Carrying a dagger while hiking

[G8R]

I was followed earlier this year by 2 guys who claimed they were lost and seeking the trailhead parking lot. They had no maps, no fluids, and smelled of alcohol.
I did have my 5" blade diving knife that I managed to get out of my pack and have available, especially when they dropped back behind me several times.
Anyway, I'm thinking about ordering a dagger (double edge) that has an almost 7" blade. States have different laws regarding carrying these knives and whether they should be made apparent (not concealed). I was thinking about attaching the sheath on my shoulder strap so as to be visible to someone and a deterrant.

Has anyone done this, or come across someone hiking that carried one?

[Pacific Tortuga]

http://grendelscave.net/armory/i/swzat1014/sw1014-01.jpg

Compliments of SGT.Rock. Also search "carrying a sword"

[msfirehiker]

check and see about if a expandable baton a.k.a. police baton , is allowed in your state you can also order a boot knife that fits comfortly, all if personal preference, I my self when hiking in certian areas of mississippi cary my 9mm but they are rough areas, i also hold a concealed permit but i dont like carrying all the extra weight but, when the other guy makes his move be ready, not dead or injured.
hope it helps

[take-a-knee]

Where did this happen?

[sheepdog]

I was followed earlier this year by 2 guys who claimed they were lost and seeking the trailhead parking lot. They had no maps, no fluids, and smelled of alcohol.
I did have my 5" blade diving knife that I managed to get out of my pack and have available, especially when they dropped back behind me several times.
Anyway, I'm thinking about ordering a dagger (double edge) that has an almost 7" blade. States have different laws regarding carrying these knives and whether they should be made apparent (not concealed). I was thinking about attaching the sheath on my shoulder strap so as to be visible to someone and a deterrant.

Has anyone done this, or come across someone hiking that carried one?
Stick with bear spray, it's multipurpose and easy to use. Works good on dogs, people and bears. Spray is good for multiple attackers and It works from a safe distance. Knives are up close and personal. Usually knives kill. Spray disables. Unless you are a good fighter a dagger may not be much help.

[Lone Wolf]

I was followed earlier this year by 2 guys who claimed they were lost and seeking the trailhead parking lot. They had no maps, no fluids, and smelled of alcohol.
I did have my 5" blade diving knife that I managed to get out of my pack and have available, especially when they dropped back behind me several times.
Anyway, I'm thinking about ordering a dagger (double edge) that has an almost 7" blade. States have different laws regarding carrying these knives and whether they should be made apparent (not concealed). I was thinking about attaching the sheath on my shoulder strap so as to be visible to someone and a deterrant.

Has anyone done this, or come across someone hiking that carried one?

get you one of these http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=86945&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15704&isFirearm=Y

[sheepdog]

I like this one. Ruger LCP (light compact pistol)
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger-LCP/Thumbs/DSC03240.jpg (http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger-LCP/DSC03240.jpg)

[Homer&Marje]

I carry my fixed blade para military sheath knife quite often. Does not weigh much but it is a very visible deterrent on my sternum strap.

BE WARNED: NOT MANY PEOPLE STOP TO TALK TO YOU:D:D

[WalkingStick75]

check and see about if a expandable baton a.k.a. police baton , is allowed in your state you can also order a boot knife that fits comfortly, all if personal preference, I my self when hiking in certian areas of mississippi cary my 9mm but they are rough areas, i also hold a concealed permit but i dont like carrying all the extra weight but, when the other guy makes his move be ready, not dead or injured.
hope it helps

Expandable baton or for the hikers that use them, hiking sticks. I have on occasion collapsed my sticks to prepare for a possible problem but their is more to it then just hitting somebody with a stick so unless you are trained on where and how to hit an expandable baton or hiking sticks used as a baton will have the same effect as picking up a stick.

[G8R]

Where did this happen?

Pinhoti Trail , Cheaha State Park in Alabama. I really just want a visible deterrant that says to someone, "hey, I don't want to **** with this guy".

[chefjason]

check and see about if a expandable baton a.k.a. police baton , is allowed in your state you can also order a boot knife that fits comfortly, all if personal preference, I my self when hiking in certian areas of mississippi cary my 9mm but they are rough areas, i also hold a concealed permit but i dont like carrying all the extra weight but, when the other guy makes his move be ready, not dead or injured.
hope it helps


Expandable baton or for the hikers that use them, hiking sticks. I have on occasion collapsed my sticks to prepare for a possible problem but their is more to it then just hitting somebody with a stick so unless you are trained on where and how to hit an expandable baton or hiking sticks used as a baton will have the same effect as picking up a stick.

The collapsable baton is called and ASP. They are NOTHING like a collapsable hiking stick and they are made from hardened steel and titanium with a 3oz steel ball on the end designed to crack bone. Hiking sticks are usually made of alluminum and I could bend one over my knee. ASP's are legal to carry in Georgia ( I don't know about other states) and are available at most fire arm specialty stores. They are expensive though. Plus, if you do not know how to properly yeild one, you could kill some one quickly. One strike to the skull with the ball end and you WILL see gray matter. And then you better kill the other guy too so there is no one to testify at the trial. Just sayin!

http://www.batondefense.com/

[Summit]

I consider my collapsed trekking pole (still about 18 inches long) to be my first line of defense. I'd take it over a knife any day and therefore only carry a small Leatherman Micra knife.

[Homer&Marje]

I remember a police demonstration at my school as a kid with one of those batons. they were showing how they can shatter bullet proof glass with like 5 quick strikes. Normal glass is easily broken with a half hearted swing.

Most people aren't afraid of them though, until they've been hit a few times

[chefjason]

I remember a police demonstration at my school as a kid with one of those batons. they were showing how they can shatter bullet proof glass with like 5 quick strikes. Normal glass is easily broken with a half hearted swing.

Most people aren't afraid of them though, until they've been hit a few times
If it takes "a few" hits to make them scared of it, they are more of a man than most! Them things HURT!

[vamelungeon]

I like this one. Ruger LCP (light compact pistol)
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger-LCP/Thumbs/DSC03240.jpg (http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger-LCP/DSC03240.jpg)
I carry the same thing made by Kel-Tec. Very small, very light. Lone Wolf's suggestion was a good one too. Revolvers are nearly foolproof.
Don't carry a firearm if you aren't willing to use it on someone, though. If you won't pull the trigger on another person it'll get taken away from you and maybe used on you. Don't carry

[vamelungeon]

Last message was posted before I was done..damn notebook!

Don't carry a gun expecting to bluff someone. Someone who's high might not get scared.

[chefjason]

I carry the same thing made by Kel-Tec. Very small, very light. Lone Wolf's suggestion was a good one too. Revolvers are nearly foolproof.
Don't carry a firearm if you aren't willing to use it on someone, though. If you won't pull the trigger on another person it'll get taken away from you and maybe used on you. Don't carry


Last message was posted before I was done..damn notebook!

Don't carry a gun expecting to bluff someone. Someone who's high might not get scared.

Don't carry a firearm unless you are TRAINED! And that don't mean going out in the woods behind your house and punching a few holes in some paper. Learing how to handle a firearm in a stressfull situation is crutial if you are planning to use it for life saving self defense. With nerves going crazy, adrenaline and sweat. If you don't know what you are doing you are most likely NOT going to hit what you are wanting to and might very well drop the darn thing from the recoil. FYI, I carry a featherweight hammerless .38. And I have attended two seperate law enforcement sponsered hand gun training classes.

[Old Grouse]

All good points, and it bears repeating that different states have different laws concerning batons, knives and guns. Bear spray is probably best for most people.

[chefjason]

All good points, and it bears repeating that different states have different laws concerning batons, knives and guns. Bear spray is probably best for most people.

So what is bear spray made of?

[Homer&Marje]

Concentrated Cayenne pepper

[yaduck9]

I would go with bear spry and a hiking staff.

I don't know which form of hell would be worse;

getting knifed or shot

or being stuck in a cell with a guy named "BUBBA"

:-?

[chefjason]

I would go with bear spry and a hiking staff.

I don't know which form of hell would be worse;

getting knifed or shot

or being stuck in a cell with a guy named "BUBBA"

:-?
Bubba aint as bad as t.v. makes him out to be! He just wants somebody to...love.

[Tuckahoe]

Glad to see some like minded folks when it comes to taking care of and protect themselves.

Personally I would not carry a dagger on the trail for personal defence. As already stated, its use requires allowing someone to get close enough to cause you harm. Additionally to effectively use a dagger, means much training. I folding knife I think is sufficent for this situation.

Consider a firearm. But also make sure that you are properly trained in its use as well as laws regarding defense. Get a concealed carry permit and know the laws for concealed carry (and concealed means concealed!). Know what states have reciprocity agreements with your state regarding concealed carry. Also in February 2010 the law will change regarding concealed carry in national parks to bring them into line with state laws.

I love my 1911, but I think I may be in the market for something smaller for the trail as well.

[chefjason]

i just looked up a bung of bear spray items. Just a glorified pepper spray. I have officer friends who have stories of folks walking right on thru pepper spray when they are drunk. Not high, just drunk. So I prefer high velocity led. :banana

[vamelungeon]

i just looked up a bung of bear spray items. Just a glorified pepper spray. I have officer friends who have stories of folks walking right on thru pepper spray when they are drunk. Not high, just drunk. So I prefer high velocity led. :banana
There is a certain percentage of people who are immune to the effects of pepper spray, I want to say 7% or so but I can't recall the exact number. If you know someone who can't seem to find food that's hot and spicy enough that's probably someone that pepper spray won't affect.

It affects me like I've stuck my head into a blazing blast furnace! When I was a police officer part of the certification to carry it was getting sprayed. One officer was unaffected by it.
The expandable baton, however, affected anyone that got accidentally hit during training. They really hurt! Like a knife, though, you've got to get in pretty close to use it.
Any of these things require some training and practice. I wouldn't rely on an aluminum trekking pole to deter someone who really wanted to do me harm, at least not without some training on how to most effectively deploy it.

[Pedaling Fool]

i just looked up a bung of bear spray items. Just a glorified pepper spray. I have officer friends who have stories of folks walking right on thru pepper spray when they are drunk. Not high, just drunk. So I prefer high velocity led. :banana
I got some stories of folks walking through high velocity lead...but we are talking about lowly simple criminals here, not to mention wimpy hikers:D

[OldStormcrow]

A much better alternative to pepper spray ( which is really good on tacos) is a can of backyard fogger carried in a water bottle holder on your pack belt. It has a range of about 20 feet and will stop any mammal on the North American continent in it's tracks. It's also legal almost anywhere except on an airplane and easily found at many stores. A knife in an untrained person's hands is just another weapon for their attacker to use against them. A young lady came into an outfitter store where I was working once and asked me which of the wicked and deadly looking knives in our knife case was the best for self defense. I told her to get the Swiss Army knife with the saw and whittling knife blade. That way she can cut down a small tree and sharpen it to a pointy end, thus making a 9 foot spear.....which would be about as safe for her as trying to do anything offensive or defensive with a knife in her young and untrained hands.

[Trigger Happy Jack]

Pinhoti Trail , Cheaha State Park in Alabama. I really just want a visible deterrant that says to someone, "hey, I don't want to **** with this guy".


Really!? That's crazy! I live right around there and have hiked all over that area! I will definitely have to be way more careful from now on!

[RITBlake]

I was followed earlier this year by 2 guys who claimed they were lost and seeking the trailhead parking lot. They had no maps, no fluids, and smelled of alcohol.
I did have my 5" blade diving knife that I managed to get out of my pack and have available, especially when they dropped back behind me several times.
Anyway, I'm thinking about ordering a dagger (double edge) that has an almost 7" blade. States have different laws regarding carrying these knives and whether they should be made apparent (not concealed). I was thinking about attaching the sheath on my shoulder strap so as to be visible to someone and a deterrant.

Has anyone done this, or come across someone hiking that carried one?

I also carry a dagger and shield in case I come upon some of the Kings horseman looking to collect taxes in the high country.

[Rocket Jones]

I just taunt them until they go away. And if they return then I taunt them a second time.

[chefjason]

A much better alternative to pepper spray ( which is really good on tacos) is a can of backyard fogger carried in a water bottle holder on your pack belt. It has a range of about 20 feet and will stop any mammal on the North American continent in it's tracks. It's also legal almost anywhere except on an airplane and easily found at many stores. A knife in an untrained person's hands is just another weapon for their attacker to use against them. A young lady came into an outfitter store where I was working once and asked me which of the wicked and deadly looking knives in our knife case was the best for self defense. I told her to get the Swiss Army knife with the saw and whittling knife blade. That way she can cut down a small tree and sharpen it to a pointy end, thus making a 9 foot spear.....which would be about as safe for her as trying to do anything offensive or defensive with a knife in her young and untrained hands.

I am going to try that!


I also carry a dagger and shield in case I come upon some of the Kings horseman looking to collect taxes in the high country.
This literally made me laugh out loud. Which gathered some attnetion from my kitchen. I Gave them the "mind your won damn business" look and went back to laughing.

[Summit]

Just do like Clint Eastwood in "Dirty Harry" and bring along your two friends . . . Smith and Wesson! :eek:

[Alli]

i just looked up a bung of bear spray items. Just a glorified pepper spray. I have officer friends who have stories of folks walking right on thru pepper spray when they are drunk. Not high, just drunk. So I prefer high velocity led. :banana
If you can't spell "lead" you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun. Just sayin'.

[Mags]

I suggest this gadget:

HOW TO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRgRussN858&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cracked.com%2Farticle%2F95_6-web-how-tos-that-are-apparently-supervillains%2F&feature=player_embedded

IN USE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahwy3-k5mEY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cracked.com%2Farticle%2F95_6-web-how-tos-that-are-apparently-supervillains%2F&feature=player_embedded

The second version is the way to go.


Multi-use, too.

[Jonnycat]

Wear a camo hat and black out a few of your front teeth; they'll think you're one of them and leave you alone. :D

[Summit]

I suggest this gadget:

HOW TO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRgRussN858&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cracked.com%2Farticle%2F95_6-web-how-tos-that-are-apparently-supervillains%2F&feature=player_embedded

IN USE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahwy3-k5mEY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cracked.com%2Farticle%2F95_6-web-how-tos-that-are-apparently-supervillains%2F&feature=player_embedded

The second version is the way to go.


Multi-use, too.Great, foil the attacker, burn down Nantahala National Forest! :eek: :D :p

Might be fun and entertaining fending off mosquitoes with it in camp though, until one bites you on the head and you flame all your own hair off! :eek:

[The Weasel]

In virtually all states, a dagger (or other sheath knife) that is sheathed can be considered a concealed weapon. That's not likely to happen for a typical sheath knife, particularly along a trail, but a dagger or other bladed instrument that is designed as a weapon is likely to get "CCW" treatment if you meet a LEO, including Law Enforcement Rangers and most NFS Rangers. The same is the case with pistols, and some states do not grant reciprocal rights to what may be your home state.

Purely defensive items like bear spray are not going to get you in trouble, and are probably more effective. If you get into a close fight, you're as likely to be injured as others.

TW

[chefjason]

If you can't spell "lead" you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun. Just sayin'.

If you can't imagine someone having a type-o cause they are just chit chatting and not wrinting a novel to be published, maybe you shouldn't be online. just sayin':eek:

[winger]

I always thought one of these was cool, but its pricey, almost as much as I paid for my Ruger LCP (which I do carry).
http://www.crawfordknives.com/SURVIVAL%20STAFF%20PAGE%201.htm

[Two Speed]

. . . So I prefer high velocity led. :banana

If you can't spell "lead" you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun. Just sayin'.
If you can't imagine someone having a type-o cause they are just chit chatting and not wrinting a novel to be published, maybe you shouldn't be online. just sayin':eek:Yeah, everyone knows all led's emit high velocity light. Sheesh!

[chefjason]

Yeah, everyone knows all led's emit high velocity light. Sheesh!

Funny. See a mod stepped in and made a post kinda sorta mocking both of us. This way, he/she can let us know that the thread is being watched and to not get too agressive, while not REALLY layin' the smack down! Tactfull. i like it two speed. Even though you are a Cobb countian aka yuppie house wife with a full size SUV. :D

[Mags]

Great, foil the attacker, burn down Nantahala National Forest! :eek: :D :p



This made me chuckle quite loudly.

Yes, burning down the forest would stop any would be attackers...but it may attract the rangers. :D

[vamelungeon]

In virtually all states, a dagger (or other sheath knife) that is sheathed can be considered a concealed weapon. That's not likely to happen for a typical sheath knife, particularly along a trail, but a dagger or other bladed instrument that is designed as a weapon is likely to get "CCW" treatment if you meet a LEO, including Law Enforcement Rangers and most NFS Rangers. The same is the case with pistols, and some states do not grant reciprocal rights to what may be your home state.

Purely defensive items like bear spray are not going to get you in trouble, and are probably more effective. If you get into a close fight, you're as likely to be injured as others.

TW

Wrong. If the knife is in a sheath on your belt, it's visible, not concealed.

Anyone carrying a firearms should know when it's legal to do so. Some state DO grant reciprocal rights. In some places it's illegal to be armed at all, in some places it's not. It's up to the individual to find out what's what.

Spraying someone with pepper spray IS assault & battery, at least here in Virginia. I've issued many warrants for people who've sprayed someone. Any force used against another person should be justified or not done at all.

[sheepdog]

So what is bear spray made of?
distilled bears. the concentrated bears are very mean and will take you out of commision.:D

[sheepdog]

I also carry a dagger and shield in case I come upon some of the Kings horseman looking to collect taxes in the high country.
Rookie, a bow and arrow is much better. Do you like green tights??

[sheepdog]

Wear a camo hat and black out a few of your front teeth; they'll think you're one of them and leave you alone. :D
And carry a banjo

[The Weasel]

I also carry a dagger and shield in case I come upon some of the Kings horseman looking to collect taxes in the high country.

Yeah, fine. And then you come to the Black Knight and the sumbich just doesn't stop.

TW

[chefjason]

Yeah, fine. And then you come to the Black Knight and the sumbich just doesn't stop.

TW

Just do yourself a favor and go fo rthe decap out right. Don't bother with the arms and legs.

[The Weasel]

Wrong. If the knife is in a sheath on your belt, it's visible, not concealed.

Anyone carrying a firearms should know when it's legal to do so. Some state DO grant reciprocal rights. In some places it's illegal to be armed at all, in some places it's not. It's up to the individual to find out what's what.

Spraying someone with pepper spray IS assault & battery, at least here in Virginia. I've issued many warrants for people who've sprayed someone. Any force used against another person should be justified or not done at all.

V----

While in Virginia, it might not be considered "concealed," in other states any knife, other than a hunting knife, in a scabbard/sheath is considered "concealed" unless the entire blade is exposed. (Many/most states forbid carrying daggers, swords and other blades longer than 3 inches or so even if in the open).

As I said before, in many states sheathed blades are 'concealed weapons' and will be subject to arrest.

TW

[The Weasel]

Just do yourself a favor and go fo rthe decap out right. Don't bother with the arms and legs.

Yeah, you'd think that works. It doesn't. He just keeps standing there flailing away. Sheesh.

TW

[Not Sunshine]

This is so sad to me! Maybe I'm completely ignorant, but I LOVE being out in the woods - and it's terrible that there were threatening people that the original post-er ran into - but the thought of having ALL my fellow hikers agreeing to carry a concealed weapon!?? I realize you have to watch out for yourself, but I'm saddened by the fact that we all seem to be in agreement that we need to carry a gun!

Maybe I would feel differently if I were attacked, but I can't help but remind everyone what the end result was of the original post - they were weirded out and felt defensive, but got away safely. I agree with the hiking poles and I agree with the bear spray (although I would be afraid of the attacked EVER catching up with me)....I just cannot carry a gun....

[chefjason]

This is so sad to me! Maybe I'm completely ignorant, but I LOVE being out in the woods - and it's terrible that there were threatening people that the original post-er ran into - but the thought of having ALL my fellow hikers agreeing to carry a concealed weapon!?? I realize you have to watch out for yourself, but I'm saddened by the fact that we all seem to be in agreement that we need to carry a gun!

Maybe I would feel differently if I were attacked, but I can't help but remind everyone what the end result was of the original post - they were weirded out and felt defensive, but got away safely. I agree with the hiking poles and I agree with the bear spray (although I would be afraid of the attacked EVER catching up with me)....I just cannot carry a gun....

In my situation, the comfortabel with guns cause I have been around them since I was an infant. My mother worked for the sheriffs dpt in rural Arkansas and she had guns all over the place! I was taught how to fire a pistol when I was 5. Not that I advocate that at all! My folks were drunken idiots and had no clue how stupid they were being,due to Miller Low Life. So I would guess that all of the folks that say they have/carry weapons, are jsut quite comfortable with them. I do not carry one because I am paranoid of being attacked. I just carry one for peice of mind. Kinda like taking my cell phone with me. yes you may mock me for that.

[Tuckahoe]

This is so sad to me! Maybe I'm completely ignorant, but I LOVE being out in the woods - and it's terrible that there were threatening people that the original post-er ran into - but the thought of having ALL my fellow hikers agreeing to carry a concealed weapon!?? I realize you have to watch out for yourself, but I'm saddened by the fact that we all seem to be in agreement that we need to carry a gun!

Maybe I would feel differently if I were attacked, but I can't help but remind everyone what the end result was of the original post - they were weirded out and felt defensive, but got away safely. I agree with the hiking poles and I agree with the bear spray (although I would be afraid of the attacked EVER catching up with me)....I just cannot carry a gun....

Smak, please forgive me if I may seem harsh in my response to you, please believe me when I say that I am a nice person.

You have a god given right to not be threatened, assaulted or molested and to be able to defend yourself when threatened, beyong that right, I also believe that only you are responsible for your own personal defense. No one has the responsibility to protect you and infact the USSC has has ruled that local government and LEO agencies are not obligated to protect you in the event of an assault upon you. The reality too, is that when seconds count, the police are minutes away, and all they can do is clean up the mess.

I love the wilderness, have always loved camping and hiking. I live in a great community with people that are great to be around. But that fact does not change the reality that there are evil people in the world and you must be prepared for that fact and should be prepared to defend youself.

I have never understood those who are willing to surrender their right and respnsibility to personal defense to someone else. I have no issue either with anyone who takes the time to arms themselves, receives proper training and is issued a concealed carry permit. I applaud them!

[Tuckahoe]

V----

While in Virginia, it might not be considered "concealed," in other states any knife, other than a hunting knife, in a scabbard/sheath is considered "concealed" unless the entire blade is exposed. (Many/most states forbid carrying daggers, swords and other blades longer than 3 inches or so even if in the open).

As I said before, in many states sheathed blades are 'concealed weapons' and will be subject to arrest.

TW

Only refering to Virginia, the law is that a weapon is concealed when its true nature is hidden.



Virginia Code Section 18.2-308 - Prohibits the carrying of any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or any weapon of like kind by any person hidden from common observance about his person. Any of the enumerated weapons shall be seized and forfeited to the Commonwealth. A weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.


Regardless, it is up to the individual to understand what the state and local laws are where they intend to travel.

Fortunately Virginia is an open carry state.

[vamelungeon]

Only refering to Virginia, the law is that a weapon is concealed when its true nature is hidden.



Regardless, it is up to the individual to understand what the state and local laws are where they intend to travel.

Fortunately Virginia is an open carry state.
You edited that. It says "hidden from common observation." Nothing about "when it's true nature is hidden."

http://198.246.135.1/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

I suggest people follow my link and read it for themselves.

[weary]

I was followed earlier this year by 2 guys who claimed they were lost and seeking the trailhead parking lot. They had no maps, no fluids, and smelled of alcohol.
I did have my 5" blade diving knife that I managed to get out of my pack and have available, especially when they dropped back behind me several times.
Anyway, I'm thinking about ordering a dagger (double edge) that has an almost 7" blade. States have different laws regarding carrying these knives and whether they should be made apparent (not concealed). I was thinking about attaching the sheath on my shoulder strap so as to be visible to someone and a deterrant.

Has anyone done this, or come across someone hiking that carried one?
I hope not. Hikers who do that would scare away everyone on the trail. They would lose the friendly communication with other hikers that most of us enjoy on our walks north. At the very least someone wearing an exposed double-bladed dagger would be viewed as a paranoid nut, or someone dangerous to be feared.

Well, upon further consideration, if I came someone equipped with an exposed dagger, I would just laugh.

Weary

[rickb]

get you one of these http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=86945&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15704&isFirearm=Y

Good choice.

[Hikes in Rain]

Folks, do you want a real stopper, that will freeze any attacker, human or otherwise, on this continent in it's tracks? One that's completely legal? Get yourself a nose-spray bottle and dump the contents. Refill with as pure ammonia as you can get. Distill it from the weak soapy solutions for cleaning, if you need to; it's pretty easy. Sprayed in an attacker's face and he's down, for a long time, I don't care how big or ferocious he is.

Just don't forget and use it yourself!

[Tuckahoe]

You edited that. It says "hidden from common observation." Nothing about "when it's true nature is hidden."

http://198.246.135.1/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

I suggest people follow my link and read it for themselves.

Umm please tell me what did I edit? I pulled that directly from the Virginia State Police website. And read closely your own link as it says the following --


§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

[DAJA]

Guns, swords, asps, and daggers.... My friends to the south, you're all paranoid.... Common sense is all you need... If that fails you, no weapon will be readily available enought to help you....

Seems like the OP had their wits about them so not to become a victim...

Be aware, open and friendly, and confict will seek out those who have already deemed themselves a victim living in fear...

Those who believe that "if you want peice prepare for war" clearly lack any sense of history...

[Lone Wolf]

Folks, do you want a real stopper, that will freeze any attacker, human or otherwise, on this continent in it's tracks? One that's completely legal? Get yourself a nose-spray bottle and dump the contents. Refill with as pure ammonia as you can get. Distill it from the weak soapy solutions for cleaning, if you need to; it's pretty easy. Sprayed in an attacker's face and he's down, for a long time, I don't care how big or ferocious he is.

Just don't forget and use it yourself!

huh? any attacker needs to be killed. screw a bunch of ammonia. high speed hot lead is the answer

[vamelungeon]

Umm please tell me what did I edit? I pulled that directly from the Virginia State Police website. And read closely your own link as it says the following --
You're right, it does say that and I apologize.

[Tuckahoe]

You're right, it does say that and I apologize.

Thank you for posting the actual like to the law. All's cool!:sun

[Tuckahoe]

LINK! not like. There really needs to be an edit button.

[Rocket Jones]

Guns, swords, asps, and daggers.... My friends to the south, you're all paranoid.... Common sense is all you need... If that fails you, no weapon will be readily available enought to help you....

Seems like the OP had their wits about them so not to become a victim...

Be aware, open and friendly, and confict will seek out those who have already deemed themselves a victim living in fear...

Those who believe that "if you want peice prepare for war" clearly lack any sense of history...

Nonsense. It takes two to have a peace, only one to create conflict. I reserve the right to defend myself if the situation calls for it.

Common sense and awareness are absolutely the first requirement, but if things move to the edge of your control, then you absolutely must take action to bring it back to where you are in charge of the situation. Sometimes being obviously prepared is enough deterrence (a hiking staff works much better than trekking poles for this, especially if readied defensively), because someone with bad intent will rethink and look for easier prey.

Your good intentions don't mean squat if the other is looking for trouble. For your sense of history, see WWII: Chamberlain and Hitler.

Oops... :eek:

[Lone Wolf]

There really needs to be an edit button.
put up the $$$

[TD55]

Serious, isn't carrying a knife, especially a big one, in some highly visible way as a deterrent a kind of dumb a$$ thing to do? Not making judgement on whether a knife should be carried, or what kind to carry or anything like that. Just sayin' to carry one for the purpose of deterence is dumb.

[Lone Wolf]

Serious, isn't carrying a knife, especially a big one, in some highly visible way as a deterrent a kind of dumb a$$ thing to do?

yeah, pretty much. was gonna point that out much earlier but what the hay? :cool:

[Old Grouse]

LINK! not like. There really needs to be an edit button.

As LW says, if you become a donor to WB - which you should do anyway - you are then able to edit your posts, among other things.

[MikenSalem]

I usually hike alone and so far haven't had any problems. I'm also an "A" personality and not real small, though I'm getting a little old. My suggestion is never hike alone, even if you are alone. Lie about it; "My buddy should be here in a minute Did you see a big fellow up ahead of me? He must have ducked into the bushes, he likes to sneak, Ex war vet type - plays commando. Son of a gun's been scarin' me for two days"
Try and keep people in view or maneuver them to walk in front of you.
The hard part is most people think defensively cause there nice people. Nice people die defending themselves. Me I'd be more worried about killing an innocent person than being killed cause you gotta strike first. Serial killers or Ned's banjo loving friends aren't going to knock a wood chip off your shoulder and tell you you're about to be off'ed. You'll just get to find out personally if this life is really all there was to it, are you ready?

[Wise Old Owl]

Serious, isn't carrying a knife, especially a big one, in some highly visible way as a deterrent a kind of dumb a$$ thing to do? Not making judgement on whether a knife should be carried, or what kind to carry or anything like that. Just sayin' to carry one for the purpose of deterence is dumb.


Hell lets try and top that - did anyone notice it's not possible to buy a knife longer than your privates?:eek:

[Summit]

LINK! not like. There really needs to be an edit button.There is. It costs $10/yr! :)

OK, no wrath from the owners or mods . . . I know you get more than that for a membership . . . and I ain't begrudgin' at all. :)

[SouthMark]

A local police officer suggested wasp & hornet spray instead of pepper spray. He said it works up to 25 feet away and blinds the assailant (person or dog).

[weary]

LINK! not like. There really needs to be an edit button.
There is one. Just send $10 bucks to help defray the cost of this site. Go to home and follow instructions.

[The Weasel]

A local police officer suggested wasp & hornet spray instead of pepper spray. He said it works up to 25 feet away and blinds the assailant (person or dog).

It is also poisonous and possibly deadly, and may result in charges against you as well.

TW

[Reid]

I've got that kel-tec pf9. Don't get stabbed in a gunfight yall!

[Reid]

Hell lets try and top that - did anyone notice it's not possible to buy a knife longer than your privates?:eek:

I know what your talking about. Not quite sure of the law but I believe it pertains mostly to concealed weapons. I believe it was actually writtin in with the gun laws about the blades being no more than 2 inches long, it use to be 3. Still again, not exactly sure. You can buy a machete at wal-mart though and can still purchase some otherwise illegal "weapons" at army navy.

[Two Speed]

Funny. See a mod stepped in and made a post kinda sorta mocking both of us. This way, he/she can let us know that the thread is being watched and to not get too agressive, while not REALLY layin' the smack down! Tactfull. i like it two speed. Even though you are a Cobb countian aka yuppie house wife with a full size SUV. :DNo, not my forum so my participation here is strictly as a smart ass. Anyway, gotta drop the kids off at school and then meet the girls for brunch.

[chefjason]

A local police officer suggested wasp & hornet spray instead of pepper spray. He said it works up to 25 feet away and blinds the assailant (person or dog).

I sure would like to meet that LEO. Cause as far as I know, using a caustic chemical on another human is a felony. Capsicum is not a caustic chemical. I believe another member posted that using pepper spray on a person is still concidered assalt, but I doubt it is as serious as attempeted murder for using a known poision!

[Lone Wolf]

I sure would like to meet that LEO. Cause as far as I know, using a caustic chemical on another human is a felony.

who cares if the creep is trying to assault, abduct or rape you.

[chefjason]

who cares if the creep is trying to assault, abduct or rape you.

That is why i carry my .38! If a creep is really attmepting to harm me, I am not going to give him the opportunity to sue my six months later for his permanent eye damage! i am going to put two in the chest and one in the head, just like I was taught. Dead men don't testify.

[Wise Old Owl]

Ok here we go 3,....2,.....1......

http://www.defendu.com/gun_fistfight.htm

[Lone Wolf]

Ok here we go 3,....2,.....1......

http://www.defendu.com/gun_fistfight.htm

yeah so? the point?

[chefjason]

yeah so? the point?

Ditto. What's the point? both guys defended themselves. Charges were MADE!!, but no conviction. I myself have had charges brought against me, only to be latter dropped because they were unjust. All is rightin the world. The end.

[saimyoji]

Yeah, everyone knows all led's emit high velocity light. Sheesh!

geak allert :D

[Homer&Marje]

I think the point is that 1 person in a million might need a gun on the AT. I thought this was a knife thread?

I've never used my knife for anything but cutting cheese. And myself, once:D

But it's there. But if someone seriously attacks me with no gun or a knife of some sort...I'm droppin pack and kickin your ass with my hands. Much more fun

[chefjason]

I think the point is that 1 person in a million might need a gun on the AT. I thought this was a knife thread?

I've never used my knife for anything but cutting cheese. And myself, once:D

But it's there. But if someone seriously attacks me with no gun or a knife of some sort...I'm droppin pack and kickin your ass with my hands. Much more fun
A pugilist are ya? Hit 'em with the ole 1-2! Stick and move! Use the jab Rock!! Use the jab!!

[weary]

Ok here we go 3,....2,.....1......

http://www.defendu.com/gun_fistfight.htm
Only one of the three examples pertains to trails, but all are very interesting and informative.

The examples strengthen my long standing belief that deadly weapons are more trouble than they are worth. And even when confronted with an angry, agitated person, even a legal weapon should be used with great discretion -- regardless of what nonsense is told in a training class. Sure "dead men can't testify." But if you turn out to be the only one carrying and still living after a confrontation you are very likely facing an expensive legal fight and possibly jail.

Weary

[Homer&Marje]

I'm more likely going to clap your ears jab two fingers into your throat while I gouge at your eye with one or more of my thumbs.

If you fall over I'm going to stomp my feet anywhere near your head or if I have my hiking stick I'll hit you in the face and neck as many times as I can until you decide that ****ing with me was a bad idea.

I don't have much to worry about, people think I am the crazy person in the woods.:D RUN GET THE GUNS MYRTLE!!!!

[chefjason]

Only one of the three examples pertains to trails, but all are very interesting and informative.

The examples strengthen my long standing belief that guns are more trouble than they are worth. And even when confronted with an angry, agitated person, even a legal gun should be used with great discretion -- regardless of what nonsense is told in a gun training class. Sure "dead men can't testify." But if you turn out to be the only one carrying and still living after a confrontation you are very likely facing an expensive legal fight and possibly jail.

Weary
Rather spend a few months in court than have my wife and children attend my funeral.

[RITBlake]

I'm more likely going to clap your ears jab two fingers into your throat while I gouge at your eye with one or more of my thumbs.

If you fall over I'm going to stomp my feet anywhere near your head or if I have my hiking stick I'll hit you in the face and neck as many times as I can until you decide that ****ing with me was a bad idea.



Big talk, generally speaking attackers are standing still giving you a chance to do any of what you described.

[SouthMark]

I sure would like to meet that LEO. Cause as far as I know, using a caustic chemical on another human is a felony. Capsicum is not a caustic chemical. I believe another member posted that using pepper spray on a person is still concidered assalt, but I doubt it is as serious as attempeted murder for using a known poision!

I stand corrected. Just shoot the bastard instead. Using a gun on another person is not a felony?

[chefjason]

I stand corrected. Just shoot the bastard instead. Using a gun on another person is not a felony?

Not in self defense it's not.

[chefjason]

This is quickly turning into a left verses right thread that I no longer want part of. To the OP, glad you were unharmed and hope you got the answers you were looking for. To anyone who wants to continue debating the issue with me, tough. I'm done.

[SouthMark]

Not in self defense it's not.

But using the wasp spray in self defense is. I guess shooting would definitely be the way to go.

[Dogwood]

Sounds like this post belongs with others who want to bring slingshots, handguns, and crossbows to the trail.

Wild Wild West?

[sheepdog]

A pugilist are ya? Hit 'em with the ole 1-2! Stick and move! Use the jab Rock!! Use the jab!!
I can't see........ cut me micky

[sheepdog]

Rather spend a few months in court than have my wife and children attend my funeral.
Yep, better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

[sheepdog]

This is quickly turning into a left verses right thread that I no longer want part of. To the OP, glad you were unharmed and hope you got the answers you were looking for. To anyone who wants to continue debating the issue with me, tough. I'm done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-hc79-tAiU&feature=related :D

[Mags]

But using the wasp spray in self defense is.


Anything that gets rid of bad metal-hair bands from the 80s is all right by me...


http://www.heavyharmonies.com/bandpics/wasp.jpg

[sheepdog]

Does wasp spray only work on "white anglo saxon protestants?"

[Reid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMLIOtBLqoU

[Homer&Marje]

You might run into a mooching ultra lighter though. In which case....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01NHcTM5IA4

[sheepdog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMLIOtBLqoU
one of my favorites.

[Not Sunshine]

It is also poisonous and possibly deadly, and may result in charges against you as well.

TW


Yes, but aren't we tall talking about "defense". Isn't defense a resonable excuse. I hardly believe if you're truly in fear of your life, spraying someone with wasp spray in "self defense" would be deemed "assault".

So - does anyone have a recommendation for light-hiker-sized bear spray or wasp spray? Those wasp spray cans are heavy!

[Two Speed]

geak allert :DOh, look, a wannabe geek. :p

[saimyoji]

Oh, look, a wannabe geek. :p

yuul notise i spelt alert wrong tu. :-?

[SouthMark]

Yes, but aren't we tall talking about "defense". Isn't defense a resonable excuse. I hardly believe if you're truly in fear of your life, spraying someone with wasp spray in "self defense" would be deemed "assault".

So - does anyone have a recommendation for light-hiker-sized bear spray or wasp spray? Those wasp spray cans are heavy!

Yes we are talking about defense but unfortunately if you use wasp spray or bear spray you will be sued for everything you own by the assailant. Better to just shoot him.

[Two Speed]

yuul notise i spelt alert wrong tu. :-?I did, but I figured it was a waste of time to try to teach you how to spell more than one word at a time.

Anyway, what's your weapon of choice for high speed led? Light saber, possibly? Photon blaster? Personally I like my Mr. Magoo night light.

[saimyoji]

I did, but I figured it was a waste of time to try to teach you how to spell more than one word at a time.


ok, mom...


Anyway, what's your weapon of choice for high speed led? Light saber, possibly? Photon blaster? Personally I like my Mr. Magoo night light.


http://www.thecustomsabershop.com/

[Two Speed]

No, no, like this:
I did, but I figured it was a waste of time to try to teach you how to spell more than one word at a time.ok, mom...
Anyway, what's your weapon of choice for high speed led? Light saber, possibly? Photon blaster? Personally I like my Mr. Magoo night light.No, you silly berk, everyone knows only dweebs use a Mr. Magoo night light. Real hikers, like me use one of these (http://www.thecustomsabershop.com/).

[G8R]

As the originator of this thread and after reading well over 100 posts, it's easy to see that there are many opinions - guns, machetes, knives, pepper spray & even ammonia.

I don't like guns mixed with hiking - it just seems to take some of the enjoyment out of it. So, for me, guns are out. I felt vulnerable that day and it has stuck with me. For me, the first priority is to deter, or change the mind, of anyone contemplating robbing, assaulting, or r8ping me. I don't see pepper spray doing it. If they have a gun, I lose and they can take all my money, pack, etc. If not, they are faced with the possibility of getting some pretty severe cuts or even stabbed. I don't plan to have the blade exposed, it would be sheathed. But, as I said earlier, the possible attacker could readily see it and know that it's not just an Old Timer under there. I've passed a few hikers with rambo style knives and didn't view them as freaks, but rather someone interested in protecting themselves.

I'm not naive and realize there are some bad people out there willing to take advantage of people in remote areas.

Just my $.02 . . .

[Homer&Marje]

Welcome to the sheathed knife carriers:D

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/7/8/4/6/jackaranda.jpg

12" fixed blade with nylon sheath and nylon rope handle....think I already posted the pic of it "en use"

[Mags]

I'm not naive and realize there are some bad people out there willing to take advantage of people in remote areas.

Just my $.02 . . .

To be honest, I feel a bit safer in remote areas than say downtown Denver at 2am. :)

[take-a-knee]

To be honest, I feel a bit safer in remote areas than say downtown Denver at 2am. :)

Exactly, I often carry a pistol while hiking. Not because I ever think I'll need it on the trail, but because I have to drive home through Atlanta. Leaving it in a car at the trail head is irresponsible.

[G8R]

I think I'll get tgis Rambo Survival knife with a 10" blade as a "multi-use tool":

http://www.northamericanknives.com/files/1788248/uploaded/MC-RB2SS%20-%20Rambo%20Knife%201st%20Blood%20Part%20II%20Sylve ster%20Stallone.jpg

[chefjason]

Exactly, I often carry a pistol while hiking. Not because I ever think I'll need it on the trail, but because I have to drive home through Atlanta. Leaving it in a car at the trail head is irresponsible.

Just don't stop in TechWood and you you should be fine. but that means skipping The Varsity!!:eek:

[The Weasel]

Yes, but aren't we tall talking about "defense". Isn't defense a resonable excuse. I hardly believe if you're truly in fear of your life, spraying someone with wasp spray in "self defense" would be deemed "assault".

So - does anyone have a recommendation for light-hiker-sized bear spray or wasp spray? Those wasp spray cans are heavy!

"Self-defense" is a very unreliable defense in criminal cases, and not nearly as good as laypeople and television would like to believe. Use of a deadly weapon as a "defense" to a perceived assault (and wasp spray, unlike bear spray, may well qualify as 'deadly' to people because of its chemical/caustic nature) can be result in charges against BOTH the attacker and the "victim". Despite the testosterone-hurling here, no police officer in the USA is going to really recommend wasp spray as a "defense", so PLEASE don't rely on some anonymous "I heard that wasp spray is OK to use" statement.

Even "bear spray" and "pepper spray" might not be legally carried in some places, because even the less-dangerous contents they have can be dangerous and potentially deady. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray#In_the_United_States

The best defense to an assault is to run. That's not as "manly" or "exciting" as visions of being Jack Bauer, but it's safer and less likely to result in injury, as well as minimizing legal action against you. And if you can't run because you're being held down, well, sprays aren't going to help you much.

Or you can go the testosterone route and, when you are also arrested, help keep attorneys like me employed. We'll do our best for you, but if we lose, well, we get to go home, even if you don't.

TW

[TD55]

As the originator of this thread and after reading well over 100 posts, it's easy to see that there are many opinions - guns, machetes, knives, pepper spray & even ammonia.

I don't like guns mixed with hiking - it just seems to take some of the enjoyment out of it. So, for me, guns are out. I felt vulnerable that day and it has stuck with me. For me, the first priority is to deter, or change the mind, of anyone contemplating robbing, assaulting, or r8ping me. I don't see pepper spray doing it. If they have a gun, I lose and they can take all my money, pack, etc. If not, they are faced with the possibility of getting some pretty severe cuts or even stabbed. I don't plan to have the blade exposed, it would be sheathed. But, as I said earlier, the possible attacker could readily see it and know that it's not just an Old Timer under there. I've passed a few hikers with rambo style knives and didn't view them as freaks, but rather someone interested in protecting themselves.

I'm not naive and realize there are some bad people out there willing to take advantage of people in remote areas.

Just my $.02 . . .

IMO you may be mistaken on several of your assesments.
You assume that a potential attacker will be intimidated by the knife you are displaying. In some cases that may be true. In other cases you may in fact be inviting trouble. The bad guy might see your knife and decide that he (or they) would like to have it as thier own. If he is an experienced bad guy, he will know how to attack you and neutralize your weapon. If given the choice between a knife or a large piece of lumber such as a hefty club, I might take the club, especially if I thought the knife welder was not a trained knife fighter. Also, a knife welder would have little chance against two or more bad guys that knew what they were doing.
IMO, you are wrong about the pepper spray. It is far more intimidating to bad guys than you may think. True, you hear storys about wild people on drugs that seem ineffected by the spray, but that almost always is in regards to cops trying to SUBDUE the person. You won't be trying to subdue an assailant. You will be trying to incapacitate them while you get away or effect further incapacitating measures.
Pepper spray is more intimidating than a knife to a bad guy, IMO. It's also helpful against dogs. Multiple use

[Summit]

I think I'll get tgis Rambo Survival knife with a 10" blade as a "multi-use tool":

http://www.northamericanknives.com/files/1788248/uploaded/MC-RB2SS%20-%20Rambo%20Knife%201st%20Blood%20Part%20II%20Sylve ster%20Stallone.jpgYeah, you can use it to build a cabin for the night! :D

[Rockhound]

I believe a cache of weapons should be priority 1 on any hikers gear list. Make sure you have at least 1 gun with plenty of ammo, 2 throwing daggers, 4 throwing stars, a blowgun, a mace, a battle axe, a cross bow and some low yield explosives. Then and only then should you worry about silly things like food, water, shelter, sleeping bag etc....No hiker should ever go into the woods unless they are heavily armed.

[G8R]

IMO you may be mistaken on several of your assesments.
You assume that a potential attacker will be intimidated by the knife you are displaying. In some cases that may be true. In other cases you may in fact be inviting trouble. The bad guy might see your knife and decide that he (or they) would like to have it as thier own. If he is an experienced bad guy, he will know how to attack you and neutralize your weapon. If given the choice between a knife or a large piece of lumber such as a hefty club, I might take the club, especially if I thought the knife welder was not a trained knife fighter. Also, a knife welder would have little chance against two or more bad guys that knew what they were doing.
IMO, you are wrong about the pepper spray. It is far more intimidating to bad guys than you may think. True, you hear storys about wild people on drugs that seem ineffected by the spray, but that almost always is in regards to cops trying to SUBDUE the person. You won't be trying to subdue an assailant. You will be trying to incapacitate them while you get away or effect further incapacitating measures.
Pepper spray is more intimidating than a knife to a bad guy, IMO. It's also helpful against dogs. Multiple use

I knew someone on here would analyze my opinions. In this case, MY opinion is what makes ME most comfortable.

Each of us viewing/responding to this thread has our own beliefs of what would work best for us. If the bad guy you speak of decides he wants my knife with a 10" blade, I would think that he would expect to get, at the very least, some substantial lacerations. If he wins, great for him, I did what I could. Present 100 "bad guys" that are either not armed or armed with a similar weapon, and I'll bet you 80 of them would pass on me after seeing such a weapon and continue to seek out someone without such a defense. The other 20, confrontation is an unavoidable action and the least I can do is get a few shots in before I go down.
My intention of this thread was not the actual act of violence itself, but rather using a device as a deterrant.
I suppose if I wanted to, I could pay 3-4 former military snipers to follow my path in the distance, unseen, and whenever a move was made, the bad guys go down with a simple head shot. Yeah, there are extreme measures, but that really takes away from the pleasure of hiking for me.

[MikenSalem]

I'm more likely going to clap your ears jab two fingers into your throat while I gouge at your eye with one or more of my thumbs.

If you fall over I'm going to stomp my feet anywhere near your head or if I have my hiking stick I'll hit you in the face and neck as many times as I can until you decide that ****ing with me was a bad idea.

I don't have much to worry about, people think I am the crazy person in the woods.:D RUN GET THE GUNS MYRTLE!!!!

Hey you forgot the part about tearing off their ear and showing it too them! That'll freak someone out, besides they come off really easy...:jump

[Reid]

"Self-defense" is a very unreliable defense in criminal cases, and not nearly as good as laypeople and television would like to believe. Use of a deadly weapon as a "defense" to a perceived assault (and wasp spray, unlike bear spray, may well qualify as 'deadly' to people because of its chemical/caustic nature) can be result in charges against BOTH the attacker and the "victim". Despite the testosterone-hurling here, no police officer in the USA is going to really recommend wasp spray as a "defense", so PLEASE don't rely on some anonymous "I heard that wasp spray is OK to use" statement.

Even "bear spray" and "pepper spray" might not be legally carried in some places, because even the less-dangerous contents they have can be dangerous and potentially deady. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray#In_the_United_States

The best defense to an assault is to run. That's not as "manly" or "exciting" as visions of being Jack Bauer, but it's safer and less likely to result in injury, as well as minimizing legal action against you. And if you can't run because you're being held down, well, sprays aren't going to help you much.

Or you can go the testosterone route and, when you are also arrested, help keep attorneys like me employed. We'll do our best for you, but if we lose, well, we get to go home, even if you don't.

TW

I know Jack.

[TD55]

I knew someone on here would analyze my opinions. In this case, MY opinion is what makes ME most comfortable.

Each of us viewing/responding to this thread has our own beliefs of what would work best for us. If the bad guy you speak of decides he wants my knife with a 10" blade, I would think that he would expect to get, at the very least, some substantial lacerations. If he wins, great for him, I did what I could. Present 100 "bad guys" that are either not armed or armed with a similar weapon, and I'll bet you 80 of them would pass on me after seeing such a weapon and continue to seek out someone without such a defense. The other 20, confrontation is an unavoidable action and the least I can do is get a few shots in before I go down.
My intention of this thread was not the actual act of violence itself, but rather using a device as a deterrant.
I suppose if I wanted to, I could pay 3-4 former military snipers to follow my path in the distance, unseen, and whenever a move was made, the bad guys go down with a simple head shot. Yeah, there are extreme measures, but that really takes away from the pleasure of hiking for me.

Sorry, I was trying to be helpful to you and anyone else reading this thread. The original post suggested that carrying a dagger strapped in a prominent and visible fashion might act as a deterrent to a potential assailant. I stated in an earlier post that I was not judging whether a knife should or should not be carried. My judgement is that bad guys are more deterred by pepper spray than a knife. Hence, if you are going to carry something that is going to be visible as a deterrent, the pepper spray is better than the knife.

[JoshStover]

I myself would a million times rather get sprayed in the face with pepper spray than stabbed and I am willing to bet that most people would agree with me. Why wouldnt you rather have something happen to you that in 15 20 minutes of flushing your eyes with water and your fine rather than having to get stitched up or even worse die. I guess some people are different...

[TD55]

I myself would a million times rather get sprayed in the face with pepper spray than stabbed and I am willing to bet that most people would agree with me. Why wouldnt you rather have something happen to you that in 15 20 minutes of flushing your eyes with water and your fine rather than having to get stitched up or even worse die. I guess some people are different...

Because after you have been sprayed you are at the mercy of the person who sprayed you. The person doing the spraying will have the oppurtunity to escape, or if they choose, attack you with the weapon of thier choice. It might be a knife, club, rock or whatever. They can beat you to a pulp if they want to. Bad guys know this.

Keep in mind that convicts live in an environment where home made daggers and slashing implements are the weapons of necessity. They see knife fights and are often involved in knife fights. They are often skilled at this kind of combat.The knife fight ends when the guards hit them with pepper spray.

[Two Speed]

I believe a cache of weapons should be priority 1 on any hikers gear list. Make sure you have at least 1 gun with plenty of ammo, 2 throwing daggers, 4 throwing stars, a blowgun, a mace, a battle axe, a cross bow and some low yield explosives. Then and only then should you worry about silly things like food, water, shelter, sleeping bag etc....No hiker should ever go into the woods unless they are heavily armed.Low yield explosives? Twinkie.

[saimyoji]

Because after you have been sprayed you are at the mercy of the person who sprayed you. The person doing the spraying will have the oppurtunity to escape, or if they choose, attack you with the weapon of thier choice. It might be a knife, club, rock or whatever. They can beat you to a pulp if they want to. Bad guys know this.

Keep in mind that convicts live in an environment where home made daggers and slashing implements are the weapons of necessity. They see knife fights and are often involved in knife fights. They are often skilled at this kind of combat.The knife fight ends when the guards hit them with pepper spray.


do you often encounter convicts on the trail?

[Homer&Marje]

Hey you forgot the part about tearing off their ear and showing it too them! That'll freak someone out, besides they come off really easy...:jump


Ten pounds of force will rip most ears off:D

Twenty pounds of force will get you a lip:D

A fork you can poke someone's eye out, eat it in front of them, and catch a real funny look from their other eye:D

IMHO

[vamelungeon]

do you often encounter convicts on the trail?
Yes. People who've been released from prison don't often carry signs saying "Convicted Felon" but I'll guarantee you've met some. I'll bet there are some right here on WB. Some people get in trouble, do their time and get on with life with no more problems, and some are problem children forever.

[saimyoji]

Yes. People who've been released from prison don't often carry signs saying "Convicted Felon" but I'll guarantee you've met some. I'll bet there are some right here on WB. Some people get in trouble, do their time and get on with life with no more problems, and some are problem children forever.

i'd like to know what motivates you to write this....a scientific study, personal experience, anecdotal evidence.....

i am a convicted felon (won't tell you why....in fact federal prison was where i learned to construct and use my lightsaber) and know the look. i've met a few and knew right away, but very few. fact is that those who are habitual are not gonna be out on the trail, unless they are predatory killers with a very specific type of target. very rare, but it does happen.

[take-a-knee]

"Self-defense" is a very unreliable defense in criminal cases, and not nearly as good as laypeople and television would like to believe. Use of a deadly weapon as a "defense" to a perceived assault (and wasp spray, unlike bear spray, may well qualify as 'deadly' to people because of its chemical/caustic nature) can be result in charges against BOTH the attacker and the "victim". Despite the testosterone-hurling here, no police officer in the USA is going to really recommend wasp spray as a "defense", so PLEASE don't rely on some anonymous "I heard that wasp spray is OK to use" statement.

Even "bear spray" and "pepper spray" might not be legally carried in some places, because even the less-dangerous contents they have can be dangerous and potentially deady. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray#In_the_United_States

The best defense to an assault is to run. That's not as "manly" or "exciting" as visions of being Jack Bauer, but it's safer and less likely to result in injury, as well as minimizing legal action against you. And if you can't run because you're being held down, well, sprays aren't going to help you much.

Or you can go the testosterone route and, when you are also arrested, help keep attorneys like me employed. We'll do our best for you, but if we lose, well, we get to go home, even if you don't.

TW

"The best defense to an assault is to run". Did they teach you that in law school? That just goes to show how ignorant your professors were, if that is the case. Sociologists like Dr. Gary Kleck of FL State Univ. and Dr. John Lott of Yale have proven conclusively that the most effective defense against an assault is a firearm. They've proven that firearms have been brandished millions of times in this country, without harm to anyone involved, by would-be victims of assault. Your proper response to this post should be (if your legal training was worth a damn) to avail yourself of the facts and make an INFORMED decision regarding this matter. You obviously have not done so to date.

[zelph]

Leave your toys at home.

Use your thumbs to gouge out their eyeballs. Do it with the intent to save your life.(close combat training, vietnam"65")

This message brought to you by mild mannered zelph:banana

[Homer&Marje]

Leave your toys at home.

Use your thumbs to gouge out their eyeballs. Do it with the intent to save your life.(close combat training, vietnam"65")

This message brought to you by mild mannered zelph:banana

My knife is for when I drop my thumbs:D I'm a big fan of Krav Maga...Israeli close hand combat. Go for the vitals and go for them quick.

[Pedaling Fool]

...The best defense to an assault is to run. That's not as "manly" or "exciting" as visions of being Jack Bauer, but it's safer and less likely to result in injury, as well as minimizing legal action against you. And if you can't run because you're being held down, well, sprays aren't going to help you much.

Or you can go the testosterone route and, when you are also arrested, help keep attorneys like me employed. We'll do our best for you, but if we lose, well, we get to go home, even if you don't.

TW
Many crime victims are women and I'm sure many would perfer to run (and do attempt to run) and not take the "testosterone route". Problem is, unfortunately, that doesn't work in many situations. Your advice sucks.

And don't worry about attorneys like you being unemployed, many laws are written just to keep you employed.

[saimyoji]

i'd like to know what motivates you to write this....a scientific study, personal experience, anecdotal evidence.....

i am a convicted felon (won't tell you why....in fact federal prison was where i learned to construct and use my lightsaber) and know the look. i've met a few and knew right away, but very few. fact is that those who are habitual are not gonna be out on the trail, unless they are predatory killers with a very specific type of target. very rare, but it does happen.


damn that kid of mine.....sorry...he's been at it again. :o




"The best defense to an assault is to run". Did they teach you that in law school? That just goes to show how ignorant your professors were, if that is the case. Sociologists like Dr. Gary Kleck of FL State Univ. and Dr. John Lott of Yale have proven conclusively that the most effective defense against an assault is a firearm. They've proven that firearms have been brandished millions of times in this country, without harm to anyone involved, by would-be victims of assault. Your proper response to this post should be (if your legal training was worth a damn) to avail yourself of the facts and make an INFORMED decision regarding this matter. You obviously have not done so to date.

thought you'd bite a little harder than that.

[John B]

The best defense to an assault is to run. That's not as "manly" or "exciting" as visions of being Jack Bauer, but it's safer and less likely to result in injury, as well as minimizing legal action against you. And if you can't run because you're being held down, well, sprays aren't going to help you much.

TW

And if you or others would like some good tips on trail running, training techniques, or great places to run, please stop by the Trail Running and Speed Hiking forum on WB! We don't care why you're running, only that you are running. :)

[TD55]

do you often encounter convicts on the trail?
No, nor have I ever encountered a situation where I thought I would have to defend myself against another person. Never have felt threatened on the AT by humans. Have had a few dog incidents. Don't know if they were convict dogs or not.

[nutlub]

This is so sad to me! Maybe I'm completely ignorant, but I LOVE being out in the woods - and it's terrible that there were threatening people that the original post-er ran into - but the thought of having ALL my fellow hikers agreeing ...snip...

I with ya on this one Snap.


:o

[sheepdog]

I believe a cache of weapons should be priority 1 on any hikers gear list. Make sure you have at least 1 gun with plenty of ammo, 2 throwing daggers, 4 throwing stars, a blowgun, a mace, a battle axe, a cross bow and some low yield explosives. Then and only then should you worry about silly things like food, water, shelter, sleeping bag etc....No hiker should ever go into the woods unless they are heavily armed.
What about a bullet proof vest? could double as a sleeping pad.

[Two Speed]

Even better: a bullet proof sleeping pad.

[sheepdog]

Even better: a bullet proof sleeping pad.
does it only work in a hammock ? if they shoot you from below

[Homer&Marje]

You'd have to get a bullet proof underquilt and wear the bullet proof vest I imagine.

[JaxHiker]

I have this (http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/policestuff_2067_283591183) but can't bring myself to carry the 21.9 oz on the trail.

[Homer&Marje]

I have lots of em that I won't carry hiking...maybe the one on the bottom it's only about 4-5 oz and has two inertia opening blades one on either side. I have a sacrificial skull dagger but it's not in this picture....and the skeleton sheath won't attach to my pack:D

[Two Speed]

does it only work in a hammock ? if they shoot you from belowWell, yeah, but I was thinking more along the lines of using it as a shield while you advance on enemy positions along the trail . . . like all 2,100 miles or so.

[Mags]

Well, yeah, but I was thinking more along the lines of using it as a shield while you advance on enemy positions along the trail . . . like all 2,100 miles or so.

Perhaps a hiker testudo? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_formation) Instead of a gladius, we can use hiker poles?

[sheepdog]

Perhaps a hiker testudo? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_formation) Instead of a gladius, we can use hiker poles?
http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTc1Mjg4ODg1NF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwNjc4NjE3._V1._ CR118,0,263,263_SS100_.jpg (http://www.whiteblaze.net/rg/mediaindex/thumbnail/media/rm385652992/tt0416449)

I'm in.

[Two Speed]

Perhaps a hiker testudo? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_formation) Instead of a gladius, we can use hiker poles?Ayup. Prolly oughta make sure the hiker poles have carbide tips, though.

Looks like sheepdog has our back. Any idea if he's a convicted felon-type sheep dog?

[weary]

do you often encounter convicts on the trail?
Hmmmm. How would one know?. I've been hiking 76 years. Well, i don't remembers many details of the early walks, but my folks always insisted that I climbed my first mountain at age 4.

Anyway, in all those years so far no one has ever come up to me and declared, "I am a convict."

Weary

[kolokolo]

So, does this mean nobody needs to bring his/her dagger? :D

[Rockhound]

silly hikers. bringing a knife to a gun fight.

[Mags]

Re: Convicts on the trail


When I did the PCT, I walked by a crew of forest fire fighters training. They all wished me well, had smiles on their faces and were friendly. I asked how their day was going.

Only later did I realize they all had on blaze (prison!) orange forest fire fighters uniforms. :o

Apparently, the state of California uses non-violent offenders for a lot of their forest firefighting crews. (http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/News/2000_Press_Releases/press2000-07.html)

On a similar vein, I did some restoration work on a local open space a a few summers ago. The Open Space ranger said that last week they had another crew doing the same work...from the Boulder County Jail!

[Mags]

Ayup. Prolly oughta make sure the hiker poles have carbide tips, though.




Indeed. I suggest we use a modified version of ADZPCTKO logo on our shields rather than the traditional SPQR.

http://www.pct77.org/adz/images/ADZLOGO1.gif

Perhaps the old school, metal marker, AT symbol.


Instead of an ice axe we add an additional hiking pole?

[The Weasel]

"The best defense to an assault is to run". Did they teach you that in law school? That just goes to show how ignorant your professors were, if that is the case. Sociologists like Dr. Gary Kleck of FL State Univ. and Dr. John Lott of Yale have proven conclusively that the most effective defense against an assault is a firearm. They've proven that firearms have been brandished millions of times in this country, without harm to anyone involved, by would-be victims of assault. Your proper response to this post should be (if your legal training was worth a damn) to avail yourself of the facts and make an INFORMED decision regarding this matter. You obviously have not done so to date.


Leave your toys at home.

Use your thumbs to gouge out their eyeballs. Do it with the intent to save your life.(close combat training, vietnam"65")

This message brought to you by mild mannered zelph:banana


My knife is for when I drop my thumbs:D I'm a big fan of Krav Maga...Israeli close hand combat. Go for the vitals and go for them quick.


Many crime victims are women and I'm sure many would perfer to run (and do attempt to run) and not take the "testosterone route". Problem is, unfortunately, that doesn't work in many situations. Your advice sucks.

And don't worry about attorneys like you being unemployed, many laws are written just to keep you employed.

God, I love you guys. Chest thumpin', drum beatin', real HE-men. Of course, neither I nor most backpackers ever see gosh-oh-golly REAL guys like you, packin' heat, bolo survival kay-bar big mean nasty knives on your hips in your realio-trulio almost-GI issue camos, unless say, we're watching a bad Ben Stiller movie. On the rrail? People are normal, maybe with a little pepper spray until they realize that's not really necessary either, since all the felons you guys seem to see behind every rock aren't really out that, darn it all! I mean, what use is all that hollow-point, copper-jacket ammo if you can't SHOW how much of a reel, I mean REAL, guy you are!

As for the law, well, when there is an assault, which is a threat of unlawful force and touching (as opposed to a battery), the law imposes on the victim what is known as a 'duty of retreat,' unless one is in one's own house (and sometimes even then). That means trying to avoid the assault if that is possible, and if it must be met with the least amount of force reasonably necessary to defeat the assault.

TW

[Tuckahoe]

Again, one should be familar with their local laws as well as the laws for those places that they intend to travel.

The current trend in a number of states is the passage of "Castle Doctrine" and "stand your ground" laws allowing the use of force without requiring the victim to retreat.

[cowboy nichols]

Many years ago an ex marine taught me how to defend myself. I've never been afraid to go anywhere alone. I've used a knife twice to get out of trouble and neither time was in the woods. As for a dagger you only need a 1/2 inch of a sharp knife to stop an attacker. He also said to never carry a weapon unless you are willing to use it. I was, I am and I will.

[zelph]

God, I love you guys. People are normal, maybe with a little pepper spray until they realize that's not really necessary either.
, and if it must be met with the least amount of force reasonably necessary to defeat the assault.

TW

Use your thumbs;)

I knew I shouldn't have entered this thread.

[vamelungeon]

i'd like to know what motivates you to write this....a scientific study, personal experience, anecdotal evidence.....

i am a convicted felon (won't tell you why....in fact federal prison was where i learned to construct and use my lightsaber) and know the look. i've met a few and knew right away, but very few. fact is that those who are habitual are not gonna be out on the trail, unless they are predatory killers with a very specific type of target. very rare, but it does happen.
Someone asked if there were "convicts" on the trail. We all probably interact with convicted felons every day and don't know it.
Motivation??? I was responding to a post. How do I know about felons? My profession puts me in a position of having to know about the criminal histories of some of the people I interact with. Some are very nice people who made a mistake, some are very not-nice people at the other end of the spectrum who would kill you for the fun of it.

[Wise Old Owl]

Someone asked if there were "convicts" on the trail. We all probably interact with convicted felons every day and don't know it.
Motivation??? I was responding to a post. How do I know about felons? My profession puts me in a position of having to know about the criminal histories of some of the people I interact with. Some are very nice people who made a mistake, some are very not-nice people at the other end of the spectrum who would kill you for the fun of it.


Convicts? that just a "college" for folks that hated high school and wanted a "Degree" in hard knocks... they come out edumacated!


I can see the conversation now...


Not a lot of diffence between a "Counselor" and a "Parole Officer"

"Well Micheal "Vic" that Stoli & OJ at the Airport bar was not a good idea to toast the press with today!!!"

[weary]

So, does this mean nobody needs to bring his/her dagger? :D
Just as it's hard to tell whether folks one sees on a trail are convicts, it's equally hard to tell without some clue what "this" it is that you are referencing.

[JoshStover]

Have any of you all ever seen a "Cane Gun"? Pretty much just a walking stick with a .22 caliber rifle built in. I think I just had a great idea that I am going to have to sell to Leki. ''The New .22 Trekking Pole"!! That would be a must have when dealing with all of these Wild Felons we encounter along the AT. lol

[Homer&Marje]

That's a misfired weapon waiting to happen....just saying.

[JoshStover]

That's a misfired weapon waiting to happen....just saying.

lol. You can't really misfire a cane gun or atleast the ones I have seen. The top of the cane folds over to reveal the trigger so thats kind of a builtin saftey(I guess).

[Mags]

A cane gun?

Unless you are a James Bond villain you should never be using a cane gun.

OK...perhaps if you speak with a Brit accent and are dapper dresser while hiking. A bowler hat may help, too. The photo below is with an umbrella..but a cane would probably work, too. Chip. Chip. Cheerio!


http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/avengers-2008.jpg

[JoshStover]

A cane gun?

Unless you are a James Bond villain you should never be using a cane gun.

OK...perhaps if you speak with a Brit accent and are dapper dresser while hiking. A bowler hat may help, too. The photo below is with an umbrella..but a cane would probably work, too. Chip. Chip. Cheerio!


http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/avengers-2008.jpg

LOL. True True. I was pretty much joking about the cane gun and I think that the end of the barrel would get pretty dirty pretty quick on the AT...

[mudhead]

Visions of Diana Rigg. That's what I want for protection from idiots. Not a dagger.

[Two Speed]

. . . Instead of an ice axe we add an additional hiking pole?I dunno. Maybe substitute a battle axe for the ice ax. That way it's multiple use so we're still gram weenies.

Have any of you all ever seen a "Cane Gun"? . . . lollol? LOL? Been carrying two of those for years, twinkie.


A cane gun? . . . See above response. Evidently I'm a James Bond villain and never knew it. Guess I oughta check to see where my royalty checks have been going. :cool:

[take-a-knee]

God, I love you guys. Chest thumpin', drum beatin', real HE-men. Of course, neither I nor most backpackers ever see gosh-oh-golly REAL guys like you, packin' heat, bolo survival kay-bar big mean nasty knives on your hips in your realio-trulio almost-GI issue camos, unless say, we're watching a bad Ben Stiller movie. On the rrail? People are normal, maybe with a little pepper spray until they realize that's not really necessary either, since all the felons you guys seem to see behind every rock aren't really out that, darn it all! I mean, what use is all that hollow-point, copper-jacket ammo if you can't SHOW how much of a reel, I mean REAL, guy you are!

As for the law, well, when there is an assault, which is a threat of unlawful force and touching (as opposed to a battery), the law imposes on the victim what is known as a 'duty of retreat,' unless one is in one's own house (and sometimes even then). That means trying to avoid the assault if that is possible, and if it must be met with the least amount of force reasonably necessary to defeat the assault.

TW

Whether this retired SF Medic qualifies as "he-man" is for others to decide, suffice to say I'm secure in my manhood. I don't wear camo on the trail (unless I'm hunting) and I don't own a Kabar or a bayonet.

As for the law, states like I reside in, where there are far fewer "weasel" lawyers, have undone your cited "duty to retreat". Do you know a lot about alcohol stoves or something? Maybe you could post about something useful that you have actual knowledge of.

[sheepdog]

Most villans would blanch at the sight of scrapple.

[Two Speed]

Maybe a bullet proof sleeping pad filled with scrapple? :-? Nah, means you'd have to smell that crap at night. Not worth it.

[Pedaling Fool]

God, I love you guys. Chest thumpin', drum beatin', real HE-men. Of course, neither I nor most backpackers ever see gosh-oh-golly REAL guys like you, packin' heat, bolo survival kay-bar big mean nasty knives on your hips in your realio-trulio almost-GI issue camos, unless say, we're watching a bad Ben Stiller movie. On the rrail? People are normal, maybe with a little pepper spray until they realize that's not really necessary either, since all the felons you guys seem to see behind every rock aren't really out that, darn it all! I mean, what use is all that hollow-point, copper-jacket ammo if you can't SHOW how much of a reel, I mean REAL, guy you are!

As for the law, well, when there is an assault, which is a threat of unlawful force and touching (as opposed to a battery), the law imposes on the victim what is known as a 'duty of retreat,' unless one is in one's own house (and sometimes even then). That means trying to avoid the assault if that is possible, and if it must be met with the least amount of force reasonably necessary to defeat the assault.

TW
TW, you know I wasn't thumping my chest. As for the "Duty to Retreat" laws, that's just the kind of laws I was referring to that will ensure lawyers remain employed.

Tell me you can't see the stupidity in placing the burden on the victim to clearly announce their intention to use deadly force if running away failed.

[The Weasel]

Whether this retired SF Medic qualifies as "he-man" is for others to decide, suffice to say I'm secure in my manhood. I don't wear camo on the trail (unless I'm hunting) and I don't own a Kabar or a bayonet.

As for the law, states like I reside in, where there are far fewer "weasel" lawyers, have undone your cited "duty to retreat". Do you know a lot about alcohol stoves or something? Maybe you could post about something useful that you have actual knowledge of.

And maybe YOU can keep on flaming and adding nothing useful to the topic of "carrying a dagger while hiking" and, thereby, get this thread closed. Does that make your 'manhood' more secure?

TW

[The Weasel]

TW, you know I wasn't thumping my chest. As for the "Duty to Retreat" laws, that's just the kind of laws I was referring to that will ensure lawyers remain employed.

Tell me you can't see the stupidity in placing the burden on the victim to clearly announce their intention to use deadly force if running away failed.

John:

First, the duty to retreat - which, despite 'manhoody' SF medics' beliefs to the contrary, survives largely intact in all 50 states - permits reasonable force for self-protection once retreat is no longer possible. "Deadly" force is only "reasonable" if one has a legitimate/reasonable belief that one is threatened with death or serious bodily injury. Thus, if a 14 year old girl is hitting your chest with fists in anger and your back is to the wall, bear spray or a choke lock is going to be 'reasonable,' but shooting her is going to get you a charge of some kind of manslaughter or murder 2. Similarly, if someone pulls a knife at you on the trail, while they are drunk and staggering, 15 feet away, and you're sober with boots on, doing the Indy Jones gun trick on him is also going to get you charged.

Second, the 'duty to retreat' - which has lasted for 500 years or so, so it must not just be a 'lawyer thing' - serves a very important public interest of making sure that "victims" really are victims, and of preventing fights rather than encouraging shootouts (or knife fights, or whatever). Thus, there are no small number of situations where the attacker, when the "victim" responds in kind, actually succeeds in convincing the authorities (sometimes with the help of witnesses on his side) that he was the one that was attacked. Encouraging people to 'back away' from fights minimizes this. It also, by discouraging fights, maintains public safety for both people (and others, who are often injured by wild shots, including injuries from knives). In short, it's not there to help lawyers make a living (no lawyer can make a living on that kind of case, either), but to protect the public from testosterone-overloaded people who are looking for a fight.

And that's how it sounds here: All this noise is back-and-forth about "I'm really, really, really tough, me and my knife/1911/dagger/numchuks/pet gopher that anyone mess with me, they gonna hurt!" It's WWE-style nonsense, basically a genetic remnant of monkeys screeching at each other. Are there occasions when someone defends themself for real with a weapon? Yes, but far more rare than Fox Cable wants you to think. Are there some of those occasions which couldn't have been avoided? Even fewer. Are there far more occasions when people get hurt by joining a fight? Yes.

Sorry. Ben Stiller and Robert Downey sort of ruined it for the "We bad" crowd, I know. And the movie was bad, too.

TW

[Alligator]

And maybe YOU can keep on flaming and adding nothing useful to the topic of "carrying a dagger while hiking" and, thereby, get this thread closed. Does that make your 'manhood' more secure?

TWActually The Weasel he has shown quite remarkable restraint in responding to the completely inflammatory post you put out following. You are not a moderator here, so quit posting about what's going to get things closed and not closed. If you have an issue with a post, PM a moderator or use the report post icon.


God, I love you guys. Chest thumpin', drum beatin', real HE-men. Of course, neither I nor most backpackers ever see gosh-oh-golly REAL guys like you, packin' heat, bolo survival kay-bar big mean nasty knives on your hips in your realio-trulio almost-GI issue camos, unless say, we're watching a bad Ben Stiller movie. On the rrail? People are normal, maybe with a little pepper spray until they realize that's not really necessary either, since all the felons you guys seem to see behind every rock aren't really out that, darn it all! I mean, what use is all that hollow-point, copper-jacket ammo if you can't SHOW how much of a reel, I mean REAL, guy you are!

As for the law, well, when there is an assault, which is a threat of unlawful force and touching (as opposed to a battery), the law imposes on the victim what is known as a 'duty of retreat,' unless one is in one's own house (and sometimes even then). That means trying to avoid the assault if that is possible, and if it must be met with the least amount of force reasonably necessary to defeat the assault.

TW

[Homer&Marje]

John:

First, the duty to retreat - which, despite 'manhoody' SF medics' beliefs to the contrary, survives largely intact in all 50 states - permits reasonable force for self-protection once retreat is no longer possible. "Deadly" force is only "reasonable" if one has a legitimate/reasonable belief that one is threatened with death or serious bodily injury. Thus, if a 14 year old girl is hitting your chest with fists in anger and your back is to the wall, bear spray or a choke lock is going to be 'reasonable,' but shooting her is going to get you a charge of some kind of manslaughter or murder 2. Similarly, if someone pulls a knife at you on the trail, while they are drunk and staggering, 15 feet away, and you're sober with boots on, doing the Indy Jones gun trick on him is also going to get you charged.

Second, the 'duty to retreat' - which has lasted for 500 years or so, so it must not just be a 'lawyer thing' - serves a very important public interest of making sure that "victims" really are victims, and of preventing fights rather than encouraging shootouts (or knife fights, or whatever). Thus, there are no small number of situations where the attacker, when the "victim" responds in kind, actually succeeds in convincing the authorities (sometimes with the help of witnesses on his side) that he was the one that was attacked. Encouraging people to 'back away' from fights minimizes this. It also, by discouraging fights, maintains public safety for both people (and others, who are often injured by wild shots, including injuries from knives). In short, it's not there to help lawyers make a living (no lawyer can make a living on that kind of case, either), but to protect the public from testosterone-overloaded people who are looking for a fight.

And that's how it sounds here: All this noise is back-and-forth about "I'm really, really, really tough, me and my knife/1911/dagger/numchuks/pet gopher that anyone mess with me, they gonna hurt!" It's WWE-style nonsense, basically a genetic remnant of monkeys screeching at each other. Are there occasions when someone defends themself for real with a weapon? Yes, but far more rare than Fox Cable wants you to think. Are there some of those occasions which couldn't have been avoided? Even fewer. Are there far more occasions when people get hurt by joining a fight? Yes.

Sorry. Ben Stiller and Robert Downey sort of ruined it for the "We bad" crowd, I know. And the movie was bad, too.

TW

As a knife wielding drunk I completely agree with this:D It is always better to retreat from a fight than to enter into one.

Especially in the middle of the woods. Imagine how much they could charge your family for the SAR if you were in 6 pieces all scattered around in a national forest.:rolleyes:

[oldfivetango]

I think the point is that 1 person in a million might need a gun on the AT. I thought this was a knife thread?

I've never used my knife for anything but cutting cheese. And myself, once:D

But it's there. But if someone seriously attacks me with no gun or a knife of some sort...I'm droppin pack and kickin your ass with my hands. Much more fun

Yo Homer!
Been out a few months and decided to dropin today.Same old things
goin' on.As for me,I got guns,I got knives,got bear spray,got it all.
Dont want to think about someone taking the knife and using it on me.
Shooting works sometimes until you get put in the slammer for it which is
really likely in todays world.Sprays cause blindness and lawsuits.People who are concerned about violence should carry a fake wallet and be
ready to hand it over and run as the banjo players prolly just want some
meth money anyway.
Oldfivetango

[Homer&Marje]

O Tango....I've kept so far away from the gun talk and you decide to come back and check in now.:D Fake wallet is a great idea, sometimes....running is still your best option in a lot of circumstances.

Or attack your attacker until he bleeds, tell the courts you were the initial attacker and sue the victim for traumatizing you because you don't like the sight of blood....

Any lawyers willing to take me as a client?? Oh wait...Johnny Cochrin died...never mind.

[The Weasel]

Any lawyers willing to take me as a client?? Oh wait...Johnny Cochrin died...never mind.

How much can you afford? :D

TW

[Mags]

See above response. Evidently I'm a James Bond villain and never knew it. Guess I oughta check to see where my royalty checks have been going. :cool:


You use a cane gun while hiking ??!!?!?

Do you have a super secret lair (http://www.cracked.com/article_17278_6-incredible-real-world-supervillain-lairs.html)with ninjas? That's be SWEEEET!

[TD55]

As a knife wielding drunk I completely agree with this:D It is always better to retreat from a fight than to enter into one.

Especially in the middle of the woods. Imagine how much they could charge your family for the SAR if you were in 6 pieces all scattered around in a national forest.:rolleyes:

Yo Homer, you seem to be somewhat stuck on that SAR thing. Maybe you might consider clearing your head from that topic a bit. Just sayin.... perhaps you could make one of those chocolate cakes with the bones in it? Just sayin....

[Homer&Marje]

How much can you afford? :D

TW

I hike and I'm on disability. Can you do this one pro bono?:D


Yo Homer, you seem to be somewhat stuck on that SAR thing. Maybe you might consider clearing your head from that topic a bit. Just sayin.... perhaps you could make one of those chocolate cakes with the bones in it? Just sayin....

Everyone else was mentioning it elsewhere, I thought I'd give it a try.

Don't talk about my 12lb veal roast that way. It is BABY COW. Not chocolate.

[atrerunner]

Pinhoti Trail , Cheaha State Park in Alabama. I really just want a visible deterrant that says to someone, "hey, I don't want to **** with this guy".
Well, if you just want a menacing message, buy a t-shirt that says "don't **** with this guy", or velcro one of these to your chest: http://www.rmjtactical.com/ or just buy the nylon version of the real thing, along with one of his t-shirts. Police and Military get a $65 dollar discount off the cost of the genuine multitasking cheesecutters/stakedrivers. If you look around, you can still find the the triple-threat model that incorporates a pipe, although i have yet to find one with a piezo-electric igniter.

[The Weasel]

I hike and I'm on disability. Can you do this one pro bono?:D

Is that pro your bono, or my bono? Sure. Either way. :D

TW

[TD55]

Don't talk about my 12lb veal roast that way. It is BABY COW. Not chocolate.

OK, now I get it. BABY COW, DAGGER on the AT. Makes sense now.

[saimyoji]

Actually The Weasel he has shown quite remarkable restraint in responding to the completely inflammatory post you put out following. You are not a moderator here, so quit posting about what's going to get things closed and not closed. If you have an issue with a post, PM a moderator or use the report post icon.



ooooohhhhhhh......SNAP! :eek:

[The Weasel]

ooooohhhhhhh......SNAP! :eek:

I know! I'll be so much nicer now, now that nice Mr. Alligator has reminded me. :)

TW

[atrerunner]

Whoever mentioned canes made me recall an event in the life of the late Col. Rex Applegate (who also codesigned one of the more famous daggers, the Applegate-Fairbairne dagger, so this isn't totally OT): when he was 84, some months before he passed away of a heart attack/stroke, he was walking down a city street with his cane and was mugged by three much younger men. I forget now whether he killed any of them, but the survivors were probably suprised to learn that the old man who had beat them unconscious with his cane was one of the original members of the OSS in WW2, had fought with and trained many troops, and was the author of books like "Kill or Be Killed". I do remember that the muggers did at least suffer broken bones, as well as concussions. I wonder at what point they said 'uh, oh...'?

[oldfivetango]

O Tango....I've kept so far away from the gun talk and you decide to come back and check in now.:D Fake wallet is a great idea, sometimes....running is still your best option in a lot of circumstances.

Or attack your attacker until he bleeds, tell the courts you were the initial attacker and sue the victim for traumatizing you because you don't like the sight of blood....

Any lawyers willing to take me as a client?? Oh wait...Johnny Cochrin died...never mind.

Yo Homer-fake wallet idea is not mine.Borrowed it from Massad Ayoub.
All decent "gun nuts" know who he is as he wrote a little book called
"In the Gravest Extreme" in which he advocated trying not to shoot some
one at all costs unless you absolutely have to.I am packing"fake wallet"
around the holidays and if going to town at night.Has about $50 in it to
appease the predator.If not appeased they would be in big trouble
though.
Goodbye everyone.Time to take a few more months off.
Oldfivetango

[sheepdog]

These canes have flasks in them. Once you get robbed you can have a drink and a cigar.

http://www.fashionablecanes.com/flask-canes.html

[SunnyWalker]

If you are going to hike you need to consider the "what-if" of being assaulted. It is very naive to think it won't happen to you. Many of us have read of the assaults along the AT. However, I believe the statistics are in favor of the peaceful hiker. None-the-less, we all make a choice. Whether it is to go out with actually no self defense "measures", be they cp, pepper spray, knife, gun, etc., or with something, -we ARE making a choice. But we do this whenever we leave our home. We all measure the level of threat we believe we will face that day. Usually, with most of us we think the "threat level" to our personal safety is nill (if we think about it at all). Well, it happened to my family and it was completely un-expected and "out of the blue". For this reason I do not naively assume nothing will ever happen, not anymore. However, I do not carry a gun and I am not usually anxious about it. However, I constantly check my enviroment and I use my head. That is the greatest weapon (mind, and instincts). Now, when I go hiking I do make a decision to carry a self-defense "tool" because I feel I am very isolated from any help. My choice is pepper spray. I can use it without touching the attacker. No blood on me. I can walk and/or run away and not have to call the police if I do not want to. If I use a gun or knife I would have to call them and be subject to court, police checks, possible arrest, etc. I do not think this would happen with pepper spray. I would only use it when I am in fear of my life, etc. I work at a prison full time. I have seen very, VERY few inmates not fear pepper spray. I have seen VERY few not be completely incapacitated by it. I believe from personal experience that it is a VERY effective tool in spite of many of these nay-sayers. Little spray containers are light and just right for hiking, biking, etc. I think that anyone on the trail, that is attempting to assault me will be put down by it. I don't think he/she is going to be one of these "unaffected inmates". I can carry it on my belt, in my pocket, etc. All that said, I still think the best "weapon" I might have in my "self defense arsenal" is my mind. I can use wisdom to defuse situations and walk away. I can avoid situations where there is apparent turmoil and trouble brewing. I can watch and see and take preventive measures. I am not anti-gun but I have observed friends who carry and they get the mentality that bullets will bounce off them and they can take anything -they are carrying! I think they are not using their best weapon (mind, not the gun). That said I have met CHP carriers who have taught me stuff and who are very responsible. But the pepper spray is my choice.

[Mags]

These canes have flasks in them. Once you get robbed you can have a drink and a cigar.

http://www.fashionablecanes.com/flask-canes.html

The text itself is just awesome:

A new flask cane will make the perfect addition to your wardrobe for your next formal event. Sneak a sip in a hidden flask cane, or use a walking cane flask to cater to your friends without sacrificing a touch of style. Perfect for organizational meetings or just as a conversation piece, these canes with flasks are durably made to be used for both purposes. With a reliable bladder or glass vial hidden inside the shaft, each piece is designed to last for years while retaining its beauty and elegance. Look for one with an organizational theme, or an elegant piece that will suit any event. Whether to keep by your side at all times, or just as an accent to your formal wardrobe, you’ll love shopping our cane flasks. Buy one today!

[Two Speed]

Do you have a super secret lair (http://www.cracked.com/article_17278_6-incredible-real-world-supervillain-lairs.html)with ninjas? That's be SWEEEET!Yes, I do have a super secret lair. Unfortunately remodeling that sucker is running waaaaaaaaaay over budget and over schedule. :mad:

[chefjason]

Yes, I do have a super secret lair. Unfortunately remodeling that sucker is running waaaaaaaaaay over budget and over schedule. :mad:

Is that because you have to kill the delivery guys so they can't reveal the local? If so, might I suggest this:

http://www.hollywoodhardware.de/thumbs/neuralizer1.jpg

Less mess, and a hell of a lot more fun!

[Two Speed]

Did for a while, but all the dead delivery guys sitting in brown vans with the motor running was drawing attention to the PRP* so I had to start going and getting my own stuff.

* PRP = perpetual remodeling project

[yaduck9]

A story was previously posted on this thread but it did not include the ending


This is the the link to the follow up of a retired school teacher jailed, in what would ultimately be later declared self defense.

LW asked in a previous thread "what is the point" In respectful response, I would say this; Its legal to defend yourself with a gun but the problems just begin. The retired teacher lost several years of freedom and has a tremendous legal bill. Would pepper spray and a hiking staff created a better outcome?

http://www.paysonroundup.com/news/2009/jul/24/family_greets_fish_he_walks_out_prison/

[FSG]

personally, I just choose to hike with my husband, the former Marine.....

you're right, Amen. We all choose some sort of self-defense "tool".....

I have taken self-defense classes, firearms safety classes, and am licensed CCW in most of the states the AT goes through. I still dont choose to carry a firearm, not because I dont think I need it, but...WOW thats alot of weight to add to an already heavy pack load.

I do carry a knife (not a dagger, double bladed are illegal in many places and Im too lazy to read local laws of every where I travel through). Besides, too easy to cut yourself with a double bladed knife. If you need a knife with your gear (and Im one of those who thinks you do), why carry more than one? Pick a knife that will do all your tasks. you can stab a guy with a single bladed knife...you cant very easily do the odd kitchen/shelter job with a double blade (without extreme caution anyway).

[chefjason]

Did for a while, but all the dead delivery guys sitting in brown vans with the motor running was drawing attention to the PRP* so I had to start going and getting my own stuff.

* PRP = perpetual remodeling project
That's an easy one man! You just leave the van in the shady part of town with the keys in it! Let the perps we are toting guns because of deal with the sticky stuff for ya!

[Two Speed]

Sounds like the sage voice of experience.

[bronconite]

First, the duty to retreat - which, despite 'manhoody' SF medics' beliefs to the contrary, survives largely intact in all 50 states - permits reasonable force for self-protection once retreat is no longer possible.
TW

I wouldn't normally argue with a lawer about law. But this statement is absolutly false. In 2005 Florida passed HB 249 CS. Protection of Persons and Property which states:


The bill provides that a person who is attacked in a place “where the person has a right to be” other than a
dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, does not have a duty to retreat and may meet force with force,
including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily
harm to himself, herself, or to another or to prevent a forcible felony.


source:http://www.myflorida.com/search/results.html?cx=008503041933476338818%3Auddc80mgfd o&cof=FORID%3A11&q=PROTECTION+OF+PERSONS+BILL&sa=Search#1658


Many other states have since followed. A simple google search of "stand your ground laws" will yield a lot of info. Just make sure you know the law of the state you're in.

[chefjason]

Sounds like the sage voice of experience.
Well, I have spent my fair time around gentelmen wearing that strikingly fashonable "convict orange". So, maybe I have heard a thing or two. Maybe.:cool:

[SunnyWalker]

FSG: yep, sounds good. Although, I still imagine the odds are in favor of no problem on the AT.

[kolokolo]

a person who is attacked in a place “where the person has a right to be” other than a
dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, does not have a duty to retreat and may meet force with force,


Just because you can doesn't mean that you should. I'd still leave the dagger at home.

[Doooglas]

Give it 5 more years and you'll need an Uzi to hike up there.

[sylvia_claire]

I carry my fixed blade para military sheath knife quite often. Does not weigh much but it is a very visible deterrent on my sternum strap.

BE WARNED: NOT MANY PEOPLE STOP TO TALK TO YOU:D:D

people won't talk to me! I definatly need one of these...

[ShelterLeopard]

I really don't like the idae of anyone carrying guns on trail, but I carry a dagger and a knife. (I actually usually have three knives- one for food and small things, one for utility on my leatherman, and my dagger. For my through I'm just bringing the leatherman and dagger) I definitley think (as a solo female) a dagger is a good idea.

[Trooper]

carry a can of wasp spray. shoots far and will work as well or better than bear spray or mase. it also has a dual purpose for all you ultralighters, lol.

[chefjason]

with a little reading you will see that I have stated that I carry a fire arm and am an advocate of such practices, but not anymore. Now I think one should carry this



























Hell yeah!!

[chefjason]

with a little reading you will see that I have stated that I carry a fire arm and am an advocate of such practices, but not anymore. Now I think one should carry this



























Hell yeah!!
Damn litte pictures! Not really the awesome affect I was gong for.:mad:

[Rocket Jones]

with a little reading you will see that I have stated that I carry a fire arm and am an advocate of such practices, but not anymore. Now I think one should carry this



























Hell yeah!!

Big whoop. I carry a Bic too. ;)

[chefjason]

Big whoop. I carry a Bic too. ;)
That'd be one hellofa stogy if you light it with one of those!

[88BlueGT]

a bic and a "travel size" can of hairspray will get you that lol

Actually, now that I think of it, why doesen't anyone carry this? A small travel size can of hairspray can't weigh more than a few oz. You can use it for protection against animals, humans (maybe lol) and it great for a good fire starter ;)

[XCskiNYC]

Here ya go. All the personal protection you could want. And it chops firewood too.

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___98132



For those with an aversion to excess ounces, you can trade the above implement's 17.52-inch overall length and weight of 2#6 for a shorter (8.9-inch overall length) model's lesser weight of 19.4 ozs.

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___98134


That foot-and-half length would give you some nice swinging momentum. OTOH, the shorter tool is almost half the weight of the longer. A classic weight-versus-utility hiking gear tradeoff.

But it might work best to just threaten amputation:

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___81057

[PorkchopBob]

I was followed earlier this year by 2 guys who claimed they were lost and seeking the trailhead parking lot. They had no maps, no fluids, and smelled of alcohol.
I did have my 5" blade diving knife that I managed to get out of my pack and have available, especially when they dropped back behind me several times.
Anyway, I'm thinking about ordering a dagger (double edge) that has an almost 7" blade. States have different laws regarding carrying these knives and whether they should be made apparent (not concealed). I was thinking about attaching the sheath on my shoulder strap so as to be visible to someone and a deterrant.

Has anyone done this, or come across someone hiking that carried one?
works well at waist strap, and bear spray is handy too.

[BrianLe]

"I was followed earlier this year by 2 guys who claimed they were lost and seeking the trailhead parking lot."

My feeling is that I'm safer without any sort of weapon; one of the reasons relevant to the above quote is as part of an overall "lighter pack" approach: If these were backpackers (as I conclude from the reference) but not thru-hikers (highly, highly unlikely), a lighter pack makes it that much easier for a thru-hiker to simply out-walk them, pull ahead and stay ahead.

ShelterLeopard said: "I definitley think (as a solo female) a dagger is a good idea."

One aspect of this is the willingness of said female to actually use the dagger; same issue as with a gun only I think even more so. We're mostly pretty civilized creatures, it's not easy to shove a knife into another person (thank heavens it's not easy ...). There's a natural tendency to hesitate, and ... [s]he who hesitates is lost.

Thus I think that if any sort of weapon is to be brought, some sort of pepper spray would indeed be the better choice --- you would be more willing and likely to spray pepper in someone's face than do them serious (and potentially fatal) bloody injury with a knife.

And since bears are not much of a problem on the AT, I'd carrry a lighter version that's designed for homo sapien animals, rather than ursus americanus (black bears).

Bears not a danger? Just look for stats on bear attacks and injuries or deaths. Now remove the cases of obvious "the person was an idiot" or in more than usual risk situations that don't apply to hiking on the AT (hunting Grizzlies in Alaska for example, or keeping/feeding bears). In the last century there were about 50 human deaths due to black bears even including a lot of these "clearly don't apply" cases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America#2000s

So my suggestion is to forget about bears; if you really feel that you need protection of some sort, make it something like a lightweight Mace dispenser that you keep handy and doesn't add much to your base weight, for example, clip something like this to your shoulder strap: http://www.safetyprotectiontechnology.com/product/PS-1A-RED

One of the things that makes thru-hikers more comfortable about this stuff is becoming part of the gypsy thru-hiker ~community. Folks watch out for each other, and if you're inclined, I would guess that especially on the AT it's easy to end up as part of a group.

[middle to middle]

I have successfully used a cheap water pistol filled with amonia on dogs that chased me while bike riding.