Trail Manners [Archive]

Lostone

10-07-2009, 22:09

warraghiyagey

10-07-2009, 22:11

I know the answer to every question about trail hiking and just about everyone goes through me before making any decisions so, fire away. . . :)

Blissful

10-07-2009, 22:23

Basically you can camp where you want unless there are restrictions for that state (like CT and some areas in PA, etc) or NPS / state parks (like the national parks, DWG, etc). In bad weather I have camped literally a foot off the trail.

As for the shelter thingie - huge thread on this, do a search for it and get loads of opinions.

saimyoji

10-07-2009, 22:45

I know the answer to every question about trail hiking and just about everyone goes through me before making any decisions so, fire away. . . :)

dude...he asked like 4 or 5 questions and you didn't answer even one of them.....:rolleyes:

warraghiyagey

10-08-2009, 00:26

dude...he asked like 4 or 5 questions and you didn't answer even one of them.....:rolleyes:
Sweet!!! A new record. . . . :sun:sun:sun

Jonnycat

10-08-2009, 00:52

ROFL!

As to how far off the trail, at least out of sight of any trail or lake (if someone might be hiking by the lake, anyway) is a nice thing to do. I think it's like 100 feet, but in any case the general idea is to allow people who seek solitude the feeling of solitude instead of feeling like they're in a wooded parking lot.

That's the idea, anyway, but of course it is often overlooked by many people. I think it's a good concept, myself, but you know sometimes at the end of a long wet and cold day you're too tired and miserable to do anything but just flop down and crash, so it can be understandable at times.

chiefduffy

10-08-2009, 02:54

So when tent camping away from a shelter, do you look for an existing site with an existing spot used for a fire?

Is it proper to tent camp around the shelter?

Campsite selection, How near or far off the trail?

So are shelters really that bad?

There are existing sites with a fire ring in lots of areas, especially the south, but not always. I rarely have a fire when I camp away from the shelter.

It is almost always proper to tent camp around the shelter.

In really bad weather, near the trail is usually ok (as stated above).

Shelters are fun, lots of conversation, laughter, etc. I rarely sleep in one, tho.

- Duffy

harryfred

10-08-2009, 02:56

Hi Lostone. I was in your shoes about a year and a half ago. I've knocked out WVA, Md, and most of PA. My answers to your questions are

There have been a lot of existing campsites along the trail so far and I prefer to use these if I camp away from a shelter as in my opinion this does the least environmental damage. I also use designated campsites because I like picnic tables, tent pads and ready water sources.

Most shelters have tent site close to the shelter This works well for over flow or people that like the conveniences of the shelter but prefer their own tent.

I have met people who insist they have to get well out of site of the trail to pitch a tent I have also stepped over through hikers cowboying right on the trail. ( I'm a early riser).

Shelters are shelters figure you are sleeping on a floor with a bunch of strangers that snore, fart and may roll on top of you. Their main advantage is they are dryer and you do not have to deal with your tent. I like shelters mainly for those two reasons. Your tent is warmer, more bug free, and private. Staying at a shelter also means usually a privy (no cat holes) a reasonably close water hole, picnic table and a fire ring, weather you sleep in the shelter or tent close by.

I hope this helps you

Lostone

10-08-2009, 08:21

thanks for all the replies.

I will be hiking with my son, so we will probably be tenting. Is there a source listing campsite locations, I would prefer to use existing than creating a new one.

Roots

10-08-2009, 09:05

The best thing you could do to find out about camping spots would be purchase a handbook. There are a few out there. Appalachian Pages and A Thru Hiker Handbook are a couple of good ones. They'll tell what you need to know.

The Weasel

10-08-2009, 11:22

Sooooo,

In prep for sectioning the trail I was wondering if there was a source for trail etiquette. I have been lurking for about a year and I am confused by a lot of posts.

My experience has been mostly 2 or 3 night trips to local trails. They are not utilized all that much so I have used the designated campsite's pretty much by myself. They have hand pump wells and established fire rings. Some even have privys.

So when tent camping away from a shelter, do you look for an existing site with an existing spot used for a fire?

Is it proper to tent camp around the shelter?

Campsite selection, How near or far off the trail?

So are shelters really that bad?

I am new please be gentle.

Lost:

All good questions. No one "right" answer to most of them.

(1) "Etiquette" has no unique source for backpacking. The Golden Rule probably is as good as you'll find. There are some customs and encouraged practices, though. High among these is "LNT" or "Leave No Trace". That's a specific concept, with its own organization. You might want to visit their website. It's not a set of "rule" you are bound to, but practices that are encouraged. Some of them speak to your questions.

(2) If you want a fire by your campsite - it can be more pleasant sometimes without one - it is often encouraged to use a site with an existing firepit. This often (not always) means that the ground has been cleared down to mineral soil to minimize the risk of a fire spreading, and it minimizes the damage to the environment that happens with everyone having their own fire area. Make sure you check to see if fire permits are required (they are in California, even for backpacking stoves, in most National Forests).

(3) Usually you can tent by a shelter, although some parks (GSMNP for instance) prohibit it for almost everyone.

(4) Campsites are recommended to be 100' or more off-trail. That is also a safety thing for campers.

(5) Shelters are anywhere from wonderful to "that bad." It's not so much the shelter condition as who frequents it. If you're 20 miles from the nearest trailhead, and it's a slow season, you'll probably love it. If it's a half mile from a road that has several beer stores along it, you may hate it. There are minor irritants in shelters (such as mice and people who snore) and pleasures (meeting new friends and having a place to sit). It's best to have the gear to sleep elsewhere and then decide when you come to one.

Good luck.

TW

ChimneySpring

10-08-2009, 11:49

Lost:

(2) If you want a fire by your campsite - it can be more pleasant sometimes without one - it is often encouraged to use a site with an existing firepit. This often (not always) means that the ground has been cleared down to mineral soil to minimize the risk of a fire spreading, and it minimizes the damage to the environment that happens with everyone having their own fire area.
TW

Wish someone would post this on a sign near Sam Moore Shelter in VA. I think they are up to 3 additional, littered, and poorly constructed firepits besides the primary one.

ShelterLeopard

10-08-2009, 12:06

Sooooo,

So when tent camping away from a shelter, do you look for an existing site with an existing spot used for a fire?

Is it proper to tent camp around the shelter?

Campsite selection, How near or far off the trail?

So are shelters really that bad?

I am new please be gentle.

I haven't read the other responses yet, so sorry if I repeat anything.
When I tent camp instead of sleep in a shelter, I usually do not camp near a shelter on an existing tent spot (maybe if I'm expecting heavy rain I will, but usually I like to get away from people when I tent camp, so I go far away from shelters). I'll sometimes camp on a spot along the trail that someone else used to tent, especially if I want to make a fire. But if I'm just setting up my stove, I might camp anywhere. The thing to remember if you camp anywhere, is that the next morning, you have to make it look like no one slept there- cover the tent spot with leaves, leave no trace, etc...

Never build a new fire ring. If you want to make a campfire, it really should be in an existing fire ring. Building a new fire ring destroys the area on which you build it. (I don't really, really, mind new fire rings, but it is hiker "protocal", and it feels less like the wilderness if there's a fire ring every twenty feet.)

It is proper to camp near a shelter, everyone does it, there are usually many tent spots, etc...

Campsite selection, in my opinion, about twenty feet off trail is good.

Shelters are NOT that bad. They get a bad rep sometimes, but I like 'em. (Well, even I'll admit, there are a couple shelters along the trail that ought to be condemned, but most are really nice and keep you dry and comfortable.) You have to keep in mind that if you sleep in a shelter, you may want to bring ear plugs. People snore, set alarms for 5 am (why???), wake up and clatter around, come in really late at night and bang around making food, and some people even sit in the middle of shelters and make cell phone calls or smoke, which is really annoying. But, this doesn't always happen. Make sure you don't do those annoying things though. Bring earplugs and all will be well. Good luck!

ShelterLeopard

10-08-2009, 12:24

PS- I didn't mean 20', I meant 50' off trail. But a couple people here wrote 100', which is probably an accepted figure. But I'm usually 50' off trail (or out of sight of the trail), I usually try to stay out of sight, personally. It's quieter that way.

Many Walks

10-08-2009, 14:55

I'll add, you'll see lots of campsites near road access, but avoid those no matter how tempting as you could easily get visitors during the night that take great pleasure in harassing sleepy hikers.

saimyoji

10-08-2009, 14:59

note that in PA on state gamelands at least you must be at least 500' from any water source.

though i'm sure Shades of Gray will chime in and correct me. :)

Slo-go'en

10-08-2009, 17:36

Nearly every shelter on the AT has tenting areas associated with it. Many times, these are "improved", designated sites. These should be your first choice for tenting.

"Trail side" tenting spots, many of which are listed in the various thru-hiker guides, are generally far from water - or too close to it - and should not be used except for emergency. Like, I just can't go one step farther because it's getting dark, I'm hungry and tired. If there is a fire ring there, most likely it isn't built to regulation standards and should not be used. In fact, it should be dismantled to discourage others from using it.

All the "LNT" literature I've seen says 200 feet from the trail. But you start wandering 200 feet off the trail trying to find a suitably level and open spot to tent, chances are good your going to get lost and may never find the trail again!

Jonnycat

10-08-2009, 19:19

All the "LNT" literature I've seen says 200 feet from the trail. But you start wandering 200 feet off the trail trying to find a suitably level and open spot to tent, chances are good your going to get lost and may never find the trail again!

That's what the compass is for. ;)

Pacific Tortuga

10-08-2009, 19:25

I know the answer to every question about trail hiking and just about everyone goes through me before making any decisions so, fire away. . . :)

He's so full of himself and acts like his crap doesn't stink. To bad his flatulation gives him away. :)

RiverWarriorPJ

10-08-2009, 19:33

I know the answer to every question about trail hiking and just about everyone goes through me before making any decisions so, fire away. . . :)
....oh geeeeez.....a break please.....

emerald

10-08-2009, 19:35

note that in PA on state gamelands at least you must be at least 500' from any water source.

though i'm sure Shades of Gray will chime in and correct me. :)

He doesn't post to A.T. forums, but you are correct with what you posted. You should have added camping is not permitted within 500 feet of public access areas and the spring and fall campfire prohibitions on State Forests.

There are many other points to be made related to specific locations in Pennsylvania. Bring your map, a handbook and when in doubt ask.

The short answer to the question is what's permitted varies from place to place. LNT calls for informing yourself and respecting regulations and guidelines.

Many Walks

10-08-2009, 19:39

Compass is good, but 200 feet isn't that far. Just head up the hill to find a campsite and in the AM head back down and you'll hit the trail. If you turned right to go up the hill, turn right in the morning when you hit the trail again. You'll be on your way, no problem! Easy way to remember the direction with shelters too. Right in, right out. Left in, left out.

emerald

10-08-2009, 19:40

All the "LNT" literature I've seen says 200 feet from the trail.

On Pennsylvania State Game Lands A.T. hikers are required by law to camp within 200 feet of the AT and can camp right in the middle of it, legally, if they so choose. Regulations trump LNT, but it would be considerate of other hikers to camp out of sight of the A.T.

The forest understory is thick here in most places often with mountain laurel, azaleas or other shrubs. Satisfying both PGC regulations and LNT guidelines is not difficult and results in a better experience for everyone.

saimyoji

10-08-2009, 19:40

You should have added....

knew i could count on you. thanks. why did you change your name from shades of gray anyways? :-?

saimyoji

10-08-2009, 19:41

On Pennsylvania State Game Lands AT hikers are required by law to camp within 200 feet of the AT and can camp right in the middle of it if they so choose.

which i attest to having done before. :p

Lone Wolf

10-08-2009, 19:43

knew i could count on you. thanks. why did you change your name from shades of gray anyways? :-?

yeah Shades. and what's with Pa.'s green diamond? i google it and it's a tire joint :-?

Lone Wolf

10-08-2009, 19:44

yeah Shades. and what's with Pa.'s green diamond? i google it and it's a tire joint :-?

http://www.greendiamondtire.com/dealerlocator.html

Blissful

10-08-2009, 19:50

Maybe because Berks county looks like a diamond - (is this a trivia test? Did I win?)
:)
BTW LW - you didn't have the pig flu, did you? I know you were sick. Big hoopla here about it all.

emerald

10-08-2009, 19:54

Maybe Wolf needs to turn on avatars. Berks is Pennsylvania's Green Diamond and green symbolizes growth. We have many kinds of growth here, some more desirable than others.

Emerald is a hard, but brittle, bright green gemstone also known as the green diamond. Berks is where emerald was born, lives, works and what he posts about primarily.

I gave him his screen name. He thought himself not worthy of such a name, but I insisted he accept it and post as someone so named should.

Carborundum is used to make whetstones to sharpen knives. Emerald would sharpen some minds here if he could.

Shades of Gray

ShelterLeopard

10-08-2009, 23:07

I know the answer to every question about trail hiking and just about everyone goes through me before making any decisions so, fire away. . . :)

How many hikers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

emerald

10-09-2009, 11:30

It depends upon how many are trying to unscrew it.

ShelterLeopard

10-09-2009, 12:22

Ouch.......

dreamsoftrails

10-09-2009, 12:33

Sooooo,

In prep for sectioning the trail I was wondering if there was a source for trail etiquette. I have been lurking for about a year and I am confused by a lot of posts.
the best source is common sense. just respect others and if you think they have a problem with you, just ask. same with others you have a problem with.

So when tent camping away from a shelter, do you look for an existing site with an existing spot used for a fire?
this is a good approach, and you will find the nicer campsites, with either views or access to water, have a 'pre-existing' feel. these spots are fine.

i would not feel confined to this approach, just know that if you camp in an unused spot just treat it with a little more respect. you can still build a fire, just keep it small and on top of some flat rocks you find. LNT.

Is it proper to tent camp around the shelter?
perfectly find and very common. many of the shelters have obvious tent spots, it is not uncommon for many to camp around the shelter and either none or a few use the shelter to sleep in. they are conveinent for tables, covered tables, water, privy.

Campsite selection, How near or far off the trail? doesn't matter, so long as its in any manner not blocking the trail or damaging a special area.

So are shelters really that bad?

I am new please be gentle.
depends on the shelter and what you are expecting out of them or your hike in general.

some are dirty, some are small, some are aging, some have mice, they all are hard floored and potentially uncomfortable to sleep one, they all will typically be crowded and used nightly during thru hiker season, peace and quiet will take the back seat, etc.

however, this may not outweigh the friendships, collective work on a fire, collective sharing of whiskey, etc...

just a matter of what you are looking for on your trip.

emerald

10-09-2009, 12:43

What was posted by dot while no doubt well-intended is not universally accepted procedure on the A.T. and he is not sufficiently well-read or travelled to be advising people.

Case in point: On Hamburg's watershed, evidence of campsites and campfires will be observed, neither of which are permitted, nor are they to be viewed as an invitation or indication these activities are acceptable.

Hamburg owns their watershed and the A.T. crosses it at the borough's pleasure. They set the terms of use, not hikers who are obliged to inform themselves of the terms and comply with them.

Tin Man

10-09-2009, 12:53

The National Park Service suggests camping 100 feet from trail and 200 feet from water sources. Other parks along the way have their own rules. You can read more rules and regs here...

http://www.appalachiantrail.org/site/c.mqLTIYOwGlF/b.4805493/k.749B/Regulations_and_Permits.htm

As far as trail manners goes...

1) Stay to the right side of the trail to avoid head on collisions.

2) Remember right foot left foot repeat and you will get wherever you are going. Bring a camera to remember where you have been.

3) Be sure to signal when you are about to pour a libation.

ShelterLeopard

10-09-2009, 12:57

I'd have to agree with Emerald on that one- while it may feel nice to build your own fire and fire pit, you really shouldn't. I've noticed on the trail SoBo out of DWG that more and more fire rings appear every year, and people never both to take them down, and it destroys the area directly underneath (and it seems that they're all very close together- why build one when there's another so nearby?). Seeing all these firerings is like seeing developments- it takes the wild out of wilderness.

ShelterLeopard

10-09-2009, 12:59

Wait, TinMan, isn't it left foot right? :D

Actually, I normally refer to Monty Python for different methods of hiking. My current way if left lfet, slide right, left right, right, hop left.

emerald

10-09-2009, 13:01

There are places where campfires are permitted and places where they are not. In some of the former locations, less would be preferable, but that's where we venture into the realm of opinion and LNT can serve as a guide.

Tin Man

10-09-2009, 13:15

Wait, TinMan, isn't it left foot right? :D

Actually, I normally refer to Monty Python for different methods of hiking. My current way if left lfet, slide right, left right, right, hop left.

variations are permitted as long as you coordinate with your hiking partner... and your clothes

my personal variation is right, left, trip, fall down, wince, get up, repeat while hiking partner coordinates digs and laughter

Tin Man

10-09-2009, 13:16

emerald

10-09-2009, 13:25

I know what you have pointed out to be so and thank you for pointing it out. What bothers me is some hikers believing they aren't under any obligation to read, learn and apply what they've learned or they conclude the consequences of their actions are not their problem, which is often true. Without consequences, there is little to encourage them to act otherwise.

Tin Man

10-09-2009, 13:32

I know what you have pointed out to be so and I thank you for pointing out it out. What bothers me is some don't believe they are under any obligation to read, learn and apply what they have learned and the consequences are not their problem.

some rules are not strictly followed and supposed 'consequences' have not really had an impact in most areas along the trail

some folks also interpret rules much stricter than intended, which has the consequence of alienating people and makes some less likely to even attempt to follow the rules

emerald

10-09-2009, 13:37

Our dialogue is moving increasingly into the realm of opinion and philosophy. I concede there may be some truth in what you claim, but I am beginning to wonder when we can expect to see your data and what form it may take?

I am concerned about this notion of tolerance we see here in various forms particularly as it relates to respecting regulations, rules, etc. and posting in a manner which might be seen as indicating people here and on the A.T. find others doing as they please acceptable. Some seem to equate doing as they please with freedom which they believe to be some sort of inviolable right.

Tin Man

10-09-2009, 13:40

Our dialogue is moving increasingly into the realm of opinion. I concede there may be some truth in what you claim, but I am beginning to wonder when we can expect to see your data and what form it may take?

not going there myself... been there done that and there are no winners, only whinners

emerald

10-09-2009, 13:52

I've gone about as far today as I wish with it too. We have gotten to the point where the bullying usually begins and predictibly you invoked what seems to be some form of the word whining.

I am more interested in providing food for thought than fodder for argument.

sbhikes

10-09-2009, 14:25

Whinning? Is that a noise horses make?

Mags

10-09-2009, 14:29

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_PZPpWTRTU

emerald

10-09-2009, 15:05

Whinning? Is that a noise horses make?

Sometimes horses are seen and heard whinnying. I figure Tin Man was administering a spelling test or maybe he was describing the sound generated by someone of mixed parentage when whining.:D

randyg45

10-09-2009, 15:42

That's what the compass is for. ;)

Yes indeed. Also the concepts of "uphill" and "downhill". Maps, anyone?:welcome

Tin Man

10-09-2009, 16:25

whining about whinning... oi

sbhikes

10-09-2009, 16:31

Tin Man

10-09-2009, 16:41

I prefer wine.

And to answer one of the questions, I prefer to camp in a place where someone else has camped because then I'm not adding more trampled down places to the world. However, I will seek out fresh places to camp if evidence of human waste is in the area. Nothing bugs me more than seeing used toilet paper strewn about in an otherwise nice place to camp.

agreed - red wine is best - heart healthy and all

it ain't hard to camp without trampling down stuff, then fluff the leaves after you pack up to make it all pretty for the deer and such

Chicken Feathers

10-09-2009, 17:03

Everyone has given their opinion of tent camping and the such. What about pooting while in a shelter or on the trail. Should one let it out slow and blame the smell on a bear or should you just let it all out and then laugh?:-? What about burping should you just push it real hard back down so it becomes a fart or what.

saimyoji

10-09-2009, 17:09

just let it rip. if enough of you are in for it, fart baseball is always an option.

mudhead

10-09-2009, 17:13

What about burping should you just push it real hard back down so it becomes a fart or what.

Be careful. Might come out your ear.

emerald

10-09-2009, 17:47

Everyone has given their opinion of tent camping and such.

Actually, there were some indisputable facts mixed in there too, but the topic has been pretty much covered.

ShelterLeopard

10-12-2009, 12:00

Wait, no fires at all in NJ? I though it was just no fires allowed in Worthington State park (granted, Worthington takes up the majority of the NJ AT) So it is indeed no fires in NJ?

Tin Man

10-12-2009, 12:05

Wait, no fires at all in NJ? I though it was just no fires allowed in Worthington State park (granted, Worthington takes up the majority of the NJ AT) So it is indeed no fires in NJ?

The handbook states no fires along the AT corridor in NJ... there is plenty of evidence this rule is ignored

jersey joe

10-12-2009, 12:28

Wait, no fires at all in NJ? I though it was just no fires allowed in Worthington State park (granted, Worthington takes up the majority of the NJ AT) So it is indeed no fires in NJ?
Actually Worthington State Forest is only about 8 miles of the 72+ miles in NJ. There is no CAMPING in Worthington State Forest except for at the backpacker campsite just south of Sunfish Pond. Ground fires are NOT permitted anywhere in NJ along the AT, stoves are permitted. I confirmed this three weeks ago with three rangers at the DWG.

More info here: http://www.nps.gov/dewa/planyourvisit/upload/sb2at.pdf

ShelterLeopard

10-12-2009, 12:39

Funny, the New Jersey AT confuses me... Well, no fires then. Thanks! (Seriously, I always forget everything about the New Jersey AT- even though I live in Jersey, I've never hiked part of the NJ AT. Hiked plenty of other places. Isn't that sad? Well, that'll all change on my thru!)

Don H

10-12-2009, 15:25

Another piece of trail etiquette; hiker going uphill has the right of way. Here's a good site to check out for more info.

http://www.hikingdude.com/hiking-etiquette.shtml

Erin

10-12-2009, 23:21

Hi Lostone,
I have been in your section hike shoes on the AT.
1. Tent near a shelter if you want. The water source seems to be near a shelter. You will meet alot of nice hikers who do shelter. We cooked at the shelter picnic table to socialize.
2. We tented one night where there was no shelter. Off the trail. This was OK in the area we were in. Leave no trace. No fire. Some places are strict on off the trail "stealth" camping. Some do,we were new and wanted to follow the rules.
3. Check back here on gear and menu suggestions. There are alot of nice folks on this site that want to encourage new hikers. Everyone we met our our AT section hike was helpful and encouraging. Thru hikers even went thu our gear at Hot Spings and had us drop unnecessary stuff and we thought we were pretty experienced hikers. But we are winter hikers here. They knew the weather for the week and the terrain and gave us so much help,. I would have carried way too much cold weather gear for the week that ended up being hot and hotter had it not been for thur hikers and a botttle of wine at Elmer's.
Have a great time!