View Full Version : Marmot Helium
All, I recently purchased a Marmot Helium during REIs 25% off sale. The bag is around 400 with tax regularly priced. I was wondering how this would compare with Western Mountaineering since they are somewhat in the same category of price. I always hear rave reviews on WM but am not really sure what would put WM way above a bag like the Helium.
BlackRock
10-22-2009, 21:11
They use better quality Goose Down and have superior build quality.
That said, both bags are great. One is made in the USA, the other is turned out in the thousands from China. I can go into more detail, but that's about it.
That's a great Marmot bag and WM is a great bag company also making great bags. Leave it at that. You bought a great 15 * down sleeping bag!
eight769
10-23-2009, 04:36
They use better quality Goose Down and have superior build quality.
That said, both bags are great. One is made in the USA, the other is turned out in the thousands from China. I can go into more detail, but that's about it.
Made in China yes
But
From Marmot website:
Filled and Finished in Santa Rosa, California.
Certified 850+ Fill Goose Down The Best Weight to Warmth Down in the Market; Independently Tested and Certified by International Down and Feather Laboratory in Salt Lake City, Utah. Retested at Fill Time in Santa Rosa to Ensure 850+ Fill Power Every Time. If the Down Does Not Meet Our In-House Test, We Send It Back
Most down comes from China anyway, take your pick
eight769
10-23-2009, 04:40
oh yea forgot this is kinda cool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSOV2YN3Wcg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSOV2YN3Wcg)
I own bags from both companies and I would be hard pressed to make a distinction in quality. My bags are a WM Puma: -25, and a Marmot Helium EQ: 15. I have other bags from other companies and Marmot and WM are solid brands. With the exception of Feathered Friends, I would rate Marmot and WM near the top.
BlackRock
10-23-2009, 10:37
Made in China yes
But
From Marmot website:
Filled and Finished in Santa Rosa, California.
Certified 850+ Fill Goose Down The Best Weight to Warmth Down in the Market; Independently Tested and Certified by International Down and Feather Laboratory in Salt Lake City, Utah. Retested at Fill Time in Santa Rosa to Ensure 850+ Fill Power Every Time. If the Down Does Not Meet Our In-House Test, We Send It Back
Most down comes from China anyway, take your pick
I've got a Helium and Highlite. My Helium tore and I had to fix an entire baffle and restuff some down. In the process I got to check out the down and internal sewing of the bag.
The down is nice, but looks more like 800 fill with too many feathers for the 850 rating. The WM down looks much closer to the 900 fill that I use on my own stuff. The size of the puff balls was much larger on the Marmot as well. Overall that's not alot of difference between 800-900 but it's still there and you notice it the more down stuff you build and work with.
Oh, and while it's not related to the bag quality Marmot kills their birds for the down. Though they say it's simply because they use it from geese raised for food. Either way, you don't have to purchase down from China or even down from Geese they kill. I buy only Canadian Grey Goose Down which is certified 900 and comes from Geese raised for their down but not killed for it. I'd also guess that the down I ran into was bleached whereas what I've found in my Highlite was not.
As for the stitching, there is only so much quality you can pump out of a high throughput chinese factory. Seam allowances were poor along with the lower quality thread used. There are little things as well with stitch length, consistency, needle size used and other small design features I only see on my Highlite.
I'm not trying to bash Marmot, I already said they've got a high quality bag, I just believe that WM is one of the top bag makers out there. Heck, I own a marmot myself if that says anything. You guys just asked for an opinion and I probably have a bit of a biased one since I make and work with all the same fabrics myself.
I've torn apart alot of things and fixed half my friends bags. I've just got lots to say on the topic :)
oh yea forgot this is kinda cool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSOV2YN3Wcg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSOV2YN3Wcg)
Why the hell would I want down thats been in his mouth?
garlic08
10-23-2009, 10:54
A good friend of mine has bags from both companies of similar ratings (the Helium and a 20F WM of about the same weight) and for what it's worth, he is now a Marmot fan. He recently needed a warmer-rated bag and bought the Marmot Hydrogen.
Black Rock, that is an excellent report on quality and down sources, and great information.
BlackRock
10-23-2009, 10:59
Black Rock, that is an excellent report on quality and down sources, and great information.
Thanks. I didn't mean to bash on Marmot though. Sorry guys.
I just really get worked up over down stuff :rolleyes:
Some of the early Marmot Helium bags used 900 fill down. I got lucky and got one. It is a great bag!!
boomerang
10-23-2009, 12:38
This is a great thread. I too am trying to decide between Marmot vs WM for a 10/15 degree bag. I have a WM Highlite that I took on my thruhike and love, and that makes me lean toward WM for my colder bag. However, I have a very good REI dividend that would yield a nearly free Marmot bag for me...and reading this thread I think there probably isn't ~$400 difference between the bags. :)
thanks,
Boomerang
Sorry, I just couldn't leave it at that!
Ok a sleeping bag gearhead discussion where someone is bringing to surface some things I have not heard before. BlackRock, it seems some of these things you are telling us are finally being said after milling about your mind for way too long. Good! I like that! Someone who is passionate and knowledgable about their pursuits.
Perhaps, you would be willling to indulge me a bit: why would someone want to bleach down?, from what kind of geese is the down coming from in China? are the geese that are killed for food and down, and etc. in China endangered or threatened as a species by this practice? how does the quality of the highest quality down from the geese in China compare to the highest quality Canadian Grey Goose down? I thought there were international standards levels for down. It seems you are saying the standards are not all that standard.
I think I understand how durability MIGHT be affected, but could you also elaborate on if, and how, performance is affected by .....Seam allowances were poor along with the lower quality thread used. There are little things as well with stitch length, consistency, needle size used and other small design features I only see on my Highlite. I reposted this for another reason. I'm wondering if the design goals are exactly the same for the 15 * Marmot Helium and the 35 * Western Mountaineering Highlite. If they are not the same, then that can explain, at least in part, the use of different construction techniques and materials. What I'm getting at is that if I was a sleeping bag designer I don't think I would approach designing the lightest wt. highest quality 35 * bag the same as designing an extremely light wt. highest quality 15 * down bag. Exactly, how many different Marmot and WM models have you examined on the inside or torn apart?
I tend to agree with Birdog who says, "I own bags from both companies and I would be hard pressed to make a distinction in quality." But, I might not be as knowledgable as you and know all the signs of the highset quality things to look for. I also have not examined the contents and stitching of the inside of all my Marmot and WM bags. Mostly, the outsides.
LOL. I just believe that WM is one of the top bag makers out there. Me too!
i think if your biggest problem is deciding b/t these 2 bags your life is pretty good :D
BlackRock
10-23-2009, 17:54
I'll have to take some time on that one Dogwood, but in short here are a few things I do know.
In general a lot of Goose down with a fill power of 650 or less comes from geese that are killed for food and feathers. What sort of conditions they live in or whether they'd be killed for food if we didn't want their feathers isn't known to me. I don't have a percentage, but PETA and other animal rights groups will agree with this and say you've got a better chance at getting hand picked down thats 750 fill or better.
Asian geese from what I know are technically called Anser Cygenoides and are usually either brown or white. I'm pretty sure they aren't endangered either.
Higher quality hand picked down will many times be called "White" when in fact there are alot of clusters of brown/grey down. As the geese mature their feathers many times will change color. It's not anything bad and most times it means your getting fluffier nicer down. What I have found though is there is some down that is very white... Too white actually... It appears that some companies do in fact wash and bleach their down to make it whiter and more appealing. Stupid if you ask me when all the down we every deal with is inside of something like a hat :)
Anyway, I've got to run. Lots to talk about and not enough time. I'll see what I can dig up. I ran into a guy a year ago down in Yosemite that worked for a facility in Utah who knew everything there was to know about down. I'll hit him up for some more info if I can find his email.
I have a helium and also a WM versalite and summerlite. I bought the helium for I think $280 about a year ago figuring it would be good enough for high 20's and 30's, plus it was a little bit bigger inside which I thought would be nice. Also, my summerlite is cut pretty tight like the the WM ultralite 20 degree bag and I thought I'd like the bigger cut of the helium. The helium doesn't have a down collar and the WM ultralite does have a down collar. I just got back from hiking near Franklin, NC, and it got down to 29 degrees and I was using the helium. Based on comparison of the versalite and the helium, I am estimating performance of a WM ultralite versus a helium. I think if both bags are sealed up where you are using just a blowhole to breathe through, the performance of the two will be similar. If you do something less and have the Helium hood loose on your head for side sleeping or comfort, you'll notice the lack of a down collar. I noticed the air leaking down into the helium and really couldn't get completely warm until wrapping a shirt around my neck to create a collar. The helium also felt pretty darn big and I could tell I had a lot of room to heat up. I'm 6" and 175 pounds. On a winter hike using my versalite, I was able to stay warm in the high teens sidesleeping with the hood loose on my head. My hiking partner on that trip had a WM alpinlite (bigger cut version of the WM ultralite) and he said he was felt warm all nite. I'm a gear nut and probably have too much spare cash so I've got a bag for every sort of weather plus a couple of JRB quilts and the helium fills one nitch. If you're going to have one or two bags, I advise WM ultralite or alpinlite for the greater flexibility of having a down collar. I thought the collar wasn't that big a deal until I didn't have one. Today, I think the collar is worth the extra 100 bux, you may have to pay. Plus, I'd probably be better off with the smaller cut.
juma
I have a helium and also a WM versalite and summerlite. I bought the helium for I think $280 about a year ago figuring it would be good enough for high 20's and 30's, plus it was a little bit bigger inside which I thought would be nice. Also, my summerlite is cut pretty tight like the the WM ultralite 20 degree bag and I thought I'd like the bigger cut of the helium. The helium doesn't have a down collar and the WM ultralite does have a down collar. I just got back from hiking near Franklin, NC, and it got down to 29 degrees and I was using the helium. Based on comparison of the versalite and the helium, I am estimating performance of a WM ultralite versus a helium. I think if both bags are sealed up where you are using just a blowhole to breathe through, the performance of the two will be similar. If you do something less and have the Helium hood loose on your head for side sleeping or comfort, you'll notice the lack of a down collar. I noticed the air leaking down into the helium and really couldn't get completely warm until wrapping a shirt around my neck to create a collar. The helium also felt pretty darn big and I could tell I had a lot of room to heat up. I'm 6" and 175 pounds. On a winter hike using my versalite, I was able to stay warm in the high teens sidesleeping with the hood loose on my head. My hiking partner on that trip had a WM alpinlite (bigger cut version of the WM ultralite) and he said he was felt warm all nite. I'm a gear nut and probably have too much spare cash so I've got a bag for every sort of weather plus a couple of JRB quilts and the helium fills one nitch. If you're going to have one or two bags, I advise WM ultralite or alpinlite for the greater flexibility of having a down collar. I thought the collar wasn't that big a deal until I didn't have one. Today, I think the collar is worth the extra 100 bux, you may have to pay. Plus, I'd probably be better off with the smaller cut.
juma
Clarification - I meant to say my hiking partner on the recent Franklin, NC, trip rather than the earlier winter hike last year.
Jayboflavin04
10-24-2009, 09:20
I heard a pod cast with the owner of WM....And even he cringes at the "fill power" rating. I believe you will never ever see a WM bag with anything other than a 850 fill power rating. The owner claims this is a numbers game. They condition the down soooo much to recieve a certain number. I guess he gets upset at companies offering 900+ numbers....Even posted in there website is there is an 80 point variance in testing. Not bad mouthing either WM or Marmot....just a tid bit of info for the consumer. If someone is offering a bag with huge numbers....do your research. I love my ultralight by the way.
Just a point I have never seen a WM advertisement any were.....And if that is the case. Any company that is successful without/minimal advertisement. Has to be doing something right.
Jayboflavin04
10-24-2009, 09:27
Wanted to post this from the WM website. Like I said. This is for anyone out there considering spending big dollars on a down bag/vest/jacket ect. The fill rating is a number not to be taken as a "fact" number.
Fill Power Testing
To perform a certified test, a sample of down is sent to an independent laboratory. There the sample is placed in a large screened box and allowed to condition for 5 days before being tested. During this time the sample is stirred, mixed, and blown with a warm hair dryer. This conditioning is intended to stabilize the sample so that consistent results may be obtained. Then a 1 ounce sample is drawn and placed into a measuring cylinder. A piston weighted to 68.4 grams is placed on top of the down and when it comes to rest the volume of the down is measured in cubic inches. In spite of 5 days of conditioning, the laboratory will publish their results with a plus or minus 5% error. This is a full 10% range and for an 850 fill test, results in an 80 point variance! Furthermore, conditioning actually improves the sample by drying and blowing out dust and other small particles while the down at the factory remains unconditioned! This is what we mean by an Optimistic fill power rather than a Practical fill power rating.