Go Lite Jam-Squared or Pinnacle?

[XCskiNYC]

I am currently using an LL Bean White Mountain pack. My pack weights were 41 lbs a few weekends back and 37 pounds last weekend. The 37-lb weight actually included more food (3 days versus a day or so worth) but was after I had tried to cut down weight.

Here's my Big 4 weight:

Alps Mountaineering Zephyr 1 tent, 4 lbs 1 oz.

Campmor (Pacific Outdoor Equipment) self-inflating sleep pad, 1 lb 14 ozs.

Pacific Northwest (K-Mart) fleece sleeping bag, 1 lb 8 ozs.

LL Bean White Mountain internal frame pack, large, 4500 to 5700 cu, 6 lbs 6 ozs.


So I am looking to replace the pack with a lighter pack, either a Go Lite Jam-Squared or their Pinnacle ($100 and $130 from Campmor respectively).

What I am pondering is the weight handling abilities. The Jam-Squared is rated by Go Lite as having, in the large size, 3300 cubic inches and load capability of 30 pounds. The Pinnacle in large is rated at 4650 cubic inches and 40 pounds carrying capacity. Weightwise the two Go Lite packs are within a couple of ounces of 2 pounds.

Since I'm at 37 pounds now and the new pack will bring the weight down to about 33 pounds, it would seem that the Jam-Squared might be okay.

Anybody used these particular packs, have any feedback as to how conservatively Go Lite rates the load carrying capability?

These are the Go Lite specs for their packs:


http://www.golite.com/images/sizing/packs.gif

[skinewmexico]

I think those weights by GoLite are optimistic. I had about 35 in my Pinnacle, and I could feel it start to buckle in the middle. I know that around 22# carries nicely in my Jam2. Just remember, you're looking at ultralight, frameless packs, so your gear needs to be the same. And small. I guess what I'm saying is you'll be a lot happier with those packs if you also replace your tent and pad.

[mister krabs]

I think you'll be pushing beyond the comfort limits of the Jam, to me the 30# is about right for a limit. I carry 25 in comfort, but wouldn't want to carry 33. If you've got that much in summer gear, the jam probably won't be big enough.

Having said that, the jam might make a good 3 season pack for you if you can shave the gear list a bit. See if you can get your gear into a tall kitchen garbage bag, that's about 3000cu in. You can always use your old one for a winter pack when you'll have more bulk. I have no experience with the pinnacle.

[mister krabs]

Agreed with Ski on the tent. A nylon tarp from campmor and one of those cheap rei lafuma summer bags might get you in the weight you'd need to be for less than a hundred bucks. That's how I got there.

[pafarmboy]

I just got back from a 175 mile section hike using the Pinnacle (little over 2 pounds) in replacement of a Kelty 5400 (6.5 pounds). My base weight was slightly over 22 pounds. With full food and water I was at around 33 pounds. The Pinnacle carried it easily and I can honesty say I felt like I was WEARING the pack instead of carrying it, and it made a huge difference overall. Since you are at 37 pounds, it might hang differently, but I wouldn't count on it if you pack your stuff properly.

The only thing I thought I needed to do ahead of time to adjust for the new pack, and I'm glad I did, was to buy drysacks for my various items that didn't already come with one (had 5....sleeping bag...food....undies/socks....raingear....other clothing) that made it easier to sort/get to gear since the Pinnacle is really just one big stuff bag with no seperate compartments. Counting my tent sack and sleeping pad sack, I had 7 different stuff sacks that were easy to haul in and out of the pack. I never thought I wouldn't miss my neat little side pockets on my Kelty, but using this system, didn't miss them at all. Bought 2 of the 3 per pack drysacks from Wally World, 10 bucks each.

Strangely, the only 2 days (out of 11) that I had the pack annoy me was the 2 days where my load was the lightest (heading into town for a resupply, so little food left). The pack seemed to ride lower on my back and thus, seemed to transfer the weight off of my hips for some reason. I did some adjusting of the side compression straps on my last day out to keep the cargo thinner, and thus higher, in my pack and it seemed to do the trick.

I would heartily recommend the Pinnacle, you won't be sorry.

[dloome]

You WILL be really pushing the weight/volume limits of the Jam for sure, and probably at least the weight comfort limit for the Pinnacle.

If you want to lighten your load, it's best to replace your pack last, when you've already reduced the rest of your gear- So it actually fits in your pack, and carries comfortably.

[pafarmboy]

Rereading the posts, I now realize that with the PInnacle you would be at 33 pounds, right where I was. Go for the Pinnacle, its the perfect pack for the weight you'll be carrying, IMO.

[skinewmexico]

I will say, after reading pafarmboy's post, that when I had trouble with my Pinnacle bending, I wasn't smart enough to tighten the compression straps. I would also add that the Pinnacle is so big, I only use it in winter when I have a lot of bulky items. I also cut a piece of Coroplast to match the foam back panel, and that seems to help greatly with weight transfer.

[kolokolo]

I have a Pinnacle, which I used for the first time on my Springer - Deep Gap NC hike this Summer. I agree with a couple of the points made above:

- Having small stuff sacks to separate your gear will help a lot, since there are no side pockets.

- Pack carefully, since the Pinnacle tends to assume the shape of what is inside.

- Lighten your gear first, then lighten your pack.

Overall, I think that GoLite's rating of 40lb for the Pinnacle is definitely on the high side. I would stay under 30 if possible.

[XCskiNYC]

Thanks to all for the rapid responses and helpful suggestions.


Just remember, you're looking at ultralight, frameless packs, so your gear needs to be the same.

I was so excited about the prospect of cutting 4.5 lbs of pack weight that I overlooked the Jam/Pinnacle being frameless. I am now considering moving up to the Pursuit/Quest which have frames with plastic sheets and aluminum stays (they seem to just be bringing out a new model with two aluminum stays while the past year's model had a single aluminum stay). The Pursuit and Quest range from 3 lbs even to 3 lbs 5 ozs with volume of 51 to 76 liters and weight ratings of 35/45 pounds.

I tried to see some GoLites in person tonight but EMS had none in stock. Way to stock, EMS.

On the gear I will of course try to reduce as much as possible wherever possible. The problem is, one man's reduction is another man's drastic cut.

The tent really has to stay for now. What I would want to replace it with would be another tent and the least expensive candidate (it has to weigh less or there's not much point in the extra $$$) is the Eureka Spitfire. An attractive option is the BA Seedhouse SL. As you can see I am not fond of skeeters. Meaning that a full mesh wall is a must as well as a fly in the event that it might rain which has been a distinct possibility throughout the second half of this summer in the Northeast. The Fly Creek UL1 by Big Agnes is a nicer option, about $50 more. Hopefully I will evolve (meaning get fed up with hauling a tent around with me) my outdoor abilities to the point where a more minimalist shelter would do the trick for me but, for now, I am a tent guy. Freestanding does not seem as important as I had thought, but something double-wall for now fits the bill.

The sleeping pad is a very promising front for weight reduction. The main possibilities I've been checking out are the Z-Lite (inexpensive and possibly useful as an improvised back-sheet in frameless packs? or is it the Ridge Rest that does well for this?), the BA Air Core or Insulated Air Core 20x72 mummy, the Thermarest Pro Lite Regular or Pro Lite Plus Regular, getting pricey, and, finally, way up in nosebleed territory where I am not likely to shop, the NeoAir Regular. Except for the Pro Lite Plus all of these pads would deduct several ounces up to a whole pound (in the case of the Z-Lite or Ridge Rest). Even the ProLite Plus would shave off six ozs. while at the same time adding a half inch of thickness. The ProLite Regular, at the same thickness, would take off 14 ozs.

As far as the sleeping bag my trusty K-Mart $15 fleece bag only weighs a pound eight so it would take way more $$$ to get anything lighter. It's really a stop gap, costing very little, weighing very little, and putting of the sleeping bag selection process.

Packwise the Bean White Mountain really has to go. I call it the Vicious Circle Pack because it's six and a third pounds before you even put a spork in it and its spaciousness and durability invite loading it up with a whole packload of stuff.


See if you can get your gear into a tall kitchen garbage bag, that's about 3000cu in.

I like that idea. It'll also give me a sense of the challenge of having gear in a less structured container (an inkling of frameless versus frame pack).

[QUOTE][I just got back from a 175 mile section hike using the Pinnacle (little over 2 pounds) in replacement of a Kelty 5400 (6.5 pounds)./QUOTE]

That's what I'm talking about. Whenever you can drop 4.5 lbs, that's a good thing.

[skinewmexico]

The trash bag trick works well. I did that, so I could move an identical load from my Exos 46, to my Jam2, to my Mariposa Plus. And when looking at pads, you should also check out the POE Ether Thermo 6. Great pad. And I wouldn't give up on the Jam or Pinnacle because they're frameless, they just require a different skill set.

[Kerosene]

Back in 2000 I converted from a 7+ pound Dana Designs Terraplane to a Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone (3 lbs) to carry what was then about 29 pounds of Fall gear with 3 days of food. I'm now down to 26 pounds. Big difference on my feet at the end of a long day, even though the Terraplane was bomb-proof and fit me like a glove.

There are a lot of good packs out there besides Go-Lite. Besides Granite Gear, you might also check out Osprey and ULA.

[summermike]

With the GoLite packs it's all about how you pack them. In my Gust the tent poles formed the frame and the folded Z-rest was the back pad. It takes practice to get the load into the shape and ride you want.

My Gust handled 50 pounds comfortably and I think it was officially only supposed to carry 40. I cinched the hip belt well to make sure the weight stayed on my hips. The shoulder straps didn't carry weight, they merely kept the pack upright. Toy with that combination until you find what works for you.

I wish they still made the Gust. There was nothing like it for price, room and weight.

[Reid]

I will say, after reading pafarmboy's post, that when I had trouble with my Pinnacle bending, I wasn't smart enough to tighten the compression straps. I would also add that the Pinnacle is so big, I only use it in winter when I have a lot of bulky items. I also cut a piece of Coroplast to match the foam back panel, and that seems to help greatly with weight transfer.

Hold on, wait, what? What is coroplast?

[bigcranky]

There are a lot of options for an internal frame pack in the 2-3 pound range. Given your other gear, I would recommend that over a frameless ruck. You don't have to stick with the Golite brand, either -- there are good packs from Osprey, ULA, Six Moons Designs, Gossamer Gear, Granite Gear, and even REI. Packs in this class will support 35 or more pounds, and are good choices for hikers who want to lighten their load while still carrying some traditional gear (tent, self-inflating pad, etc.)

[Ratchet-SectionHiker]

I have the Go Lite Quest and I have been extremely happy with it. I have put over 100 miles on it this summer with no problems. My base load is usually around 17 lbs so the Quest is actually a bit big for my use but I do some winter hiking and wanted room for puffy items. I did carry 34 lbs for two days this summer and the pack didn't buckle or have any issues and was actually quite comfortable. I chose to move up to the aluminum frame to get a stiffer pack to try and help with lower back pain. I also wanted to recommend the Six Moons Designs Lunar Duo tent. Super light, super easy to set up and really a great tent for its weight. Of course it is only an option if you use hiking sticks.

[FamilyGuy]

Frameless packs work best with 20 pounds and under for most people. Can you do 30, 40, sure. It just won't be as comfortable as using a framed pack that fits you - I don't care what anyone says - there are physics as work here and realities of load transfer and stability.

[summermike]

I disagree. My Gust was fine with 50 pounds. The extra 4+ pounds on a pack with frame and padding didn't improve anything. I'd rather use that 4 pounds for something else.

[FamilyGuy]

Summermike - I sure it was 'fine.' But if I had given you a framed pack designed to carry 50 pounds like a McHale or an MR, you would not have felt the weight there at all.

You may disagree, but there are physiological facts that occur. Even BPL's Ryan Jordan agrees that the collapse of a frameless pack's ability to transfer and stabilize load is greatly reduced after 18-20 pounds. There is an excellent article on torsional load factors whereby 35 pounds in a frameless pack can force your body to counter balance through muscular force (torsional resistance) that is greatly reduced with a framed pack that fits. What happens is that slogging that frameless pack with 35 pounds results in far more energy expended and muscular fatigue. So the additional weight of a framed pack is easily offset by its ability to effectively transfer and minimize the effects of load.

Regardless, the whole idea of carrying a frameless pack is to then carry UL contents.

Even Andrew Skurka on a recent Alaska trip carried a Pinnacle mainbag on a framed external backpack as he was in the 35-40 pounds range.

But you knew all this right?

[Reid]

Summermike - I sure it was 'fine.' But if I had given you a framed pack designed to carry 50 pounds like a McHale or an MR, you would not have felt the weight there at all.

You may disagree, but there are physiological facts that occur. Even BPL's Ryan Jordan agrees that the collapse of a frameless pack's ability to transfer and stabilize load is greatly reduced after 18-20 pounds. There is an excellent article on torsional load factors whereby 35 pounds in a frameless pack can force your body to counter balance through muscular force (torsional resistance) that is greatly reduced with a framed pack that fits. What happens is that slogging that frameless pack with 35 pounds results in far more energy expended and muscular fatigue. So the additional weight of a framed pack is easily offset by its ability to effectively transfer and minimize the effects of load.

Regardless, the whole idea of carrying a frameless pack is to then carry UL contents.

Even Andrew Skurka on a recent Alaska trip carried a Pinnacle mainbag on a framed external backpack as he was in the 35-40 pounds range.

But you knew all this right?

I think all the packs they were testing collapsed over time regardless of weight too didn't they? It's crucial to carry UL items in a UL pack you are shore right about that. I've went back to a heavy 5lb frame pack and am well pleased.

[skinewmexico]

Hold on, wait, what? What is coroplast?

It's the plastic cardboard they make yard signs out of.

[bigcranky]

Regardless, the whole idea of carrying a frameless pack is to then carry UL contents.

This comment should be framed and hung in every outfitter.

[summermike]

Summermike - I sure it was 'fine.' But if I had given you a framed pack designed to carry 50 pounds like a McHale or an MR, you would not have felt the weight there at all.

What I posted has been my experience. I've used both and there wasn't a difference for me. As I said, I'd rather use that additional 4+ lbs for something other than empty pack weight or have a 4+ lb lighter total weight.

[XCskiNYC]

Candidate A: Granite Gear Nimbus Meridian (3 lbs 8 ozs, 60 liters (3800 cubic), 40 lbs carrying), $149 at Campmor.

Candidate B: Granite Gear Meridian Vapor (2 lbs 14 ozs, 52 liters (3200 cubic), 30 lbs carrying), $199 full retail at a number of outlets. One e-tailer called basegear.com http://www.basegear.com/coupon-codes-promotions-basegear.html seems to offer a 20% discount on any full-list item on your first order after you join there mailing list. The good news: price comes down to $160 and shipping is a freebie. The bad news: never heard of this company.

Candidate C: Golite Quest, 2008 model, 3 lbs 2 ozs, 72 liters (4,250 cubic), 45 lbs carrying, $131.25 from Zappos, free shipping but they'll probably put on the NY State/City 8.875% sales tax.

Candidate D: Golite Pursuit, 2008 model, 2 lbs 13 ozs, 51 liters (3100 cubic), 35 lbs carrying, $99.96 from Campmor.

Candidate E: Outdoor Products Pinnacle, 3 lbs 8 ozs, 3160 cubic, $39.97 from Campmor. http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___90429 . This is not a really serious candidate, kind of a Dennis Kucinich, but I'm throwing it out in case anybody has owned one and has feedback.


Golite doesn't give a denier rating for their pack material, so it's hard to rate the durability just from specs but overall it seems that the Granite Gear packs are pretty sturdy. Also (David Letterman Voice), could they call it Granite Gear if it wasn't solid as a rock? The two Granite Gear packs and the two Golites look to be different sizes of the same pack design in each company's line. Both have a single large main compartment which seems like a plus since you can boost waterproofing with one large garbage-bag liner. Both packs have the reliability factor of zipper-less access to the main compartment. The Granite Gears lack the handy feature of pockets on the hip belts, but they do sell them as an add-on. Or I guess you can just use your shorts pockets for your bug spray. Both packs have removable lids though the lid on the Granite Gear is specifically designed to function as a fanny pack. A nice feature but not super critical.

Candidates A and C have ample amounts of internal space. With my current packing list, the Bean White Mountain Pack, rated as having "4500 to 5700 cubic inches," is pretty well filled out. I'm thinking that going down to a 50 liter pack might make packing difficult (though probably not impossible -- and I'm pretty likely to at least swap my Pacific Outdoor Equipment/Campmor self-inflating sleeping pad for a Z-Lite which should reduce volume of gear).

Right now I'm leaning toward Candidate A (Hillary? Sorry, I just saw Haynes Johnson hyping his book about the 2008 campaign on C-Span). My pack weight is down to 34 lbs 9 ozs including water and about three days of food. That weight includes three half-pint boxes of milk (the kind that don't need refrigeration) which are about 9 ozs each so just swapping that for powdered milk could lop off over a pound. Plus, the actual weight of my LL Bean White Mtn. pack is 6 lbs 12 ozs. (6 ozs over Bean's number). So not counting the pack, the gear weight could get down to 27 lbs pretty easily.

The Granite Gear packs look to be better suited to hauling a substantial weight. OTOH, Candidate C looks like it can handle the weight I'm looking to give it.

Candidate B might be strong, depending on how sturdy Granite Gear packs are compared to the contending Golites. If it has a real edge on sturdiness, it might be worth the extra money. But considering that it's very similar in pack weight, volume, and carrying weight to Candidate D, it doesn't seem to make much sense to go with a retailer I don't know and to spend $60 over the D price.

Candidate D may be the come-from-behind winner. It didn't do well in the Iowa primaries, but after showing emotional vulnerability in NH...... Heh. Candidate D has the price advantage. It is probably STRONG ENOUGH for my intended hiking purposes (I've been thinking of using this pack as a travel pack too though and sturdiness never hurts if you're going to send anything through automated baggage handling machines). The size would, yes, be snug with my current packing list. Then again, it wouldn't hurt to have a motivation to trim off weight.

In fact, that never hurts.

[XCskiNYC]

Too bad you can't edit these:

One more comment on Candidate A, the Granite Gear Nimbus Meridian -- it's relatively heavy. Heavy enough to be a deal killer? Probably not. The extra weight probably somewhat reflects the slightly larger size as compared to, let's say, the Golite Pursuit and many other similar packs (3800 cubic inches versus 3100). The extra weight might also reflect a sturdier build quality. What do you think?

[FamilyGuy]

Just to add to the above, the Nimbus Meridian is designed to carry up to 40lbs in expected comfort. So for an additional few ounces, the carrying ability and load stability will outweight the others. In addition, depending on your size, there are 3 separate hipbelts and 4 shoulder harnesses to chose from. Include the fact that the torso size can be adjusted 5 sizes for the Regular and it would be very tough not to find the 'perfect' fit.

Regarding Golite, the Ripstop Nylon used with the Dyneema grid is 210D, which is what the Granite Gear packs use on the bottom and a few other places on the pack. However, the main body is 70d (unless the Nimbus Meridian is a 2009 model which has 100d).:-?

[XCskiNYC]

The NM has a much larger and more thoroughly padded hip-belt.

In fact, it's a bit ridiculous, IMHO, for Golite to rate the Quest up to 45 lbs. That much weight riding on that thin of a belt would likely result in a pretty sore hiker by day's end.

Of course, they do strive to keep weight down. And in a sense Golite succeeds, if you compare the cubic inches and carrying rating of the two bags versus their weights, five ounces more for the NM.

[Secret Squirrel]

I have a Go Lite Quest I will sell you. I never used it. I purchased it last winter. It is too big for my needs. Like many others I have discovered the bigger the pack, the more you put in it. The Quest will hold a ton of food and gear.

I use the Osprey Exos 58 and my wife uses the Pinnacle. We are both really pleased with our packs. I carry about 30-33lbs in my Exos and my wife about 25-28lbs in her Pinnacle.

The Quest is really nice. Send me a pm if interested in buying.

[FamilyGuy]

The NM has a much larger and more thoroughly padded hip-belt.

In fact, it's a bit ridiculous, IMHO, for Golite to rate the Quest up to 45 lbs. That much weight riding on that thin of a belt would likely result in a pretty sore hiker by day's end.

Of course, they do strive to keep weight down. And in a sense Golite succeeds, if you compare the cubic inches and carrying rating of the two bags versus their weights, five ounces more for the NM.

Actually, it is not the padding of a hipbelt that maximizes the hips being able to bear some or all of the weight. Instead it is the width. The Golite belt is just as wide (wider at the start) on their backcountry packs as the Nimbus line. Have a gander at Mchale Packs - they are thin but wide and some of Dan's packs can carry up to 100 pounds without belt sagging.

[XCskiNYC]

Actually, it is not the padding of a hipbelt that maximizes the hips being able to bear some or all of the weight. Instead it is the width. The Golite belt is just as wide (wider at the start) on their backcountry packs as the Nimbus line. Have a gander at Mchale Packs - they are thin but wide and some of Dan's packs can carry up to 100 pounds without belt sagging.

Thanks for that. The McHale packs look pretty cool but they seem a little out of my, gulp, price range.

I have had a chance to try out a Golite Quest in both of the two sizes. It just isn't super comfortable with the load it'll carry (25 to 28 lbs exclusive of the pack itself). I don't think I'm probably going to go with a Golite, at least not right now.

As you mentioned previously the GG is very good on fit. If I buy a pack right now it'll probably be the Nimbus Meridian. This is partly dictated by economics and retailer, as Campmor has it for $150 (as do several other retailers -- presumably it's the older model).

Another option is to just stick with my 6 lb 12 oz Bean White Mtn. pack. After having looked around at what's available in a lighter pack (well, almost all non-expedition packs are lighter than the Bean), I have at least come to appreciate the ample sub-storage areas of the pack. Those definitely make packing easier and save on stuff sacks.

[XCskiNYC]

Maybe this is a case of sticking with what you know, despite its drawbacks, but after checking out several packs I'm not feeling that motivated to leave behind my White Mountain Pack (even if it is several ounces heavier than the weight claimed by L.L. Bean).

In fact, I have already staged a formal apology ceremony to the pack for calling it a "Vicious Circle model.":p

Seriously, my pack weight now is close to 30 pounds, maybe 31 or 32 with a couple of days worth of food and 2 or 3 liters of water. That's certainly nowhere near UL but I guess it might be considered lightweight. The term doesn't really matter. What matters is that the weight is not unbearable; it doesn't dig furrows into my shoulders.

The Nimbus Meridian is a great pack but it seems like it might put a little too much into the weight-bearing infrastructure of the pack. The actual weight of the medium-sized pack is 4 lbs even while Granite Gear states it's 3#8. That's pretty hefty for a 3,800-c.i. pack which the manufacturer puts in the Ultralight category.

So for now I think I'm going to try to make things work out with the White Mountain. We may have to go to couples counseling, and 6#12 is pretty substantial, but, at least for the immediate term, we're still hitched.

[bigcranky]

Good choice, actually. In my experience you are better off working to reduce the weight of the stuff inside the pack first, before reducing the weight of the pack itself.

Good luck in working out the reconciliation.