View Full Version : General Great Smoky Mountain information and misinformation
For non thru hikers:
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm
Backpackers and hikers are subject to all Backcountry Rules and Regulations. Failure to abide by park regulations may subject you to a fine under Title 36, Code of Federal Regulations. Maximum fine for each violation is $5,000 and/or 6 months in jail.
Backcountry Rules and Regulations
1. You must possess a backcountry permit (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-camping.htm) while camping in the backcountry.
2. Camping is permitted only at designated sites and shelters.
3. Use of reserved sites and shelters (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-camping.htm) must be confirmed through the Backcountry Reservation Office.
4. You may stay up to three consecutive nights at a site. You may not stay two nights in a row at a shelter.
5. Maximum camping party size is eight persons.
6. Open fires are prohibited except at designated sites. Use only wood that is dead and on the ground. Use only established fire rings.
7. The use of tents at shelters is prohibited.
8. Food storage: When not being consumed or transported, all food and trash must be suspended at least 10 feet off the ground and four feet from the nearest limb or trunk, or shall be stored as otherwise designated.
9. Toilet use must be at least 100 feet from a campsite or water source and out of sight of the trail. Human feces must be buried in a six-inch-deep hole.
10. All trash must be carried out.
11. All plants, wildlife, and natural and historic features are protected by law. Do not carve, deface, or cut any trees or shrubs.
12. Polluting park waters is prohibited. Do not wash dishes or bathe with soap in a stream.
13. Pets, motorized vehicles, and bicycles are not permitted in the backcountry.
kayak karl
10-24-2009, 13:53
Please don't bring a tent thinking you can always set up outside the shelter.
carrying no tent or shelter is foolish:D. im to count on the people that don't answer their phone. TY, but i'd rather be prepared.
any backpacker worth their sweat will carry a shelter for emergency use, regardless of park regs.
ChinMusic
10-24-2009, 14:19
If you have reservations at the shelters, even if the shelter is full when you get there, you have a right to a spot. Please don't bring a tent thinking you can always set up outside the shelter. It is extra weight and it is against the rules of regs of the Park.
There are rules and then there are "rules".
I'm carrying a shelter even if I have a reservatioin.....PERIOD.
Picture the position the Park is putting the section hiker with a permit in. You've had a LONG day. You get to the shelter after dark. The shelter is full of comfortable soles all snug in their bags. There ain't no room.
Are you suppose to wake everyone up and ask for permits? PALLEEEEEZE
I would set up my tent, and if questioned by authority, make my case, and pay the stupid fine if they are jerks about it.
I'm NOT waking everyone up.
Stuff like this is why so many complain about the GSMNP. It doesn't have to be this way.
Carry your own shelter, that is basic common backcountry sense.
Also, a ridge-runner has no authority, (granted they have contact with those who do) to hike someone out in the middle of the night, in fact that would be down right stupid, and an extremely high liability risk. One simple ankle twist and a good attorney would show them the stupidity of this policy, especially if the hiker did have a permit, but the shelter was full on their arrival.
Final point, not all shelters have yet been remodeled, Russel Field at least still has chain-link fencing. Just calls into question how much of an authority this person really is. Perhaps their knowledge is more in their own mind than fact.
Rockhound
10-24-2009, 14:39
So if you want to tent in GSMNP. get one of those permits at Fontana or Hot Springs that you fill out yourself and if questioned just say you are a thruhiker. Got it. I have to wonder, if they are so concerned about preserving the land and beauty up there, why are there no privies? Instead you have to take your chances in the minefields up there. They just took the time and money to refurbish all the shelters but still no privies. I think GSMNP could learn a thing or two from how they do things in the Whites. If need be start charging a few bucks a night at the shelters to help pay for it instead of having feces spread out all over the place. correct me if I'm wrong but this also attracts bears, no?
kayak karl
10-24-2009, 14:43
believe it or not this guys company has good yuppie reviews. http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g60842-d273813-Reviews-or10-A_Walk_in_the_Woods-Gatlinburg_Tennessee.html#REVIEWS very original name:D
Cookerhiker
10-24-2009, 14:44
One thing I've been confused about re permits in the Smokies. I understand about the 50 mile rule defining thruhikers and how non-thruhikers must have reservations. What I don't understand is what happens (as probably often does in the Spring) when say 20 legitimate bonafide thruhikers show up at a shelter which sleeps 12 and may also include 3-4 non-thrus with reservations? Is the 13th person supposed to move on to the next shelter, even if it's 10 miles ahead and dark? And suppose the next shelter is also full?
I agree with all the other posters that hikers must carry tents/hammocks/tarps/ whatever as at least an emergency backup - it would be irresponsible not to do so.
Rain Man
10-24-2009, 14:51
Sorry to see a couple of the posts already. We're told to LIE about being thru-hikers, and we're also told if LEO enforce the laws, they are being "jerks."
Fortunately, most WBers have more character!
Don't act superior to the quite reasonable rules the GSMNP folks have in place, and to other hikers who obey the rules. Don't denigrate the GSMNP folks if they enforce them based on your convenience (or not).
Rather sad attitudes in my opinion.
Rain Man
.
ChinMusic
10-24-2009, 15:01
Sorry to see a couple of the posts already. We're told to LIE about being thru-hikers, and we're also told if LEO enforce the laws, they are being "jerks."
Fortunately, most WBers have more character!
Instead of just complaining about (me) calling someone a jerk for the situation I posted......answer the question. Actually give the situation some thought.
Should that section hike, with permit, ask all those sleeping in the full shelter for permits, should they arrive at the shelter after dark and everyone is asleep? If no one owns up, then what? Call for Mommy?
I know you can do it.
max patch
10-24-2009, 15:03
One thing I've been confused about re permits in the Smokies. I understand about the 50 mile rule defining thruhikers and how non-thruhikers must have reservations. What I don't understand is what happens (as probably often does in the Spring) when say 20 legitimate bonafide thruhikers show up at a shelter which sleeps 12 and may also include 3-4 non-thrus with reservations? Is the 13th person supposed to move on to the next shelter, even if it's 10 miles ahead and dark? And suppose the next shelter is also full?
I agree with all the other posters that hikers must carry tents/hammocks/tarps/ whatever as at least an emergency backup - it would be irresponsible not to do so.
Camp within view of the shelter.
Rockhound
10-24-2009, 15:08
The only times I've stayed in GSMNP i was in compliance with the 50 mile rule. I see my sarcastic humor went over someones head. I stand by my privy opinion however. Start charging a few bucks and install composting privies rather than have **** spread out all over the place. At 9 million visitors a year I don't figure it would take too long to raise the necessary funds.
icemanat95
10-24-2009, 15:08
Sorry to see a couple of the posts already. We're told to LIE about being thru-hikers, and we're also told if LEO enforce the laws, they are being "jerks."
Fortunately, most WBers have more character!
Don't act superior to the quite reasonable rules the GSMNP folks have in place, and to other hikers who obey the rules. Don't denigrate the GSMNP folks if they enforce them based on your convenience (or not).
Rather sad attitudes in my opinion.
Rain Man
.
Rain Man, A lot of thru-hikers tend to be anti-authority, anti-rules...at least in so far as they apply to them. There can also be a sense of entitlement among thrus that cannot be justified, and is why a lot of other hikers think of thru-hikers as prima donas. I remember this all to well, and with some shame from my own thru-hiking days....before I realized that the only thing that makes a thru-hiker "special" is that they have enough free time to spend 6 months on vacation.
As you said however, most White Blaze folks have more sense than that.
Rockhound
10-24-2009, 15:12
If they are thru-hiking they can camp (when the shelter is full) so there is no reason for the holier than thou crowd to get their panties in a wad.
Procras108r
10-24-2009, 15:16
What are the requirements for a thru hiker using a hammock?
I realize that I will not need to make a reservation for a shelter space. But since the hammock does not have a footprint or damage any ground flora, I wonder if I am allowed to set it up in the park. Of course, this means that I would have to set up the hammock in the picnic areas because the foot traffic has already damaged any plant life.
Please forgive my ignorance. I am a newbie to the site and to hiking, but I enjoy your advice.
Cookerhiker
10-24-2009, 15:55
The only times I've stayed in GSMNP i was in compliance with the 50 mile rule. I see my sarcastic humor went over someones head. I stand by my privy opinion however. Start charging a few bucks and install composting privies rather than have **** spread out all over the place. At 9 million visitors a year I don't figure it would take too long to raise the necessary funds.
I agree with you re the privies being more ecologically sound but surely you're aware that of the 9 million visitors, the vast majority stick to their cars on the main i.e. paved roads and only leave their vehicles at Newfound Gap and (maybe) Clingman's Dome. Now I'm not an expert or experienced on the Smokies but I hiked there last week. In the backcountry, I saw maybe 12 people in 3 days but driving afterwards across Newfound Gap, there were hordes.
Any funds raised from charging the 9 million will be spent commensurate from where the money came from meaning road and VC improvements and perhaps Park staff, but not backcountry needs. And fees in GSMNP will never happen at this point - the politicians won't allow it and Rt. 441 is a public highway.
It shouldn't be that way but it is.
Take a shelter!!!! As stated: Not doing so is IRRESPONSIBLE in the extreme, for the reasons mentioned. I have been at the MtCollins shelter where 4 HAD TO camp out (3 tents), and as mentioned above, permits or not, it didn't matter cause it's a 7.5 mile hike south to a shelter (that was also full that night) or similar miles to the north, also possibly full on that cold & rainy night.
"Don't take a tent" has got to be the WORST advice I have ever seen here!!!
One thing I've been confused about re permits in the Smokies. .
Camp within view of the shelter.
What he said. I think it was "visual line of sight."
Any funds raised from charging the 9 million will be spent commensurate from where the money came from meaning road and VC improvements and perhaps Park staff, but not backcountry needs. And fees in GSMNP will never happen at this point - the politicians won't allow it and Rt. 441 is a public highway.
It shouldn't be that way but it is.
Some issues with entry fees there and some of the original deeds to the park. If some other mechanism were found, I assure you national parks like to build buildings and trails near buildings. They also like shiny new cars and trucks.
....I have to wonder, if they are so concerned about preserving the land and beauty up there, why are there no privies? Instead you have to take your chances in the minefields up there. They just took the time and money to refurbish all the shelters but still no privies. I think GSMNP could learn a thing or two from how they do things in the Whites. If need be start charging a few bucks a night at the shelters to help pay for it instead of having feces spread out all over the place. correct me if I'm wrong but this also attracts bears, no?
I agree 100 percent. It's totally irresponsible not to have privies at the GSMNP shelters. The argument is that the soils are not suitable. I think bureaucratic laziness and inertia are more likely. If MATC working in Maine can find suitable soils for privies among the eroded rocks left by glaciers, surely there are suitable privy locations among the deep soils of the south.
Weary
...... The backcountry office number is 865-436-1231 or 865-436-1297. The phone may be busy during peak season, but keep trying.
OUCH!!! My head still hurts from snapping back due to the spontaneous laughter. The only telephone number harder to get people to answer is the DMV.
BTW, My tent does just fine in stealth mode thank you very much.............
max patch
10-24-2009, 17:42
What are the requirements for a thru hiker using a hammock?
No special privleges. Same rules as a tenters.
pafarmboy
10-24-2009, 18:12
It's totally irresponsible not to have privies at the GSMNP shelters.
I stayed at Spence Field, Double Springs and TriCorner shelters this summer and all three had privies. Not sure why people are saying there arent any.
ChinMusic
10-24-2009, 18:15
I stayed at Spence Field, Double Springs and TriCorner shelters this summer and all three had privies. Not sure why people are saying there arent any.
I was thinking the same thing. When nature called a privy was always near.....lucky I guess.
GeneralLee10
10-24-2009, 18:17
I mean come on who is this person telling people Not to carry a shelter? If someone was to listen to what he/she says and dies/gets injured does this make him responsible for there death/injury? And as far as the Privy goes all soil is feasible to use. If not then why are they letting people poo on the surface? What does this preserve if anything it makes "there" land look nasty and littered with TP. Your a guide and your telling people Not to carry a Shelter you should be ashamed of yourself. I would never recommend your services to anyone. As a guide your First concern should ALWAYS be Safety of the persons with you.
Wise Old Owl
10-24-2009, 19:15
What are the requirements for a thru hiker using a hammock?
I realize that I will not need to make a reservation for a shelter space. But since the hammock does not have a footprint or damage any ground flora, I wonder if I am allowed to set it up in the park. Of course, this means that I would have to set up the hammock in the picnic areas because the foot traffic has already damaged any plant life.
Please forgive my ignorance. I am a newbie to the site and to hiking, but I enjoy your advice.
U & I had the same thought - only steath camping off the trail is the answer ask.....
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/yoda.jpg
Well I hike the Smoky's almost twice a month in an average year. Yes, there are some rules that need to be re-thought. Yes, there are shelters without privies. Yes, there has been some backlash over thru-hiker "rights". Basically a thru can, and sometimes does, bump a non-thru from a shelter due to overcrowding. I have never personally witnessed this but I have friends who have. Most of the experiences I have had in overcrowded shelters was very positive: we all pitched in and made room, shared food, and generally had a great experience. However, it will be cold day in hell before the park changes anything as far as their policy is concerned because the Park receives 9 MILLION visitors annually. There are just too many people to try and accommodate every wish. We do what we can and maybe through forums like this the Park Service will consider some needed changes. Happy hiking
Jack Tarlin
10-24-2009, 19:46
It has been my understanding for many years that long-distance and thru-hikers are permitted to tent camp immediately adjacent to shelters in GSMNP if the shelters are full.
This has been the policy for many years, and I have done this myself or something like fifteen years, and NEVER had a problem with doing so.
Long-distance and thru-hikers should absolutely carry a tent or shelter when visiting or passing thru the Park, and in truth, I think other folks should do likewise.
Maybe the original poster meant to have titled his / her post: General Great Smoky Mountain misinformation. :p
The ONLY back country "shelter" I likely wouldn't take a shelter is Mt Lecont, but it is a lodge & you MUST make reservations & stuff like going to a motel. They don't accept walk in guests. But, maybe I would "just in case" even then.
Also, as mentioned, the Vast Majority of the 9 Million visitors to GSMNP rarely leave the road. So I don't know where this person guides people, but I think not on any of the trails I have been on, & a few of them are minimally used.
Maybe the guiding is done in his/her imagination or in some alternate dimension.
As for bears, the Park has 2 bears per square miles in the Park, the highest density in all of North America. They are in their most wild and natural state which is evidenced by their fear of humans. They will start to come around if they get habituated to our food and trash. If you pack out trash (don't burn it, food smells attract bears), are careful with your meals, and don't eat near your bedding, you will be fine. If a bear has become habituated to humans, they will lose their fear and can become dangerous over time both to us and to themselves. A bear who becomes habituated will die within a year.
Seems to me you have it backwards. Bears in the Smokys are far less fearful of humans than black bears in the surrounding National Forests of NC, Tenn. and GA because they are protected from hunting and have close interactions with lots of humans that are not a threat to them. The move to take down the fences on shelters is a good move, IMO. It forces the humans and bears to co-exist without the reverse zoo mentality of the fenced shelter.
The ONLY back country "shelter" I likely wouldn't take a shelter is Mt Lecont, but it is a lodge & you MUST make reservations & stuff like going to a motel. They don't accept walk in guests. But, maybe I would "just in case" even then. Mt. LeConte has a backcountry shelter that has nothing to do with the Lodge. I still always bring extra shelter when using that shelter because LeConte is at least 5.5 tough miles from the nearest exit and in winter it can get nasty up there at 6500'.
"Don't take a tent" has got to be the WORST advice I have ever seen here!!!
No one said don't take a tent, they said don't take a tent expecting to camp since permits are needed for sheltrs and there's 4 spots held for thru-hikers. If the shelter is not full you're required to stay in the shelter. Only if it's full are you allowed to tent. No tenting otherwise.
No one said don't take a tent, they said don't take a tent expecting to camp since permits are needed for sheltrs and there's 4 spots held for thru-hikers. If the shelter is not full you're required to stay in the shelter. Only if it's full are you allowed to tent. No tenting otherwise.
Well they certainly implied not to bring a tent:
"Please don't bring a tent thinking you can always set up outside the shelter. It is extra weight and it is against the rules of regs of the Park."
This is bad advice no matter what the regulations are and how strictly you plan to abide by them. They give no consideration to the possibility of needing to make an emergency camp between shelters.
.......Please don't bring a tent thinking you can always set up outside the shelter. It is extra weight and it is against the rules of regs of the Park....... Worst.......advice.......ever.......:rolleyes:
Thin Mint
10-24-2009, 21:54
In other news, Clingman's Dome road will be closed through the end of May, so beware of that when making your 2010 plans.
I was under the impression that Clingman's Dome Road is only closed through the end of March (unless weather requires). Do you know something we don't? I only ask because I will most likely come off the trail at Clingman's or Newfound Gap in April to visit home.
max patch
10-24-2009, 22:04
I was under the impression that Clingman's Dome Road is only closed through the end of March (unless weather requires). Do you know something we don't? I only ask because I will most likely come off the trail at Clingman's or Newfound Gap in April to visit home.
Repaving...
ChinMusic
10-24-2009, 22:06
Repaving...
I was just on that road in May. Seemed fine.
Cabin Fever
10-24-2009, 22:09
I agree 100 percent. It's totally irresponsible not to have privies at the GSMNP shelters. The argument is that the soils are not suitable. I think bureaucratic laziness and inertia are more likely. If MATC working in Maine can find suitable soils for privies among the eroded rocks left by glaciers, surely there are suitable privy locations among the deep soils of the south.
Weary
And what about the logistics of getting to the shelters and maintaining the privies?
It seems to me :"Please don't bring a tent thinking you can always set up outside the shelter. It is extra weight and it is against the rules of regs of the Park." Says to NOT bring a tent. The little side note implying you are bringing it expecting to use it every night is just smoke, to me the words "Please don't bring a tent" & "its just extra weight" were the heart of the matter!!! Aside from the very real possibility of the shelter being full, what if the d****d thing burned down Friday, & you show up late Saturday in a rain storm? Fire doesn't care if you had a reservation! It HAS happened to shelters on the AT why not in the Smokies? And, the Mt Collins Shelter got missed being hit by a massive tree by about 2 feet, in fact a sizable branch hit the roof, what if it had hit dead center? Falling trees also don't care if you had a reservation.
I'm just saying that telling (or implying) anyone to not bring shelter into a "wilderness situation" is remarkably stupid.
If Vesna wants to leave the tent at home & hope to sleep inside cause he/she has a reservation that is fine. But don't present yourself as an "Expert" & tell others to do so. As an example: I haven't used any water treatment in over 2 years, but I would NEVER recommend anyone else do that, let alone say "Leave your water treatment at home, It's too much weight and only wussies treat water." yea, I do mention how I do it if asked, but I always say they should treat!
Rockhound
10-24-2009, 22:58
And what about the logistics of getting to the shelters and maintaining the privies?
They don't seem to have a problem with this in the Whites. Seems like those in GSMNP just like to make excuses as to why this can't be done rather than exploring ways it can be done.
EAnderson
10-24-2009, 23:06
My hike this week from NF gap to Cosby is an example of how some people don't follow basic rules, and the results can cause problems. We hiked from Newfound Gap to Tricorner. There were 16 people in a 12 person shelter, and only 7 of us had reservations. None of the other 9 were thru-hikers. This was OK as we were all friendly and all made room, but not everyone hung up their packs. One pack was left beside the shelter with gatoraid and food still in it. Around 9:00pm we heard a loud pounding on the roof. We discovered a bear was on the roof of the shelter having found the pack and having dragged it up to rummage through it. It slid off the roof with a thud after it tried to walk on the snow that was still on top of the shelter. We ran it off only to have it return and poke its head in past the tarp. It was run off for a second time. At one point someone asked if all of the food had been hung up, and unfortunately (but not surprisingly) one person had left food in their pack that was still hung up in the shelter. The bear came back one more time (atleast while I was awake) and showed little fear of us. This human error could cause the shelter to be closed until the bear leaves the area, or worse force the NPS to put down the bear.
As to reservations and camping, the rules seem clear that only thru-hikers can tent or hammock close the shelters, and only when the shelters are full. Backcountry holds 4 spots back for thru-hikers, so 8 spots (assuming a 12 person shelter) are available during the thru-hiking season for other hikers. Those 8 people must have reservations, and as such, can not be bumped from a shelter. They can bump thru-hikers from a shelter if there are more than 4 thru-hikers in the shelter when they arrive and they need the space. Now, as we did not know at the time who had reservations and who didn't, we weren't going to worry since everyone was cool, and made space. But if a ranger had come by and checked, they could have forced those other guys to leave in the middle of the night. It would have been a long hike down from Tricorner in the dark.
Now if a non thru-hiker feels they need a tent in case of an emergency, then I won't criticize them for making a prudent safety judgment. But I don't think this means they should set up their tents just because they don't want to sleep in the shelter. If you want to tent camp on the AT in the Smokies, start 50 miles out of the park to qualify as a thru-hiker, hike in April when the the trail is busy, and arrive late every evening at the shelter when it is full.
I will say we used a Walk in the Woods for our shuttle and they were prompt and professional.
As far as fences at the shelters, Russell Field, Laurel Gap (BMT) and Davenport Gap are the only shelters that have not been renovated. Russell is still closed due to bears. Mt. Collins was just finished, and I hear it is really nice. The guys who have working on the renovations have done a great job.
(http://www.awalkinthewoods.com)
ChinMusic
10-24-2009, 23:29
This is just what gives so many AT hikers a bad name and a bad reputation.
And "experts" get a bad reputation when the imply not bringing a shelter while in the GSMNP....or anywhere.
Please don't bring a tent thinking you can always set up outside the shelter. It is extra weight and it is against the rules of regs of the Park.
If that doesn't imply not to bring a shelter it is VERY poorly worded.
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm
You are still blurring fact and fiction.
And as to why people hire us. They do so to learn how to backpack the right way, using Leave no Trace ethics, non lethal bear aversion techniques, have respect and understanding for the eco system and the natural world and what to pack and not to pack, as well as basic survival skills in case of problems, including how to set up an emergancy shelter using a backpacking tarp in case of injury. We have backpacking 101 courses, two night trips, family trips and several REI Adventure AT trips through the Smokies. We also provide shuttle service, resupply, rent gear and do trip planning through the Park. We even give AT thru hikers a discount, even the not so kind ones:)
And adopt a very superior attitude.
DaveJohns
10-24-2009, 23:35
Hi,
In other news, Clingman's Dome road will be closed through the end of May, so beware of that when making your 2010 plans.
Huh? The AT trail is closed? How do you close a walking trail? what does this do to the folks who leave Springer in February? Time for a little research, methinks...
DaveJohns
10-24-2009, 23:44
ignore my previous post. Speed reading FTL
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/temproadclose.htm
Me thinks they are talking about the road the the tourist take to Clingmans dome not the trail????
Vesna, :welcome to WhiteBlaze!
ChinMusic
10-24-2009, 23:52
Me thinks they are talking about the road the the tourist take to Clingmans dome not the trail????
And that would be important to know if someone was planning on hitching into G from Clingmans. Now you have to get to NFG.
Yes, the road from Newfound Gap to Clingman's Dome will be closed through the end of May. That will make for very nice and quiet hiking on that 7 mile section.
sliderule
10-25-2009, 00:40
"Don't take a tent" has got to be the WORST advice I have ever seen here!!!
In 35+ years of hiking in the Smokies, I have never been denied space in a shelter at which I had a reservation. Nor have I ever carried a tent. Nor do I intend to.
sliderule
10-25-2009, 00:52
Russell Field, Laurel Gap (BMT) and Davenport Gap are the only shelters that have not been renovated.
Davenport Gap was, in fact, the first shelter to be renovated. The decision to eliminate the fences was made the following year, during the Icewater Springs shelter renovation. At Icewater, the new fence was actually airlifted in, but not installed. (I still wonder what happened to that big roll of chain link.)
sliderule
10-25-2009, 01:19
I did not post this to be attacked. I did so to give information and to dispell misinformation.
WhiteBlaze seems to attract a disproportionate number of folks who lack the capability to recognize the correct answer when told. The high level of misinformation provided in response to your original post is a testament to that thesis.
ChinMusic
10-25-2009, 01:29
The high level of misinformation provided in response to your original post is a testament to that thesis.
Please list.
The information on White Blaze is generally dead-on spot and if not, is corrected by someone immediately.
The criticism of being told not carrying a shelter is solid, even though is something YOU thinks is just fine. You will find that your choice of not carrying a shelter will be nearly unanimously denounced and rightly so.
sliderule
10-25-2009, 02:01
You will find that your choice of not carrying a shelter will be nearly unanimously denounced and rightly so.
I never made any statement whatsoever about any choice to carry or not carry "a shelter." Your assertion that I did places you squarely in the aforementioned category of folks who just cannot seem to "connect the dots."
sliderule
10-25-2009, 02:05
Speaking of misinformation, why is this sub-forum entitled "Great Smoky Mountains National Park?"
DaveJohns
10-25-2009, 02:14
1. I appreciate the info on the parks' procedures and regulations. Some I knew, some I had heard about, some was passed on later in the thread.
2. I think most of the posters took offence about the supposed "dont take shelter" bit.
3. Aside from that, this thread is finished. Send in the turtles.
ChinMusic
10-25-2009, 02:39
2. I think most of the posters took offence about the supposed "dont take shelter" bit..
yep, and those being "cute" about saying they "don't bring a tent" without mentioning that they bring a tarp. The intentional deception over such an important safety issue is disgraceful.
earlyriser26
10-25-2009, 08:41
I have hiked the smokies 7 times and always bring a tent. Most the time I stayed in shelters ( a rarity for me), but sometimes YOU MUST TENT! When the shelter is full there is no other choice. The only choice is, who is going to tent. I'm not checking for permits either. The people without permits were probably too stupid to bring their own tents.
sliderule
10-25-2009, 09:51
yep, and those being "cute" about saying they "don't bring a tent" without mentioning that they bring a tarp. The intentional deception over such an important safety issue is disgraceful.
Here is the original statement:
Please don't bring a tent thinking you can always set up outside the shelter. It is extra weight and it is against the rules of regs of the Park.
It its crystal-clear to me that "don't bring a tent" was immediately translated to "don't carry shelter" by a bunch of two-bit yahoos who were attempting to discredit the OP by sensationalizing the issue. The OP made an incredibly relevant point which was a bit too sophisticated for much of this audience.
Bulldawg
10-25-2009, 10:03
The entire thing sounds like a guide trying to hock his services to me. Just my .02.5 cents worth!
In 35+ years of hiking in the Smokies, I have never been denied space in a shelter at which I had a reservation. Nor have I ever carried a tent. Nor do I intend to.
Yes, but do you go around telling others, especially new hikers not to carry a tent, or is that just YOUR choice like me not treating water?
My point is: "Hi I run a guide service (I'm an Expert), don't take a tent on the AT in the Smokies" Is what was presented.
Now V is backpedaling & saying "Oh, I take a tarp just in case" BUT that is NOT what was originally said. :mad:
I have noted the name of the guide service for future avoidance!! So some good has come of this post.
I'm done with this post. And "V" has been placed on ignore (at least i choose to ignore it) so I need see no more posts like this.
sliderule
10-25-2009, 10:09
Basically a thru can, and sometimes does, bump a non-thru from a shelter due to overcrowding.
Here is a great example of "failing to recognize the correct answer when told." Please tell us what rule empowers a thru hiker with "bumping" authority.
Rockhound
10-25-2009, 10:11
This is just what gives so many AT hikers a bad name and a bad reputation. Of the 9 million visitors a year who go through the Park, a million hike the trails. Roughly 100,000 backpack and half of those do the AT. Can you imagine how impactful it would be if everyone outlawed and had the above disdain for the Park that so many folks have shown?
We don't have an entrance fee in the Park and most of our funding comes from donations. Sadly, most of that money goes to traffic control. The AT is in the Park but under a partnership with the ATC so the ATC is responsible or not for privies, the Park does not have the money to maintain that or to empty and care for the privies.
There will never be an entrance fee because it was mandated in the original charter when it became a Park not to charge. We get 6 million more visitors a year than Grand Canyon yet have 1/3 of their funding.
As for our name and reputation, A Walk in the Woods. We started our company 6 months before the book came out. Original name, yes. We have also taken over 40,000 people safely through the Smokies, following the rules of the Park. We do this for a living because we love the Smokies and would hope that those who visit this amazing place would treat it with respect.
As for outlawying. Obviously you will do this no matter what is said to you. Many of my groups who have hiked in with me have been turned off to the idea of the AT because of just those attitudes. It gives the AT a bad name and thru hikers have a negative reputation overall because a few folks have a sense of entitlement.
I always carry a tarp in case of emergancy. That is a no brainer. Our guides are WFA trained and have earned our reputation because of our perfect safety record. However, telling people on these sites to go ahead and set up a tent against Park rules and regs is irresponsible as well as illegal. The ridge runners do have authority as well as the Park law enforcement. I have been in shelters when folks have been hiked out in the middle of the night as well as recieve a heavy fine.
I did not post this to be attacked. I did so to give information and to dispell misinformation. And you are right, Russel is the last shelter to be renovated. It has been closed since March because a bunch of hikers were feeding bears through the chain link fence. One bear was put down as a result.
Vesna Plakanis
Owner of A Walk in the Woods
www.awalkinthewoods.com (http://www.awalkinthewoods.com)
I've seen or heard of weekenders and spring breakers litter, break glass, contaminate water sources,(washing dishes, going to the bathroom) camp unprepared (cotton, jeans,etc in March) feed/bait bears (Sharktooth is the 1 thru-hiker I've heard thats done this) yet you and others want to lay all the blame on thru-hikers because they wish to pitch a tent just outside the shelters. 2000 to 2500 thru-hikers hike the AT corridor through the Smokies each year. By your own numbers that leaves 47,250 other non thru-hikers doing the same yet you're placing all the blame on the thru-hikers because they pitch tents in an area that will receive lots of foot traffic regardless of wether they camp there or not. Thru-hikers are not the problem. On the whole they have a great respect for their surroundings, don't litter, burry their crap,and although they commit the horrible, unforgivable sin of pitching a tent outside of a shelter, they have far less of an impact than the thousands of others using the A.T. corridor in the park each year. As others have mentioned your advice of not carrying a shelter is just sheer stupidity. If there is room in the shelters each of the 4 to 6 nights they are there great. But what if there isn't? As far as suggesting they install privies that would greatly reduce the impact on the land. It seems you illustrate what I said in an earlier post that those in charge look for excuses rather than solutions. If everyone who visited donated just $1(car or on foot) that would raise more than enough money to have a privy at every shelter in the park (not just along the A.T.) and I don't think anyone would complain about $1. but you seem tho align yourself with the other excuse makers saying "it was mandated" "it's the way it's always been" "it can't be changed" this is just negative thinking. Again I say take a lesson from the White Mountains. It is the best maintained/pristine section of the entire trail, they have privies at every campsite/hut. Just because something has always been a certain way does not make it right. It can and must be changed
Jack Tarlin
10-25-2009, 10:29
Good post above, tho I'd disagree on a few points. While the White Mountain sections are indeed well maintained, I think the Trail sinage and blazing could be better in some places. And as has been frequently discussed here on Whiteblaze, I wish there were more campsites or shelters for folks who neither can afford nor wish to stay in a crowded "hut".
And as for the most "pristine" section of the Trail (as well as being superbly maintained by the local Trail club), I'd pick Maine over New Hampshire.
sliderule
10-25-2009, 10:32
Yes, but do you go around telling others, especially new hikers not to carry a tent, or is that just YOUR choice like me not treating water?
The answer to that question would be clearly apparent to the average fifth-grader. But just to make things clear to those functioning at lower levels, I will reiterate my previously stated position: I do not carry a tent when my hike involves only shelters for which I have a reservation. That has been my policy for over 35 years; during that time, there has not been a single occasion where I needed a tent. Not one time.
While on my thru in 2001 going thru the Smokeys I pitched my tent, with probably 10 t0 12 others because the shelter was full. Just before dark when those in the shelter were already in their bags along came three hikers. The three approached the shelter and stated that they had a permit and someone was going to have to move out and make room for them. No one was eager to move. They said again that they had a permit to stay in the shelter and had not brought a tent so someone was going to have to move out. Their remarks drew the attention of everyone in tents nearby. A voice came out of the shelter. "I guess you will have to come in and drag us out." After a period of silance, the three hikers moved on.
Needless to say, it was the topic of discussion in the morning and for days after.
I guess the moral of the story would be: Thru-hikers won't give up their spot without a fight,
Regarding the original poster. I think the biggest problem is that they are used to being THE expert. When dealing with the folks who avail themselves of their services, they expect, and usually find, that no one questions anything they say. As far as I'm concerned, that is all the more reason to be careful of what they say and imply. He/She apparently isn't at all comfortable with being challenged.
Also, and this may just be me, but I find it exceedingly annoying that He/She speaks of the park as if it is their private property, "We have this", "Our rule is that". The Park is no more His/Hers than it is all of our's, they are just making a buck off it.
Regarding Sliderule, apparently none of us low-life's here are capable of understanding and comprehending his meaning. You know, all those perfectly understandable implications. If we were at all intelligent, we would not have to base our opinion on what he said, but could divine what he and others actually meant.
Pebble Puppy, we've had heated differences in the past, but your post here is pretty much right on the money in regard to the Smokies. I have no first-hand knowledge of NH.
This is just what gives so many AT hikers a bad name and a bad reputation.
I'm sure you run a fine guide service, but imagine if you walked into a room filled with a few thousand folks, many with extensive experience, who had been talking among themselves for months to years, and the first thing you say is "Listen to me, I'm the expert."
I don't know what kind of response you expected.
If I want to know the rules of any park, I'll check with the park.
Cookerhiker
10-25-2009, 11:25
While on my thru in 2001 going thru the Smokeys I pitched my tent, with probably 10 t0 12 others because the shelter was full. Just before dark when those in the shelter were already in their bags along came three hikers. The three approached the shelter and stated that they had a permit and someone was going to have to move out and make room for them. No one was eager to move. They said again that they had a permit to stay in the shelter and had not brought a tent so someone was going to have to move out. Their remarks drew the attention of everyone in tents nearby. A voice came out of the shelter. "I guess you will have to come in and drag us out." After a period of silance, the three hikers moved on.
Needless to say, it was the topic of discussion in the morning and for days after.
I guess the moral of the story would be: Thru-hikers won't give up their spot without a fight,
Actually I think the moral of story is that the Park needs to improve its communications. When those 3 guys made their reservations, did the Park tell them they might not actually get in the shelter and they should plan accordingly? Was it clear either from talking to the Park or from their documents e'.g. the permits themselves or the website. Right now the Park website is down so I couldn't check. But again as already discussed in this thread, both short-term hikers with reservations and true thruhikers have legitimate claims on shelter space and under the Park rules, overbooking is entirely possible; it fact, it's to be expected in Spring.
Cookerhiker
10-25-2009, 11:29
[quote=Lyle;911413]...Also, and this may just be me, but I find it exceedingly annoying that He/She speaks of the park as if it is their private property, "We have this", "Our rule is that". The Park is no more His/Hers than it is all of our's, they are just making a buck off it.
...[quote]
I agree completely with this point Lyle. Referring to "we" as if his service is an organizational component of the Park is a complete turnoff. As a retired Fed, I resent equating contractors and licensees with federal staff.
And what about the logistics of getting to the shelters and maintaining the privies?
We manage to do it in Maine. Every shelter has a privy, which are replaced or moved as needed, all by volunteers. Well, occasionally, we are a bit slow. But during my six or seven years as overseer of 60 miles of the 100-mile-wilderness, I oversaw the rehabilitation of six privies, and helped with a couple of them.
Traditionally, Maine has used pit privies. The pits are covered when full, and the privy moved to a new site. More recently we have mostly switched to above ground "moldering" privies, which require more annual maintenance, but less moving of heavy privies, and which impose less impact on the mountain environment.
Some of our privies are six miles from the nearest trailhead. Most of the materials needed are packed in on the backs of volunteers.
Weary
Spirit Walker
10-25-2009, 12:50
Two points:
One of the many problems I have with Backpacker magazine is that every single time they write about the AT, they say, "You don't need to carry a tent because there are shelters along the way." I've even written to the editor about it, and still they persist with that bit of bad advice. I stopped buying it a few years ago.
Regarding the privies - when I hiked the trail in '92, I met a Smokies maintainer. I asked about the lack of privies. He said that there were privies, but they filled up with trash very quickly (less than a year) and it was too difficult to clean them out every few months, so they took some of them out. As a result, there were shelters that were truly disgusting since the trash (and human waste) was simply left on the ground by people too lazy to deal with it properly.
Cookerhiker
10-25-2009, 12:57
.....Regarding the privies - when I hiked the trail in '92, I met a Smokies maintainer. I asked about the lack of privies. He said that there were privies, but they filled up with trash very quickly (less than a year) and it was too difficult to clean them out every few months, so they took some of them out. As a result, there were shelters that were truly disgusting since the trash (and human waste) was simply left on the ground by people too lazy to deal with it properly.
That's pretty pathetic. I doubt the culprits were thruhikers or any truly serious hikers. I don't think that's happened elsewhere on the Trail. I guess when a Park attracts hundreds of Ks of people in the backcountry, a few bad apples spoil it for everyone.
WILLIAM HAYES
10-25-2009, 17:06
Several years ago when I did the smokies I ran into this dorkie guy who worked for the forest service and carried a snoopy doll on his pack he was an officious little twirp who told me he had heard a sick thru hiker had been in a shelter for two days and he was headed to run him out. I gave him my opinion which was basically if I were the thru hiker I would tell him to kiss my butt --it was a short conversation
Cookerhiker
10-25-2009, 17:15
Several years ago when I did the smokies I ran into this dorkie guy who worked for the forest service and carried a snoopy doll on his pack he was an officious little twirp who told me he had heard a sick thru hiker had been in a shelter for two days and he was headed to run him out. I gave him my opinion which was basically if I were the thru hiker I would tell him to kiss my butt --it was a short conversation
Well if he worked for the Forest Service, he didn't have any authority to run the hiker off since the Smokies are a National Park.
Bulldawg
10-25-2009, 17:21
Actually I think the moral of story is that the Park needs to improve its communications. When those 3 guys made their reservations, did the Park tell them they might not actually get in the shelter and they should plan accordingly? Was it clear either from talking to the Park or from their documents e'.g. the permits themselves or the website. Right now the Park website is down so I couldn't check. But again as already discussed in this thread, both short-term hikers with reservations and true thruhikers have legitimate claims on shelter space and under the Park rules, overbooking is entirely possible; it fact, it's to be expected in Spring.
I tried making a reservation just this past week and I was informed that even if I had a reservation, that I needed to carry some sort of shelter, especially in the fall/winter for emergencies for myself or others who may have to emergency stay in the shelter.
SassyWindsor
10-25-2009, 17:37
By not getting a name correct at this threads creation says a lot about the person creating said thread. Especially, when it comes to something as important and as well known as the GSMNP.
In response to several posts about litter in the GSMNP, especially around shelters and privies: I find the panoramic views of the park as spectacular, the up close ones most often fall quite short of spectacular, even repulsive in some instances.
ChinMusic
10-25-2009, 17:44
One thing for sure, if you are gonna come on White Blaze as an "expert", you better know your stuff.
Hand-holding yuppies on dayhikes does not garner instant cred.
sliderule
10-25-2009, 17:52
You] might want to do a little work on sentence structure before you start throwing stones in that particular glass house!!!
sliderule
10-25-2009, 17:54
Hand-holding yuppies on dayhikes does not garner instant cred.
Should day hikers carry tents?
ChinMusic
10-25-2009, 17:57
You] might want to do a little work on sentence structure before you start throwing stones in that particular glass house!!!
The universal sign that one is out of useful info........:rolleyes:
ignored.......
For non thru hikers:
If any of you are interested, here are the official rules and regs:
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisi...untry-regs.htm (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm)
Backpackers and hikers are subject to all Backcountry Rules and Regulations. Failure to abide by park regulations may subject you to a fine under Title 36, Code of Federal Regulations. Maximum fine for each violation is $5,000 and/or 6 months in jail.
Backcountry Rules and Regulations
1. You must possess a backcountry permit (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-camping.htm) while camping in the backcountry.
2. Camping is permitted only at designated sites and shelters.
3. Use of reserved sites and shelters (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-camping.htm) must be confirmed through the Backcountry Reservation Office.
4. You may stay up to three consecutive nights at a site. You may not stay two nights in a row at a shelter.
5. Maximum camping party size is eight persons.
6. Open fires are prohibited except at designated sites. Use only wood that is dead and on the ground. Use only established fire rings.
7. The use of tents at shelters is prohibited.
8. Food storage: When not being consumed or transported, all food and trash must be suspended at least 10 feet off the ground and four feet from the nearest limb or trunk, or shall be stored as otherwise designated.
9. Toilet use must be at least 100 feet from a campsite or water source and out of sight of the trail. Human feces must be buried in a six-inch-deep hole.
10. All trash must be carried out.
11. All plants, wildlife, and natural and historic features are protected by law. Do not carve, deface, or cut any trees or shrubs.
12. Polluting park waters is prohibited. Do not wash dishes or bathe with soap in a stream.
13. Pets, motorized vehicles, and bicycles are not permitted in the backcountry.
JoshStover
10-25-2009, 19:16
I was told by a lady at the backcountry office at the Sugarlands VC that when I was doing my thru next year that I can use my tent beside the shelter if the shelter is full.
Jack Tarlin
10-25-2009, 19:17
Wow, even dead horses get tired of getting beat.
Long distance (and thru-hikers) have been permitted to tent immediately adjacent to full shelters for years in the Park.
To suggest that there is an absolute, blanket prohibition on tent camping in GSMNP by all visitiors is simply false.
This argument needs to end.
ChinMusic
10-25-2009, 19:22
Long distance (and thru-hikers) have been permitted to tent immediately adjacent to full shelters for years in the Park.
I don't know why she insists on posting incorrect/incomplete information. She made no mention of thru hikers in that "expert post".
She has been a HORRIBLE source of information.
Sigh, I give up. You guys win.
Jack Tarlin
10-25-2009, 19:35
It's not a matter of "winning" or losing, Vesna.
You repeatedly said things here that are provably untrue.
And doing this benefits nobody, especially when your coming here in the first place was allegedly to dispel "incorrect" information.
Much of what you had to say in your original post had merit. But your repeated comments about tenting (and your suggesting that people simply forego them in GSMNP) was simply wrong. It was bad advice.
What a pity you have such a problem with simply acknowledging this so we can move on.
ChinMusic
10-25-2009, 20:05
It's not a matter of "winning" or losing, Vesna.
You repeatedly said things here that are provably untrue.
And doing this benefits nobody, especially when your coming here in the first place was allegedly to dispel "incorrect" information.
Much of what you had to say in your original post had merit. But your repeated comments about tenting (and your suggesting that people simply forego them in GSMNP) was simply wrong. It was bad advice.
What a pity you have such a problem with simply acknowledging this so we can move on.
She made an edit on the post to UN-include thru hikers.
She posts incorrect information, gets called on it, and then makes an edit to clean up her mess.
She added "For non thru hikers:" since our posts........:rolleyes:
Yes, I did because I wanted to clarify my post to avoid yet another misunderstanding! I admit it!!!!! This however, is exactly how the Park service site reads so I guess they are guilty of posting incorrect information. I just added something to clarify their website.
To suggest that there is an absolute, blanket prohibition on tent camping in GSMNP by all visitiors is simply false.I doubt anyone said that. Would be absurd.
ChinMusic
10-25-2009, 20:19
Yes, I did because I wanted to clarify my post to avoid yet another misunderstanding! I admit it!!!!! This however, is exactly how the Park service site reads so I guess they are guilty of posting incorrect information. I just added something to clarify their website.
Like I mentioned before. You better know what you are posting here before you hit "enter".
This audience is not the yuppies you are used to.
I think cutting and pasting directly from the Park's website is as accurate as it gets and may actually help some of the folks who come to the Smokies, yuppies and non yuppies alike.
ChinMusic
10-25-2009, 20:27
I think cutting and pasting directly from the Park's website is as accurate as it gets and may actually help some of the folks who come to the Smokies, yuppies and non yuppies alike.
BUT, if you hadn't been corrected, that your information was for section hikers and NOT thru hikers, it could/would confuse future thrus.
Do you not see that?
Jack Tarlin
10-25-2009, 20:31
Whatever she may or may not have said, I think Vesna's original post here was well-intentioned, and she did, in fact, correct/edit something that was said in error.
Maybe it's time to move on, folks.
And for thru-hikers the NP site reads ...
"The use of tents at shelters is prohibited except by persons
qualifying as thru-hikers on the Appalachian Trail (by
definition an Appalachian thru-hiker is a backpacker who is
using the Appalachian Trail exclusively while in the park
and whose trip begins and ends a minimum of fifty miles
outside the park). Thru-hikers may pitch tents outside
shelters only when all bunks are otherwise occupied."
It is unrealistic to expect thru-hikers to obtain advance
reservations when they do not know when they will be
entering the park."
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/upload/09-Compendium.pdf (page 10)
Are we done yet???
ChinMusic
10-25-2009, 20:33
Are we done yet???
Should be. We could do without this WHOLE thread. All it added was confusion.
Cookerhiker
10-25-2009, 20:48
I think cutting and pasting directly from the Park's website is as accurate as it gets and may actually help some of the folks who come to the Smokies, yuppies and non yuppies alike.
Sorry Vesna, I disagree with this also. In fact, this cut-and-paste would actually hurt novices by in effect telling them to leave their tents home.
Yes cutting & pasting certainly provides the official rules but again, it raises questions. Now I'd like to think the context of 7. The use of tents at shelters is prohibited. (my own cut-and-paste) is that when you arrive at the shelter for which you have a reservation, you are not to camp in your tent but rather, you must stay in the shelter. So if only 3 hikers come to a shelter, all 3 must sleep in the shelter (including the snorers) - you can't pitch your tent outside the shelter.
But again, what about 20 legitimate hikers showing up at the 12-person shelter? If you take this rule literally, I guess the extra 8 cowboy camp or move on or sleep on the roof or whatever. The answer as provided by others on this thread is that the 8 may tent close i.e. within sight of the shelter and furthermore, the Park appears to sanction this approach notwithstanding its absence in the cut-and-pasted regs - see Bulldawg's experience.
But when your post or subsequent cut-and-pasted rules only says that tents are prohibited without providing context or elaboration, it inevitably leads to situations like the one described above where the 3 guys showed up with reservations and sans tents.
For once, I am waiting on Alligator to lock a thread down.
For once, I am waiting on Alligator to lock a thread down.As much as I hate to say, so am I. Where's he at when we actually need him? :rolleyes:
Jack Tarlin
10-25-2009, 21:06
Guys, this is the weekend, and Gator is not on 24 hour call. :rolleyes:
Rockhound
10-26-2009, 07:10
Well then I'll just have to post something that he could, in his inane wisdom, find offensive, inflamatory and not in compliance with at least 2 or 3 of the WB rules. Everyone who hikes in the Smokies should be required to smoke weed and tag each of the refurbished shelters, and if you get to a shelter that is full you should take a dump right in front to help express how you feel about all the stupid rules. Or, at the very least, have your dog take a dump there before you you down the last of your whiskey making sure to break the bottle in the fire pit. There, that should do the trick.
Well then I'll just have to post something that he could, in his inane wisdom, find offensive, inflamatory and not in compliance with at least 2 or 3 of the WB rules. Everyone who hikes in the Smokies should be required to smoke weed and tag each of the refurbished shelters, and if you get to a shelter that is full you should take a dump right in front to help express how you feel about all the stupid rules. Or, at the very least, have your dog take a dump there before you you down the last of your whiskey making sure to break the bottle in the fire pit. There, that should do the trick.
Lighten up Francis...:rolleyes:
Well then I'll just have to post something that he could, in his inane wisdom, find offensive, inflamatory and not in compliance with at least 2 or 3 of the WB rules. Everyone who hikes in the Smokies should be required to smoke weed and tag each of the refurbished shelters, and if you get to a shelter that is full you should take a dump right in front to help express how you feel about all the stupid rules. Or, at the very least, have your dog take a dump there before you you down the last of your whiskey making sure to break the bottle in the fire pit. There, that should do the trick.
Maybe it's 'cause it's Monday and I'm tired, but the dog dumping and bottle disposal requirements made me laugh. Thanks, I needed that. :banana
The answer to that question would be clearly apparent to the average fifth-grader. But just to make things clear to those functioning at lower levels, I will reiterate my previously stated position: I do not carry a tent when my hike involves only shelters for which I have a reservation. That has been my policy for over 35 years; during that time, there has not been a single occasion where I needed a tent. Not one time.
i bet you're one of those ********s that gets to a full shelter and then whines and snivels that you're a princess and you've got a reservation so somebody's gonna have to get up.
sliderule
10-26-2009, 10:13
i bet you're one of those ********s that gets to a full shelter and then whines and snivels that you're a princess and you've got a reservation so somebody's gonna have to get up.
That's a bet that you would lose. In 35+ years, I have never asked anyone to vacate a shelter on my behalf; not a single time. In fact, if reports on this forum are to be believed, it seems that the majority of thru hikers would welcome the opportunity to set up their tent because a shelter was full. My experience is consistent with that notion.
The bottom line is this: Federal regulations require that non-thru hikers have shelter reservations and stay in the shelter. Tenting is not a legal option. It seems to me that the "princesses" in this story are the folks who don't want to abide by the rules and expect those who do to suffer as a result. Thru hikers are welcome to make reservations if they so chose. If they don't, the are allowed to use shelters on a "space available" basis. Is there something confusing about that concept?
..................yawn...........................
Digger'02
10-26-2009, 11:13
just to comment on the Privy debate. The reason that there are locations without privies in the Smokies is generally not because of soil capacity for turds.
It has more to do with maintenance. It is difficult to get hundreds of pounds of mulch to each privy yearly. Further, moving privies, like you have to do when they fill, is not pretty work and the few volunteers who do this important work receive little praise or help. If folks want more privies, volunteer to maintain them and carry mulch, volunteer to move tricorner privy in a couple weeks!!!
sliderule
10-26-2009, 11:31
When those 3 guys made their reservations, did the Park tell them they might not actually get in the shelter and they should plan accordingly? Was it clear either from talking to the Park or from their documents e'.g. the permits themselves or the website. Right now the Park website is down so I couldn't check. But again as already discussed in this thread, both short-term hikers with reservations and true thruhikers have legitimate claims on shelter space and under the Park rules, overbooking is entirely possible; it fact, it's to be expected in Spring.
What circumstance would place a thru hiker's "claim" on shelter space at a higher priority than that of a reservation holder?
max patch
10-26-2009, 11:51
The only "claim" a "legitamate thru hiker" has on a shelter space in the GSMNP is on a space available basis only. Not much of a "claim."
If we're not careful, the National Parks Service will be making us book reservations for the Great Smoky Mountains on Orbitz dammit!
ShelterLeopard
10-26-2009, 13:25
If Vesna wants to leave the tent at home & hope to sleep inside cause he/she has a reservation that is fine. But don't present yourself as an "Expert" & tell others to do so. As an example: I haven't used any water treatment in over 2 years, but I would NEVER recommend anyone else do that, let alone say "Leave your water treatment at home, It's too much weight and only wussies treat water." yea, I do mention how I do it if asked, but I always say they should treat!
Well said Doctari- sums it all up.
max patch
10-26-2009, 13:48
If we're not careful, the National Parks Service will be making us book reservations for the Great Smoky Mountains on Orbitz dammit!
That'd be better than making the section hikers use the telephone.
ShelterLeopard
10-26-2009, 13:57
PS- DEAD THREAD should no longer be READ.
(She said from her bed whilst talking to ned and turning her head)
So this thread should no longer be fed.
sherrill
10-26-2009, 14:32
PS- DEAD THREAD should no longer be READ.
(She said from her bed whilst talking to ned and turning her head)
So this thread should no longer be fed.
Nuff said.
sheepdog
10-26-2009, 14:48
Nuff said.
nuff said
cause the thread
is dead
said ted
to ned
who was pretty well fed.
and not taking his med
Cookerhiker
10-26-2009, 15:07
What circumstance would place a thru hiker's "claim" on shelter space at a higher priority than that of a reservation holder?
The only "claim" a "legitamate thru hiker" has on a shelter space in the GSMNP is on a space available basis only. Not much of a "claim."
Did a little research and found this in the Companion:
"Shelter Policy
—Park regulations require that you stay in a shelter. While other backpackers must make reservations to use backcountry shelters, thru-hikers are exempt from this regulation, and, from Mar 15 to Jun 15, four spaces at each A.T. shelter are reserved for thru-hikers. If the shelter is occupied by reservation and four thru-hikers, however, additional thru-hikers should tent close by and use the bear cables. Because only thru-hikers are permitted to tent-camp at shelters, the burden is on them to make room inside shelters for others who have reserved space."
In some ways this is clearer than some of the rules referred to previously but it also raised more questions, namely what about thruhikers outside the March 15 - June 15 timeframe? But at least regarding "claims," the first 4 thrus have equal priority to those with reservations in that 3 month window.
i think i need some meds after reading this mess of a thread!! The "I have reservations and you don't, so I get to stay in the shelter." thing only works if people haven't already claimed a spot. Once someone has rolled out their pad and bag, it is their spot. That how it is everywhere, reservations or not. GSMNP might have specific rules but since the rest of the country works on a first come first served basis, people should expect the normal treatment with this sort of thing. Just make it easy on yourself as well as everyone else around and bring a stinkin tent! Is the 2-3 pounds gonna kill you? NO!
max patch
10-26-2009, 15:23
And yet some people still don't understand why I say the the GSMNP is easily the worst section of the AT to hike....
sliderule
10-26-2009, 18:25
i think i need some meds after reading this mess of a thread!! The "I have reservations and you don't, so I get to stay in the shelter." thing only works if people haven't already claimed a spot. Once someone has rolled out their pad and bag, it is their spot. !
Another Whiteblazer who just cannot seem to connect the dots!!! Folks with reservations have already claimed their spots, before they arrive; that is what having a reservation means.
Apparently sliderule is an armchair hiker. He has NO idea how the real world works. For that matter, he apparently has no idea of how a civil person acts, either on the internet or the trail.
ShelterLeopard
10-26-2009, 18:33
nuff said
cause the thread
is dead
said ted
to ned
who was pretty well fed.
and not taking his med
At least his feather bed wasn't red.
Instead was covered with crumbs of bread.
But his sled is red, and when he led the spread,
he came to dread this dead thread.
Cookerhiker
10-26-2009, 18:44
Another Whiteblazer who just cannot seem to connect the dots!!! Folks with reservations have already claimed their spots, before they arrive; that is what having a reservation means.
OK, OK, you're correct in a legalistic sense. But let's be responsible, not to mention smart and courteous here. Don't you think that those with reservations should at least get to the shelter reasonably early enough (I'm not saying 1 PM) rather than show up at say 9PM when the shelter is full of thruhikers and smugly announce "I've got a reservation - someone has to leave. I don't have a tent and I don't need one because I'm guaranteed a space in the shelter." And how on earth would those thruhikers have known or anticipated that a reservation existed for a hiker when it's late and they're all in bed? Are all thruhikers from the 5th one on supposed to pitch their tents in case a "reservationist" comes later?
Hikerhead
10-26-2009, 18:55
At least his feather bed wasn't red.
Instead was covered with crumbs of bread.
But his sled is red, and when he led the spread,
he came to dread this dead thread.
But not so fast, said Ned to Ted
There's one poster left to raise his ugly head
He lives in the swamps and his name ain't Ed
My name is Gator and this thread is dead
In 35+ years of hiking in the Smokies, I have never been denied space in a shelter at which I had a reservation. Nor have I ever carried a tent. Nor do I intend to.
Here is the original statement:
It its crystal-clear to me that "don't bring a tent" was immediately translated to "don't carry shelter" by a bunch of two-bit yahoos who were attempting to discredit the OP by sensationalizing the issue. The OP made an incredibly relevant point which was a bit too sophisticated for much of this audience.
The answer to that question would be clearly apparent to the average fifth-grader. But just to make things clear to those functioning at lower levels, I will reiterate my previously stated position: I do not carry a tent when my hike involves only shelters for which I have a reservation. That has been my policy for over 35 years; during that time, there has not been a single occasion where I needed a tent. Not one time.
It seems that you're the yahoo based on the posts I'm reading.
Just speculating, the first one in the shelter always gets a spot, so perhaps you never hike past sundown?:-?
I'm at least a three-bit yahoo myself.
I am thinking "Three Bit Yahoo" would make a great trail name, too. :banana
sliderule
10-26-2009, 19:08
Apparently sliderule is an armchair hiker.
In the final analysis, the matter of NPS regulations has much more to do with reading comprehension than it does with hiking experience. The rules apply to experienced hikers and novices in precisely the same manner. Unfortunately, in the illogical thought processes of some many on this forum, "experience" evidently confers some special permission to interpret the rules in a manner which they find appropriate to their self-serving view of the world.
sheepdog
10-26-2009, 19:12
Apparently sliderule is an armchair hiker. He has NO idea how the real world works. For that matter, he apparently has no idea of how a civil person acts, either on the internet or the trail.
most likely just a troll
sheepdog
10-26-2009, 19:17
PS- DEAD THREAD should no longer be READ.
(She said from her bed whilst talking to ned and turning her head)
So this thread should no longer be fed.
Nuff said.
nuff said
cause the thread
is dead
said ted
to ned
who was pretty well fed.
and not taking his med
At least his feather bed wasn't red.
Instead was covered with crumbs of bread.
But his sled is red, and when he led the spread,
he came to dread this dead thread.
But not so fast, said Ned to Ted
There's one poster left to raise his ugly head
He lives in the swamps and his name ain't Ed
My name is Gator and this thread is dead
so dead
or red
or read
until dead
I hate this thread
said fred to ted
sliderule
10-26-2009, 19:20
OK, OK, you're correct in a legalistic sense. But let's be responsible, not to mention smart and courteous here. Don't you think that those with reservations should at least get to the shelter reasonably early enough (I'm not saying 1 PM) rather than show up at say 9PM when the shelter is full of thruhikers and smugly announce "I've got a reservation - someone has to leave. I don't have a tent and I don't need one because I'm guaranteed a space in the shelter." And how on earth would those thruhikers have known or anticipated that a reservation existed for a hiker when it's late and they're all in bed? Are all thruhikers from the 5th one on supposed to pitch their tents in case a "reservationist" comes later?
If there is a technical problem with the current system, the issue of late arrivals is definitely it. The thruhiker cannot legally set up his tent until the shelter is full, but has no way to predict whether reservation holders might arrive at a late hour. It would be reasonable, in my view, to place a deadline on the arrival time, with respect to the reservation.
If it were up to me, reservations for those not already at the shelter would expire at the end of evening civil twilight.
Maybe they just need to hire a desk clerk for each shelter to check for reservations. Then we would also need a phone so if our reservations did not go through properly we could call orbitz or travelosity and have them taken care of. Maybe you could mention that to them slide. Then you can rest assured that we are all following the rules!
Cookerhiker
10-26-2009, 19:33
Maybe they just need to hire a desk clerk for each shelter to check for reservations. Then we would also need a phone so if our reservations did not go through properly we could call orbitz or travelosity and have them taken care of. Maybe you could mention that to them slide. Then you can rest assured that we are all following the rules!
Yes, thruhikers should be required to carry i-Phones and use them to check shelter availability so they'll know whether to tent or not when they arrive at an empty shelter. And we need more cell towers in the woods to ensure everyone has reception.
sheepdog
10-26-2009, 19:38
Yes, thruhikers should be required to carry i-Phones and use them to check shelter availability so they'll know whether to tent or not when they arrive at an empty shelter. And we need more cell towers in the woods to ensure everyone has reception.
how about phone booths every couple miles
If it were up to me, reservations for those not already at the shelter would expire at the end of evening civil twilight.
That sounds like uncivil twilight. :D
In a perfect world everyone would show up "on time" and a convenient hour for the people in the shelter.
Alas, it does not work that way. People over estimate their abilities. Ankles get twisted. People slip on a rock and bang their knee. Etc.
If someone showed up a at a shelter and I told them "sorry, your time is up" that would be rude and well, not really ethical.
Personally, I think this is making a (Smokie) mountain out of a molehill here. If someone tented at a shelter because it was later at night and/or it was full for whatever reason (as long as the person has a permit), I think Mr. or Miss Ranger would be understanding. Explain the situation politely, show the permit and I think it will all come out OK in the end. Most backcountry rangers are understanding that not everything is going to go exactly as planned.
That's what is known as the real world vs. cyberhiking. ;)
Or to quote the great Taoist Yogi Berra... "If the world was perfect, it wouldn't be".
Paul Mags..at least a three-bit yahoo.
/off to do that hiking thing. Eight annual Ridiculous Pumpkin Haul! Only four bit yahoos are allowed to do that!!!! :D
Cookerhiker
10-26-2009, 19:39
how about phone booths every couple miles
Isn't that so 20th Century? What about wireless hotspots? And of course, a latte bar.
How about the park install card key access to the shelters and provide cards only to guests with reservations? You pick your key up when you check in to obtain your permit.
Keeps out the hiking riff raff
Hiking is for yuppies after all :banana:banana:banana
sheepdog
10-26-2009, 19:45
Isn't that so 20th Century? What about wireless hotspots? And of course, a latte bar.
welllllllll
ok
ChinMusic
10-26-2009, 19:45
Yes, thruhikers should be required to carry i-Phones and use them to check shelter availability so they'll know whether to tent or not when they arrive at an empty shelter. And we need more cell towers in the woods to ensure everyone has reception.
Yes, more towers. My iPhone was and iPod in the Smokies.
I posted the same scenario as you, way back on page 1. It went unaddressed.
It would seem that common sense would take care of the problem, unless some over-ambitious hall monitor wanted to trot out chapter and verse and make a federal case out of it.
Cookerhiker
10-26-2009, 19:47
How about the park install card key access to the shelters and provide cards only to guests with reservations? You pick your key up when you check in to obtain your permit.
Keeps out the hiking riff raff
Hiking is for yuppies after all :banana:banana:banana
Hey, that'll keep the bears at bay!
sheepdog
10-26-2009, 19:48
Maybe each shelter could have a tv monitor like at the airport, you could check on expected arivals and delays.
ChinMusic
10-26-2009, 19:49
Maybe a tv monitor like at the airport, you could check on expected arivals and delays.
Ooooooo, baggage check.........I like it.
sliderule
10-26-2009, 19:50
Then you can rest assured that we are all following the rules!
In order to follow the rules, one must first understand the rules. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that that is an unrealistic expectation for this audience. It seems that any discussion of GSMNP regulations brings forth an abundance of misinformation that simply defies logic. Admittedly, some fault lies with the NPS. They do not widely publicize the thru hiker rules for fear that the general public will take advantage of the "special dispensations." About ten years ago, the NPS did place explanatory signs at Fontana and Hot Springs; that seemed to help significantly.
sheepdog
10-26-2009, 19:52
uh oh slidrule's back,
there goes the fun and frivolity
In order to follow the rules, one must first understand the rules. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that that is an unrealistic expectation for this audience.
Perhaps you should seek out a new audience?:-?
Some people spend so much time with their heads in books that the real world goes on around them and they don't even notice. The only human contact they have is usually in the form of arguments or discussions where they try to convince themselves that they are the more intelligent, because "they read it somewhere". Meanwhile they person they are arguing with is thinking " i wish this guy would SHUT HIS MOUTH!" I'm not sayin... I'm just sayin :)
sliderule
10-26-2009, 20:07
In a perfect world everyone would show up "on time" and a convenient hour for the people in the shelter.
Alas, it does not work that way. People over estimate their abilities. Ankles get twisted. People slip on a rock and bang their knee. Etc.
As you point out, there are many risk factors associated with hiking. Potentially losing one's spot in the shelter is just another risk factor.
If someone showed up a at a shelter and I told them "sorry, your time is up" that would be rude and well, not really ethical.
How polite and "ethical" would it be for a group of reservation holders to roust a half-dozen thru hikers out of the rack in the middle of the night?
As you pointed out, it's not a perfect world; you can't have it both ways.
Bulldawg
10-26-2009, 21:19
In order to follow the rules, one must first understand the rules. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that that is an unrealistic expectation for this audience. It seems that any discussion of GSMNP regulations brings forth an abundance of misinformation that simply defies logic. Admittedly, some fault lies with the NPS. They do not widely publicize the thru hiker rules for fear that the general public will take advantage of the "special dispensations." About ten years ago, the NPS did place explanatory signs at Fontana and Hot Springs; that seemed to help significantly.
Perhaps you should seek out a new audience?:-?
Dang, Egads, you beat me to it. Sliderule, you should probably give it a rest man. You're making a lot more enemies than you are friends here and you are starting to look like a real pompous a$$~~~~!!!! Just a friendly FYI!:rolleyes::cool:
Despite the fact that there is more chaff than wheat in this thread, I have a couple questions:
-Are thru-hikers required to self register as such at Fontana or Davenport Gap?
-Are there a maximum amount of days that the thru hiker can spend traversing the park?
Speaking as a backpacker, I'll have to say that the Smoky's are a pain in the ass to visit for a backpacking trip. In order to qualify for the thru-hiker considerations, one would have to be out for at least 3 weeks between March and June and would have to stick to the AT. If you plan your trip using the normal reservation system, you have to plan months in advance and hope you can get the resrvations for each campsite in the order you hope to travel. This is not as tricky if you elect to utilize unrationed/rationed tentsites, but the shelters along the AT are another story. I'd love to hear about someone's attempt to reserve shelter space for several people from Newfound Gap to Davenport Gap during the peak of Fall colors. I doubt it could be pulled off without inside information. I limit my park visits to Winter to make things a little easier.
Bulldawg
10-26-2009, 21:46
I'd love to hear about someone's attempt to reserve shelter space for several people from Newfound Gap to Davenport Gap during the peak of Fall colors. I doubt it could be pulled off without inside information. I limit my park visits to Winter to make things a little easier.
I can tell you that I tried to get Icewater springs for November 20th, on October 20th (first day I could try). I called at 8:20am on 10/20/2009. The 12 spaces were already full, 20 minutes after the Backcountry office opened. It was unbelievable!!
sliderule
10-26-2009, 21:53
Despite the fact that there is more chaff than wheat in this thread, I have a couple questions:
-Are thru-hikers required to self register as such at Fontana or Davenport Gap?
Fontana or Hot Springs. There is no permit station at Davenport Gap.
-Are there a maximum amount of days that the thru hiker can spend traversing the park?
Seven. All of which must be spent on the AT. Leaving the AT invalidates the thru hiker permit.
Cookerhiker
10-26-2009, 21:54
Despite the fact that there is more chaff than wheat in this thread, I have a couple questions:
-Are thru-hikers required to self register as such at Fontana or Davenport Gap?
-Are there a maximum amount of days that the thru hiker can spend traversing the park?
Speaking as a backpacker, I'll have to say that the Smoky's are a pain in the ass to visit for a backpacking trip. In order to qualify for the thru-hiker considerations, one would have to be out for at least 3 weeks between March and June and would have to stick to the AT. If you plan your trip using the normal reservation system, you have to plan months in advance and hope you can get the resrvations for each campsite in the order you hope to travel. This is not as tricky if you elect to utilize unrationed/rationed tentsites, but the shelters along the AT are another story. I'd love to hear about someone's attempt to reserve shelter space for several people from Newfound Gap to Davenport Gap during the peak of Fall colors. I doubt it could be pulled off without inside information. I limit my park visits to Winter to make things a little easier.
I hiked the Smokies SOBO on a section hike in the peak of Fall colors in October '04 (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=83589). I started at Allen Gap rather than Hot Springs (to comply with the 50 mile rule) and picked up a permit at the Forest Service station in Hot Springs. I guess I was lucky - none of the shelters where I stayed were completely full - I don't think there were ever more than 6-7 of us. I actually had Russell Field Shelter to myself.
I recall a crowd heading to Spence Field but I never saw how many.
And yes, since this thread is about rules, I continued my hike to Wallace Gap so I met the 50 mile criteria on the other end also.
sliderule
10-26-2009, 21:57
I can tell you that I tried to get Icewater springs for November 20th, on October 20th (first day I could try). I called at 8:20am on 10/20/2009. The 12 spaces were already full, 20 minutes after the Backcountry office opened. It was unbelievable!!
The shelter could have been booked for days prior to your call. (Reservations can be made 30 days prior to the start of a hike.)
I can tell you that I tried to get Icewater springs for November 20th, on October 20th (first day I could try). I called at 8:20am on 10/20/2009. The 12 spaces were already full, 20 minutes after the Backcountry office opened. It was unbelievable!!
Exactly. That's happened to a group I was going with when we tried to get Icewater and LeConte for a weekend in January!
I hiked the Smokies SOBO on a section hike in the peak of Fall colors in October '04 (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=83589). I started at Allen Gap rather than Hot Springs (to comply with the 50 mile rule) and picked up a permit at the Forest Service station in Hot Springs. I guess I was lucky - none of the shelters where I stayed were completely full - I don't think there were ever more than 6-7 of us. I actually had Russell Field Shelter to myself.
I recall a crowd heading to Spence Field but I never saw how many.
And yes, since this thread is about rules, I continued my hike to Wallace Gap so I met the 50 mile criteria on the other end also.I'm not trying to bust anyone about rules, but the fact is the Smoky's have strict ones. Actually, this brings up another unfortunate fact. Folks make reservations and don't show up. I'm not surprised that the shelters weren't full, but I'd be willing to bet that there was no room to make reservations.
ChinMusic
10-26-2009, 22:10
Exactly. That's happened to a group I was going with when we tried to get Icewater and LeConte for a weekend in January!
Some will "game" the system.
For example:
They want Icewater on the 5th of Jan.
They call on Dec 1 and reserve 113 for the 31st, Mollies for the 1st, Spence for the 2nd, Double Spring for the 3rd, Mt Collins for the 4th, and Icewater for the 5th.
They then later cancel the first 5 and keep Icewater. Or just not bother to show up until the 5th.
You call 1 second after opening and find out all the slots are gone....
Interesting. 152 posts of Bulls vs Bears no one is giving ground, so why not each of you involved in this for the last several days call the park office for the correct answer since the Park Service has made the rules then hash it out from there over a BEER SUMMIT (HA). Common since says to bring a tent which I did when I used this Thread Starters shuttle service to Davenport Gap in Sept of 08 and they recommended NO TENT because of our shelter reservations and also it would lighten our load. That to me is a crock, to many what if's out there and if the shelter is packed so be it, enjoy your privacy in your own shelter.
Hikerhead
10-26-2009, 22:13
I've only stayed at one shelter in the Smokies, the one near Sterling Tower on the BMT. Laurel Ridge I think was the name. Only about 6 people were there. This father and son showed up after dark. The grown up kid gets on the top bunk where I'm at. All night the kid was bouncing up and down saying daddy my butt itches. It was trying to sleep on a trampoline. I wished it would have filled up so that I could camp out side.
sliderule
10-26-2009, 22:19
Common since says to bring a tent which I did when I used this Thread Starters shuttle service to Davenport Gap in Sept of 08 and they recommended NO TENT because of our shelter reservations and also it would lighten our load. That to me is a crock, to many what if's out there and if the shelter is packed so be it, enjoy your privacy in your own shelter.
For the sake of full disclosure, how many times were you "shut out" of a shelter because there was no room for you?
We sectioned again in Sept 09, made reservations in Aug and were told we got the last three spots in 3 of our 7 shelters. All our shelters for the entire week had 6 of us at the most and Ice Water almost full because of a Saturday night.
sliderule
10-26-2009, 22:23
I've only stayed at one shelter in the Smokies, the one near Sterling Tower on the BMT. Laurel Ridge I think was the name. Only about 6 people were there. This father and son showed up after dark. The grown up kid gets on the top bunk where I'm at. All night the kid was bouncing up and down saying daddy my butt itches. It was trying to sleep on a trampoline. I wished it would have filled up so that I could camp out side.
Just one problem with that theory: Camping outside the Laurel Gap shelter is never permitted; it's not an AT shelter.
For the sake of full disclosure, how many times were you "shut out" of a shelter because there was no room for you?
That is not what I said. I take a shelter as a just in-case. You do not seem to get anything through your thick gourd as indicated in your other past reply's
Is it that hard to just answer a question without throwing in a useless dig? C'mon folks, let that thick skin work for you.
Rockhound
10-26-2009, 22:31
just a little more fuel for the fire. If you get off at Newfound Gap and head into Gatvegas for a day or two and then return are you still considered a thru-hiker?
just a little more fuel for the fire. If you get off at Newfound Gap and head into Gatvegas for a day or two and then return are you still considered a thru-hiker? My take would be no.
sliderule
10-26-2009, 22:41
Is it that hard to just answer a question without throwing in a useless dig?
Apparently it is, especially when the answer would not support the preconceived notions being put forth.
So if you are a Thru what is written on the permit? And do you list the shelters you are planning on staying or just take it one day at a time as far as where to drop off for the night?
Rockhound
10-26-2009, 22:44
screw it. next time im in the Smokies I'll just be sure to stealth far enough off the trail so no shelter dwellers will find me and I can avoid all this drama.
ChinMusic
10-26-2009, 22:46
So if you are a Thru what is written on the permit? And do you list the shelters you are planning on staying or just take it one day at a time as far as where to drop off for the night?
one day at a time
Thanks man. I like your answers
screw it. next time im in the Smokies I'll just be sure to stealth far enough off the trail so no shelter dwellers will find me and I can avoid all this drama.
It's gonna be OK. I see very little drama, just a whole lot of misunderstandings resulting in sporadic flare ups of pseudo-drama.
sliderule
10-26-2009, 23:12
Interesting. 152 posts of Bulls vs Bears no one is giving ground, so why not each of you involved in this for the last several days call the park office for the correct answer since the Park Service has made the rules then hash it out from there over a BEER SUMMIT (HA).
I have been to several summits with the NPS and little has changed because they don't see much of a problem with the status quo. In fact, very little has has changed with the reservation system since it was instituted in 1972.
The biggest improvement was the telephone reservation option. For a number of years, reservations had to be made in person and on the starting day of the hike. And, in the cooler months, the hiker's gear had to be inspected by a ranger is advance of issuing the permit. (There was a list of required equipment.) So, things are not as bad now as they used to be.
Interesting. Thanks for the info
ShelterLeopard
10-26-2009, 23:39
so dead
or red
or read
until dead
I hate this thread
said fred to ted
I promise you this time,
if this thread doesn't stop,
nor will my rhyme.
My lines are bad,
This I know,
But if ya'll don't stop,
My rhyme will grow,
And with my poorly chosen words,
This thread will OVERFLOW!
ShelterLeopard
10-26-2009, 23:43
Actually, this thread has taken a turn for the better,
But once I begin with my rhymes, I never will cease,
So I best leave this thread,
While it's still in one piece.
(The scheme doesn't fit all the time,
My lines aren't exactly "sublime")
Actually, this thread has taken a turn for the better,
But once I begin with my rhymes, I never will cease,
So I best leave this thread,
While it's still in one piece.
(The scheme doesn't fit all the time,
My lines aren't exactly "sublime")
Humor is good. G'night all
How polite and "ethical" would it be for a group of reservation holders to roust a half-dozen thru hikers out of the rack in the middle of the night?
.
Not polite at all. That's why two bit yahoos like me bring tents.
Real world vs. cyber hiking and all that. ;)
HEy..what's your favorite beer?
aaaaannnnnnnd.....
i bet you're one of those ********s that gets to a full shelter and then whines and snivels that you're a princess and you've got a reservation so somebody's gonna have to get up.
Another Whiteblazer who just cannot seem to connect the dots!!! Folks with reservations have already claimed their spots, before they arrive; that is what having a reservation means.
i told you so.
Bulldawg
10-27-2009, 08:51
aaaaannnnnnnd.....
i told you so.
I got a feeling this guy ain't from Georgia originally!!:eek::cool::rolleyes:
Dances with Mice
10-27-2009, 09:09
.... And, in the cooler months, the hiker's gear had to be inspected by a ranger is advance of issuing the permit. (There was a list of required equipment.) Interesting. So back then did the Rangers confiscate tents or was carrying a tent / shelter required?
sliderule
10-27-2009, 09:40
Interesting. So back then did the Rangers confiscate tents or was carrying a tent / shelter required?
A tent was not a required item.
Bulldawg
10-27-2009, 09:43
A tent was not a required item.
I don't believe you!!!!
sliderule
10-27-2009, 11:25
I don't believe you!!!!
Perhaps you would like to share your rationale for that belief.
Bulldawg
10-27-2009, 11:35
Perhaps you would like to share your rationale for that belief.
It is utterly stupid and beyond reproach to suggest to ANYONE that you should venture into the woods overnight without some sort of shelter. Knees get twisted, ankles get twisted, etc. etc. Anyone of sound mind would not take the risk associated with relying on getting to a shelter as they "safe plan". Only an idiot would assume they are going to make it to a shelter. "BE PREPARED" is a good motto to live by when hiking is concerned.
Careful Bulldawg, sliderule likes to play symantics. He said "Tents were not required" He'll burn you on this and say, "I didn't say shelter was not required".
He seems to like these little word and insinuation games, then call you out for being unable to comprehend.
Give him a minute.
If they weren't checking for tent (or shelter) what would the rangers be searching for?
Bulldawg
10-27-2009, 12:03
If they weren't checking for tent (or shelter) what would the rangers be searching for?
Portable music players?? Firewood??
I found it..... Title 4, subsection 411: All campers must carry a portable music device, 2lbs of dry cedar kindling and a Spot device to notify ridge runners of illegal tent camping. HAHA
If they weren't checking for tent (or shelter) what would the rangers be searching for?
Portable music players?? Firewood??
I inherited an old Smokie Mountian hikers guidebook from my father. It does have a couple of paragraphs discussing the fact the park rangers checked your pack, sleeping bag, food, and boots, & other gear before they gave you a permit in the winter. IIRC, it specifically mentioned shin high leather hiking boots, -20* sleeping bags, etc...
Dances with Mice
10-27-2009, 12:29
A tent was not a required item.On the old required items list, was there listed any form of portable overnight shelter?
sliderule
10-27-2009, 12:38
Careful Bulldawg, sliderule likes to play symantics. He said "Tents were not required" He'll burn you on this and say, "I didn't say shelter was not required".
No "symantics" (sic) required.
The only item on the list even remotely related to "shelter" was a sleeping bag rated to twenty degrees below zero. There was no requirement for a tent, tarp, fly, bivi or other piece of gear which would be reasonably synonymous with "shelter."
Alligator
10-27-2009, 13:10
The opening post to this thread was modified 3 times or so which makes the responses a bit out of sync. Then there's some trolling and personal attacks and other nonsense so this thread's closed. However, if some one would like to restart the thread topic and include pertinent information for both thruhikers and nonthruhikers that's fine. Given the shifting nature of the opening post this one will not be cleaned up.