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ridgewalker777
07-13-2004, 12:06
Stopped by Stoney Brook Shelter and there was a large camp group that I doubt had gotten a permit--a few hikers had stopped there and moved on when they saw the group of over ten laying claim to the shelter. If anyone knows what the rules are regarding shelter use, please advise...

Lone Wolf
07-13-2004, 12:08
First come, first served. A hiker should never count on shelter space. Always carry a tent, tarp, bivy, hammock, etc.

magic_game03
07-13-2004, 13:03
"Groups spending one or more nights on the Trail should not exceed 10 members at any one overnight-use area, and day-use groups should not exceed 25 members at any one location, unless clubs designate otherwise in their local-management plans"

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/protect/policies/3Bspecial.html


that is their over all policy. but many trail groups post "group size max:10, at shelter max:5" at trail heads and in shelters. your local trail group will have a set limit that may vary from area to area, so you should contact them.

ridgewalker777
07-15-2004, 12:28
The bothersome fact was that this group had done this several nights at different shelters. Permits are required for large groups in some areas. How many A/T hikers would not prefer to have a shelter option in heavy rain?

TakeABreak
08-21-2004, 00:25
I agree these large groups are not only obnoxious but shelter hop. On a few of the A.T. maps it says on the bottom groups of 5 or more shall camp. While I was hiking I ran into this a few times, 4 times it was boy scouts, once was girl scouts and once was headed by an AMC ******* who was a co-ordinated group experience for some college students.

She told she heading up the group and trying to give wilderness experience while teaching them proper trail use and ediquette. When I told her what she was doing was wrong and her group of 20 camp somewhere and to stay the hell away from the shelters, she just said well if thru hiker wants in we will make room.

Who wants to stay the night around 20 people who only walked 6 miles that and have no intention of going to sleep before 3 am.

No hikers do not have the right to expect room, but some common curtousy and common sense would be nice.

MOWGLI
08-21-2004, 07:57
At Pecks Corner shelter this past Saturday, a large group from Greenville University (IL) had essentially taken over the shelter. There stuff was hanging everywhere and no space was left uncluttered. Thet weren't bad or inconsiderate kids. I just don't think they thought through their actions. They quickly cleared off the picnic tables so we could have lunch and move on. Some kind words said in the right manner can go a long way with some folks. FYI Greenville sends their student leaders to the Smokies every year for an outdoor experience. There were numerous groups of students scattered throughout the park.

SGT Rock
08-21-2004, 10:18
First come, first served. A hiker should never count on shelter space. Always carry a tent, tarp, bivy, hammock, etc.

Exactly. Shelter hogs only annoy you if you allow them to.

weary
08-21-2004, 11:12
Exactly. Shelter hogs only annoy you if you allow them to.

When I walked the trail in Maine in 1991 with a 9-year-old, we chased commercial camp groups most of the 30 days. The camps seemed to have no facilities of their own. They just gathered kids off a bus and took them on the trail.

Typically, the kids would arrive at a shelter about noon or a little after and spend the rest of the day playing cards or sleeping in the shelters. I became increasingly annoyed. Sarge, what would be your strategy for not becoming annoyed? My strategy is to avoid the trail during the peak summer camp season. September is a beautiful time on the trail in Maine.

Weary

Weary

Kerosene
08-21-2004, 13:58
I ran into a fraternity pledge class at the Pickle Branch Shelter south of Catawba last October. They were shoe-horned into the shelter when several of us arrived, but did offer to make some room (as if that were physically possible). I considered staying (at least they weren't allowed to talk!), but they obviously didn't want me there. I ended up tarping up the hill. Fortunately I had my earplugs so I only heard the pledgemaster yelling at them to collect more, and more, and more wood for the bonfire when I took them out a few times in the early morning hours.

Jack Tarlin
08-21-2004, 14:51
There will always be folks who are either unaware, or who simply don't care about shelter "etiquette." I.e., there will always be folks who travel in large groups, who are noisy, who take up too much space, who arrive late, leave early, are generally pains in the ass.

There's a simple remedy for this. Don't stay in shelters, or don't even PLAN on staying in them unless you absolutely have to. However, if you choose to do so, be aware that in deciding to spend the night in communal "shared" space, you are inevitably going to "share" with people who might not be ideal companions. Don't be surprised, and don't complain, if they don't live up to your standards or expectations, and don't be surprised if their behavior doesn't conform to your perception of proper "shelter etiquette."

Keep in mind:

*It's always first-come, first served.
*It's not cool to "hold" spots for people who may or may not be arriving later.
*Thru-hikers aren't inherently entitled to shelter space; shelters neither
discrimainate nor do they reward. It's first-come, first served. A group
of fat weekenders is just as entitled to be there as you are.
*If you're being Joe Cool Ultralight, and have decided to dispense with tent,
tarp, or bivy, this does NOT automatically entitle you to shelter space, so
don't expect others to vacate their space for you. If you make a voluntary
decision not to carry equipment that other folks think is vital gear, well
that's YOUR choice. Live with it. If there's room in the shelter, folks will
most likely accomodate you. Otherwise suck it up and get wet. Next time,
bring a tent and don't blame other folks for YOUR mistakes.
*If you snore, arrive late, leave super early in the morning, make a lot of
noise, get up frequently in the night, etc., you should probably be
considerate to others and stay in a tent. Likewise, if this sorta behavior
bothers you, then YOU should stay in a tent.
*In short, people aren't perfect. If you decide to stay in a group facility,
then be aware that not everyone might conform to your standards of
behavior; be aware also, that not everyone is aware of what constitutes
appropriate shelter behavior. If it's a group that's making the problem,
consider tactfully and privately discussing the matter with the group's
leaders. But always, the simplest way to avoid the myriad problems
associated with overnighting in a shelter is simply to overnight somewhere
else.

SGT Rock
08-21-2004, 15:24
When I walked the trail in Maine in 1991 with a 9-year-old, we chased commercial camp groups most of the 30 days. The camps seemed to have no facilities of their own. They just gathered kids off a bus and took them on the trail.

Typically, the kids would arrive at a shelter about noon or a little after and spend the rest of the day playing cards or sleeping in the shelters. I became increasingly annoyed. Sarge, what would be your strategy for not becoming annoyed? My strategy is to avoid the trail during the peak summer camp season. September is a beautiful time on the trail in Maine.

Weary

Weary

I would probably avoid the shelters to begin with. But that is just me ;)

A-Train
08-21-2004, 16:20
Every yr there are thru-hikers who bitch and moan about a group of people who walked 1 mile from the parking lot and grabbed the last spots in the shelter on the rainy night when they hiked 28 miles to get there and are sour cuz they have to set up their emergency shelter that they don't really know how to operate. I even read one a couple weeks ago in the log at Fingerboard Shelter. I'm sure I complained myself at least once. Thru-hikers start to get the idea that they are better than life itself because they are doing something so cool and unique and that they need special treatment. It not that thru hikers are bad people, just that they lose sight of everyday "normal" life; that where normal working people enjoy a short jaunt in the woods on their free time and that everyone is entitled to backcountry facilities. Sure it sucks being shut out in bad weather when your exhausted, but hey, no one made you walk 28 miles.

With that being said, I think groups of 4 or more should seriously consider sleeping in tents when traveling for more than a night or two. Considering most shelters hold 6, its a bit inconsiderate for the same one group to keep filling up almost the entire occupancy of a shelter, because then you're simply not giving others an opportunity to share. I witenssed a few groups of thru-hikers, 6 or more, traveling together and getting a bad wrap because there was never room for a single other hiker.

Alligator
08-21-2004, 21:08
First some preliminaries. I don't stay in shelters unless I'm the only one there, so I am always prepared with personal shelter. I either camp at a tent spot or continue on if no space is available. I prefer an out of the way place where I can stay up late without disturbing other hikers and do anything of the following : read, have a fire, drink whiskey or tequila, smoke cigarettes, kabitz, or play cards. I generally have a good idea what the local hiker traffic will be like, depending on the time of year. And, I am always ready for the curveball of some group being at the shelter. I carry enough water capacity to camel up and head out.

But, I do get irritated by groups larger then 12. I'm willing to stretch the ten so that ten kids and two adults can travel together. Limiting group size is part of ethical use of the trail. I feel that exceeding the 10 (12) person limit is just as egregious as littering or carving up trees. I am especially perturbed when the group is made up of young people. Group leaders should be entirely aware of the ten person limit. To break the limit with young hikers perpetuates a problem and teaches bad habits.

What to do about it? Well first, suck it up, save the negativity, and move on. You will not change anyone's behavior by coming across as an Ahole. Besides, even 15 girl scouts can kick the bejesus out of a lone hiker. The group is not going to move either and who wants to stay there anyway? I see two options. One, politely talk to the group leaders about LNT. If you are armed with some facts about group impacts, and are polite, "Hey maybe you were unware but large groups impact the area by ....blah blah blah." Or two, find out the name of the group. All groups have hierarchies. Write a couple of letters/make a couple of phone calls to the higher-ups. Explain about group size limits and hopefully change some behaviors.

Or you could vandalize their bus at the trailhead :banana . Just kidding :jump .

Peaks
08-23-2004, 10:19
Like other actions we all see, they are largely the result of poor training, or lack of knowledge.

Most regulations clearly urge groups to bring tents rather than monopolize shelters. Further, Leave No Trace suggests keeping groups size to around 10 or so. And, most planning books for backpacking and long distance hiking urges you to bring along shelter (tent, tarp, hammock) so you are not dependent on shelters.

Sometimes it doesn't take an over crowded shelter to make you go into your tent. All it takes is one individual who snores, or stays up late, or is other wise inconsiderate to drive you out of a shelter.

When you come across someone who is not observing the Leave no trace principals, then we should make the attempt to educate them as best we can. Other easier said than done.

kentucky
08-23-2004, 10:43
They have always said first come first serve,but I was told by all the ridgerunners that thrue hikers and distance hikers have first dibs and commonsense would tell you thats the way it should be! I have been at many shelters and generally most groups will give the shelters up but naturally some people think they own it all especially with more numbers although they usually are weekend hikers or out for a week.:D kentucky

Lone Wolf
08-23-2004, 10:54
BS. The ridgerunners who told you that are idiots. Thru-hikers have NO dibs on shelter space.

SGT Rock
08-23-2004, 10:56
Actually common sense tells me to bring some shelter and first come first serve. There is no "common sense" way to prove thru-hiker credentials. to try and give long distance hikers and thru-hikers first dibs would be like trying to say American Indians get first dibs in shelters: how am I to prove my ancestry at a shelter? And how is a guy walking into a shelter when I am already there going to convince me he has more of a right than I do.

I have also never heard a ridgerunner say this.

smokymtnsteve
08-23-2004, 11:04
They have always said first come first serve,but I was told by all the ridgerunners that thrue hikers and distance hikers have first dibs and commonsense would tell you thats the way it should be! I have been at many shelters and generally most groups will give the shelters up but naturally some people think they own it all especially with more numbers although they usually are weekend hikers or out for a week.:D kentucky


actually inside the smokies (by the "rules") the section hikers with reservation and permits have "first dibs" over thru hikers... thru hikers are actually the minority on the trail ....and this thru-hiker status means NOTHING when it comes to shelter space...as a matter of fact (common sense) would suggest that a thru hiker\long distance hiker should be more prepared than a casual weekender and not need the shelter space.

kentucky
08-23-2004, 11:16
well in all do respect to people who have hiked more than myself I say your right,I generally pass on when i see a big group or set up my tent.;)

The_Professor
06-06-2012, 16:13
I have had the experience of wanting to tent near a shelter, but finding all the good tent sites taken by a large group.

Smooth & Wasabi
06-06-2012, 23:37
I don't think anyone has any rights to expections at a shelter except a spot if there is room. That being said as a trip leader I always planned trips around camping spots with plenty of tent room and preferably during the week to avoid crowds. I would never allow a participant from a group I was leading to sleep in a shelter unless there were some type of emergency. We would use the communal fire and ammenities and socialize but always retire to tents and a dining tarp. To plan a group trip any other way is inconsiderate though not against any rules.

Don H
06-07-2012, 08:19
I ran into maybe a dozen or more college groups hiking the AT. Most were about 20 or more people. Like any large group they can take over a campsite or shelter. I usually just Yogi some food from them and move on. There's plenty of places to camp along the trail.

xokie
06-07-2012, 08:47
I've run into Boy Scouts twice this year. Once at the Rock Spring Hut in SNP and once at the Hemlocks lean-to in MA. In both cases the boys camped in clusters leaving the shelters and most of the camping area open to other hikers.

Tom Murphy
06-07-2012, 09:22
I agree these large groups are not only obnoxious but shelter hop.

Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Church Groups, College Orientation Groups are all known to do this.

But the worst offenders are the AT thru hikers; imagine pulling into Imp Shelter on the Carter-Moriah Range and finding it overrun with thru hikers. :rolleyes:

Tom Murphy
06-07-2012, 09:30
They have always said first come first serve,but I was told by all the ridgerunners that thrue hikers and distance hikers have first dibs and common sense would tell you thats the way it should be!

No, common sense would tell you that thru hikers do NOT have first dibs.

kayak karl
06-07-2012, 09:41
even if the group is around the shelter i move on. crowds are the main reason i hike off season :)

Nutbrown
06-07-2012, 09:50
can we just be happy more younguns are being introduced to the 'wilderness'? See a group, don't like it? Move on and quit bitchin.

Gray Blazer
06-07-2012, 09:58
The AT (and while we're at it, the World) was not created solely for thrubees.

Sarcasm the elf
06-07-2012, 10:16
can we just be happy more younguns are being introduced to the 'wilderness'? See a group, don't like it? Move on and quit bitchin.+1 Any time I start to get annoyed by the presence of youth groups on the trail, I just remind myself that I used to be one of those kids in the youth group and that its because of groups like those that I learned to love the outdoors. FWIW I've overnighted next to a lot of scout/summer camp/college groups, i often see a lot of kids being kids and making newbie mistakes, but have never met a group that was badly behaved.

FlyPaper
06-07-2012, 11:23
As someone who plans hikes for a group that has varied from 3 to 12, I can tell you it is very hard to plan a trip without using the shelters.
(For the record, the one time that 12 of us deployed for our hike, we split the group into two groups of 6 and hiked in opposite directions).
I have a lose association of friends that hike, and when planning a hike we put the word out and don't usually know for sure until a few
days beforehand who is actually going to make it.

Ideally, I would prefer to hike with a group of 4 or 5. But I'll say straight up, if you say it is not courteous to show up at a shelter with 7 or 8
people, I'd much rather be uncourteous in that way than to look at a group of 8 friends and pick two of them to tell they can't come because
of group size. Some will think that I should put the word out and say that we are only taking X hikers and only allow the first X that commit
to join the hike. The problem with that is that grown men with families and responsibilities change plans all the time. There have been some hikes
that 2 weeks before looked like there will be 11 people, but by the hike date have dwindled down to 4. If you set the group max at 8, you might exclude several people that won't to hike, and then when all is said and done you only have 2 people that actually hike. It's one thing to fly "stand-by". No one is going to hike "stand-by".

Some might suggest we camp along the trail away from shelters. Logistically it is easy to find a camp spot for 2 people, but nearly impossible to plan ahead for a camp spot for 8 people. Even the camp sites labeled on the trail maps typically aren't clear on how many can actually camp there. Only the shelters are largely reliable in having enough places for tents, and even that is not guaranteed. We could just hike until we find a camp spot. But it is not unusual to hike a couple of miles without seeing a good tent spot adequate for 2 people. If you're looking for a tent spot for 8 people, you may have to hike 6 or 7 miles further than you planned. For someone that doesn't hike often, targeting a hike for 10 miles, but expecting everyone to be ready to go 17 miles if necessary for camping is not doable. When you're hiking with 6 or more hikers that don't have trail legs, you pretty much have to know ahead of time where you're sleeping.

Finally, if we do reach a 6 person shelter with 7 or 8 people, why would someone in a group of 2 have priority for the shelter over people in our group? I see no reason that first come first served would not apply even if one group fills the shelter. Although I totally agree that groups more than 10 really need to split up, unless they've done excellent recon and know that the shelters or campsites they're stopping at have a much larger capacity than their group contains.

Slo-go'en
06-07-2012, 11:58
Finally, if we do reach a 6 person shelter with 7 or 8 people, why would someone in a group of 2 have priority for the shelter over people in our group? I see no reason that first come first served would not apply even if one group fills the shelter. Although I totally agree that groups more than 10 really need to split up, unless they've done excellent recon and know that the shelters or campsites they're stopping at have a much larger capacity than their group contains.

So, you show up to a 6 person shelter with 7 or 8 people and there are already 3 or 4 set up there. What do you do now? Oh and it's raining. Or, you show up with your group and there is already not one, but two camp groups set up in and around the shelter. I've seen it happen.

Groups should NEVER exceed 10, including leaders and even that number is often too big, especially during prime hiking season in popular areas. Should you limit the sign up for your hikes to 9 others max? Yes. If only 3 show up, that's even better.

UltraRunner
06-07-2012, 11:58
Groups have just as much right to the shelters as an individual. Best option is to avoid the shelters. I often stopped at them for a snack/rest breaks during my thru but I never once slept in one or camped near them.

FlyPaper
06-07-2012, 12:49
So, you show up to a 6 person shelter with 7 or 8 people and there are already 3 or 4 set up there. What do you do now? Oh and it's raining. Or, you show up with your group and there is already not one, but two camp groups set up in and around the shelter. I've seen it happen.

As for everyone, first come first served and we'll be as prepared as anyone else to deal with a full shelter and/or rain. As with everything, it's a matter of statistics. Even if there are just two of us, we still have a chance of coming to a crowded shelter. I don't see how this relates to the group size discussion other than it makes the problem a little more likely to happen.



Groups should NEVER exceed 10, including leaders and even that number is often too big, especially during prime hiking season in popular areas. Should you limit the sign up for your hikes to 9 others max? Yes. If only 3 show up, that's even better.

Not if some of my best friends who's been on most previous doesn't make the cut, then makes other plans before the hike date. Then he misses a hike where we had plenty of space. I can't imagine living in a world where one would be happier to have excluded good friends who were eager to hike and available to hike (and the group was small enough to accommodate). While 3-5 is an ideal group size, there are always trade offs and often it's better to take a few more hikers. Plus, don't forget I said the one time we had 12 hikers we split into two groups of 6. I'd rather deal with slight larger groups (e.g. 7 or 8) or splitting groups of 12 than to pick out a close friend and tell him he can't hike with us because we're full.

Furthermore, we do try to avoid the thru-hiker population bulge as it moves up the trail.

ocourse
06-07-2012, 18:45
can we just be happy more younguns are being introduced to the 'wilderness'? See a group, don't like it? Move on and quit bitchin.
Right! Plus, shelters are only good for topping off your water supply and to have lunch out of the rain.

canoe
06-07-2012, 19:05
There will always be folks who are either unaware, or who simply don't care about shelter "etiquette." I.e., there will always be folks who travel in large groups, who are noisy, who take up too much space, who arrive late, leave early, are generally pains in the ass.

There's a simple remedy for this. Don't stay in shelters, or don't even PLAN on staying in them unless you absolutely have to. However, if you choose to do so, be aware that in deciding to spend the night in communal "shared" space, you are inevitably going to "share" with people who might not be ideal companions. Don't be surprised, and don't complain, if they don't live up to your standards or expectations, and don't be surprised if their behavior doesn't conform to your perception of proper "shelter etiquette."

Keep in mind:

*It's always first-come, first served.
*It's not cool to "hold" spots for people who may or may not be arriving later.
*Thru-hikers aren't inherently entitled to shelter space; shelters neither
discrimainate nor do they reward. It's first-come, first served. A group
of fat weekenders is just as entitled to be there as you are.
*If you're being Joe Cool Ultralight, and have decided to dispense with tent,
tarp, or bivy, this does NOT automatically entitle you to shelter space, so
don't expect others to vacate their space for you. If you make a voluntary
decision not to carry equipment that other folks think is vital gear, well
that's YOUR choice. Live with it. If there's room in the shelter, folks will
most likely accomodate you. Otherwise suck it up and get wet. Next time,
bring a tent and don't blame other folks for YOUR mistakes.
*If you snore, arrive late, leave super early in the morning, make a lot of
noise, get up frequently in the night, etc., you should probably be
considerate to others and stay in a tent. Likewise, if this sorta behavior
bothers you, then YOU should stay in a tent.
*In short, people aren't perfect. If you decide to stay in a group facility,
then be aware that not everyone might conform to your standards of
behavior; be aware also, that not everyone is aware of what constitutes
appropriate shelter behavior. If it's a group that's making the problem,
consider tactfully and privately discussing the matter with the group's
leaders. But always, the simplest way to avoid the myriad problems
associated with overnighting in a shelter is simply to overnight somewhere
else.


Well said.... no one is intitled

canoe
06-07-2012, 19:17
they have always said first come first serve,but i was told by all the ridgerunners that thrue hikers and distance hikers have first dibs and commonsense would tell you thats the way it should be! I have been at many shelters and generally most groups will give the shelters up but naturally some people think they own it all especially with more numbers although they usually are weekend hikers or out for a week.:d kentucky
...lol....

Papa D
06-07-2012, 20:57
First some preliminaries. I don't stay in shelters unless I'm the only one there, so I am always prepared with personal shelter. I either camp at a tent spot or continue on if no space is available. I prefer an out of the way place where I can stay up late without disturbing other hikers and do anything of the following : read, have a fire, drink whiskey or tequila, smoke cigarettes, kabitz, or play cards. I generally have a good idea what the local hiker traffic will be like, depending on the time of year. And, I am always ready for the curveball of some group being at the shelter. I carry enough water capacity to camel up and head out.

But, I do get irritated by groups larger then 12. I'm willing to stretch the ten so that ten kids and two adults can travel together. Limiting group size is part of ethical use of the trail. I feel that exceeding the 10 (12) person limit is just as egregious as littering or carving up trees. I am especially perturbed when the group is made up of young people. Group leaders should be entirely aware of the ten person limit. To break the limit with young hikers perpetuates a problem and teaches bad habits.

What to do about it? Well first, suck it up, save the negativity, and move on. You will not change anyone's behavior by coming across as an Ahole. Besides, even 15 girl scouts can kick the bejesus out of a lone hiker. The group is not going to move either and who wants to stay there anyway? I see two options. One, politely talk to the group leaders about LNT. If you are armed with some facts about group impacts, and are polite, "Hey maybe you were unware but large groups impact the area by ....blah blah blah." Or two, find out the name of the group. All groups have hierarchies. Write a couple of letters/make a couple of phone calls to the higher-ups. Explain about group size limits and hopefully change some behaviors.

Or you could vandalize their bus at the trailhead :banana . Just kidding :jump .

this pretty much sums up everything I was going to say - - the problem that if you are the guilty party, you usually feel like you are doing nothing wrong - - I keep my groups to 6 or less and we all carry solo shelters - - they know that if there is shelter space, one or two might be able to crash in there but there is no guarantee - - personally, I vastly prefer my tent - - even in the rain - - I know that I am going to be dry and comfortable and not get stepped on and (hey Alligator, what is kabitzing? - is that like talking all damn night long?) so forth.

Papa D
06-07-2012, 21:02
I do sometimes do the shelter thing solo in the winter time - - I spent some snowy nights in some shelters this year as a matter of fact - no cigarette smokers, no kibitzers, no kids, no old farts farting, no snoring, just me at -5 degrees with a couple of shots of whiskey and occasionally my I-pod - - all the softies were at home in their beds fast asleep.

coach lou
06-07-2012, 21:33
I do sometimes do the shelter thing solo in the winter time - - I spent some snowy nights in some shelters this year as a matter of fact - no cigarette smokers, no kibitzers, no kids, no old farts farting, no snoring, just me at -5 degrees with a couple of shots of whiskey and occasionally my I-pod - - all the softies were at home in their beds fast asleep.

i was out once a month this winter, excuse me, sorta winter. twice in january. sheltered most of the time 'cause they were empty except the one time the Mrs. came. New Years up to Riga shelter, a couple and their dog had the same idea. Tracker only tried to get in my bag once!

hikerboy57
06-07-2012, 21:45
In my tent i am ruler and king.all who enter must obey.
I try not to sleep in sheltets.i prefer to choose my bedmates.

Wise Old Owl
06-07-2012, 21:48
First some preliminaries. I don't stay in shelters unless I'm the only one there, so I am always prepared with personal shelter. I either camp at a tent spot or continue on if no space is available. I prefer an out of the way place where I can stay up late without disturbing other hikers and do anything of the following : read, have a fire, drink whiskey or tequila, smoke cigarettes, kabitz, or play cards. I generally have a good idea what the local hiker traffic will be like, depending on the time of year. And, I am always ready for the curveball of some group being at the shelter. I carry enough water capacity to camel up and head out.

But, I do get irritated by groups larger then 12. I'm willing to stretch the ten so that ten kids and two adults can travel together. Limiting group size is part of ethical use of the trail. I feel that exceeding the 10 (12) person limit is just as egregious as littering or carving up trees. I am especially perturbed when the group is made up of young people. Group leaders should be entirely aware of the ten person limit. To break the limit with young hikers perpetuates a problem and teaches bad habits.

What to do about it? Well first, suck it up, save the negativity, and move on. You will not change anyone's behavior by coming across as an Ahole. Besides, even 15 girl scouts can kick the bejesus out of a lone hiker. The group is not going to move either and who wants to stay there anyway? I see two options. One, politely talk to the group leaders about LNT. If you are armed with some facts about group impacts, and are polite, "Hey maybe you were unware but large groups impact the area by ....blah blah blah." Or two, find out the name of the group. All groups have hierarchies. Write a couple of letters/make a couple of phone calls to the higher-ups. Explain about group size limits and hopefully change some behaviors.

Or you could vandalize their bus at the trailhead :banana . Just kidding :jump .

And you thought we don't agree on anything... You da Man!:banana

Wise Old Owl
06-07-2012, 21:52
No, common sense would tell you that thru hikers do NOT have first dibs.

Common sense would kick in and you would make room for Jennifer Davis...

Gray Blazer
06-08-2012, 08:43
In my tent i am ruler and king.all who enter must obey.
I try not to sleep in sheltets.i prefer to choose my bedmates.

Your trail name should be Yertle.

"I'm ruler, I am, of all that I see,
But, I don't see enough. That's the trouble with me."

Yertle the Turtle from Dr. Seuss

Gray Blazer
06-08-2012, 08:44
Common sense would kick in and you would make room for Jennifer Davis...

You make a good point, sir.

Rain Man
06-08-2012, 09:35
I've run into Boy Scouts twice this year. Once at the Rock Spring Hut in SNP and once at the Hemlocks lean-to in MA. In both cases the boys camped in clusters leaving the shelters and most of the camping area open to other hikers.

I've run into Boy Scouts just like that. Sadly, I've run into Boy Scouts just the opposite. I started a section hike with a young boy in my care, at Deep Gap in NC, expecting to stay at Standing Indian Shelter. We passed TWO (I think it was) signs at Deep Gap and on the trail saying "Limit Groups to 10." When we arrived at dusk with a drizzly rain just starting, we found the shelter AND all the camp spots surrounding it taken by a few dozen Boy Scouts who were not about to do the right thing and make room.

Again, when I hiked the GSMNP with my young nephew, we arrived at a shelter with a capacity of 12. We had reservations for 4 and 4 spots are reserved for thru-hikers (the month we were there). There was a group of 16 Boy Scouts and leaders there, who CLAIMED (they lied) that they had reservations. That night, in a storm, there were 27 people in that shelter. I met a Ridge Runner the next day and asked him for clarification on the reservation system. He told me the Boy Scout leaders simply lied to me and that they are known to do it all the time in the Smokies.

So, depending on the character of the Boy Scout leaders, you can run into great experiences or some that make you question the Boy Scout organization.

Rain Man

.

bfayer
06-08-2012, 10:44
[QUOTE=Rain Man;129723, ...who CLAIMED (they lied) that they had reservations. That night, in a storm, there were 27 people in that shelter. I met a Ridge Runner the next day and asked him for clarification on the reservation system. He told me the Boy Scout leaders simply lied to me and that they are known to do it all the time in the Smokies.

So, depending on the character of the Boy Scout leaders, you can run into great experiences or some that make you question the Boy Scout organization.

Rain Man

.[/QUOTE]

As a scout leader I can't disagree with your last statement, however you seem very quick to believe the ridgerunner over the scout leader.

The scout leader that leads the trip is not always the one that handles the logistics. Scout leaders may not all be the best leaders or the best outdoor people, but I would trust the word of a scout leader over 99% of the people I meet on the trail including ridgerunners.


Wasn't it aridgerunmer that






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msupple
06-08-2012, 11:10
I have never slept in a shelter. If I wanted to sleep in a shelter I'd I'd stay home or go to a Hotel. One of the main reasons I backpack is to get away from the hubbub of everyday life and seek a bit of solitude. I can't imagine cramming myself into a tiny little room with a bunch of people I probably don't even know, when I can string up my hammock in the woods. If I was a shelter rat...I would suck it up and abide by the first come first served rule.

Cat in the Hat