View Full Version : alcohol vs. cannister
jbrecon2
10-11-2009, 11:12
I just bought a 12 dollar alcohol stove online to check it out. Works well and i'm pretty happy with it. However, I'm wondering about the weight incentives everyone speaks about. While the stove itself with windscreen and pot stand is under 3 ounces, you have to carry a water bottle full of fuel (that is what everyone suggests) Where is the weight advantage???
You've got to carry fuel with a canister stove, too. :p You don't have to take a huge 32oz Nalgene full of denatured. I have a few different sized bottles so that I can carry the amount of alcohol I'll need for however many hot meals I'll be making. For an overnighter, I usually carry 3-4 oz. just to be on the safe side. Depending on the efficiency of your setup, plan on about an ounce of denatured per meal. But do your testing before you go so you don't get left having to eat cold Pop-Tarts when you'd rather have something hot.
I second what Hooch said. Most any plastic bottle will carry the alcohol, so there is a wide range of sizes you can use. Generally, for a typical 4 or 5 day resupply schedule, I carry 12 to 16 oz of fuel depending on weather and how much coffee I think I'll want in addition to dinners. I have never come close to running out, so obviously my practice is overkill.
The disadvantage with canisters, is that you can start with all full canisters each trip and end up with a bunch of partials at home, or you can use the partials and have to carry extra on your trip since it's tough to judge exactly how much fuel is left in them.
Take my comment with consideration given to how much you paid for it. I do not use canister stoves for the reason above, but others swear by them. Always personal preference.
My vote is alcohol except in winter, then it's my SVEA. I do miss the comforting roar of my dinner cooking when using the alcohol.
garlic08
10-11-2009, 11:41
Ditto what has been said above. I heard somewhere that if you carry more than 10 or 12 oz of alcohol, you no longer have a weight advantage over white gas, for instance. Alcohol stoves are really best for one fast meal a day with frequent resupplies. If you're wanting to simmer, cook breakfast after hot coffee, melt snow, or carry fuel for weeks and weeks, the weight advantage of alcohol goes away.
A few idea for different sized bottles to hold denatured alcohol:
12oz Sprite bottles:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3597/3347001215_8c14b01d5d.jpg?v=0
10 oz juice bottle:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PDxdHmdBL._SL500_AA280_.jpg
8 oz water bottle:
http://blog.bottleyourbrand.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/6/files/well-known-clients/promotional-bottled-water-1.jpg
6oz medicine bottle (ask your neighborhood pharmacist real nice, you might get it for free):
http://www.hemkund.ca/%5Cdata%5C6%20oz.jpg
Or a 4 oz drop dispensing bottle:
http://www.nalgene-outdoor.com/store/images/689600-0580S.jpg
Plenty of silmilar type bottles available in your local grocery store, convenience store, outfitter, etc. Waht you carry denatured in is limited only by your imagination.
Hooch and Lyle make good points. I carried a 15 oz Tropicana OJ bottle full of fuel and always had enough until the next re-supply. Denatured is readily available so you can always carry a little less without fear.
I think another factor here is how long your trips tend to be, and how and how much you tend to cook. For a person that likes to cook (or at least heat water) two or even three times a day, indeed the advantage of the alcohol stove goes down because it's a less efficient fuel. If you just heat water for dinner for yourself, you might use an ounce or perhaps a bit less per day.
I just bought a 12 dollar alcohol stove online to check it out. Works well and i'm pretty happy with it. However, I'm wondering about the weight incentives everyone speaks about. While the stove itself with windscreen and pot stand is under 3 ounces, you have to carry a water bottle full of fuel (that is what everyone suggests) Where is the weight advantage???
There have been quite a few threads on WB comparing different types of stoves and how hikers use them efficiently. I suggest you look for them. Some UL gearhead hikers border on being obsessive about stove efficiency which equates to squeezing out the last few ozs. from their hiking kits. These are probably the ones you will want to listen closely to.
I fully understand that saving an oz or two here and there add up, but since you sound like you are relatively new to the UL scene may I suggest that you most closely examine the largest or what tend to be the most heaviest pieces of gear first to save wt., like pack, sleep system, and shelter. Then moving on in your wt. saving ways by examining your clothing, including shoes, and food. To me, it doesn't make much sense by saving 2 oz on your stove or 2-3 oz on the amount of fuel you carry when there are most likely other areas in your hiking kit where you could more easily save greater wt first, even if those wt. savings mean you have to part with some doremi. It makes no sense to me, when I hear UL hikers go on and on about the efficiency and wt. of their stoves when I see them finishing hikes with excessive uneaten food that weighs far in excess of those wt. savings on a stove or fuel. The same goes true for other pieces of gear.
But, since I may be wrong about you being new to wt saving ideas, or some simply like to save wt on many different pieces all at the same time, or you may not be in a position to purchase or want to make lighter wt. gear, or you are just planning for the future I'll add a bit to the already excellent posts. The greatest wt saving incentives you hear about from alchy stoves comes from those who have a solid understanding of how they eat on the trail, like how often they cook, what they tend to cook(do they just need to boil water), when they hike(alchy stoves tend to not work the most efficiently when the weather is very cold), how hot do they like to eat their food(alcohol doesn't tend to burn very hot, but alcohol isn't the only type of fuel that can be used in all types of so called alchy stoves), how often one resupplies, etc. and how to use their stoves efficiently. These considerations, as well as some others, enable those obsessive wt conscious hikers to carry some extremely light wt. efficient homemade alchy stoves and dial in just how much fuel to carry, maybe with carrying a little extra, in various sized light wt containers to suit their exact needs, to save wt. For comparison sake consider that an isobutane stove is typically, but not always a bit heavier, than the smallest lightest wt alchy stoves, and the smallest amount of isobutane fuel that I know of that is available is 4 oz, and that's just the wt of the isobutane, not the wt of the can that's holding the isobutane. Some of the other things that are tied into the wt saving idea of an alchy stove include; the desire to buy something inexpensive with fewer working parts that can fail(although I have used the same Snow Peak Giga stove for 1000's of trail miles w/ no failure issues), the satisfaction of making something yourself for virtually no cost(an empty tuna or cat food can) other than your time, the ready availability of fuel or the ability of a stove to use several different types of fuel, and the compact nature of some extremely small alchy stoves.
The choice of choosing to employ an alchy stove isn't always done with wt saving as the only goal. It's often looked at with many considerations that come in a package. So you see there are a lot of if's, ands, and buts and a whole lot of considerations and understanding to saving wt. when it comes to alchy stoves and, IMO, in the end the wt. savings aren't all that grand. That's why I would recommend to someone newly jumping on the wt. saving merry-go-round to most closely examine the gear where the most wt can typically be saved while continuing on to gain a full understanding of their eating, cooking, and hiking habits so that somewhere down the road they can best be able to squeeze out those last couple of ozs in the stove dept.
Kerosene
10-11-2009, 17:06
I concur with the comments above.
I'm a long-time canister user (Snow Peak GigaPower Ti), but anymore I rarely do anything beyond boil water for one. I bought one of Zelph's original StarLyte alchohol stoves, which I use for shorter trips where I can minimize fuel. The breakeven point, where weight is comparable for my alky setup vs. the canister, is about 10 pints of water. So, my StarLyte comes along for trips of less than 5 days, and my canister for trips of up to 10 days (where I need to carefully ration my fuel usage).
If I was thru-hiking, I'd probably go with an alcohol stove full-time, as it's generally easier to find denatured alcohol (sometimes even by the ounce).
Ladytrekker
10-11-2009, 18:52
I tried out my alcohol stove this weekend, it lit really fast burned very hot and boiled quickly. I could not see the flame and was trying to see if it was lit, it gets hot fast. My friend has the Jetboil and took forever to boil water. I was eating my oatmeal by the time hers boiled. I have to get something to handle the pot, I use a fosters beer can cut in half and it is hot to handle.
.......I have to get something to handle the pot, I use a fosters beer can cut in half and it is hot to handle.Depending on the stove, I have either a Foster's can pot or a custom made "reverse" Heineken can pot. I handle both with either a glove or a bandana.
jbrecon2
10-11-2009, 20:58
i will only be boiling water, and my intention is a thru hike in 2010. Im just wondering if there really is a weight advantage with the weight of the fuel for alcohol. Also, I understand it is easy to find fuel, but doesnt that mean i'll be buying a large container for 7-8 bucks and only using 16 ounces of it as i will not be carrying the full aluminum container of fuel? Just wondering, becasue the pocket rocket is on sale for 30 bucks at REI but so many have suggested to alcohol stove.
i will only be boiling water, and my intention is a thru hike in 2010. Im just wondering if there really is a weight advantage with the weight of the fuel for alcohol. Also, I understand it is easy to find fuel, but doesnt that mean i'll be buying a large container for 7-8 bucks and only using 16 ounces of it as i will not be carrying the full aluminum container of fuel? Just wondering, becasue the pocket rocket is on sale for 30 bucks at REI but so many have suggested to alcohol stove.There are tons of places in town, especially outfitters and hostels, where you can buy denatured alcohol by the ounce. This will keep you from having to buy an entire container of denatured and having to waste what you don't use.
jbrecon2
10-11-2009, 21:09
oh ok now it makes sense. thanks!!
MikenSalem
10-11-2009, 21:56
The disadvantage with canisters, is that you can start with all full canisters each trip and end up with a bunch of partials at home, or you can use the partials and have to carry extra on your trip since it's tough to judge exactly how much fuel is left in them.
If you weigh your fuel canisters before and after use, you get a handle on how long they last and can use up the "open" cans. Just write the weight on them with a sharpie and you'll know how much is left.
I like my Alcohol stoves in the warmer months on shorter trips. I did get an Outback Oven which requires a canister stove and am going to see how that goes. Overall if my pack goes over 33# the fun stops.
harryfred
10-11-2009, 22:42
I use home made alky stoves. my favorites are the "Pepsi can" stoves I find they are the cheapest, lightest and easiest to make. I roughed one out at a church picnic, showing off, with a SAK out of a Coke can using the top of a sock for a wick. It worked fine. I carry a 10oz. juice bottle of fuel for a 5 day 4 night trip. 3 caps in the morning makes 1pint of coffee and 4 caps in the evening makes a Knorr's noodle/rice side dish with additives.
I don't take a postal scale on the trail with me but I can safely say that my set up( with wind screen) weighs significantly less than any canister stove set up I have run across, and during warm months boils water just as quick or close enough.Note that I don't cook. I boil water throw something in it let it boil a bit and sit to finish off. If I make a stove with a simmer ring it weighs more takes longer to make and is not worth it to me. I like the fact that as I go my pack gets lighter. Percentage wise my fuel weighs less than my container than cannister fuel. I hike out with a empty plastic bottle rather than an empty metal canister.
All that said I want to get a cannister stove for the colder months I hike. When it is colder below, 40 deg., You use more fuel to get a boil and food cools faster so it is harder to "let it sit to finish off" and still eat hot food. I also like a hot breakfast rather than a few fruit bars on the run, and a little more coffee maybe some hot coco. I like to stop mid day for some cup-o-soup and I like more food in the evening. All this means a lot more fuel and the weight advantage goes away quick. Note if I ever get the gear together for the below 20 deg. days I'm going for white gas. and a lot more weight.
Just my two cents.
take-a-knee
10-12-2009, 09:14
I tried out my alcohol stove this weekend, it lit really fast burned very hot and boiled quickly. I could not see the flame and was trying to see if it was lit, it gets hot fast. My friend has the Jetboil and took forever to boil water. I was eating my oatmeal by the time hers boiled. I have to get something to handle the pot, I use a fosters beer can cut in half and it is hot to handle.
Tinny at Minibull Design sells a length of flameproof wick that you can wrap around your pot. It stays cool enough to handle.
I just bought a 12 dollar alcohol stove online to check it out. Works well and i'm pretty happy with it. However, I'm wondering about the weight incentives everyone speaks about. While the stove itself with windscreen and pot stand is under 3 ounces, you have to carry a water bottle full of fuel (that is what everyone suggests) Where is the weight advantage???
I use a plastic Smirnoff Vodka bottle a pint is good for 7 days + for me, the flatened shape of the bottle seems to take up less space and the red top works as a half once measure.
I've decided to try out a canister. Already mentioned was that the Pocket Rocket was on sale at REI, which it is.
I elected to go with a Coleman F1 Ultralite. Great reviews and more heat output. It is also on sale at Amazon. I'm a "Prime" member, so free two-day shipping.
http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-F1-Ultralight-Stove/dp/B002LBC1EY
bigcranky
10-12-2009, 10:46
Drat, I just paid $40 plus shipping from Campmor. Oh well.
Also, I understand it is easy to find fuel, but doesnt that mean i'll be buying a large container for 7-8 bucks and only using 16 ounces of it as i will not be carrying the full aluminum container of fuel? Just wondering, becasue the pocket rocket is on sale for 30 bucks at REI but so many have suggested to alcohol stove.
No, just buy a yellow bottle of Heet. A 12 oz bottle will cost you about $1.29.
Don't waste your money at REI.
Jonnycat
10-12-2009, 13:43
No, just buy a yellow bottle of Heet. A 12 oz bottle will cost you about $1.29.
And that is one of the best parts about the alky stove - cheap fuel that is available anywhere there is a gas station/walmart/hardware store.
"... cheap fuel that is available anywhere there is a gas station/walmart/hardware store."
True for the hardware and perhaps Walmart stores, but not always true for gas stations. Hiking in summertime one can certainly find gas stations that aren't currently stocking gas line anti-freeze.
I don't mean to devalue the general idea expressed here --- denatured alcohol/heet is certainly more available than other stove fuel types except in some situations with wood burning stoves, i.e., things like: http://bushbuddy.ca/
And in summertime I've found and carried HEET before, sometimes purchased in gas stations, sometimes even in grocery stores.
MikenSalem,
I had an Outback Oven.
The instructions warn about canister stoves.
It is necessary to use the Outback Oven with a white gas stove, of the type with the fuel canister out away from the Outback Oven. It is also important to have a good "simmer".
Then, I was able to make calzone, foccacia, and their exceptional fudge brownies. I also made biscuits, including "variations" like italian cheese biscuits. Etc.
sheepdog
10-12-2009, 22:21
I tried out my alcohol stove this weekend, it lit really fast burned very hot and boiled quickly. I could not see the flame and was trying to see if it was lit, it gets hot fast. My friend has the Jetboil and took forever to boil water. I was eating my oatmeal by the time hers boiled. I have to get something to handle the pot, I use a fosters beer can cut in half and it is hot to handle.
There is not an alcohol stove in the world that can boil faster than a jetboil. Must have been operator error.
Skidsteer
10-12-2009, 22:23
There is not an alcohol stove in the world that can boil faster than a jetboil. Must have been operator error.
True dat.
Or he was boiling one cup while the buddy was boiling three cups.
Wise Old Owl
10-13-2009, 00:26
MikenSalem,
I had an Outback Oven.
The instructions warn about canister stoves.
It is necessary to use the Outback Oven with a white gas stove, of the type with the fuel canister out away from the Outback Oven. It is also important to have a good "simmer".
Then, I was able to make calzone, foccacia, and their exceptional fudge brownies. I also made biscuits, including "variations" like italian cheese biscuits. Etc.
One alcohol stove I made blew up and burned my shirt.... you are always going to have "rookie" problems when you don't test things out.
Practice Practice Practice
FYI I made a aluminum sheild to use the outback with canister and so far no worrys.
http://www.backpackerspantry.com/pdf/OutbackOven_bakingbooklet.pdf
I see the Outback Oven may be used, now, with a "reflector collar" however there is a warning not to turn the stove up "high" or leave it all unattended.
Thanks for the "heads up" because, now, I am not limited to the other type stove setup.
NitroSteel
10-14-2009, 19:42
I don't ever see carrying an alcohol stove even if it does save weight in the long run or short run. I'd carry a small cannister stove if I didn't carry the SVEA or MSR Reactor. If it's cold in the morning, I want something warm in a hurry...
sheepdog
10-14-2009, 20:19
I don't ever see carrying an alcohol stove even if it does save weight in the long run or short run. I'd carry a small cannister stove if I didn't carry the SVEA or MSR Reactor. If it's cold in the morning, I want something warm in a hurry...
The reactor is a little heavy but it really is a good stove.
There is not an alcohol stove in the world that can boil faster than a jetboil. Must have been operator error.
I think Oops56 might be able to tell us of a vintage stove that burns alcohol that will put the heat out and couple it with the jetboil pot to get the same boil time.:-? You've seen the "coil" stoves that burn alchy. They sure do push out the heat. I'm working on a coil stove that holds only one ounce of fuel and will boil 2 cups. It's nice and compact, only one problem, it has a disconnected pot stand:D I've become partial to one piece stoves.
brooklynkayak
10-15-2009, 13:17
Most alcohol stoves have far less things that can go wrong with them. I have seen many cannister stoves fail and/or have to be maintained regularly and parts ordered and replaced.
If you want reliability, I'd bet alcohol.
Alcohol can be had at auto parts stores, convenience stores, gas stations, hardware stores, etc...
Cannisters can usually only be had at outfitters. That means you will probably have to carry much more fuel on a thru-hike.
Alcohol stoves only take a minute or two longer to boil water. What is the rush, it's not like you are sitting there waiting for it!
There are alcohol stoves that can simmer, or you can carry an extra 1/2 oz alcohol simmer stove.
Alcohol stoves blowing up or starting fires? Either the wrong fuel or poorly designed stove.
A cannister puncture would be pretty scary, An alcohol leak means the smell of alcohol until it dries. Either could be dangerous if it happened near a flame.
I personally cook on found fuel most of the time so I don't carry much fuel. I do like to use the alky stove to make coffee on those cold mornings when my hands are to cold to fiddle with a wood fire.
I'll never go back to a cannister stove,
Kayakado
10-15-2009, 14:48
I keep track of my canisters by weighing them on a kitchen scale that gives weights in grams. I can weigh a full can and then partials to compare and determine how much gas is left.
Jester2000
10-15-2009, 15:37
If you weigh your fuel canisters before and after use, you get a handle on how long they last and can use up the "open" cans. Just write the weight on them with a sharpie and you'll know how much is left.
I like my Alcohol stoves in the warmer months on shorter trips. I did get an Outback Oven which requires a canister stove and am going to see how that goes. Overall if my pack goes over 33# the fun stops.
I've decided to try out a canister. Already mentioned was that the Pocket Rocket was on sale at REI, which it is.
I elected to go with a Coleman F1 Ultralite. Great reviews and more heat output. It is also on sale at Amazon. I'm a "Prime" member, so free two-day shipping.
http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-F1-Ultralight-Stove/dp/B002LBC1EY
When I get back drom a trip where I've used my cannister stove, I write in sharpie marker on the cannister how many meals I've used it for. Makes it easy to grab one on the next trip that will suit my fuel needs without guessing by weight.
sheepdog
10-15-2009, 15:39
When I get back drom a trip where I've used my cannister stove, I write in sharpie marker on the cannister how many meals I've used it for. Makes it easy to grab one on the next trip that will suit my fuel needs without guessing by weight.
I do the same thing, it works great.
Brooklykayak. exactly what do you mean by you cook on found fuel? I assume that means you somehow scrounge fuel from....? How reliable is that? Can you explain?
Kayakado, you can also purchase at a minimal cost stickers that attach to the side of isobutane fuel canisters that show how much fuel is left inside the container. With enough use though you can estimate rather closely how much fuel is in a 4 oz or 8 oz can of isobutane.
brooklynkayak
10-15-2009, 17:41
Brooklykayak. exactly what do you mean by you cook on found fuel? I assume that means you somehow scrounge fuel from....? How reliable is that? Can you explain?.
You can almost always find some kind of fuel in the outdoors. I have found fuel in barren deserts, treeless islands(driftwood). You don't need much to cook a meal. One small branch of a tree, a couple pine cones, dry grass, ....
You can even find enough wood to cook with in those popular campsites where you think there wouldn't be any.
Ok I get it now. I just thought since we were discussing alcohol and gas stoves you somehow find those fuels while on the trail.
brooklynkayak
10-15-2009, 19:37
Ok I get it now. I just thought since we were discussing alcohol and gas stoves you somehow find those fuels while on the trail.
Oh yeah, I was drifting off the subject.
What I meant was that I only use an alcohol stove rarely, so it is lighter than a canister stove as I only carry a few ounces of fuel.
If I cooked all my meals on fuel that I carried and I was going to be away from resupply for more than a week, then a canister would be the lighter choice.
Alcohol "fuel weight" thing makes me laugh. Take a dump before you start your hike and carry an alcohol stove - that's about the weight difference over a long trip.