Bees/ Yellow-jackets

[jorhawle]

How bad are the yellowjackets along the trail in the Smokies in late September? I know that here in Indiana, late September and early October, you generally don't go in the woods or in fields because of yellow jackets. What can I expect in the Smokies? What about wasps in the shelters?

[Tipi Walter]

They are very active in Sept and Oct due to cooler temps causing them to be in a frenzy of activity to get their nests ready for winter. Most of my worst stings are this time of year.

I just got back from a trip south of the Smokies and kept my eyeballs open for the little basturdos. Neat thing is, the wild pigs are eating up all their nests and digging them out of the ground. I passed many large ripped apart nests and was dang thankful for the snouted wonder-pigs. They also eat up the trailside rattlesnakes. Helpful mammals in my mind. Would I curtail a trip just because of the yellow jackets? No way. Just backpack at a slow pace, try to keep your stomping foot vibrations down, and look off the trailsides for their telltale nests.

[NoGaHiker]

Hiked a section of the Pinhoti trail in GA, this past weekend. Stepped on a nest. Little bastards got me 7 times. Keep a close eye out, I didn't see them until too late.

[Tipi Walter]

Did you do a short sprint wearing a pack? It's amazing how fast I can move with 70 pounds on my back.

[barefoot]

My 18 year old son was hiking with me last weekend and stepped on a yellow jacket nest and was stung 6 times. The family went into a panic! I was stung 19 times in the woods 4 weeks ago and ended up in the emergency room.

[berninbush]

Neat thing is, the wild pigs are eating up all their nests and digging them out of the ground. I passed many large ripped apart nests and was dang thankful for the snouted wonder-pigs. They also eat up the trailside rattlesnakes. Helpful mammals in my mind.

Ok, I'm going to stir up a hornets' nest here (pun intended!) just 'cause I'm feeling ornery today!

Tipi, in many threads I've seen you bemoan the way that human interactions "ruin" the wilderness and change the natural ecosystem. Your worldview, as far as I can tell, is that nature minus humankind is perfect, pristine, and beautiful, and any alteration we make in some way spoils it. Your aim seems to be to sidle through the world leaving as little trace of your own passing as possible. Forgive me if I'm misrepresenting you... I'm going on what I've seen you say.

Well, the Invasive Species Specialist Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUCN_Species_Survival_Commission) lists pigs as one of the 100 worst species introduced by humans to areas where they do not naturally occur, including North America. Feral hogs along the trail are descendants of domestic pigs that escaped from farms somewhere along the way, and they have a big impact on the Appalachian wilderness, including destroying the native wasps and yellowjackets who were part of the pre-Columbus ecosystem!

In my own worldview, there's no such thing as a static "balance of nature" to be upset by mankind-- nature itself is fundamentally unbalanced and always changing, with different species constantly arriving on the local stage and then departing when their time is done. Humans are part of that dynamic process, not a threat to it. So I don't think feral hogs eating yellowjacket nests is a bad thing... but I'm curious about how your statement fits into your world view (if I've understood it correctly).

[sliderule]

Humans are part of that dynamic process, not a threat to it.

The dynamic process itself can be a threat. Just ask a dinosaur.

And if it were not for humans, the "process" would be a lot less dynamic,

[The Solemates]

they got me in the backyard sunday, but only 1 sting

they got us on the PA mid state trail as well...i only got a couple stings but my hiking partner got them at least a dozen times. we sprinted uphill with full packs for nearly half a mile. its amazing how adrenaline will kick in

[Tipi Walter]

My 18 year old son was hiking with me last weekend and stepped on a yellow jacket nest and was stung 6 times. The family went into a panic! I was stung 19 times in the woods 4 weeks ago and ended up in the emergency room.

19 times?! What the heck happened? Were you mowing/doing yard work or out on a backpacking trip? The worst I ever got hit was 5 times in Pisgah along Upper Creek by the Mountains to Sea trail. The worst single sting was when one fell into a soda I was drinking at a campsite(I saved a ginger ale for the end of the trip), and a little mofo dropped down into it and I got it in my mouth and it stung me on the inner lip. Hurt pretty good. On a very recent trip I was camping on the North Fork of the Citico when a bald faced hornet(white faced hornet)got caught up in my left sideburn and nailed me on the cheek. Throbbed pretty good.


Ok, I'm going to stir up a hornets' nest here (pun intended!) just 'cause I'm feeling ornery today!

Tipi, in many threads I've seen you bemoan the way that human interactions "ruin" the wilderness and change the natural ecosystem. Your worldview, as far as I can tell, is that nature minus humankind is perfect, pristine, and beautiful, and any alteration we make in some way spoils it. Your aim seems to be to sidle through the world leaving as little trace of your own passing as possible. Forgive me if I'm misrepresenting you... I'm going on what I've seen you say.

Well, the Invasive Species Specialist Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUCN_Species_Survival_Commission) lists pigs as one of the 100 worst species introduced by humans to areas where they do not naturally occur, including North America. Feral hogs along the trail are descendants of domestic pigs that escaped from farms somewhere along the way, and they have a big impact on the Appalachian wilderness, including destroying the native wasps and yellowjackets who were part of the pre-Columbus ecosystem!

In my own worldview, there's no such thing as a static "balance of nature" to be upset by mankind-- nature itself is fundamentally unbalanced and always changing, with different species constantly arriving on the local stage and then departing when their time is done. Humans are part of that dynamic process, not a threat to it. So I don't think feral hogs eating yellowjacket nests is a bad thing... but I'm curious about how your statement fits into your world view (if I've understood it correctly).

I just hope the Invasive Species Specialist Group puts the European immigrants to this land at the top of their list. Are they not an invasive species? Many types of pre-Columbian mammals and animals have been wiped out since 1492 by the introduction of the boat-people from Europe. Passenger pigeons. Eastern mountain buffalo. California golden bear. What the new settlers did to the California Indians is a case in point, and much attention should be placed on such history. When Lewis and Clark went West, there were around 50,000 grizzlies in this country. Now, there are 2% left and occupying a small little territory.

Nick Jans, in his book THE GRIZZLY MAZE, wrote:

". . . recall that at the time of Lewis and Clark fifty thousand or more grizzlies roamed the American West. Their 1804 expedition reduced that number by forty-seven individuals and the downward spiral proceeded from there." JANS

"Across the West, no one considered conserving the species for any reason--sport, a stable ecosystem, spiritual concerns, or aesthetics. The objective was pure and direct: complete and utter extermination, in the name of the common good." JANS

"By 1950 only a few hundred animals remained in the lower forty-eight, pushed back into tiny fragments of their former range." JANS

You say nature is basically unbalanced and always changing which is true, but never at the speed humans are changing it. Geologic time, yes, it changes, but human impact has been so severe in so a short span of time as to be unavoidably apparent. If someone thinks humans are not a threat to a "natural ecosystem", well, they must be blind. Or they have a personal and emotional stake in the worldwide dominance of the mammal called "human". Maybe it's a spurious religious view of purported dominance.

When people compare wild pig damage to human damage, there's no comparison. Have pigs caused the Smokies air quality to be as bad as Los Angeles? Are pigs clearcutting and logging out private forested land holdings? Are pigs making new roads and using vehicles nonstop? Do they fly over in jets? Are they responsible for country-wide sprawl and human over-population? And yet we think they're doing damage!

I see it as a clear case of human-centric, chosen-species hubris whereby we consider ourselves to be God's gift to the universe and all other animals to be under our thumbs. We are mammals and animals, pure and simple, and are not in charge. Sure, we are mammals like the pigs and the bears, but unlike them we've lost our wisdom and the ability to see the long term consequences of our actions. Bears and ravens and turtles have been around for millions of years and leave their environment pretty much as they found it. We humans, on the other hand, have been in modern form for about 200,000 years and look what we've done. Can we go another million? I say lower our birthrate and leave the pigs alone.

[leeki pole]

Funny, since we have been infested with fire ants and armadillos, I haven't seen one nest in the last 10 years. In fact, I've only seen one solo yellow jacket on the back forty and he was in defensive mode. Used to, when you'd run the bush hog, you'd get eaten up, but no more. Granted, we're not up in the Smokies, but they're definitely on the decline, at least here in Mississippi. I wouldn't want to wish fire ants and armadillos on anyone, but I think that they have contributed to the decline in yellow jacket populations here. Maybe they've moved up north.

[berninbush]

Tipi, you missed my point. Feral pigs ARE a human effect on the environment-- they wouldn't be there without us-- but you were celebrating their impact because of your human-centric view that yellowjackets are undesirable (because you don't like being stung). Isn't that the exact attitude you are railing against?

I seriously doubt that pigs and bears see a long-term consequence to their actions or have more "wisdom" than we do. Generally pigs and other animals will go on consuming until they have driven their food sources to near-extinction in any given area. Then they either migrate elsewhere or die off from starvation until the food source makes a comeback, and the cycle begins again. In fact, humans are pretty much the only species that DOES have the capacity to think and plan ahead, and manage resources to prevent shortages.

[icemanat95]

Yellow Jackets suck, but they've got nothing on Whitefaced hornets. These paper nest builders tend to live in shrubs and similar types of vegetation. They never attack one at a time and will chase a long danged way. They also sting quite a bit harder than yellow jackets. In my job we run into these nasty insects on a regular basis and those of us who have shown any sensitivity to bee stings carry multiple epi-pens just in case. I don't react much at all, though they still hurt like hell.

The worst I've personally seen is a foreman who got tagged 7 times in the space of about 1 second. The worst I've ever been stung is 4 times. Typically you get stung before you realize you've upset the nest. Also, if you see one nest, there is a good chance that there will be others relatively close by, as these colonial insects frequently split off new colonies within the habitat.

Normally I'm pretty tolerant of bees, and I enjoy watching them go about their business, but White faced hornets and yellow jackets tend to worry me a bit.

[jorhawle]

I am wondering if there could be yellow jacket or even the white faced hornets around the shelters in the Smokies...seems like a good place for them, with some grassy areas to build their nest in.

[Tipi Walter]

Yellow Jackets suck, but they've got nothing on Whitefaced hornets. These paper nest builders tend to live in shrubs and similar types of vegetation. They never attack one at a time and will chase a long danged way. They also sting quite a bit harder than yellow jackets. In my job we run into these nasty insects on a regular basis and those of us who have shown any sensitivity to bee stings carry multiple epi-pens just in case. I don't react much at all, though they still hurt like hell.

The worst I've personally seen is a foreman who got tagged 7 times in the space of about 1 second. The worst I've ever been stung is 4 times. Typically you get stung before you realize you've upset the nest. Also, if you see one nest, there is a good chance that there will be others relatively close by, as these colonial insects frequently split off new colonies within the habitat.

Normally I'm pretty tolerant of bees, and I enjoy watching them go about their business, but White faced hornets and yellow jackets tend to worry me a bit.

I was once crossing a creek in Pisgah NF and was wearing an old Nam style bush hat. I skirted under a tree branch and a large object pulled off the branch and it was a hornet's paper nest sitting atop my boonie hat! Thank Thor it was old and empty.

The white faced hornets(and their nests) I've found have been much less aggressive than the yellow jackets, at least that's my take on it. I built a sweatlodge one summer and left it abandoned for several months and then took a sweat and found a bumblebee nest in the thing. These guys were totally cool and didn't even try to sting me. Unless you sit on one or one gets in your clothes, the big black and yellow bumblebees are very friendly.

The only other time I was stung by a white faced hornet was atop Lovers Leap on the AT outside of Hot Springs and I got up at 3 in the morning in my tent and scratched at something in my goatee. It was a WFaced hornet and it stung me on the chin. Hurt like a spiked possum on a beaver's tongue.

When the leaves start falling you know the yellow jackets will be out and swarming, anxious to dive bomb your butt.

[Tipi Walter]

I seriously doubt that pigs and bears see a long-term consequence to their actions or have more "wisdom" than we do.

I tend to see humans as a sort of "killer virus". What single species would develop a fission and fusion weapon system capable of eradicating most of all life as we know it? And what wisdom did we have when we developed the policy of MAD: mutually assured destruction?

[Pedaling Fool]

Those weapons have nothing on what nature could and have done to this planet. You should watch the discovery channel or something that illustrates what life was like when a 6 km asteroid hit earth ~65 million years ago, it's as if nature hit the reset button and started all over again.

And it will happen again and again, until the sun burns out in about 5 billion years from now and the planet just drifts off in to the cold frigid expanse of the universe.

[Wise Old Owl]

They are very active in Sept and Oct due to cooler temps causing them to be in a frenzy of activity to get their nests ready for winter. Most of my worst stings are this time of year.

I just got back from a trip south of the Smokies and kept my eyeballs open for the little basturdos. Neat thing is, the wild pigs are eating up all their nests and digging them out of the ground. I passed many large ripped apart nests and was dang thankful for the snouted wonder-pigs. They also eat up the trailside rattlesnakes. Helpful mammals in my mind. Would I curtail a trip just because of the yellow jackets? No way. Just backpack at a slow pace, try to keep your stomping foot vibrations down, and look off the trailsides for their telltale nests.


There arn't any wild pigs here in Pa but the same holes and ripped nests are common from skunks and raccoons who won't pass up a meal of larva.

[Tipi Walter]

Those weapons have nothing on what nature could and have done to this planet. You should watch the discovery channel or something that illustrates what life was like when a 6 km asteroid hit earth ~65 million years ago, it's as if nature hit the reset button and started all over again.

And it will happen again and again, until the sun burns out in about 5 billion years from now and the planet just drifts off in to the cold frigid expanse of the universe.

But those are not our moral responsibility, it's how we act here with each other and the environment that matters now. What Nature dishes out is beyond our puny scope. In fact, to say "we're all doomed anyway" just takes ethical human choice along with what harm we could be doing to ourselves and other creatures and makes our actions a non-issue. Who cares what we do to the gorillas or the grizzlies, we're all gonna burn up anyway. It's like saying, "Why try to keep a kid off drugs if he's just going to die in 60 or 70 years?

I'd say the greatest indication of a species' maturity and ability to fit into its ecosystem is how it treats its environment in the long term. What's long term? Well, study the turtles and the crocodiles.

[Pedaling Fool]

Morals? There's no such thing as morals in nature, that just some abstract human construct. Look at all animals in nature, they don't have morals, even the ever-smiling dolphin will kill baby dolphins to trigger the female's instinct to mate.

The reason animals can’t have as big an impact on their environment is because they don’t have the brainpower we erect animals have. And if that is a bad thing, then you need to blame nature, not its creation.

[Tipi Walter]

There arn't any wild pigs here in Pa but the same holes and ripped nests are common from skunks and raccoons who won't pass up a meal of larva.

I see a lot of pig damage along the trails I walk, rutted up soil similar to turkey damage but much worse, and it used to bother me until I found out Rangers in the Smokies were using night vision to kill them. Then I started thinking more clearly about their right to live. And along with the skunks and the raccoons, they are all welcome to the hornet nests they find alongside the trail. And even a rattlesnake or two. The Rangers should be more worried about unlimited car access in the Park and the bumper to bumper traffic on the Cades Cove Motor Loop, then setting up patrols for the pigs. What's to be done about the Rolling Couch Potatoes?

[sliderule]

I see a lot of pig damage along the trails I walk, rutted up soil similar to turkey damage but much worse, and it used to bother me until I found out Rangers in the Smokies were using night vision to kill them.

I can absolutely assure you that there has not been a single hog killed with night vision!!!

[Surplusman]

What's to be done about the Rolling Couch Potatoes?

Many years ago when I worked in a park, we used to call the RV and trailer crowd "robins." If you want to see why, look up the Latin name for the robin.

[Egads]

Many years ago when I worked in a park, we used to call the RV and trailer crowd "robins." If you want to see why, look up the Latin name for the robin.

Erithacus rubecula for those of you in Rio Linda

[berninbush]

The dynamic process itself can be a threat. Just ask a dinosaur.

And if it were not for humans, the "process" would be a lot less dynamic,

For your first paragraph-- my point exactly. One species' gain is usually another's loss. Dinosaurs died out and it cleared the field for a lot of other species (especially mammals) to multiply. Human activity may have contributed to the extinction of the passenger pigeon, but other pigeons have so thoroughly adapted to city life that they'd have a hard time without us. You know, the fat happy ones you see in parks.

For your second paragraph-- I dunno about that. Of course we play a part. But the process was already pretty dynamic before the rise of modern human life. If you believe in evolution, then millions of distinct species have risen and fallen in between protozoa and humans-- of those, the vast majority have gone extinct without any human involvement.

[bronconite]

There arn't any wild pigs here in Pa but the same holes and ripped nests are common from skunks and raccoons who won't pass up a meal of larva.

We do have wild pigs in PA but mostly in a few southwestern counties. The PGC is working very hard to eradicate them. Here is the latest article i could find. http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?A=11&Q=173330