Hiker rescued from Mahoosuc Notch

[wilconow]

Found on the excellent Hiking Hell blog

http://hikerhell.blogspot.com/2009/07/hiker-rescued-after-taking-tumble-on.html

[TJ aka Teej]

Interesting site, thanks wilco

[modiyooch]

Does anyone know how this guy is doing?

[billski]

I am the fellow who took the fall. I'm in fair condition, now released from the hospital. Happy to discuss what went right and wrong in the hike. Still wracking my brain to try and identify anything I could have done differently to prevent it. Been hiking for 35 years, and was very well prepared in all aspects. Have hiked many rugged areas before, there was nothing really new for me, though the notch is just simply very cool. Sometimes it's just bad luck, but it's always worth reviewing.

At this point, I want to drop two huge compliments:

first to the two thru hikers (names escape me, I was hurtin' pretty bad) from Georgia who stopped to help. They were simply outstanding examples helpful compassionate AT hikers we all aim to be. They stayed with me the whole afternoon, provided their sleeping gear and hammock to arrest my hypothermia. It took resuce quite a while to arrive and the hiker's attention, ensuring I didn't go to sleep was most appreciated. I believe my companions have their names, but I want to ge this shout out now.

Second to the rescue crew, first arrived from Berlin FD and rescue and later from many other jurisdictions. They were hugely attentive, patient and kind. They were capable and competent. After it quickly became clear that a helicopter evac wasn't going to happen due to the terrain and lack of foliage opening for a Stokes basket, the hand-carry was brilliant, difficult and (for me due to vomiting) very slow and long.
Berlin FD had a 4x4 ambulance which took me out over 10 miles of logging roads, no fun either.
I will write more later,as fatigue sets in now. I aim to be back out on the trail as soon as possible, as I just love the woods. I'll remain as dilligent and cautious as I ever have been. I hope there is something to be learned here.

If you want to see the most authoritative article written, it is here:
http://www.sunjournal.com/node/35994/

Thnks for listening. I am interested in your comments.

[Blissful]

Glad you're okay. Sometimes no matter the planning and skill and how careful you are, things happen and injuries occur. Though I have to say , most of my injuries occured because I was hiking too fast for the terrain, conditions, etc.

[buckwheat]

They stayed with me the whole afternoon, provided their sleeping gear and hammock to arrest my hypothermia.

I'd be most interested to hear how you became hypothermic (given it was the middle of July). What protection if any did you have to prevent hypothermia?

Also, two news reports said a helicopter wasn't available to transport you and that's why you ended up having to be transported by ambulance over 10 miles of bad road. That's significantly different than a helicopter being available but unable to participate in the rescue.

Was a helicopter available? Or just unable to assist given the situation? (I think this is important information for those choosing to hike in that area if they know in advance that the authorities are unprepared to mount a proper helicopter rescue.)

Glad you're OK. I was recently hiking in Glacier National Park and came very close to breaking my leg when I busted through some snow covered rocks, twisted and fell. (Thankfully, somehow my fall was arrested just shy of actually breaking my bone). It would have been a similarly difficult rescue, so I'm thankful I didn't require one.

[CrumbSnatcher]

i believe you can become hypothermic anytime of the year. i always carry my stocking when i go hiking. even in the summer!!! When i stop to take a break maybe with a soaked shirt, wind blowing up on a ridge it gets chilly sometimes. YOU lose most of your body heat thru your head! im glad he's ok.

[kayak karl]

I'd be most interested to hear how you became hypothermic (given it was the middle of July). What protection if any did you have to prevent hypothermia?
hypothermia sets in when body temp hits 97-96*. the time of year has nothing to do with it and can be related to injuries and shock. even wrapping is blankets sometimes can not stop it if the body is losing its ability to heat itself.

billski, glad to hear your recovering. take care, get well and back on the trail.
KK
.

[Snowleopard]

I'd be most interested to hear how you became hypothermic (given it was the middle of July). What protection if any did you have to prevent hypothermia?



The notch is a narrow gully littered with house-sized boulders through which the trail passes around and under a series of cool, wet and rocky caves.

"It is always 45 degrees to 50 degrees Fahrenheit in there, not the 70 degrees like it is here,"

There has been a lot of cold wet weather in New England this summer. With temps in the 50s and heavy rain it's easy to get wet and hypothermic without a head injury.

It would be hard to protect yourself from hypothermia with a head injury even with ample gear. The other hikers may have kept the situation from getting worse by taking care of him till the rescue.

Billski, I hope you're better now. Everybody be careful out there.
--Walter

[tenbeer]

Who were the thru hikers. They deserve a compliment here.

[billski]

Thanks to all for the good vibes. I sure do want to get back out, but healing is the first priority.

I'll take the issues one at a time, in separate messages, just 'cause it's a bit hard to focus.

Hypothermia
After it became clear that I wasn't going to make it out on my own, the next option was to lay me down. It had rained the night before and the surrounding soil and moss was quite moist. Couple that with the entire Mahoosuc notch being boulders that hold the cold (sans the snow/ice visible all year), made for a wet, cold place to lay down. Even with rain jackets and space blankets underneath, it was very cold beneath me. I laid on the ground 1-2 hours. I began to shake pretty severely. They rubbed my limbs and it would help a bit.

The EMTs when arrived, noted that my face was white, so getting me off the ground was critical. One thru hiker had a hammock, they set that up and put a sleeping bag under, and put me into a second. Within less than 1/2 hour the color was back in my face. While they kept checking my pulse, it's interesting that nobody ever checked my temp till I got to the hospital.

[billski]

Who were the thru hikers. They deserve a compliment here.
I will get their trail names (I hope) from my brother-in-law in the next day or two and let you all know.

[billski]

Thanks to all for the good vibes. I sure do want to get back out, but healing is the first priority.

I'll take the issues one at a time, in separate messages, just 'cause it's a bit hard to focus.

Hypothermia
After it became clear that I wasn't going to make it out on my own, the next option was to lay me down. It had rained the night before and the surrounding soil and moss was quite moist. Couple that with the entire Mahoosuc notch being boulders that hold the cold (sans the snow/ice visible all year), made for a wet, cold place to lay down. Even with rain jackets and space blankets underneath, it was very cold beneath me. I laid on the ground 1-2 hours. I began to shake pretty severely. They rubbed my limbs and it would help a bit.

The EMTs when arrived, noted that my face was white, so getting me off the ground was critical. One thru hiker had a hammock, they set that up and put a sleeping bag under, and put me into a second. Within less than 1/2 hour the color was back in my face. While they kept checking my pulse, it's interesting that nobody ever checked my temp till I got to the hospital.

There was great concern I was going into shock, as I had all the symptoms.

[billski]

There was great concern I was going into shock, as I had all the symptoms. The smartest thing I had in my pack was a winter wool ski cap. It proved essential.

[billski]

Helicopters are scare in the region. However, the first thing the rescue crew did after assessing me and stabilizing me was to send scouts out for a viable location for a stokes basket pull. They could not find a viable place to drop a basket: The props from the plane, push down some serious air and make the surrounding trees bend, further minimizing the amount of clearance for a basket drop. It was determined that the only viable clearing, at the intersection of the Mahoosuc and Notch trails was only 20 x 30 feet, insufficient size due to props blowdown. It would have guaranteed the cables getting hung up in the trees.

If they had found a larger area, they would have requested a blackhawk helicopter from Maine National Guard. Instead, I got a 2-mile carry down trail. Luckily, NH F&G had a wheel to attach to the stokes, which all the rescue teams thought was the absolute best thing possible, and it was. It was no easy ride for me, as I was puking the whole way down, just making them more concerned about my viability. This was an #1 top notch team. We go out just before headlamps were needed. All the agencies that didn't have that wheel wanted one by the time we hit bottom.

Berlin has a 4x4 ambulance, which while essential, ain't no limo ride either. Puking the whole way, but it too was the right tool for the job.

Thanks again for your kind thoughts!

[Namaste]

So glad to hear you are ok. I know sometimes these crazy things can happen to the most seasoned hikers.

I was in the Notch early August last year and I was surprised to see several large chunks of ice way down beneath some of the boulders. I was with a group where in some areas we had to take our packs off and pass them thru or over the rocks to keep moving. I remember the chilling air coming up from below and calling out to everyone to keep moving because it was getting cold. The air temp was warm but not warm enough for me to stand and wait comfortably too long. I am also known as a polar bear because I NEVER get cold.

It's great to hear that there were many hikers there to help out in whatever way they can. That's a tough area to maneuver about.

[Jim Adams]

I'd be most interested to hear how you became hypothermic (given it was the middle of July). What protection if any did you have to prevent hypothermia?

Also, two news reports said a helicopter wasn't available to transport you and that's why you ended up having to be transported by ambulance over 10 miles of bad road. That's significantly different than a helicopter being available but unable to participate in the rescue.

Was a helicopter available? Or just unable to assist given the situation? (I think this is important information for those choosing to hike in that area if they know in advance that the authorities are unprepared to mount a proper helicopter rescue.)

Glad you're OK. I was recently hiking in Glacier National Park and came very close to breaking my leg when I busted through some snow covered rocks, twisted and fell. (Thankfully, somehow my fall was arrested just shy of actually breaking my bone). It would have been a similarly difficult rescue, so I'm thankful I didn't require one.

OK, let me review this...you don't understand the how's and why's of hypothermia and you think that it is the authorities responsibility to supply helicoptor rescue to the public...maybe we do need those hiker safety courses required before allowing the public into wilderness areas! :rolleyes:

geek

[buckwheat]

OK, let me review this...you don't understand the how's and why's of hypothermia and you think that it is the authorities responsibility to supply helicoptor rescue to the public...maybe we do need those hiker safety courses required before allowing the public into wilderness areas! :rolleyes:

geek

Geek,

Thanks. I do understand the how's and why's of hypothermia, and asked the question so that the writer could give a first-hand account of how, in the middle of July, he became hypothermic nevertheless with all the gear at his disposal.

I asked about the helicopters because New Hampshire emergency services have a fleet of helicopters paid for by its taxpayers for use in rescues of just this type.

There is a concern, however, that they are undependable and not properly maintained. It's important to know this when hiking in that area, since it is quite easy to be highly trained and prepared for your hike, yet nevertheless encounter circumstances which require your rescue.

It is, without any doubt, the authorities' responsibility to be able to conduct a proper helicopter rescue of anyone hiking NH mountains. We train, equip and pay NH emergency officials to do precisely that, and if they can't perform the task, we need to find folks who can.

The more public attention which is brought onto NH authorities inability to conduct a proper helicopter rescue the better, in my view. The Golden Hour is breached when someone is required to be transported 10 miles over fire road via ambulance instead of properly med-evac'd out by helicopter.

(It's understandable they couldn't get a basket down to where this guy was laying, but unbelieveable that they couldn't get a chopper transport of a hypothermic patient with head injuries.)

[billski]

I will get their trail names (I hope) from my brother-in-law in the next day or two and let you all know.


A HUGE THANK YOU TO THRU-HIKERS:

Steven Parrish (Root Beer Float)

Dave Evans (Trail Name not known)

[Jayboflavin04]

Thanks for sharing Billski, hope you are back on the trail soon....Hats off to the "Thru's".....And for a simple lesson learned that something as simple as a stocking cap can save a life. Wasnt gonna pack it on my coming up trip, but will be one of my essentials from now on.

[The Scribe]

Geek,

Thanks. I do understand the how's and why's of hypothermia, and asked the question so that the writer could give a first-hand account of how, in the middle of July, he became hypothermic nevertheless with all the gear at his disposal.

I asked about the helicopters because New Hampshire emergency services have a fleet of helicopters paid for by its taxpayers for use in rescues of just this type.

There is a concern, however, that they are undependable and not properly maintained. It's important to know this when hiking in that area, since it is quite easy to be highly trained and prepared for your hike, yet nevertheless encounter circumstances which require your rescue.

It is, without any doubt, the authorities' responsibility to be able to conduct a proper helicopter rescue of anyone hiking NH mountains. We train, equip and pay NH emergency officials to do precisely that, and if they can't perform the task, we need to find folks who can.

The more public attention which is brought onto NH authorities inability to conduct a proper helicopter rescue the better, in my view. The Golden Hour is breached when someone is required to be transported 10 miles over fire road via ambulance instead of properly med-evac'd out by helicopter.

(It's understandable they couldn't get a basket down to where this guy was laying, but unbelieveable that they couldn't get a chopper transport of a hypothermic patient with head injuries.)

Buckwheat, I see you're still at it. Can you please provide a link or other information to back your point that NH's helicopter fleet is undependable and not properly maintained. And I think you have asserted in another thread, mismanaged.

If in fact that's the case, you have my apologies, but I would like to see where you get your information from.

Ironically, before I read your post, I toyed with the idea of a sarcastic post wondering if Maine's helicopter fleet was mismanaged and unreliable as well or does maybe Maine outsource the work to NH?

I am surprised you haven't made the point that Maine isn't sending the guy a bill. Maine is the polar opposite of NH. Maine welcomes everyone, takes care of everyone, then has no money to take care of anyone.

[buckwheat]

Scribe,

I've written that there is a concern that NH rescue helicopters are undependable, and that maintenance of the small fleet is likely one of the reasons. There is a paucity of data available, except what I've been reading in local newspapers.

Keep in mind that New Hampshire is a state that spends millions of dollars annually advertising to convince people to come climb its mountains in the summer and ski on them in the winter. Many New Hampshire communities would not exist if it were not for the tourist dollars that the state brings in through its advertising.

The state spends millions each year on building parks for the tourists and charging for campsites and entrance fees. Many New Hampshire citizens enjoy an excellent living off the tourists the state convinces to come. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

However, the state of New Hampshire then has a moral obligation to provide emergency medical services to the people it invites to partake of dangerous activities on its mountains, in my view. Frequently, it is unable to do so ... as in the case of this hiker, who had to be transported via 4-wheel-drive ambulance because a helicopter was unavailable. (News reports don't say why, which is why I'm asking so many questions of the OP about that issue).

There's a philosophy in emergency medical treatment called the "Golden Hour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hour_%28medicine%29)" which basically posits that in trauma cases such as you might find when people have fallen off a New Hampshire mountain and become hypothermic, the authorities need to get the patient to a hospital within "the golden hour" to maximize their chances for survival.

Helicopters make that possible in New Hampshire, where frequently you are 50 or more miles from a hospital to begin with (not to mention that you might be on the side of a mountain).

New Hampshire citizens make lots of money from the hikers and skiers, who bring their families to the state to enjoy the outdoors; many at the urging of the state of New Hampshire. Some of that money should be put into making sure it's a safe place to bring your family.

New Hampshire is frequently having to call upon helicopters in other states (Vermont and Maine most often, but also Massachusetts). This is a great deal for New Hampshire, because it puts the cost onus on the taxpayers in other states.

But it's a deadly practice and it raises the question whether the state is putting greed ahead of the effectiveness of emergency operations in New Hampshire.

It's pretty clear to me that the state of New Hampshire does not have enough rescue helicopters. Here is a news article (http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2009/07/09/nh_hospital_to_relocate_rescue_helicopter_12471503 19/) concerning one of two which was recently moved further south away from the White Mountains to extreme southern New Hampshire. Concerns are expressed in the article whether this is a good idea and reduces response times.

I hike in New Hampshire, and spend a considerable sum doing so and am concerned about why frequently I read that a rescue helicopter was unable to transport hikers and skiers who need emergency medical transportation.

Hope that explains my concerns.

[wrongway_08]

Was under the idea that the helicopter was not able to get to him due to the trees, not for any other reason?

You cant get to everyone everytime.

I dont think its a moral obligation to get to them. If they can, thats great but weather, trees and other factors effecting the safety of the rescuers comes first.

[mudhead]

That is what I read. The clearing is big enough for a small group to stand around in, but is down in there. Like a liquor box.

The trail they took him down is also heavily wooded. I would be satisfied if they hauled me out that way.

Might be a few ANG choppers on desert duty.

[janiebeth]

Billski, I am so glad that you are recovering from your ordeal. I am Steven's ( Root Beer Float) Mom. I am so proud of him and I thank God for putting him in the right place at the right time.

[billski]

That is what I read. The clearing is big enough for a small group to stand around in, but is down in there. Like a liquor box.

The trail they took him down is also heavily wooded. I would be satisfied if they hauled me out that way.

Might be a few ANG choppers on desert duty.

I honestly had no idea how grave my condition was until I was in the hospital. The rescue team was desperately looking for the fastest way out. This wasn't a broken leg that can wait.

While the terrain made any helicopter drop impossible, the Maine ANG copter was deployed to the middle east. The first responders sent scouts up the mountains to view for sites, even before they requested a helicopter. There were jurisdictional issues because I entered in NH, fell in Maine, but was retrieved through NH. Its my understanding NH F&G was in charge. Regardless, the state teams worked seamlessly.

The problem with that clearing, was that when the copter hovers above, it creates such downdraft that the trees bend, making the space even more constricted. Too much chance for entanglement.

I was 100% behind all the rescue decision made (did I have I choice?). What I mean is that the best decisions were made in all cases.

---
Separate Thought
---
While I have no interest in self-aggrandizement, I do hope that readers of this story will all learn from it. First, it can happen to anyone anytime, anywhere, even right in your house. Second, all those Hike Safe guidelines are 100% on the mark.

Third lesson, is if you are rescued or assisted please say THANK YOU. Thank yous are free. It is amazing as I call the various rescue groups that they acknowledge that the majority of those served never send a thank you note or card. These guys disrupted their day, did difficult laborious work, and may have even put their own lives at risk. A little appreciation goes a long way. You want them there if you ever need them.


Bill

[billski]

Billski, I am so glad that you are recovering from your ordeal. I am Steven's ( Root Beer Float) Mom. I am so proud of him and I thank God for putting him in the right place at the right time.

Janiebeth,
Yes, you deserve to be so proud. Steve and Dave were my "Trail Angels" if ever there were ones, thank God. I hope he got all his equipment back. I will be forever indebted to them, I very well may not have made it that day. Thankfully, we all have a story to tell from this.

[buckwheat]

Was under the idea that the helicopter was not able to get to him due to the trees, not for any other reason? You cant get to everyone everytime.

Using a helicopter to remove someone from the mountain is one thing. Many times, that's not possible due to obstacles.

It is an altogether different thing when no helicopter is available at all ... not even to perform the important task of transporting a hypothermic patient to the hospital after they've been carried to the trailhead.

Frequently, I'm reading, a helicopter is unavailable in New Hampshire, or must be brought from another state. That's unacceptable when the state of New Hampshire lures people to the state to hike and ski and makes so much money off hikers and other sportsmen.

[Snowleopard]

A hiker was just carried out by helicopter from the Caps Ridge Trail on Mt. Jefferson, NH. http://unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Hikers+rescued+from+high+Whi te+Mountains+trails&articleId=63aab209-ce7c-4887-bfde-c6d02018b0e3 To illustrate the difficulties of using a helicopter, someone posted this picture of the Caps Ridge Trail on the newspaper's web site:
http://hikethewhites.com/clay/up08.jpg

[Jack Tarlin]

Buckwheat:

I have several friends who work at the nearby Dartmouth-Hitchcock medical facility, which may be the finest hospital in New England outside of Boston.

Among other things, this place has one of the top-rated orthopedic departments in the country, and they treat a great many outdoor-related injuries: In Northern New England, this is THE go-to place for accidents or emergencies involving climbing; skiiing; hiking; snowmobiling, etc.

Medevac choppers fly in and out of here all the time.

But the fact of the matter is that whether the aircraft is operated by an indidual hospital; a private company; or even a State Government, maintaining and flying helicopters is an extraordinarily expensive undertaking, and there will always be times when choppers aren't immediately available for one reason or another. Different States therefore frequently rely on help from their neighbors, just as city and town Fire Departments help each other out on many occasions.

But whether or not the helicopter in question comes from New Hampshire or somewhere else, someone's gotta pay for these things, and if it is determined that an individual's own behavior or recklessness contributed to their problems (including medical costs associated with their problems), then I see no reason why they shouldn't be expected to pay their own bills.

And lastly, I think you're a bit over the top with your comments about people being "lured" into coming to New Hampshire by the insidious folks who work for the Department of Tourism. Nobody in Masssachusetts is forced to come up here, and when one goes backpacking, one does so knowing that there are implied inherent risks involved with the activity.

But blaming the State of New Hampshire because they "lure" Bay Staters up here is kinda silly. If I travel down to Boston to see a Sox game or to visit friends, and if I tripped on the sidewalk during my visit, I'd most likely blame myself. I kinda doubt it would ever enter my mind to go after the Massachusetts Bureau of Travel and Tourism because they enticed me into making the visit. Yes, Massachusetts, like New Hampshire, is a wonderful place to visit, but nobody is forced to visit either place, so blaming a State government for one's bad luck or misfortune seems less than fair to me.

[Yahtzee]

Jack, not sure that tripping on a sidewalk on the way to a RedSox game is analogous to getting hurt while hiking. Maybe, say, getting hit by a ball at a Red Sox game because Fenway didn't put up any screens. Either way, it is NH's right to provide whatever services they like to its citizens and its visitors. At some pt. tho, all governments do a cost/benefit analysis as to whether a regulation/policy will, in fact, invite more tax dollars than it would expend. I'm thinking, lifeguards at the beach. At this pt., it seems NH has decided that to provide this service is an unnecessary expense.

[Jack Tarlin]

Unnecessary expense?

Actually, the State allocates thousands of dollars a year to emergency services, Search & Rescue operations, etc.

It is truly astounding to see to much expert information on the State of New Hampshire provided by people who don't live here.

[Snowleopard]

But the fact of the matter is that whether the aircraft is operated by an indidual hospital; a private company; or even a State Government, maintaining and flying helicopters is an extraordinarily expensive undertaking, and there will always be times when choppers aren't immediately available for one reason or another. Different States therefore frequently rely on help from their neighbors, just as city and town Fire Departments help each other out on many occasions.

Owning and operating a helicopter is too expensive for NH to keep one on call specifically for injured or lost outdoors people. How many hiker/climber/skier rescues happen in a summer week? 1? 2? 3? Maybe enough to keep the copter in the air for a few hours a week. Most of the usage of helicopters would be for traffic accidents or other medical emergencies not related to outdoors sports.

I used to work at the UMass Medical School in Worcester. The outdoor lunch area was next to the helipad and lunch conversation was often interrupted by the helicopter; there were many flights per day.

It must be really tough to carry someone down the Caps Ridge Trail. Mahoosuc Notch is supposedly tougher. I'm really grateful for the SAR people and volunteer litter carriers in these rescues. Next time it could be me or you that needs to be carried out.

[Yahtzee]

Do they provide helicopter service to all injured hikers who could use one? No. Then NH has decided that is an unnecessary expense. Very simple. Don't need to live in NH to figure that one out. Nor do you need to be an expert.

[The Old Fhart]

buckwheat-"Thanks. I do understand the how's and why's of hypothermia, and asked the question so that the writer could give a first-hand account of how, in the middle of July, he became hypothermic nevertheless with all the gear at his disposal."
You obviously don’t understand hypothermia or you wouldn’t repeatedly ask such inane questions. Once again I suggest you read this WB article on hypothermia (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=96956#post96956) (which I wrote) where it will tell you that someone with medical conditions, i.e., a concussion, could easily become hypothermic where a uninjured person under the same conditions would be fine. I have actually seen where a A.T. hiker south of Sunrise Mountain slipped and fell, knocking himself unconscious, landing in a couple of inches of water on a 90 degree day and was hypothermic when found.

buckwheat-"I asked about the helicopters because New Hampshire emergency services have a fleet of helicopters paid for by its taxpayers for use in rescues of just this type.

There is a concern, however, that they are undependable and not properly maintained. It's important to know this when hiking in that area, since it is quite easy to be highly trained and prepared for your hike, yet nevertheless encounter circumstances which require your rescue.

Just where do you come up with this B.S.? Once again, New Hampshire doesn’t have an “air fleet” as you continually claim. Please tell us who owns this so-called fleet and where it is located. What you will find if you actually research the issue is that helicopter service for rescue is provided by the ANG (if available) or Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center. This so-called “air fleet” exists only in your mind.


buckwheat-"It is, without any doubt, the authorities' responsibility to be able to conduct a proper helicopter rescue of anyone hiking NH mountains. We train, equip and pay NH emergency officials to do precisely that, and if they can't perform the task, we need to find folks who can. How about some facts to support your wild-azz claim. Who is the "we" that "train, equip and pay NH emergency officials" and who are these officials? Must be the Illuminari because you're the only one who knows of them.:rolleyes:

If you can't provide any facts to support these stories you make up you could at least stop trolling and let the rest of the posters have a reasonable discussion.

[billski]

I have spent a good deal of time researching the various responding SAR groups this past week in order to thank them all. In the final analysis, NH F&G is not equipped, funded or staffed to perform a full rescue of anyone. While F&G is ultimately responsible, it takes a quickly-formed collection of agencies and volunteers to be successful.

The NH outdoor council http://www.nhoutdoorcouncil.org/ is the focal point of SAR teams for the state. The vast majority of members are volunteers. Read any accounting of who participated in rescue operations and you will always see these groups mentioned.

What this suggests is that indeed state SAR coordination duties are the responsibility of the state, but as is often the case, they are underfunded and greatly depend on volunteers.

This is a bigger issue than SAR funding. It's a political issue. It speaks to how funds are appropriated at the state level for all agencies. Our esteemed legislators continually pass laws and fail to provide adequate funding for these laws. If they cannot even fund enough feet on the mountain to conduct a rescue, they never will be able to fund air transportation. Talk to your legislator in your state. It's the same problem everywhere. Become an advocate. Lobby to make it a priority.

[max patch]

And lastly, I think you're a bit over the top with your comments about people being "lured" into coming to New Hampshire by the insidious folks who work for the Department of Tourism.

Hanover was named one of the best places to live in the USA this month by Money Magazine.

[Lone Wolf]

Hanover was named one of the best places to live in the USA this month by Money Magazine.

yeah. for wealthy people not average joe

[celt]

yeah. for wealthy people not average joe

Baltimore Jack= wealthy with A.T. info?

[Lone Wolf]

Baltimore Jack= wealthy with A.T. info?

yeah sure. that is exactly what i was thinking :rolleyes:

[Homer&Marje]

And lastly, I think you're a bit over the top with your comments about people being "lured" into coming to New Hampshire by the insidious folks who work for the Department of Tourism. Nobody in Masssachusetts is forced to come up here, and when one goes backpacking, one does so knowing that there are implied inherent risks involved with the activity.

But blaming the State of New Hampshire because they "lure" Bay Staters up here is kinda silly. If I travel down to Boston to see a Sox game or to visit friends, and if I tripped on the sidewalk during my visit, I'd most likely blame myself. I kinda doubt it would ever enter my mind to go after the Massachusetts Bureau of Travel and Tourism because they enticed me into making the visit. Yes, Massachusetts, like New Hampshire, is a wonderful place to visit, but nobody is forced to visit either place, so blaming a State government for one's bad luck or misfortune seems less than fair to me.

I still disagree with charging for SAR....on this topic though

I have never felt lured by the state of NH to coming up there besides the mountains calling me. Advertising is for idiots. Buckwheat probably bought 13 slap chops for $19.95 and a set of Chamois to go with his Billy Maize guide to backpacking.

I hike with inherent risk in NH, MA, RI, CT and anywhere else I've been and it will never stop me. Complete BS your spitting out about us being lured by the advertisers....that's a load of crap. If THAT is why you go to NH..you should stop.




You obviously don’t understand hypothermia or you wouldn’t repeatedly ask such inane questions. Once again I suggest you read this WB article on hypothermia (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=96956#post96956) (which I wrote) where it will tell you that someone with medical conditions, i.e., a concussion, could easily become hypothermic where a uninjured person under the same conditions would be fine. I have actually seen where a A.T. hiker south of Sunrise Mountain slipped and fell, knocking himself unconscious, landing in a couple of inches of water on a 90 degree day and was hypothermic when found.

Correct


Just where do you come up with this B.S.? Once again, New Hampshire doesn’t have an “air fleet” as you continually claim. Please tell us who owns this so-called fleet and where it is located. What you will find if you actually research the issue is that helicopter service for rescue is provided by the ANG (if available) or Dartmouth-Hitchcock Medical Center. This so-called “air fleet” exists only in your mind.

Correct

How about some facts to support your wild-azz claim. Who is the "we" that "train, equip and pay NH emergency officials" and who are these officials? Must be the Illuminari because you're the only one who knows of them.:rolleyes:

Any facts?

If you can't provide any facts to support these stories you make up you could at least stop trolling and let the rest of the posters have a reasonable discussion.


Why don't you go ***** yourself, buddy.

I'm an ass and wouldn't even say that to TOF...too much experience to argue with...at least for NH

[The Scribe]

Scribe,

I've written that there is a concern that NH rescue helicopters are undependable, and that maintenance of the small fleet is likely one of the reasons. There is a paucity of data available, except what I've been reading in local newspapers.

Keep in mind that New Hampshire is a state that spends millions of dollars annually advertising to convince people to come climb its mountains in the summer and ski on them in the winter. Many New Hampshire communities would not exist if it were not for the tourist dollars that the state brings in through its advertising.

The state spends millions each year on building parks for the tourists and charging for campsites and entrance fees. Many New Hampshire citizens enjoy an excellent living off the tourists the state convinces to come. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

However, the state of New Hampshire then has a moral obligation to provide emergency medical services to the people it invites to partake of dangerous activities on its mountains, in my view. Frequently, it is unable to do so ... as in the case of this hiker, who had to be transported via 4-wheel-drive ambulance because a helicopter was unavailable. (News reports don't say why, which is why I'm asking so many questions of the OP about that issue).

There's a philosophy in emergency medical treatment called the "Golden Hour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hour_%28medicine%29)" which basically posits that in trauma cases such as you might find when people have fallen off a New Hampshire mountain and become hypothermic, the authorities need to get the patient to a hospital within "the golden hour" to maximize their chances for survival.

Helicopters make that possible in New Hampshire, where frequently you are 50 or more miles from a hospital to begin with (not to mention that you might be on the side of a mountain).

New Hampshire citizens make lots of money from the hikers and skiers, who bring their families to the state to enjoy the outdoors; many at the urging of the state of New Hampshire. Some of that money should be put into making sure it's a safe place to bring your family.

New Hampshire is frequently having to call upon helicopters in other states (Vermont and Maine most often, but also Massachusetts). This is a great deal for New Hampshire, because it puts the cost onus on the taxpayers in other states.

But it's a deadly practice and it raises the question whether the state is putting greed ahead of the effectiveness of emergency operations in New Hampshire.

It's pretty clear to me that the state of New Hampshire does not have enough rescue helicopters. Here is a news article (http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2009/07/09/nh_hospital_to_relocate_rescue_helicopter_12471503 19/) concerning one of two which was recently moved further south away from the White Mountains to extreme southern New Hampshire. Concerns are expressed in the article whether this is a good idea and reduces response times.

I hike in New Hampshire, and spend a considerable sum doing so and am concerned about why frequently I read that a rescue helicopter was unable to transport hikers and skiers who need emergency medical transportation.

Hope that explains my concerns.

Thanks for the one link about copters being moved to southern NH. Considering they are medivac copters that spend probably far more time picking up the pieces of auto accidents than hurt hikers, it makes sense.

Still waiting on other links to back your premise.

Oh, and if there is one thing I would NEVER do, it's disrespect TOF's knowledge of the Whites. Or Leap Seconds for that matter.

[Grits]

Being involved in WSAR for sometime I think we as hikers should work to educate and train ourselves to keep out of trouble and to be able to assist someone who does get hurt because things do happen. It is a matter of how ready we are when it happens. Here is a link to a study done on NH WSAR and a link to nasar that you can explore to gain more information as well as read the forums here on WB. HYOH
https://www.nasar.org/nasar/
http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/?request=get-abstract&issn=1080-6032&volume=015&issue=01&page=0011

[Jack Tarlin]

Wow. Great dialogue going on here.

We have people who are called out on their outrageous comments and their only response is to curse other people out....anonymously of course.

Bravo.

Then, we have other folks here, very regular posters, by the way, but they happen to be folks who haven't been up this way three times in the last nine years more than likely......but they seem to feel great about commenting all about New Hampshire; various towns in New Hampshire, you name it.

Then I see a Whiteblaze regular who likes to play Mr. Down-to Earth regular Joe pretending he knows all about Hanover NH, a town I just happen to have lived in for like thirteen years..... and the guy who's spouting his guff has maybe, repeat maybe, actually set foot here once in the last five years. And maybe not even that. If I'm wrong about this he's welcome to tell us about it.

Whatta complete load of horse****.

Move on folks, REALLY nothing to see here.

[yaduck9]

yeah. for wealthy people not average joe


LOL, So where is the problem?

Filthy, wealthy people are suckered to visit NH. They slip, fall, dive, crash, crunch and then NH sends them a bill.

Filthy, wealthy people pay bill, become mere wealthy people, everyone's happy!

Its a perfect government transfer of the rich to the not so rich, class warfare at its best!

Sounds foolproof, whats not to like.;)

[Wilson]

Thanks for the one link about copters being moved to southern NH. Considering they are medivac copters that spend probably far more time picking up the pieces of auto accidents than hurt hikers, it makes sense.
Any idea what they charge the person at fault in the auto accidents?

[weary]

Do they provide helicopter service to all injured hikers who could use one? No. Then NH has decided that is an unnecessary expense. Very simple. Don't need to live in NH to figure that one out. Nor do you need to be an expert.
No! But New Hampshire, like most (all?) states provide as much help and to as many as it can afford.

Governments have to set priorities. No state can afford to provide quick help, to anyone, no matter where they are injured. Would you believe? Not even Maine.

Weary

[TD55]

Any idea what they charge the person at fault in the auto accidents?

If they are negligent or reckless, fines and maybe jail time. Otherwise it's up to them and the insurance company and whatever they get sued for beyond what the insurance covers.

[Wilson]

If they are negligent or reckless, fines and maybe jail time. Otherwise it's up to them and the insurance company and whatever they get sued for beyond what the insurance covers.
I know that...whats the charge for the helicopter flight, $25,000? $30,000?

[TD55]

I know that...whats the charge for the helicopter flight, $25,000? $30,000?
Have no idea, nor do I know if it is covered by insurance the way a ambulance would be.

[Yahtzee]

No! But New Hampshire, like most (all?) states provide as much help and to as many as it can afford.

Governments have to set priorities. No state can afford to provide quick help, to anyone, no matter where they are injured. Would you believe? Not even Maine.

Weary

Weary, I wasn't suggesting that they do. Only pointing out that they don't find it a necessity because, as you said, governments have to set priorities.

Seriously Jack? Are you seriously suggesting that the doings of NH can't be analyzed by non-residents? You're metaphors are already lacking, it would be a real shame if your logic was failing, as well.

[Homer&Marje]

I know that...whats the charge for the helicopter flight, $25,000? $30,000?

Most helicopters, just the machine cost $1,000-$2,000 for every flight (Considering that they use most of the loaded fuel of course)

[Jack Tarlin]

Yahtzee:

Nowhere did I ever say that non NH residents shouldn't be allowed to take part in this discussion.

Of course they can.

What I WAS saying, tho, is that it seems to me that some of the more outspoken coments here, as well as some of the most vapid and profoundly ignorant ones, were made by people who don't live here or haven't visited in awhile.

Is there a connection between unfamiliarity with the realities of life in New Hampshire and the posting of foolish Internet posts on the subject?

Um, yes, there is, and one doesn't have to an expert on logic to see it.

But bar people from the discussion?

Certainly not. People have every right to say dumb things here, regardless of their Zip Code.

[Tin Man]

Most helicopters, just the machine cost $1,000-$2,000 for every flight (Considering that they use most of the loaded fuel of course)

The number posted in the AMC outhouses for your reading pleasure is $950/hour for a chopper to bring in fresh compost. After reading that as I sat and pondered the rising cost of poop in the 'wilderness', I decided cat holing would save the AMC some much needed funds. Maybe they could install more wheelchair accessible ramps like the one at Galehead. :rolleyes:

[Yahtzee]

Well, Jack, since the only comment I made about NH was that it found helicoptering out the injured an unnecessary expense, and that surely can't be considered a dumb comment, as it is the truth, I wrongly took your comment to be applicable to mine. So, since my statement was correct, I stand corrected.

Hopefully, on my hike in NH in Sept, I can learn even more about the state so my posts can become even more informed.

[whtmtnhiker]

Seems to be some confusion about rescue services. NH does not maintain a fleet of helicopters. As far as I know, the State Police have one, but it is not a rescue helicopter. NH Fish and Game can request the National Guard to provide a helicopter -- cost of flight crew and fuel for the specific mission is NH, cost of maintaining the chopper is Federal government. Currently, NH Guard helos and crews are deployed to Middle East, so helicopter evacs are limited now. DHART (Dartmouth Hitchcock Hospital) has a medical helicopter that can sometimes land in the mountains, but it has no winch capability, so it must land. NH Fish and Game is in charge of all rescues in the State of NH, and they coordinate with a large group of volunteer SAR teams. There is no such thing as a golden hour out in the wilderness (and wilderness begins 1 mile from the road when you're seriously injured). It's not the same thing as dialing 911 and having the local fire department/ambulance crew respond in 15 minutes. Enough for now.

[Tin Man]

well who is flying in stuff for the AMC? they certainly don't pack in all that crap like the old days.

[Jaybird62]

Have no idea, nor do I know if it is covered by insurance the way a ambulance would be.


Don't know about auto accidents, but I suffered a broken back, hand etc. in a motocross accident in MD about 4 years ago....I was flown in a helicopter to the nearest hospital, and my insurance covered all. ( Besides co-payments of course, which transportation was not part of)

[The Old Fhart]

Tin Man-"well who is flying in stuff for the AMC? they certainly don't pack in all that crap like the old days. "
Actually they fly in supplies and fly out crap.

This has nothing to do with SAR as the AMC is a private organization and contracts their helicopter services with a flying service. Here is an on-line account posted today of what they do.

7/28/2009 AMC Trail Blog-"Each year the AMC Trails Department, in the White Mountains, uses helicopters to air lift tools and building materials to remote locations throughout the Whites. We also fly hardwood bark chips to AMC backcountry campsite to be used in the composting of human waste. Flight time can be expensive, so we do what we can to meticulously plan the logistics and stage materials to optimize the use of helicopters.

AMC works with JBI Helicopter Services, based out of Pembroke, NH, for all of our air lifting needs. The helicopter can carry loads up to 800 lbs. – with a cable attached under the ship, the pilot can drop material in even the thickest woods.

Without a doubt, this is a very exciting aspect of our spring season. But it is not all for fun. Utilizing helicopters saves an enormous amount of time and staff resources. When constructing bog bridges, as we plan to do around Lonesome Lake and in the southern Mahoosucs, the lumber flown in safes us from using the native material on site.

We had two very full days of flying bark and building materials to a variety of locations this spring. In addition to the bark to backcountry campsites we flew: material for 200 bog bridges to Lonesome Lake, material for 30 bog bridges on Webster-Jackson, material for log waterbars and log steps on Mt. Eisenhower, and material for 30 bog bridges in the southern Mahoosucs.
The majority of bog bridges that will be constructed this field season will be installed by the AMC Camp Dodge Teen Volunteer Trail Crews."

[Jack Tarlin]

Yahtzee:

I don't think it's fair to say that the state of New Hampshire views the providing of rescue efforts to be an "unnecessary expense".

What they are saying is that they resent having to reserve public funds and expenses for rescues that they don't think should have ever become necessary.

There's a big difference here, and I hope you can see it.

[Yahtzee]

Yahtzee:

I don't think it's fair to say that the state of New Hampshire views the providing of rescue efforts to be an "unnecessary expense".

What they are saying is that they resent having to reserve public funds and expenses for rescues that they don't think should have ever become necessary.

There's a big difference here, and I hope you can see it.

Wow, good timing on my part.

Jack, government monies aren't appropriated according to whether the citizens "resent" the appropriation, they are doled out by necessity. Simply look at the budgeting situations being made in states during this down economy. They are cutting many programs, police forces, and grants that have been deemed less necessary than those that have not been cut. I can think of a many services provided by governments that citizens might resent. For example, many people resent welfare, the constant police presence required in unruly neighborhoods, medical services provided to drug addicts paid for on the government dime. Yet, all of these things are paid for (to varying degrees) because those governments have decided they are necessary for the functioning of civil society. Whether that proposition is true is disputable, but what is not disputable is that the choice has been made. The citizens of NH may resent those who enter NH wilds unprepared, but that is not the reason they have not supplied helicopters to aid them in their rescue.

There is a difference in the our reasoning. Mine is based on logic, experience and knowledge of government systems and yours is based on emotion.

[Jack Tarlin]

Yahtzee:

I'm still not convinced that occasionally charging people for their own stupidity or expecting them be responsible for their own recklessness is in any way unreasonable; I always thought that folks should take responsibility for problems that were of their own devising; you, however, seem to think that when a State makes this expectation of people, i.e. when it makes it clear that folks may be held responsible for their own failings, they have decided to make their State somehow less "functional".

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one.

[Yahtzee]

I think we agree on the policy but differ on the reasoning behind it. I applaud NH for leaving people responsible for their own recklessness. That's the only way people learn.

[The Old Fhart]

Yahtzee-"I applaud NH for leaving people responsible for their own recklessness."
Just to clarify-as of last year the new regulations have changed the wording from ‘recklessly’ to ‘negligent’ and left the final decision up to authorities on who gets fined.