View Full Version : Cougar near Hogpen!
Frick Frack
08-03-2009, 08:44
My wife and I were on a road bike ride in the gaps (Neel's, Wolfpen, Woodys) yesterday and I had to cut it short and head back to work. My wife and a few others went on to Craig's Gap off 180 and one of the guys had a punture on Craig's Gap Road. As they were replacing the tube they heard a loud cougar cry and looked up across the road and not but 10ft off the road was a cougar looking at them. It stood up against the tree and growled again before walking off. They couldn't believe it! She said it was as big as me maybe bigger! She said the sound that it made was amazing (loud and deep). That would be the approximate area of Poplar Stomp Gap, Low Gap, Hog Pen Gap, Tesnatee Gap on the AT. Anyone else seen such a cat in that area around the AT? I'm so mad I missed it!
Bulldawg
08-03-2009, 09:00
My wife and I were on a road bike ride in the gaps (Neel's, Wolfpen, Woodys) yesterday and I had to cut it short and head back to work. My wife and a few others went on to Craig's Gap off 180 and one of the guys had a punture on Craig's Gap Road. As they were replacing the tube they heard a loud cougar cry and looked up across the road and not but 10ft off the road was a cougar looking at them. It stood up against the tree and growled again before walking off. They couldn't believe it! She said it was as big as me maybe bigger! She said the sound that it made was amazing (loud and deep). That would be the approximate area of Poplar Stomp Gap, Low Gap, Hog Pen Gap, Tesnatee Gap on the AT. Anyone else seen such a cat in that area around the AT? I'm so mad I missed it!
I've been hearing about a cougar in that area for about 2 years now.
max patch
08-03-2009, 09:03
I've been hearing about a cougar in that area for about 2 years now.
Shes about 45 years old and looks a little rough around the edges.
shes About 45 Years Old And Looks A Little Rough Around The Edges.lmao!!!!!!!!!!
bigmac_in
08-03-2009, 09:15
I'll believe it when I see pictures . . .
Frick Frack
08-03-2009, 09:19
Shes about 45 years old and looks a little rough around the edges.
lmao!!!!!!!!!!
I'm too old to understand what the heck you all are talking about.
Sucks you missed the cougar, that would be an amazing sight to see.
If you really don't know, a "cougar" is a term for a middle-aged woman who prowls for much younger men.
Frick Frack
08-03-2009, 09:46
Sucks you missed the cougar, that would be an amazing sight to see.
If you really don't know, a "cougar" is a term for a middle-aged woman who prowls for much younger men.
Yeah, as usual I had the camera and was not there. My wife has seen two of them now & I have only heard them....one of the few native animal's I have yet to see. My aunt & uncle also saw one up in the woods behind a cabin my family used to have that bordered the GSMNP.
Those guys must have smoked their breakfast.....
They caught a 250 lb one in mid state SC about a year or two ago. Said it was eating livestock from the surronding farms. I don't doubt there are some big cats up there. Everybody who has a cat can tell you that they can hide inside a small house and not be found regardless of how long you look for them so to go unseen in a large outdoor area is not much to believe.
Could be a good thing? :-?:-?:-?
Dances with Mice
08-03-2009, 16:12
What a cool sighting.
Refresh my memory, it's been a while since I moseyed down that road: Isn't Craig's Gap Rd right before the intersection of the Richard B and GA-180? Real close to the village of Choestoe? It's pretty much right at the edge of the National Forest, and Craigs Gap travels past a lot of farms, doesn't it?
What I'm trying to say is, isn't that area more farmland than wilderness?
bigmac_in
08-03-2009, 17:18
They caught a 250 lb one in mid state SC about a year or two ago. Said it was eating livestock from the surronding farms. I don't doubt there are some big cats up there. Everybody who has a cat can tell you that they can hide inside a small house and not be found regardless of how long you look for them so to go unseen in a large outdoor area is not much to believe.
I'd like to see pictures of that one too.
Frick Frack
08-03-2009, 18:35
What a cool sighting.
Refresh my memory, it's been a while since I moseyed down that road: Isn't Craig's Gap Rd right before the intersection of the Richard B and GA-180? Real close to the village of Choestoe? It's pretty much right at the edge of the National Forest, and Craigs Gap travels past a lot of farms, doesn't it?
What I'm trying to say is, isn't that area more farmland than wilderness?
They saw the cougar right at the intersection of Richard B (348) and Craig's Gap Road (they were actually at the stop sign). They were right infront of someone's house. That particular area is indeed farmland, or rural, at the base of all the surrounding wilderness......not exactally where i would ever dream of a cougar encounter....esp one that was not bothered by 3 wet, muddy road bikers. When my wife & I went through the VA highlands on our SOBO last year another hiker had spotted a cougar & I can see one hanging out there in the wilderness, perched on rocks, hidden from everthing & everyone but not right in someones front yard by a tree watching roadies change a tire. Crazy!
John Klein
08-03-2009, 19:08
...3 wet, muddy road bikers...right in someones front yard by a tree watching roadies change a tire...
Are you kidding? That kind of scenery is right up a real cougar's alley! Did the cougar have a car tag from Fulton or Forsyth county? Was it a Southern cougar or a Northeast transplant? Was it one of "The Real Housewives of Atlanta"?
Saturday Night Live has a recurring skit about cougars so Tivo it if you're still not sure what a cougar is. Cameron Diaz plays one of them...
Saturday Night Live has a recurring skit about cougars so Tivo it if you're still not sure what a cougar is. Cameron Diaz plays one of them...
Cameron Diaz, that's the kind of cougar I'd like to see on the trail :banana
John Klein
08-03-2009, 19:34
Cameron Diaz, that's the kind of cougar I'd like to see on the trail :bananaShe might even buy you a Playstation...
I've never seen a cougar, but I've seen Cameron Diaz. That's not her. Looks more like Demi Moore, but not quite.
Who is she?
Cool AT Breeze
08-03-2009, 20:37
Someone in that area got a picture of a panther with a game camera this spring.
dreamsoftrails
08-03-2009, 21:19
Shes about 45 years old and looks a little rough around the edges.
beat me to it!
Bulldawg
08-03-2009, 21:23
Someone in that area got a picture of a panther with a game camera this spring.
Like I said, I've now heard of four sightings in this general area in the last 24 months. I've heard, NOT SEEN MYSELF, only HEARD, of sightings in four places in this general area.
1. North of Woody Gap on the AT, coming down Big Cedar--I heard of this one in August 2007.
2. Between Hogpen and Low Gap on the AT--I heard of this sighting in August 2008.
3. I had a local I met on the trail (he was local and running hogs with dogs, I met him between Low Gap and Chattahoochee Gap this past spring) tell me he had seen a cougar while hunting hogs in the winter of 2008.
4. Now this sighting.
All four of these are probably a 20-25 mile radius by the crow flies. Quite possibly the same cougar, who knows. But like someone else said; anyone with a cat can tell you that if a cat doesn't want to be found, you won't find it. Give a big cat several thousand acres to hide in, who knows how long a few could stay hidden.
MintakaCat
08-03-2009, 21:35
In Chicago they shoot cougars, no joke:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-chicago-cougar-shot-webapr15,0,98147.story
bloodmountainman
08-03-2009, 21:37
I'm finding this a little hard to believe but anything is possible. I live a few miles south of Neel and for a few nights back in late June/ early July we were hearing some strange animal sounds at night. All the neighbors had different theories,from foxes to bobcats. It was nothing I have heard in a lifetime of being in this forest. :eek:
saimyoji
08-03-2009, 21:43
beat me to it!
'sokay....you get sloppy seconds ;)
Bulldawg
08-03-2009, 22:05
I'm finding this a little hard to believe but anything is possible. I live a few miles south of Neel and for a few nights back in late June/ early July we were hearing some strange animal sounds at night. All the neighbors had different theories,from foxes to bobcats. It was nothing I have heard in a lifetime of being in this forest. :eek:
Awwww come on, you know there are a few up there man!!:eek::eek:
Snowleopard
08-03-2009, 22:44
Some friends think they saw a cougar in Morris, CT about 20 miles east of the AT. It's possible, but probably not part of a breeding population. DNA testing of feces at a deer kill verified a cougar at the Quabbin Reservoir in MA, but again probably not part of a breeding population. The Quabbin cougar and potential CT cougar are more likely captive animals released by the owner or possibly a lone long distance wanderer.
Ashepabst
08-04-2009, 18:16
so a big-as-a-man cougar walks up on group of adults, announces itself with a deep noise, and then casually walks away?
must have been a pet kitty out looking for Timmy.
In May 2008 my brothers and I were base camping at Horse Cove campground near Joyce Kilmer wilderness. Around supper time a fellow drove up the road and stopped beside our campsite. He got out of his truck and stood beside it for about a minute. Then we walked over and showed us a pic on his cell phone he just took of a large cougar that was walking in the road beside our camp.
Last year I saw a Liger.......... But my camera battery died. :mad:
saimyoji
08-04-2009, 20:55
Some friends think they saw a cougar in Morris, CT about 20 miles east of the AT. It's possible, but probably not part of a breeding population. DNA testing of feces at a deer kill verified a cougar at the Quabbin Reservoir in MA, but again probably not part of a breeding population. The Quabbin cougar and potential CT cougar are more likely captive animals released by the owner or possibly a lone long distance wanderer.
this is the explanation that the PA DCNR gives for cougar sightings here.
saimyoji
08-04-2009, 20:57
Last year I saw a Liger.......... But my camera battery died. :mad:
here ya go.
http://z.about.com/d/urbanlegends/1/0/v/B/liger1_sm.jpg
Last year I saw a Liger.......... But my camera battery died. :mad:
I thought that was the offspring of a tiger and a lion.
mister krabs
08-05-2009, 09:44
I thought that was the offspring of a tiger and a lion.
It's pretty much my favorite animal. It's like a lion and a tiger mixed - bred for its skills in magic.
:D
TIDE-HSV
08-05-2009, 11:23
Some years ago, my wife saw in our headlights what we thought was a cougar crossing the Blue Ridge Parkway. We'd just turned onto the BRP off US 276, heading north towards Mt. Pisgah. It was sizable and had the typical long tail with a black tip.
In case of back country mountain lion sighting :eek:
Buzz_Lightfoot
08-06-2009, 06:40
I saw bigfoot once. Unfortunately, my digital camera was out of film.:(
I saw bigfoot once. Unfortunately, my digital camera was out of film.:(
I saw his little brother old stubby toe. Same here my vhs was out of tape.:eek:
Frick Frack
08-06-2009, 07:59
In case of back country mountain lion sighting :eek:
Thats hilarious! That reminds me of these bogus signs someone has posted around the GSMNP for a couple of years....one of which is attached below (there was also the Appalachian Piranna which was a good one too....)
chefjason
08-06-2009, 09:13
In case of back country mountain lion sighting :eek:
That is awesome! Kinda like the t-shirt that reads "I don't have to out run the bear. I just have to out run you!" I guess now we need to start selling one's that read cougar instead of bear.
chefjason
08-06-2009, 09:17
That is awesome! Kinda like the t-shirt that reads "I don't have to out run the bear. I just have to out run you!" I guess now we need to start selling one's that read cougar instead of bear.
6679
le loupe
08-06-2009, 09:39
It's pretty much my favorite animal. It's like a lion and a tiger mixed - bred for its skills in magic.
:D
Vote for pedro!
Ron Haven
08-06-2009, 11:55
One day I was on a shuttle with Punchline & Tag on FS67 in the vacinity of Beech Gap Trail when a panther ran cross the road right in the front of us.
Frick Frack
08-13-2009, 08:27
http://www.ajc.com/news/mountain-lions-on-111249.html
http://www.forsythnews.com/news/article/3120/
What a coinsidence! Two articles in one week. It blows my mind these "wildlife specialist" say it is highly unlikley there are cougars in this area....what idiots! They need to get out more often.....
sasquatch2014
08-13-2009, 09:23
I had something run in front of my car about a month ago near my folks place about 4 miles from the Wiley Shelter in NY. Now having lived in WY I have had the rare privilege to see a MT Lion in the wild upon occasion and this just didn't really look like that but at the same time I know what both he Bobcat and the Canadian Lynx look like and it wasn't really like them either. The only thing that I could think that it might be is some type of exotic that someone released.
Some people have made reference this year to seeing something similar to what i saw over by both the Wiley Shelter as well as Telephone Pioneer Shelter that would give this thing a Range of over 15 miles. That is a pretty big range for the size animal that I saw. I don't know if it is the same thing or if what folks saw at these shelters was something else as I was not the one to see it there.
I am glad that we get to share the woods with these animals. For people that say they can't live around here there are too many people they need to look at the lion population and density populations out in California. They have problems attacking joggers and bikers out there from time to time. I am sure that it will be a while before we ever hear of that back here. Plus people around here really like those small dogs and I understand from a cougar point of view they are pretty tasty.
Ashepabst
08-13-2009, 16:39
<<For people that say they can't live around here there are too many people they need to look at the lion population and density populations out in California.>>
you should rethink that. google "us population density map".
SawnieRobertson
08-13-2009, 18:24
They saw the cougar right at the intersection of Richard B (348) and Craig's Gap Road (they were actually at the stop sign). They were right infront of someone's house. That particular area is indeed farmland, or rural, at the base of all the surrounding wilderness......not exactally where i would ever dream of a cougar encounter....esp one that was not bothered by 3 wet, muddy road bikers. When my wife & I went through the VA highlands on our SOBO last year another hiker had spotted a cougar & I can see one hanging out there in the wilderness, perched on rocks, hidden from everthing & everyone but not right in someones front yard by a tree watching roadies change a tire. Crazy!
Well, get used to it. Mountain lions are unpredictable. A lot depends on whether they are hungry. And sleepily watching road bikers change a tire would be just right. OTOH, if bicyclists were pedaling along, that could trigger its hunting desire. They are not really forest creatures. They tend to hang around the edges of woods and, as you said, on outcroppings. As farm lands are converted to subdivisions, mountain lions have human encounters of one sort or another more frequently. That is because they live out there in those fields, or did. Just think of it as a very large, powerful house cat. Add a mouse. (Mice live in fields as well.) Then you have got a pretty clear picture of what goes on. The mouse panics and runs; the mouse gets pounced upon. The cat doesn't roar. Neither does a mountain lion.--Kinnickinic
sasquatch2014
08-13-2009, 21:04
<<For people that say they can't live around here there are too many people they need to look at the lion population and density populations out in California.>>
you should rethink that. google "us population density map".
And what is your point with that? the areas of California where most of the attacks occured are the same as the area where I am located.
By the way looking at the map did you notice how the AT follows a pretty well populated area all the way up into N Vt and NH?
CBSSTony
08-14-2009, 08:38
About 1 1/2 years ago, I was taking my Mom on a ride on Richard Russell, just east of Hogpen and seen a bobcat. Last weekend I was hiking from Unicoi Gap to Hogpen and camped about 1.5 to 1.8 miles north of low gap and kept hearing something around camp, but never seen anything or tracks. Got me wondering now. Last winter I was on Duncan Ridge trail and did some bushwacking to a forest road that is gated in winter to do a wierd loop back to Cooper Creek and came upon some decent cat tracks. There was no claw marks at the end like bear tracks.
CBSSTony
08-14-2009, 10:03
If they admit there are cougars or mountain lions around it will just mean more of some sort of regulations and restrictions.
Ashepabst
08-14-2009, 15:32
And what is your point with that?
you implied that mtn lion pop. could establish in the densly populated east, because they're currently established in california. my point is that there is no comparison... there's lots of wide open backcountry in the west, and not so much in the east.
By the way looking at the map did you notice how the AT follows a pretty well populated area all the way up into N Vt and NH?
yes, of course. that's why there aren't any lion populations there.
TIDE-HSV
08-14-2009, 16:22
I think it's important to remember the different histories of the two areas. In the West, CA in particular, but also around Denver, etc., heavily populated areas are extending into areas where cougars are already established, minding their own business until presented with a new situation. In most areas, they are now protected, except in extenuating circumstances. They've proven they can live cheek by jowl with humans, just as coyotes do. In the East, they were wiped out and then a dense human population was established. They're not known to need a huge range to support themselves and food would be more abundant in the east, so smaller ranges should be capable of supporting the cats. Bobcats live right next to humans and are seldom seen. The remaining question is whether they have the ability to re-establish themselves in a region already populated, as the coyotes have. I never dreamed that I'd have coyotes in my yard (three wooded acres) or deer, but I do. After being wiped out, coyotes moved back east and repopulated their former range. I don't know that we would be justified in assuming, in a blanket fashion, that puma simply cannot be here. When the coyote was becoming re-established in the East, I remember hearing many skeptical remarks about the probity of the early sightings...
PS: Never expected armadillos, either...
http://www.ajc.com/news/mountain-lions-on-111249.html
http://www.forsythnews.com/news/article/3120/
What a coinsidence! Two articles in one week. It blows my mind these "wildlife specialist" say it is highly unlikley there are cougars in this area....what idiots! They need to get out more often.....
I qoute from the first article
"
That’s what a deer hunter in Troup County saw Nov. 16. He was sitting in a tree stand, waiting for a buck to come by, when something unexpected padded into the clearing: Puma concolor, an American mountain lion. He killed it.
The unnamed hunter, whom officials are not prosecuting for shooting the protected animal, contacted the regional offices of the state Department of Natural Resources in Fort Valley."
I am sorry someone felt the need to shoot the animal. Why did the officals not enforce the law?
Feral Bill
08-14-2009, 20:13
http://www.ajc.com/news/mountain-lions-on-111249.html
http://www.forsythnews.com/news/article/3120/
What a coinsidence! Two articles in one week. It blows my mind these "wildlife specialist" say it is highly unlikley there are cougars in this area....what idiots! They need to get out more often.....
There's a big difference between having individual cats, which may be released "pets", and having a viable breeding population. These are also, as others have said, very secretive animals. Where I live they are a common animal, but rarely seen.
When a breeding population is shown to be established in the east, I expect the fish and game people will be happy to adddress it.
wrongway_08
08-14-2009, 22:07
I was about to say, it'll only be a little bit before some idiot shoots one .......
I would like to know why he was not charged also. Guessing they felt sorry for it being tool-bag idiot that shot the cat? Not like it could have hurt this hunter - he was in a tee stand.
Its a shame the other young hunter (who mistaken the lady for a bear or deer) didn't mistaken this tool bag for a large bird sitting in the tree.........
sasquatch2014
08-14-2009, 22:42
you implied that mtn lion pop. could establish in the densly populated east, because they're currently established in california. my point is that there is no comparison... there's lots of wide open backcountry in the west, and not so much in the east. There is plenty of back country space to the north look at your distances. AKD park is the largest state park in the lower 48. It does not take thousand of sectors of lands to have a litter of kittens. What it takes is a good and steady food source. do I think that we have a self stationing population in the east yet the answer is no. do i think that it will happen in the future the answer is yes. Do I hope that it will happen the answer again us yes. What is the best way to promote correct backcountry behavior? Simple keep people from being the top of the food chain.
yes, of course. that's why there aren't any lion populations there.
Yet the same population density in Ca supports a healthy Mt lion population so again I seem to miss your point?
sasquatch2014
08-14-2009, 22:44
Yet the same population density in Ca supports a healthy Mt lion population so again I seem to miss your point?
sorry my quote got include in the top my response starts with the line "there is plenty of back country space .....
sticks&stones
08-14-2009, 23:15
My wife and I were on a road bike ride in the gaps (Neel's, Wolfpen, Woodys) yesterday and I had to cut it short and head back to work. My wife and a few others went on to Craig's Gap off 180 and one of the guys had a punture on Craig's Gap Road. As they were replacing the tube they heard a loud cougar cry and looked up across the road and not but 10ft off the road was a cougar looking at them. It stood up against the tree and growled again before walking off. They couldn't believe it! She said it was as big as me maybe bigger! She said the sound that it made was amazing (loud and deep). That would be the approximate area of Poplar Stomp Gap, Low Gap, Hog Pen Gap, Tesnatee Gap on the AT. Anyone else seen such a cat in that area around the AT? I'm so mad I missed it!
who said cougars were not in the appalachians?
Feral Bill
08-14-2009, 23:38
This (http://easterncougar.org/CougarNews/?p=797) is very interesting.
Snowleopard
08-15-2009, 00:27
This (http://easterncougar.org/CougarNews/?p=797) is very interesting.
Very interesting Feral Bill. It's kind of difficult to dismiss the dead cougar as 'unsubstantiated'.
One of Georgia’s best-known panther visits occurred in 1995, when 10 western cats were fitted with tracking collars and released in northern Florida as part of an experiment to determine if that region could be repopulated.
One of the male cats ended up in Burke County, Ga., before traveling along Brier Creek into McDuffie County. Eventually, it made its way to the Clarks Hill Wildlife Management Area near Thurmond Lake, where biologists recaptured it in February of that year and returned it to Florida.
During its travels through Georgia, the wandering panther never generated a single reported sighting.
There is at least one confirmed instance of a mountain lion in Mass. by DNA testing of feces at a deer kill site in the Quabbin reservoir. I really wonder where that cat was from. There's plenty of deer for them here if they ever decide to come.
Feral Bill
08-15-2009, 01:53
Very interesting Feral Bill. It's kind of difficult to dismiss the dead cougar as 'unsubstantiated'.
There is at least one confirmed instance of a mountain lion in Mass. by DNA testing of feces at a deer kill site in the Quabbin reservoir. I really wonder where that cat was from. There's plenty of deer for them here if they ever decide to come.
The Eastern Couger website has quite a bit of interesting material. The bottom line seems to be any are exceedingly rare. The east cold use a healthy population to thin out the deer infestation, besides, they're good looking beasts.
fredmugs
08-18-2009, 11:36
I took this picture in March while hiking along the Elk River in TN. I should have put my hand down next to it for a size comparison but the circumfrence of the paw print was slightly larger than my palm.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_xlwA0n3d0-8/ScevZteLwNI/AAAAAAAADHA/jWjE3lQI7c4/s800/Big%20Cat%20Paw.JPG
Here's my mountain lion tracks pic taken in Waterton NP
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=25857&catid=member&orderby=title&direction=ASC&imageuser=9622&cutoffdate=-1
Dances with Mice
08-18-2009, 14:20
And from about 40 miles away from the original report:
Possible wild cat spotted
Julie Arrington; Staff Writer
Published: August 12, 2009
Tina Walker was enjoying a quiet Sunday night with her husband when something strange walked through the couple's backyard. Walker, who lives in the Shannon Glen subdivision in northern Forsyth County, said she looked out her window again and saw what appeared to be a large wild cat scratching its ear.
"I jumped up and I said, 'What the heck is that out there?' You could see its head. It was huge and it had pointed ears and it was tan color," she said.
Walker said the animal jumped up when she opened the back door. The cat was slender and stood 2 to 3 feet tall from the ground to its back.
"It had this huge, long tail," she said. "It looked at us and it ran back into the woods."
She searched the Internet for photos of similar-looking animals. From what she found, the animal resembled a puma, mountain lion or cougar. She said her neighbors hadn't seen it.
She contacted the Georgia Department of Natural Resources on Monday about the cat.
Scott Frazier, a wildlife biologist with the DNR in Gainesville, said he plans to visit Walker's home to search for signs of the animal.
He said he hasn't received any other recent reports from Forsyth County about a large cat, and the likelihood is slim that the animal is some sort of wild cat.
"In this business, lots of people see things that they can't quite figure out what it is and a vast majority of times it turns out to be either something we can not explain or erroneous in some fashion," he said.
"But we try not to discount them, particularly if we get multiple sightings from a geographic area."
He said the only native cat with a significant population in the state is the bobcat.
Still, sightings similar to Walker's have been frequent this summer in north Georgia, including Hall, Lumpkin, White and Barrow counties.
The last confirmed mountain lion sighting in Georgia was in 1973. Hunting, urbanization and other factors may have contributed to the species' disappearance.
North America's mountain lion population is mostly concentrated in the Western U.S., though Florida does have a small population of panthers.
Frazier said anyone who sees an animal matching the description of Walker's should contact the DNR and, if possible, take a photo.
Walker said the cat wasn't aggressive and didn't try to approach her or her husband. Apparently, other animals on her property have also noticed the animal.
"I always had trouble with squirrels in my birdfeeder, but I noticed I didn't see any squirrels this weekend," she said.
Ridgeline
08-18-2009, 14:29
I live in Toccoa, GA and a few months ago there was a story in our local paper "The Toccoa Record" about a Stephens County resident seeing one on his property....that guy put out one of those motion cameras that hunters use and got a couple of pics of it and they put them in the paper......Also I read in the "Georgia Outdoor News" magazine last year that a guy killed a big one near Lagrange...At first they thought it might be one that was released or escaped from someones private zoo...but when the cat was inspected it had not be declawed and its footpads didn't show any signs of being kept in captivity.....regardless of what the DNR in GA says there are some big cats in GA.
saimyoji
08-18-2009, 14:45
If they admit there are cougars or mountain lions around it will just mean more of some sort of regulations and restrictions.
i asked this exact question of a PA DCNR official last year. She told me that the areas that the AT go through already contain a variety of rare, protected, and endangered species (including both plants and a variety of animals) and yet there are no all encompassing overbearing regulations. there are places where certain activities are restricted, but walking along a trail will not be one of them. I was happy to hear this.
GoldenBear
08-18-2009, 15:51
> who said cougars were not in the appalachians?
A group that would be ecstatic if such an event were actually to have happened.
www.easterncougar.org/pages/beyondsightings.htm
Check out some of their quotes:
"Are cougars now recovering in the East?
Not yet. Despite more sophisticated technology for finding cougars, and with more people looking than ever before, less evidence has appeared in the last decade than in the 1990s"
"Sanctioned studies since the late 1990s by the ECF, research universities, and state and federal wildlife agencies in NY, NJ, PA, MD, VA, WV, and KY have failed to find evidence of cougars"
"Where cougars are well established, any knowledgeable individual can find evidence in a few days. Yet, our own field searches, sometimes within hours or a day of a sighting, have failed to produce evidence"
At one point no more than about fifty cougars lived in the Everglades. This colony was so small that, without human intervention, it would have died out within a few decades.
www.beachbrowser.com/Archives/Environment/July-2000/EVERGLADES-Florida-Panther.htm
www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/environment_sciences/report-48008.html
Even though this colony was too small to survive for even twenty years, it left enough evidence for its presence to be un-mistakeable.
Would anyone insist that there exists a larger colony (ie, it MUST be larger, or it would have died out by now) somewhere in the Appalachians that, amazingly, has failed to leave ONE SCINTILLA of evidence of its existence?
Nearly Normal
08-18-2009, 16:29
> This colony was so small that, without human intervention, it would have died out within a few decades.
I hope the couger can make a comeback in limited numbers but when States begin to make the neccessary rules to help you may need impact fee permits and have usage reduction limits. Just like a hunting permit.
They already need that, hikers are hard on the land.
Reservations for 2? We'll put you on the list.
Careful what you wish for.
Pedaling Fool
08-25-2009, 12:41
> who said cougars were not in the appalachians?
A group that would be ecstatic if such an event were actually to have happened.
www.easterncougar.org/pages/beyondsightings.htm (http://www.easterncougar.org/pages/beyondsightings.htm)
Check out some of their quotes:
"Are cougars now recovering in the East?
Not yet. Despite more sophisticated technology for finding cougars, and with more people looking than ever before, less evidence has appeared in the last decade than in the 1990s"
"Sanctioned studies since the late 1990s by the ECF, research universities, and state and federal wildlife agencies in NY, NJ, PA, MD, VA, WV, and KY have failed to find evidence of cougars"
"Where cougars are well established, any knowledgeable individual can find evidence in a few days. Yet, our own field searches, sometimes within hours or a day of a sighting, have failed to produce evidence"
At one point no more than about fifty cougars lived in the Everglades. This colony was so small that, without human intervention, it would have died out within a few decades.
www.beachbrowser.com/Archives/Environment/July-2000/EVERGLADES-Florida-Panther.htm (http://www.beachbrowser.com/Archives/Environment/July-2000/EVERGLADES-Florida-Panther.htm)
www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/environment_sciences/report-48008.html (http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/environment_sciences/report-48008.html)
Even though this colony was too small to survive for even twenty years, it left enough evidence for its presence to be un-mistakeable.
Would anyone insist that there exists a larger colony (ie, it MUST be larger, or it would have died out by now) somewhere in the Appalachians that, amazingly, has failed to leave ONE SCINTILLA of evidence of its existence?
Then how do they (the "experts") explain this story http://easterncougar.org/CougarNews/?p=797?
I'm not saying the east coast has an exploding population, I'm not even saying every east coast state has a population, but I'm starting to question a lot of "experts", many of whom earn their ph.d's behind a computer. Look in all directions from any trail or mountain top (well... except much of the central AT) and you see a vast expanse of land, who goes into that? NOT the ph.d's.
We killed off the cougar back in the early 1900's, but did Canada? I don't know, but if they didn't why wouldn't it be easy for them to comeback into the states if there are cougars coming from Florida unnoticed by the "experts"?
There's a lot more undeveloped land than some would lead you to believe and one can not get a sense of how much open land there is by just looking at a road map -- very misleading representaion of land use, because many symbols are not drawn to scale, they can't be because then you wouldn't be able to see them. Look at the thickness of roadways...very misleading. Even the dots of small towns are wrong.
GoldenBear
08-25-2009, 17:32
that even someone without a PhD could figure it out.
> Then how do they (the "experts") explain this story
A solitary wild cougar going hundreds of kilometers from normal breeding grounds without being detected? That is SO last year's news.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080417-cougar-shot.html
Literally.
There's no question but that cougars can stealthily travel hundreds of kilometers -- that's been known for decades. But it's irrelevant. The question is whether a group large enough to survive and breed can do so for many decades without leaving ANY evidence of their presence. The Florida cougar colony was too small to survive, but so large that their existence was common knowledge. That it has happened in the East would be QUITE bizarre, as the Everglades is FAR less accessible and populated than the Appalachians.
> who goes into that? NOT the ph.d's.
If you had bothered to check, you would have found that two board members of the organization I quoted -- Marcella Kelly PhD and John Landre PhD -- have done extensive field research on large cats in the Americas.
www.mjkelly.info/research.html
www.oswego.edu/academics/colleges_and_departments/departments/biology/faculty/laundre.html
I'm not certain where your disdain for people who do scientific research comes from. Jealousy, perhaps? But this hatred is not grounded in simple facts.
> one can not get a sense of how much open land there is by just looking at a road map
My guess is that neither of above PhD experts used road maps to determine the size of the available cat habitat in the East. If you have evidence that they did so in their scientific research, I (and their colleages) would be interested in seeing it. If you have no evidence to back up this irrelevent, spurious statement, you may want to move on to something else.
Pedaling Fool
08-25-2009, 18:32
that even someone without a PhD could figure it out.
> Then how do they (the "experts") explain this story
A solitary wild cougar going hundreds of kilometers from normal breeding grounds without being detected? That is SO last year's news.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080417-cougar-shot.html
Literally.
There's no question but that cougars can stealthily travel hundreds of kilometers -- that's been known for decades. But it's irrelevant. The question is whether a group large enough to survive and breed can do so for many decades without leaving ANY evidence of their presence. The Florida cougar colony was too small to survive, but so large that their existence was common knowledge. That it has happened in the East would be QUITE bizarre, as the Everglades is FAR less accessible and populated than the Appalachians...
True, I know they can travel hundreds of miles, but I'm not convinced that there are ZERO breeding populations along the east coast outside Florida, but I'm in no condition to argue, I agree I'm not an expert. I'm still kind of curious about the status of the lions in Canada when we exterminated them here in the early 1900's.
I can not accept that of all the sightings are because of lone roaming lions. It would be easy to believe if you believe that all sightings are erroneous reports or reports of released/escaped pets, but I find that hard to believe.
...
If you had bothered to check, you would have found that two board members of the organization I quoted -- Marcella Kelly PhD and John Landre PhD -- have done extensive field research on large cats in the Americas.
www.mjkelly.info/research.html (http://www.mjkelly.info/research.html)
www.oswego.edu/academics/colleges_and_departments/departments/biology/faculty/laundre.html (http://www.oswego.edu/academics/colleges_and_departments/departments/biology/faculty/laundre.html)
I'm not certain where your disdain for people who do scientific research comes from. Jealousy, perhaps? But this hatred is not grounded in simple facts...
I have no disdain for science or for the researchers. I'm sure those are fine people, but I see from the references that most of their work is not on the east coast.
This is from Dr. Kelly's Research page:
Because many of the species I study exist outside the United States, I have numerous international collaborations with particularly strong ties to the Institute of Zoology in London (ZSL) where I collaborate with Drs. Sarah Durant and Chris Carbone. We are developing protocols for country-wide carnivore surveys (including remote camera surveys) in Tanzania, East Africa as part of the mandate dictated by the Convention on Biodiversity. I was recently made a Research Associate at ZSL.
I do NOT question their expertise.
Snowleopard
08-25-2009, 21:34
Researchers with Ph. D.s routinely hire the best local guides/hunters/trackers to assist in their field studies. I would like to believe that there are cougars in the Northeast, but I haven't seen any evidence of a breeding population. That is not to say that it is impossible in the future, just that there is no evidence of it now. There are places where there is an ecological niche for large cats and probably they will eventually reach here.
There are occasional mountain lions that wander rather far afield, such as the Florida cougar that was shot in Georgia. It takes more than one to establish a viable population.
Pedaling Fool
08-26-2009, 09:21
I hear you Snowleopard and GoldenBear
I probably overstated my position earlier and my apparent contempt for Ph. D’s is not there, probably a little frustration that boiled over from a book I’m reading now (completely different subject).
I’m not totally convinced that there are ANY viable population(s) of cougar on the East Coast. However, I’m also NOT convinced that there are zero population(s). My jury is still out.
I find it hard to believe that all sightings around Virginia and further north are either loan roamers, misidentified or escaped cougars. Do cougars roam this far from Florida?
I just don’t believe enough research has been conducted to come to the conclusion that there are no cougars out there, despite the camera-traps set up in various locations. However, that’s just a gut feeling and I didn’t mean to sound like an ardent believer in cougars reclaiming the East Coast.
take-a-knee
08-26-2009, 11:07
I remember reading the GA DNR biologists initially claimed that the cougar (from the breeding population in FL) that was killed by a hunter in GA had almost no "parasite load". They attributed this to the fact that it was obviously an escaped exotic "pet". Since DNA has proven this claim false, I haven't read of any new claims by the "experts", just silence on the subject. The fact that the lion had a low parasite load and was fully grown means that, biologically speaking, it was doing quite well. I think the hunter should have had to pay restoration costs to replace the lion. Though it is legal to shoot free-roaming exotic/non-native animals in GA (emus, elk, ostriches etc), this animal has been proven to be wild creature. Anyone too ignorant to know that there is no mountain lion season in GA shouldn't have hunting privileges.
What a jack _ss! That was like shooting Bigfoot! He should be held accountable for shooting it! We live in west TN and there were sightings of a black panther in our area a couple of years ago, which my husband saw thru his rifle scope while deer hunting. He was watching a deer thru the scope and when he brought the scope around he saw it trailing behind the deer. He also saw where something had "covered up" where he had field dressed a deer. Instead of the remains having been eaten, it had dirt and leaves scratched over it. A neighbor had told my husband of the sightings previously, and of course he was skeptical until he saw it himself. Also, our daughter had two golden retrievers. One disappeared and altho they searched and searched for it, they never found a trace of him, and the other had her eye slashed out by something. Her husband swears he saw the panther sitting on their carport one night.
OldStormcrow
08-27-2009, 16:03
We saw a mother mountain lion with two cubs walking up the street in our subdivision here in Greenville County in the mid-1970s. I saw them, the neighbors saw them, and the neighbor's big ol' dog saw them......but was very careful not to leave the yard to look any closer. There had been reports for weeks about a "big yellow dog" getting into trash cans in the neighborhood, then folks started getting a better look. The area was becoming quickly over-developed and a golf course was built to replace the swamp where the cats lived.....so they packed up and left.
Bilge Rat
08-27-2009, 19:20
I think there IS a breeding population.................:D
Skunk Ape
08-28-2009, 00:48
Several years ago a full grown male florida panther was killed crossing I-4 just 5 miles from downtown Tampa . This is 140 miles north of the everglades. Had he made it across the road he would have had a straight shot through various parks and national forests into South Georgia. What you are seeing is young male lions headed north of the glades to establish their own territories. If they stay in the glades they will be killed by the older males. Authorities in Florida have long known that lions range far north of their supposed territory. Sooner or later the young males ranging out of Florida will meet up with females coming in probably from the west or down the Appalachians from Canada, There is plenty of habitat in the east for them and the deer population is huge. That stupid hick in Georgia shot a federally protected species on federally owned land and should be prosecuted. Where on that neanderthals hunting license does it say Florida Panther.
blazinfire
08-29-2009, 02:38
cougar status! awesome!
sloopjonboswell
08-29-2009, 04:02
send em up to north georgia, we've got no problems with cougars up here above atlanta.
Daydream Believer
12-11-2009, 11:01
I found this thread on a search. I was thinking of mountain lions when I saw the one about the sighting near Hogpen Gap and thought I'd look up some past discussions. Last October when we were in the Blood Mtn area, our guide who shuttled us was telling us of a number of credible sightings in that area. We are going back in a few weeks and maybe we'll get lucky...we'll be in the Hogpen gap area also.
Years ago as a kid growing up in the mountains of PA (Allegheny area 1977), we heard the scream of what I believe was a mountain lion outside our farmhouse one summer night. Scared the crap out of us...and it even did the gutteral cough like you hear on African lion programs at the end of the scream...and no way was that a bobcat...the volume was beyond description. Have you ever had the hair stand up on your neck..literally? I did. The newspaper for our area reported screams in the night all over our area and there was speculation of "big foot." Personally I find the idea of a mountian lion much more credible than a mythical beast. That area was fairly remote and unpopulated with lots of deer and forest room.
Also, if an area can support a good healthy population of black bears...and there is a enough wilderness to do so, why not cougars? There are so many deer for them to feed on that a lion could easily find food.
There have been a number of credible sightings in VA to include one near the Dismal Swamp preserve in Chesapeake a few years ago...and some video if I'm not mistaken. Again, we have black bears, bobcats, and coyotes and an unbelievable deer population...why not big cats? The Preserve is HUGE too.
I hope that moron who shot that cougar in GA at least got fined. What a jerk.
WILLIAM HAYES
12-12-2009, 01:14
Bulldawg funny you mentioned chattahoochee gap did a section hike thru there in 2007 spent the night there and got jolted out of a good nites sleep by snarls and growls not far from where we were. I know what a bobcat sounds like and it was not a bobcat and it was not a bear I told the guys with me I thought it was a panther.
go dawgs
Hillbilly UGA grad
Sir-Packs-Alot
12-13-2009, 13:47
Anybody else had a confirmed cougar sighting on the North Georgia or North Carolina Trail? I too would love to see that picture (and I'm not talking Demi Moore here) !