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2XL
07-27-2004, 08:53
This is the first I have heard of snakebites, and two on the same day? So close together?
I think I will go back to get the Hiker's name.

A post from the Backpacker forum: Posted By LAPIX
Rattlesnake warning for CT section of AT
Posted: Jul 27, 2004 8:28 AM Reply

Hey fellow hikers, Most people are unaware that northwest CT has a high population of rattle snakes. Just yesterday there was 2 rescues, one on Sharon Mountain and one on Bear mountain which I was 20 yards behind the thru hiker and evacuated him to the lot where I was parked. This time of year is hot humid and small creeks are dry. Be careful over this way, it's a costly mishap and worse it can cost you your life.

Rain Man
07-27-2004, 09:52
.... Be careful over this way, it's a costly mishap and worse it can cost you your life.

From a snake bite? Really? A full-grown athletic adult? I didn't know that!

How many deaths on the AT have there been from snake bites?

Rain Man

.

slatchley
07-27-2004, 09:54
I was just on Bear on Sat. and I must say I had the creeps about rattllers for some strange reason, which I have never had before. Between bears and snakes the hike in a fog days are gone I guess

SavageLlama
07-27-2004, 10:42
I believe it.

I was on Sharon Mtn in CT a few weeks back and saw a 4-foot rattler ready to strike at the next unsuspecting thing to come along the trail. Luckily it wasn't me.:D

2XL
07-27-2004, 10:42
It was not my post that said it could end your life.
From everything I have read on snakebite,
I think a full grown healthy adult would fair well after a snakebite if treated properly, IE: patient stablized and risk of shock reduced.(that cut and suck treatment causes more damage in most cases, as does the tornequet (sp?)technique.)
I think the elderly and children are most at risk.
There are many on this site that could give us the info on how to deal with this situation properly.

2XL
07-27-2004, 10:47
[QUOTE=!

How many deaths on the AT have there been from snake bites?


.[/QUOTE]
I think I read on this site that there has never been a reported death from a rattlesnake bite.
I will do a search and confirm.

orangebug
07-27-2004, 10:59
[QUOTE=2XLI think I read on this site that there has never been a reported death from a rattlesnake bite.
I will do a search and confirm.[/QUOTE]

I don't know that anyone keeps a statistic regarding snake bite deaths on the AT. However, rattlesnake bites are always potentially lethal, even in healthy athletic men. Any rattlesnake bite deserves a trip to the ER, and usually at least a night in an ICU. If antivenom is required, a much longer treatment is usually necessay.

Even the antivenom has risk of lethal effects.

Bill...

Alligator
07-27-2004, 11:15
Two weeks ago I was hiking the Jersey section of the trail. I was hiking up to the fire tower just north of the Mohican Center. It had just gotten dark, but I could still see fairly well (so I thought), the trail was pretty easy, and I was almost to the fire tower. I was just bringing my right foot forward when I looked down. A large snake was lying across the trail, head and tail in the bushes. As I was placing my right foot back down to turn around, I heard the one sound you do not want hear to hear, an extended rattle. Needless to say, I retreated back down the trail. I did of course take a picture, on 6X zoom, but it came out very poorly due to weak flash. I keep forgetting to look it up, but I suspect it was a timber rattlesnake (?) The flashes caused the snake to move off, and I took a wide berth around it on the opposite side of the trail. And I put my headlamp on too.

2XL
07-27-2004, 12:15
POSTED BY : LAPIX on Backpackerforum
Re: Rattlesnake warning for CT section of AT
Posted: Jul 27, 2004 9:03 AM Reply


Jim Hailey and he called from Hartford Hospital last night and said they were keeping him for observation. There was a crew of AMC trail volunteers that we reached and had them call the EMT's. We met them at the lot and he was taken to Sharon Hospital and then helicoptered to Hartford. I told him to call me this morning to check in and so far nothing.
He is back on the trail again.
I wonder who gets the bill for the chopper? :-?

frankcornbread
07-27-2004, 12:24
Copperheads as well. I live ten miles from Rockfish gap and have friends in the ER(s) local to the trail. I was told two weeks ago that they had 7 copperhead victims the previous week. I don't know if these were AT hikers or not but came from the same forested areas. Although less likely to be lethal their bites do an immense amount of tissue damage. (different toxin than rattlers, same as brown recluse spider, I think) As well, copperheads are somewhat more agressive, so rban legend has it, and don't have the early warning feature of rattlers. Probably worth carrying a Sawyer pump, effective and light weight, during the summer. They can remove 30% of the venom if used immediately. BTW some statistics show that 25% of pit viper bites do not inject venom and defensive bites, as opposed to hunting bites, inject less venom but it pays to be prepared AND aware. Ditch the mp3 player for a while.
Disclaimer: I'm NO expert but suggest the need for some research before heading out. This season seems to be full of local snake stories.
FC
http://newyorksearchandrescue.org/download/snakebite.html
This is a "first aid" link that may be of interest.
http://www.whmentors.org/saf/snakes.html
Rattle snake specific site
http://www.snakesandfrogs.com/scra/snakes/copperh.htm
copperhead data
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/gaston/Pests/reptiles/copperhead.htm
copperhead data

sherrill
07-27-2004, 12:40
On the contrary, I have found copperheads less agressive than rattlesnakes.

ridgewalker777
07-27-2004, 13:39
I've seen several black snakes moving between bog or water bridges and brooks--any identification on those?

copythat
07-27-2004, 13:56
I've seen several black snakes moving between bog or water bridges and brooks--any identification on those?

state expert told me they're most likely Northern water snakes, non-venomous but armed with several rows of teeth for grabbing prey, and quite aggressive when confronted. Will bite over and over. Of course, no venom.

ridgewalker777
07-27-2004, 14:30
Thanks a lot for the info. It would be a scary experience if it came to that...

JP
07-27-2004, 14:42
Maybe we need snake bells.

icemanat95
07-27-2004, 14:52
Copperheads are pit vipers like Rattlesnakes and inject similar types of toxins. Both Rattlesnake and copperhead bites (as well as Water Moccasin/Cottonmouth) bites work in pretty much the same way and do lots of tissue damage as well as causing neurotoxic effects. Bite placement has a lot to do with lethal potential. A bite to the neck or face will put the toxins pretty quickly into the heart and brain where they will do the most damage. Bites into the legs and hands are less serious as the toxins will disperse into the tissues and muscle of the bite site more readily. It'll hurt like hell, but it is unlikely to be lethal.

All snakes swim fairly well, but some are more at home in the water than others. To the best of my knowledge, water mocassins are not an issue along the AT. I have seen plenty of Rattlesnakes and Copperheads though. Both can be found up into Massachusetts and in limited numbers in Vermont and New Hampshire, especially along the Connecticut River Valley. Exposed outcroppings of rock are likely spots in the morning as the snakes try to take on body heat from the sun, they will move to the shade in the afternoon to stay cooler.

Snakes don't want to waste their resources. They know they can't kill you and eat you, so they bite in self defense, not wasting too much venom in the process, they might want to eat a bit later and wasting venom on your hide doesn't help them get that job done. So as many as 2 out of 3 defensive bites will not envenomate. They will still hurt like heck (some venom gets in there and they penetrate a good inch or so), but they will not be life threatening unless you are allergic to the proteins contained in the trace amounts of venom. Even venomous defensive bites rarely involve lethal doses for an adult human (again unless you are allergic). But you could end up seriously messed up for a while.

Sawyer extractors can really help reduce the severity of a snakebite, spiderbite or beesting, but you've got to get right on it. Getting the hell away from the offending critter is a good thing. It won't eliminate the problems, but obviously the less venom in your body, the better. The question is do you want to spend the weight and space to carry one?

krazychefkurt
07-27-2004, 14:54
The black water snakes could also be a water moccason better known as cotton mouth, They are lethal. I have seen a few rattlers on bear mountain this year, kinda weird haven't seen any in 5 years there???

ripple
07-27-2004, 15:46
There are no water moccasins in Ct. They are inhabit the southern states. The black snakes could be the eastern racer, black rat snake, or a water snake. The racer has a glossy black body that is long and slender with a white throat. The northern water snake is generally dark brown and has dark markings that sometimes make it seem black. They have a thick bodies. The rat snake when young have a dull brown body w/ dark markings as they get older they look black. Their underside is a yellowish color. They all inhabit the same areas.

Blue Jay
07-27-2004, 15:57
The vast majority of snake bites are on the hand and also involve alcohol. I have unintentionaly walked within a foot of rattlers "coiled up and ready to strike" over a dozen times and only was made aware of it when they rattled behind me. I firmly believe that if you do not try to pick them up or step on them there is very little chance they will bite. Like Iceman said they are well aware they cannot eat you, so why should they bother unless you bother them.

SavageLlama
07-27-2004, 16:53
There are no water moccasins in Ct.
Not true. I grew up in CT and have seen dozens.

frankcornbread
07-27-2004, 17:01
Thanks Iceman for the Real info. I obviously get some of mine during philosophical discussion at the local tavern. I do however have firsthand knowledge of the Sawyer extractor: Unit w/ case and contents, 3.5oz. 4-3/4"x1-3/8"x3-1/4". Remove all contents and exchange the hard case for a small ziplock, 1.5oz and it fits in the palm of your hand. PLUS you can shave before going into town with the Bic razor included.
I spend a lot of solo time in wilderness areas so in the unlikely event that I am bitten I will also most likely be the first-aid giver and the organizer of the evac.
Left over Baden Powell doctrine. BE PREPARED ;-I
FC

Speer Carrier
07-27-2004, 17:28
According to information on the internet. Water Moccasins, or Cotton Mouths range from Georgia thru Viginia as far as the AT is concerned. They would only be found as far north as CT if they escaped captivity of some sort.


Skink

Streamweaver
07-27-2004, 18:03
Not true. I grew up in CT and have seen dozens. Ive been Studying snakes for over 30 years-you did not see watermoccisons in CT!! Northern water snakes look alot like them and to people who dont take the time to learn the diference,some other snakes can be mistaken for them too. Streamweaver

Streamweaver
07-27-2004, 18:32
state expert told me they're most likely Northern water snakes, non-venomous but armed with several rows of teeth for grabbing prey, and quite aggressive when confronted. Will bite over and over. Of course, no venom.

Id like to add one point about Northern Watersnakes,Like colt4x5 said they are non venemous but,They can be aggressive compared to other nonvenemous snakes and their saliva does have anticoagulant(sp?) properties.In other words ,their bite can make you bleed quite a bit ,especially if you are already taking blood thinners or are hemopheliac(I think thats the correct term) .

Those black snakes could have been rat snakes that sometimes do hang around near water or they could also have been eastern Hognose snakes which turn black as they mature and are even hevier bodied than the northerns,Though I agree with colt4x5 that northern were likely what you were seeing since they eat mostly fish and frogs. Streamweaver

Jack Tarlin
07-27-2004, 22:18
1. There are no water moccasins in Connecticut.

2. There has never been a fatality attributed to venemous snakebite on the A.T., tho there certainly are cases of non-hikers who live near or adjacent to the Trail who've been bitten, and in all probability, some of these bites probably resulted in a death. But as for hikers dying of snakebite while on the A.T., the answer is no.

3. Several hikers have reported being bitten by poisonous snakes. I know of at least one guy who was nipped by a copperhead; another guy was bitten at the Mohican center in New Jersey (just off the A.T.) while trying to impress people by picking up a timber rattler; I know of at least three people who've reported being bitten through pants or gaiters. I know of several folks who've reported being struck at and missed while hiking, or had a snake strike at their trekking poles.

4. This sounds like a lot of folks. But the risk is really not that great: I've had some close and scary experiences over the years, and have encountered poisonous snakes on all my trips---I've found myself standing right next to them; I've sat on rocks only to discover snakes under them or even ON the same rock I was sitting on; I've stepped over rocks or logs that they were lurking under; I've stepped over them on the Trail; I've had 'em go between my legs. On one memorable occasion, I stepped on one. And on one particularly horrible occasion, I got out of my tent in Virginia butt naked and walked a few yards from my tent in order to pee, only to have a rather indignant and dripping copperhead rear up just feet away from where the business end of a copperhead has absolutely no business being.....NOT a fun experience.

5. For the record, the biggest rattlers I've ever seen on the Trail were in Harriman Park in New York (!!); atop the Priest in Virginia, and in Shenandoah Park. The most I've ever seen in one day were in Northern Virginia (a whole gang of copperheads), and for rattlers, the hot spots are in Pennsylvania, just north of Duncannon and north of Eckville shelter.

6. In regard to poisonous snakes, some vigilance and common sense is in order, but there is really very little chance of getting bitten by one while hiking on the A.T. To put things in perspective, more Americans are killed annually by their family dogs or by their grandparents than by poisonous snakes.

7. That being said, when you get outta your tent in Northern Virginia to pee, bring a headlamp and check out the perimeter before you hose it down.

copythat
07-27-2004, 22:59
Not true. I grew up in CT and have seen dozens.

Call the conn. department of environmental protection. (I did.) they will be amused to find out you have seen snakes they have NEVER SEEN, because they DON'T LIVE HERE. They DON"T LIVE ANYWHERE NEAR HERE. Water mocassins are SOUTHERN snakes. And no, I don't mean southern new england or southern new york. I mean REALLY southern, in the land of pecans and mossy oaks. OK?

SwEeT cLoVeR
07-27-2004, 23:12
I'm curious, do all hikers buy gaitors for snakebite protection? The reason I asked is because I wonder if I should get them or it's useless most of the time? Sorry if i am off the point but this topic is about snakebites.

Rain Man
07-27-2004, 23:24
1... To put things in perspective, more Americans are killed annually by their family dogs or by their grandparents than by poisonous snakes. ... .

Jack, I just LOVE this statistic. Tends to put things in proper perspective ... for those with brains.

If you see grandparents on the trail ... high tail it outta there as fast and you can backtrack. Just think of them as the irrational think of "snakes" and you'll know what to do! LOL just a tad sarcastically.
:cool:

Rain Man

.

Flash Hand
07-28-2004, 06:44
Now, its good time for you or future hikers to buy snake proof gaiters. You won't have to worry about get biten. Its only about 80 dollars. Its cheaper than a trip to ER.


Flash Hand :jump

ripple
07-28-2004, 07:33
Not true. I grew up in CT and have seen dozens.
No you didn't! You have the same chance of seeing a polar bear wonder around downtown New Haven, as you do seeing a water mocassin in CT.

Blue Jay
07-28-2004, 08:42
To put things in perspective, more Americans are killed annually by their family dogs or by their grandparents than by poisonous snakes.

7. That being said, when you get outta your tent in Northern Virginia to pee, bring a headlamp and check out the perimeter before you hose it down.

I have to agree with Jack on this one. Grandparents much more dangerous than all of the snakes on the AT combined, especially if you have children. Then they are out for revenge for all of the things you put them through in the past. I know there is a long list of things many of you are afraid of on the AT, bears, man eating plants, Blues Brothers, garter snakes but remember DO NOT tell your grandparents where you are.

orangebug
07-28-2004, 09:04
No you didn't! You have the same chance of seeing a polar bear wonder around downtown New Haven, as you do seeing a water mocassin in CT.

It is pretty common for folks to refer to any water snake as a mocassin. This reflects our fear of snakes, especially something as seemingly aggressive and dangerous as a snake that leaves the grass just to pursue the hapless boater or swimmer.

While it is unfortunate that many are poorly educated about water snakes, it is a greater shame that so few are educated about the dangers of the hoop snake.

Bill...

Jack Tarlin
07-28-2004, 16:14
The "water mocassins" in Conecticut seems to be the rural version of an "urban legend." The Eastern water mocassin, (or Agkistrodon piscivorous if you prefer) is not native to New England; it's furthest range North is in coastal Virginia, and even there, it's rare. The only poisonous snakes native to New England are the Eastern Coperhad and the Timber Rattlesnake, and they are rare, especially as you go North. In Northern New England, they are virtually unfound; in Maine, they are so rare as to be considered absent; Maine is the only state in the lower 48 that is considered by most authorities to be free of posionous snakes.

For more information, you might want to check out http://www.bio.umass.edu/biology/conn.river/wtrsnake.html

And as for my last post, my apologies to any offended grandparents out there! The point of my statistic (which happens to be perfectly true, by the way) is that your chances of dying of snakebite while on the A.T. are ridiculously small.....something like a dozen people die of snakebite in the U.S. each year, and nearly all of these fall into the following categories:

*People who keep extremely poisonous snakes for pets, usually exotic
ones, for whom medication/trteatment is absent or too distant
*Zookeepers, biologists, herpetologists, etc.
*People who are bitten during religious ceremonies who refuse medical
treatment
*People who are bitten (often multiple times) while teasing, or more likely,
while attempting to pick up a poisonous snake
*People who self-medicate; i.e. every year there are a few people who
get bitten and either do nothing or try to cure the bite itself (often
bourbon is involved) and die as a result
*The very young, the very old, or the infirm

When you subtract snakebite victims from these categories, this means that only a handful of folks in the U.S. die of snakebite in the "classic" way, i.e. they're bitten in the backcountry and die before they can get appropriate medical treatment.

When you consider that millions of folks live in snake country, or travel thru it, EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR, what this means is that your chance of dying of a poisonous snakebite in this country are ridiculously small.

In Connecticut, they're smaller still.

That being said, just watch yer backs and keep an eye on granny.

Flash Hand
07-28-2004, 16:45
Balitmore Jack,


I have seen on the statistics that black bear of the east, had blossomed to high numbers. Which is why we've seen more of bears now than before. So, don't advise others that there are fewer snakes in Connecticut. I believe or suspect that they are already grew to high numbers that we haven't aware of. So, just keep eyes open for them.

Flash Hand :jump

SavageLlama
07-28-2004, 17:01
I stand corrected. It seems they are Northern Water Snakes and not water moccasins. As kids, we always called them moccasins..

SavageLlama
07-28-2004, 17:02
No you didn't! You have the same chance of seeing a polar bear wonder around downtown New Haven, as you do seeing a water mocassin in CT.I see you stole that lame polar bear joke from the first paragraph of this website:

http://www.bio.umass.edu/biology/conn.river/wtrsnake.html

Jack Tarlin
07-28-2004, 17:04
Flash--

I didn't say there were no snakes, or no poisonous snakes, or fewer snakes, in Connecticut.

What I said was that there are no water mocassins there.

And there aren't.

Flash Hand
07-28-2004, 17:08
Balitmore Jack

Your comments here were:

When you subtract snakebite victims from these categories, this means that only a handful of folks in the U.S. die of snakebite in the "classic" way, i.e. they're bitten in the backcountry and die before they can get appropriate medical treatment.

When you consider that millions of folks live in snake country, or travel thru it, EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR, what this means is that your chance of dying of a poisonous snakebite in this country are ridiculously small.

In Connecticut, they're smaller still.


SO, you said, IN CONNECTICUT, THEY'RE SMALLER STILL.

can you rephrase that?

Flash Hand

Flash Hand
07-28-2004, 17:14
[/QUOTE] When you subtract snakebite victims from these categories, this means that only a handful of folks in the U.S. die of snakebite in the "classic" way, i.e. they're bitten in the backcountry and die before they can get appropriate medical treatment.

When you consider that millions of folks live in snake country, or travel thru it, EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR, what this means is that your chance of dying of a poisonous snakebite in this country are ridiculously small.

In Connecticut, they're smaller still.

That being said, just watch yer backs and keep an eye on granny.[/QUOTE]


Sorry, I forget to click on Quote button. So, Baltimore Jack, thats was your comments and maybe you can rephrase that. :D

Flash Hand

Flash Hand
07-28-2004, 17:17
Damn I am still awarkard with the use of White Blaze. Im still am idiot here. I cannot even delete the messages. All I want to quote one or two sentences instead all of them.

Flash Hand

smokymtnsteve
07-28-2004, 17:21
must be little bitty things

smokymtnsteve
07-28-2004, 17:24
When you consider that millions of folks live in snake country, or thru it, EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR, what this means is that your chance of dying of a poisonous snakebite in this country are ridiculously small.

In Connecticut, they're smaller still.

That being said, just watch yer backs and keep an eye on granny.

Like this???

ridgewalker777
07-28-2004, 17:48
Talk about "dangerous" animals makes excellent fodder for conversation around the campfire; bears, snakes, etc. I had several snarling raccouns terrify me last night very late as they searched in vain for food and bit holes in some water jugs outside and pawed around the outside of my tent...
As they say in chess, the threat is greater than the execution, actual danger is quite different than fear-based impulse. Some campers had a bear visit their site one morning last week at Greylock--they were too scared to act and the bear obligingly helped himself to a mess of food. I saw him haunting the area the next day, he was not a fearsome animal, could have been scared off with some effort said the guest host said.
As for statistics in "civilized" society I doubt they relate well to a wilderness that has been pretty well de-fanged in the last couple of hundred years...

Streamweaver
07-28-2004, 18:03
Talk about "dangerous" animals makes excellent fodder for conversation around the campfire; bears, snakes, etc. I had several snarling raccouns terrify me last night very late as they searched in vain for food and bit holes in some water jugs outside and pawed around the outside of my tent...
As they say in chess, the threat is greater than the execution, actual danger is quite different than fear-based impulse. Some campers had a bear visit their site one morning last week at Greylock--they were too scared to act and the bear obligingly helped himself to a mess of food. I saw him haunting the area the next day, he was not a fearsome animal, could have been scared off with some effort said the guest host said.
As for statistics in "civilized" society I doubt they relate well to a wilderness that has been pretty well de-fanged in the last couple of hundred years...
Some people never learn!! The campers are so afraid of bears yet they still refuse to use common sense and secure their food!! Go figure! Streamweaver

Flash Hand
07-28-2004, 22:01
Like this???


yes like this.. how can I do this?? LOL

Flash Hand :jump

ripple
07-29-2004, 07:06
Sure did Thought it was pretty funny!

Jack Tarlin
07-29-2004, 15:37
Re-Phrase:

Al Sharpton has a better chance of achieving the Democratic Nomination tonight than a hiker has of dying of snakebite in Connecticut.

All in all, I'd prefer the snakebite.

smokymtnsteve
07-29-2004, 15:49
Re-Phrase:

Al Sharpton has a better chance of achieving the Democratic Nomination tonight than a hiker has of dying of snakebite in Connecticut.

All in all, I'd prefer the snakebite.

I'll be danged Jack...we Agree :D

Flash Hand
07-29-2004, 18:15
Re-Phrase:

Al Sharpton has a better chance of achieving the Democratic Nomination tonight than a hiker has of dying of snakebite in Connecticut.

All in all, I'd prefer the snakebite.


haha.... wait... in few years, more and more snakes are humping each other and then you ll have to have the skills of Indiana Jones to walk through. Youll be standing next to Sharpton in 2008


Flash Hand :jump

SavageLlama
08-02-2004, 19:00
Update from CT newspaper..

http://www.registercitizen.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12566443&BRD=1652&PAG=461&dept_id=12530&rfi=6

Texas Dreamer
08-03-2004, 10:28
Although the risk of being bitten in the first place is very rare...please do not discount the health hazard of being bitten on an extremity. if you have ever seen someone's entire leg or arm turn black and swell to the point of actually bursting the skin if not slit by a doctor, you will never forget it. Rattlesnake bites are not something you get over quickly--you may think for a while dying would have been better, and I know people who have pain years down the line. Also, I have seen threads regarding diabetic hikers--rattlesnake anti-venon wreaks havoc on those who are insulin dependant. I don't know the science behind this, I just know some people, my uncle being one of them, who had this happen. I grew up in the area around Abilene and Sweetwater, Texas where thousands of rattlers are hunted each year for the famous Rattlesnake Roundup, with very little dent made in the population. I don't remember going more than two or three days in the summer without running into one, and I've known many people who have been bitten. It's true that with modern medicine, a death is very rare--but if you are bitten for some reason, don't fail to seek treatment because you've heard that people don't die from snakebites, people don't die from snakebites BECAUSE they seek treatment.

Oh, add "Hauling Hay" to the reasons people get bitten--not likely on the AT, but it is probably the main cause around here.

As far as myself personally, I am not really intimidated by snakes. I know how they behave, I know their typical habits, and what habits of ours might make them defensive. A bear, on the other hand would probably give me a serious start--I've never seen one, I wouldn't know an angry bear from a fat, happy bear, and I have really been paying attention to B Jack and others when you give good bear advice. It's all in what we are used to, I guess.

JP
08-03-2004, 14:47
I think most snake bites are accidental. If we know of areas where we should be more carefull it would improve our odds of not sitting on one. That may sound funny, but I know of a little boy that died after he sat on a log that had a rattle snake nest under it. This grandpa would have a hard time getting over that.

SavageLlama
08-05-2004, 16:07
New article doubts it was a rattlesnake bite.. altho it seems to have some inaccuracies..

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12627572&BRD=2303&PAG=461&dept_id=478976&rfi=6

Rain Man
08-05-2004, 19:58
New article doubts it was a rattlesnake bite..


AND ... points out that this snake bite wasn't even on the AT.

Rain Man

.

Herpn
08-06-2004, 01:55
Hey guys this is my first post.

I go to the AT to find Timbers, it is my passion. Just look where you are stepping and putting your hands. I carry a Sawyer but think it could cause more damage by Lysing Red Blood Cells. Any way.


Icemanat95 Good answerer. Glad to see there are some folks who know what they are saying!:) Are you into snakes?

SavageLlama Thanks for posting those stories from the Register Citizen, I was not sure if I was going to be able to find the article on it. Funny I was looking at the site and found it.

TexasDreamer No offense (I am new here) but I have heard that the Rattlesnake Round Up has wiped out so many spots that they have to collect the Rattlesnakes from other counties and even other states to get enough animals to put that event on. The local population must be in pretty bad shape. The snakes might be able to sustain a decent population if they were not desecrated annually. To have an event like that, that is open to the public is ridiculous, people bring their kids to see snakes Tortured, killed and eaten. Anyway I don't want to get on a rant.

Cheers,

Chuck Annicelli

Ridge
08-06-2004, 12:03
My worst ever experience with Rattlers (or any venomous snake) was in the Nantahala's. Wearing a headset listening to music I was climbing the AT, with head lowered, and bam, A coiled up huge rattler, with 9 rattlers going. I didn't see what had ticked the snake off, but I climbed rocks around the sucker and never wore another headset again. When I got to Stecoah Gap some day hikers had asked me If I'd seen the snake. They had gotten a stick and started messing with it and then ran on down the trail. Thanks alot.

Streamweaver
08-06-2004, 14:38
My worst ever experience with Rattlers (or any venomous snake) was in the Nantahala's. Wearing a headset listening to music I was climbing the AT, with head lowered, and bam, A coiled up huge rattler, with 9 rattlers going. I didn't see what had ticked the snake off, but I climbed rocks around the sucker and never wore another headset again. When I got to Stecoah Gap some day hikers had asked me If I'd seen the snake. They had gotten a stick and started messing with it and then ran on down the trail. Thanks alot.

Most snakes have very poor eyesight,so one hiker looks pretty much like the next. If somebody messes with that snake enough to make him feel threatened then he has no way of knowing if you were the one messing with him or not. Streamweaver

eyahiker
08-06-2004, 17:08
Just there in N CT (a week or so ago)and into MA, saw only one garter snake. Pretty hot during the days and my poles click nicely to warn critters I'm coming along the trail :-)

oruoja
08-07-2004, 02:08
Remembering by '79 hike I recalled a guidebook warning about rattlesnakes in Ct. I dug out the guidebook (Publication No 21, Third Edition) and just north of the NY/Ct line at Schaghticoke Mt at mile .073 was a location called "Rattlesnake Den" which the guidebook referred to as "an area reputed to be infested with snakes." I didn't see any, but the reference sure peaked my awareness. I don't think the trail follows the same route these days.

Texas Dreamer
08-10-2004, 09:01
Chuck--
I guarantee the population is not decimated. My folks have had more than ten rattlers in the house yard this summer, that's a small area abut the size of a typical yard in a town. The dog was bitten last year, my dad just got away from one under the apricot tree just a few weeks ago. Now multiply that by the actual wild areas of the ranch and you begin to see the picture. Taking down the population of a critter, especially a dangerous critter, is not always a bad thing. This job used to be done by natural predators in that area, now with fewer predators--we have to do it. I believe in conservation of species as much as anyone else, but conservation can also mean wildlife management, not just "leave 'em to multiply". As far as Sweetwater goes, I hope that if the numbers really do start falling off, the loss of profitablility will bring it to a natural end.

This is similar to the endless debate about deer, if left to multiply without any natural predators, we would have far more problems.

can...open
worms...everywhere

MOWGLI
08-10-2004, 09:19
Chuck--
I guarantee the population is not decimated. My folks have had more than ten rattlers in the house yard this summer, that's a small area abut the size of a typical yard in a town. The dog was bitten last year, my dad just got away from one under the apricot tree just a few weeks ago. Now multiply that by the actual wild areas of the ranch and you begin to see the picture. Taking down the population of a critter, especially a dangerous critter, is not always a bad thing. This job used to be done by natural predators in that area, now with fewer predators--we have to do it. I believe in conservation of species as much as anyone else, but conservation can also mean wildlife management, not just "leave 'em to multiply". As far as Sweetwater goes, I hope that if the numbers really do start falling off, the loss of profitablility will bring it to a natural end.

This is similar to the endless debate about deer, if left to multiply without any natural predators, we would have far more problems.

can...open
worms...everywhere

Listen here Dubya, what you do on your Ranch in Texas is none of my business, but I'm wondering why you've taken to mountain biking instead of hiking? Hiking has a lesser impact on the enviro... Never mind.

Regarding your dog, keep him safe from them rattlers. There are some dangerous pretzels out there. You need that pooch to keep you safe from them.

I can also understand why you'd want to eliminate those snakes with the girls spending so much time stumbling around the ranch. You know, school is out, and kids will be kids during the summer months.

Regarding your Dad, tell him if he keeps skydiving, he should be safe from snakes. As far as I know, snakes still can't fly (Dick doesn't have a pilots license, does he?). I hope your Dad makes it to his 86th birthday safe & sound.

Seems like the former First Lady is the only one in the family with any sense. I guess it's 'cause she spends most of her time baking pies in the kitchen. Tell Barbara we all said hello.

Last thing Dubya, will you be hiking in 2005? Rumor has it you might have some time on your hands.

Texas Dreamer
08-10-2004, 13:31
Dubya doesn't have a ranch, he has an estate. That's where rich guys go for the weekend, to play at "being a cowboy." If he did step on a rattler he'd probably have someone there to take care of it for him. I'm sure he's never pulled a calf at 2 in the morning, or hauled hay in 100 degree temps, or taken a sponge bath because the wind hasn't blown in weeks and the windmill's not pumping enough for both cattle and people (guess which is most important?). The area in question isn't valuable "real estate", like in his area, it's full of hardworking people who have to calculate acres to the cow and not cattle to the acre, people who watch the price of wheat and cotton, and pray for rain. Sorry about the defensiveness folks, but that comparison gave me the creeps like no rattler ever could.

MOWGLI
08-10-2004, 13:44
Sorry about the defensiveness folks, but that comparison gave me the creeps like no rattler ever could.

I didn't mean to offend Dreamer. I just felt satirical this morning.

Rain Man
08-10-2004, 16:12
... This job used to be done by natural predators in that area, now with fewer predators--we have to do it. ...

What wuz their natural predator?

Texas Dreamer
08-10-2004, 17:50
Mowgli, all is forgiven.

Rain Man, Roadrunners (very scarce, now), coyotes, different weather patterns. My Gran-Dad used to tell a story about seeing a bobcat get one once, but there were always people around who didn't believe it. I don't know other than that, I'd have to defer to the scientist types.

The road runners and the horned-toads--now those are critters we used to see every day and took for granted. I can't even remember the last time I saw a "hornytoad", and the roadrunners are getting mightly hard to spot these days as well. There weren't many days went by in my childhood that I didn't have a horned toad on a leash (feed sack string) watching him eat at a red ant bed. Mom was smart, and always put a time limit on the captivity of such pets: 30 minutes if you didn't know what to feed it, two hours if you did.

I don't know why the horned toad is dying off. I've heard a theory that seems plausible, that the fire ant invasion has had something to do with it. Whether this is because they are killing out the red ant colonies, or maybe the horned toads attempting to eat the fire ants in the same slow docile method they use on the red ants only to be aggresively attacked I couldn't say.

Streamweaver
08-10-2004, 18:39
Hawks and Eagles will occasionally take snakes as prey(including rattlers) Owls also like snakes. Ive never seen Bobcats eat rattlers in the wild but I have seen them do it on nature shows. Actually the main cause of Rattler fatalities and the reason rattlers developed the rattles oh so long ago was the huge number of Buffallo roaming the praries! Imagine sitting there minding your own buisness ,when a thousand Bison come strolling by!! Even though they arent actively hunting snakes ,Rattlers cant always get out of the way in time to not be squashed!! And though they arent native predetors ,wild hogs also eat venemous snakes ,though last I heard they(the experts)havnt figured out wether its because they have a natural immunity to the venom or because their skin is so thick the snakes fangs cant penetrate. Streamweaver

Herpn
08-12-2004, 01:09
Deer are a different subject. I agree they need to be hunted. The problem in my area with deer is that there are no spots to hunt them. They live in peoples back yards. I have been to Texas and everyone I talk to says the at snakes population in Texas is a fraction of what it was 20 or even 10 years ago. But I understand how much land there is in Texas and right now I can say the Western diamondback in not in trouble in any way but in areas where they are heavily collected or killed the population is reduced. Now, it has the ability to bounce back but it takes time. The population without any human disturbance will stay at a number that the area allows. The more mice and rodents the more snakes. The less food the less snakes. So you could say the inverse. The less snakes the more mice the more snakes the less mice.

The snakes can not over populate.

Thanks for making me think. :)

Cheers,

Chuck

Texas Dreamer
08-12-2004, 09:57
Maybe we ought to start a new thread for animal discussions, this is getting interesting.
It occurred to me while thinking about all this yesterday that my opinion about the numbers of snakes might be skewed by geography/geology. The homeplace I have mentioned sits on a ridge of hills which you'll see on a map running parallel to I-20, southwest of Abilene about 30 miles. This hilly canyon land has a lot of deep shallow caves--not the sort you could actually crawl into, but 6 to 12 inches deep and going back incalculable distances. These hills are sort of built up of layers of these. These caves and tunnels are so deep that the usual method of snake hunting (I won't give details, lest I offend) is ineffective and can't even reach the dens. So, there are probably a lot more per acre in this area than in a lot of places, and I probably don't have as good a concept of numbers in other areas of Texas--it's a big place after all.

About wild hogs, we have a lot of trouble with them here, are they just as bad for you folks in the East? They tear up fences, and dig holes the cattle step in, and root up trees, etc. But they sure are delicious! (sorry SMS, no offense meant)

Rain Man
08-12-2004, 13:13
The snakes can not over populate.

Right. To my understanding, snakes grow (or not) and reproduce (or not) based on the food that is available.

That helps a lot when you are breeding pet snakes, as my youngest daughter is doing.

Rain Man

.

Herpn
08-15-2004, 10:39
Texas Dreamer, you are are correct. I understand what you are saying. Many times a Den is a singe hole in the ground and there can be anywhere from 1-1000 or more snakes in there. When there are not many of nooks and crannies in the area there are generally few spots for snakes to go, so they all go in one spot. This is not good when the snakes are being Hunted. Pumping gas down one of these holes can wipe out a huge part of the local population. Now the area you are speaking of sounds like the snakes are much more dispersed. This makes it much harder to hunt or kill large numbers at a time.



Hogs. I live in CT and we have no wild hogs. Down South (SC and FL)they can cause some problems but I am sure not as bad as in Texas.



Cheers,



Chuck