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drastic_quench
09-21-2009, 14:20
How big of an outcry would there be if shelters were either actively demolished or phased out by neglecting them until they rotted? For argument's sake, let's leave out the Smokies.

If all responsible hikers carry some form of shelter - tent, hammock, or bivy - would they really be missed that much?

I can see how shelters fit with McKaye's idealized vision, but with modern, light, and affordable tents why bother maintaining three-walled wooden sleeping platforms. Couldn't that extra manpower be put to more practical use on trail maintenance and/or maintaining the shelter areas as campsites and privies?

I don't claim to have any answer. I'm just interested in the question and opinions.

sheepdog
09-21-2009, 14:22
Question ;If there were no shelters?
Answer; The AT would be a better place.
disclaimer: I do like the picnic tables.

kanga
09-21-2009, 14:25
Question ;If there were no shelters?
Answer; The AT would be a better place.
disclaimer: I do like the picnic tables.
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs009.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

except for that last part.

ShoelessWanderer
09-21-2009, 14:27
I have to agree I like the picnic tables, and privies. I'd have no problems if most of the shelters weren't there. However, would cut down on my options for winter backpacking. I hate pitching my tent in the snow...so can we leave a few shelters up??

A-Train
09-21-2009, 14:32
I respond to this as someone who had hiked the AT (tons of shelters) and the PCT (virtually no shelters to speak of).

While i don't advocate for adding AT shelters or continuing to build or renovate shelters that are of the Hilton variety (15-20 hiker capacity), shelters have a very functional purpose.

They are a welcome site in a thunderstorm storm or snow storm or during consecutive nights of cold rain, and most people can admit this, even those who love their tents.

If you abolished shelters you'd still have people convening in campsite areas, but the shelter structure itself (and the adjoining register, picnic table and fire pit) bring people together and provide the setting for a thriving AT community that's been bringing people together for years

kanga
09-21-2009, 14:42
I respond to this as someone who had hiked the AT (tons of shelters) and the PCT (virtually no shelters to speak of).

While i don't advocate for adding AT shelters or continuing to build or renovate shelters that are of the Hilton variety (15-20 hiker capacity), shelters have a very functional purpose.

They are a welcome site in a thunderstorm storm or snow storm or during consecutive nights of cold rain, and most people can admit this, even those who love their tents.

If you abolished shelters you'd still have people convening in campsite areas, but the shelter structure itself (and the adjoining register, picnic table and fire pit) bring people together and provide the setting for a thriving AT community that's been bringing people together for years
wait a minute. i just read in another thread that there wasn't any at community? i am so confused.

A-Train
09-21-2009, 14:46
wait a minute. i just read in another thread that there wasn't any at community? i am so confused.

There's nothing to be confused about. Decidedly, there is no AT community. Sorry to confuse you. Next time you are on the trail, jam q tips into your ears and put your head down when those rotten scoundrels try to coax you into a conversation and/or friendship

kanga
09-21-2009, 14:51
There's nothing to be confused about. Decidedly, there is no AT community. Sorry to confuse you. Next time you are on the trail, jam q tips into your ears and put your head down when those rotten scoundrels try to coax you into a conversation and/or friendship
ahhh, so that's how it's done... and here i thought i was going to have to bend over and try to hike while kissing my own butt. thanks!:sun

Snowleopard
09-21-2009, 14:54
In some fragile environments shelters serve an important purpose by concentrating use in a small area and providing more infrastructure there (privy, water, the shelter itself). In the White Mountains (NH) above tree line, the alternative to the expensive AMC huts would be no ability to spend the night above tree line; you'd have to descend. Since many thru-hikers would not descend but would cowboy camp, there would be more damage to the alpine environment.

emerald
09-21-2009, 14:55
The A.T. isn't the PCT and wishing it were so won't make it so. The environmental impacts such a change would cause would be more than unfortunate.

What is the most biologically diverse unit managed by the National Park Service? It's the Appalachian National Scenic Trail. If you don't believe me, ask them or ATC.

I'd advocate for more shelters or more acceptable alternatives that concentrate impact before I'd accept none.

kanga
09-21-2009, 14:57
In some fragile environments shelters serve an important purpose by concentrating use in a small area and providing more infrastructure there (privy, water, the shelter itself). In the White Mountains (NH) above tree line, the alternative to the expensive AMC huts would be no ability to spend the night above tree line; you'd have to descend. Since many thru-hikers would not descend but would cowboy camp, there would be more damage to the alpine environment.
very good point

kanga
09-21-2009, 14:58
The A.T. isn't the PCT and wishing it were so won't make it so. The environmental impacts such a change would cause would be more than unfortunate.

What is the most biologically diverse unit managed by the National Park Service? It's the Appalachian National Scenic Trail. If you don't believe me, ask them or ATC.

I'd advocate for more shelters or more acceptable alternatives that concentrate impact before I'd accept none.
it's just a hypothetical discussion, shades. nothing to nut up about.

sheepdog
09-21-2009, 15:01
If there were no shelters?
A gazillion mice would be homeless??

The Weasel
09-21-2009, 15:03
If there were no shelters?
A gazillion mice would be homeless??

And people would have to pack out their own tuna cans.

TW

sheepdog
09-21-2009, 15:05
And people would have to pack out their own tuna cans.

TW
:D:D

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

emerald
09-21-2009, 15:08
The A.T. isn't a free for all, but rather a 2000-mile compromise, one which varies locally throughout its length.

emerald
09-21-2009, 15:09
it's just a hypothetical discussion, shades. nothing to nut up about.

You wouldn't be overreacting, dear, now would you?:) I told you he doesn't post here anymore. He got the ****s of it long ago.

Just providing tobacco for the peace pipe. I don't smoke, but some others seem to think they benefit from the activity.

kanga
09-21-2009, 15:13
yes, i'm running around pulling my hair out as we speak.
seriously though, as far as you comment about rather having more shelters instead of none, don't you think that more of the wuss pusses that come in for the weekend to party at the shelters wouldn't be there to trash things if there wasn't some sort of shelter there to protect them from the boogie man? i have found in life that the people that are the most self-sufficient are usually the more respectful and less wasteful ones. isn't there some quote regarding laziness begetting.. something?

sheepdog
09-21-2009, 15:15
yes, i'm running around pulling my hair out as we speak.
seriously though, as far as you comment about rather having more shelters instead of none, don't you think that more of the wuss pusses that come in for the weekend to party at the shelters wouldn't be there to trash things if there wasn't some sort of shelter there to protect them from the boogie man? i have found in life that the people that are the most self-sufficient are usually the more respectful and less wasteful ones. isn't there some quote regarding laziness begetting.. something?
well said
or
yepperdoodle

BlackCloud
09-21-2009, 15:15
Then there would be no mice...

SassyWindsor
09-21-2009, 15:22
If there were no Shelters what would happen?

Here at WB the posts about "tearing down shelters" would soon be replaced by post about "building Shelters" .

Shelters remind me of a towns community center, a place you gather with (some) people/relatives you really don't wish to see (or smell). I could live without shelters.

emerald
09-21-2009, 15:30
yes...

Sorry, I ordinarily don't carry on conversations with marsupials in person or online, but I must disagree. Most of the people to whom you refer don't have as much ambition as you believe although I have observed some remarkable things over the years.

Some, myself included, say the more the merrier so long as we're careful about it. It's about amassing political clout and dollars. It does require education. Are we doing our part?

Chaco Taco
09-21-2009, 15:30
The social aspect of the trail would fade away. More people stealthing in the woods. Less trash, Less BS

dreamsoftrails
09-21-2009, 15:33
The A.T. isn't the PCT and wishing it were so won't make it so. The environmental impacts such a change would cause would be more than unfortunate.

What is the most biologically diverse unit managed by the National Park Service? It's the Appalachian National Scenic Trail. If you don't believe me, ask them or ATC.

I'd advocate for more shelters or more acceptable alternatives that concentrate impact before I'd accept none.

you are assuming present use would continue at current rates if shelters were removed. if that were true, there would be serious impact.

however, a lot of the people i have seen out there would probably not be there if it weren't for the shelters. i met one thru this year who still thought camping out in a tent was a 'big deal' several weeks into her hike. she ended up sizing down to a tarp because she basically conceded she would never sleep out of a shelter anyway.

the shelters could easily be the reason why so many use the trail to begin with.

and its not like poo can't be managed without a shelter. people would still crowd the same campsites near water anyway.

kanga
09-21-2009, 15:33
You wouldn't be overreacting dear, now would you?:) I told you he doesn't post here anymore. He got the ****s of it long ago.

Just providing tobacco for the peace pipe. I don't smoke, but some others may benefit from the activity.

nice edit..:p


yes, i'm running around pulling my hair out as we speak.
seriously though, as far as you comment about rather having more shelters instead of none, don't you think that more of the wuss pusses that come in for the weekend to party at the shelters wouldn't be there to trash things if there wasn't some sort of shelter there to protect them from the boogie man? i have found in life that the people that are the most self-sufficient are usually the more respectful and less wasteful ones. isn't there some quote regarding laziness begetting.. something?


Sorry, I ordinarily don't carry on conversations with marsupials in person or on online, but I must disagree. Most of the people to whom you refer don't have as much ambition as you believe although I have observed some remarkable things over the years.

Some, myself included, say the more the merrier so long as were careful about it. It's about amassing political clout and dollars. It does require education. Are we doing our part?


which ones are you referring that i'm referring to?

dreamsoftrails
09-21-2009, 15:34
The social aspect of the trail would fade away. More people stealthing in the woods. Less trash, Less BS
some of my most social memories of the AT involve camping at beautiful mountain tops away from shelters with very unique people, sitting around a fire on a chilly night.

kanga
09-21-2009, 15:34
you are assuming present use would continue at current rates if shelters were removed. if that were true, there would be serious impact.

however, a lot of the people i have seen out there would probably not be there if it weren't for the shelters. i met one thru this year who still thought camping out in a tent was a 'big deal' several weeks into her hike. she ended up sizing down to a tarp because she basically conceded she would never sleep out of a shelter anyway.

the shelters could easily be the reason why so many use the trail to begin with.

and its not like poo can't be managed without a shelter. people would still crowd the same campsites near water anyway.



egggsactly...

Chaco Taco
09-21-2009, 15:37
some of my most social memories of the AT involve camping at beautiful mountain tops away from shelters with very unique people, sitting around a fire on a chilly night.

Yea but how many were you with??? Im looking more at the large numbers of people that tend to gather at shelters. I agree with you, some of my fondest memories are on mountaintops looking out the tent at a beautiful sunrise/set

emerald
09-21-2009, 15:38
I could live without shelters.

Really, give me a break! Why does man build houses and where do you keep your keyboard and computer monitor dry?

sheepdog
09-21-2009, 15:41
Really, give me a break! Why does man build houses and where do you keep your keyboard and computer monitor dry?
perhaps you could hike then:)

A-Train
09-21-2009, 15:41
The social aspect of the trail would fade away. More people stealthing in the woods. Less trash, Less BS

bingo. On the PCT, for the most part everyone "stealths" as there are virtually no official campsites. You basically have to be walking with someone to camp with them. Thru-hikers tend to congregate and travel in groups of 2-5 but your chances of running into the quirky weekender or sectino hiker who will share a campfire with you is slim to none. This is definately due to the lack of shelters.

emerald
09-21-2009, 15:41
some of my most social memories of the AT involve camping at beautiful mountain tops away from shelters with very unique people, sitting around a fire on a chilly night.

It's a shame the unique people don't stay at shelters and campfires are prohibited there.:rolleyes: At least it's always warm there.

Lone Wolf
09-21-2009, 15:42
The social aspect of the trail would fade away. More people stealthing in the woods. Less trash, Less BS

and that's a good thing

Chaco Taco
09-21-2009, 15:43
It's a shame the unique people don't stay at shelters and campfires are prohibited there.:rolleyes: At least it's always warm there.
It really isnt a shame. :rolleyes:

sheepdog
09-21-2009, 15:44
It's a shame the unique people don't stay at shelters and campfires are prohibited there.:rolleyes: At least it's always warm there.
Not always warm. Seems like a cold wind always blows in the opening

emerald
09-21-2009, 15:44
Thru-hikers tend to congregate and travel in groups of 2-5 but your chances of running into the quirky weekender or sectino hiker who will share a campfire with you is slim to none. This is definately due to the lack of shelters.

Is it fair to say it's easier to maintain an esprit de corps amongst the elite on the PCT?

Chaco Taco
09-21-2009, 15:44
and that's a good thing

yep, yep it is

Chaco Taco
09-21-2009, 15:45
Not always warm. Seems like a cold wind always blows in the opening

And are you are complaining? I was under the impression that when hikers go out and hike, they are embracing nature and what it has to offer. I really hope you arent complaining

emerald
09-21-2009, 15:50
This thread reminds me of the Aldo Leopold quote I posted yesterday.

emerald
09-21-2009, 15:51
I claim last post 1st page!:banana

Chaco Taco
09-21-2009, 15:51
This thread reminds me of the Aldo Leopold quote I posted yesterday.

Not interested enough to search it

sheepdog
09-21-2009, 15:51
And are you are complaining? I was under the impression that when hikers go out and hike, they are embracing nature and what it has to offer. I really hope you arent complaining
Just a comment on "shelters are always warm". Shelters suck, don't use em anymore, I got no complaints

Chaco Taco
09-21-2009, 15:52
Just a comment on "shelters are always warm". Shelters suck, don't use em anymore, I got no complaints
I gotcha;)

emerald
09-21-2009, 15:55
Not interested enough to search it

No problem.


The Passenger Pigeon was no mere bird, he was a biological storm. He was the lightning that played between two biotic poles of intolerable intensity: the fat of the land and his own zest for living. Yearly the feathered tempest roared up, down, and across the continent, sucking up the laden fruits of forest and prairie, burning them in a travelling blast of life. Like any other chain reaction, the pigeon could survive no diminution of his own furious intensity. Once the pigeoners had subtracted from his numbers, and once the settlers had chopped gaps in the continuity of his fuel, his flame guttered out with hardly a sputter or even a wisp of smoke.

A-Train
09-21-2009, 15:55
Is it fair to say it's easier to maintain an esprit de corps amongst the elite on the PCT?

well, I would never refer to thru-hikers on either trail as the "elite". That term is reserved for trail maintainers and people who do positive things for the trail, not netural things.

The groups spirit is strong on both trails, but the thrus are all bunched together on the PCT into a 2-3 week window and there are less of them, so maybe.

On the AT a long distance hiker has a pretty good idea who they will run into at the shelter area at night once a routine has been established. On the PCT, if you are walking alone in the afternoon, you're probably camping alone.

sbhikes
09-21-2009, 15:55
your chances of running into the quirky weekender or sectino hiker who will share a campfire with you is slim to none.

My experience on the PCT doesn't match this statement at all.

Can't say I have any idea what the AT would be like without shelters. I have no opinion about them. I favor toilets, though. Too many people haven't a clue how to properly deal with their bodily functions.

emerald
09-21-2009, 15:59
Well, I would never refer to thru-hikers on either trail as the "elite."

You mean thru-hikers aren't special?

sheepdog
09-21-2009, 16:02
You mean thru-hikers aren't special?
nope but some of them think they are

emerald
09-21-2009, 16:13
nice edit..:p

Thanks. Sometimes I don't share what I post with everyone.



To which ones are you referring that I'm referring to?

The non-thruhikers who don't post to WhiteBlaze. Keep it up, you'll end up with an earfull from them.

Jester2000
09-21-2009, 16:18
Aside from any concerns regarding impact, I think that shelters are part of the trail and part of trail culture. This may be a bad thing in the minds of some, but that doesn't make it any less so.

I liked shelters on the AT, I liked not having them on the PCT.

Jester2000
09-21-2009, 16:23
On the AT a long distance hiker has a pretty good idea who they will run into at the shelter area at night once a routine has been established. On the PCT, if you are walking alone in the afternoon, you're probably camping alone.

It's important to note here that when A-Train is on the PCT, other hikers know where he is, and adjust their camping strategy accordingly.

dreamsoftrails
09-21-2009, 16:23
Yea but how many were you with??? Im looking more at the large numbers of people that tend to gather at shelters. I agree with you, some of my fondest memories are on mountaintops looking out the tent at a beautiful sunrise/set
4-5. all the social i need.

emerald
09-21-2009, 16:24
egggsactly...

I don't have numbers, but I'm not thinking what you say is so, seriously. My bold would emphasize the last sentence and I'd point out the footprint increases and the vegetation decreases.

Wise Old Owl
09-21-2009, 16:27
http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs009.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

except for that last part.

No I do like the picnic tables, And forget the shelters. If every other one and the problem ones with locals dissappeared it would be ok.

emerald
09-21-2009, 16:35
If every other [shelter] and the problem ones with locals dissappeared it would be ok.

Assuming you'd keep Springer Mountain Shelter, what if the problem shelters are even-numbered?

dreamsoftrails
09-21-2009, 16:37
It really isnt a shame. :rolleyes:
nope, not at all!

sbhikes
09-21-2009, 16:42
It's important to note here that when A-Train is on the PCT, other hikers know where he is, and adjust their camping strategy accordingly.

One nice thing about the PCT is being able to develop a strategy.

emerald
09-21-2009, 16:44
Nope, not at all!

Maybe shelter dwellers don't like camping with elitists. If anyone cares, click on the blue arrows twice.

The Old Fhart
09-21-2009, 16:45
sbhikes-"One nice thing about the PCT is being able to develop a strategy"I did that on the A.T..

dreamsoftrails
09-21-2009, 16:46
Maybe shelter dwellers don't like camping with elitists.
maybe they don't know how to camp.

emerald
09-21-2009, 16:46
One nice thing about the PCT is being able to develop a strategy.

It's clear some on the A.T. don't have one! It might be nice were they to develop one.

emerald
09-21-2009, 16:47
Don't mind me. I'm shooting for 5000 by week's end and quality is no object.

emerald
09-21-2009, 16:48
Maybe they don't know how to camp.

They just know a good thing when they see it.

Jester2000
09-21-2009, 16:54
maybe they don't know how to camp.

I say that all the time about the people in my town who live in the shelters they call "houses."

Lone Wolf
09-21-2009, 17:11
I'm shooting for 5000 by week's end and quality is no object.

never has been with your posts

dreamsoftrails
09-21-2009, 17:17
They just know a good thing when they see it.
bless their hearts...

emerald
09-21-2009, 17:18
Thanks for the encouragement, Wolf.

emerald
09-21-2009, 17:19
Bless their hearts...

Didn't you indicate the A.T. doesn't need shelters?

Chaco Taco
09-21-2009, 17:25
No problem.

Nice:D:-?:D

Chaco Taco
09-21-2009, 17:29
Don't mind me. I'm shooting for 5000 by week's end and quality is no object.

Im going to coin a new phrase soon that has to do with a certain individual no longer on this site, but he got carpal from posting too much about nonsense and look at where that has gotten him. No longer able to post here and wrist surgery, so slow down. Dont rush it.

dreamsoftrails
09-21-2009, 17:31
Didn't you indicate the A.T. doesn't need shelters?
yes, i did.

emerald
09-21-2009, 17:47
Guess you'd prefer to camp with the shelter dwellers after all.

emerald
09-21-2009, 17:54
What's wrong? Battery in your laptop let you down?

emerald
09-21-2009, 17:57
Post, anyone?

No Such A Thing As a Warraghiyagey (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34922&highlight=wargy)!

Chaco Taco
09-21-2009, 18:00
Post anyone?

No Such A Thing As a Warraghiyagey (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34922&highlight=wargy)!

Who farted?

Manwich
09-21-2009, 18:23
never has been with your posts

thats why i chose to ignore him.

it doesn't work, however, when you go ahead and quote him :-/

be pretty funny if his post count were reset :-p

emerald
09-21-2009, 18:34
That's why i chose to ignore him.

You're doing a fine job of it too!

dreamsoftrails
09-21-2009, 18:35
Guess you'd prefer to camp with the shelter dwellers after all.
why do you say so....

emerald
09-21-2009, 18:41
Where do you figure shelter dwellers would be if they weren't at shelters? Wouldn't they be competing for your preferred campsites? Think about it. Before long, you will come to appreciate shelters and may even help build a few yourself.

Wise Old Owl
09-21-2009, 18:53
Assuming you'd keep Springer Mountain Shelter, what if the problem shelters are even-numbered?

Yea you figured it out, simply less is more. don't need one every ten miles.

dreamsoftrails
09-21-2009, 19:03
Where do you figure shelter dwellers would be if they weren't at shelters? Wouldn't they be competing for your preferred campsites? Think about it. Before long, you will come to appreciate shelters and may even help build a few yourself.
nope, those folks would be off trail, doing something else.

and i have no trouble keeping my preferred campsites a secret.

and i surely will never help build a shelter...

Darwin again
09-21-2009, 19:32
No shelters?
This must be a trick question...

If there were no shelters, there would be no more murders?
Do I get the prize?

I only use the shelters for lunch breaks.

Manwich
09-21-2009, 19:40
ain't never heard of a murder on the at from my point, north. I guess I stop them here.

Chaco Taco
09-21-2009, 20:15
. Before long, you will come to appreciate shelters and may even help build a few yourself.

http://images.zaazu.com/img/laughing-smiley-male-smiley-laugh-smiley-emoticon-000288-large.gif

Dogwood
09-21-2009, 20:17
If there were no AT shelters where would the mice live?

emerald
09-22-2009, 00:23
Nope, those folks would be off trail, doing something else.

Speculation I have heard before. You can't prove what those folks would do and I'm not buying it. I don't believe the number of fire rings being built where I shouldn't see them would decrease if shelters were removed. If anything, I believe they would increase.


I have no trouble keeping my preferred campsites a secret.

Your top secret campsites you have not yet had the opportunity to prefer have already been used before. They're not a secret.


I surely will never help build a shelter...

There may be a reason for your elipsis. Never is a long time and people change their minds.

Trailweaver
09-22-2009, 01:13
O.K. Where would we put the shelter registers? What in this world would we do for entertainment at night if we didn't have the shelter registers to read? By the way, I just returned from a weekend around Unicoi. . . the shelter register at Blue Mountain was particularly good reading. ; - )

I do think the shelters help minimize impact, and appreciate having them although I don't sleep there. I cook there, and it is interesting to meet people along the way at the shelters. Plus, as someone else has already pointed out, we can't leave the shelter mice homeless!

Manwich
09-22-2009, 09:17
O.K. Where would we put the shelter registers? What in this world would we do for entertainment at night if we didn't have the shelter registers to read? By the way, I just returned from a weekend around Unicoi. . . the shelter register at Blue Mountain was particularly good reading. ; - )

I do think the shelters help minimize impact, and appreciate having them although I don't sleep there. I cook there, and it is interesting to meet people along the way at the shelters. Plus, as someone else has already pointed out, we can't leave the shelter mice homeless!


I appreciate the shelters but hate the register. Filthy things they are. People sweating all day, running noses at night when it gets cold, touching the book with their hands... dozens of people. Ew.

kanga
09-22-2009, 09:44
Don't mind me. I'm shooting for 5000 by week's end and quality is no object.

ooh, see now i get it..

kanga
09-22-2009, 09:48
thats why i chose to ignore him.



You're doing a fine job of it too!

just so you're in the loop totem

Skyline
09-22-2009, 10:26
We could use more groupings of 6-10 (dispersed) tentsites within the same general area, with a privy, picnic table, firepit, and water source close by. Maybe every couple miles along the AT where feasible.

We can then live without the shelter structures themselves, while concentrating use through the groupings of tentsites. A lot less construction and maintenance for the local clubs that way, and more predetermined camping options for hikers than the present average of every 10 miles or so. Hikers could still choose to camp away from these designated tentsites in most environments if they wanted to.

AT hikers would need to carry their own portable shelters (they should anyway), and learn how to use them—especially in bad weather. It's not so bad setting up/taking down a tent in the rain once you develop a strategy and get used to it.

BTW, most hikers stay warmer in cold weather in tents than they do in a three-sided wooden or stone shelter. And generally sleep better without all the other people so close, and in more sanitary conditions.

nufsaid
09-22-2009, 10:45
This thread reminds me of the Aldo Leopold quote I posted yesterday.

How so? Are you saying that without shelters, AT hikers would become extinct?

Darwin again
09-22-2009, 12:28
You want bonhomie, got to a bar in town.
It's called HIKING not SHELTERING.

Shelters attract opportunistic vermin of all species...

flemdawg1
09-22-2009, 13:43
The social aspect of the trail would fade away. More people stealthing in the woods. Less trash, Less BS

The worst cases of trashing the trail that I've ever seen are tenters who abandon their broken tent/tarps at their campsites. :rolleyes:

I do both ways (shelter-wise), even tenting near shelters when the registers suggest mice and other vermin.

emerald
09-22-2009, 15:55
How so? Are you saying that without shelters, AT hikers would become extinct?

No, Leopold made some astute observations and expressed them in a manner few others would have thought to put to words.

People will read into my posts what they want. Sometimes I post to encourage exercising gray matter that would grow cobwebs otherwise.

For what it's worth, I was struck by the rate at which the thread was proceeding and to which I was contributing to it. Threads have a tendency to develop faster now that our membership has grown.

They can be fast and furious, burning themselves out before much thought occurs. Two days later, we see the same thread again with the same result and little learned.

I do believe shelters are a good thing whether you choose use them or not. I'd rather funnel those who don't employ LNT methods into a place where their impact can be somewhat contained, where some oversight occurs and some transfer of information might happen.

emerald
09-22-2009, 16:10
I appreciate the shelters but hate the register. Filthy things they are. People sweating all day, running noses at night when it gets cold, touching the book with their hands... dozens of people. Ew.

Then don't read them!

nufsaid
09-22-2009, 16:57
No, Leopold made some astute observations and expressed them in a manner few others would have thought to put to words.


Did you actually read the quote you posted?

emerald
09-22-2009, 17:02
Of course I did. We could discuss it if you wish.

Would you care to meet at Middle Creek? It's only one mouse click away and they have a passenger pigeon.

Bare Bear
09-22-2009, 17:04
LOL LMAO I wish I could count how many times this same senseless discussion has gone on. Let's just go for a walk eh?

nufsaid
09-22-2009, 17:07
Of course I did. We could discuss it if you wish. Would you care to meet at Middle Creek?


Don't bother. I don't much care for pseudo-intellectuals.

emerald
09-22-2009, 17:12
I wish I could count how many times this same senseless discussion has gone on. Let's just go for a walk, eh?

I was just thinking I'd go for a walk. You'd be welcome to join me, but it would be dark before you'd get here.

drastic_quench
09-22-2009, 21:29
Emerald, I imagine you could just talk to yourself; you've managed it just fine here.

Chaco Taco
09-22-2009, 21:41
The worst cases of trashing the trail that I've ever seen are tenters who abandon their broken tent/tarps at their campsites. :rolleyes:

I do both ways (shelter-wise), even tenting near shelters when the registers suggest mice and other vermin.

Yea and most of the time it is on the trail close to a town, like Watauga Lake where locals trash it and abandon tents and such. Nine times outta ten, hikers will leave a campsite trash free. Shelters will have loads of trash hanging on the insides of them. Look at Apple House Shelter!

Chaco Taco
09-22-2009, 21:43
I was just thinking I'd go for a walk. You'd be welcome to join me, but it would be dark before you'd get here.

http://users.telenet.be/smetteninc/chester.jpg

warraghiyagey
09-22-2009, 21:50
Emerald, I imagine you could just talk to yourself; you've managed it just fine here.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/worthy.gifhttp://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/worthy.gif

Blissful
09-22-2009, 22:19
If there were no shelters, there would be no more murders?
Do I get the prize?



No.

Meredith was taken while on the trail and then killed...

Blissful
09-22-2009, 22:22
One of the best times I had was atop Whitetop Mtn at Mt Rogers with three other thru hikers. Glorious sunset alongside our tents. Marvelous stuff.

freefall
09-23-2009, 01:09
One of the best times I had was atop Whitetop Mtn at Mt Rogers with three other thru hikers. Glorious sunset alongside our tents. Marvelous stuff.


Me too! We sat up there for over an hour one night. We even glimpsed the ISS heading over.

freefall
09-23-2009, 01:22
I would not weep no shelters on the A.T.

I headed to a shelter only once outside the Smokies and could have done with ought that.

Come up with some other mitigation in the northeast and let the shelters die.

In areas of high use, create tent sights. In areas of low use, create tent sights.

Provided the potential thru hiker is ready to head north, they will have shelter. Thus no reason to have those boxes along the AT.

If they are SB, then they will definitely have protection from the elements. And again, no reason to rely on the shelters.

Benton Bakaye's vision was actually not anyone to walk the entire AT but for people to interact and create social environments in definable areas.

freefall
09-23-2009, 01:25
http://users.telenet.be/smetteninc/chester.jpg

wrong wrorg wrong

Gumbi
09-23-2009, 08:22
You could get rid of the the shelters themselves, but turn the area into a smooth, level campsite for people to pitch their tents. Keep the privies, picnick tables, and fire rings.

It would be the best of both worlds! It would discourage the weekend party groups while maintaining the social aspect of the AT.

Skyline
09-23-2009, 09:17
You could get rid of the the shelters themselves, but turn the area into a smooth, level campsite for people to pitch their tents. Keep the privies, picnick tables, and fire rings.

It would be the best of both worlds! It would discourage the weekend party groups while maintaining the social aspect of the AT.



Basically true. Especially keeping the table(s), privy, fire ring (and don't forget the nearby water source and in Bear Country a bear pole or pulley system).

But instead of crowding all the tents in one spot at a flat place where a shelter now stands it would be better to build 6-10 individual tentsites dispersed within about a quarter-mile radius. Better yet if these could be built into modest sidehill.

Crowding tentsites into one flat area is a recipe for it becoming a mud pit in a short time. Dispersing tentsites is a better long-term solution. Digging out sidehill for individual sites greatly decreases the possibility of new tent ghettoes forming over time.

These do require some labor to establish (up to 10 volunteer-hours per site in my experience) and need to be large enough and flat enough to accommodate a variety of tent styles/sizes; if surrounded on the uphill and sides by rocks and/or trenches to inhibit erosion they will last longer. Semi-annual maintenance, comparable to cleaning out waterbars and check dams on the Trail itself, is usually all that's needed to keep them functioning well for years.

Come visit some of the tentsites at Pass Mt. Hut in Shenandoah National Park to see examples.

Better yet, visit Annapolis Rocks in Maryland, where Dr. Jeff Marion pioneered this concept earlier this decade. What was formerly an overused, trashed camping area was turned into a more pristeen hiker destination by breaking up the big flat tenting area and creating an ample number of individual sites built into sidehill. For a description of the problem, and what was proposed to resolve it (has since been implemented), visit http://www.dnr.maryland.gov/publiclands/at.html and scroll down to "Annapolis Rocks."

DavidNH
09-23-2009, 10:16
Since we are talking about the Appalachian Trail here, one of the countries most used trails, I would say it would be a terrible idea to remove all the shelters.

1) shelters keep the impact to one place (more or less). removing them would spread it out all over the place.

2) Imagine, for a second it is pouring rain and has been for hours. A roof over your head can be heaven. No roof, you need to set you need to set up tarp or tent in rain. And then where do you cook?

3) I will conceded this much. If shelters where removed and replaced by tent platforms in designated areas, I could more easily accept their removal.

4) Most hikers have their lunch breaks at shelters (or so it seemed to me). this also localizes impact. At least shelters give all the mice one central place they can go for their vittles! Don't want mice, then you tent preferably away from shelter, though not to far away as the shelter is always located close to privy and water source.

5) where there no shelters, wouldn't the mice be a problem everywhere instead of only at shelters as is the case now?

6) ideally, all shelters should be over a mile from the nearest road to keep the partiers away!

David

Lone Wolf
09-23-2009, 10:19
2) Imagine, for a second it is pouring rain and has been for hours. A roof over your head can be heaven. No roof, you need to set you need to set up tarp or tent in rain. And then where do you cook?



oh heavens! how awful to set up a tent in the rain and cook in your vestibule.

Pootz
09-23-2009, 10:20
I respond to this as someone who had hiked the AT (tons of shelters) and the PCT (virtually no shelters to speak of).

While i don't advocate for adding AT shelters or continuing to build or renovate shelters that are of the Hilton variety (15-20 hiker capacity), shelters have a very functional purpose.

They are a welcome site in a thunderstorm storm or snow storm or during consecutive nights of cold rain, and most people can admit this, even those who love their tents.

If you abolished shelters you'd still have people convening in campsite areas, but the shelter structure itself (and the adjoining register, picnic table and fire pit) bring people together and provide the setting for a thriving AT community that's been bringing people together for years

I agree with A-Train.

:DI have hiked lots of trails that do not have shelters and always find them to lack the community setting I enjoy on the AT. I like everythign about the shelters: outhouses, picnic tables, social setting, water supply, and a place to get out of the rain. And they help keep the At from being one camp site after another for 2000 miles. If you do not like shelters, people, picnic tables, outhouses etc. There are plenty of trails that will fit your needs. Lets not change the AT that we all love so much.

The Old Fhart
09-23-2009, 10:29
Four to five million people per year use some part of the trail system that makes up the Appalachian Trail and because some of the perhaps one thousand elitist thru hikers don't like shelters, the shelters should be removed? :-?

P.S. -I tent

kanga
09-23-2009, 10:30
Four to five million people per year use some part of the trail system that makes up the Appalachian Trail and because some of the perhaps one thousand elitist thru hikers don't like shelters, the shelters should be removed? :-?

P.S. -I tent
yes..:D


The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

kanga
09-23-2009, 10:31
oh heavens! how awful to set up a tent in the rain and cook in your vestibule.
i know, right? that would be just awful.

nufsaid
09-23-2009, 10:50
Four to five million people per year use some part of the trail system that makes up the Appalachian Trail and because some of the perhaps one thousand elitist thru hikers don't like shelters, the shelters should be removed? :-?

P.S. -I tent

How many of the 4-5 million users actually depend on the shelters? Day hikers make up the majority of the numbers you state. Not to mention tourists that park and check out the trail.

dreamsoftrails
09-23-2009, 10:57
Since we are talking about the Appalachian Trail here, one of the countries most used trails, I would say it would be a terrible idea to remove all the shelters.

1) shelters keep the impact to one place (more or less). removing them would spread it out all over the place.

2) Imagine, for a second it is pouring rain and has been for hours. A roof over your head can be heaven. No roof, you need to set you need to set up tarp or tent in rain. And then where do you cook?

the shelters invite impact, and contribute to the perception that anyone can use the AT. most people would quit the first time they made a real camp in the rain.


3) I will conceded this much. If shelters where removed and replaced by tent platforms in designated areas, I could more easily accept their removal.
isn't this basically a camp site?


4) Most hikers have their lunch breaks at shelters (or so it seemed to me). this also localizes impact. At least shelters give all the mice one central place they can go for their vittles! Don't want mice, then you tent preferably away from shelter, though not to far away as the shelter is always located close to privy and water source. impact would not be there where it not for the perception of availability the shelters give to the trail.


5) where there no shelters, wouldn't the mice be a problem everywhere instead of only at shelters as is the case now?
there would be mice spread out all over the place. no one would notice them.

A-Train
09-23-2009, 11:04
Four to five million people per year use some part of the trail system that makes up the Appalachian Trail and because some of the perhaps one thousand elitist thru hikers don't like shelters, the shelters should be removed? :-?

P.S. -I tent

Most of the people that have been advocating here and the ones who make daily snarky comments about shelters "sucking" are section and weekend hikers.

I have a funny feeling that many of the above mentioned have not walked for weeks/months consecutively while the sky was pouring onto them day and night. For this reason, I'm glad shelters are a viable option on the AT.

Then again, on a western trail with little to no rain, no need for shelters...

nufsaid
09-23-2009, 11:11
Most of the people that have been advocating here and the ones who make daily snarky comments about shelters "sucking" are section and weekend hikers.

I have a funny feeling that many of the above mentioned have not walked for weeks/months consecutively while the sky was pouring onto them day and night. For this reason, I'm glad shelters are a viable option on the AT.



The vast majority of the people that support/visit the trail are not thru hikers.

nufsaid
09-23-2009, 11:16
Most of the people that have been advocating here and the ones who make daily snarky comments about shelters "sucking" are section and weekend hikers.

I have a funny feeling that many of the above mentioned have not walked for weeks/months consecutively while the sky was pouring onto them day and night. For this reason, I'm glad shelters are a viable option on the AT.



Maybe thru hikers would get more respect if they fended for themselves? And if they respected the vast majority of the users of the AT.

A-Train
09-23-2009, 11:23
Maybe thru hikers would get more respect if they fended for themselves? And if they respected the vast majority of the users of the AT.

I'm not advocating for more respect for the thru-hikers and there is nothing "they" could do to be right in the eyes of many, so that is a whole seperate topic.

If I sounded elitist well I apoligized. I'm simply giving a reason why I think shelters serve a purpose and are worthwhile in keeping as part of the bigger AT picture.

Whether a night or 10 in the rain, they are a welcomed respite, for me atleast.

Did I need them? No. Were they delightful during stretches like May of 03' when it rained something like 26 out of 30 days? Heck yes!

Mags
09-23-2009, 16:39
RE: Weekenders and shelters


As an aside, most weekend hikers outside of the AT centric circle tend to tent it.

When I started backpacking in the Whites (and the Berkshires and Catskills to a lesser extent) my buddy and I would use the AT as just another trail on our loops. (OK..we are on the AT, but lets get off it to see the Bond Cliffs! ) The trails off the AT tend to not have lean-tos as general rule. We tented it for various reasons, but a big one was there were simply no shelters. In fact, until I went on my first LD hike (the Long Trail), using a shelter never occurred to me. Even on my initial solo trip weekend trips I only used them once or twice. The shelters just weren't where I backpacked. (http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/component/option,com_gallery2/Itemid,36/?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=7225)

I suspect other weekenders who backpack outside the AT corridor (even back East) tent it as well.

I don't think they suck per se, just that my own shelter is often a better alternative. (With the caveat that on a cold ,rainy night when I have it to myself. ;) )

Just an observation.

Peaks
09-23-2009, 16:55
Well, I've got mixed feelings on this.

First, I consider shelters to be a relic from the past when tents were made from heavy canvas. So, with 3 pound nylon tents, their "necessity" decreases.

Second, shelters are relatively expense to build and maintain.

Third, shelters do attract the party crowd.

Fourth, the AT community would be different without shelters. Most thru-hikers hike solo, or in very small groups, and the social aspects occurs where people camp for the night.

Fifth, shelters provide a way for concentrating the impact. But, perhaps the same could occur if there were good tentsites with water, privy, and picnic table.

So, if I could vote on the topic, I'd like to see a trend toward fewer shelters and replacing shelters with upgraded tentsites.

Schuetzen
09-23-2009, 17:05
I don't see the problem, shelters are there for those who want to use them for whatever reason social, rain etc. and are willing to put up with the problems the shelters have. They concentrate the impact and also leave the rest of the areas less populated for those who want the solitude. Everyone has the choice each night to make their own decision.

Jester2000
09-23-2009, 17:08
Second, shelters are relatively expense to build and maintain. . .

This brings up an interesting question. The cost of building the shelters that exist is already taken care of, and for all of the times I've heard people mention the cost to maintain a shelter, I haven't heard anyone who does maintain a shelter detail how much it costs (or complain about that cost).

So my question is: who's going to pony up the money (and volunteer time) to disassemble and remove the shelters? I'm imagining it's not going to be all of the people on whiteblaze who think they "suck." In fact, I doubt that many people have considered how much it would cost to remove all of the shelters, and I'm confident that there are better uses of our time and resources than doing so.

Blue Jay
09-23-2009, 17:17
This subject comes up over and over ond over with computer hikers. I have never heard one word about this from walking hikers on or near the trail. I have no theory on why computer hikers do not like shelters so much they want other people to tear them down. You would think that computer hikers could simply find some way to walk past them because after all there are many miles between them. Quite the mystery, it can't be just mice and snoring and scary dirt.

Mags
09-23-2009, 17:28
. I have never heard one word about this from walking hikers on or near the trail.


Walking hikers? Is that like jogging runners or bicycling cyclists? :D(

( I did a walking hike last night and this morning. And just finished my food lunch. Next, I am to do my active exercises that I'll follow on my viewing television. ;) )

Blue Jay
09-23-2009, 17:32
Walking hikers? Is that like jogging runners or bicycling cyclists? :D

I don't know for sure because I've never gone to those computer sites, but I think there is a good chance there are computer runners and cyclists as opposed to people who actually run and bicycle more than they type.

Mags
09-23-2009, 17:39
I don't know for sure because I've never gone to those computer sites, but I think there is a good chance there are computer runners and cyclists as opposed to people who actually run and bicycle more than they type.


...but where are the walking hikers and running runners? :D

Chill all.....you all need to actually hike..or perhaps get a sense of levity.

Little did I know when I started backpacking there would be people dictating what are real hikers as opposed to imaginary ones. ;)


OK..I really am off to do a round of exercises. I now weigh what I weighed when I finished the PCT. Gonna keep it that way. ;)

Skyline
09-23-2009, 21:49
This brings up an interesting question. The cost of building the shelters that exist is already taken care of, and for all of the times I've heard people mention the cost to maintain a shelter, I haven't heard anyone who does maintain a shelter detail how much it costs (or complain about that cost).

So my question is: who's going to pony up the money (and volunteer time) to disassemble and remove the shelters? I'm imagining it's not going to be all of the people on whiteblaze who think they "suck." In fact, I doubt that many people have considered how much it would cost to remove all of the shelters, and I'm confident that there are better uses of our time and resources than doing so.


Officially, I've been maintaining a shelter in SNP for nine years. Unofficially, add five more.

The cost to maintain a shelter includes the possibility of reimbursing volunteers for out-of-pocket expenses. Some, like me, rarely put in for reimbursements but many must request such funding due to their financial situations. They deserve it, too.

Expenses include paint, roof sealant, wood on occasion, cleaning supplies, and other expendibles—and sometimes things like brooms when one needs replaced. That's for routine stuff that you do every year or so. When shelters deteriorate over time, major reconstruction is required. Those expenses can be major.

I would not advocate tearing down well-built, structurally sound shelters. But when shelters reach the end of their lifespan, so to speak, I'd dismantle them and let them become firewood rather than do a major rehab. And in most cases I would not build any new shelters on that site or elsewhere on the AT.

In their place, I would build a "campus" of well-designed dispersed tentsites and keep the other amenities that usually are found near shelters. This scenario will cost less to establish than either a major shelter rehab or building a new shelter. Yearly maintenance costs for tentsites are near zero.

Chaco Taco
09-24-2009, 08:11
This subject comes up over and over ond over with computer hikers. I have never heard one word about this from walking hikers on or near the trail. I have no theory on why computer hikers do not like shelters so much they want other people to tear them down. You would think that computer hikers could simply find some way to walk past them because after all there are many miles between them. Quite the mystery, it can't be just mice and snoring and scary dirt.

Posts: 3,281:rolleyes:

Lone Wolf
09-24-2009, 08:14
Most of the people that have been advocating here and the ones who make daily snarky comments about shelters "sucking" are section and weekend hikers.

I have a funny feeling that many of the above mentioned have not walked for weeks/months consecutively while the sky was pouring onto them day and night. For this reason, I'm glad shelters are a viable option on the AT.


shelters suck. i've walked weeks and months on the AT. i set my tent up in the rain

sheepdog
09-24-2009, 08:14
posts: 3,281:rolleyes:
:d............

kanga
09-24-2009, 08:27
Most of the people that have been advocating here and the ones who make daily snarky comments about shelters "sucking" are section and weekend hikers.

I have a funny feeling that many of the above mentioned have not walked for weeks/months consecutively while the sky was pouring onto them day and night. For this reason, I'm glad shelters are a viable option on the AT.

Then again, on a western trail with little to no rain, no need for shelters...
shelters suck. i section now because i have a joby-job. i hike whenever i have free time. however, i have hiked for weeks and months consecutively. while the sky poured on me for days on end. i walked right by the shelters. because they suck. humid pee smell is not an aphrodisiac for me.

kanga
09-24-2009, 08:27
Posts: 3,281:rolleyes:
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

aaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Chaco Taco
09-24-2009, 08:30
Quite the mystery, it can't be just mice and snoring and scary dirt.

Thats enough for me to dislike them:rolleyes:

Skyline
09-24-2009, 10:01
This subject comes up over and over ond over with computer hikers. I have never heard one word about this from walking hikers on or near the trail. I have no theory on why computer hikers do not like shelters so much they want other people to tear them down. You would think that computer hikers could simply find some way to walk past them because after all there are many miles between them. Quite the mystery, it can't be just mice and snoring and scary dirt.


Some "computer hikers" wear more than one hat. Some are "actual" hikers. Others may also be volunteer trail or shelter maintainers. A few may be involved in the hierarchy of ATC or trail maintaining clubs and thus have had to deal with this topic over a number of years. And some may have taken the time/effort to seriously study the impacts of hikers, various modes of camping, etc. on the AT.

Dr. Jeff Marion would be someone who fits the latter category and is superbly qualified to speak to this topic. If anyone has a current e-mail address for him it might be a good idea to let him know about this thread and invite him to respond. If I had it, I would do it myself. Last I knew he was employed at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg.

Jester2000
09-24-2009, 10:40
I would not advocate tearing down well-built, structurally sound shelters. But when shelters reach the end of their lifespan, so to speak, I'd dismantle them and let them become firewood rather than do a major rehab. And in most cases I would not build any new shelters on that site or elsewhere on the AT.

In their place, I would build a "campus" of well-designed dispersed tentsites and keep the other amenities that usually are found near shelters. This scenario will cost less to establish than either a major shelter rehab or building a new shelter. Yearly maintenance costs for tentsites are near zero.

Skyline -- Thanks for the post. This seems like a reasonable way of doing things, although there will always be people/companies/volunteers willing to donate money/time/effort for the building of a shelter but not for other projects.


shelters suck. i've walked weeks and months on the AT. i set my tent up in the rain


shelters suck. i section now because i have a joby-job. i hike whenever i have free time. however, i have hiked for weeks and months consecutively. while the sky poured on me for days on end. i walked right by the shelters. because they suck. humid pee smell is not an aphrodisiac for me.

That's probably why, even if you don't read A-Train's post particularly carefully, you'll notice that he used the word "many" and not "all."

Lone Wolf
09-24-2009, 10:41
i read it. i comprehended. now get back to work.

Jester2000
09-24-2009, 10:46
i read it. i comprehended. now get back to work.

Yessir! Yessir!

The Old Fhart
09-24-2009, 10:52
If there were no shelters, LW would have 5,000 fewer posts and 10,000 words less. :D

A-Train
09-24-2009, 13:27
shelters suck. i've walked weeks and months on the AT. i set my tent up in the rain


shelters suck. i section now because i have a joby-job. i hike whenever i have free time. however, i have hiked for weeks and months consecutively. while the sky poured on me for days on end. i walked right by the shelters. because they suck. humid pee smell is not an aphrodisiac for me.

Somehow I don't believe you walked right by every shelter you've passed while it was raining non-stop and the temps were in the 40's/50's, but if so you are a better man/woman than I.

I won't save a spot for you, that's sure!

Blissful
09-24-2009, 13:32
If there were no shelters, LW would have 5,000 fewer posts and 10,000 words less. :D


Add in bear bags and poles....

:D:D

Blissful
09-24-2009, 13:35
I don't like shelters either but if I don't have to set up or take down a soggy tent in a downpour and add an extra 1-2 lbs, fine with me. About the only time I stay in them.

kanga
09-24-2009, 13:36
Somehow I don't believe you walked right by every shelter you've passed while it was raining non-stop and the temps were in the 40's/50's, but if so you are a better man/woman than I.

I won't save a spot for you, that's sure!

one time in 1996, i got a mild case of hypothermia walking in 50* rainy weather. i was exhausted and a little disoriented. i was thankful for the shelter then.
however, a week later in the first shelter north of hot springs, i decided to stay due to rain. the next morning, i woke up, packed my gear, and as i was rolling up my thermarest, my knee came down in something squooshy. it was a rat i had apparently rolled over on in the middle of the night and flattened like a pancake. after i quit throwing up, it took me forever to get the guts off. there is still a grease spot on my thermarest. i have never stayed in a shelter since. ever.
since then, in passing, i have seen adults do the nastiest **** at or around shelters. camped nearby and heard everybody bitching the next morning about how some idiot didn't want to get up and go out in the rain to go pee, so he peed in the corner inside the shelter. totally disregarding that, just the area in and around the firerings is enough to make me sick. i love dirt and leaves and nature, but man can make the filthiest mess i have ever seen. i go into the woods to get away from mankind. i cannot for the life of me see why anyone would go to the effort to get into nature and then choose to hang around people and their nastiness. it is just beyond me.

A-Train
09-24-2009, 13:40
i go into the woods to get away from mankind. i cannot for the life of me see why anyone would go to the effort to get into nature and then choose to hang around people and their nastiness. it is just beyond me.

What's beyond me is that anyone with that attitude would backpack on the Appalachian Trail, probably the most famous long trail, known for having several hundred shelters.

If you goal is to get away from people and you hate on shelters, why do you use a trail that is famous for both when this country is loaded with places that neither have lean-to's or people?

Blissful
09-24-2009, 13:41
, and as i was rolling up my thermarest, my knee came down in something squooshy. it was a rat i had apparently rolled over on in the middle of the night and flattened like a pancake. after i quit throwing up, it took me forever to get the guts off. .


:eek:oh man, that is too much! Too bad you weren't "armed" then before you went to sleep.

Blissful
09-24-2009, 13:44
"Mankind" made the trail one hikes...so you cannot get away from "man" (nor beast it seems with the rat incident!) no matter what you do unless you bushwhack. :)

kanga
09-24-2009, 13:46
What's beyond me is that anyone with that attitude would backpack on the Appalachian Trail, probably the most famous long trail, known for having several hundred shelters.

If you goal is to get away from people and you hate on shelters, why do you use a trail that is famous for both when this country is loaded with places that neither have lean-to's or people?
because this is the part of the country that i live in and i love the appalachian trail. is that really a difficult concept for you? i also hike the bmt and the pinhoti. and just so we're clear, the at is not famous for it's shelters. it's a trail. the shelters aren't the reason for it being there. the trail is not that crowded. it's not like you go hike and it's the same as going to the mall. i don't do the southern sections when the thrus are starting out en mass. i hit other nearby trails.
also, i don't stop at shelters to rest. i don't stop at shelters to eat (gag). i don't stop at shelters to socialize (gag). you know what i do? i keep walking. on a trail. i know, it's a novel concept.

kanga
09-24-2009, 13:48
"Mankind" made the trail one hikes...so you cannot get away from "man" (nor beast it seems with the rat incident!) no matter what you do unless you bushwhack. :)
well that's one way to look at it i guess. but just because one made the trail, does not mean i will run into them out there. it's still nature.
and yes, i do bushwhack sometimes.

Mags
09-24-2009, 13:53
If you goal is to get away from people and you hate on shelters, why do you use a trail that is famous for both when this country is loaded with places that neither have lean-to's or people?

...most of the trails off the AT are like that.

Amazing when you get off the main trunk line how isolated the East can be.

The Cohos Trail (http://www.cohostrail.org/) is my next back East trail I really want to do. I bet (assuming the weather cooperates) it is *killer* this time of the year. From what I understand, it is a bit of challenge, too and very little used.

Jester2000
09-24-2009, 13:59
because this is the part of the country that i live in and i love the appalachian trail. is that really a difficult concept for you? i also hike the bmt and the pinhoti. and just so we're clear, the at is not famous for it's shelters. it's a trail. the shelters aren't the reason for it being there. the trail is not that crowded. it's not like you go hike and it's the same as going to the mall. i don't do the southern sections when the thrus are starting out en mass. i hit other nearby trails.
also, i don't stop at shelters to rest. i don't stop at shelters to eat (gag). i don't stop at shelters to socialize (gag). you know what i do? i keep walking. on a trail. i know, it's a novel concept.

Well, I think it's relatively well known for having shelters, which is what A-Trail said:

"What's beyond me is that anyone with that attitude would backpack on the Appalachian Trail, probably the most famous long trail, known for having several hundred shelters."

He didn't say it was famous because it had shelters. Although I think the presence of them probably does increase use of the trail.

As an experiment I googled "trail" and "shelters." Out of the first 10 listings, nine were about the AT, and one was about the LT -- which shares shelters with the AT.

Foyt20
09-24-2009, 15:21
I have stayed in the vicinity of several shelters, but have always slept in my tent. For no reason other than mosquitos. If it was February I may have stayed in a few more, but i usually get my BP'ing in between March and Oct-Nov.

kanga
09-24-2009, 15:48
Well, I think it's relatively well known for having shelters, which is what A-Trail said:

"What's beyond me is that anyone with that attitude would backpack on the Appalachian Trail, probably the most famous long trail, known for having several hundred shelters."

He didn't say it was famous because it had shelters. Although I think the presence of them probably does increase use of the trail.

As an experiment I googled "trail" and "shelters." Out of the first 10 listings, nine were about the AT, and one was about the LT -- which shares shelters with the AT.
i just thought it was hilarious that he questioned why i hike the at when i don't like shelters. like that was a requirement. :D

sheepdog
09-24-2009, 15:51
did anyone mention, shelters suck



just askin

Jester2000
09-24-2009, 15:59
i just thought it was hilarious that he questioned why i hike the at when i don't like shelters. like that was a requirement. :D

I kind of see his point, though. Folks posting on here who very obviously take the view that the AT would be a better place if it had no shelters have access to many trails that don't have shelters.

So why hike on the AT? Before I'm attacked for saying, "if you don't like shelters, go hike somewhere else," I'm not saying that. I suppose I wonder what makes those who love the AT love it more than other trails that seem like they might be a better fit for those people who want more of a wilderness experience.

kanga
09-24-2009, 16:18
i love it more than other trails because it was the first long distance trail i ever hiked on. it is what made me fall in love with hiking. it is my home.
you know, i have a house. sometimes i find spiders in it. i love my home. i do not love the spiders. does that mean i should find another home to live in because the spiders suck?
jester please don't take this as an attack, because it's not directed at you. in fact, it's not directed at anybody, it's just a response to something you wrote. but i honestly don't give one squooshed rat's azz whether anybody feels there may be a better fit for me than the at.
yes, i feel the at would not be as abused as it is now, if it was made more of a challenge to experience. lazy people do not like challenges. and lazy people are (usually) the ones that trash a place. why? because they are lazy. it so very obviously takes so much more effort to carry out an empty beer/tuna/spam can that it does to carry the full one in in the first place, you know?

sheepdog
09-24-2009, 16:22
The AT is just one of the trails I hike. It has a certain mystique to it, maybe its the history, I like the feel of the old mountains. Some of the shelters didn't look too bad. Many were just nasty. The ones near the roads and therefore party spots are usually the worst.
I used to think I was going to hike the whole trail in sections. Now I'm not so sure. There are a lot of cool places to hike that are not so crowded.

Jack Tarlin
09-24-2009, 16:30
There are a lot of cool places on the A.T. that aren't crowded, especially if you don't limit yourself to spring and summer. I was recently out in Southern New Hampshire and went the better part of the day without seeing a soul. Looking forward to heading out again in a few days, most likely in VT, in good company......meaning all by myself. That's one of the cool things about being a section hiker: You can pick where and WHEN you want to hike, meaning you don't have to hike Georgia in early March, or Pennsylvania in mid-July.


In some cases, thru hikers hit a certain section at just the right time of the year (like the folks who are finishing up in Maine this week!). But in many cases, a thru-hiker's "schedule" means you're gonna be doing a section at perhaps the WORST time of the year.

For all sorts of reasons, section hiking may be the way to go. :rolleyes:

Skyline
09-24-2009, 16:39
. . . I suppose I wonder what makes those who love the AT love it more than other trails that seem like they might be a better fit for those people who want more of a wilderness experience.


I'll give this a shot.

Some of us who hike on the AT indeed hike on a lot of other trails, too. Mags is a great example of someone who does. A fair number of regulars on WB (among those who actually hike) do.

Myself, in addition to hiking all of the AT once (some sections a bunch more times) I've done all of the Laurel Highlands Trail, parts of the North Country Trail, the Foothills Trail, all of the trails in SNP aside from the AT, parts of the GSMNP aside from the AT, parts of the Mountain-To-Sea Trail, all the trails located on the Massanutten Mountains, all the trails in False Cape State Park (VA) and all of the Mt. Rogers/Grayson High Country (VA). The list could go on. There is a good mix here of sheltered vs. non-sheltered backcountry.

So, it's not like we love the AT "more" than the other trails, or that having shelters or not having shelters is much of a deciding factor on where we hike. (Wouldn't matter to me anyway; I don't sleep in them.) But some of us do "love" the AT. More? Less? Equally? Does it matter? We care about impact on it, what a given impact does to this national treasure, plus its effect on our and others' experiences when we hike the AT.

Those of us who are involved in maintaining, resource protection, etc. have extra reasons to care.

sheepdog
09-24-2009, 16:49
I'll give this a shot.

Some of us who hike on the AT indeed hike on a lot of other trails, too. Mags is a great example of someone who does. A fair number of regulars on WB (among those who actually hike) do.

Myself, in addition to hiking all of the AT once (some sections a bunch more times) I've done all of the Laurel Highlands Trail, parts of the North Country Trail, the Foothills Trail, all of the trails in SNP aside from the AT, parts of the GSMNP aside from the AT, parts of the Mountain-To-Sea Trail, all the trails located on the Massanutten Mountains, all the trails in False Cape State Park (VA) and all of the Mt. Rogers/Grayson High Country (VA). The list could go on. There is a good mix here of sheltered vs. non-sheltered backcountry.

So, it's not like we love the AT "more" than the other trails, or that having shelters or not having shelters is much of a deciding factor on where we hike. (Wouldn't matter to me anyway; I don't sleep in them.) But some of us do "love" the AT. More? Less? Equally? Does it matter? We care about impact on it, what a given impact does to this national treasure, plus its effect on our and others' experiences when we hike the AT.

Those of us who are involved in maintaining, resource protection, etc. have extra reasons to care.
well said....

JaxHiker
09-24-2009, 17:00
Shelters? We don't need no stinkin' shelters. We got hammocks. :-)

Jester2000
09-24-2009, 17:06
Skyline -- good post.

I love the AT, and I've hiked on other trails as well, but I suppose I love the AT for what it is rather than what I think it should be. That's probably not a very good attitude if you want to improve something, but I guess I don't really think it needs much improving.

I don't for example, lament the lack of shelters on the JMT (and no, A-Train, Muir Hut doesn't count, nor does the non-grounded building on top of Whitney).

I don't think the PCT needs more or less trail magic than it already has.

I don't wish the Long Trail was better maintained or that the towns along it had more hostels.

And I'm never going to Kanga's house, because spiders give me the heebie-jeebies, for which there is currently no known cure.

Jester2000
09-24-2009, 17:08
. . . I was recently out in Southern New Hampshire and went the better part of the day without seeing a soul.

If we're going to be accurate here, that has less to do with the time of year than it does with the fact that we all knew you'd be out there.

johnnybgood
09-24-2009, 18:01
did anyone mention, shelters suck



just askin
shelterssuckshelterssuckshelterssuckshelterssuck.. .................................................. :banana

If we're going to be accurate here, that has less to do with the time of year than it does with the fact that we all knew you'd be out there.
How comes I got no stinkin' pm about this ? :D

sheepdog
09-24-2009, 18:51
Shelters? We don't need no stinkin' shelters. We got hammocks. :-)
you are correct

A-Train
09-24-2009, 19:07
i just thought it was hilarious that he questioned why i hike the at when i don't like shelters. like that was a requirement. :D

Not a requirement. Just observing someone who seems to say "shelters suck" on a daily basis on a AT website might want to find a new trail to hike, or a new thing to complain about. ;)

Thanks all.

Lone Wolf
09-24-2009, 19:14
Not a requirement. Just observing someone who seems to say "shelters suck" on a daily basis on a AT website might want to find a new trail to hike, or a new thing to complain about. ;)

Thanks all.shelters suck. i hike the AT around here sans thru-hiker types. it's wonderful. i tent

sheepdog
09-24-2009, 19:19
Not a requirement. Just observing someone who seems to say "shelters suck" on a daily basis on a AT website might want to find a new trail to hike, or a new thing to complain about. ;)

Thanks all.
nope, an you can't make me :p


shelters suck


oh an I ain't complainin, just makin a statement:)

A-Train
09-24-2009, 19:25
shelters suck. i hike the AT around here sans thru-hiker types. it's wonderful. i tent

who said ANYTHING about thru-hikers? You got a complex dude. thru-hikers don't =love shelters.

It's been pretty well pointed out that the vast majority of the slobs that trash shelter areas are local partiers and people who walk in from the parking lot .8 miles away. I'm not ignorant to the fact that some percentage of thru-hikers and section hikers litter and trash, but the culprits are blatant.

But then again, complaining about thru-hikers while living in a trail town is kinda like complaining about shelters all day long on an AT internet site.

I'm done with this discussion, as it has weakened to garbage. I don't think the shelters are going anywhere.

Next time I'm nice and toasty warm and dry, hangin' with the rodents and filth I'll know who not to expect :D

sheepdog
09-24-2009, 19:27
It's really a pointless argument, but it's kind of like a car wreck. It's hard to not look.

Mags
09-24-2009, 19:32
Next time I'm nice and toasty warm and dry, h

Hut trips A-train. Hut trips. Wine, food, fresh powder...
:sun

http://www.pmags.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=19247&g2_serialNumber=2&g2_GALLERYSID=119b28e3dc3f09387b46a5aa240c9c76

I'm a wimp in winter, I readily admit it (been there, done that... with snow caves!)

Blissful
09-24-2009, 19:37
Now that's a nice pic, Mags.

Forget the shelters. We've got a fantastic three story cabin set up in the Smokies for our 20th anniversary in Nov. Complete with a pool table and hot tub. :)

Heater
09-24-2009, 23:21
I doubt that many people have considered how much it would cost to remove all of the shelters

:-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-?

...a nickle?

http://projectpyro.com/images/box%20of%20matches.bmp

dreamsoftrails
09-24-2009, 23:23
Now that's a nice pic, Mags.

Forget the shelters. We've got a fantastic three story cabin set up in the Smokies for our 20th anniversary in Nov. Complete with a pool table and hot tub. :)
you mean gatlinburg?

Skyline
09-24-2009, 23:54
Skyline -- good post.

I love the AT, and I've hiked on other trails as well, but I suppose I love the AT for what it is rather than what I think it should be. That's probably not a very good attitude if you want to improve something, but I guess I don't really think it needs much improving . . .

(snip)

. . . And I'm never going to Kanga's house, because spiders give me the heebie-jeebies, for which there is currently no known cure.


Fair enough. Since I don't really think we're going into shelter-dismantling mode just yet, much as it might please some of us.

Gotta get back to work on a heebie-jeebies vaccine.

kanga
09-25-2009, 07:51
Not a requirement. Just observing someone who seems to say "shelters suck" on a daily basis on a AT website might want to find a new trail to hike, or a new thing to complain about. ;)

Thanks all.
shelters suck.:welcome

Blue Jay
09-25-2009, 09:22
Thats enough for me to dislike them:rolleyes:

Dislike is fine, I use them a little less than half the time. Having them torn down so others cannot use them is a problem for many computer hikers. I don't remember claiming not to be one. I'd write ha many times but, typing waste is another function of computer hiking I don't agree with.

Blue Jay
09-25-2009, 09:28
Some "computer hikers" wear more than one hat. Some are "actual" hikers. Others may also be volunteer trail or shelter maintainers. A few may be involved in the hierarchy of ATC or trail maintaining clubs and thus have had to deal with this topic over a number of years. And some may have taken the time/effort to seriously study the impacts of hikers, various modes of camping, etc. on the AT.

Exactly, these are the people I'm not talking about, there is no "may" about it. People who actually supprt the infrastructure of the trail. I do not like insulting the people who built and maintain these, in many cases historic, buildings. Shelters are as much a part of the AT as the mountains they are built on.

Blue Jay
09-25-2009, 09:35
one time in 1996, i got a mild case of hypothermia walking in 50* rainy weather. i was exhausted and a little disoriented. i was thankful for the shelter then.
however, a week later in the first shelter north of hot springs, i decided to stay due to rain. the next morning, i woke up, packed my gear, and as i was rolling up my thermarest, my knee came down in something squooshy. it was a rat i had apparently rolled over on in the middle of the night and flattened like a pancake. after i quit throwing up, it took me forever to get the guts off. there is still a grease spot on my thermarest. i have never stayed in a shelter since. ever.
since then, in passing, i have seen adults do the nastiest **** at or around shelters. camped nearby and heard everybody bitching the next morning about how some idiot didn't want to get up and go out in the rain to go pee, so he peed in the corner inside the shelter. totally disregarding that, just the area in and around the firerings is enough to make me sick. i love dirt and leaves and nature, but man can make the filthiest mess i have ever seen. i go into the woods to get away from mankind. i cannot for the life of me see why anyone would go to the effort to get into nature and then choose to hang around people and their nastiness. it is just beyond me.

OK, we get it you do not want to stay at a shelter. No one wants you to do so. Why exactly do you want to stop the rest of humanity from doing so? You claim to not want to hang around people and their nastyness but at the same time you want to SAVE them from nasty shelters by having someone else tear them down. I think you shaould stand in front of each one with your hand on a bible and yell "HEAL".

Blue Jay
09-25-2009, 09:41
:-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-?

...a nickle?

http://projectpyro.com/images/box%20of%20matches.bmp

This is really really really not a good time to recommend arson on public land.

Alligator
09-25-2009, 09:44
This is really really really not a good time to recommend arson on public land.Point noted, but it was a hypothetical response for a quick way of removal. Let's not tie the thread up about the post and move on. Thanks.

Skyline
09-25-2009, 09:45
Exactly, these are the people I'm not talking about, there is no "may" about it. People who actually supprt the infrastructure of the trail. I do not like insulting the people who built and maintain these, in many cases historic, buildings. . .



Respect for the volunteers and for history are two reasons why, in an earlier post, I wrote that I didn't think well-built, structurally sound shelters should be euthanized. But over time many shelter structures will expire from natural causes.

I'm saying don't spend a bundle to rehab most of these; dismantle them and use the resulting firewood at new well-planned tentsite communities near the same sites. In most situations, I would also put a moratorium on building replacement shelters on these sites or brand new shelters elsewhere.

Yes, shelters are an integral part of the present-day AT. Some of us think the future AT would be a better place with more Dr. Marion-style tentsite groupings and fewer shelters.

But my magic wand quit working years ago, so I think your position will likely prevail. :D

sheepdog
09-25-2009, 11:23
Exactly, these are the people I'm not talking about, there is no "may" about it. People who actually supprt the infrastructure of the trail. I do not like insulting the people who built and maintain these, in many cases historic, buildings. Shelters are as much a part of the AT as the mountains they are built on.
I don't think so

Picture the AT with no mountains



picture the AT with no shelters


big difference

kanga
09-25-2009, 11:55
OK, we get it you do not want to stay at a shelter. No one wants you to do so. Why exactly do you want to stop the rest of humanity from doing so? You claim to not want to hang around people and their nastyness but at the same time you want to SAVE them from nasty shelters by having someone else tear them down. I think you shaould stand in front of each one with your hand on a bible and yell "HEAL".
oh lawd! you and your soap boxes. zzzzzzzz....
i don't want to save them. i want to clean up the trail and the impact irresponsible peopole make. you do know this is a thread about a hypothetical question, right? i think maybe you need a valium.

Chaco Taco
09-25-2009, 11:56
This is really really really not a good time to recommend arson on public land.

Yea you really dont make much sense with your whole computer hiker term. You criticize so much and are one yourself. Get to the point or move on

Chaco Taco
09-25-2009, 11:56
:D
oh lawd! you and your soap boxes. zzzzzzzz....
i don't want to save them. i want to clean up the trail and the impact irresponsible peopole make. you do know this is a thread about a hypothetical question, right? i think maybe you need a valium.

or a hike:D

kanga
09-25-2009, 11:57
:D

or a hike:D
i don't think he's "real" hiker..:rolleyes:

Chaco Taco
09-25-2009, 12:00
OK, we get it you do not want to stay at a shelter. No one wants you to do so. Why exactly do you want to stop the rest of humanity from doing so? You claim to not want to hang around people and their nastyness but at the same time you want to SAVE them from nasty shelters by having someone else tear them down. I think you shaould stand in front of each one with your hand on a bible and yell "HEAL".

Wow, thats what you came up with???

kanga
09-25-2009, 12:04
i told you. valium.

Chaco Taco
09-25-2009, 12:11
i told you. valium.

huffin spraypaint????

Mags
09-25-2009, 13:22
I'm saying don't spend a bundle to rehab most of these; dismantle them and use the resulting firewood at new well-planned tentsite communities near the same sites.


When I was a walking hiker in Canada recently, the backcountry campsites are generally like that. Separate tentsites with community eating (and bear bagging) areas.

The groups of backpackers mingled, talked and swapped stories at the eating area and moved back to their tents at night.

A sense of community was established quite nicely.

sheepdog
09-25-2009, 13:28
When I was a walking hiker in Canada recently, the backcountry campsites are generally like that. Separate tentsites with community eating (and bear bagging) areas.

The groups of backpackers mingled, talked and swapped stories at the eating area and moved back to their tents at night.

A sense of community was established quite nicely.
you betcha by golly eh!!

Jester2000
09-25-2009, 13:30
When I was a walking hiker in Canada recently, the backcountry campsites are generally like that. Separate tentsites with community eating (and bear bagging) areas.

The groups of backpackers mingled, talked and swapped stories at the eating area and moved back to their tents at night.

A sense of community was established quite nicely.

Well yeah, but that was in Canada.

Mags
09-25-2009, 13:44
Well yeah, but that was in Canada.


Not sure of your point. Are Americans too rude to adapt to the Dr. Marion style campsites that are being made on the Appalachian Trail in America? ;)

I think community is a large part of the AT experience... And that sense of community can be done quite well in the moderate manner Skyline proposed. (gradual phase in of tent sites with community areas)

Mags
09-25-2009, 13:46
you betcha by golly eh!!

Super gravy.'eh!

dreamsoftrails
09-25-2009, 14:12
:banana
Not sure of your point. Are Americans too rude to adapt to the Dr. Marion style campsites that are being made on the Appalachian Trail in America? ;)

I think community is a large part of the AT experience... And that sense of community can be done quite well in the moderate manner Skyline proposed. (gradual phase in of tent sites with community areas)
IMO, community can be achieved in any number of ways, including shelters, no shelters, tent sites with 'community areas' or absolutely nothing in the way of constructed facilities. its about people being on the trail, and i have always found 'community' to be stronger when each has their own tent or shelter, because then everyone is doing exactly their thing, and they can all sit around a cozy fire. those have been the most 'communal' times for me. not crowding into a shelter, a hotel room, a hostel.

sheepdog
09-25-2009, 14:27
I just hiked the Pictured Rocks Lakeshore Trail in Michigan. No shelters. We had three other groups that hiked our same route sharing the same campgrounds. A good sense of community developed between the groups in a short amount of time.

Jester2000
09-25-2009, 14:39
Not sure of your point. Are Americans too rude to adapt to the Dr. Marion style campsites that are being made on the Appalachian Trail in America? ;)

I think community is a large part of the AT experience... And that sense of community can be done quite well in the moderate manner Skyline proposed. (gradual phase in of tent sites with community areas)

Oh, Mags, you know me. Half the time I'm not even sure of my point. Canadians are nicer, though, aren't they? At least right up until they show up on New England beaches wearing Speedos.


:banana
IMO, community can be achieved in any number of ways, including shelters, no shelters, tent sites with 'community areas' or absolutely nothing in the way of constructed facilities. . .

I believe community can be best achieved by everyone not wearing pants.

sheepdog
09-25-2009, 14:58
Super gravy.'eh!
you betcha by golly, what say we walk up der side by each and get some more eh!!

Mags
09-25-2009, 15:54
Oh, Mags, you know me. Half the time I'm not even sure of my point. Canadians are nicer, though, aren't they? At least right up until they show up on New England beaches wearing Speedos.



I never have a point myself...

However, I think the people you see in New England are Quebecois. Or, as one very adamant Quebecer once told me when I asked if he was from Canada..

"I am not from Canada..I am from Quebec!"

(Said in a very distinct French-Canadian accent)

No idea if Jax or FamilyGuy wear speedos. Please don't send photos. :O

Skyline
09-25-2009, 16:50
:banana
IMO, community can be achieved in any number of ways, including shelters, no shelters, tent sites with 'community areas' or absolutely nothing in the way of constructed facilities. its about people being on the trail, and i have always found 'community' to be stronger when each has their own tent or shelter, because then everyone is doing exactly their thing, and they can all sit around a cozy fire. those have been the most 'communal' times for me. not crowding into a shelter, a hotel room, a hostel.


Agreed. If the tentsites are individual, and spaced far enough from each other, there are usually no issues of one hiker's habits, sleep hours, arrival/departure times, snoring, farting, etc. bothering others. The group picnic table, fire ring, etc. are opportunities for "community" in all but the most wicked weather.

What we need at future Trail Days, Rucks, or ALDHA Gatherings are ongoing hands-on skill-building demos of best practices putting up/taking down tents or other portable shelters in the rain. Maybe these have been done before and I wasn't there, but I truly think if both experienced and inexperienced hikers got more comfortable with this task there would be less "need" for shelters on the AT. Because really, it's not a "need" anyway--it's a "want."

Blue Jay
09-25-2009, 16:53
Yea you really dont make much sense with your whole computer hiker term. You criticize so much and are one yourself. Get to the point or move on

My point is quite simple and you both continue to avoid it, quite well actually. Bobbing and weaving, lobbing distractions, and never coming near even mentioning your position which you cannot defend. Why, exactly does it bother you that others want to use shelters, so much so that you want shelters eliminated?

Mags
09-25-2009, 17:05
der side by each

In Woonsocket, RI many old timers (well, less and less now) still say that phrase (along with 'close the light') because of the French-Canadian grammar still present in English speech patterns. Like most regional speech patterns, these phrases are dying out quickly.

OTOH, many people in New England (esp with areas with French-Canadian enclaves) will say "toque" instead of ski cap/beanie/watch cap, etc. Hell, when I first moved out here , I was still saying "toque". No one knew what the hell I meant. :) See..those wily French-Canadians ruined the New England dialect! ;)

Heater
09-25-2009, 18:22
Hell, when I first moved out here , I was still saying "toque". No one knew what the hell I meant. :) See..those wily French-Canadians ruined the New England dialect! ;)

Hell, I knew what you were talking aboot.

(Thanks to Bob and Doug McKensie)

So... Take off, hoser...

sheepdog
09-25-2009, 19:54
sounds like French-Canadian is a lot like yooper (they way they talk in Michigans upper peninsula or UP)

Blissful
09-25-2009, 20:08
you mean gatlinburg?


No. Some ridgetop - forgot the name of the town with great views. Hubby knows all that stuff.

emerald
09-25-2009, 21:27
Why, exactly does it bother you that others want to use shelters, so much so that you want shelters eliminated?

You ask a fine question Blue Jay. I'd love to hear the reply, but I won't be holding my breath while waiting for it.

dreamsoftrails
09-25-2009, 21:37
Agreed. If the tentsites are individual, and spaced far enough from each other, there are usually no issues of one hiker's habits, sleep hours, arrival/departure times, snoring, farting, etc. bothering others.

.......
. Because really, it's not a "need" anyway--it's a "want."
well said.

i actually believe the AT would be far more communal absent the shelters. in bad weather, the inexperienced would be drawn together and forced to cope with the conditions only with eachother and their own gear.

i say the shelters remove alot of opportunity to come together in more significant, real ways.

emerald
09-25-2009, 22:31
I actually believe the AT would be far more communal absent the shelters. In bad weather, the inexperienced would be drawn together and forced to cope with the conditions only with each other and their own gear.

Maybe you believe what you say, but you haven't made much sense.


I say the shelters remove a lot of opportunity to come together in more significant, real ways.

It's a damn shame people are forced to connect with one another at shelters in such a phony, contrived manner and take home only memories of trivial experiences. Given a choice, I'm sure the inexperienced would prefer to sleep with dreamsoftrails and benefit from the depth of his wisdom.

While they fumble in the darkness in fear of noises in the night, he will be stealthily slumbering in complete harmony with nature. Thank God above, he posts here to inspire us all with his words.

freefall
09-25-2009, 23:09
What we need at future Trail Days, Rucks, or ALDHA Gatherings are ongoing hands-on skill-building demos of best practices putting up/taking down tents or other portable shelters in the rain. Maybe these have been done before and I wasn't there, but I truly think if both experienced and inexperienced hikers got more comfortable with this task there would be less "need" for shelters on the AT. Because really, it's not a "need" anyway--it's a "want."

This is a great idea! And if either, I'm not employed by May or my employer is generous with time off, I would love to demo this in conjunction with the ATC or some other group.

I have never had a problem setting my tent or hammock up in the rain and staying fairly dry.

ed bell
09-25-2009, 23:34
:banana
IMO, community can be achieved in any number of ways, including shelters, no shelters, tent sites with 'community areas' or absolutely nothing in the way of constructed facilities. its about people being on the trail, and i have always found 'community' to be stronger when each has their own tent or shelter, because then everyone is doing exactly their thing, and they can all sit around a cozy fire. those have been the most 'communal' times for me. not crowding into a shelter, a hotel room, a hostel.Well, to be fair, anyone who straps on a backpack and steps away from the car becomes a member of the backpacking community.

freefall
09-25-2009, 23:37
Not sure of your point. Are Americans too rude to adapt to the Dr. Marion style campsites that are being made on the Appalachian Trail in America? ;)

I think community is a large part of the AT experience... And that sense of community can be done quite well in the moderate manner Skyline proposed. (gradual phase in of tent sites with community areas)

I'm going to have to research more about Dr Marion and his campsite plan. I am currently reading a book about humans finding there way in space and it is actually a good read. A little dry but makes you think. (You Are Here: Why we Can Find our Way To the Moon, but Get Lost in the Mall" Colin Ellard)

I have to agree that the AT is at least somewhat about community. I probably would have ditched way before DWG if it hadn't been for the people I met along the way. The camaraderie, the competition, etc... all made for a wonderful trip.

Do the shelters contribute to that sense? Probably. Though, I would say the absence of shelters would still have people gravitating to areas that are succinct for the end of the day camping. Water, flat and dry ground....that is what most AT hikers look for at the end of the day. The shelters have just been huge pins marking the map when it comes to water sources.

There was a shelter caretaker in PA that I met and his shelter was well groomed.He stated he even had solar light up at the shelter but they made him take them down.

While he had some good intentions, I got the feeling that he was competing against someone else for "best shelter award." Is this really necessary? Would these "competitions" be better suited if they were about trail maintenance rather than who had turn down service at what shelter?

I know it is a difficult question. But I feel that the trail would be better off if money and time, were directed to the trail rather than a shelter.

JoshStover
09-25-2009, 23:38
If we could just find a way to eliminate the spiders, the shelters would be more appealing to me. Until then I will be using my hammock (in decent weather). Once the "Big Storm" hits you will find me lounging in the shelter dry as a bone.

freefall
09-25-2009, 23:44
If we could just find a way to eliminate the spiders, the shelters would be more appealing to me. Until then I will be using my hammock (in decent weather). Once the "Big Storm" hits you will find me lounging in the shelter dry as a bone.

I have a woken to a spider in my hammock before. Do not know how it got there as the opening was cinched but he was there none the less. I just gather them, let them loose in woods nearby and wish them well.

JoshStover
09-26-2009, 00:12
Wow, youre more brave than I. I either squash them or just sit there and cry and try not to pee myself...

warraghiyagey
09-26-2009, 01:27
Well, to be fair, anyone who straps on a backpack and steps away from the car becomes a member of the backpacking community.
:clap:clap

freefall
09-26-2009, 01:38
Wow, youre more brave than I. I either squash them or just sit there and cry and try not to pee myself...

Nah, I just see spiders as beneficial so I leave them alone.

Chaco Taco
09-26-2009, 10:04
Oh, Mags, you know me. Half the time I'm not even sure of my point. Canadians are nicer, though, aren't they? At least right up until they show up on New England beaches wearing Speedos.



I believe community can be best achieved by everyone not wearing pants.

Take off Hoser!

Chaco Taco
09-26-2009, 10:05
http://skypeck.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/strange-brew.jpg

sheepdog
09-26-2009, 10:37
Maybe you believe what you say, but you haven't made much sense. Put some flesh on your bones.



It's a damn shame people are forced to connect with one another at shelters in such a phony, contrived manner and take home only memories of trivial experiences. Given a choice, I'm sure the inexperienced would prefer to camp with dreamsoftrails and benefit from the depth of his wisdom.

While they fumble in the darkness in fear of noises in the night, he will be stealthily slumbering in complete harmony with nature. Thank God above, he posts here to inspire us all with his words.
kind of goes hand in hand with your deep kindness, thoughtfulness and ability to build others up

emerald
09-26-2009, 12:27
kind of goes hand in hand with your deep kindness, thoughtfulness and ability to build others up

Thanks. He isn't going anywhere, doesn't scare off easily and I respect that attribute in a person. I was just hoping he would think though his own thoughts and do a bit more editing before posting them.

Where is he, now that I am more inclined to argue and in need of posts? Playing hard to get no doubt.

By the way, I do appreciate Bob and Doug for what it's worth.

mudhead
09-26-2009, 12:35
"Quick. Get his dish before he kills us."

Seems like the WSJ thread might be lined up for a good snit regarding the merits of the paper, when smearing.

You have fun.

superman
09-26-2009, 13:09
Wow, youre more brave than I. I either squash them or just sit there and cry and try not to pee myself...

I kill the spiders in my tent the same way I kill ticks...with an ice pick. It was a a good, naturalist way to do it until the perscription for my glasses changed. With all the holes in my tent I try not to be camp out in the rain now. :)

sheldonII
09-26-2009, 15:41
After walking in the rain all day, would you rather arrive at a shelter, or set your tent up in the rain?

johnnybgood
09-26-2009, 16:10
After walking in the rain all day, would you rather arrive at a shelter, or set your tent up in the rain?
Arrive at a shelter for cover during a downpour...yes .
Stay there overnight , depends on the weather and if I had the shelter to myself.

Chaco Taco
09-26-2009, 17:52
Set Your Tent Up In The Rain?

Any Day Of The Week

dreamsoftrails
09-26-2009, 17:56
After walking in the rain all day, would you rather arrive at a shelter, or set your tent up in the rain?
i would like to have no choice. things are easier on the mind that way.

kanga
09-27-2009, 16:58
After walking in the rain all day, would you rather arrive at a shelter, or set your tent up in the rain?
set up my tent in the rain.

warraghiyagey
09-27-2009, 17:15
set up my tent in the rain.
Liar!!! . . .

http://pics.livejournal.com/southernoracle/pic/000g7xr2

Skyline
09-27-2009, 20:36
After walking in the rain all day, would you rather arrive at a shelter, or set your tent up in the rain?


One vote for: Set up my tent in the rain.

Did it yesterday after hiking in some much needed precip all day. A few of those blue shop towels sopped up what water made it inside. Much better sleeping in my tent than in a "shelter."

Tilly
09-27-2009, 20:41
I LOVE AT SHELTERS!

GOD BLESS THEM, EVERY ONE!!!

I think they should build more. I, for one, never want to set up my tent in the rain ever again. I was so, so happy for shelters on the AT this year.

Chaco Taco
09-28-2009, 06:51
I LOVE AT SHELTERS!

GOD BLESS THEM, EVERY ONE!!!

I think they should build more. I, for one, never want to set up my tent in the rain ever again. I was so, so happy for shelters on the AT this year.

Never want to set up your tent in the rain? You aint a hiker

freefall
09-28-2009, 08:29
Never want to set up your tent in the rain? You aint a hiker

"Kinda agree."


sidenote: There was this amazing Mexican restaurant downtown in Asheville about 5/6 years ago. I don't know if its still there or what the name is but it was great!

Tilly
09-28-2009, 09:37
Never want to set up your tent in the rain? You aint a hiker

I dont' need you to tell me that I'm not a hiker, Mr. Taco. I've walked and tented through more rain than you have in your ENTIRE LIFE. For you to tell me that I'm not a hiker is laughable, really.
You can be out tenting when there are 10 inches of standing water on the ground. Me, I'll use the wonderful, wonderful shelters on the AT.

Chaco Taco
09-28-2009, 09:46
"Kinda agree."


sidenote: There was this amazing Mexican restaurant downtown in Asheville about 5/6 years ago. I don't know if its still there or what the name is but it was great!

Salsa's????

Chaco Taco
09-28-2009, 09:49
I dont' need you to tell me that I'm not a hiker, Mr. Taco. I've walked and tented through more rain than you have in your ENTIRE LIFE. For you to tell me that I'm not a hiker is laughable, really.
You can be out tenting when there are 10 inches of standing water on the ground. Me, I'll use the wonderful, wonderful shelters on the AT.

If you want to throw mileage around fine, its not about the amount you have done. You have no idea how much I have hiked.
I was just messin with ya anyway. Still, shelters take away from the whole wilderness experience.

Lightin up:rolleyes:

Chaco Taco
09-28-2009, 09:50
I dont' need you to tell me that I'm not a hiker, Mr. Taco. I've walked and tented through more rain than you have in your ENTIRE LIFE. For you to tell me that I'm not a hiker is laughable, really.
You can be out tenting when there are 10 inches of standing water on the ground. Me, I'll use the wonderful, wonderful shelters on the AT.

You got that right, it is Mr Taco to you. Dont you forget it:D

Tilly
09-28-2009, 09:54
If you want to throw mileage around fine, its not about the amount you have done. You have no idea how much I have hiked.
I was just messin with ya anyway. Still, shelters take away from the whole wilderness experience.

Lightin up:rolleyes:

Likewise, you have no idea how much I've done, either, so why did you tell me that I'm not a hiker? I doubt you were "just messing with me" but fair enough.

Chaco Taco
09-28-2009, 09:59
Likewise, you have no idea how much I've done, either, so why did you tell me that I'm not a hiker? I doubt you were "just messing with me" but fair enough. CUZ YOU SLEEP IN A BOX WHEN YOU ARE IN THE WOODS!!!!! I never questioned how much you had done, just called you out as a shelter user.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings you hiking god.
http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/2/9/128786980047174199.jpg

Chaco Taco
09-28-2009, 10:01
The one thing that killed me in shelters, when you set up next to someone that says, "hey if I snore too loud, just kick me" That was enough to have me say, "ok, Im outta here"

Tilly
09-28-2009, 10:04
CUZ YOU SLEEP IN A BOX WHEN YOU ARE IN THE WOODS!!!!! I never questioned how much you had done, just called you out as a shelter user.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings you hiking god.
http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/2/9/128786980047174199.jpg

You don't need to give me a sarcastic/passive aggressive apology, Mr. Taco.

Chaco Taco
09-28-2009, 10:08
You don't need to give me a sarcastic/passive aggressive apology, Mr. Taco.

Let it go dude, let it go. Its a joke. This is just a website. Its ok to mess around a little, let it go.

Tilly
09-28-2009, 10:09
I don't view the AT as "wilderness" anyway. I have odd ideas about that. I think the AT is a big garden. I like the parts where there are old homesteads and rock walls.

Besides, I've slept in wooden shelters. You've slept in silicone impregnated nylon. You sleep in a triangle! Triangle sleeper!:)

Chaco Taco
09-28-2009, 10:10
I don't view the AT as "wilderness" anyway. I have odd ideas about that. I think the AT is a big garden. I like the parts where there are old homesteads and rock walls.

Besides, I've slept in wooden shelters. You've slept in silicone impregnated nylon. You sleep in a triangle! Triangle sleeper!:)

Dont worry, im not going to feed your ego, time to move on.

freefall
09-28-2009, 10:16
I don't view the AT as "wilderness" anyway. I have odd ideas about that. I

What about the wilderness areas that the AT traverses?

Chaco Taco
09-28-2009, 10:18
What about the wilderness areas that the AT traverses?

Yea right? Nice wilderness area here in NC