View Full Version : External Frame Backpacks
Tuckahoe
08-16-2009, 21:03
Hello!
Getting into backpacking and hope to hit the trail soon. It's been quite a few years since I have bought any gear so I feel like I am having to get familar with everything once again.
I am in the market for a new backpack and was wondering about external frame backpacks. What are some of the quality manufacturers/brands? Also how have external framed backpacks changed over the last 20 years?
thanks
Very few people use Externals any more. There are many great quality internal or frame-less that are comfortable and much lighter. I used to use Kelty Tiogas and really liked them, but they weighed about 6 lbs. About 5 years ago, I bought a ULA P2 (no longer available, but the ULA Catalyst is very similar) which weighs about 2.5 lbs. Most gear has gotten much lighter and it would be very unusual to carry more than 30 or 35 lbs. More often I carry a total of between 20 - 25#, the externals are no longer necessary.
I like the ULA packs because they are very well made, and, although not the absolute lightest, are a great compromise when switching over from the bomb-proof externals.
Specifically, while there have probably been some minor refinements in externals in the last 20 years, most of the manufacturer's effort has gone into the frameless.
Many folks recommend buying all your other gear first, then buy the pack that will carry it. I've never felt this was necessary unless you were aiming for the absolute lightest, smallest pack you could get away with. Most of the popular packs will be lighter than an external, and still carry whatever you need - as long as you are reasonably carefull about watching your weight and bulk in all your purchases.
I would not suggest you aim for an ultralight/ultra small pack until you have a fair amount of backpacking experience - it does take some skill to use the ultralight gear effectively. A 25# pack is not ultralight, and should be your goal in my opinion.
http://www.sunnysports.com/Prod/JNSC.html
I'm an external fan myself, and the above link is what I am currently using.
Feral Bill
08-16-2009, 22:18
If you prefer them, there's no reason not to go external. Ebay usually has some good deals, and if you decide to change later you're not out much. Many externals are not super heavy, either. Maybe 4 lbs.
Many Walks
08-16-2009, 22:29
If you live near a Dick's Sporting Goods check out the Mountainsmith Master external frame pack for $100. Good value, but they aren't sold on line. Also, check out your local Salvation Army or other 2nd hand discount stores. I recently got a nice used Camp Trails pack for $15 and two brand new pairs of North Face nylon hiking pants for $4.50 each. Enjoy your hiking!
Tuckahoe
08-19-2009, 18:33
Thanks for the input guys. Went and spent a few hours at Blue Ridge Mountain Sports checking out the backpacks that they had in stock. Unfortunately the only external frames that they had were Kelty scouting packs.
I ended up spending a lot of time checking out a Gregory z65 and I really liked that pack. Thinking I will go back and buy it tomorrow.
On a side note I was really disappointed by the lack of knowledge of the clerks in the store. The one that attempted to help me really didnt have any sort of insight into what I should be looking at or checking out, and I had learned more doing my research on line before going into the store.
hopefulhiker
08-19-2009, 19:11
I thru hiked with one of these.. one of the latest designs in externals.. the best thing about it is the front pack....
http://luxurylite.com/
FamilyGuy
08-19-2009, 20:28
Ironically, Osprey makes some external framed backpacks disguised as internal framed packs - Exos, Atmos, etc.
Jim Adams
08-19-2009, 22:52
Thanks for the input guys. Went and spent a few hours at Blue Ridge Mountain Sports checking out the backpacks that they had in stock. Unfortunately the only external frames that they had were Kelty scouting packs.
I ended up spending a lot of time checking out a Gregory z65 and I really liked that pack. Thinking I will go back and buy it tomorrow.
On a side note I was really disappointed by the lack of knowledge of the clerks in the store. The one that attempted to help me really didnt have any sort of insight into what I should be looking at or checking out, and I had learned more doing my research on line before going into the store.
Save yourself some time and money. If you like externals then stick with them...they are great packs and about the same weight as internals of the same size. If you get an internal now...you will probably go back to an external in the future.:-?
geek
Funny, whenever this topic comes up folks talk about how they still use externals, how externals are just great, and recommend that you stick with an external even if you are buying a new pack. On the trail, VERY FEW hikers can be found who still use them. My unscientific observation would be about one in twenty, or even fewer.
I agree, they are great, and if you plan to carry 40 or 50 lbs, I would recommend one also. But all gear is lighter now a days, including MANY frameless or internal frame packs which are 1/3 the weight of 95% of the externals out there. Unless you have some type of unique situation (photographer, hiking with small children, making a movie, etc.) there is no reason to regularly carry 40 or 50 lbs, hence, no reason to carry the extra weight of an external.
I wish some manufacturer would spend some R&D money on updating the external frame lines that they sell, but they don't with the exception of Luxury Lite, and they have decided to price themselves out of the mainstream.
squirrel bait
08-20-2009, 09:23
Yea and all of us who still use them seem to be over a certain age. Externals are great but I have to agree that the newer internals are fantastic. I like how I obtained mine, how it fits, the wide variety of things I can choose to carry, the ability to hang necessary/funny/cool stuff from it and last but not least it's ground clearance when you sit it down. Lots of choices, good luck.
Fiddleback
08-20-2009, 10:41
Yes, LuxuryLite packs are high cost, but that doesn't necessarily make them expensive.;) You get a lot for your buck including, IMO, the best of both internal- and external frame worlds. At the least, their website is deserving of a close read ( http://luxurylite.com/packindex.html ). FYI, the pack's price has come down from that of a couple years ago...
FB
Jayboflavin04
08-20-2009, 10:44
I saw a guy on the trail with an OLD school external frame pack. It was canvas...so was the hip belt ( and 0 padding)!
skinewmexico
08-20-2009, 14:35
I think both of my ULA packs carry as well as an external. But my favorite external is the Kelty 50th Anniversary, if you can find one on EBay. That, or an old Jansport D3 or D5. Really not that heavy either.
Tuckahoe
08-20-2009, 16:25
Again, thanks for the input. Personally I am not a gearhead, and not easily drawn by what is the newest technology. Maybe that is why my friends sometimes call me a luddite. When I was backpacking as a teenager back in the 80s everyone I knew used an external frame and that is what I am most familiar with. I still greatly appreciate the external frame and see nothing wrong with it.
Now having said that, I went back to Blue Ridge Mountain Sports this afternoon to look at packs again. Fortunately “Eric” was there today. I was told he was the clerk to work with and deal with and I had a whole lot better experience this time than I had with the clerk on Tuesday. He has a lot of experience on a number of trails and was really able to answer all my questions straight forward and honestly. He even mentioned that he still uses external frames too.
So, we looked at packs and when I was in the shop last I took an interest in the Gregory z65. Just from checking it out in the shop Tuesday and again today, it is a pretty nice pack. The problem though is that when it came to fit, I some how fell into an odd position – my torso fell at the high range of the medium size or the low range of the large size suspension system. Plus I am a big guy, so the medium was still too small, and the large just didn’t fit right. Also found that the positioning of the shoulder straps on the Gregory packs rubbed against the back of my neck. This was also a problem with all of the Deuter packs as well.
Continued to look around the racks of packs and came across a North Face Terra 60. I had only looked at it in passing previously but paid more attention to it this time. It fit very well both in girth and length of torso; this model even has an adjustable torso. So I ended up buying the Terra 60. Even better I spend half of what I intended to spend on a pack.
So while I originally intended to get an external frame, I ended up with an internal frame pack because it was the best fit, and we fill me needs. On the other hand still would like an external, so HA!:banana
I am with you. I am old school when it comes to my pack. I prefer an external my self. I use an older, Jansport yosemite! It does what i need and like and fits me like a glove. Also I got it on ebay as well. Good luck.
David@whiteblaze
08-20-2009, 21:51
I was reading the "Backpacker & Hiker's Handbook" and came across a section i thought that you might be interested in.
"External-frame Packs
Today, this is an almost dying species. Yet I believ it is the best, most comfortable, and safest of the three types. Incidentally, virtually all of the people I backpack with, as well as all the group backpacking tour guides I know, prefer external-frame packs.
The external-frame pack is more often than not lighter weight than internal-frame packs. It carries your load higher, which is more comfortable, and you can walk upright, which is best for backpacking, especially hauling long distances. The frame holds the pack away from your back, allowing more ventilation in between, keeping your back cooler. and the external-frame is easier to pack, because you can prop it up and it's hold-open bar will hold the main compartment open while you load the pack. And most important, the external-frame pack is the safest when negotiating precipitous places, walking narrow ledges with steep drops, crossing swift streams--anyplace you might take a tumble.
The Appalachian Mountain Club hut men and women, who haul humungous loads up to mountain huts almost daily, use external-frame packs that do not have hip belts and carry the weight of the load up high. If they should stumble or fall, they toss the pack up and over the head, away from themselves. That way, they can get out of the pack harness far enough away from the load that it does not come down on them.
I am clearly prejudiced, as must be obvious by now, toward the external-frame pack. I have used a Kelty external-frame pack ever since I first discovered itsome years ago. I've also used the JanSport external-frame pack with equal success. Two old standbys!
Internal-Frame packs
On the other hand, you may choose to make the trade-offs inherent in using an internal-frame pack because of it's particular conveniences.
Most packs sold today have internal frames. The advantage of the packs is that they ordinarily do not have many extra features that come on external-frame packs. One type has a removable top compartment that can serve as a fanny daypack. Most have a number of side pockets designed for various functions. Many have an internal water bladder that snugs up against the back and has a plastic tube extending within easy reach of the mouth for drinking while walking.
And because the internal-frame pack was originally designed for wilderness skiing and mountaineering, it usually has fittings for carrying an ice ax, crampons, skis, and climbing rope.
Flexible-frame packs
The flexible-frame pack is the "hybrid" I spoke about. It was desinged by Skip Yowell of JanSport back in the days when Dick Kelty's external-frame pack was taking over the market. This pack's frame is an aluminum tubing, usually external to the pack, that flexes a bit when hiking. It has most of the advantages of the external frame and provides some additional comfort in its flexing with the body's stride.
Frameless packs
Frameless packs are the latest trend in lightweight backpacking gear. Dispensing with the pack frame reduces the weight of the pack considerably.No doubt for certain racing backpacking trips, this is the ideal. The big name in this type of pack is GoLite, which is doing a fourteen-day backpacking hike along the Continental Divide Trail without resupplying to demonstrate the value of its ultralightweight gear
Though this advantage is wonderful for some people, these packs just aren't my cup of tea. In my view, the disadvantages of the frameless pack far outweigh the advantage of its weightlessness. These frameless packs do not have the sturdiness of frame packs, nor do they have hold-open bars like external frame packs. Yet I must say, on one of my recent treks in Grand Canyon, I encountered a man obviously in his eighties who was outfitted entirely in ultralightweight gear and was covering some enviable hiking distances in enviable times.
You may not know which type of pack is best for your particular hiking style until after you have tried them out on the trail, an excellent reason for renting rather than buying your first outfit. Salesclerks at outfitting stores, especially at the large chains like REI and EMS, are very knowledgable about gear. They can be a great help to you in winnowing down your choices."
-William Kemsley Jr.
Backpacker & Hiker's Handbook
LIhikers
08-20-2009, 22:00
I was in the Campmor store a few days ago, and as usual, they had about half a dozen external packs hanging on the wall for display. If there was no market for them I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be there. The fact that they are tells me that Campmor must still sell a fair number of external frame packs.
Jim Adams
08-21-2009, 00:54
Funny, whenever this topic comes up folks talk about how they still use externals, how externals are just great, and recommend that you stick with an external even if you are buying a new pack. On the trail, VERY FEW hikers can be found who still use them. My unscientific observation would be about one in twenty, or even fewer.
I agree, they are great, and if you plan to carry 40 or 50 lbs, I would recommend one also. But all gear is lighter now a days, including MANY frameless or internal frame packs which are 1/3 the weight of 95% of the externals out there. Unless you have some type of unique situation (photographer, hiking with small children, making a movie, etc.) there is no reason to regularly carry 40 or 50 lbs, hence, no reason to carry the extra weight of an external.
I wish some manufacturer would spend some R&D money on updating the external frame lines that they sell, but they don't with the exception of Luxury Lite, and they have decided to price themselves out of the mainstream.
My external is 4800ci, weights 2lb. 10 oz. and packed for a thru hike weights 26lbs. Do you realize how light 26lbs. carries with an external? Way more comfortable than any internal that I've ever used. Internals became popular as a fad, not because they were better.:eek:
geek
skinewmexico
08-21-2009, 10:48
Internals became popular as a fad, not because they were better.:eek:
geek
Can't argue that. Not everyone is bushwacking, or going up Everest. Sure can't beat an external in the heat of the desert, carrying 3-4 gallons of water.
le loupe
08-21-2009, 11:15
My external is 4800ci, weights 2lb. 10 oz. and packed for a thru hike weights 26lbs. Do you realize how light 26lbs. carries with an external? Way more comfortable than any internal that I've ever used. Internals became popular as a fad, not because they were better.:eek:
geek
What external pack are you using at 2#10? Mine is the same size and while I acknowledge its not the lightest weighs 5.5.
I carried 25-30 on my last 35 miles and still thought i could do better by ditching my external.
Internals became popular as a fad, not because they were better.:eek:
geek
"A fashion that is taken up with great enthusiasm for a brief period of time; a craze."
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company (http://www.eref-trade.hmco.com/). All rights reserved.
*****************************
1. an intense but short-lived fashion: the skateboard fad
2. a personal whim [origin unknown]
Collins Essential English Dictionary (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/misc/HarperCollinsProducts.aspx?English) 2nd Edition 2006 © HarperCollins Publishers 2004, 2006
Internal frame packs began their rise to dominance in the early 80's and became very dominant about 20 years later, by the end of the 90's. They have retained this dominance ever since. Not hardly what I would classify as a "fad", especially in light of the definitions above.
I would also be interested in what external frame pack you have that weighs 2 lb 10 oz.
skinewmexico
08-21-2009, 13:50
Weight doesn't matter, does it? I see guys bragging all the time about how they'll never give up their 7# Gregory internal, because the suspension is so great.
Jester2000
08-21-2009, 19:55
Very few people use Externals any more. . .
I think it's pretty hilarious that the very first post after a guy asks for information about external frame packs is about why he shouldn't want an external frame pack. I looked up an inch or so and noticed that it didn't say "hey, can we debate the relative merits of external versus internal?" anywhere in the original post.
Funny, whenever this topic comes up folks talk about how they still use externals, how externals are just great, and recommend that you stick with an external even if you are buying a new pack. On the trail, VERY FEW hikers can be found who still use them. My unscientific observation would be about one in twenty, or even fewer. . .
Were the 5% you saw carrying them happy with them? I know I was happy with mine on my thru-hike; I wasn't aware that doing what 19 other people were doing would somehow make me happier. If I thought that way I imagine I'd never have thru-hiked at all -- my unscientific study shows me that a very tiny percentage of the population does so.
My external frame pack is long gone now. I used it to make a refrigerator backpack, but was unable to crack the power source problem, and I was tired of carrying 20 miles of extension cord. I'd definitely consider carrying one on my next long distance hike, though.
It may be entirely possible that the gear that works great for some individuals is not what other individuals choose to carry, and that the second group isn't necessarily making wrong choices.
Jester2000
08-21-2009, 20:03
Oh, and for my money the Kelty packs are as good as they've always been -- the Tiogas and Trekkers in particular. They've added hydration sleeves to them for the folks who like that kind of thing.
Durable, cheap, and heavy to people who are unaware of the fact that the weight is kind of meaningless because of, you know, the external frame.
Few comments on the comments:
I think it's pretty hilarious that the very first post after a guy asks for information about external frame packs is about why he shouldn't want an external frame pack. I looked up an inch or so and noticed that it didn't say "hey, can we debate the relative merits of external versus internal?" anywhere in the original post.
He did not ask solely about externals. He said he was unfamiliar with what was available today.
" It's been quite a few years since I have bought any gear so I feel like I am having to get familar with everything once again."
He also asked how external frame packs have changed in the last 20 years. I told him they hadn't changed much, that most manufacturers were spending their development dollars on internal and frame-less.
"Also how have external framed backpacks changed over the last 20 years?"
Were the 5% you saw carrying them happy with them? Probably, I assume that's why they were carrying them. I know I was happy with mine on my thru-hike; I wasn't aware that doing what 19 other people were doing would somehow make me happier. If I thought that way I imagine I'd never have thru-hiked at all -- my unscientific study shows me that a very tiny percentage of the population does so. The guy came online, and asked for opinion, I gave mine and pointed out what the majority of hikers found best , since he indicated he was unfamiliar with today's gear. Sorry if I did not state my answer to your liking.
My external frame pack is long gone now. I used it to make a refrigerator backpack, but was unable to crack the power source problem, and I was tired of carrying 20 miles of extension cord. I'd definitely consider carrying one on my next long distance hike, though.
It may be entirely possible that the gear that works great for some individuals is not what other individuals choose to carry, and that the second group isn't necessarily making wrong choices. Where exactly did you get the idea that I said that. In fact, I said there were valid reasons that I would still use and recommend an external frame pack.
Oh, and for my money the Kelty packs are as good as they've always been -- the Tiogas and Trekkers in particular. They've added hydration sleeves to them for the folks who like that kind of thing.
Durable, cheap, and heavy to people who are unaware of the fact that the weight is kind of meaningless because of, you know, the external frame.
Might agree with your first sentence, but my experience is with Kelty's from the 1970's, and yes, I still use them occasionally.
Second sentence is false. For one, 6 lbs for a pack is heavy by most people's standards today. Secondly, just because you don't notice the extra weight of the pack on your shoulders or back, it is still adding 6 lbs worth of stress to your knees and feet - simple physics.
David@whiteblaze
08-21-2009, 21:12
My external frame pack is long gone now. I used it to make a refrigerator backpack, but was unable to crack the power source problem, and I was tired of carrying 20 miles of extension cord. I'd definitely consider carrying one on my next long distance hike, though.
refrigerator pack... extension cord... thats hilarious...
Jim Adams
08-21-2009, 23:12
"A fashion that is taken up with great enthusiasm for a brief period of time; a craze."
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company (http://www.eref-trade.hmco.com/). All rights reserved.
*****************************
1. an intense but short-lived fashion: the skateboard fad
2. a personal whim [origin unknown]
Collins Essential English Dictionary (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/misc/HarperCollinsProducts.aspx?English) 2nd Edition 2006 © HarperCollins Publishers 2004, 2006
Internal frame packs began their rise to dominance in the early 80's and became very dominant about 20 years later, by the end of the 90's. They have retained this dominance ever since. Not hardly what I would classify as a "fad", especially in light of the definitions above.
I would also be interested in what external frame pack you have that weighs 2 lb 10 oz.
1994 Peak 1....most comfortable pack that I've ever used.
I have a Kelty, a Camptrails, 3 Gregorys, a North Face, a Dana Designs, an Ospry and a Jansport. Tried a Lowe and a Golite, ALL internals, most heavier than my external and not as comfortable.
Yes,internals did start as a fad by climbers looking for something less bulky than an external for climbing. Suddenly the feeling was that if it is good for (Everest, McKinley, insert mountain name here) then it must be GREAT for backpacking. Comfort, load capacity, ease of use none of this was considered. Sure the packs became better over the years but they still lack most of the performance available with the external. They are taking the route of all the other gear out there. TNF used to make some of the best equipment for severe climbing situations. Then suddenly everyone and his brother had to have a TNF jacket, sweater, down garment just because it was the "best"...it was overkill HOWEVER TNF sold TONS of equipment and realized that the market for this gear wasn't mountain climbers but teenagers and yuppies. Quality suffered and sales boomed. Same thing happened with internal packs. If you don't think so try to explain why there are $100 "school" daypacks for elementry children. Quality doesn't matter...name does. Don't even consider things like FOX GEAR...required by every teenaged out there...it used to be very high quality motocross gear. Fads, yes that is all it is...no one on earth carrying a serious load over long distances uses an internal frame pack....a lighter load just makes it that much more comfortable.:-?
geek
Jim Adams
08-21-2009, 23:17
LOL, skateboarding a "fad"? Where have you been hiding your head in the sand for all these years. I don't see an audience of millions complaining that backpacking isn't an event in the X Games. You truely do need to venture off of WB occassionaly.:)
geek
Two Speed
08-22-2009, 07:54
Ah, the old "internal vs. external pack" debate. Short version is if you're happy with what you're carrying it must be a good pack for you. I don't worry about what everyone else carries.
That's their problem.
Jim Adams
08-22-2009, 08:12
Ah, the old "internal vs. external pack" debate. Short version is if you're happy with what you're carrying it must be a good pack for you. I don't worry about what everyone else carries.
That's their problem.
Very true!
geek
David@whiteblaze
08-22-2009, 09:47
LOL, skateboarding a "fad"? Where have you been hiding your head in the sand for all these years. I don't see an audience of millions complaining that backpacking isn't an event in the X Games. You truely do need to venture off of WB occassionaly.:)
geek
Skateboarding is a fad, take it from a 14 year-old (soon to be 15) and, even though it is a fad (a long-lasting fad at that, what about balsa-wood planes? you can still buy some and it seems like they were all over in my dads heyday (whenever that was, dark ages maybe, i dunno) but it seems like skateboarding (the actual, u go out and jump a 10 ft. gap) as a fad is slowing down, and skateboarding as a profession, the x-games etc., is just doing whatever, making 100's of kids wish that they could hurl themselves off of the "mega-ramp" so, skateboarding is a fad, but I dont think anyone my age has ever run to their parents (like in a cheesy 60's era commercial with everyone so happy and smiling) and said "Dad! Dad!" "what is it Jr." "Can we go long distance backpacking!" "Sure, son, well make it a family trip." No. Now had this been a commercial, the next thing would be the announcer saying how these state of the art packs are better than anything else. So, i dont think backpacking has ever been a fad (unless boy scouts was a fad at some point.) so, it should hold steady with or without externals, internals, hybrids, frameless or whatever else they throw at us, we can still just find the kingd of pack that suits us and "Go take a hike!"
Might agree with your first sentence, but my experience is with Kelty's from the 1970's, and yes....
And yes, my 1970s vintage Kelty is the same pack I use today. It's got a lot of years but not many miles on it.
Jester2000
08-22-2009, 11:57
Hello!
Getting into backpacking and hope to hit the trail soon. It's been quite a few years since I have bought any gear so I feel like I am having to get familar with everything once again.
I am in the market for a new backpack and was wondering about external frame backpacks. What are some of the quality manufacturers/brands? Also how have external framed backpacks changed over the last 20 years?
thanks
I highlighted the original poster's actual questions, just in case anyone was confused. I usually don't take someone's explanation of why they're asking a question as a question in and of itself. But that's probably just me.
I'll see if I can find photos of the refrigerator backpack.
Fiddleback
08-22-2009, 12:18
"Fads"...
My first backpack was in '59 or '60. It was a long wait for an impatient kid who wanted to be a Boy Scout from the age five.
I was introduced to skateboarding in the summer of '64, the year of Jan and Dean's, "Sidewalk Surfin'". It was at a Denver stopover during a move from MD to TX. I was hardly at the lead of cultural shifts at that time and the fad had been going on for a while on the west coast.
No stunning revelations here...just pointing out that some fads are long lived...:D Rock n' roll will never die, it just goes underground every now and then.:banana
FB
Jester2000
08-22-2009, 12:33
"Fads"...
My first backpack was in '59 or '60. It was a long wait for an impatient kid who wanted to be a Boy Scout from the age five.
I was introduced to skateboarding in the summer of '64, the year of Jan and Dean's, "Sidewalk Surfin'". It was at a Denver stopover during a move from MD to TX. I was hardly at the lead of cultural shifts at that time and the fad had been going on for a while on the west coast.
No stunning revelations here...just pointing out that some fads are long lived...:D Rock n' roll will never die, it just goes underground every now and then.:banana
FB
All of this may be true, but you really do need to get rid of that Pet Rock. It's embarrassing.
Fiddleback
08-22-2009, 20:03
I never had a pet rock. I saw my friend's pet rock be put down for distemper...I never could look at another one.:p
FB
Jim Adams
08-22-2009, 23:25
All of this may be true, but you really do need to get rid of that Pet Rock. It's embarrassing.
I got rid of mine almost immediately...it was always stoned!:eek:
geek
Amazing double standard. The same folks who stated how wrong it was for me to point out the advantages of internal frame packs and their popularity to a question about external frame packs, after the poster stated that he was not at all up-to-date on what was available, are now discussing pet rocks and their attributes.
Jester2000
08-23-2009, 12:11
. . . Secondly, just because you don't notice the extra weight of the pack on your shoulders or back, it is still adding 6 lbs worth of stress to your knees and feet - simple physics.
There are a lucky few of us who don't have to worry about stress on our knees and ankles. There's an even smaller, luckier group who pay no attention whatsoever to "simple physics":
It might not be particularly important to note this, but the ATC doesn't recognize, compile, or keep records for speed. But that didn't stop me from hiking the entire trail in four days, over a long weekend in June of 2002. I hiked 23 hours a day at a little over than 23 miles an hour. It was exhilarating. I saw many things that other hikers never saw and felt things no other hiker felt. I passed straight through a pony in Grayson Highlands. I smelled pain. I heard colors. I removed one of my own kidneys to get lighter. I bounced it forward to Hanover and put it back in. I base jumped off the Knife Edge and landed on the roof of the strip club in Millinocket.
It was quite a hike.
I think that ultimately, the important thing to take into consideration is not that external frame packs are considerably heavier than internal or frameless packs, but that external frame packs are considerably lighter than my truck.
Amazing double standard. The same folks who stated how wrong it was for me to point out the advantages of internal frame packs and their popularity to a question about external frame packs, after the poster stated that he was not at all up-to-date on what was available, are now discussing pet rocks and their attributes.
Hmmm. Perhaps. On the other hand, Lyle may be someone who's just easily amazed. And it may just be that posters here, upon seeing something like this . . .
. . . It fit very well both in girth and length of torso; this model even has an adjustable torso. So I ended up buying the Terra 60. Even better I spend half of what I intended to spend on a pack.
. . . no longer feel the need to stay on point. Sort of obviates the need for futher actual discussion, no? It's kind of the reason why I saved my criticism -- which itself was not on topic -- until after Tuckahoe's post (in which he buys a pack, emphasis mine), and one of the reasons I wasn't critical of, say, Lyle's decision to start a debate on what does and does not constitute a fad (coming as it did after Tuckahoe's post). It's the way of whiteblaze; I found it hilarious that it happened in the second post.
I suggest that, considering that Tuckahoe has already purchased a pack, we instead argue about whether or not he should:
a)stay in shelters
b)bring a dog with him
c)carry a gun
d)skip hiking entirely and have an affair in South America
I want to state my preference for selection "D"
FamilyGuy
08-23-2009, 13:29
just because you don't notice the extra weight of the pack on your shoulders or back, it is still adding 6 lbs worth of stress to your knees and feet - simple physics.
Not exactly. There are realities around load transfer, stability, and torsional effects that can have a 1.5 pounds pack cause more muscular fatigue than a 6.5 fully framed pack designed to carry heavy loads. Every time the weight in your pack sways from side to side your body fights to bring it back to 'center.' For an UL pack that cannot effectively stabilize the load against the users back and especially the hips, the difference in 5 pounds can make a huge difference in torque on the body, most notably over longer distances.
Consider the barbell squat. Try squatting with 200lbs for 10 reps. Then add a weighlifting belt. I bet you get 15 reps.
Jester2000
08-23-2009, 13:36
As promised, The BSR "Fridgerator Backpack":
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/8/picture_028-med_thumb.jpg (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=7174&c=searchresults&searchid=26793)
From the Billville Safety Research catalog:
"Allows one to carry cold beer and meat into the wilderness. When full of beer and meat the BSR "Fridgerator Backpack" does not have the space to carry a tent or other backpacking essentials, but we feel that if you can't find someone to share their tent when you've got beer and meat, you're hiking with the wrong crowd. 20 mile long extension cord available separately."
Every time the weight in your pack sways from side to side your body fights to bring it back to 'center.' For an UL pack that cannot effectively stabilize the load against the users back and especially the hips, the difference in 5 pounds can make a huge difference in torque on the body, most notably over longer distances.
Is this not one of the reasons that climbers, scramblers,skiers, and bushwhackers give for preferring an internal? That it holds the load closer to the body. stabilizes the load better, thus reducing the swaying of the pack and thus throwing the person off balance?
FamilyGuy
08-23-2009, 13:56
Is this not one of the reasons that climbers, scramblers,skiers, and bushwhackers give for preferring an internal? That it holds the load closer to the body. stabilizes the load better, thus reducing the swaying of the pack and thus throwing the person off balance?
Ah yes - I think I may have taken your post out of context - I apologize. I agree with you on this.
Jester2000
08-23-2009, 14:12
Is this not one of the reasons that climbers, scramblers,skiers, and bushwhackers give for preferring an internal? That it holds the load closer to the body. stabilizes the load better, thus reducing the swaying of the pack and thus throwing the person off balance?
This is probably the source of Jim Adams' comment about his opinion of the "fad" nature of the internal packs -- Lyle is absolutely correct in his description of why the above prefer internal packs, and it's one of an internal pack's great strengths.
That thru-hikers rarely ever climb, scramble, ski, or bushwack, coupled with the fact that when you see magazine photos of people outdoors they're usually doing something exciting like the above (and wearing external packs while so doing) kind of explains Jim's point of view. This in no way, however, diminishes the fact that internal packs can be great packs.
Closeness to one's body can create problems as well as benefits, though -- I used to get pretty bad heat rashes on my back, which I ascribed to both the internal frame pack I was wearing and the fact that I was filthy and didn't have the common sense to wash and clean out my pores.
Last year I carried an Osprey Atmos on the PCT, which seemed to give some of the benefits of both packs without the negatives. I do carry quite a bit of weight, though, so I might buy an external next. We'll see.
Pacific Tortuga
08-23-2009, 15:14
What would you think about Brian of ULA building an external frame and suspension for his Catalyst model. :-?
Would they sell ?
Jester2000
08-23-2009, 15:45
. . .That thru-hikers rarely ever climb, scramble, ski, or bushwack, coupled with the fact that when you see magazine photos of people outdoors they're usually doing something exciting like the above (and wearing external packs while so doing) kind of explains Jim's point of view. This in no way, however, diminishes the fact that internal packs can be great packs. . .
Meant to write "internal." My apologies.
Let me qualify this by saying I use a Gregory Forester internal. I read somewhere that one of the reasons that internals are so popular is that they convey the "Mountain Jock" image. In other words, they are cool. I suppose marketing has something to do with it too. I've been thinking about trying an external again. I have a 70's vintage Sears Hillary I that is still in great shape. I think that if I got replacement shoulder straps and hipbelt, it might be good to go. This was the pack I wore on my first backpacking trips in the late 70's and it still has a lot of sentimental value. It even has aluminum zippers.
I liked my old camptrails adjustable II. The two complaints I had were:
The frame would catch on some mesquite and I would get hung up.
Bushwacking off trail on the side of a hill could be very "sporty" ( tall center of gravity ).
I keep gazing fondly at one of the smaller Jansport externals designed for scouts or shorter folk. Perhaps modify it a hair. The frame is small enough not to get caught by low flying branches. Perhaps I could get a heavy duty rain cover to disguise it. :rolleyes:
jest my two cents.
IronGutsTommy
09-02-2010, 16:04
thanks for the info on the pros and cons of different frame designs.. as for fads, i think fads are things that become popular without any actual benefit or need, like jelly bracelets or z cavaricci pants.. the inherent benefits givien by both internals and skateboards for that matter, exclude them from the fad group. ever tried fitting a bicycle in a school locker?
mister krabs
09-02-2010, 16:24
I've had my eye on an Alps mountaineering zion (http://www.rei.com/product/798718?preferredSku=7987180010&cm_mmc=cse_froogle-_-datafeed-_-product-_-7987180010&mr:trackingCode=E9F74FCB-AF15-DF11-9B13-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA). Made by an ex-kelty guy, 60$ at REI outlet, looks pretty good. I bet I could get it down to 4 lbs with some scissors
http://media.rei.com/media/oo/0ee02286-f0ce-46a5-a0c4-27a4b3e99850.jpg (http://www.rei.com/features/zoom.html?img440=/media/oo/0ee02286-f0ce-46a5-a0c4-27a4b3e99850%26style=798718%26sku=7987180010&image)
http://media.rei.com/media/rr/0e553060-fbef-4391-a406-07e399f930d2.jpg
skinewmexico
09-02-2010, 18:23
What would you think about Brian of ULA building an external frame and suspension for his Catalyst model. :-?
Would they sell ?
Never happen. Brian sold ULA last year.
IronGutsTommy
09-02-2010, 21:01
thats a good looking pack krabs.. the padding just screams comfort
I've had my eye on an Alps mountaineering zion (http://www.rei.com/product/798718?preferredSku=7987180010&cm_mmc=cse_froogle-_-datafeed-_-product-_-7987180010&mr:trackingCode=E9F74FCB-AF15-DF11-9B13-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA). Made by an ex-kelty guy, 60$ at REI outlet, looks pretty good. I bet I could get it down to 4 lbs with some scissors
http://media.rei.com/media/oo/0ee02286-f0ce-46a5-a0c4-27a4b3e99850.jpg (http://www.rei.com/features/zoom.html?img440=/media/oo/0ee02286-f0ce-46a5-a0c4-27a4b3e99850%26style=798718%26sku=7987180010&image)
http://media.rei.com/media/rr/0e553060-fbef-4391-a406-07e399f930d2.jpg
Wow, that looks almost identical to my Kelty Trekker 3950!
SMSP
Jester2000
09-03-2010, 00:17
I've had my eye on an Alps mountaineering zion (http://www.rei.com/product/798718?preferredSku=7987180010&cm_mmc=cse_froogle-_-datafeed-_-product-_-7987180010&mr:trackingCode=E9F74FCB-AF15-DF11-9B13-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA). Made by an ex-kelty guy, 60$ at REI outlet, looks pretty good. I bet I could get it down to 4 lbs with some scissors
http://media.rei.com/media/oo/0ee02286-f0ce-46a5-a0c4-27a4b3e99850.jpg (http://www.rei.com/features/zoom.html?img440=/media/oo/0ee02286-f0ce-46a5-a0c4-27a4b3e99850%26style=798718%26sku=7987180010&image)
http://media.rei.com/media/rr/0e553060-fbef-4391-a406-07e399f930d2.jpg
This is a good looking pack. I'm going to have to check it out.
Jester2000
09-03-2010, 00:18
$59?!? Um, sold.
IronGutsTommy
09-03-2010, 00:27
not too familiar with externals.. does that hard frame sit against ur back? that¸art looks less than comfy
Jester2000
09-03-2010, 00:39
not too familiar with externals.. does that hard frame sit against ur back? that¸art looks less than comfy
No, typically what you have (and you can see it if you look carefully at the photos) is a section of the pack that will touch you back that has some horizontal straps and what looks like some mesh. This is what touches your back. The frame (and the pack itself) don't touch you, which is why an external can be nice to wear in the heat of summer -- you have some airflow between you and the pack. And because the vertical frame is sending the weight down (to your hips) instead of against your back, you don't end up with the kind of compression that would lead to the pack pressing against you.
It's a pretty cool design, external frames. Believe it or not.
Trailweaver
09-03-2010, 02:38
O.K., I agree that internals are lighter, and I needed to get rid of some weight so I bought one. That doesn't mean that I don't curse out loud when I have to pack the @#%^$ thing out in the woods, especially when it's hot and I'm sweating or when it's damp from rain, etc. I hate having to pull every single thing out of it when I'm looking for something, I hate not having pockets on the outside (or enough pockets) to put various things in that I want to find in a hurry; basically, I hate the backpack I have. I only take it because it's the one I have now and it's lighter in weight. I'm waiting for the day when something (anything!!!) else comes along that I will somehow (God help me!) find that I like better. There, I've vented. ; - )
What would you think about Brian of ULA building an external frame and suspension for his Catalyst model. :-?
Would they sell ?
I can't call that an external frame, but it's difficult for me to explain why.
The REI Flash 65 has great pockets on the outisde of the main compartment for organizing and it's fairly lightweight and if it doesnt met your needs, then REI's customer service is great.
SMSP
I use the same external frame that I have had for 34 years (Damn, I'm getting old :eek:). I have tried internals, but have not found them as comfortable as my old frame. For me, an external carries the load better as it goes directly to my hips, and the ventilation on my back is far superior. I sweat like a pig so I need LOTS of ventilation...
My frame has had several bags--it currently sports a homemade silnylon bag and homemade straps and hipbelt. No fancy straps, buckles, load adjusters, etc. that just add extra weight. It is just a smidge over two pounds.
My suggestion, for what it is worth, is to go to some local thirft stores and find an old external frame with good straps and belt. Take off the heavy bag, cut off or remove any unnecessary garbage like extra straps or frame extenders, and just strap on stuff sacks ala Carol "Brawny" Wellmans "packless system".
pgustaf249
09-10-2010, 09:34
Thoroughly enjoyed this exchange. Are any of you external frame folks hammock people?
Conversely, I like the way a framless pack helps keep me warm in fall/winter/spring,
but I am considering a primitive triangular packframe and using my bivy sack as the pack cover. I think I could do a better job on the lashing, but I like the use of wood. If it breaks it can be repaired, so it can be built lighter.
http://www.primitiveways.com/pack_frame.html
I used to use a Kelty Super Tioga for years. I liked it, beat the hell out of it, but stop using it like 12 years ago. I stopped using it because, first, I got an internal. and also, because of weight and size (that thing is huge).
I do think that the belt on the external sat on my hips way better than any other internal I've had (Osprey's, Mystery Ranch, Jansport). I have like no hips.
I've been thinking about trying another external, but one that is smaller. I've looked at the Kelty Trekker 3950 and the Jansport Carson. Both seem ok but I think I might go for the Kelty. Besides shape, what is the difference between the Jansports rounded/connected frame at the bottom and the Kelty's open bottom H frame? Is one better?
Another thing I miss about external, as mentioned, is all the pockets and organization.
Are any of you external frame folks hammock people? Yes, I switched to a homemade hammock/tarp about 4 years ago. Just finally got to the point where I couldn't sleep comfortably on the ground.
Does anyone use just the frame, and then just wrap up all their gear in their bivy or tarp?
Are any of you external frame folks hammock people?
For my last trip (GSMNP) I used a hammock. The passing years have made it hard to spend much time on the ground.
I've had my eye on an Alps mountaineering zion (http://www.rei.com/product/798718?preferredSku=7987180010&cm_mmc=cse_froogle-_-datafeed-_-product-_-7987180010&mr:trackingCode=E9F74FCB-AF15-DF11-9B13-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA). Made by an ex-kelty guy, 60$ at REI outlet, looks pretty good. I bet I could get it down to 4 lbs with some scissors
http://media.rei.com/media/oo/0ee02286-f0ce-46a5-a0c4-27a4b3e99850.jpg (http://www.rei.com/features/zoom.html?img440=/media/oo/0ee02286-f0ce-46a5-a0c4-27a4b3e99850%26style=798718%26sku=7987180010&image)
http://media.rei.com/media/rr/0e553060-fbef-4391-a406-07e399f930d2.jpg
That looks exactly like my son's Kelty Tioga.
I've always been a fan of external frames for two main reasons. First and foremost, the high center of gravity, particularly when I don't have anything strapped to the frame below my pack bag, results in a significantly more comfortable carry for me. The internal frames I've used have all put pressure on my back because the center of gravity is further away from my body. With the external, 100% of the weight is on my hips. The second benefit is in warm weather; the mesh bands keep my back from sweating so much. Apparently some internals (Osprey?) have addressed this concern, but I haven't tried them.
Still got the Camp Trails Cruiser frame I got when I was 14 years old. Its on its 3rd packbag and second suspension system. Frame is still in good shape and carries a load well.
Dennis
"What would you think about Brian of ULA building an external frame and suspension for his Catalyst model"
Not much of a chance of that happening but the new owners (since Aug 09) Chris and Sally (McMaster) might be .
Franco
Snoring Sarge
12-20-2010, 07:19
I know next to nothing about backpacks, though I know a little about marketing.
New is cool and will sell
Need something different to sell.
New product is packaged to replace a perfectly functioning currently own equipment?
Generate a supposed need by having "stars" endorse activities that will not exist for most of current user.
This how the gun market keep producing new rifles and calibers year after year. When in fact the "new" stuff does not really help the hunter be more successful beyond the placebo effect.
So I want the Hike the AT, will a Kelty Tekker 3950 help me carry the stuff I need to get from Springer to Katahdin better than my DOD issued Alice pack?
beakerman
12-20-2010, 12:49
I know next to nothing about backpacks, though I know a little about marketing.
New is cool and will sell
Need something different to sell.
New product is packaged to replace a perfectly functioning currently own equipment?
Generate a supposed need by having "stars" endorse activities that will not exist for most of current user.
This how the gun market keep producing new rifles and calibers year after year. When in fact the "new" stuff does not really help the hunter be more successful beyond the placebo effect.
So I want the Hike the AT, will a Kelty Tekker 3950 help me carry the stuff I need to get from Springer to Katahdin better than my DOD issued Alice pack?
That is precisely my take on internal frame packs.
I bought a very light internal frame pack about a year ago and have taken it out a few times. It's nice in the winter when I'm not over heating but sucks in the summer when its hot and humid. I like air on my back. I also find I can't carry the same load of gear and be as comfortable with the internal frame pack.
I have an still use my old large alice pack. I have the perfect torso size for it so when I put the hip belt where it sis supposed to be I have very little wieghton my shoulders and if I'm going to be scrambling I just tighten the shoulder straps to bring it tight at the top to prevent any shifting around.
Its just a preference to me like taking your coffee black or with cream...some folks like it one way others not so much. One side's preference does not invalidate the preference of the other.
beakerman
12-20-2010, 12:51
lefteye...
in short your alice will get you there, jsut as mine will, but you might find you are more comfortable with some other pack. I tried others and still fall back on my alice you may find you are different.
Snoring Sarge
12-20-2010, 23:14
I just reread my post, please except my apologies. Dyslexia, public education combined with sleep deprivation is not a good combination for proper communication.
I do not plan on using my old ALICE pack on the AT. It has been recycled as a training weight pack. I have strapped 25 lbs of recycled lead to it and plan on walking the local Greenway path here in Cheyenne. Cheap and simple training tool, plus it will work well on the treadmill. Each week I will had 5 pound to it till the total pack weight is
60 pounds.
It is all about the 6Ps
Proper planning prevents piss poor perfomance