View Full Version : More SPOT abuse...
tlbj6142
10-21-2009, 12:00
Even I was a bit angry after reading one...
From today's NPS Morning Report-
"Grand Canyon National Park (AZ)
Hikers Evacuated After Three SPOT Activations In Three Days
On the evening of September 23rd, rangers began a search for hikers who repeatedly activated their rented SPOT satellite tracking device. The GEOS Emergency Response Center in Houston reported that someone in the group of four hikers – two men and their two teenaged sons – had pressed the “help” button on their SPOT unit. The coordinates for the signal placed the group in a remote section of the park, most likely on the challenging Royal Arch loop. Due to darkness and the remoteness of the location, rangers were unable to reach them via helicopter until the following morning. When found, they’d moved about a mile and a half to a water source. They declined rescue, as they’d activated the device due to their lack of water. Later that same evening, the same SPOT device was again activated, this time using the “911” button. Coordinates placed them less than a quarter mile from the spot where searchers had found them that morning. Once again, nightfall prevented a response by park helicopter, so an Arizona DPS helicopter whose crew utilized night vision goggles was brought in. They found that the members of the group were concerned about possible dehydration because the water they’d found tasted salty, but no actual emergency existed. The helicopter crew declined their request for a night evacuation, but provided them with water before departing. On the following morning, another SPOT “help” activation came in from the group. This time they were flown out by park helicopter. All four refused medical assessment or treatment. The group’s leader had reportedly hiked once at the Grand Canyon; the other adult had no Grand Canyon and very little backpacking experience. When asked what they would have done without the SPOT device, the leader stated, “We would have never attempted this hike.” The group leader was issued a citation for creating a hazardous condition (36 CFR 2.34(a)(4)). [Submitted by Brandon Torres, Canyon District Shift Supervisor]
Hikerhead
10-21-2009, 12:10
This bunch should pay for the NH kid's 25,000.00 fine and then all would be well with me.
Look for more of these type of incidents as SPOT (and similar technology) becomes more available and affordable....
ShelterLeopard
10-21-2009, 12:31
That's ridiculous... Stories like this really irritate me. These people really irritate me, I mean, come ON. I was going to start ranting, but that post was getting pretty long, and those "hikers" won't read it anyway.
Perhaps the Spot should only be sold/rented with mandatory liability insurance to pay for the rescue or false alarms that the users initiate.
That would price to device out of reach for the incredibly stupid and pay for the increase in false rescues resulting from their use.
beakerman
10-21-2009, 13:21
I don't know Ithink if there is not an emergency then the SAR folks should induce one--beat someone senseless then evacuate them nd isue citations afterwards. I agree with Mags--look for this sort fo thing more frequently.
Unfortunately as technology makes instantaneous communications easier folks are less likely to do without these sorts of devices. Heck even I have trouble walking out the door without my cell phone anymore and have actually turned the car around to go get it.
Personally I think instead of the SPOT they should rent satelite phones that only call the SAR office so they can at least attempt to assess the situation before firing up the chopper. The SPOT is great but in many cases inadequate for the general idiot on on the trail...
Bulldawg
10-21-2009, 13:41
I think the SAR folks should release the names of all involved!!
Slo-go'en
10-21-2009, 13:45
Before the spot device is activated or rented, the user should be required to sign a form which says reascue costs will be charged if a non-life threating or non-emergency conditions are determined to exist. These costs can range from $10,000 to over $100,000.
If too many people start to use the spot device irresponsably, the usefullness of it will be diminished. The big problem with the the SPOT device is there is no way of telling why the 911 or help button was pushed until someone gets to them.
These kinds of situations need to be avoided. A solution needs to be found. Ridiculous indeed!
Unfortunately as technology makes instantaneous communications easier folks are less likely to do without these sorts of devices.
It is a culture of connectivity. Not only as a culture are we expecting connectivity as much as possible..but it is assumed other people want (and have) this connectivity as well.
On hikes, group or otherwise, I tend to turn off my phone off just prior to the hike. I lead a group hike not long ago where I was taken to task because the woman was running late...and could not get a hold of me. She assumed I had a cell phone and it was on.
(I now tell people to meet at say 8:15 and we leave at 8:30. If you are running late..bring a map and hoof it. :) People out West tend to think of meeting times as a suggestion rather than something concrete. Being an East Coast transplant, I tend to not think this. ;) )
I wrote an essay on this a year or so ago:
http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/Outdoor-Writings/The-Changing-Culture-of-Connectivity.html
Some people from SPOT, wilderness rangers and myself were also interviewed for a podcast on this subject:
http://www.pmags.com/joomla/index.php/PMags-News/wb_pt1.html
I blame man vs. wild.
"Oh gosh! I've encountered some salty water! I'm in a true emergency situation and I'm in need of rescue!
...
Oh look! Rushing water! Let's jump in with our clothes on!"
Bulldawg
10-21-2009, 14:22
It is a culture of connectivity. Not only as a culture are we expecting connectivity as much as possible..but it is assumed other people want (and have) this connectivity as well.
On hikes, group or otherwise, I tend to turn off my phone off just prior to the hike. I lead a group hike not long ago where I was taken to task because the woman was running late...and could not get a hold of me. She assumed I had a cell phone and it was on.
(I now tell people to meet at say 8:15 and we leave at 8:30. If you are running late..bring a map and hoof it. :) People out West tend to think of meeting times as a suggestion rather than something concrete. Being an East Coast transplant, I tend to not think this. ;) )
I do the same thing Mags on any hikes I plan with folks. I always tell them the leave time from the trailhead is 15 minutes prior to when I actually want to leave. And I will leave your butt behind too.
And I always carry a phone but turn it off before it goes in my pocket or my pack. On long hikes I usually bury it in my pack and it only comes out at night, in camp. The wife does like the fact that I can check in occasionally. Then it goes right back in the off mode.
sheepdog
10-21-2009, 14:48
spot needs a "I need a pizza button"
push the button and dominos delivers.
SPOT needs a feature in which the user can record a 15 or 30 second message, then once the 911 button is hit, the message is sent to the dispatch centre.. So say you broke your leg and required a rescue you could send a message, "Leg broke, need rescue" thereby giving responders some info to determine the seriousness of the incident. Perhaps the dispatch centre could also have the ability to send a signal back to the SPOT unit indicating that help is coming or not...
Then again, if this where the case then why not just carry a sat phone...
In the end people need to be self reliant and understand the risk involved once you depart from civilization..
I'll stick to my signal fires, worked for century's and requires no fancy technology..
wrongway_08
10-21-2009, 15:25
Sounds like they should be required to pay the cost of all 3 "rescues". Fined on top of that and then thrown into a locked cell with BUBBA for 24 hours - to see what a real emergency is!
Shame these people didnt walk off a cliff.................
SPOT needs a feature in which the user can record a 15 or 30 second message, then once the 911 button is hit, the message is sent to the dispatch centre.. So say you broke your leg and required a rescue you could send a message, "Leg broke, need rescue" thereby giving responders some info to determine the seriousness of the incident. Perhaps the dispatch centre could also have the ability to send a signal back to the SPOT unit indicating that help is coming or not...
what are ya kidding me? it has a hard enough time sending simple 1-line data transmissions every 10 minutes.
skinewmexico
10-21-2009, 17:32
This bunch should pay for the NH kid's 25,000.00 fine and then all would be well with me.
Amen to that.
Trailweaver
10-21-2009, 17:40
I thought this was a joke when I first read it. I would never, ever do something that stupid - call three times? Didn't they ever hear the "kid who cries 'Wolf!' story?" I agree that they should pay for the "rescues" as well as a hefty fine. Then, someone should take their "toy" away, as obviously that's what they think it is.
If you can't rescue yourself, then don't go into the woods. If you honestly need rescueing, that's another story - but don't waste a rescue group's time and resources. When you file a false police report, you are charged accordingly and you do pay a fine!
The reason I probably will never buy the Spot is that I'm too worried that it would accidentally go off in my bag, a SAR will come looking for me, and I'll be charged for it. It probably wouldn't happen, but it isn't worth the risk. I don't even make $25,000 a year!
ShelterLeopard
10-21-2009, 18:44
spot needs a "I need a pizza button"
push the button and dominos delivers.
True- forget SAR, how about just a device with a pizza button?
As for me, I only carry a cell phone in the first place in case I break my leg (or come across someone else who broke their leg), but I almost always have it off on the trail. The only people I call when hiking are family, the only time I call them is in towns, I may occasionally call from the trail if five days or more have gone by and I won't be getting to a town anytime soon, but I'd much rather be disconnected.
And it's easier than waiting for the pay phone in town.
Jester2000
10-21-2009, 19:02
I blame man vs. wild.
"Oh gosh! I've encountered some salty water! I'm in a true emergency situation and I'm in need of rescue!
...
Oh look! Rushing water! Let's jump in with our clothes on!"
Don't forget that after you've gotten out of the water you need to get naked and build a fire.
I suspect that, much like cell phones, SPOT devices encourage people to do things they should not be doing. Like leaving their houses.
Two words: High Explosives! :p
1/4 lb of C4 in each of the pockets of the leader, then name the crater after him/her.
A friend once said: "All problems can be solved with enough C4, If the problem isn't solved, you didn't use enough C4!"
Yea, I got weird friends,,,, yet almost no "Normal" friends. I wonder why that is. :rolleyes:
Lemni Skate
10-21-2009, 20:04
I get angry when I read about people being charged for rescues who never asked to be rescued, but these idiots called out for help. Charge them the cost plus a 500% fine and make them watch C-SPAN for a week.
These guys should be pummeled. If someone needs help, I'll help them any time I can, but when somebody goes out and causes themselves trouble like this...egads!
I don't carry anything but a little cell phone for checking in with the wife once every other day or so, and then it's a 2 minute call to tell her I'm alive and I cut it off. I would be so humiliated to call for help. I'd pretty much have to have a compound fracture or a rattlesnake bite. What a bunch of babies we've become.
They must have hit the 911 button 3 times. HItting the help button doesn't connect to the GEOS center. Of course that doesn't excuse stupid people. Just a little observation.
How easy is it too accidently push that button. If my cell phone were an emergency device I'd have incurred a few false alarms myself.
Jayboflavin04
10-21-2009, 23:20
What about say an "alert tracking" button. Say your having trouble but not an an actual "emergency" ie you may be lost, cant find water, sprained ankle ect. That the "powers that be" can be alert that you are still moving, but matters may become worse for you. I do agree with everyone here that this is silly and when entering the back country you should know your limitations, and be well prepared.
After the first "rescue" was refused SAR should have confiscated the SPOT. $25,000 x 4 (for four people) would buy it back.
nitewalker
10-22-2009, 07:12
Even I was a bit angry after reading one...
From today's NPS Morning Report-
"Grand Canyon National Park (AZ)
Hikers Evacuated After Three SPOT Activations In Three Days
On the evening of September 23rd, rangers began a search for hikers who repeatedly activated their rented SPOT satellite tracking device. The GEOS Emergency Response Center in Houston reported that someone in the group of four hikers – two men and their two teenaged sons – had pressed the “help” button on their SPOT unit. The coordinates for the signal placed the group in a remote section of the park, most likely on the challenging Royal Arch loop. Due to darkness and the remoteness of the location, rangers were unable to reach them via helicopter until the following morning. When found, they’d moved about a mile and a half to a water source. They declined rescue, as they’d activated the device due to their lack of water. Later that same evening, the same SPOT device was again activated, this time using the “911” button. Coordinates placed them less than a quarter mile from the spot where searchers had found them that morning. Once again, nightfall prevented a response by park helicopter, so an Arizona DPS helicopter whose crew utilized night vision goggles was brought in. They found that the members of the group were concerned about possible dehydration because the water they’d found tasted salty, but no actual emergency existed. The helicopter crew declined their request for a night evacuation, but provided them with water before departing. On the following morning, another SPOT “help” activation came in from the group. This time they were flown out by park helicopter. All four refused medical assessment or treatment. The group’s leader had reportedly hiked once at the Grand Canyon; the other adult had no Grand Canyon and very little backpacking experience. When asked what they would have done without the SPOT device, the leader stated, “We would have never attempted this hike.” The group leader was issued a citation for creating a hazardous condition (36 CFR 2.34(a)(4)). [Submitted by Brandon Torres, Canyon District Shift Supervisor]
this is what bothers me......".When asked what they would have done without the SPOT device, the leader stated, “We would have never attempted this hike.”.:eek::-? not good!!!
MintakaCat
10-22-2009, 07:19
The designers of the SPOT device forgot to account for one important element, human stupidly.
Accidentally hitting the "Help" or "911" button is one thing. As a rescuer, my response to "Oh, we are so sorry, totally accidental!" would be, "OK, but Don't let it happen again!" But these clowns did it ON PURPOSE, Three times! Without due cause! Future Darwin award winners I'm sure, sadly, they will likely take some rescuers with them. Bill Engval was wrong, it shouldn't be a sign, but a tattoo on the forehead: "STUPID"
The SPOT I saw (a VERY early model) had raised areas around the buttons, but a firm push with part of a sleeping bag would have activated it. My friend had taped coins over the buttons to prevent this from happening. The coins were easily pulled off IF he needed it.
Funny thing: his family was tracking his progress, but didn't have an AT map to compare with, he got to that stretch around Standing Indian Mt, where the AT goes South for quite a few miles, The family "Went Ballistic!" When he got to Franklin & checked in there were "Tons" of messages telling him he was going the wrong way. :D
Ratchet-SectionHiker
10-22-2009, 10:16
I have last years model of the Spot. The buttons do take a firm push, and the 911 and Help buttons must be held in for a period of time (15-30 secs if I remember the manual correctly) My wife and I only use ours to keep the mother-in-law's happy, and my father likes tracking us on Google Maps. As far as the 'help' button going directly to a SAR office, since it was a rented unit they probably did not have any emergency contacts programmed into the unit so possibly as a default it may go to the GEOS office
They must have hit the 911 button 3 times. HItting the help button doesn't connect to the GEOS center. Of course that doesn't excuse stupid people. Just a little observation.
You are correct. The media story is wrong. But the people are still stupid.
On my SPOT info page you can take a link to the False alarms with EPIRBs via the US Coast Guard. Stupid people are part of the cost of providing a signaling service such as SPOT. And SAR gets used to dealing with stupid people.
handlebar
10-22-2009, 22:04
How easy is it too accidently push that button. If my cell phone were an emergency device I'd have incurred a few false alarms myself.
I have one and it resided in the small waistpack that had my camera, swiss army knife, current maps, snacks, sun block and lip gloss. I packed it in such a way that none of those items could poke any of its buttons. It was always turned OFF unless I was sending an OK message. In addition to having to be turned on (press and hold the ON button briefly), the 911 button has to be pressed and held and it is slightly recessed. I don't see how it could happen accidentally. The newer version, besides being a little lighter, has a different design for the 911 button that prevents an accidental activation.
These people in the Grand Canyon were self-centered idiots with no regard for the risk the rescuers took. Those helicopters could have crashed responding to their "calling wolf". Perhaps, the SPOT folks should have a little quiz to see if prospective clients can tell the difference between an inconvenience and an emergency.
I carried the original version of the SPOT on my PCT hike in '08. Due to family commitments, I started way early, April 3, sobo from Walker Pass and knew I'd see almost no one on the trail for 3 weeks into Cajon Pass. I mainly got it for peace of mind and to avoid having to cut off my arm if a boulder fell on me like happened to that guy in Utah. I also bought the rescue insurance that the SPOT folks offer at a discount with the unit. I'm glad to say I've never had to use it in an emergency, but my wife and kids did enjoy keeping track of my progress when I sent my daily "I'm OK and here's where I am" message. Now I'm debating whether I'll be carrying it on the CDT next year. It's heavy (8oz.) and the darn thing will tell everyone else where you are, but it doesn't have an LED display to tell you where you are. It certainly misses the boat on the ultralight philosophy (no dual purpose here).
I had a market research questionnaire from SPOT that showed a version with an LED display, but the 2nd generation which came out a few months ago didn't include it.
ShelterLeopard
10-23-2009, 11:00
Accidentally hitting the "Help" or "911" button is one thing. As a rescuer, my response to "Oh, we are so sorry, totally accidental!" would be, "OK, but Don't let it happen again!" But these clowns did it ON PURPOSE, Three times! Without due cause! Future Darwin award winners I'm sure, sadly, they will likely take some rescuers with them. Bill Engval was wrong, it shouldn't be a sign, but a tattoo on the forehead: "STUPID"
The SPOT I saw (a VERY early model) had raised areas around the buttons, but a firm push with part of a sleeping bag would have activated it. My friend had taped coins over the buttons to prevent this from happening. The coins were easily pulled off IF he needed it.
Funny thing: his family was tracking his progress, but didn't have an AT map to compare with, he got to that stretch around Standing Indian Mt, where the AT goes South for quite a few miles, The family "Went Ballistic!" When he got to Franklin & checked in there were "Tons" of messages telling him he was going the wrong way. :D
Ha- that's really funny. I'm trying to imagin my family watching a little dot labeled me, going in circles... I've always been opposed to those tracking devices, but it would be really fun just to have some fun with it once in a while, if you did have one...
ShelterLeopard
10-23-2009, 11:03
"Imagine" not "imagin"
tlbj6142
10-23-2009, 11:20
I had a market research questionnaire from SPOT that showed a version with an LED display, but the 2nd generation which came out a few months ago didn't include it.I've often wondered why it doesn't offer that as well. It doesn't need to store way-points, or have an arrow telling me where to go. Or support geocaching, just tell me where I am now using UTM coords would be great. Though, I guess, you'd have to specify datum? Or is UTM datum independent?
I agree with Marta.
I think they ought to have been fined, arrested or taken to the nearest ER as "protocol".
Uh, sorry if that was "inconvenient".
I know APRS (amateur radio) will track you, for anyone on APRS to see.
I think I recall that an iPhone GPS software app using Google maps will track you, for family.
The GPS Tracker app http://www.instamapper.com is one.
Jonnycat
10-23-2009, 20:23
If someone activates the emergency beacon without having a bona fide emergency, they should be rendered in such a shape as to qualify for an emergency.
BlazeWalker
10-24-2009, 17:57
They should fine the hell out of them...I mean thousands of dollars. Someone who really needed help could have died because these people are idiots! Morons!
Agreed! Some people need constant supervision and should never be left alone with themselves. Now, thanks to technology, the bathroom light will always be on. Education and or fines should be the deterrent.
I do the same thing Mags on any hikes I plan with folks. I always tell them the leave time from the trailhead is 15 minutes prior to when I actually want to leave. And I will leave your butt behind too.
.
Today, I lead another hike. I said "Meet at 8:45 am..we leave promptly at 9am".
Guess what? One person showed up at 9:05 (after I left). To his credit, he realized what happened and said as such in a voice mail.
The other person sent me an e-mail saying "I was there at 9:10..where were you?"..AND she texted me at 9:25 wondering what trail I'm on. :rolleyes:
She assumed I had my cell phone during the hike..and was checking text messages. Cripe. The phone was at home. :D
The group of us on the hike had a nice time, though. :)
Cookerhiker
10-24-2009, 20:18
Until I read this thread, I never heard of SPOT and have never considered bringing any such device on hikes. If I bring my cell phone (only on long multi-day hikes), it stays off until I'm in town.
Blue Jay
10-24-2009, 20:19
The designers of the SPOT device forgot to account for one important element, human stupidly.
Actually that started with the wheel. We kill each other with that one all the time. I'm not a big fan of designers, most are apes, however there is no way for them to overcome that problem
Here is MSNBCs story on it. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33470581/ns/us_news-life/)
I really like the idea of the spot tracker. I think it gives a piece of mind to family and friends back home.
I do see the issue that brings up having it so readily available.
tlbj6142
10-26-2009, 13:01
Here is MSNBCs story on it. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33470581/ns/us_news-life/)Yuppie 911. That's a good term...
skinewmexico
10-26-2009, 15:40
Yuppie 911. That's a good term...
I predict the term "Yuppie 911" will completely replace the phrase "SPOT Messenger" in 7-1/2 hours.
sheepdog
10-26-2009, 15:51
Yuppie 911. That's a good term...
make a good tv show
earlyriser26
10-26-2009, 17:53
Hey, the water tasted "salty". I don't blame them at all. I would have sent it back too! They should have given them a choice between still and sparkling.
Yuppie 911....
I am going to work that in as many conversations as possible now....
sheepdog
10-26-2009, 19:35
Come on Wise Old Owl can you photo shop us a good yuppie 911 poster?
Wise Old Owl
10-26-2009, 19:42
Yes I can!
sheepdog
10-26-2009, 19:53
sheepdog waiting with high expectations
Surplusman
10-26-2009, 20:06
I actually considered getting a SPOT device to keep everyone at home happy when I was out in the uncharted wilds of the AT in western MA. However, a cell phone for me and some very detailed maps for the folks took care of everything. With my bum leg I can manage about 4 miles a day max...not very far at all. After reading about the abuse of SPOT, I'll keep my money and invest it in MORE hiking gear!
Rambler1
10-26-2009, 20:49
well..... I love it.....I think it's hilarious....real life, in the blood and flesh,
Peter cries wolf. They evend went 3x.
This is really great stuff.....can't make it up.
I think it should have a camera and mic to watch the action with.
Put it on the net and charge per episode...
Idiots in the Wood Season 1
Episode 1 Fake call to Rescue - opps...sorry didn't mean to.
Episode 2 Fake call to Rescue - Out of cigarettes
Episode 3 Fake call to Rescue - Out of baby wipes.
Episode 4 Fake call to Rescue - Pizza, please.
Wise Old Owl
10-26-2009, 20:54
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/gucciSpot.jpg Just warming up.....
sheepdog
10-26-2009, 20:57
a useful device
Not "Closest Nordstrum"
a Real emergency...
Closest Potty! Porcelain please!
If enough of this continues the cost of a "real rescue" may go up even more.
One day you may be in dire straits - and you will hide yourself from rescuers because it would bankrupt you.
New SPOT model out;
http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/images/easy-button.jpg
sheepdog
10-27-2009, 20:13
New SPOT model out;
http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/images/easy-button.jpg
sweet!!!.....
I don't know Ithink if there is not an emergency then the SAR folks should induce one--beat someone senseless then evacuate them nd isue citations afterwards. I agree with Mags--look for this sort fo thing more frequently.
Unfortunately as technology makes instantaneous communications easier folks are less likely to do without these sorts of devices. Heck even I have trouble walking out the door without my cell phone anymore and have actually turned the car around to go get it.
Personally I think instead of the SPOT they should rent satelite phones that only call the SAR office so they can at least attempt to assess the situation before firing up the chopper. The SPOT is great but in many cases inadequate for the general idiot on on the trail...
SPOT says "HELP", but can't say WHAT help is needed. A liability for SAR units, which this story points out quite clearly.
It clearly has limitations.
beakerman
10-29-2009, 01:22
SPOT says "HELP", but can't say WHAT help is needed. A liability for SAR units, which this story points out quite clearly.
It clearly has limitations.
hence my comment about renting sat phones rather than spots...
The beating folks senseless was meant as a joke. If they didn't understand that the HELP button was for emergency use only when the took the unit out into the field they certainly should have known it after the chopper came to them the first time so what was the emergency the second and third time?
Yes the spot has limitations and if the park service is going to require or supply emergency communications for folks in the "back country" then they can do a lot better than spot. Sat phones work just as well as the spot but you can describe the nature of the emergency and get an appropriate response. That was the point of my sarcastic post just in case it was missed...
I had never heard of SPOT either until this thread. I agree with the above, heavy fines and the spot should be able to state what the problem is and confirm a real emergency. Some of the stupidity on the Grand Canyon trails is mind boggling.
beakerman
10-30-2009, 11:43
the worst part of SPOT and other related devices is they allow people that have no business out in the wilderness to do jsut hat...go forth. These folks generally would not venture out of sight of their car normally because they don't feel safe. The have neither the skills nor mentality to prevent a serious issue or when they find thems selves in a problem tey can't get out of the jam on their own. I personally take pride in the knowledge that unless I am injured I can get myself out of just about any situation I find myself. These folks go out and becasue they know they can just hit a button and help is on the way they are going to cause more issues.