View Full Version : The dog question.
I'm new to the AT, and this site. I started hiking because I got a dog. I was surprised to find the dog question so controversial. I never realized how many people had negative dog encounters on the trail. All of the complaints I read seemed like they would be non-issues if handlers used common sense - evidently it's not as common as I thought. The sticky at the top of the dog forum suggests posting here if you want to discuss the issue of dogs on the trail, but I didn't find a single poll with the word 'dog' in the title. I found the 'debates' I read seemed evenly split one way or the other, but I wanted to see a poll - so I made one.
skinewmexico
09-23-2009, 03:30
I like dogs, but I'd sure hate to have to mess with the care and feeding and gear for one of the trail.
In March of 1999, I set out with my Chesapeake Bay Retriever, Sagan, on an attempt to thru hike the AT. It was a very interesting experience. Sagan was an extremely good hiker but not such a good camper.
I made several mistakes. First of all, I think I should have carried a tent instead of just a tarp. When I was trying to get Sagan to lie down and go to sleep, he would not relax and go to sleep because he was trying to look out into the woods and would not relax. I feel like if we would have been inside a tent, he would have relaxed.
The second big mistake I made was I cut the ends off of the belly strap that is on the dog backpack. I cut the strap shorter so that it would not flop around underneath him when he was walking. This turned out to be a stupid mistake because the nylon strap came unraveled during the first day of our hike.
I was amazed at how good of a hiker Sagan was. He would walk out in front of me for about 20 yards and always stay on the trail. Sometimes he would hike up to the top of a hill and then just sit there and wait for me to catch up with him.
We hiked from Amicola Falls to Suches, Georgia. It was a great learning experience.
I am planning on picking up where I left off in May of next year. (2010).
I am hoping to hike from Suches, Ga. to Hanover, NH.
This time I am not going to take a dog. But I am sure I will miss him.
Michael
i rarely hike without both my girls. i don't think dogs are such a problem on the trail. i think that just like real life, you hear more negative than good because people like to bitch, but rarely take the time to praise.
warraghiyagey
09-23-2009, 08:04
It's obvious when you meet a 'bad dog' on the trail where the blame lies, ALWAYS with the owner. . . . .
It's obvious when you meet a 'bad dog' on the trail where the blame lies, ALWAYS with the owner. . . . .
I'll second that...
jeepcj258
09-23-2009, 08:18
It's obvious when you meet a 'bad dog' on the trail where the blame lies, ALWAYS with the owner. . . . .
Agreed.
I don't mind dogs on the trail, and often have mine with me.
warraghiyagey
09-23-2009, 08:22
It's actually one of the nice surprises on a hiking day when you meet up with one of the 'good' owners and their dog. . . :sun . . . fuzz therapy. . .
It's obvious when you meet a 'bad dog' on the trail where the blame lies, ALWAYS with the owner. . . . .
I"ll third that.
The worst is "it's OK... he's friendly." I don't effin care if he's friendly if he's jumping on me, pissing on my stuff, barking at me, etc. It's not OK.
FritztheCat
09-23-2009, 09:58
My only problem with dogs on the trail is the owners who refuse to use leashes. If the rules of the trail say dogs must be on a leash, then keep them on a leash. Simple enough but there are always those who can't seem to follow this simple procedure.
I don't like dogs in general but can certainly understand why one would be a great companion on a hike.
SmokyMtn Hiker
09-23-2009, 10:03
It's obvious when you meet a 'bad dog' on the trail where the blame lies, ALWAYS with the owner. . . . .
Well said !
warraghiyagey
09-23-2009, 10:03
The worst is "it's OK... he's friendly." I don't effin care if he's friendly if he's jumping on me, pissing on my stuff, barking at me, etc. It's not OK.
Makes you wonder what the hell the owner is missing. . . a particular lobe perhaps. . .
superman
09-23-2009, 10:27
Hiking with a dog is not just walking. You should get the information you need to do it better. WB has some articles and there are other sources availble. http://www.whiteblaze.net/index.php?page=dogs :)
sheepdog
09-23-2009, 10:32
It's obvious when you meet a 'bad dog' on the trail where the blame lies, ALWAYS with the owner. . . . .
not my dog
he's just evil
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/4/9/2/0/img_5933_thumb.jpg (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showimage.php?i=27021&catid=member&orderby=title&direction=ASC&imageuser=14920&cutoffdate=-1)
warraghiyagey
09-23-2009, 10:43
not my dog
he's just evil
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/files/1/4/9/2/0/img_5933_thumb.jpg (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showimage.php?i=27021&catid=member&orderby=title&direction=ASC&imageuser=14920&cutoffdate=-1)
Yeah, but I bet he's alot of fun. . . . looks like trouble. . . :)
sheepdog
09-23-2009, 10:46
definately trouble
warraghiyagey
09-23-2009, 10:48
Stupid pets are the best, there's an extra layer of innocence to them. . . :sun:sun:sun
Naughty pets are funny too, in moderation. . . :)
sheepdog
09-23-2009, 11:37
smart dogs are the toughests
they always want to know why
and
can you really make me do it
smart dogs are the toughests
they always want to know why
and
can you really make me do it
Smart dogs can be harder to train, but done properly the results are usually better. My dog, Hurley the-half-breed-border-collie, herds sheep for a living (literally). Believe me when I say squirels and thru-hikers are little temptation for him.
Blissful
09-23-2009, 14:02
Okay - someone post the pic of the can of worms again...
(I need to get that pic in my arsenal)
:)
Anyway, I refuse to comment further. Esp after an encounter with one nasty barking dog almost made me fall inot a raging river in ME and I yelled at the owner.
Buzz_Lightfoot
09-23-2009, 14:39
It's obvious when you meet a 'bad dog' on the trail where the blame lies, ALWAYS with the owner. . . . .
If you meet a bad hiker, is it the dog's fault?
If you meet a bad hiker, is it the dog's fault?Nope, the dog can't help if its owner is an ass.
Here you go:
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805495/k.9C34/Hiking_with_Dogs.htm
SassyWindsor
09-24-2009, 00:55
For sure, the "dog thread" is always a crowd-pleaser.
Sadly, my observations while hiking has the leashed dog at somewhere between 1 and 3 percent out of all dogs seen on any trail(s) I've hiked. Those unleashed dogs are almost always jumping on me / begging for food / wet and stinking (wet from getting into creeks) using the bathroom everywhere. The very few people with leashed dogs have the same problem with the unleashed ones. I don't worry myself with thoughtless hikers who bring their dogs, I just ignore them and keep going. Most bring them for a "stroll" anyway. Same goes with littering hikers with bad potty habits as just part of a complete portfolio of other bad/annoying habits. This crowd (dog and bad habit bunch) broke me from using shelters very quickly.
My dog never goes off the leash (if she did I would never see her again) so i guess im in the 1-3 percent. Good for me :D
It saddens me that so many people have learned that an unleashed dog is a problem dog; the reality is an unleashed and inadequately trained dog is a problem dog - and yes, that's the owners' problem, not the dog's. Too many owners use the leash as a poor substitute for training. A dog needs to be trained to behave appropriately both on the leash and off the leash. A leashed dog can have many of the same problems as an unleashed one. They can still bark, they can still bite, and they can even - if determined enough - still run. These problems, among others, can only be resolved with training.
Further, the leash can introduce a whole new set of problems. Some specific to hiking; its dangerous enough to scramble a 40 degree rock face with a 40 pound pack, infinitely more so if you're trying to hold the leash of a forty pound animal. Some are problems at large. Perhaps the biggest of which is the restriction you impose on a dog's 'vocabulary'. Dogs rarely communicate with noise - whimpering, squealing, barking, growling, snarling (as an aside; snarling and growling are not the same noise and mean entirely different things, furthermore not all barks are created equal, they can mean several different things, not all of which are 'bad'); The vast majority of a dog's communications are visual ones; they 'speak' body language. The ear position, the lip position, the head position, the tail position, the back position, the hackles and the paws, all of these are used in conjunction with one another to 'say' something about how the dog is feeling and intending to act long before the dog makes so much as a squeak. To make matters more complicated, it's not just position that communicates something, there is motion and even rate of motion as well. The leash severely restricts this language. Couple that restriction of language with the elimination of the flight half of fight-or-flight and add a dash of the owner's anxiety transmitted through a taught leash and you've just made yourself a dog who is ready to fight. They might not be snarling yet, but they may be well on the way. Ask yourself this: Is your leashed dog transmitting aggression signals to an approaching dog? Would you know if he was? Can you 'read' the approaching dog either? and no, a wagging tail is not necessarily a good thing - it depends on how it's being wagged. If your not fluent in a dogs language, you might want to pick up a book written by Dr. Stanley Coren called "How to Speak Dog". This recommendation is not just for dog owners, it would benefit anyone who is likely to encounter a dog anywhere, on the trail or otherwise.
If leashing a dog is not always the answer, then what is? Of course, not bringing your dog on a hiking trail would eliminate the rock scrambling problem for sure. It would also eliminate the standing in springs problem, the shaking water on people problem, the muddy shelter problem, the barking at hikers problem, and the chasing of wildlife problem. But your not solving any of these problems by not bringing your dog on the trail - your avoiding them, or more likely, moving them to your local park or neighborhood. There is only one answer to this; training. I don't mean puppy school for three weeks when you first bring your dog home either, I mean everyday in every situation. If your dog learns to sit when you tell him to sit at home, don't expect him to know to do it on the trail. Dogs don't generalize well. You may think your dog is responding to the word 'sit' when you say it; but he's responding to much more than that. He's responding to the way you say 'sit', how your standing when you say it, what room your in, where your looking, what your hands are doing, and much more. From your dog's point of view, if you say 'sit' with your hands in your pocket, when you usually say sit with a pointed finger, then you haven't given him any command at all - and thus, no sit (another common problem would be rapid-firing your commands, have you inadvertently trained your dog that his sit command isn't 'sit', but 'sit-sit-Fido-sit-Fido-sit-sit? Believe me, he'll wait until you get it right before any touche touches the ground). So training, everyday, everywhere. If you want him to sit on a hiking trail, you have to teach him to sit on a hiking trail - your living room won't cut it.
How do you train your dog everyday? Its sounds daunting, but it's not. Make training a game, for you and your dog. Do it for 15 minutes a day. Vary what you teach and how. It won't take long before you have the best recall in the local dog park, but don't let success stop the reinforcement. Learned behaviors dissipate over time if not reinforced regularly. What method you choose to train your dog is up to you, but I recommend positive reinforcement and negative punishment. Positive reinforcement is simply giving your dog a reward for doing something good. Negative punishment is taking something good away for doing something wrong. I strongly discourage positive punishment; hitting your dog, yelling at your dog, zapping your dog, kicking your dog and so forth. If you grab your dog by the scruff of the neck for coming back to you on the third recall instead of the first, all you have done is teach him that coming back to you hurts - so he won't. Positive punishment is counter productive, even when it does work it works for the wrong reasons, and your dog will learn how to avoid punishment in more ways than by simply obeying you. If your dog only does what he's told when he's within throwing range - you already know this. Conversely, through positive reinforcement, you can literally get your dog addicted to obeying you. Again, I would refer you to a book. There are many (and I've read a lot of them). One of the best is, surprisingly enough, from the 'Idiots Guide' series called Positive Dog Training by Pamela Dennison.
At the time of this writing 30% of responds would rather not see a dog on the trail without a leash, and half of them would rather not see a dog at all. There is one overriding reason for this, negative dog encounters. Thats our fault, fellow handlers, and ours alone. Just as you can teach a dog through negative punishment, so to can you teach those with whom you share the trail. Fortunately, positive reinforcement works even better - so we can make a difference. So for all our-sakes - please educate yourselves. It only takes one persons dog biting the wrong activist to get the whole AT closed to all of our four legged friends.
And now for a little levity:
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_vh_6cZypQ_E/Srl5PDIeVkI/AAAAAAAAAMU/iLC-C7SaV_c/s512/Page_1.jpg
superman
09-24-2009, 22:29
I like to have a dog on the trail because if I bite hikers they get all huffy about it.:D
It saddens me that so many people have learned that an unleashed dog is a problem dog;
Regardless on how you feel about leashes and where they should or should not be used..over 40% of the AT (according to the link I posted earlier) require a leash. That's notcounting the places where dogs are not allowed:
Baxter State Park, Maine
Bear Mountain State Park Trailside Museum and Wildlife Center, New York—alternate road walk is available
Great Smoky Mountains National Park, Tennessee and North Carolina
So, let's say 50% of the trail that allows dogs require leashes.
Leash laws aren't optional.
An unleashed dog on parts of the trail where dogs much be leashed is a problem. :sun
warraghiyagey
09-25-2009, 07:45
It saddens me that so many people have learned that an unleashed dog is a problem dog; the reality is an unleashed and inadequately trained dog is a problem dog - and yes, that's the owners' problem, not the dog's. Too many owners use the leash as a poor substitute for training. A dog needs to be trained to behave appropriately both on the leash and off the leash. A leashed dog can have many of the same problems as an unleashed one. They can still bark, they can still bite, and they can even - if determined enough - still run. These problems, among others, can only be resolved with training.
Further, the leash can introduce a whole new set of problems. Some specific to hiking; its dangerous enough to scramble a 40 degree rock face with a 40 pound pack, infinitely more so if you're trying to hold the leash of a forty pound animal. Some are problems at large. Perhaps the biggest of which is the restriction you impose on a dog's 'vocabulary'. Dogs rarely communicate with noise - whimpering, squealing, barking, growling, snarling (as an aside; snarling and growling are not the same noise and mean entirely different things, furthermore not all barks are created equal, they can mean several different things, not all of which are 'bad'); The vast majority of a dog's communications are visual ones; they 'speak' body language. The ear position, the lip position, the head position, the tail position, the back position, the hackles and the paws, all of these are used in conjunction with one another to 'say' something about how the dog is feeling and intending to act long before the dog makes so much as a squeak. To make matters more complicated, it's not just position that communicates something, there is motion and even rate of motion as well. The leash severely restricts this language. Couple that restriction of language with the elimination of the flight half of fight-or-flight and add a dash of the owner's anxiety transmitted through a taught leash and you've just made yourself a dog who is ready to fight. They might not be snarling yet, but they may be well on the way. Ask yourself this: Is your leashed dog transmitting aggression signals to an approaching dog? Would you know if he was? Can you 'read' the approaching dog either? and no, a wagging tail is not necessarily a good thing - it depends on how it's being wagged. If your not fluent in a dogs language, you might want to pick up a book written by Dr. Stanley Coren called "How to Speak Dog". This recommendation is not just for dog owners, it would benefit anyone who is likely to encounter a dog anywhere, on the trail or otherwise.
If leashing a dog is not always the answer, then what is? Of course, not bringing your dog on a hiking trail would eliminate the rock scrambling problem for sure. It would also eliminate the standing in springs problem, the shaking water on people problem, the muddy shelter problem, the barking at hikers problem, and the chasing of wildlife problem. But your not solving any of these problems by not bringing your dog on the trail - your avoiding them, or more likely, moving them to your local park or neighborhood. There is only one answer to this; training. I don't mean puppy school for three weeks when you first bring your dog home either, I mean everyday in every situation. If your dog learns to sit when you tell him to sit at home, don't expect him to know to do it on the trail. Dogs don't generalize well. You may think your dog is responding to the word 'sit' when you say it; but he's responding to much more than that. He's responding to the way you say 'sit', how your standing when you say it, what room your in, where your looking, what your hands are doing, and much more. From your dog's point of view, if you say 'sit' with your hands in your pocket, when you usually say sit with a pointed finger, then you haven't given him any command at all - and thus, no sit (another common problem would be rapid-firing your commands, have you inadvertently trained your dog that his sit command isn't 'sit', but 'sit-sit-Fido-sit-Fido-sit-sit? Believe me, he'll wait until you get it right before any touche touches the ground). So training, everyday, everywhere. If you want him to sit on a hiking trail, you have to teach him to sit on a hiking trail - your living room won't cut it.
How do you train your dog everyday? Its sounds daunting, but it's not. Make training a game, for you and your dog. Do it for 15 minutes a day. Vary what you teach and how. It won't take long before you have the best recall in the local dog park, but don't let success stop the reinforcement. Learned behaviors dissipate over time if not reinforced regularly. What method you choose to train your dog is up to you, but I recommend positive reinforcement and negative punishment. Positive reinforcement is simply giving your dog a reward for doing something good. Negative punishment is taking something good away for doing something wrong. I strongly discourage positive punishment; hitting your dog, yelling at your dog, zapping your dog, kicking your dog and so forth. If you grab your dog by the scruff of the neck for coming back to you on the third recall instead of the first, all you have done is teach him that coming back to you hurts - so he won't. Positive punishment is counter productive, even when it does work it works for the wrong reasons, and your dog will learn how to avoid punishment in more ways than by simply obeying you. If your dog only does what he's told when he's within throwing range - you already know this. Conversely, through positive reinforcement, you can literally get your dog addicted to obeying you. Again, I would refer you to a book. There are many (and I've read a lot of them). One of the best is, surprisingly enough, from the 'Idiots Guide' series called Positive Dog Training by Pamela Dennison.
At the time of this writing 30% of responds would rather not see a dog on the trail without a leash, and half of them would rather not see a dog at all. There is one overriding reason for this, negative dog encounters. Thats our fault, fellow handlers, and ours alone. Just as you can teach a dog through negative punishment, so to can you teach those with whom you share the trail. Fortunately, positive reinforcement works even better - so we can make a difference. So for all our-sakes - please educate yourselves. It only takes one persons dog biting the wrong activist to get the whole AT closed to all of our four legged friends.
http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/snoring.jpg
http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/snoring.jpg
Nice.
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
Mags,
I'm not advocating violating leash laws. My unintentionally longwinded point was that leashes should not be used as a substitute for training. There are still 1000 miles of trail where leashes are not required - I hope it stays that way.
superman
09-25-2009, 10:00
Mags,
I'm not advocating violating leash laws. My unintentionally longwinded point was that leashes should not be used as a substitute for training. There are still 1000 miles of trail where leashes are not required - I hope it stays that way.
Yes, and at least half the shelters should be re-named as dog houses. No problem.:D
faarside
09-25-2009, 10:02
Love dogs... have dogs (and cats, goats, sheep, chickens and ducks)... but I don't hike with mine. I do not mind dogs on the trail; however, because you never know how any particular person and dog (or any animal for that matter) will react to each other when they meet, trail dogs must be kept on a leash just in case.
Therefore, my answer is somewhere in between poll response number 2 and number 3:
"A well mannered dog is as welcome as a well mannered hiker, but must be kept on a leash"
Woof!
I'm not advocating dogs in shelters either. Train train train is all I'm saying.
superman
09-25-2009, 10:28
Love dogs... have dogs (and cats, goats, sheep, chickens and ducks)... but I don't hike with mine. I do not mind dogs on the trail; however, because you never know how any particular person and dog (or any animal for that matter) will react to each other when they meet, trail dogs must be kept on a leash just in case.
Therefore, my answer is somewhere in between poll response number 2 and number 3:
"A well mannered dog is as welcome as a well mannered hiker, but must be kept on a leash"
Woof!
Those darn well mannered hikers should always be kept on a leash.:)
Mags,
I'm not advocating violating leash laws. My unintentionally longwinded point was that leashes should not be used as a substitute for training. There are still 1000 miles of trail where leashes are not required - I hope it stays that way.
..and people said that most hikers ignore said leash laws. Your unintentionally long winded point missed the point. :)
Have you read the link from the ATC by any chance?
In practice, it can be difficult to tell when you are on NPS-administered A.T. lands. We recommend dogs be leashed at all times, as a matter of courtesy to other hikers and to minimize stress to wildlife.
I'd rather pack my dog rather then a weapon. Feel safer with my dog. Also is out front of me and not at the bottom of my pack.
He stays on a leash as I would never see him again.
There I did it - opened another can of worms!
sheepdog
09-25-2009, 13:26
I'd rather pack my dog rather then a weapon. Feel safer with my dog. Also is out front of me and not at the bottom of my pack.
He stays on a leash as I would never see him again.
There I did it - opened another can of worms!
Whether you leash your dog or not you should train your dog to come when called(some dogs are more difficult than others). You may drop your leash and then the drama starts.
Ladytrekker
09-25-2009, 13:41
I'm new to the AT, and this site. I started hiking because I got a dog. I was surprised to find the dog question so controversial. I never realized how many people had negative dog encounters on the trail. All of the complaints I read seemed like they would be non-issues if handlers used common sense - evidently it's not as common as I thought. The sticky at the top of the dog forum suggests posting here if you want to discuss the issue of dogs on the trail, but I didn't find a single poll with the word 'dog' in the title. I found the 'debates' I read seemed evenly split one way or the other, but I wanted to see a poll - so I made one.
I love dogs, but I did follow alot of trail journals this year and there were too many incidents of hikers stepping in dog pooh, dogs peeing on their backpacks at the shelter areas, getting in their faces while they were trying to rest or cook their dinners. But that is not really the dogs fault it is the owner's fault. If the owner is respectful of others the dog will be too, because the owner will not let the dog be a nuisance to others. However, if someone welcomes the dog into their space or wants to play or pet the dog that is totally accepable because that is me, I always want to meet the dog.
So, the whole dog issue is in the hands of its handler.
RiverWarriorPJ
09-25-2009, 14:21
going down hill.....my pup is normally free 2 roam......up hill.....must be leashed......he has 2 pull me up there...lol..
Have you read the link from the ATC by any chance?
Yes - long before I ever brought a dog on the trail.
Well, admitting this isn't going to make me popular, but I voted for #4 (Never, ever ever ever! Unless I'm lost and its search and rescue.).
I don't like dogs. Let me rephrase that; I don't like pets. I don't really like the concept of pets. I'll never have one myself. But thats a whole different conversation.
Besides this personal opinion about pets, my experience has been that for every "well behaved" dog I encounter on the trail I run across 5 that are just not trained. I agree that you can't blame a dog for its behavior. But to me that indicates that most owners can't keep their dogs under control and - in my opinion - shouldn't be allowed on the trail. Even the "well behaved" ones.
I know I'm not going to change anybody's mind here, so if you do bring you dog on the trail please do 2 things; keep them off me and pick up after them.
RiverWarriorPJ
09-26-2009, 07:51
(Never, ever ever ever! Unless I'm lost and its search and rescue.)....
only wants dogs when they can help him....??..
in my opinion - shouldn't be allowed on the trail. Even the "well behaved" ones.
looking foward 2 meetin' u on the trail pal....& i only use the word PAL when..??..
so if you do bring you dog on the trail please do 2 things; keep them off me and pick up after them.
where's ur crap pal....in ur backpack..??..
superman
09-26-2009, 09:19
where's ur crap pal....in ur backpack..??..
Apparently he didn't read the fine print on the back of his rosery beads...next to where it says "made in China." It says "anyone who doesn't like dogs goes to hell.":)
cowboy nichols
09-26-2009, 10:43
This person is sick and needs our synpathy. Both my dogs agree he is in sad shape.
superman
09-26-2009, 10:49
This person is sick and needs our synpathy. Both my dogs agree he is in sad shape.
Yup, what he needs is a friendly dog to jump up in his lap and lick his face.:)
RiverWarriorPJ
09-26-2009, 10:50
..SuperMan & Cowboy......DiTTo and Thnx....
where's ur crap pal....in ur backpack..??..
No, its buried at least 6" (and away from camping sites & water sources), unlike most of the dog crap that just gets left where dog drops it.
And as for meeting some "friendly" dogs, I've met plenty of them. But apparently (as I knew was going to be said...) if I don't like dogs I'm either a sad, evil person or just haven't met the "right" dog. It just isn't possible not to like your dog, which is THE cutest and most well behaved dog in the world... :rolleyes: