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beas
09-14-2009, 17:07
Me and several others are doing a section hike from Franklin to the eastern side of the Smokies. Not enough milage on the east side to be called a thru hiker by definition for the National Park Service. The shelters we have planned out have some issues with being already reserved and some are not. We can't get around the ones already full.
Does the thru hiker title only stand from April 1 - June 1 as I have read? Can we just fill out the permit on the western side and claim to be going all the way to virginia and stay outside the shelters that are full?
What is the best advice that is somewhat the right thing to do. We have planned this trip for over a year the first trip was postponed due to death in the family.
thanks

jorhawle
09-14-2009, 17:11
When are you leaving? If you will be in the Smokies on a weekend, yes the shelters may be full. But even if they are telling you that they will be full on a weekday...I would take a gamble. Generally there are a large amount of hikers that don't show up to fulfill their shelter request.

beas
09-14-2009, 17:16
I,ve already called and some are already full. I just dont want to get there and recieve a ticket from a ranger that was called by a ridgerunner for overcrowding. I am sure that there is a chance that we fill out the permit at Fontana and someone see that the shelters are full and follow up by finding us???? Not sure if that happens or not.
thanks ahead of time.

beas
09-14-2009, 17:27
i failed to mention i would rather stay in my hammock outside the shelter. that was my hope is in the spring was to arrive late in the day and botabing botaboom outside i get to sleep.

max patch
09-14-2009, 17:29
The GSMNP is the worst section of the entire AT to hike.

I think you know what the "right" thing to do is.

Yeah, you can lie and claim to be going to VA and be an official "thru-hiker" as defined by the park. The park has the rules that it does as it is woefully overcrowded. And if everybody lied....

I'd pick a different place to hike if it was me. I haven't been back to the AT in the park since my thru.

Cannibal
09-14-2009, 17:38
Get some maps beas. There are some very nice backcountry campgrounds not far off the AT. Much, much, much nicer than the shelters. Only disadvantage is you'll have to hike down to them and then back up in the morning. No restrictions on hammocks and usually right next to good water sources.

beas
09-14-2009, 17:48
i know i know you are correct Max Patch. i just wanted to get this section done due to logistics it would be really easy to get done. my family lives in Seivier county.
I more than likely will do the next 100 plus miles then flip back this spring to get the smokies during the thrus season when it will be easy to slide in wit them and stay outside the shelters due to the rush.

Alligator
09-14-2009, 20:56
Get some maps beas. There are some very nice backcountry campgrounds not far off the AT. Much, much, much nicer than the shelters. Only disadvantage is you'll have to hike down to them and then back up in the morning. No restrictions on hammocks and usually right next to good water sources.I'll second that, when my buddy and I went through we stayed at I think at least two of the backcountry sites. You might be able to work it out that way, some are within 2 miles of the trail.

Chaco Taco
09-14-2009, 21:04
If it was Thruhiker season, just wait til it fills up then set up. If you are near any roads Fontana, Big Creek, Newfound, Clingmans etc. you run a greater risk of Rangers or Runners.

sbbtool
09-14-2009, 21:25
I was just in the Smokies on the AT last week. When I arrived I called and registered at all the shelters I thought I would use. The guy on the phone told me I got the last spot in the shelters. When I actually got to some of the shelters there was tons of extra room, and twice I was the only one there.

I'd just take the chance and go. Worse case you sleep outside.

sliderule
09-14-2009, 21:27
Does the thru hiker title only stand from April 1 - June 1 as I have read?

No. That period, more or less, is when several shelter slots are held out for thruhikers. You can be a thru hiker anytime.


Can we just fill out the permit on the western side and claim to be going all the way to virginia and stay outside the shelters that are full?


You could.

max patch
09-14-2009, 21:40
I'd just take the chance and go. Worse case you sleep outside.

Worse case is a $5,000 fine. Per person.

Although, as a practical matter, budget a couple hundred dollars per person if caught and fined.

jorhawle
09-14-2009, 22:01
If you can plan your trip to not be staying in either Icewater Springs or Double Springs Gap I would about bet that you aren't going to have any troubles...LOL, of course I wouldn't be $5000 on it!!!

humunuku
09-14-2009, 22:05
I was talking to one of the ridgerunners a few months ago - he was saying that a bunch of "thru hikers" were still passing thru the park. He said there are a bunch of people saying that they are hiking the required distance before and after the park, but he said he thinks they are just saying that so they don't have to get a reservation. Didn't seem like he was going to lay down the law on them.

How would they really know if you started hiking 100 miles before you got to the park and continued on another 100 miles (or whatever the requires distance is?)? Just say your thru hiking to damascus and go have fun.

sliderule
09-14-2009, 22:05
Although, as a practical matter, budget a couple hundred dollars per person if caught and fined.

As a practical matter, having a thru hiker permit is all you need to be in compliance. As long as you don't camp outside a shelter that isn't full.

beas
09-14-2009, 23:02
Thanks for all the input, I really hated to be dishonest. but dangit man this trips been put off once due to the death in my family now missing out on reservations by a day.
We were gonna ride the thru crowd wave during this past spring. We are section hiking each year 100 plus miles at a wack.
Like I said we may just skip this section till next spring and get on to Erwin this year not sure yet.
Any other advice would be welcomed
Thanks
BEAS

Doughnut
09-15-2009, 05:36
Beas,
I hiked the park last month, made reservations, however, I got with another group and we did not stick to the reservations.

If you plan to hike say 12 miles, and end up only walking 8, what are they gonna do? Kick you out of the park for walking too slow? (ShuckStack KICKED MY BUTT!!!!) After that, i could either bust tail to get "back on schedule" or I could enjoy the park and enjoy my week.
The other people planned 2 short days of 6 miles, and got ahead of schedule.

I believe the intent is to limit the number of people along the most used portion of the park to attempt to limit human impact.

I met a ridge runner and a hog hunter, both were extremely nice, the runner asked if we had permits, and that was it. Of course, I mentioned that someone had left trash at the previous shelter and I was carrying it out.

DoughNut

Pedaling Fool
09-15-2009, 08:33
I've heard of time limits for thru-hikers through GSMNP, but I've never seen it in writing; if a park employee told me there was a time limit I would ask to see it in writing. The reason is, govt employees are notorious for not knowing the regulations, many just work off word-of-mouth.

Since their use of thru-hiker is in respect to GSMNP and not the AT, is just more of a reason I can't see why they would place a time limit.

sliderule
09-15-2009, 08:46
I've heard of time limits for thru-hikers through GSMNP, but I've never seen it in writing.

I have seen it in writing; the limit is seven days. There is also a rule that says the permit is invalidated if the hiker leaves the AT. So, technically, every "thru hiker" that goes to Gatlinburg is in violation if they return to the trail on their original permit. Practically, the NPS "looks the other way" on that issue.

Remember, you are dealing with the government. It's all about bureacracy and paperwork. Have the paperwork in order and you will have nothing to worry about.

gearfreak
09-15-2009, 09:04
How would they really know if you started hiking 100 miles before you got to the park and continued on another 100 miles (or whatever the requires distance is?)? Just say your thru hiking to damascus and go have fun.

In my case, they might figure it out by my truck being parked at Big Creek Ranger Station for a week. This is the suggestion of my shuttle and the backcountry info office due to vandalism at the trailhead and at I-40. I'm hoping and praying that there's some overcrowding so I can politely give up my spot in the shelter and tent! :cool:

Pedaling Fool
09-15-2009, 09:16
I have seen it in writing; the limit is seven days. There is also a rule that says the permit is invalidated if the hiker leaves the AT. So, technically, every "thru hiker" that goes to Gatlinburg is in violation if they return to the trail on their original permit. Practically, the NPS "looks the other way" on that issue.

Remember, you are dealing with the government. It's all about bureacracy and paperwork. Have the paperwork in order and you will have nothing to worry about.
I meant to say time frame. Is it the policy of the park to allow hikers to register as thru-hikers only during a certain time of year, say April thru July, or whatever.

I've heard some say that, but I've never seen it in writing and if they did it would be difficult on SOBO'ers

Gray Blazer
09-15-2009, 09:17
Talk to Curtis at Standing Bear about leaving your truck there. It's right at I-40.

One time I was staying at a shelter, tri-corner, and when I announced I was going to set up my tent, I received the most baleful glares from everyone. I dutifully slept in the shelter like a good sheeple.

sliderule
09-15-2009, 09:51
I meant to say time frame. Is it the policy of the park to allow hikers to register as thru-hikers only during a certain time of year, say April thru July, or whatever.

I've heard some say that, but I've never seen it in writing and if they did it would be difficult on SOBO'ers

See post #11.

Pedaling Fool
09-15-2009, 10:03
See post #11.
:datz............. :o .

sliderule
09-15-2009, 10:55
In my case, they might figure it out by my truck being parked at Big Creek Ranger Station for a week. This is the suggestion of my shuttle and the backcountry info office due to vandalism at the trailhead and at I-40. I'm hoping and praying that there's some overcrowding so I can politely give up my spot in the shelter and tent! :cool:

Only those hikers with a thru hiker permit are allowed to camp outside a shelter. And only if the shelter is full.

As far as your truck goes, we are not dealing with CSI Miami here. The NPS does not have a hiker/vehicle correlation task force.

Blissful
09-15-2009, 13:22
Like I said we may just skip this section till next spring and get on to Erwin this year not sure yet.
Any other advice would be welcomed
Thanks
BEAS

The Erwin plan sounds like a great idea. Why risk fines, ridge runners and the feeling of guilt and dishonesty to ruin a hike?

Next time just plan ahead so you get your reservations in.

gearfreak
09-15-2009, 14:00
Only those hikers with a thru hiker permit are allowed to camp outside a shelter. And only if the shelter is full.

As far as your truck goes, we are not dealing with CSI Miami here. The NPS does not have a hiker/vehicle correlation task force.

So, you're saying that if a thru-hiker preferred my space in a full shelter and I were to tent, that somehow a ranger or ridgerunner couldn't rationalize that? :-?

sliderule
09-15-2009, 17:21
So, you're saying that if a thru-hiker preferred my space in a full shelter and I were to tent, that somehow a ranger or ridgerunner couldn't rationalize that? :-?

My statement simply concerned the regulation. It contained no speculation whatsoever as to how a particular government employee might behave on a particular day or in a particular circumstance. I suspect that no rational person would have drawn such an inference.

For the record, ridgerunners are not government employees nor do they have the authority to enforce any rule or regulation. All they can do is to attempt to educate hikers about the rules. As illustrated here, that can be quite a challenge.

gearfreak
09-15-2009, 17:35
My statement simply concerned the regulation. It contained no speculation whatsoever as to how a particular government employee might behave on a particular day or in a particular circumstance. I suspect that no rational person would have drawn such an inference.

For the record, ridgerunners are not government employees nor do they have the authority to enforce any rule or regulation. All they can do is to attempt to educate hikers about the rules. As illustrated here, that can be quite a challenge.

Get back on your meds. :cool:

beas
09-15-2009, 18:13
The Erwin plan sounds like a great idea. Why risk fines, ridge runners and the feeling of guilt and dishonesty to ruin a hike?

Next time just plan ahead so you get your reservations in.

i believe that is just what we will do. i hate to lie just drives me nuts telling my kids one thing and doing another.
i hate to admitt it but that is still what we will be doing in the spring if we just ride the thru hiker wave. its just druing the thru season there is just not much diference in 2 more hikers sleeping in a tent or a shelter if there is room.
we tried to make reservations but just a dollar late, you can only reserve spots 30 days out and i was just a day late. oh well we'll get it done eventually.
thanks
beas

bpitt
09-15-2009, 21:18
Just another fine example of gov't regulation.

SMSP
11-01-2009, 21:39
My recent stay at Icewater had a total of 15 hikers. One fella was a thru hiker and a hammock user, so he set-up his hammock. Obviously, some didnt have permits. Lets see, the hiker numbers were a group of 6, 2, 2, 1 and 3. There was plenty of room, but alot dang snoring.

SMSP

Lone Wolf
11-01-2009, 21:46
the last time i was at icewater springs shelter was with sgt. rock. the shelter was empty. he hammocked, i tented

Jack Tarlin
11-01-2009, 21:54
Actually, Sliderule, ridgerunners are indeed hired, trained, and supervised by federal employees, i.e. the Park or Forest Service, and while they are not considered law-enforcement officers, they can't force anyone to obey Park rules and regulations.......but they can certainly report those who flout them, and this they will indeed do.

So you might want to view these people with more respect.

Digger'02
11-02-2009, 12:42
Just to clarify, the ridgerunners are hired by the ATC and opperate more like Sliderule suggested. Although they talk till they are blue in the face about LNT and stuff, I am convinced that their biggest impact on the trail is carrying out over 1,120 lbs of OTHER PEOPLES TRASH from the backcountry annually.

I mean, come on. get a permit, get a reservation. Its like 1% of the AT and gets a nuts ammount of use. The rules are there for a reason, anyone who went through icewater in the 70's knows that its way better looking now than it was. Be a good citizen. Shelters suck, we all know that. If the general hiking public acted like they knew what the heck was going on, we wouldn't have to use them, or privies. But overall, there are enough folks in the general hiking public who act like complete nimrods to make the rules a requirement for RESOURCE PROTECTION, which takes priority over RECREATION MANAGMENT even in the park for obvious reasons.

You want to tent? Volunteer! its hard enough keeping that place looking nice with people leaving on average 15 wet sleeping bags in the shelters every year, tearing up steps to burn the material and pooping in the center of the privy floor without folks suggesting that they will avoid the Smokies because they don't want to follow the rules. Good influences are what we need out there keeping dunder-headed ninnys from fouling this up.

Sorry to rant...Tricorner privy is now full and closed and if I don't find some people to shovel it out, the most remote shelter on the AT is going to is going to start looking like Madison Square Garden after the Celtics win the championship (full of "confetti"....)

Rain Man
11-02-2009, 13:36
... i hate to lie just drives me nuts telling my kids one thing and doing another....

I think you've answered your own question and passed the "good character" test to boot!

Rain:sunMan

.

Rain Man
11-02-2009, 13:42
Sorry to rant...Tricorner privy is now full and closed and if I don't find some people to shovel it out, the most remote shelter on the AT is going to is going to start looking like Madison Square Garden after the Celtics win the championship (full of "confetti"....)

Digger, don't apologize for the rant. I read so much pseudo-authoritative stuff on here by "keyboard experts" that is speculation and guesswork and highly opinionated BS.

It's NICE to hear from someone who actually KNOWS and who "walks the walk."

THANKS for sharing what it's actually like and what actually happens. We need to hear from a lot more trail maintainers on WhiteBlaze. IMHO.

Rain:sunMan

.

sherrill
11-02-2009, 14:14
Madison Square Garden after the Celtics win the championship (full of "confetti"....)

Boston Garden, maybe? No chance for the Knicks. ;)

Digger'02
11-02-2009, 15:36
right, I always make that mistake. But a lot of toilet paper everywhere. Yall get the drift.