View Full Version : If there were no shelters?
Chaco Taco
09-28-2009, 10:22
One thing that is so awesome to see are the piles of trash left in fire rings at shelters and the trash piled into the corners that has been nipped at by the mice. That's just great:rolleyes:
What about the wilderness areas that the AT traverses?
Well, as a whole I don't look at it that way. As far as the wilderness areas go, I figure that for thousands of years, they were inhabited by people who burned, hunted, habitated, etc. Even now, lots of areas are burned and maintained. Sometimes I think of wilderness as more of a nice idea than an actual state of being. Yeah, the wilderness areas on the AT are great, they are so quiet, and the woods are nice and mature. But as far as being "untouched" I question that. I question if "untouched" is the best way to deal with things in the 21st century, anyway, especially with invasive species. In point--conservancy areas in NY, they are very pretty, but they are becoming overrun with barberry. Is it enough just to procure land and leave it 'untouched?" How good can it be if native plants and animals can't thrive there? Would it be better to manage these areas, or would they lose value because they are not 'wilderness?' I don't have a good answer to these things.
One thing that is so awesome to see are the piles of trash left in fire rings at shelters and the trash piled into the corners that has been nipped at by the mice. That's just great:rolleyes:
In all honesty, the only problems I had with mice were when I was tenting. I can't fault them. 3 times mice were hiding in the tent vestibule, trying to get out of the rain, and chewing through my pack in the process (food all hung.)
Chaco Taco
09-28-2009, 10:30
In all honesty, the only problems I had with mice were when I was tenting. I can't fault them. 3 times mice were hiding in the tent vestibule, trying to get out of the rain, and chewing through my pack in the process (food all hung.)
Wow thats interesting, never had a problem with mice, IN MY TENT. Little varments chewed a hole in my pack first night in a shelter.
freefall
09-28-2009, 10:40
Well, as a whole I don't look at it that way. As far as the wilderness areas go, I figure that for thousands of years, they were inhabited by people who burned, hunted, habitated, etc. Even now, lots of areas are burned and maintained. Sometimes I think of wilderness as more of a nice idea than an actual state of being. Yeah, the wilderness areas on the AT are great, they are so quiet, and the woods are nice and mature. But as far as being "untouched" I question that. I question if "untouched" is the best way to deal with things in the 21st century, anyway, especially with invasive species
Great idea for wilderness. I personally see it as an area I hike in that I see no assemblance of humanity.
Johnny Thunder
09-28-2009, 10:56
I like shelters for all the reasons people hate on them. They're dirty. Garbage filled. They are always full of snorers and other folks who want to talk about gear or politics or religion. They have fire rings so's the folks who want to have fires can make really big ones. People rely on them because maybe they're scared to use their tent. Or be too far from other hikers. Because they might realize...deep down on some level...that the AT isn't even close to being a wilderness experience.
So, when I said that I liked them what I meant was that I liked how they concentrated all the things that frustrate me about the AT into specific and designated areas.
Chaco, how many times did we find campsites full-on trashed last year? I mean, even guide book marked campsites. Few. Now, how many shelters were disused?
In two summers I've only tented near snorers twice and one was at a shelter site so that's my fault. I can't even remember how many times I lost sleep in shelters.
Likewise, on the Long Trail (north of the Inn) there're almost no stealth spots where I could fit my two person tent. The shelters concentrate all that. Think of it as the antithesis of Georgia. It made walking in the woods really enjoyable. In a different way than can be experience on the AT (with the exception of parts of Southern Maine).
Arguing against shelters is like arguing against fast food. Let 'em have the vice so you can enjoy a nice quite table at Roseta's. Because we've all got to eat out sometimes and some folks just don't want to be challenged.
To the guy saying he never wants to set his tent up in the rain again...Dude, I feel you. I walked with your class for 10 weeks in the South AND the North. But, let me just say that this knee-jerk reaction towards being in the rain will pass. I left Maine last year swearing I'd never eat Mac'n'Cheese again. Hahaha.
Johnny T.
Great idea for wilderness. I personally see it as an area I hike in that I see no assemblance of humanity.
For me, there are degrees. I get tired of hearing highway traffic in the woods, that's for sure. But sometimes when areas are manipulated by human hands, they attracted more birds and animals than an area that is left alone, case in point, Walkill River Area in New Jersey. They deliberately drain and flood this area every year--it's completely controlled by people, yet I saw tons of different birds, snakes, turtles, and pretty flowers there. I really enjoyed that. I figure that since we are now understanding habitat and ecology if you will I don't think it's such a bad thing for areas to be managed as such--especially since most parts of the US could be considered 'disturbed areas.'
Also, this may be off topic here, but I could never understand the resistance for building and maintaining footpaths in wilderness areas. I always think--it's just a footpath! How harmful could it be? Yet entire acres of woods are felled for housing/shopping--while infrastructure in cities are abandoned. I just think sometimes we go overboard with protecting wilderness areas, and when an area does not jive with prisitine conceptions, we don't hold value to it because it's not 'untouched.' I don't know. It's complicated. Also, I just read the book 1493, which is contributing to my questioning of all this.
In all honesty, the only problems I had with mice were when I was tenting. I can't fault them. 3 times mice were hiding in the tent vestibule, trying to get out of the rain, and chewing through my pack in the process (food all hung.)
You must be a very unlucky hiker.
This is not typical mice behavior on the AT. Where was your tent set up?
Are you actually saying that considering all the shelters you used on the AT, you had zero mice issues except when you tented?
To the guy saying he never wants to set his tent up in the rain again...Dude, I feel you. I walked with your class for 10 weeks in the South AND the North. But, let me just say that this knee-jerk reaction towards being in the rain will pass. I left Maine last year swearing I'd never eat Mac'n'Cheese again. Hahaha.
Johnny T.
I don't know, it gave me a complex and much stress. The last 3 hikes I've been on have been total washouts. The next trail I hike will be the Arizona Trail.
You must be a very unlucky hiker.
This is not typical mice behavior on the AT. Where was your tent set up?
Are you actually saying that considering all the shelters you used on the AT, you had zero mice issues except when you tented?,
1) Sassafras Mt, Georgia
2) Tentsites at Tom Floyd Wayside
3) A brook in Massachusettes
There was no food in my pack at all. Food hung.
Seriously, I probably used the shelters 45-50 times this year. I had zero mouse problems until halfway through Vermont. I figure there are less snakes up there? The first shelter I encountered with a mouse problem was I believe Peru Peak? Enclosed cabin before Manchester Center? No way was I going to tent. It had already been raining for 24 hours. The trail was a river and the ground saturated with water. Even with the mice, we built a warm fire in the stove, and I played cards all night. Everybody else went into town.
The weather finally cleared up by the time we got to Maine, so I only used the shelters a few times in that state.
I didn't start using the shelters until NC, I didn't use any in GA. The shelters in the Smokies were wonderful and I didn't have any mouse problems.
Snorers? Yes, kept up by a few, but on a thundering/rainy night, I'd be up in my tent anyway.
sheepdog
09-28-2009, 11:31
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/4/9/2/0/wilderness.jpg (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showimage.php?i=36620&original=1&c=553)
Found this sign amusing. If it's got a sign, it's not wilderness.
The AT is not wilderness it's a recreation area.
,
1) Sassafras Mt, Georgia
2) Tentsites at Tom Floyd Wayside
3) A brook in Massachusettes
There was no food in my pack at all. Food hung.
Seriously, I probably used the shelters 45-50 times this year. I had zero mouse problems until halfway through Vermont. I figure there are less snakes up there? The first shelter I encountered with a mouse problem was I believe Peru Peak? Enclosed cabin before Manchester Center? No way was I going to tent. It had already been raining for 24 hours. The trail was a river and the ground saturated with water. Even with the mice, we built a warm fire in the stove, and I played cards all night. Everybody else went into town.
The weather finally cleared up by the time we got to Maine, so I only used the shelters a few times in that state.
I didn't start using the shelters until NC, I didn't use any in GA. The shelters in the Smokies were wonderful and I didn't have any mouse problems.
Snorers? Yes, kept up by a few, but on a thundering/rainy night, I'd be up in my tent anyway.
Hmmmm...not affected by mice at the shelters in the Smokies? :rolleyes:
If you used shelters from NC north, it's 99.9% guaranteed that you were in shelters you shared with mice. If you were not bothered by them until Vermont makes me want to take back my statement that you are an unlucky hiker. You are indeed lucky, or you were too tired to notice.
Blissful
09-28-2009, 12:58
The only time mice bothered my stuff is when I accidentally left food in an outer pouch. Only one shelter below max patch did they run over my sleeping bag. Other than that, with ear plugs, I don't hear them when I'm in a shelter.
So much for civility. Here it's always been as ephemeral as some of Pennsylvania's ridgetop springs.
Is it possible to actually learn anything here? At best, on a good day, maybe.
If your want to learn something, go to ATC's site, order what you really need shipped to your door, hike where you wish and ignore the noise.
sheepdog
09-28-2009, 14:09
So much for civility. Here it's always has been as ephemeral as some of Pennsylvania's ridgetop springs.
Is it possible to actually learn anything here? At best, on a good day, maybe.
If your want to learn something, go to ATC's site, order what you really need shipped to your door, hike where you wish and ignore the noise.
If you would like to learn, you can do that most any day, anywhere.
If you are trying to force others to learn, get used to disappointment.
;)
No wink about it, your post is one of the wisest today, not only because it raises a good question: what is the purpose of this website, are we achieving it, does it result in a better A.T., more informed users and a more informed general public?
No wink about it. Your post is one of the wisest today, not only because it raises a good question: what is the purpose of this website, are we achieving it, does it result in a better A.T., more informed users and a more informed general public?
Emerald, since virtually post of your's recently has been to complain, chastise, and offer advice to moderators, you might be best served to start your own site where you can moderate to your heart's content.
In the meantime, please try to offer thoughts that help our readers than than chastise, bemoan, or condescend to them. It would certainly lend itself to a more informed general public.
(BTW, yes, I recognize the irony in this post :o)
Thanks for the invitation to start another website. I'd be more interested in seeing a greater amount of self-moderation here and I see the tone has changed somewhat elsewhere at least temporarily.