too, if burying is so harmless? The question contains its own answer, of course.
TW
The Weasel
07-14-2009, 16:14
163 things you can compost. BTW, composting is a process to decompose organic matter in the same way leaves on the forest floor decomposes. The only difference is that composting is an enhanced process. http://www.plantea.com/compost-materials.htm
Paper napkins
***toast
Feathers
Cardboard cereal boxes (shredded)
Grocery receipts
Urine (It's true! Read the letters below)
So you propose to just leave any of these buried a few inches below soil anywhere along the AT?
TW
Pedaling Fool
07-14-2009, 16:58
So you propose to just leave any of these buried a few inches below soil anywhere along the AT?
TW
Not proposing anything, but if one were to, it would not harm a thing. And yes I did say it would compost quicker (given proper management) and decompose slower in a natural setting, but so what that doesn't mean it is harmful to the environment just because is decomposes slower.
As for pathogens and bacteria, they are all over the place. When an animal dies in the woods (happens all the time) it is full of pathogens that seep into the ground, or what about all the privies; where do all the pathogens go?(And those privies, whether muldering/composting/ conventional are teaming with pathogens. Pathogens are all around us, yet the biggest health issue on the trail is hypothermia.
Pedaling Fool
07-14-2009, 17:07
...John? As for urine, I've provided a lot of cites over the years. Go look them up....
TW
Actually, until this thread I've never heard of the LNT practice that promotes pissing on rocks in leiu of soil/plants. Don't worry about the references, I'm not interested, I wouldn't even read them. That's just more radicalized LNT crap as far as I'm concerned. People have been pissing in the woods along the AT forever and I'm sure the overwhelming majority of all pisses have been on soil/plants and it hasn't hurt a damn thing.
The Weasel
07-14-2009, 20:42
John's "certainty" ("I'm sure...hasn't hurt a damn thing.) reminds me of the joke from The Magnificent Seven, I think; Steve McQueen says, "That reminds me of the guy who jumped off the top of the saloon and said, as he went past the second floor, 'Everything's fine so far.'"
It's pretty well accepted in public health circles (my stepson has a Ph.D. there, so I listen to him pretty carefully) that human waste has played a major part in the spread - to pretty much the entire country - of giardia, from its originally rather limited territory in the west and far north of North America. Stopping such diseases - which also are devastating to animal populations - is part of the reason for encouraging better trail sanitation. And I reiterate that pharmaceutical residues, largely found in urine, are having an increasingly noticeable presence in groundwater that leaches from thin and rocky soils, such as is present on most of the AT.
It's true, folks. Just because John thinks it's not harmful to bury any waste - paper, garbage, more - isn't something to emulate. If you don't care about garbage and waste along trails, well, I can't make you care. But don't try to tell me that burying theater tickets, food waste, and - yes - human waste is harmless. It's not.
TW
saimyoji
07-14-2009, 21:21
As for attacks on me by Saimoji (sorry for typo on name but I'm past the message), that's just par for the course. It's called an "ad hominem" attack, which means when you don't want to debate a topic on the merits, you just attack the speaker.....
oh come off it Rusty....you know i don't bear you any ill will....just messin' around. i don't care if you wanna pack out your poop. ;)
Pedaling Fool
07-15-2009, 08:43
Well TW, I think we’ve hit that "is not, is too…is not, is too…." wall. So no more reason to discuss this issue.
But two corrections:
... Composting is a labor intensive activity, which is why many people try it and give it up...TW
Composting is no more labor intensive than taking the garbage to the curb - you just dump it in a different location. The people that make it labor intensive do so more out of a labor of love. I’m surprised someone who cares so much about the environment as you made that statement, it shows you have no practical experience.
... human waste is harmless. It's not.
TW
Again:rolleyes:, not saying it’s harmless; it is nasty and WILL cause disease, as do many things in nature, but nature will take care of it. And nature will take care of it much quicker in multiple droppings than in one large pile in a privy.
The Weasel
07-15-2009, 12:49
Nice try, John: Close a discussion and then argue some more.
No, composting is not easy. It is additional effort, and most people don't choose to engage in it for that reason. As for human waste, that's why we don't bury it in our backyard (perhaps you do, but that doesn't count): Human waste usually contains a high amount of protein-based waste, which ruins composting.
As for it not being harmful, well, your local sewage treatment office and most public health officials would agree that is is. Most of them will also agree that even when it decomposes, significant amounts of toxins or microorganisms leach from that into groundwater. That's a large part of why Giardia protozoons have spread throughout the backcountry: Humans are responsible, in many cases more so than wild animals, for that spread. While it might not be as great a problem in deep soils that are adequately far from water sources, rocky soils (such as most of the AT, the PCT, and the CDT) and shallow soils on top of clays permit leaching of contaminants which then flow along the top of the impermeable layer. On this one, I'll even 'pull rank' since as I type this, I'm in a courthouse in a case involving contaminant flow of leachate entering groundwater. It happens, and it happens a lot.
Those who don't care about these things should continue to leave their TP in the woods, along with the cardboard, theater tickets and all the rest of the things you say aren't harmful. The rest of us should pack all of those out. Even the Spamalot tickets.
So sorry; your 'corrections' aren't.
TW
Reasons TP- is not- considered litter:
A) no common sense :-?
B) very little time spent on the AT :o
C) laziness and a sense of entitlement :eek:
D) all of the above! :(
beakerman
07-15-2009, 13:38
Geeze this is like the pi$$ing contest Nean and I got into over onteh sleping with your food debate...only more entertaining.
Weasle makes some very good points...I agree with the assertion that Giardia and probably Crypto too have greatly increased their range due to human activites in the woods.
I know he will never convince John to pack anything out other than what he currently does but he definitely has me thinking about it. Like I daid before I just don't like the idea of plastic bags/kitty liter...there has to be a better way. I'm going to invest some grey matter in the issue of how to do it rather than if it should be done and if I come up with a better idea then well I'll be rich right?
...there has to be a better way. I'm going to invest some grey matter in the issue of how to do it rather than if it should be done and if I come up with a better idea then well I'll be rich right?
Is there something that can be added to a cathole that would kill toxins and help with the decomposing yet be light enough to carry? Perhaps something in a little spray bottle you could squirt into the hole?
Is there something that can be added to a cathole that would kill toxins and help with the decomposing yet be light enough to carry? Perhaps something in a little spray bottle you could squirt into the hole?
hmmm. My house is on a septic system and we regularly add a treatment to aid the process. It is a very light powder that is mixed with water and poured down the drains. There are 2 questions, one is whether this treatment destroys the toxins and second since the treatment itself is a micro-organism designed specifically to "eat" the waste will the introduction of this microbe into the wilderness have unforseen negative consequences? I wonder if some spetic safe treatments do not use microbes, but something else?
the septic treatment also contains enzymes. I wonder if these alone would be effective and "safer" than the bacterial treatments.
The Weasel
07-15-2009, 16:36
Geeze this is like the pi$$ing contest Nean and I got into over onteh sleping with your food debate...only more entertaining.
Weasle makes some very good points...I agree with the assertion that Giardia and probably Crypto too have greatly increased their range due to human activites in the woods.
I know he will never convince John to pack anything out other than what he currently does but he definitely has me thinking about it. Like I daid before I just don't like the idea of plastic bags/kitty liter...there has to be a better way. I'm going to invest some grey matter in the issue of how to do it rather than if it should be done and if I come up with a better idea then well I'll be rich right?
There are a number of commercial companies selling "kits" which don't do much more than kitty litter or chlorine drops will do. They can be found on the Web. "How to S*** In The Woods" has a few contraptions that are more suited to canoes/rafts.
As for "adding something," you can't kill "toxins." Those are simply chemicals. In theory, most could be neutralized by other chemicals. Way too complex, and it won't happen. As for killing microbes, it's really hard to kill viruses, and some microbes don't give up easy, either. And to do it involves toxic chemicals which aren't good for the backwoods either (keep in mind that pharmaceuticals that would kill such things are by definition, "toxic" and "antibiotic".
I wish it were otherwise, folks, but sometimes doing the right thing isn't easy. But it's still the right thing.
TW
Is there something that can be added to a cathole that would kill toxins and help with the decomposing yet be light enough to carry? Perhaps something in a little spray bottle you could squirt into the hole?
beakerman
07-15-2009, 17:13
There are a number of commercial companies selling "kits" which don't do much more than kitty litter or chlorine drops will do. They can be found on the Web. "How to S*** In The Woods" has a few contraptions that are more suited to canoes/rafts.
As for "adding something," you can't kill "toxins." Those are simply chemicals. In theory, most could be neutralized by other chemicals. Way too complex, and it won't happen. As for killing microbes, it's really hard to kill viruses, and some microbes don't give up easy, either. And to do it involves toxic chemicals which aren't good for the backwoods either (keep in mind that pharmaceuticals that would kill such things are by definition, "toxic" and "antibiotic".
I wish it were otherwise, folks, but sometimes doing the right thing isn't easy. But it's still the right thing.
TW
I like the idea of enzyme treating the waste...see that is thinking outside the box. But Weasle is correct that it is hard to kill viruses and other microbes and anthing that would do so would most likely be a very bad actor indeed.
Weasle my problem with packing it out is the plastic bag itself. I work in the plastics industry, well sort of--I'm a chemist for sure at least that's what my degree says I am, anyway the problem is disposal of the plastic bag. This is why I don't drink bottled water, bottled soda or plastic bottled beer (aside fromthe general principle of beer not belonging in plastic). I use plastic but only in durable items not disposable things. I'm not 100% effective on my self-imposed disposable plastics ban but I try.
Plastic bags (Ziplocks and the like) take years to break down in the landfill. Worse yet they end up floating out to sea where they get scooped up by whales and turtles and such. That is not a good situation either. It's not packing out the poo that turns me off--I'm rather neutral about it really. It's not that I think I am going to spoil the world but when done in concert with the rest of the folks out there it adds up but how much can one person really do about it? Not packing it out is not directly harming me today: depositing all the pharma. load and the non-native microbes are at best microscopic long development time issues so it is easy to ignore them. Where as platics are visible and starve sea turtles.
Like I said as for the act of packing it out I am neutral towards and would probably sign on if a better system were devised...stand by I'm working on it.
Nearly Normal
07-15-2009, 17:51
hmmm. My house is on a septic system and we regularly add a treatment to aid the process. It is a very light powder that is mixed with water and poured down the drains. There are 2 questions, one is whether this treatment destroys the toxins and second since the treatment itself is a micro-organism designed specifically to "eat" the waste will the introduction of this microbe into the wilderness have unforseen negative consequences? I wonder if some spetic safe treatments do not use microbes, but something else?
How effective is the treatment after you run bleach or dial soap into the septic system?
How effective is the treatment after you run bleach or dial soap into the septic system?
Yikes! I don't know. We don't use bleach, antibacterial soaps, or allow other caustic chemicals into the system. Don't want to kill the waste munching bacteria.
The Weasel
07-15-2009, 22:30
I like the idea of enzyme treating the waste...see that is thinking outside the box. But Weasle is correct that it is hard to kill viruses and other microbes and anthing that would do so would most likely be a very bad actor indeed.
Weasle my problem with packing it out is the plastic bag itself. I work in the plastics industry, well sort of--I'm a chemist for sure at least that's what my degree says I am, anyway the problem is disposal of the plastic bag. This is why I don't drink bottled water, bottled soda or plastic bottled beer (aside fromthe general principle of beer not belonging in plastic). I use plastic but only in durable items not disposable things. I'm not 100% effective on my self-imposed disposable plastics ban but I try.
Plastic bags (Ziplocks and the like) take years to break down in the landfill. Worse yet they end up floating out to sea where they get scooped up by whales and turtles and such. That is not a good situation either. It's not packing out the poo that turns me off--I'm rather neutral about it really. It's not that I think I am going to spoil the world but when done in concert with the rest of the folks out there it adds up but how much can one person really do about it? Not packing it out is not directly harming me today: depositing all the pharma. load and the non-native microbes are at best microscopic long development time issues so it is easy to ignore them. Where as platics are visible and starve sea turtles.
Like I said as for the act of packing it out I am neutral towards and would probably sign on if a better system were devised...stand by I'm working on it.
Beakerman:
Good post; consider this:
First, the problem isn't that feces doesn't degrade (enzymes do that faster) but what they contain. Enzymes don't prevent toxins and microbes that are harmful from leaching into groundwater. Making it degrade so they will do that faster doesn't help.
Second, the "plastic bag" problem is non-existent; you don't use a separate ziploc for each movement. I've done this for groups of 10 people for a week - Scouts - for full waste, and we used one paper bag with a little cat litter to dry the feces and the TP, inserted into a larger rubberized fabric bag that sealed shut like a lightweight surf bag, about the size of a sleeping bag stuff sac, full by the end of 4 full days. So it's not a major problem, it's easy, no plastic at all, safe, and eliminates much waste. For TP alone, it's common to have one ziploc for all the tp with a small amount of litter (1/4 cup) to eliminate odor (cat owners know this works). That's not a big amount of ziplocs, if you're just packing out your TP, and reaqlly only one more in addition to your garbage ziploc.
Thanks for considering this. It's far easier and far less "yukky" than people think.
Nearly Normal
07-16-2009, 11:54
Do you hang it with your food bag or sleep with it?
I always seem to have a spare zip lock to put my litter in. An empty lipton works too. ;)
Trash in the woods or a zip in the landfill? Is that really a question?:confused:
I sleep w/ me trash. :)
beakerman
07-16-2009, 13:09
Do you hang it with your food bag or sleep with it?
I'll let Nean answer that question...given our previous discussions on hanging vs. other.
beakerman
07-16-2009, 13:15
I always seem to have a spare zip lock to put my litter in. An empty lipton works too. ;)
Trash in the woods or a zip in the landfill? Is that really a question?:confused:
I sleep w/ me trash. :)
If you are boiling it down to trash, i.e. TP in the woods vs a plastic bag in the land fill I'll take that much quicker boidegradable TP in the woods everytime.
The real question is whether or not the industrial production of that rubber/plastic bag to tote it out with generates more toxins than my crap deposits. I lived in cancer alley in Louisiana and I know what is dumped in the Mississippi river during the production of all this platic/rubber material...not to mention the fact that the material itself will sit in the landfill for 1000 years.
Really which one does more harm? It's a serious question. I'm not trying to be contrary I seriously don't know and I doubt anyone really knows for sure.
beakerman
07-16-2009, 13:17
Beakerman:
Good post; consider this:
First, the problem isn't that feces doesn't degrade (enzymes do that faster) but what they contain. Enzymes don't prevent toxins and microbes that are harmful from leaching into groundwater. Making it degrade so they will do that faster doesn't help.
Second, the "plastic bag" problem is non-existent; you don't use a separate ziploc for each movement. I've done this for groups of 10 people for a week - Scouts - for full waste, and we used one paper bag with a little cat litter to dry the feces and the TP, inserted into a larger rubberized fabric bag that sealed shut like a lightweight surf bag, about the size of a sleeping bag stuff sac, full by the end of 4 full days. So it's not a major problem, it's easy, no plastic at all, safe, and eliminates much waste. For TP alone, it's common to have one ziploc for all the tp with a small amount of litter (1/4 cup) to eliminate odor (cat owners know this works). That's not a big amount of ziplocs, if you're just packing out your TP, and reaqlly only one more in addition to your garbage ziploc.
Thanks for considering this. It's far easier and far less "yukky" than people think.
Thanks...
Like i daid I know abotu the pharma load and the microbes so the enzyme trick...as nice as it sounds will work.
As for my bag usage...have you ever camped with me? Yeah it's like that...;)
beakerman
07-16-2009, 13:19
I always seem to have a spare zip lock to put my litter in. An empty lipton works too. ;)
Trash in the woods or a zip in the landfill? Is that really a question?:confused:
I sleep w/ me trash. :)
Oh I forgot to add properly handled TP in the woods--it';s all about technique. Kind of like hanging yoru food:rolleyes:
If you are boiling it down to trash, i.e. TP in the woods vs a plastic bag in the land fill I'll take that much quicker boidegradable TP in the woods everytime.
The real question is whether or not the industrial production of that rubber/plastic bag to tote it out with generates more toxins than my crap deposits. I lived in cancer alley in Louisiana and I know what is dumped in the Mississippi river during the production of all this platic/rubber material...not to mention the fact that the material itself will sit in the landfill for 1000 years.
Really which one does more harm? It's a serious question. I'm not trying to be contrary I seriously don't know and I doubt anyone really knows for sure.
It's NOT an either / or debate!:eek:
The zip lock / empty lipton / whatever you carry your trash in is on its way to the landfill anyways- so why not put your TP in there w/ it?:confused:
Using the plastic breakdown / production debate is beside the point (and an excuse IMO)- for leaving your litter in the woods. Ever heard of pack it in / pack it out? Ever wonder what that means? :rolleyes:
Why do people feel entitled to leaving their trash in the woods?:confused:
Pedaling Fool
07-16-2009, 13:41
...Trash in the woods or a zip in the landfill? Is that really a question?:confused:...
Landfill technology/techniques have come a long way, but there are still many problems with them, this problem is exasperated not only by the increasing human population, but also the increase in living standards around the world (meaning more consumerism, thus more garbage).
This is a major reason why I compost and why I employ more reuse/reduce techniques than recycling. And why I will always sht in the woods. :sun Here's a link http://www.landfill-site.com/html/landfills__environmental_probl.php
Pedaling Fool
07-16-2009, 13:49
It's NOT an either / or debate!:eek:
The zip lock / empty lipton / whatever you carry your trash in is on its way to the landfill anyways- so why not put your TP in there w/ it?:confused:
Using the plastic breakdown / production debate is beside the point (and an excuse IMO)- for leaving your litter in the woods. Ever heard of pack it in / pack it out? Ever wonder what that means? :rolleyes:
Why do people feel entitled to leaving their trash in the woods?:confused:
I just want to emphasis how much I'm against plastics. I reuse plastics from trip-to-trip, I still have bags from my 2006 hike. We really do need to get away from these things, but until a new product comes out it's incumbent among anyone that cares about the environment to reduce/reuse. They take forever to breakdown and leach poisons.
Landfill technology/techniques have come a long way, but there are still many problems with them, this problem is exasperated not only by the increasing human population, but also the increase in living standards around the world (meaning more consumerism, thus more garbage).
This is a major reason why I compost and why I employ more reuse/reduce techniques than recycling. And why I will always sht in the woods. :sun Here's a link http://www.landfill-site.com/html/landfills__environmental_probl.php
I'm not debating poop in the woods and agree proper technique is a must!:D
What I'm saying is that leaving trash in the woods (regardless of technique :rolleyes:) is a sign of laziness resulting from a sense of entitlement. :(
You folks have yet to argue against this point- but gee thanks :rolleyes: - for providing the examples- that prove it.:o
I just want to emphasis how much I'm against plastics. I reuse plastics from trip-to-trip, I still have bags from my 2006 hike. We really do need to get away from these things, but until a new product comes out it's incumbent among anyone that cares about the environment to reduce/reuse. They take forever to breakdown and leach poisons.
So you are saying you don't pack out any trash and that we should compost all our trash in the woods over the landfill?:confused:
I just want to emphasis how much I'm against plastics. I reuse plastics from trip-to-trip, I still have bags from my 2006 hike. We really do need to get away from these things, but until a new product comes out it's incumbent among anyone that cares about the environment to reduce/reuse. They take forever to breakdown and leach poisons.
I have been intrigued by the corn based "plastics". It is unfortunate when they are touted as "biodegradeable" when the truth is they require specific conditions rarely found in the natural environment (like temps in excess of 140*F). But it is a step in the right direction. At the very least, special "composting stations" can be developed to reclaim these "plastics". I haven't read anything about the environmental damage during the production phase of these products though. Hopefully the research will continue.
I have been intrigued by the corn based "plastics". It is unfortunate when they are touted as "biodegradeable" when the truth is they require specific conditions rarely found in the natural environment (like temps in excess of 140*F). But it is a step in the right direction. At the very least, special "composting stations" can be developed to reclaim these "plastics". I haven't read anything about the environmental damage during the production phase of these products though. Hopefully the research will continue.
Biodegradable is very misleading.:-? A big problem I see on the trail is people using biodegradable soaps in and around water.:mad: It's my understanding that these soaps degrade in soil, not water.
You wanna know somethin funny though? Tell the guy that while he is lathered up w/ his campsuds in a pristine stream and most will get angry and / or make an excuse. :eek:
Maybe they deserve to bath in the stream; maybe walking over and away for shore is just to much work?:rolleyes:;)
The Weasel
07-16-2009, 14:23
Do you hang it with your food bag or sleep with it?
I always seem to have a spare zip lock to put my litter in. An empty lipton works too. ;)
Trash in the woods or a zip in the landfill? Is that really a question?:confused:
I sleep w/ me trash. :)
It's NOT an either / or debate!:eek:
The zip lock / empty lipton / whatever you carry your trash in is on its way to the landfill anyways- so why not put your TP in there w/ it?:confused:
Using the plastic breakdown / production debate is beside the point (and an excuse IMO)- for leaving your litter in the woods. Ever heard of pack it in / pack it out? Ever wonder what that means? :rolleyes:
Why do people feel entitled to leaving their trash in the woods?:confused:
A TP bag, like a solid waste bag or, for that matter a food bag, should be hung/flown, since (like the food that many scavengers like coons and possums seek) it draws them. For that matter, that's one of the problems with cat holes; scavengers will dig them up, if not sufficiently deep.
As noted, if you're carrying a ziploc for your food, when it's used you still have that ziploc for trash and TP. And landfills nationally have far greater protections than before. As for where things go, the TP should NOT - repeat NOT - be put in trash bins, nor should solid human waste. It should be flushed at the nearest toilet (if it's more than a little bit, ask permission; i've never been turned down) or deposited in solid waste depositories such as most campgrounds have. Sewage treatment plants - which MUST conform to the Clean Water Act will deal with it properly. Where that's not the case, septic systems are acceptable by necessity, since the solids end up, over time, either encased (and a new tank needed) or pumped out.
Nean, you've got the point down pat. I admire that. Thanks.
TW
beakerman
07-16-2009, 14:24
It's NOT an either / or debate!:eek:
The zip lock / empty lipton / whatever you carry your trash in is on its way to the landfill anyways- so why not put your TP in there w/ it?:confused:
Using the plastic breakdown / production debate is beside the point (and an excuse IMO)- for leaving your litter in the woods. Ever heard of pack it in / pack it out? Ever wonder what that means? :rolleyes:
Why do people feel entitled to leaving their trash in the woods?:confused:
The debate is not just about TP Nean it's about the rest of it too....
I subscribe to the 6+ inch deep hole, burn the TP and cover method. You will never see TP blooming from one of my catholes.
beakerman
07-16-2009, 14:33
A TP bag, like a solid waste bag or, for that matter a food bag, should be hung/flown, since (like the food that many scavengers like coons and possums seek) it draws them. For that matter, that's one of the problems with cat holes; scavengers will dig them up, if not sufficiently deep.
As noted, if you're carrying a ziploc for your food, when it's used you still have that ziploc for trash and TP. And landfills nationally have far greater protections than before. As for where things go, the TP should NOT - repeat NOT - be put in trash bins, nor should solid human waste. It should be flushed at the nearest toilet (if it's more than a little bit, ask permission; i've never been turned down) or deposited in solid waste depositories such as most campgrounds have. Sewage treatment plants - which MUST conform to the Clean Water Act will deal with it properly. Where that's not the case, septic systems are acceptable by necessity, since the solids end up, over time, either encased (and a new tank needed) or pumped out.
Nean, you've got the point down pat. I admire that. Thanks.
TW
Do you realize that most sewer treatment plants do not treat for chemical polutants other than an oil/water separator? Unless they changed it durnginthe Bush years; there is no federal regulation regarding the pharma. load of waste water effluent. The Clean Water Act deals with BOD (biological oxygen demand), TDS (total dissolved solids), TSS (total suspended solids) and a hand full of pesticides/herbicides along with some UV treatment to kill of the bugs but no regulations regarding medications in the stream.
superman
07-16-2009, 14:43
Holy crap, who would have thought that such a crappy thread would have have such staying power. It's as refreshing as a coffee colonic.:rolleyes:
Biodegradable is very misleading.:-? A big problem I see on the trail is people using biodegradable soaps in and around water.:mad: It's my understanding that these soaps degrade in soil, not water.
You wanna know somethin funny though? Tell the guy that while he is lathered up w/ his campsuds in a pristine stream and most will get angry and / or make an excuse. :eek:
Maybe they deserve to bath in the stream; maybe walking over and away for shore is just to much work?:rolleyes:;)
Geez, you guys want me to carry poo around in my pack and now your telling me I can't take a bath. Don't we all stink enough already?
Pedaling Fool
07-16-2009, 14:53
So you are saying you don't pack out any trash and that we should compost all our trash in the woods over the landfill?:confused:
No. What I'm saying is that everything I do with respect to the trash I create is with the goal of reducing the total amount of plastic type trash. I reuse plastics, therefore I reduce my consumption of them.
I pack out my trash, but most of my trash is in the form of energy bar/oatmeal wrappers and the such. I don't eat "packaged" food for diner, so that cuts down significantly on packaged trash. I dehydrate my own vegetable/jerky and mix it with rice bought in bulk. My trash bag is much smaller than the typical hiker.
The Weasel
07-16-2009, 14:56
The debate is not just about TP Nean it's about the rest of it too....
I subscribe to the 6+ inch deep hole, burn the TP and cover method. You will never see TP blooming from one of my catholes.
Beakerman:
About your cathole: A lot of people think that the hole needs to be 6" deep, then they "fill" it. That usually means that there's little more than an inch or two of soil above the waste and paper, and sometimes not that. The result is that many such holes end up being dug up, or or even having the minimal soil washed away in a heavy rain.
If you're digging a cathole so there is at least 2-4" of covering soil, that's a minimum, and workable, which is why 8" is the usual recommendation when possible. But even then, it doesn't solve the problem of leachate from your waste or the paper. But if you don't use any prescription drugs, don't eat seeds of plants not growing in that area, and are certain you don't carry viruses or bacteria for diseases, and you're using TP that is not only biodegradable but has no chlorine or other residues that are harmful to the environment, well, great.
Here's what we teach Scouts; by the way, note that Scouts learn to urinate on rocks, not the ground, whenever possible. For good reason.
http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/TeachingLeaveNoTrace/053c_dispose.aspx
TW
>--WWW-->
Ever heard of pack it in / pack it out? Ever wonder what that means? :rolleyes:
:confused:
No, we are all undeducated stupids and never heard of that or understand what it means.
The debate is not just about TP Nean it's about the rest of it too....
I subscribe to the 6+ inch deep hole, burn the TP and cover method. You will never see TP blooming from one of my catholes.
Well, I'm not debating poop in the woods. I feel entitled to poop in the woods if I mix and bury it good. I'm too lazy to pack it out. TW has me -at least thinking about poop.:D
You seem a very considerate person and I'm sure you do things right. Not really addressing you though beakerman!:)
If one is already packing out most of ones trash -and I'm not debating what you carry said trash in- why not carry it all out or all that you don't burn- out.:confused: I think I've answered that!:p
TW- why can't I throw away TP w/ my other trash. Our cat poop goes in the trash, sometimes doggie poo makes it in w/ the clippings that go to the dump here in the 'burbs where I visit. Better to flush it I reckon, but why is it bad?:o
No, we are all undeducated stupids....
Evidently. :p (just kidding)
Holy crap, who would have thought that such a crappy thread would have have such staying power. It's as refreshing as a coffee colonic.:rolleyes:
Have you ever tried to pack out a coffee colonic!?:eek:
No, we are all undeducated stupids and never heard of that or understand what it means.
You're preaching to the choir! :banana
Can I get a - Amen! :D
I ain't that edjumakated either-- so don't feel bad!:o :)
Some of the smartest people don't have a lick of common sense. ;)
:sun:sun:sun:bse:banana:banana:bananaAMEN:banana:b anana:banana:bse:sun:sun:sun
Some of the smartest people don't have a lick of common sense. ;)
Damn straight.
Some of the smartest people don't have a lick of common sense. ;)
Some real dumb people don't have any common sense either. Lucky for many of them, they are born to rich familys and get jobs in politics.
Some of the smartest people don't have a lick of common sense. ;)
A classic!
Alligator
07-16-2009, 16:33
I know the subject is **** but lets keep the politics out of this thread.
I know the subject is **** but lets keep the politics out of this thread.
Sorry my man, just trying to be funny. :o I really don't care for politics to tell the truth- had my fill.:)
I know the subject is **** but lets keep the politics out of this thread.
Just do it like post #171? And thats ok?
A classic!
I saw this same guy burying his trash and baiting bears!!:D
Sorry my man, just trying to be funny. :o I really don't care for politics to tell the truth- had my fill.:)
I sorry too and also was trying to be funny:oDidn't think makin' joke about politicains in general was actually talking politics. I quess all the poo talk activated my sense of poomer.
Nearly Normal
07-16-2009, 17:09
A TP bag, like a solid waste bag or, for that matter a food bag, should be hung/flown, since (like the food that many scavengers like coons and possums seek) it draws them. For that matter, that's one of the problems with cat holes; scavengers will dig them up, if not sufficiently deep.
As noted, if you're carrying a ziploc for your food, when it's used you still have that ziploc for trash and TP. And landfills nationally have far greater protections than before. As for where things go, the TP should NOT - repeat NOT - be put in trash bins, nor should solid human waste. It should be flushed at the nearest toilet (if it's more than a little bit, ask permission; i've never been turned down) or deposited in solid waste depositories such as most campgrounds have. Sewage treatment plants - which MUST conform to the Clean Water Act will deal with it properly. Where that's not the case, septic systems are acceptable by necessity, since the solids end up, over time, either encased (and a new tank needed) or pumped out.
Nean, you've got the point down pat. I admire that. Thanks.
TW
I'll pass on collecting and storing and hanging poop or used TP.
I ain't gonna sleep with it neither.
The Weasel
07-16-2009, 17:33
Do you realize that most sewer treatment plants do not treat for chemical polutants other than an oil/water separator? Unless they changed it durnginthe Bush years; there is no federal regulation regarding the pharma. load of waste water effluent. The Clean Water Act deals with BOD (biological oxygen demand), TDS (total dissolved solids), TSS (total suspended solids) and a hand full of pesticides/herbicides along with some UV treatment to kill of the bugs but no regulations regarding medications in the stream.
yes, I'm aware of that. But the Clean Water Act also deals with proper disposal of sludge, which has the highest concentration of dangerous effluents; few sewage plants discharge into waterways now (at least routinely, as they used to), while septic tanks (when they become defective) and latrines/privies/catholes always discharge into the ground, risking groundwater contamination.
As for the staying power of this thread, think of it this way: If there are 1500 thrus starting at Springer next year, that means about one and a half tons of human waste left in the first 10 miles of the trail. If there were a topic here about, "Is it cool to throw 3000 lbs of trash along the trail north of Springer?" it would garner a few thousand posts. And similar amounts, in decreasing levels, occur as you go north. "But I will bury my Noodles packages and tuna cans away from the trail!" would get a few hundred derisive hoots, as would "It's OK for us to throw leftover food in the fire ring."
Now if it's disgusting to litter, and bad for the trail to do those things, why is it somehow more acceptable to bury thousands of pounds of feces along the Appalachian Trail, a massively heavily used trail, every year? Why is it bad to throw dozens of food cans in dumps near shelters - as still happens in many other trails - but OK to leave really disgusting toilet paper all-to-often displayed in "minefields" rather than say, "No. I won't do risk that mine will be visible a few days later when I'm gone."
Cans will degrade, over the decades, as will paper in months or years, and food in weeks or months or, sometimes, as long as years. But we all seem to agree: Pack those out. If you're too squeamish to even carry out toilet paper, perhaps you have the wrong activity in backpacking. Toilet paper and feces are every bit as objectionable as trash paper and leftover food waste, and, to me at least, more so.
If you're a responsible hiker, you minimize or eliminate to the greatest extent possible your touch to the land you pass by. If you're not responsible, and think - as does John Gault - that it's just a lot of "LNT crap" to try to be that way, well, I hope someday you think, and realize, that we need to change. All of us. We do.
TW
Pedaling Fool
07-16-2009, 17:44
...If there are 1500 thrus starting at Springer next year, that means about one and a half tons of human waste left in the first 10 miles of the trail. ......
TW
That is a lot of crap in the privies, yet the greatest risk to one's health is hypothermia:-?
Why are you the most vocal proponent of packing out crap? Why doesn't the ATC or any other club promote this if it's such a problem. (Again, just for you TW, I know it's a health issue, but to pack it out is an excessive measure). The way you beat the drum about this issue, one would think there was some sort of epidemic on the AT.
I've already ceded this argument to those who know more about it and/or feel more passionately about it, but I just wanted to say that I miss the work of Gary Larson. He was funny, a lover of nature, and satirical without being mean.
Peter
P.S. He's not dead, just mostly out of the public eye.
I'll pass on collecting and storing and hanging poop or used TP.
I ain't gonna sleep with it neither.
...and thats why there is used poop paper all over.:banana
Good job!?:eek:
Thanks.....for littering? :rolleyes:
I hope you burn your T -paper NN. ;)
Have you heard about the 2 reasons why people feel like you do?:D
Maybe you have another reason?:-?
Are you able to share w/ us why you feel this way?:)
superman
07-16-2009, 18:26
Some real dumb people don't have any common sense either. Lucky for many of them, they are born to rich familys and get jobs in politics.
I'm going to be more selective of who I get for parents in my next life...but not in a political or religious way.:rolleyes:
Nearly Normal
07-16-2009, 20:05
...and thats why there is used poop paper all over.:banana
Good job!?:eek:
Thanks.....for littering? :rolleyes:
I hope you burn your T -paper NN. ;)
Have you heard about the 2 reasons why people feel like you do?:D
Maybe you have another reason?:-?
Are you able to share w/ us why you feel this way?:)
Just exactly where is "The Land of Pagosah", Weasel's back yard?
Jayboflavin04
07-17-2009, 13:08
I was in Dollysods in the middle of a blueberry field.....There was no if's and's or Butts about it.....I had to go. There was no way to walk off the trail (a sea of blueberry bushes). When I tried to dig a cat hole nothing but roots. I did my best to dig as deep as I could and to bury properly.
All I had was a daypack on nothing really to pack it out.
What was I to do....
Just exactly where is "The Land of Pagosah", Weasel's back yard?
Thanks for sharing your reasons- for littering? :confused:
I am curious if there are any other reasons for your actions / attitude- besides the ones I pointed out and admitted to- myself.:o Not tryin to pick a fight and its not personal, but since you have stated that you don't pack out your litter- I was wondering why? :)
The "just because" attitude makes my point and thats why I used your example.:( Thank you :cool:
Pagosa Springs is a cdt trail town in southern colorado. :sun Pagosah is a native word meaning boiling or healing waters- depending on who you ask.;)
I have been known to sneak into TWs backyard on several occasions however, for the purpose of burying loads I deemed too large for the safety of my indoor plumbing. :o
I'd still like to know the problem w/ TP - sealed- in a trash can or dumpster. My mind isn't closed to new ways of thinking- or doing.:)
I was in Dollysods in the middle of a blueberry field.....There was no if's and's or Butts about it.....I had to go. There was no way to walk off the trail (a sea of blueberry bushes). When I tried to dig a cat hole nothing but roots. I did my best to dig as deep as I could and to bury properly.
All I had was a daypack on nothing really to pack it out.
What was I to do....
Mix w/ soil and burn or pack your paper. I've heard of the spread and disperse method where rocky or no soil exist. I've done that w/ dog poo on the trail. I bury my dogs poo btw.
wow, five more pages since i went to poop in the woods for a few days. why am i not surprised? ;) and, no, i have no plans of catching up on more drivel, just popping in to let you know what people who live in the woods, AMC caretakers, have to say... their composting latrines turn poop AND paper into compost that they sprinkle around the forest floor... silly me pressed one of them about tp, he said no, he sees no tp left after a few weeks in the compost... and that it doesn't last much longer in a cat hole... (talking NE woods, not dessert here)... the guy i talked to is way more experienced in these matters than our resident internet poop carrier prophet of doom... tin man out on this thread/topic.
:welcome
The Weasel
07-17-2009, 15:58
***
TW- why can't I throw away TP w/ my other trash. Our cat poop goes in the trash, sometimes doggie poo makes it in w/ the clippings that go to the dump here in the 'burbs where I visit. Better to flush it I reckon, but why is it bad?:o
I have been known to sneak into TWs backyard on several occasions however, for the purpose of burying loads I deemed too large for the safety of my indoor plumbing. :o
I'd still like to know the problem w/ TP - sealed- in a trash can or dumpster. My mind isn't closed to new ways of thinking- or doing.:)
Nean:
You don't need to sneak into our backyard; come in the front door and use the toilet. You're always welcome. If you sneak in back, Laguna Beach police are liable to give you the famous "California Cop Welcome." That's to be avoided. Just knock and I'll buy you a beer, too.
As for the problem with TP, there are several reasons not to put it in the trash or dumpster; the leading two are:
1) It's illegal to deposit human waste items in a dumpster since they human waste is considered biohazard (see below). This includes sharps and other items.
2) TP isn't like cat/dog waste, most of which will not contain diseases which can be communicated to humans. (Yes, I know giardia is an exception.) Human waste, though, can contain a variety of microbes that can transmit disease at any of a number of stages in the trash disposal process, including HIV, typhoid, and a large number of others, including a number of diseases for which the carrier may be symptom-free. Most sewage treatment plants and most (legal) septic systems will minimize or, commonly, eliminate this risk far more as part of the treatment and disposal of sewage sludge process.
TW
I'm fairly certain you're wrong on the HIV front, not that it's all that central to your argument.
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/qa/qa35.htm
"Since the HIV concentrations used in laboratory studies are much higher than those actually found in blood or other specimens, drying of HIV-infected human blood or other body fluids reduces the theoretical risk of environmental transmission to that which has been observed - essentially zero."
http://www.mnaidsproject.org/learn/transmission.htm
"Sweat, Feces, Vomit—are NOT considered infectious. HIV has never been found in these materials. The only possible risk would be if there was blood present."
wow, five more pages since i went to poop in the woods for a few days. why am i not surprised? ;) and, no, i have no plans of catching up on more drivel, just popping in to let you know what people who live in the woods, AMC caretakers, have to say... their composting latrines turn poop AND paper into compost that they sprinkle around the forest floor... silly me pressed one of them about tp, he said no, he sees no tp left after a few weeks in the compost... and that it doesn't last much longer in a cat hole... (talking NE woods, not dessert here)... the guy i talked to is way more experienced in these matters than our resident internet poop carrier prophet of doom... tin man out on this thread/topic.
:welcome
Hey TM, I'm silly too!:banana
I thought AMC caretakers lived in nice cabins that folks pay big bucks to stay in?:confused: Those croo kids are great but I'm guessing I've got more time in "the woods" than any of them if time spent is a point.
Do they mix something (wood chips) with the compost up there that helps speed things up? Would they rather you use the composting latrine or find a good spot outside? Only weeks of labor intensive work you say? :rolleyes: Is using well staffed composting latrines really the same as getting a little soil over your litter commonly refered to as: outa sight - outa mind?:-?
I don't know what you and TW have going but all I know is I've seen way too much litter in the form of TP along the trails.:mad: It didn't get there by itself and it wouldn't be there if self entitled people didn't leave it there. ;)
Funny how litter happens, isn't it. Let us pause for the laughter.......................................... .............................ok, now my side hurts.:o I want to go on record and say I'd probably leave my TP in the composting latrines at the AMC huts, but not in the woods.
You won't see my TP anywhere in the woods for any reason- 'cause I pack out what I and others pack in, leaving the trail nicer than I found it. Isn't that silly?:o
One day I was walking down the trail- in the middle of the woods- and about every 100 yards was a used kleenex. It had rained the night before so I knew these were "fresh". I gathered these flowers in an empty zip and after a mile or 2 and dozens of flowers I caught up to the lady in the act of blowing her nose (she had the "sniffles") and tossing the paper. :eek: Heres some more funny- she was more shocked and discusted than I was!!! .................................................. ................................ok:o
Believe it or not she thought it was perfectly acceptable behavior- hers- not mine. :eek: And for the same reasons given here.:-? I mean where do you draw the line? Last time I drew a line in the dirt I uncovered some lazy persons litter!:D
Sometimes I'll burn paper but usually its just easier to pack.;)
I mean where do you draw the line?
3 smilies. :banana:sun:clap
Just kidding. Great story about the Kleenex lady.
As for the problem with TP, there are several reasons not to put it in the trash or dumpster; the leading two are:
1) It's illegal to deposit human waste items in a dumpster since they human waste is considered biohazard..........
Nationally? State by State? Locally? You're a lawyer. Be specific. Show me some law. Otherwise I'm calling BS.
The Weasel
07-17-2009, 17:00
Nationally? State by State? Locally? You're a lawyer. Be specific. Show me some law. Otherwise I'm calling BS.
I'll be glad to show you "some law" as soon as you send the retainer. :D
Actually, since it's so easy to research yourself, and since you're really, really smart, Mowgli (as well as known for an open mind), I'll let you do the reseach yourself. But just to give you a head start (you did go to Head Start?), here's a first taste, for free:
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:yJAXWAi-OjwJ:www.west-springfield.ma.us/Public_Documents/WSpringfieldMA_DPW/RandRRegs_5-7-07.pdf+%22human+waste%22+%22trash+can%22+illegal&cd=40&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
As for calling BS, well, that has it's own humorous aspect, but I'll leave the reader to their own imagination. :-?
TW
But just to help
I'll be glad to show you "some law" as soon as you send the retainer. :D
Actually, since it's so easy to research yourself, and since you're really, really smart, Mowgli (as well as known for an open mind), I'll let you do the reseach yourself. But just to give you a head start (you did go to Head Start?), here's a first taste, for free:
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:yJAXWAi-OjwJ:www.west-springfield.ma.us/Public_Documents/WSpringfieldMA_DPW/RandRRegs_5-7-07.pdf+%22human+waste%22+%22trash+can%22+illegal&cd=40&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
As for calling BS, well, that has it's own humorous aspect, but I'll leave the reader to their own imagination. :-?
TW
But just to help
Local law. Thought so. Thanks for the answer Counselor! :sun
PS: Long time. Hope you are well. Really.
The Weasel
07-17-2009, 17:26
Local law. Thought so. Thanks for the answer Counselor! :sun
PS: Long time. Hope you are well. Really.
Mowgli: Lots of Federal law, too, out there. RCRA, CWA, other good stuff. I make decent money on it, so I know you'll agree when you finish your research. And if you decide not to, I'll give you a discount on my hourly rate to finish it off for you!
For the rest of you, yes, Federal law, most states, and most municipalities (including counties and cities/towns) have prohibitions against disposal of human waste in garbage containers. As with many laws, while occasional depositors may not get arrested (the FBI really doesn't make a high priority out of inspecting litter bins for human turds), laws like this are passed to protect people from harm, and this is an example of that. If - like many of us - you pack our TP and/or solid waste, it belongs in the sewage treatment stream, not garbage cans.
TW
Homer&Marje
07-17-2009, 17:28
Nationally? State by State? Locally? You're a lawyer. Be specific. Show me some law. Otherwise I'm calling BS.
Marje works for a trash and recycling company and it's DEFINITELY a federal offense to deposit and bio hazardous material into dumpsters or containers that are strictly for trash.
Including human waste and animal waste.....and much more
Marje works for a trash and recycling company and it's DEFINITELY a federal offense to deposit and bio hazardous material into dumpsters or containers that are strictly for trash.
Including human waste and animal waste.....and much more
Used TP? Nationally? What about disposable diapers?
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. :o
I tend to get more upset about raw sewage in a body of water. Happens every day in America. Despite the Clean Water Act. :mad:
Mowgli: Lots of Federal law, too, out there. If - like many of us - you pack our TP and/or solid waste, it belongs in the sewage treatment stream, not garbage cans.
TW
Doesn't this mean the poo packer outers are law breakers when they pack out thier poo and leave it in trash receptacles? Seriously, you expect people to carry thier poo until they find a flush toilet? What about the plastic bags? You don't want us to flush the bags or dump them in privys, do you? This conversation has gotten poopadiculous.
This conversation has gotten poopadiculous.
I bet if turds started washing up on Rehoboth Beach, you'd be mighty unhappy!
Used TP? Nationally? What about disposable diapers?
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. :o
I tend to get more upset about raw sewage in a body of water. Happens every day in America. Despite the Clean Water Act. :mad:
That is a good question about the diapers. I don't know of anyone- ever- thinking or saying- that was a no-no. Seems there would be a ...load to be made providing legal disposal. :-?They do float pretty well in our waterways though.:( You could probably put all the dry poop off my paper from a thru in one of those diapers based on the babies I've seen that seem to be able to poo their weight in poop.:eek:
OTOH, my folks told me we couldn't throw the new "liberal lightbulbs" in the trash. Think my Dad heard it on rush. Anyone know about that?:o
Homer&Marje
07-17-2009, 18:25
Used TP? Nationally? What about disposable diapers?
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. :o
I tend to get more upset about raw sewage in a body of water. Happens every day in America. Despite the Clean Water Act. :mad:
It is legal to throw human and animal waste into normal trash....it is not legal to throw said waste into public dumpsters, construction dumpsters, public trashcans or otherwise....it must be disposed of in a container that it is allowed....that could be your neighbors trash can...but not his construction dumpster, recycling bin, recycling cardboard dumpster, compacting trailer.....the list goes on
Homer&Marje
07-17-2009, 18:28
Seeing as this is a rare opportunity, that I got the picture....and the conversation that is going on.
First of all, again...I DO NOT!!! pack out my own waste. Nor TP. But does everyone know what the caretakers deal with in the Privy?
Collector bins, when full, are insanely nasty. Makes me want to volunteer just for all I've contributed.
Enjoy:D
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_ldP-jp9aBzY/SmD1txS554I/AAAAAAAACew/rnd5T8MNFFo/s512/SDC11700.JPG
You need help Homer, professional help.
Homer&Marje
07-17-2009, 18:43
You need help Homer, professional help.
The professionals failed. We've moved to repression and ignoring tactics.:D
Seeing as this is a rare opportunity, that I got the picture....and the conversation that is going on.
First of all, again...I DO NOT!!! pack out my own waste. Nor TP. But does everyone know what the caretakers deal with in the Privy?
Collector bins, when full, are insanely nasty. Makes me want to volunteer just for all I've contributed.
Enjoy:D
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_ldP-jp9aBzY/SmD1txS554I/AAAAAAAACew/rnd5T8MNFFo/s512/SDC11700.JPG
I can understand the leaving your TP in the latrine to be composted. Thats not an issue. Its what you do with your litter in the woods. Do you burn it?
And.... campgrounds have campers and some campers have babies. I've come across a lot of trash cans in public places that have diapers in them. If it is so hazardous, and against the law, shouldn't there be warnings and alternatives?
And.... know about the light bulbs?
Homer&Marje
07-17-2009, 19:33
And.... campgrounds have campers and some campers have babies. I've come across a lot of trash cans in public places that have diapers in them. If it is so hazardous, and against the law, shouldn't there be warnings and alternatives?
And.... know about the light bulbs?
What the new bulbs that when broken let out mercury? Yes
Homer&Marje
07-17-2009, 19:35
And no, I do not burn it. I bury it in soft soil 6 inches deep. I've never had an "emergency" where I could not wait for a suitable spot. Even when hiking out west as a kid I found it easy to find spots, and there is a lot less privies to use out there.
And no, I do not burn it. I bury it in soft soil 6 inches deep. I've never had an "emergency" where I could not wait for a suitable spot. Even when hiking out west as a kid I found it easy to find spots, and there is a lot less privies to use out there.
So what do you do w/those wiggly bulbs when they burn out? Do they all have mercury?
Thats nice - is the hole 6' deep when you start or after you finish?:D
I'd suggest burning- so even if / when an animal does dig it up there will be no paper litter. ;) If burning is to much to ask or deal with :rolleyes: perhaps mixing / composting w/ soil and a stick.:-?
I think a lot of folks start w/ a hole that probably isn't 6" to begin with. Most gals think 4" is.... ok , enough of that.:o Anyways they start w/ the hole, add poop, put their paper on top (and some use just as much at home as they would in the woods) and press an inch of 2 of soil on top. Most tp on the trail that I'm seeing has probably been dug up.:(
Something to think about. I'm always striving to be a better person, worker, hiker. What I like about these threads is people may not always change their ways, right away, but maybe they will improve their technique, and perhaps consider a better way. :)
Homer&Marje
07-18-2009, 06:57
So you dig a 10" hole every time? Are you putting up fence posts?:rolleyes: I would say of my 6" hole 2" are full and I grab my own "duff" around the area if I can and put that in before the soil....then I pack ALL of the soil I dug out on top. THEN I cover it with extra leaves, foliage, sticks and surrounding ground matter to cover it completely.
I'm a terrible person though and no one should take my advice...personally I don't like to light fires near that much ground tinder.
If you break a squiggly bulb, yes almost all contain mercury and they have set up recycling centers to accept them now....real pain in the ass and no one does it though.
I use cheapo bulbs, not the new ones
Pedaling Fool
07-18-2009, 09:07
Seeing as this is a rare opportunity, that I got the picture....and the conversation that is going on.
First of all, again...I DO NOT!!! pack out my own waste. Nor TP. But does everyone know what the caretakers deal with in the Privy?
Collector bins, when full, are insanely nasty. Makes me want to volunteer just for all I've contributed.
Enjoy:D
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_ldP-jp9aBzY/SmD1txS554I/AAAAAAAACew/rnd5T8MNFFo/s512/SDC11700.JPG
I bash AMC alot, but I have to admit they got the best privy system (through the Whites) on the trail, but they put a lot of work into it. I know the claims, but I don't believe (emphasis believe) that any mouldering/composting privy is much different than the conventional cathole/pit privy without maintenance.
Composting doesn't take much work, but upkeep on any privy on the AT, especially the ones through the Whites is a butt-load of work, sorry for the pun.
Homer&Marje
07-18-2009, 09:17
Just remember that every piece of trash that the caretaker has to sift through and pick out...he or she has to pack out for you.
Composting can go very easy for them...or very very difficult. Definitely the best privy system all through the whites and huge amounts of effort go into it. That picture is 1....1 collector bin of how many, I don't know the exact number.
But simple fact is John your right, composting privies use "duff" as the natural composting material and a cat hole, properly done, does the same thing. No difference, and on a much smaller scale.
beakerman
07-18-2009, 09:24
Beakerman:
About your cathole: A lot of people think that the hole needs to be 6" deep, then they "fill" it. That usually means that there's little more than an inch or two of soil above the waste and paper, and sometimes not that. The result is that many such holes end up being dug up, or or even having the minimal soil washed away in a heavy rain.
If you're digging a cathole so there is at least 2-4" of covering soil, that's a minimum, and workable, which is why 8" is the usual recommendation when possible. But even then, it doesn't solve the problem of leachate from your waste or the paper. But if you don't use any prescription drugs, don't eat seeds of plants not growing in that area, and are certain you don't carry viruses or bacteria for diseases, and you're using TP that is not only biodegradable but has no chlorine or other residues that are harmful to the environment, well, great.
Here's what we teach Scouts; by the way, note that Scouts learn to urinate on rocks, not the ground, whenever possible. For good reason.
http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/TeachingLeaveNoTrace/053c_dispose.aspx
TW
>--WWW-->
TW...
That's why I said 6+ inches deep.
I'm not debating the pack it out issue. I agree in principle that both the TP and the "primary solids" should probably be packed out...particularly in heavy use areas. However I'm concerned that the current technology of doing so may well be as bad for the total environment as the initial problem is for the local environment. Basically i think you might just be moving it to someone else's back yard so to speak.
Again I'm not disagreeing with you but like you I'm trying to educate folks to think about their actions and that sometimes what looks like a good alternative is actually worse in the long run. Take the electric car for example. Most intelligent folks would say they are a good alternative togas burners as far as global warming goes (NOTE: this is not a debate about global warming!!) Electric power means you are not personally burning the fossil fuels to power you personal conveyance device. However that power comes from somewhere and if that plant is not wind, solar or nuclear than it is most likely burning coal or natural gas. Thanks to one of the laws of the universe called conservation of mass and energy all you are doing at best is transferring the point of pollution and hoping it is being controlled there. Even the alternative power sources: nuclear, wind, solar and hydro all have their impacts on the land. We all know the fears about nuclear power so I won't rehash them here. Wind farms kill migratory birds, solar panels are environmentally unfriendly to build and hydro destroys fish runs.
I guess my point is everything we do has some impact. The question becomes which is really better: a locality with properly buried poo/burnt toilet paper or 1000 acres and countless gallons of water fouled to produce plastics to make bags so you can have a clean conscience about where you take a dump? Sure those places are regulated but they don't call the Mississippi river between Baton Rouge and New Orleans cancer alley for nothing.
This displaced impact is one of the reasons I left the environmental field. We were testing effluent streams for part per billion contaminants yet putting 200+ liters of methylene chloride up the vent stack in the process. My hypocrisy does not run that deep and as I said I'm not debating you on this issue--I agree in principle but I just want folks to seriously think about the total impact rather than the warm and fuzzy feeling they get for doing what they think is the right thing.
The Weasel
07-18-2009, 21:07
Doesn't this mean the poo packer outers are law breakers when they pack out thier poo and leave it in trash receptacles? Seriously, you expect people to carry thier poo until they find a flush toilet? What about the plastic bags? You don't want us to flush the bags or dump them in privys, do you? This conversation has gotten poopadiculous.
TD: You're not listening.
First, yes. When I come to the end of a section or a hike, I go to a car or shuttle that takes me places with flush toilets or to places (like state parks or commercial campgrounds) with waste disposal stations. That's where human waste goes. No, it doesn't go in trash cans.
Second, there is (at most) one plastic bag. ONE for every 3 days. I've repeated this system multiple times. Please pay attention: Have a number of paper lunch baqs (1.5 per day seems to work). Have about 1/4 cup of cat litter per bag. After defecating, use trowel to put waste and paper in bag. Put in 1/4 cup (about a med handful) in the paper bag. Roll up, put in large ziploc (which doesn't get messy at all). Each time you go, put the paper bag in the same ziploc. One will hold about 5-6 paper bags. When you arrive at a toilet/disposal station, remove paper bags and empty each one. Throw paper bags in disposal station or in waste can; there will be no human waste on the bag, since the cat litter will have adequately dried it. (If it contained liquidy stool, ask where the facility prefers to have sanitary napkins disposed of and put in same place.)
I don't have/need ziplocs, since I've used both a rubberized fabric stuff sac (like a dry bag for boats) that is 1 gal in size, and also used 18 long sleeve of inner tube, roll-clamped at ends.
It's easier than making a tin can stove and very sanitary, and very easy to dispose of waste.
TW
The Weasel
07-18-2009, 21:12
Beakerman, all this whining about plastic bags is nonsense. There are no suggestions for large numbers of plastic bags, any more than people (at least those with brains) use one ziploc per day for other trash. See above. If you don't like the idea, fine. But don't attack it with incorrect information. I've been part of Scout Crews with 10 people that packed out all waste together, taking turns carrying the "honey bag". There wasn't ONE plastic bag in it, there was no smell, it wasn't heavy even at the end of a week, and the National Park Ranger at Isle Royale was amazed and delighted.
It works.
TW
TD: You're not listening.
First, yes. When I come to the end of a section or a hike, I go to a car or shuttle that takes me places with flush toilets
Have about 1/4 cup of cat litter per bag. After defecating, use trowel to put waste and paper in bag. Put in 1/4 cup (about a med handful)
TW
I am listening. You are suggesting that hikers put cat litter into flush toilets. That is not a viable solultion. They will be creating a maintenence problem for the people who maintain the flush toilets. How would you like it if every day a dozen hikers flushed a pound or two of cat litter into your toilet and perhaps septic system? How many clogged toilets before you would start seeing signs put up forbidding hikers from doing this?
You are not giving solutions to the problem. Talking down to people who have questions or disagree or are critics of your views will not help solve the problem either.
Homer&Marje
07-18-2009, 22:58
I use 1 ziploc per WEEK for trash in the woods. By myself, that's a small ziploc...I have about 10 - 12 oz of trash halway up a gallon zip loc bag from 3 people 6 days in the woods.
1 ziploc per day for trash would have to be an extraordinary situation
beakerman
07-19-2009, 02:09
Beakerman, all this whining about plastic bags is nonsense. There are no suggestions for large numbers of plastic bags, any more than people (at least those with brains) use one ziploc per day for other trash. See above. If you don't like the idea, fine. But don't attack it with incorrect information. I've been part of Scout Crews with 10 people that packed out all waste together, taking turns carrying the "honey bag". There wasn't ONE plastic bag in it, there was no smell, it wasn't heavy even at the end of a week, and the National Park Ranger at Isle Royale was amazed and delighted.
It works.
TW
Ok you call foul on the plastic bag argument. You say (I happen to believe you by the way) that it is done withpaper lunch bags and what basically amounts to a rubberized cloth bag. Correct me if I'm wrong here. Let me describe teh system as I understand it:
crap in the woods, follow up with the requisite wiping, scoop that all up and deposit in on of the paper lunch bags with a hand full of kitty litter roll it down tight I presume to help prevent leaky messes and shove than in the "dry bag" for disposal later.
You put the contents of the dry bag down the flush toilet of the nearest facility that will allow it (I assume you don't have blockage issues---a paper bag full of it can be pretty solid after several days of kitty litter dessication).
I follow along with all that--I might have missed a step in there but for argument sake let's say that I have the gist of it thus far OK? What pray tell do you do with the dry bag?
Let's think about this logically for jsut a minute--I'm going to pull a page out of Mr. Nean's play book here for just a second so bear with me...
There are two issues here as I see it:
1) people are not burying it correctly in the first place and 2) you are concerned about pollution. Let's deal with the first one first as Mr. Nean did with me on the hanging food issue. I think you will agree TP blooming up from a cathole means the cathole was not done right. In short: what makes you think you are going to convince people to carry their poo correctly if the problem people are ones that can't handle the simple task of digging a hole striking a match and covering? You want to try to teach them to think far enough ahead to carry sufficient paper bags and kitty litter then scoop up the stuff that they obviously are incapable of digging a small hole to cover and deposit it in the proper facility when it's all said and done? Man you have faith in humanity don't you?:D
Ok I'm done trying to think like my buddy Nean....
As I said I agree with you in principle but I do find your arguments about pathogens is a little weak. Giardia and Crypto would not be spreading as fast as they are if people stopped being mr. tuff guy/lazy and actually treated their water--if it don't get into you, you can't carry it. If you aren't carrying it you aren't spreading it. If you are worried about e. coli and othe flora/fauna then I would suggest you stop hiking and drinking water in general. All mammals deposit e. coli along with a host of other things with their scat--that's why I treat my water;).
Also the pharma load in most cases is not that great. First of all not all hikers are walking drug stores (not saying you are) and secondly most of your phama load is carried via urine not feces (67% for ibuprofen as a combination of metabolites and free forms). Same with many pesticides and herbicides--they have to be absorbed to be effective and if they won't pass the digestive tract wall then it's wasted. Sure you aren't going to absorb all of it but when you realize the dosages--milligrams/day, absorbtion rate and the ultimate dilution that goes on after you deposit it--along with some metabolism that goes on in the digestive tract there is not very much coming out via the solid wastes.
So my contention is you should be paking out your urine more than your solids as it does more damage.
As I said I'm thinking about this issue. I know a thing or three about chemical processes in the body and environment as well as the processes that make the goods you use day to day. You said some posts back you are involved in some sort of litigation about contaminants leaching into water...I would love to have access to the information you have. I think that if it is indeed related to this topic (not claiming it you said it was but that was the impression I was left with) that information would make a much more compelling argument so someone like me. I'm a chemist. I deal with crap like this all the time (no pun intended--ok I lied it was intended) I've been on both sides of the battle--I've shut plants down for violating various laws and I've testified in law suits regarding chemical exposures to all sorts of nasty things as both defendant and claimant experts--I went where the data pointed not the paychecks. There are times you wanted me to show up and times you didn't--I never spun my data for one side or the other. Like I said I know a thing or three about this topic. If you have info that you can share then do so please.
The Weasel
07-19-2009, 02:51
Beakerman:
Yes, you have the system down now. That's it exactly. And as for disposal, yes, you are precisly correct: I ask before using a toilet for any of this, which is why I far prefer to take a few extra minutes and just stop and the nearest state park to where I am traveling from. If my bag stays in my pack for an extra hour or two, it's not a biggie, and state parks (with campgrounds for RVs) always have a disposal station.
The "pharma load" is greater than you may think. As I keep mentioning, this ne.ed to pack-out is greatest in rocky or shallow (less than 2-3 feet) topsoils. When that happens, water that leaches chemicals hits the base and then flows down. That's how springs occur. So it's risky to have waste areas (or even just a few loads) in such soils, which are typical of the AT. The combination of estrogens and other pharms is beleived to be one of the major reasons for the emerging extinction of many frogs and amphibians, and there are elevated estrogen and other chemical levels in a lot of other pond/creek critters. It's real. Is it enough to shut down a watersource? No. Is it enough, over a long enough time, to adversely affect flora and fauna. Yes.
Here's an examply, quickly pulled up on Google (groundwater contamination pharmaceuticals). http://www.wcponline.com/column.cfm?T=T&ID=2199
And I keep asking the basic questions, with no response (you might be willing to comment, and I'd be interested if you could): If "packing out TP and/or waste isn't necessary, why don't municipal/county/state health departments let people just bury their waste in catholes in their own yards? Why are indoor toilets required in houses?"
That's sort of a proof that there are real problems with "dump anywhere" such as we think we can on trails.
Keep this in mind: It wasn't long ago - maybe 40 years - that no one carried "backpacking" stoves when they hiked; we all cooked over fires. We've changed, and now we debate about alcohol vs. gas vs. butane or whaterver, and argue about the lightest stoves. Why? Because we learned that open-fire cooking was environmentally dangerous. We used to bury our trash, including cans. Now we argue about how to minimize packaging in our packs, because we carry it out. Why? Because we learned that leaving trash in the wilderness damaged it badly.
Dealing with solid waste is the next such issue, and I am confident we'll stop damaging the wild in that respect, too.
TW
beakerman
07-19-2009, 05:06
ok let's talk about this link you quickly posted....
I quote directly from the second paragraph: "...medications, etc., are finding their way into the environment via human and animal excreta from disposal into the sewage systemﾗi.e., flushing unused medication down the toiletﾗand from landfill leachate that may impact groundwater supplies. Agricultural practices are a major source and 40 percent of antibiotics manufactured are fed to livestock as growth enhancers. Manure, containing traces of pharmaceuticals, is often spread on land as fertilizer from which it can leach into local streams and rivers. Conventional wastewater treatment isnﾒt effective to eliminate the majority of pharmaceutical compounds."
First point to be made is this is about dumping bottles of the stuff into the toilette not what naturally passes. I'm not saying that none passes. You can see from my previous lengthy post that even ibu comes through at about 33% so there is a load (now there is seriously no pun intended there) to be considered but when you consider most prescription drug dosages this becomes trivial in the grand scheme of things unless you happen to have a pack of geriatric hikers.
Secondly the last sentence I quoted proves my previous point about sewer treatment/CWA--it only handles solids not dissolved chemicals. Your prior assertion that the waste treatment process of sedimentation (removal of solids) would do the trick is...well just plain wrong by your own source. Sure some of the drugs go with the solids but the rest stay in solution and get dumped into the outfall of the treatment plant...untouched. And what does your sewer treatment plant do with it's filter cake? I can tell you from experience what most of them do...they send some to a lab to get analyzed via a procedure called TCLP (toxicity characterisitc leachate procedure) which covers 100 or so compounds--mostly pesticides, herbicides and petrochemical contaminants. Then if that passes they send it to a landfill. So by packing it out all you are doing is moving it from several small well dispersed sources to one very localized source that still does little to deal with the chemistry problem. It will however reduce the spread of Giardia et. al. but then again so will proper water treatment and proper water treatment will have a more immediate effect on a hiker than packing out his poo will: i.e. he won't get sick if he treats properly where as if he packs it out his pack jsut got heavier (too bad for him) and then there is the old out of sight out of mind thing working there too. It's an attitude problem with that portion of the argument and other than acknowledge it I wish to comment no further on it.
I'll answer your quesiton then you answer mine: The reason it is illegal to have an outhouse is simply population density. Think of the folks out in the country. They all have septic systems. Those bad boys treat for nothing---all they do is digest those solids again. I have no information on what the enzyme/bacterial action does to the prescriptions but I'd bet very good money that it's less effiecient than the minimal treatment that gets done at the local municipal plant. Furthermore those septic systems are typically 2 part systems a tank to digestion and a leach field. That leach field is where all the liquids go as the solids settle out in the tank and the tank usually has a gravel/open bottom so liquids that don't flow out to the leach field trickle down through the sludge and out the bottom. I'm sure you have heard the saying about where the grass is greenest--and I'm not talking about the other side.
With the permit to put a septic system in is the consideration of where the water sources are, percolation rates, drainages, rock formations and permeability. That is because of the massive quantity of stuff in the system and it's persistent presence. The septic system takes up a good chunk of land and because of this they can't have folks jsut doing it in the back yard. As you say if you go in your back yard everyday your yard will fillup very fast. I contend that your back yard is not, repeat not, a healthy ecosystem. It is for all intents and purposes a monoculture of some mutant strain of grass and then you figure in all the chemistry that goes into keeping it that way. You have no flora/fauna to handle said deposits. Look at when your dog craps in your back yeard as opposed to on the side of the trail.The stuff along the trail lasts very little time because there are organisms in that ecosystem that deal with that sort of thing. Otherwise crap would be knee deep just from the deer and bear right?
So given that by your own source the chemical load is not leaving the waterways via sewer treatment what is to be gained by packing it out other than the potential of bacterial contamination which is easily enough handled by proper treatment. I will conceed that it may reduce waterborne illness but so will water treatment.
Now my question that you didn't answer--at least that I saw: What do you do with your big bag--the dry bag you packed all the poo in? Are they reusable or does the system you are advocating make them one time only devices? By one time I mean one mass dumping not each movement. You certainly can't carry them with you on any public transportation...that is a violation of a whole basket of health and DOT codes. So throw me a bone and tell me how many cycles (fill/empty) do you get out of a single bag?
beakerman
07-19-2009, 05:08
Oh I also forgot to add the amphibians are dieing because of a fungal infection. I read aboutthat in NG a few months ago. if they get innoculated aginst it they can beat the infection but if not they have like a 95% death rate. The fungus is naturally occuring.
The Weasel
07-19-2009, 11:11
Beakerman:
My 'dry bag' never gets dirty, since the contents are in paper bags. But after each trip, I wash it out fully with soap and water, and let it dry. Then it is reused.
As for the article, that is one that shows the problem, found by Google in a few seconds. As for population density, that's my point: There are tens of thousands of people using most stretches of the AT and other similar trails each year, and after a few years, that adds up to use density as much as in residential rural areas or even suburbs. Not all parts, perhaps, but a lot of trail is like that, and a lot of that is in areas with poor soils that allow leaching.
Wildlife deaths and deformities are not just due to 'natural' sources. We're seeing huge problems due to water pollution from runoff.
Against this, carrying out TP and, where possible, solid waste is easy, safe, sanitary and beneficial
TW
beakerman
07-19-2009, 12:58
Ok see that was were I was getting hung up--those "dry bags" are kind of pricey and are hard nt he environment to make. If you reuse it then OK I'll buy that for a dollar.
I agree that parts of the trail are being heavily impacted by the traffic. That is a problem but again I point out that if these folks can't bury it properly how do you think they are going to be able to manage carrying it out? I'm just pointing that out. It's not a major arguement against what you do nor is it one for what I do because I'm pretty sure I can manage it being I am capable of burying it properly in the first place. I burn my TP so there is very little of that left to worry about anyway.
At this point I see no real issue with packing it out but the chemistry arguments for doing so are weak in my opinion.
What I wonder is flushing the filled paper bags. One at a time I'd guess! Seems that might clog a toilet- regardless. ?
If you carry poop and used TP around with you in your pack, please, PLEASE don't brag about it and show it to me! Best that I never know about it! :eek:
Deuteronomy 24: 12-13 You are to have a place outside the camp to serve as a latrine. You must have a spade among your other equipment and when you relieve yourself outside you must dig a hole with the spade and then turn and cover your excrement.
Burying it was good enuff for the Hebrews, good enuff for me. There's nothing new under the Sun.
The Weasel
07-19-2009, 16:19
My dry bag is nothing more than a waterproof stuff sack, with a rolling snap closure. I've used it for years. If you use a waterproof sack of any kind, you're having no more (and no less) "environmental" effect than me, even if you use it for your clothing. (I don't use an extra stuff sack for anything other than my sleeping bag, so I think I'm ahead of the game there.)
As for clogging with bags, I'll repeat it again: When you are at a toilet (with permission) or a sanitary disposal station, you open your dry bag or ziploc, take out the paper bags, EMPTY THEM, and then throw them away where proper. Since you used (I hope!) kitty litter to dry your solid waste sufficiently, there should be no residue in the bags.
TW
The Weasel
07-19-2009, 16:24
Burying it was good enuff for the Hebrews, good enuff for me. There's nothing new under the Sun.
Slavery, killing your mistress' husband so you can marry her, sleeping with your daughters, and having children killed who make fun of your baldness were also acceptable to the ancient Hebrews, according to the Bible (which may or may not be accurate, but that's not the point). While those things may have been good enough for them, they aren't for modern Hebrews or, God be thanked, almost everyone else.
There are a lot of new things under the Sun. Protecting the Earth is, to our peril, belatedly one of them.
TW
Just remember that every piece of trash that the caretaker has to sift through and pick out...he or she has to pack out for you.
Composting can go very easy for them...or very very difficult. Definitely the best privy system all through the whites and huge amounts of effort go into it. That picture is 1....1 collector bin of how many, I don't know the exact number.
But simple fact is John your right, composting privies use "duff" as the natural composting material and a cat hole, properly done, does the same thing. No difference, and on a much smaller scale.
Have you ever wondered why the have the privy system or so many composting latrines on the AT? Just take a look around the perimeter of any shelter that doesn't have one and you'll have your answer. :eek:
As you correctly pointed out- "huge amounts of effort go into it" I HAVE helped w/ the composting up there. As the picture you provided shows paper tends to be the last to compost. People leave their trash in the latrines for the same reason you bury your trash in the woods. They think its cool and they don't care. :(
Thank you for sharing how you bury your litter, but you never gave reasons why - other than to say there is "no difference" between that and the weeks of work and huge effort it takes to compost in the Whites. Kid yourself my friend- it's not close. Even when you bury your trash proper there is no way you can guarantee it won't be dug up in that "soft soil" you always manage to find, soon after you leave.:-? Throwing your beer cans in the lake would be closer to being the same.:o
Doesn't matter if you are "a terrible person" or a good ol' boy. Only nice people give valid advise??:rolleyes: Experience, facts and common sense are better indicators than perceived niceness. Con artist are successful by coming across as wonderful people! The good ol boy mantra of got r done, good enuff, can't see it from my house-- seems to be the- reason- given here for not packing out ones trash.:(
By all means, if one does not have the wherewithal to burn a few pieces of TP w/o burning down the forest- pack it out instead!:D
I could be wrong but I seem to remember that the duff you mention has to flown in and its not leaves from your yard either. But there is a reason they go to the trouble. Can you imagine what the Whites would look like today w/o those latrines?? Much nastier than a few squares folded into my trash squeemish ones. And BTW, one zip is all it takes for all my trash (and a bunch of others) between towns. Why would you waste a zip for everyday?:confused:
It wasn't that long ago people looked down there nose at recycling, organics, lightweight gear. :eek: Now its mainstream.
The world evolves everyday and some fall behind- doesn't mean you can't catch up.;):)
beakerman
07-19-2009, 18:52
TW...
Like I said I've got to think on this. I still contend all you are doing is moving the problem from one place to another (save for bacteria issues). Under my current practice I see no need to pack out my TP--I burn it so it is essentially a non-issue.
I would need accurate statistics to make any kind of intelligent judgements about various segments of any trail. Numbers of visitors per mile and the frequency of those visits along with what practices they are using--are they deep enough and far enough off the trail and so on. I don't think that information is availible. I smell a grant proposal...I could hike the trail and get paid for it to keep tabs on the habits of the visitors.
We have had some good exchange of information here...plenty of food for the brain that is for sure. If you ever find yourself down here in the great state of Texas, particularly in and around Houston drop me a line and I'll buy you a beer or what ever your poison is...we can trade notes on this.
Deuteronomy 24: 12-13 You are to have a place outside the camp to serve as a latrine. You must have a spade among your other equipment and when you relieve yourself outside you must dig a hole with the spade and then turn and cover your excrement.
Burying it was good enuff for the Hebrews, good enuff for me. There's nothing new under the Sun.
Deuteronomy 23: 1
He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.
That's good advice, don't get wounded in the stones, and don't cut your privy member off. Words to live by.
The Weasel
07-19-2009, 19:39
Beak ---
I'll have that beer. LoneStar is good stuff.
As for measuring it, go ahead. But sometimes, you don't need to quantify a problem to know you have a problem: TP left on the trail all too often becomes visual pollution. The science has already been done on the spread of giardia in the backcountry by (in part) human waste being buried. Many people don't bury waste properly (200' from water, etc) even when they think they are doing so. These are obvious problems even in places that are sturdier than, say, Ranier glaciers and the Colorado River in Grand Canyon NP. Leaching is a self-evident problem. And so on.
I lived by the Detroit River before Rachel Carson's book was popular, and we didn't need to have it "studied" to know it was dying. I drove through Niagara Falls/Buffalo years before Love Canal, and we didn't need to have the air and ground "studied" to know it was terrifyingly dangerous. Yes, studying a problem can tell us much about it, but we can identify problems without studies, and then start correcting them even as we learn more about them.
We don't cook over open fires; we carry stoves. We don't bury tin cans; we pack them out. We know why, without studying why. (And, as to trash, yes, we're just "moving the problem around, but that doesn't justify leaving trash along the trail.) The time is now to carry out TP and waste.
I'll enjoy that beer.
TW
This **** is getting old. (should we bury it or carry it out) :D
Protecting the Earth is, to our peril, belatedly one of them.
TW
We can't protect the earth no more than we can destroy it. When the earths time is over, its over. We'll already be extinct as a species way before then anyway...Toilet paper matters not.
BTW, I hate to see it laying around, so simple to just cover it up.
Deuteronomy 23: 1
He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord.
That's good advice, don't get wounded in the stones, and don't cut your privy member off. Words to live by.
HA! I just knew somebody would find that and post it...thanks:)
Homer&Marje
07-19-2009, 21:53
Ahhh the poo thread is almost over. It was a good one though...could have been a Cronkite special:eek:
All kidding aside..he was a good guy. Probably wouldn't report, on poo
All conversations by middle age men eventually center around it. That or farting.
The Weasel
07-19-2009, 23:08
Ahhh the poo thread is almost over. It was a good one though...could have been a Cronkite special:eek:
All kidding aside..he was a good guy. Probably wouldn't report, on poo
He did.
"Arthur C. Clarke, preeminent science fiction author of “The Sentinel,” which was the basis of “2001: A Space Odyssey,” famously said to Walter Cronkite, “There is no such thing as waste, there are only resources we are too stupid to know how to use.”'
http://solidwastedisposalnj.234487.free-press-release.com/
TW
beakerman
07-20-2009, 01:12
Beak ---
I'll have that beer. LoneStar is good stuff.
As for measuring it, go ahead. But sometimes, you don't need to quantify a problem to know you have a problem: TP left on the trail all too often becomes visual pollution. The science has already been done on the spread of giardia in the backcountry by (in part) human waste being buried. Many people don't bury waste properly (200' from water, etc) even when they think they are doing so. These are obvious problems even in places that are sturdier than, say, Ranier glaciers and the Colorado River in Grand Canyon NP. Leaching is a self-evident problem. And so on.
I lived by the Detroit River before Rachel Carson's book was popular, and we didn't need to have it "studied" to know it was dying. I drove through Niagara Falls/Buffalo years before Love Canal, and we didn't need to have the air and ground "studied" to know it was terrifyingly dangerous. Yes, studying a problem can tell us much about it, but we can identify problems without studies, and then start correcting them even as we learn more about them.
We don't cook over open fires; we carry stoves. We don't bury tin cans; we pack them out. We know why, without studying why. (And, as to trash, yes, we're just "moving the problem around, but that doesn't justify leaving trash along the trail.) The time is now to carry out TP and waste.
I'll enjoy that beer.
TW
Agreed but shouldn't policy be set by science not what gives a clean conscience particularly when it comes to health? I am proposing a study to determine the extent of the problem so it can be managed or eliminated in a sensible fashion rather than what could be terms a knee jerk/feel good reaction.
as for beer might I suggest a shiner instead? It's a bit more flavorful than Lone Star and by far my favorite of the local. I still prefer Yeunglings but I just can't get it here yet...I need more yankee transplants to build a market for it.
The Weasel
07-20-2009, 09:44
Beak--
Sure, studies are nice. They are also a way to fiddle while the house burns. But go ahead. Yet empiricism works, too: If you can identify a problem, and ways to begin solving it, even if imperfectly, then you start solving the problem. Otherwise, 'the perfect becomes the enemy of of the possible.'
When I drink beer, I drink 'local'.
r
Read an artical in the paper from a couple of days ago. It's title: Selfish Act Has Ripple Effect, about someone who tried to flush a diaper in an airplane. I pictured a couple of folks on this thread burying the diaper in the woods- lol.:)
God wants us to litter; that is special.;)
This thread has made me think. :-?.......:eek:
I'm capable of lowering my impact a little more.:o
I'll pack out my latrine TP even though I think thats the one place in the woods that it is ok. And I'm going to try packing out some poop in high use areas w/o latrines even though I've always thought mixed and buried were "good enuff.":)
Usually I'll have enough trash every other shelter to have a quick fire while I eat lunch or check the register. My attitude is if you I see trash and don't pick it up (within reason) then I littered.:( I've a bit of the clean freak OCD in me (more so on the trail than at home) so I make it work in a good way. I take more pride in being a one man trail crew than I ever did from just walkin.;)
If it makes any litterbugs feel better, I was one of you, probably for longer than any of you- before I started packing out my TP, peanut shells, others litter, etc., etc. :o I saw the light!:sun
Ever since I've been born again and can't help but to spread the good word!:banana
as for beer might I suggest a shiner instead? It's a bit more flavorful than Lone Star and by far my favorite of the local. I still prefer Yeunglings but I just can't get it here yet...I need more yankee transplants to build a market for it.
Lone Star is to Texas what Fosters is to Oz- the locals don't drink it much. :-?Shiner is the real deal- kinda the Yeungling of Texas- which I like too but some people, well, don't.:confused: I drink PBR so those are my standards.:D
Homer&Marje
07-20-2009, 13:57
Have you ever wondered why the have the privy system or so many composting latrines on the AT? Just take a look around the perimeter of any shelter that doesn't have one and you'll have your answer. :eek:
As you correctly pointed out- "huge amounts of effort go into it" I HAVE helped w/ the composting up there. As the picture you provided shows paper tends to be the last to compost. People leave their trash in the latrines for the same reason you bury your trash in the woods. They think its cool and they don't care. :(
Thank you for sharing how you bury your litter, but you never gave reasons why - other than to say there is "no difference" between that and the weeks of work and huge effort it takes to compost in the Whites. Kid yourself my friend- it's not close. Even when you bury your trash proper there is no way you can guarantee it won't be dug up in that "soft soil" you always manage to find, soon after you leave.:-? Throwing your beer cans in the lake would be closer to being the same.:o
Doesn't matter if you are "a terrible person" or a good ol' boy. Only nice people give valid advise??:rolleyes: Experience, facts and common sense are better indicators than perceived niceness. Con artist are successful by coming across as wonderful people! The good ol boy mantra of got r done, good enuff, can't see it from my house-- seems to be the- reason- given here for not packing out ones trash.:(
By all means, if one does not have the wherewithal to burn a few pieces of TP w/o burning down the forest- pack it out instead!:D
I could be wrong but I seem to remember that the duff you mention has to flown in and its not leaves from your yard either. But there is a reason they go to the trouble. Can you imagine what the Whites would look like today w/o those latrines?? Much nastier than a few squares folded into my trash squeemish ones. And BTW, one zip is all it takes for all my trash (and a bunch of others) between towns. Why would you waste a zip for everyday?:confused:
It wasn't that long ago people looked down there nose at recycling, organics, lightweight gear. :eek: Now its mainstream.
The world evolves everyday and some fall behind- doesn't mean you can't catch up.;):)
I've never seen this diversity of emoticons in one post...Who are you talking to? Cause you quoted me but...I'm concerned with a few of your points.
I use 1 ziploc bag per trip (and have RE USED) the same ziploc bag for many trips when I can. As I posted....
I pack out ALL my trash, not TP. When the caretakers pick trash out of the collection bins they leave the TP and take out all solid trash items that anyone rudely discards in there.
Please don't tell me I'm not evolved with the rest of the world. I have experience, facts, and common sense to base my opinions on thank you though.
The duff that is flown in I believe is done so so that the natural ground "duff" that is produced would be quickly used up in a White Mountain Privy situation, leaving the surrounding area barren of any floor covering.
What I speak of putting in the cat hole is simply the SAME thing, adding natural surrounding organic material with the waste in which it composts, along with the TP. What the duff that is flown in does is add a slightly composted already organic material...like grabbing the wet leaves under the layer of dry ones. Simple organic chemistry. Try it out in your yard if you think I'm wrong. Take a crap in a cat hole in your backyard, put TP in it, add some wet leaves, twigs and bark, cover it. And then tell us in 3 months what has happened to it. Personally I don't like to sift through my cat holes after they are full, but it might be something up your alley with all your scientific desire for inquiry. Experiment for us...
I cannot guarantee that my cat hole will not get dug up by an animal. There is no guarantee that a Privy will not be subject to an animals curiosity, as well as a honey bag left in tent, in pack, outside shelter, tent or otherwise.
If you carry poop and used TP around with you in your pack, please, PLEASE don't brag about it and show it to me! Best that I never know about it! :eek:
This **** is getting old. (should we bury it or carry it out) :D
Seriously, whenever the topic comes up the weasel will not shuddup until people stop challenging his nasty habbits. I would hate to run into him on the trail... while you are looking at flowers and scenics vistas, he'll be out spotting and showing you cat holes and tp for sure. :rolleyes:
Imagine the poor assistant manager at the AYCE restaurant. After two months of putting in job app's, finaly got this job last week. Manager big boss honcho is watching when in walks a stinky hiker with a bag of crap. "Hi there assistant manager person" he or she says, "would you mind if I carry my weeks worth of poo through your restauarant, and flush it down your toilet, along with a pound and a half of toilet clogging cat litter?". Can you imagine?
I've never seen this diversity of emoticons in one post...Who are you talking to? Cause you quoted me but...I'm concerned with a few of your points.
>Thank you, thank you very much.:o:p Ever since WB upgraged from 4max I've been in emoticon heaven!:D:banana Sometimes I answer you directly, other times I use your qoute too make a point!:)
I use 1 ziploc bag per trip (and have RE USED) the same ziploc bag for many trips when I can. As I posted....
>When you say trip, I assume your mean a thru hike. :confused: Regardless, I think thats cool!:sun My point was that I don't use extra bags to pack out trash and those can be reused as well!:eek:
I pack out ALL my trash, not TP. When the caretakers pick trash out of the collection bins they leave the TP and take out all solid trash items that anyone rudely discards in there.
> You don't consider TP trash and I do. I have offered many examples and aurguments where you have not.:(
Please don't tell me I'm not evolved with the rest of the world. I have experience, facts, and common sense to base my opinions on thank you though.
> Your welcome!;):) Some of us are just born knowing everything, you, the Dali Lama, the list goes on....:rolleyes: Me, I'm a slow learner.:o It wasn't 'till my 6th trip that I had enough experience and facts for common sense to take over old ways of thinking...:-? But I'm a terrible person, so don't listen to me...:D
The duff that is flown in I believe is done so so that the natural ground "duff" that is produced would be quickly used up in a White Mountain Privy situation, leaving the surrounding area barren of any floor covering.
> I know.;)
But all that trouble and expense is required because most people in the outdoors, lets be honest, are not outdoorsmen. :eek: IMHI, folks who bury their TP fall into the later category, sorry.:cool:
I understand you and have no hard feelings toward you- just trying to shed some light on way that doesn't leave litter to chance.;)
What I speak of putting in the cat hole is simply the SAME thing, adding natural surrounding organic material with the waste in which it composts, along with the TP. What the duff that is flown in does is add a slightly composted already organic material...like grabbing the wet leaves under the layer of dry ones. Simple organic chemistry. Try it out in your yard if you think I'm wrong. Take a crap in a cat hole in your backyard, put TP in it, add some wet leaves, twigs and bark, cover it. And then tell us in 3 months what has happened to it. Personally I don't like to sift through my cat holes after they are full, but it might be something up your alley with all your scientific desire for inquiry. Experiment for us...
> You know I tried that!!:eek:
Lucky for me there is always soft soil in MBY:D, wet leaves too! All the neighbors have the hard black clay. :)
And the results are in........(imagine a drum roll here.........) never made it past three days before my dogs dug it up. Tp everywhere! I'm not going to beat myself up too much though:o- common sense, facts, experience told me those results were likely.;)
I cannot guarantee that my cat hole will not get dug up by an animal. There is no guarantee that a Privy will not be subject to an animals curiosity, as well as a honey bag left in tent, in pack, outside shelter, tent or otherwise.
> Thanks for admitting I'm right and further inspiring me to pack out ALL my TP. I CAN guarantee my TP will never become litter, so can you, so can anybody. And its EASY, real easy. :banana
But again, me cussing efin litterbugs is nothing personal!:D
BTW, you forgot to add hanging food from a limb to your list.:banana If one has concerns w/ protecting themselves, their food, the hikers behind them, AND the bear they should carry a bear canister. We are back to the guarantee argument on this subject too, for those of you wishing to debate.:p
Sorry about the post within your post. I'm way behind you on the computer curve.:o
Imagine the poor assistant manager at the AYCE restaurant. After two months of putting in job app's, finaly got this job last week. Manager big boss honcho is watching when in walks a stinky hiker with a bag of crap. "Hi there assistant manager person" he or she says, "would you mind if I carry my weeks worth of poo through your restauarant, and flush it down your toilet, along with a pound and a half of toilet clogging cat litter?". Can you imagine?
A lot of municipal waste water treatment facilities regularly release raw sewage into bodies of water. Especially after a heavy rainfall. It is entirely plausible, that someone with good intentions could **** in the woods, carry it out, flush it back at home, and have it end up in the ocean.
Sometimes... it's better to leave well enough alone.
A lot of municipal waste water treatment facilities regularly release raw sewage into bodies of water. Especially after a heavy rainfall. It is entirely plausible, that someone with good intentions could **** in the woods, carry it out, flush it back at home, and have it end up in the ocean.
Sometimes... it's better to leave well enough alone.
That has me thinking :eek:, maybe I should start playing the lotto and triple treatin me water!:p
Homer&Marje
07-20-2009, 15:33
I guarantee if I walk by 100 people on the trail and tell them that I bury my TP in the ground, 99 of them will not consider me a litterbug.
If I walk by the same 100 people and tell them that I have a bag full of TP and human waste mixed with cat litter....unless 1 person is you....99 of them are going to consider me something much worse.
Do whatever you want....I practice LNT and have actually been fortunate enough that I have not dug a cat hole since last summer...I'll tell you exactly where it is if you want to go check how it's doing.
Sorry I'm not an outdoorsman enough for you because I bury my TP, In my consideration your not very outdoorsman like if you need to rely on a flush toilet and society in order to dispose of your waste.
I prefer to stay in the woods and not walk into local establishments and ask them where I can flush my ****.