View Full Version : Guide book - Companion or Handbook?
I would be interested to know if Baltimore Jack considers the "Thru-Hikers Handbook" or the "Thru-Hikers Companion" to be the more helpful tool.
I wish the "Companion" had better mileage info. In its present form you really need the "Data Book" in addition to the "Companion".
Jack Tarlin
10-22-2002, 14:46
The Companion, for several reasons:
1. More accurate, as its authors and editors have recent thru-hiking experience. The author of the Handbook hasn't thru-hiked in a decade and it shows. Half the places he stayed at during his alleged thru-hiking years no longer exist; most of the places and facilities hikers use now are new in the past 10 years; the Handbook's author has never experienced these places as a hiker, has never experienced most of them personally at all; has encountered their owners only thru E-Mail or telephone; receives most of his field knowledge thru 2nd or 3rd parties, and is growing increasingly out-of-touch with the contemporary trail.
2. Companion comes out on time. Handbook comes out late or not at all.
3. Along with Data Book, all you need is the Companion and a map set. Even if you go with the Handbook and its mileage info, you should still have the Data Book, for its info on water sources, campsites, etc.
4. Handbook is biased. At least one very popular new Trail facility wasn't even mentioned in the Handbook, even tho its creation was known to the Handbook's author well before his publication deadline. He happens to be on friendly terms with this place's principal competitor. Loyal to a friend? Yeah. But accurate and in the best interests of folks who are seeking fair, honest, complete Trail info? Hardly.
5. Purchasing the Companion gives back to the Trail, as it assists the ATC amd ALDHA, two very worthy organizations. (See www.atconf.org for on-line purchasing info; ATC members get a discount, and there are further "thru-hiker specials" coming up in a few weeks, if in fact, they are not available now).
6. I used the Companion, I urge others to do likewise; if I were to thru-hike again, there's no doubt which work I would rely on, both before and during my hike.
I used the Companion and maps for my southern section hike. The maps are nice for elevation profiles and looking for water sources, but not too much else (other than fun). I would like the Companion to list elevation gains over smallish chunks and list water sources, but this may be too much. In the future, I will probably carry just the Companion and maps, but might also get the data book for water sources. Last year the Handbook did not come out in time for the majority of NOBO hikers to use. I think it was actually on the market in mid-March, which is too late for planning purposes, unless you are leaving in May.
Jack Tarlin
10-23-2002, 13:02
Wow. Seems like Chris and I are fated to disagree every now and then. So be it.
Gotta say something about the comment re. maps being good only for trail profiles and water sources. This is decidedly untrue. Here are some other things maps are good for.
1. They tell you where you are in relation to the world off the Trail. You know what's ahead of you or behind, to the left or the right. They show you geographical features, side trails, roads, you'd otherwise be totally unaware of.
2. They're absolutely essential if you need to get off the Trail in a hurry in case of an emergency, or if you're trying to help someone else, especially if you need to find a road in a hurry, a phone, a doctor, or a cop. They're essential tools in an any search and rescue operation, or if you have to pinpoint a location for a resuce party or law-enforcement official. Without maps, you only have a rough idea of where you are or were.
3. They'll help you plan your hiking day, provided you take the time and trouble to learn how to read em. Wanna get the worst climbs outta the way in the morning when you're fresh and it's not too hot? Wanna end the day on a mountaintop to catch a sunset? Wanna find a good spot for your folks to come out and hike with you for 3 days that won't kill 'em? The maps will tell you this sort of thing and much more.
4. They'll be a tremendous help BEFORE your hike, as you plan your maildrops and re-supply. 80 miles of trail in North Carolina is very different from 80 in Central Virginia or New Hampshire. Your maps will help you get a better idea of what a particular stretch will be like, which will give you an idea of how much time to allocate on the section which will assist you in planning your schedule and your food needs.
I could go on, but you get the picture. Maps are, in my opinion, essential, and nobody with any sense should go into the backcountry without them, and the ability to use them. You'll find them an invaluable tool both before and during your hike, and they're well worth the cost.
The Weasel
10-23-2002, 13:36
I agree with both Jack AND Chris here, but for reasons neither really mention:
The ATC maps are worthless. Their scale is so large that they tell you nothing. I've got a lot of backcountry navigation experience, and I don't need to look at a map that tells me what's happening for the next 100 miles...I need one that tells me what to expect in the next 100 yards, sometimes. The profiles aren't worth much either, on the ATC maps, for the same reason: Scale is just worthless.
On the other hand, Jack's right. NEVER go on a trail without a map. You can get lost, caught in snow that covers white blazes, and a million other uses. I got the Maptech/ATC CDRom maps, which permitted me to have an 8-1/2 x 11 inch page (which I printed) at full USGS topo map scale, usually about 1"=1,000'. That meant I could see contours on a clear basis, note upcoming creeks, determine my own profiles ("Hmm....8 contour lines, 50 feet each, in the next 1/4 mile! 400 feet up...gonna be a sweaty 10 mins!"). The Maptech set also showed the trail plainly marked, all shelters, and all the other features of a GOOD topo. I'd print them out in pages that covered 4-6 miles of trail, which meant for a week I'd have about 20 sheets of paper. When everyone checked maps in the morning, anyone with an ATC map set theirs down and joined me. It was never the other way around.
The Weasel
Baltimore Jack is right about most of his points.
1) This is definitely correct. I did use the maps for locating water sources in the south.
2) I was pretty confident that, in an emergency,
I could boogy off the trail pretty fast, with maps or without. The AT is never far from a road crossing in the South. However, you could get out faster with a map, I believe. The degree of quickness is more in doubt.
3) The maps are helpful for planning, particulary for putting yourself in the right mental state (as regards climbs, say). I liked the elevation profiles for this.
4) This is the only point I would tend to disagree on: I think the Companion is a far better method for planning resupply than the maps.
On a final note, the Weasal is right on the money: The scale is too big to navigate by. I might not carry maps for most of the AT, but you can be sure I would carry them for New Hampshire on. From what I've seen of the Whites, the land is just in a different class altogether than the deep South.
Jack Tarlin
10-23-2002, 14:48
I never meant to imply that the maps were better than the Companion for planning your re-supply. What I said (and I thought it was pretty clear) was that they were an invaluable tool for providing you with information about the physical terrain lying ahead of you; possession of this knowledge would obviously be a great assistance in planning your scheduling, mileage, ammount of food/time needed for a particular stretch, etc.
Re. Weasel's comment, about the maps being "worthless." Whew! Pretty strong language, and in my opinion, uncalled for. As I stated in my above post, they're anything but worthless. And as for their scale, it's very useful at times to know what lies off the trail, especially on either side of it. This knowledge is priceless, even if the maps sometimes cover ground miles distant from the Trail. A few years ago, horrible weather in Maine made stream fording dangerous, and in several cases, impossible. It was necessary to backtrack quite a distance, and blue-blaze along old lumber roads til we could get around the high water and back on the Trail. We were forced to go miles out of our way, and not several hundred yards. Without the ATC maps, this would've been plainly impossible---we'd have had absolutely no way of knowing which old road to take, where it went, which turns to take or avoid, which was the most efficient way of getting where we needed to be. And needless to say, without maps, we'd have gotten lost in the middle of nowhere, and Maine in the fall is a really lousy place to get lost, especially if you're off a major trail. So the maps were anything but worthless. Their large scope and scale were absolutely essential.
To describe the maps as "worthless" is a dis-service to the ATC, and to the thousands of hours, many of them volunteer hours, that goes into their production. They are anything but worthless, and for folks to term them in such terms, or to insinuate that they aren't much use except for "fun"---well, sorry, I think this is lousy advice to share on a Forum aimed at dispensing useful info to prospective hikers, and is not what they need to hear. The maps are an extraordinarily useful tool, nobody should hike without 'em, and I'm grateful to the ATC and to the local ATC clubs for producing them.
SGT Rock
10-23-2002, 15:17
As to the maps, I am a map freak. I love maps and doing land navigation training with soldiers. For 4 years I taught land navigation at PLDC (if your Army you know what that is).
The scale we used was 1:50,000. This worked fine even for small movements of 600-1000 meters (about 1/3 to 2/3 miles) and for larger movements is great. The ATC scale is 1:62,500 in the maps I have used, and this is not far off the 1:50,000 scale. True I wouldn't want to do an orienteering competion with it, but conidering the ground you need to cover, it isn't bad. I could successfully bushwack around the mountains with it, the hard part in the south would be the rhotadendron (sp?) hells. I haven't tried the Map Tec software but bet making custom maps would be nice - but I like the waterproof maps I get better than papper and runny ink-jet ink.
As to terrain profiles, except knowing exactly where the big hills are, they don't do you much good. Often what looks like a flat walk on a terrain profile will be covered in sharp ups and downs because of the scale used. Before you beat up the ATC on that - you'll notice they even use an exageration (a pretty big one too) to try and get those small ups and downs better depicted. I like the terrain profile for planning where my hiking day ends - I prefer saving the uphills for the start of a day.
Now as for the companion - it may be more up to date and accurate, but last time I looked at it the set up confused me. It had a lot of sheleter and town data, but I was lookiing for trail land marks. I guess that is why you need the data book and the companion.
Jack Tarlin
10-23-2002, 15:36
Rock is 100% right about the Companion; while its town info is great, it could use more TRAIL info, especially as regards campsites, shelters, and most of all information on water sources. The single advantage I can think of with the Handbook is that there is fairly reliable data on springs, alternate sources, etc. Hopefully, the Companion will improve in this regard. By the way, re.water, while ANY guidebook (Handbook, Companion, Data Book) will not always be right (for example many water sources listed in the Data Book and even the maps were dry this summer), we usually got fairly accurate information that in most cases, either prevented us from arriving at a place and finding it dry, or the equally annoying problem of carrying gallons all day and finding we didn't need it. Best advice for next year's folks during the dry stretches: 1)Carry more than you planned, you'll frequently be happy that you did 2)Don't take for granted that "listed" water will be there, regardless of what Guidebook you're using 3)Quiz southbounders for info on the Trail ahead of you, but don't stake your health or life on what they tell you 4)Use shelter registers for information on what lies ahead, where the alternate sources/secondary springs etc. can be found.
Anyway, glad to hear from Rock who probably knows more about maps than anyone on this Forum. Perhaps it's time to move this thread to a more appropriate section, like Gear/Equipment, instead of continuing it on a thread originally dealing with the latest Dan Bruce tantrum. There's some good info here on Guidebooks, maps, etc., but it's not located where a lot of folks will find it. In future, I'll make an effort to keep posts on-topic, and failing that, will start a new thread so folks interested in specific topics or info won't have trouble locating them.
Getting back on topic (or at least closer to the topic), both publications are no better than the information they have to work with.
Myself, I carried Wingfoot, and as I went along, I made notes on everything I came across. If the text was adequate, then I noted it as OK. If it was a place that I didn't checkout, then I noted that I did not check it out. Otherwise, I tried to make all the corrections needed. (Man, as Jack notes, there were a lot of things that needed changing.) Then, I sent the pages to Wingfoot. When I finished my hike, all I had left was the two covers.
So, to Jack, and everyone else reading this, next time you are out on the trail with either the Companion or Wingfoot, take the time to note what needs to be corrected, and send comments back to the appropriate editor. Otherwise, they are going to keep publishing the same old inaccurate data.
Hammock Hanger
10-23-2002, 17:08
It was stated at the Gathering business meeting that the Companion 2003 will be an improved version. Not sure whatexactly that means but it sounded like a lot of work and review has been done. HH
SGT Rock
10-23-2002, 17:38
My personal preference in a guide since I'm a user - this is my $0.02.
1. Sequential. I don't want a town chapter by each section and a shelter chapter by each section. Put the whole list exactly as I will see it. Nice to know stuff about regulations in certain areas like the SMNP is good, but list it as I see it. The ATC section guides DRIVE ME NUTS!
2. List water, shelters, resupply, hostels etc. But do not concentrate just on towns and shelters. I'm not a shelter rat, my biggest beef with most guides is the cool campsites aren't listed so I can't say "Here is a cool campsite with/without water or a great view - I'll aim for that tonight" please let me know. My main beef with the Companion is it reads like a shelter and town reference book. The ATC section guides do a better job with this.
3. Maps are nice for the towns, both books do a god job. I especially like if short term or long term resupply is possible and showing locations for most needed hiker services. Town info including post office info, hotel prices, and other good to know hiker info like laundry and bath options are nice. Heck, I like to hit town, re-supply, clean up, then get out often. I just ask no favoritism is shown over one provider by the editor or writers.
4. Road crossings listings are nice, but there are other good to know reference points to cover. Cool balds and interesting things like gravestones and a little history can make things interesting.
5. Put margins to write in and make it easy to take apart :D
Former Admin
10-23-2002, 19:09
5. Put margins to write in and make it easy to take apart :D
Alright i'll work on putting margins in for Rock when I publish my guide in 2004. ( Easyhiker's guide to the AT )
I will not even be hiking the trail, i'll just sit in my living room and browse thru other guides and the internet for my information. Theres no sense to really go out and hike the trail if your going to do a guide. I'm not going to lie to you and say that im out on the trail for six months a year collecting information, because I won't be. I'll let other hikers do all the work for me and not share the profits with them. I might even write some of my own reviews on Amazon to improve sales. I'll also mention on my site that I applied to be a non-profit organization, when in fact I really haven't, nobody will know the difference.:D
LoL Just Kidding:p
EarlyRiser
10-23-2002, 21:11
Well actualy on a serious note. perhaps it would be possible for whiteblaze.net to actualy write an AT guide. this is probably looking pretty far into the future and all. but i think it just might work, i mean theres so much information on this forum, and as we get more people our database will expand and we will get a great cross section of the acutal AT community. everyone has suggested improvments for the existing guides. what if we were to write our own? ofcourse this would be a pretty big undertaking, but once it gets off the ground im sure it could turn into a great thing for the trail. and hey maybe it could be not-for-profit and be our gift back to the trail. it also seems to me like there should be two volumes, one for things such as towns with lots of information, the kind of thing youd leave at home, and another that would be designed for trail use, with places in it to take notes from the large home volume so that the consumer could choose what information they really needed. and it would include more essential trail information such as water sources, milage, elevations, and things like that. its just a thought, and it could be somthing that everyone would have a part in creating. so there would be a distribution of responcibilities so noone would have to much. but that would require interest and time, which im sure most of you dont have, and if you have it your probably on the trail! well thats just my idea. i think it would be fun, and of real help to a lot of people.
SGT Rock
10-23-2002, 22:12
I would not be oposed to that at all. In fact I think it could be set up on some software platform like Microsoft Word as a document and made available for free download. I wouldn't mind trying to help the initial format, I do have some experience wth this. It wouldn't be a pretty or slick guide full of photos and diagrams. Strip maps are easily obtained from Map Quest, and they even have a way to be linked for a specific look up.
Benifits:
1. Hikers form this site could give input. The basic format shouldn't be too hard. I did a platoon TACSOP like this once and you could print two pages sideways to each page and do it double sided.
2. Delete the pages/files you don't want prior to printing. A truely customized hiker guide.
3. Since it is in Word, you could add your own info, make it in color with built in highlighting, etc.
4. Hikers could preview and plan before ever deciding what guide to use. I like the way the new companion is on-line.
Disadvantages:
1. It may take money from other people that sell guides - profit or non-profit. Honestly I think someone out there would cause us problems - at least claim that some material came from their guide. Wonder what our resident lawyer would have to say about that?
The Weasel
10-23-2002, 23:57
Speaking as a moderator, I'd like to see (a) the "book" debate go to "Media" and (b) the "map" discussion" go ALSO to "media as a separate thread. I'm NOT moving them, but strongly urge that. I'll kick off the thread with my "Maptech" review, as to maps.
The Weasel
Going back to the post by Admin, there is always the decision to be made on how much information and detail to put in the Companion / Wingfoot.
The original intent was to be a supplement providing key information for thru-hikers, like town information.
One the other extreme, if it includes every campsite, view point, water source, and other details, it could be come more voluminous that the 10 volume AT guide books set.
SGT Rock
10-24-2002, 08:17
LOL. Weasel, you must be connecting thru the new posts link. I moved this to the media thread yesterday afternoon.
Peaks, I agree you couldn't possibly list every campsite. Heck, with my hammock I've found even the side of a mountain can be a campsite as long as I have two good trees :D
What I'm talking about is there are nice spots that are habitual campsites like beside Blackwell Creek Bridge. Good water, wide flat spot, a really nice place to camp. Or Standing Indian Mountain - good water close, nice view, etc.
But instead a guide like the Companion will give you every nitnoid detail about the shelters and not even mention a good campsite. That has been the one of two reasons I like the Handbook over the Companion. But I'm not totally happy with the Hanbook either.
Anyway, if there was a guide you could print on your own where you could edit out what you didn't want, that would be cool. I guess the Map Tec software allows you to make notes on your maps and print off just the info you want, does the guide that comes in the set allow the same freedom? If so, maybe I should look around for a used one? Weasel, since you reccomend it for the maps, how about the trail info/guide built in? :cool:
Ah, people have been active of late I see. I think the idea of writing a guide is good, but it would have to add some _significant_ improvement over the Companion and the Handbook. I haven't used the Handbook. I like the Companion alot. I think if it added information about nice campsites, trailprofiles, and water source info, that would be a good step forward. I don't think that could be improved on very much.
The Weasel
10-24-2002, 12:38
The Maptech maps actually allow you to put notes right onto the map surface before printing, which is a VERY useful thing to do and very easy. As for the guide, if you just print the guide pages (which are exactly the same as the official AT books), you can't add notes, but if you cut and paste them to a word processor, you can. However, you can only access them one AT Section (per the guides) at a time. But the map feature is excellent.
My understanding from Maptech is the maps are as current as the US Geodetic Survey maps they are made from. Sometimes that can include incomplete or outdated info, but NOT as to the AT itself, which is up-to-date. I.e., there may be a railroad shown that is no longer operating (the Virginia Creeper is a good example near Damascus), but trail features are pretty current, I found.
The Weasel
Jack Tarlin
10-24-2002, 12:50
Very quick two cents on this one. I'm not sure we need a new Guidebook; it'll be very confusing to prospective hikers if there are 4 or 5 on the market. I personally think the Companion is a great book, and intend to spend my energies on assisting its editors in helping produce an improved work each year; the folks who put this book out are great folks and are always open to suggestions and ideas. I suggest that folks truly interested in this get involved with ALDHA and offer their input and help.
Another advantage to pushing the Companion and helping it become the book of record is that purchases of this work assist the ATC and ALDHA, two very worthy organizations that all of us should join and support.
Once again, Jack, you beat me to the post.
Rather than bitch about one publication or another, get involved. ALDHA will surely welcome your help.
Former Admin
10-24-2002, 19:50
I didn't mean for my parody (humor) to bring seriousness to the possibility of a new guide.
I agree with Jack and Peaks on this one. We should all picth in with changes and info for the A.L.D.H.A. / ATC Companion, to make it as best as can be. You should also buy this guide regardless if you by the other one or not. This is the only guide that you can purchase where you know the profit from the sale will go directly to trail matters. That last fact sells me the book regardless of what else is out there. Support the trail not someones ........ fund.
I can't really comment on the other guidebooks, but it seemed to me that in 2001 Wingfoot's book was the most popular. What shortcomings it had were, in my opinion, relatively few and for the most part, insignificant.
Personally, I felt the handbook had a good feel for the types of information I was interested in. It told me what I wanted to know and didn't deluge me with a lot of filler. I rather enjoy the feeling of not knowing every detail of what lies ahead of me. A minimalist at heart, I didn't carry maps on the AT, (I normally do in wilderness country) and felt the place I wanted maps the most was for trail towns. Wingfoot's choice of trail town maps were good, I thought.
I remember running into Peaks once and discussing something that should be noted for the next edition of the Handbook, and that was one of the many corrections Peaks wrote down. I was too lazy to make all those notes!
While it is true that Wingfoot hasn't thru-hiked in a while, the book itself didn't seem out-of-touch to me, probably because of the efforts of folks like Peaks.
Jack Tarlin
01-17-2003, 16:19
Shortly after the 2003 Companion and Handbook are published, I'll be sending along a list of updates and corrections for both works, as every year, there are a few minor mistakes and omissions. I advise other folks who have hiked recently to do likewise.
Received the new "Thru-Hikers Handbook" this year....ON TIME!!! It is an interesting new format. The "Data-Book" type mileage info is actually more detailed than the real thing.
I called ATC today regarding the "Companion" and they now indicate that they will be shipping the week of Feb 17th.
TJ aka Teej
02-03-2003, 10:33
Originally posted by Jack Tarlin
I'll be sending along a list of updates and corrections for both works, as every year, there are a few minor mistakes and omissions. I advise other folks who have hiked recently to do likewise.
I've only seen one page of Wingy's book.
Corrections for page 90:
1)The Birches is NOT "for Thruhikers only". Southbounders and flip floppers are not allowed to stay at the Birches. Any northbound "long distance" hiker who starts in Monson is allowed to stay. Including mere section hikers.
2)At the end of the driveway from the Ranger's cabin, take a LEFT to get to the Birches. There is no signage.
3)The is no "stream" at the Birches. No water at all. You need to get water back at the Rangers cabin, (about .4 miles). There is a small brook about .5 miles down the blue blaze by the shelter, but it's only a trickle in dry weather.
4)The mandatory sign in/sign out for climbing Katahdin is at the trailhead, not at the ranger's cabin.
5)Katahdin Stream Falls is listed as a possible water source - it's a dangerous 30ft granite cliff. Get your water back before you cross the footbridge.
6)Thoreau Spring is listed as 'intermittent' - it might be down by the sign where the runoff crosses the trail, but 25 feet uphill at the actual spring there is a rockwork bottle well that I have never seen dry.