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copythat
07-27-2004, 12:15
Local TV's reporting a N/B thru-hiker called Alleghany was hit by a snake in Salisbury CT. (No ID on the herp.) EMS airlifted (!) him to Hartford, where they ruled it was a "dry" bite (no venom). He's said to be back on the trail.

This state has sizeable populations of two venomous snakes, the timber rattlesnake (Crotalus horridus) and the northern cottonhead (Agkistrodon contortrix). The non-venomous northern water snake (also found in CT) will bite defensively, too, but sounds like a long shot in this case due to the orientation of its six rows of teeth and its geographical preferences.

Yeah, I know, snakes are commonplace other places, but it's a pigpile of news for the quiet Northwest Hills of the Nutmeg State.

sgtjinx
07-27-2004, 12:25
I really don't know which is worst snakes or gators. I have hiked up to gators out in Florida Trail.

ridgewalker777
07-27-2004, 13:24
I passed Alleghany yesterday less than five miles north of Salisbury as I was going south--he said nothing about it to me though we spoke five or so minutes...I've seen black snakes slithering around bog bridges over water, was wondering if they might be water mocassins?

grrickar
07-27-2004, 13:32
Could have been water mocs. I have saw a lot of black colored snakes around water, and not all of them are moccassins. A friend of mine who was into snakes stated that most 'water' snakes are aggressive. That point was not lost on me when I caught a black snake one day and gave him a call. It turned out to be non-poisionous, but it bit him repeatedly as he held it (small snake so not much damage). I would steer clear of any snake, regardless. Cotton-mouths are so named for the white lining in their mouths. I'd rather see pictures of one in a book than go around checking their mouths to see...;)

copythat
07-27-2004, 13:50
I have saw a lot of black colored snakes around water, and not all of them are moccassins ... ;)

grrickar, you and your alabama experience hit it right on the money. Connecticut has no water mocs, but does have the Northern water snake, a dark-colored non-poisonous snake that is armed with lots of teeth for grabbing prey, and will bite AGGRESSIVELY, in defense. They tend to stay near water. Don't know where Alleghany was when he met the serpent.

Streamweaver
07-27-2004, 13:55
There are no watermoccasins in CT!! They live in the south, Northern watersnakes are often confused with water moccasins. Streamweaver

frankcornbread
07-27-2004, 14:49
Don't know why but got snakes on the brain today. Posted some rattler and copperhead links in another thread and found theses water moccasin links while poking around.
http://www.wf.net/~snake/moccasin.htm
http://www.pestproducts.com/cottonmouths.htm This one shows the geographic range.
Looks like the AT is spared at least one menace ;)
Now we can worry soley about bears, mice, rattlers and copperheads, ticks, mosquitos and of course, ELWOOD.

Rain Man
07-27-2004, 16:18
Local TV's reporting a N/B thru-hiker called Alleghany was hit by a snake in Salisbury CT. (No ID on the herp.) EMS airlifted (!) him to Hartford, where they ruled it was a "dry" bite (no venom). ...

So, lots of the usual hype once again. The news media needs to get its head screwed on tighter. Buncha shallow excitable dummies!

Rain Man

.

grrickar
07-27-2004, 16:47
Anyone carry one on the trail? I currently do not own one, but have seen the yellow kits in Wal-Mart - I think they are named the 'Extractor' or something and have a large yellow syringe and some cups to draw out the venom. I think this is the only 'widely-accepted' method of bite treatment since tournequets and spit-and-suck methods have been frowned upon.

Blue Jay
07-28-2004, 09:16
Anyone carry one on the trail? I currently do not own one, but have seen the yellow kits in Wal-Mart - I think they are named the 'Extractor' or something and have a large yellow syringe and some cups to draw out the venom. I think this is the only 'widely-accepted' method of bite treatment since tournequets and spit-and-suck methods have been frowned upon.

Actually it's no longer "widely-accepted". Emergency room doctors would rather you did nothing and not wasted any time getting there. Normally I go with self treatment but I would not in this case.

smokymtnsteve
07-28-2004, 09:22
correct again BLUE JAY...

i know your not scared of bear, snakes or the man eating plants..but R U scared of CATS?

orangebug
07-28-2004, 09:29
Actually it's no longer "widely-accepted". Emergency room doctors would rather you did nothing and not wasted any time getting there. Normally I go with self treatment but I would not in this case.
I think he meant the Sawyer extractor. It is more designed for insect stings but can be useful in snake bites. Few folks carry one. You have to keep track of several suction cups, choose the correct size, figure out how to attach and work the pump, and then get on your feet and off to the ER.

The problem is that with a rattlesnake bite, medical evacuation is required regardless of the initial treatment or beleive whether it is a dry bite or venomous. Ideally, the victim will have assistance with evacuation, as you would like to splint the limb and avoid movement and "pumping" the venom to the general circulation. Rarely is the ideal possible.

Hence, if you have received a rattlesnake bite, assume that your hike is over for the year and get appropriate care. If you are lucky, you might be back on the trail in just a few days.

Bill...

grrickar
07-28-2004, 09:41
So now the logic is no treatment, just haul tail to the ER? In a remote area I would think that while effecting a rescue you would do yourself some good to try and extract what you could. It is likely that the person would be scared after getting bit, thus the heart rate will be elevated, plus the fact that if there are in a remote area they are either going to have to be carried or limp out under their own power - which again, would raise their heart rate and help pump the venom through their system more readily. My take would be to still try self-treatment, and I can't see it taking that much time to pull out a Sawyer pump and attempt to draw out the venom. I am not speaking from experience here, but I would assume most small towns do not have a hospital, or even a 24hr clinic, so getting to proper care would mean a hitch to the hospital down the road.

Alligator
07-28-2004, 10:24
Here's a link to information on bites, provided by NOLS

http://www.nols.edu/wmi/articles/archive/snakes.shtml.

I'd like to hear some more thoughts on this subject, given that I almost stepped on a rattlesnake. Any wilderness responders? Assume subject is bitten.

I would guess that a solo hiker would need to calmly find an immediate exit point to seek treatment.

I have seen estimates of 2-8 hrs for onset of symptoms. Given a pair of hikers, should the unbitten one seek help, or should both exit the trail?

IMO, I estimate that should I be injured beyond mobility, that help will come no earlier than a few hours and could possibly not arrive until overnight/next day, given the circumstances.

frankcornbread
07-28-2004, 10:42
I have seen a description of a method of compression wrapping and splinting to localize the venom. It is used in the Australian outback where treatment can be very far away. Part of this treatment, which is designed to slow lymphatic flow and not blood flow, suggests the victim NOT move for 20-30 minutes in order to lower heart rate levels and prepare for evac. This time period seems to give ample opportunity to use the Sawyer as well as compression wrap and possibly give yourself a better chance. The Sawyer is not that complicated, really. That said, there is another school of thought that says better to let the venom diffuse so as to do less severe tissue damage. Personally, I will carry a Sawyer. Its really not that large (see my previous post) and a small ace bandage just in case. The ace can have many other uses as well, limited only by ones imagination. I posted in the other "Snake" thread some links I found yesterday regarding snake bite first aid, one of which details the "Australian" method.
Hope this helps.
FC

Herpn
08-06-2004, 02:10
Frankcornbread I carry the Sawyer and have used it on Bee stings. I think it might make it worse. I may cause more swelling, I noticed when I use it on Bee stings, the spot seems to swell more. By putting it on you might cause more damage to the local area.

Thanks,

Chuck Annicelli

saimyoji
12-07-2004, 23:53
Another good link on snake bites: http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic540.htmTreatment appears to depend on how far you are from medical attention. If near a phone to call for evac, lower the bite below the heart, wash it, pressure wrap and wait for help. Of course try to ID the snake for the docs: antivenins are usually highly specific. If you're more than 30 min away from an ER, your actions become more crucial. Of course, potency of venom depends on the snake species. Young snakes are generally as dangerous as mature snakes.

NotYet
12-08-2004, 13:51
I've been involved in a few evacuations in the woods...they aren't generally speedy events. Although I've never been involved in a evac due to a snake bite, I'd want to try to keep the patient as calm as possible. I would want to begin the care for the patient while still in the woods, because it could take quite awhile to get to the nearest trailhead much less get to definitive care. If the patient was envenomated, the Sawyer Extractor will help get some of the venom out, plus it can help calm the person because something "official-looking" is being done to help. Then I'd wrap the area and slowly help the person out (if he or she is capable of walking).

When I am with groups during Spring, Summer and Fall, I carry the Sawyer Extractor. It is quite easy to use, but like with any gear, I would suggest that if you do have one, take it out and see how it works at home. This will make it much less complicated when you're in the field.

I've used the extractor at home on myself on yellow jacket and wasp stings. I usually experience severe local swelling, but in the instances I remembered to try the extractor, the swelling and pain seemed much less severe.

minnesotasmith
12-09-2004, 16:01
Less than fifteen bucks, and only weighs 4 ounces.

http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=692&parent_category_rn=4500542&vcat=REI_SEARCH