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Lostone
10-26-2009, 11:40
Reading the other thread started by the "Local Expert" I began to wonder.

So should I even bother to make reservations at the shelters? It seems pretty clear to me that there is no point to it. It is unenforceable and most people will not give up "their" spot in the shelter reservations or not. the possession is 9/10's of the law thing.

Unless a ridge runner is right there at the precise moment of the dispute(no chance of that) nothing will get resolved.

So whats a fellow to do?

Besides I will be hiking with my tween age son and I am unsure about exposing him to some of the shelter dwellers.

ShelterLeopard
10-26-2009, 11:45
If you're talking about GSMNP, you don't need to make reservations if you're thruing. (Or doing a large section). I really don't understand the whole point, as NO ONE follows the rules. You might as well make reservations though- sure won't hurt.

Ewker
10-26-2009, 12:19
if I am staying at a shelter that is on the AT I make reservations. If I am just backpacking for a weekend trip I stay at campsites that do not require reservations.

ChinMusic
10-26-2009, 12:37
So whats a fellow to do?

If a section hiker: Get a permit, carry a shelter, and follow the rules as best you can.

The operative part is "as best you can".


Besides I will be hiking with my tween age son and I am unsure about exposing him to some of the shelter dwellers.
Don't know where that came from? Maybe Disneyland would be a better choice for a vacation.

sliderule
10-26-2009, 12:41
I really don't understand the whole point, as NO ONE follows the rules.

That is factually incorrect, just like the vast majority of posts concerning NPS regulations in the Park.

sliderule
10-26-2009, 12:45
...and most people will not give up "their" spot in the shelter reservations or not.


My experience suggests that quite the opposite is true. In fact, thru hikers are often overjoyed when a shelter fills up, as it then becomes legal for them to set up their tent.

ShelterLeopard
10-26-2009, 12:48
How is it so incorrect? (I mean, no one may have been stretching it) But I always hear about weekenders who take up the whole shelter and don't give two **&&s about the spots saved for thru hikers or reservations. I didn't say that I don't follow the rules (and honestly, I'm going on other people's experience here- never actually stayed in GSMNP myself yet). But that's what I've heard.

Didn't say anything about the regulations, just that no one follows them.

sliderule
10-26-2009, 12:52
If a section hiker: Get a permit, carry a shelter, and follow the rules as best you can.



Section hikers may or may not be required to have a reservation. All overnight hikers, however, must have a permit.

sheepdog
10-26-2009, 12:57
Section hikers may or may not be required to have a reservation. All overnight hikers, however, must have a permit.
Where??? Are you talking in a park or on the trail in general. If your not in a park its genrally first come first served, no permit needed.

sliderule
10-26-2009, 13:04
Where??? Are you talking in a park or on the trail in general.

Given that this discussion is taking place in the GSMNP sub-forum, I would hope that even the dimmest participant could figure that out.

Spokes
10-26-2009, 13:06
If we're not careful, the National Parks Service will be making us book reservations for the Great Smoky Mountains on Orbitz dammit!

sheepdog
10-26-2009, 13:06
Given that this discussion is taking place in the GSMNP sub-forum, I would hope that even the dimmest participant could figure that out.
Obviously your wrong. Cause I didn't. :rolleyes::D

You could point out the error without name calling.

Lostone
10-26-2009, 13:23
My comment on the shelter dwellers is in regards drinking, drug use and language.

I have been to disney, A tad expensive, but I did enjoy the experience.

sheepdog
10-26-2009, 13:24
My comment on the shelter dwellers is in regards drinking, drug use and language.

I have been to disney, A tad expensive, but I did enjoy the experience.
With rare exceptions, most people I've met hiking and using shelters have been good people.

Lostone
10-26-2009, 13:26
sliderule......Thanks for pointing it out. You just can't help some. Not getting all the information before posting a reply.

sheepdog
10-26-2009, 13:31
sliderule......Thanks for pointing it out. You just can't help some. Not getting all the information before posting a reply.
Never made a mistake or overlooked something?

max patch
10-26-2009, 13:34
It seems pretty clear to me that there is no point to it.



Worst case scenario of a $5,000 fine and 6 months in jail would be a pretty big point for some people.

Mags
10-26-2009, 13:36
My comment on the shelter dwellers is in regards drinking, drug use and language.




The further you are from the road, the less likely you are to see excessive drinking and language. In a national park, where people have to exert some effort to get a permit and hike in a ways, there will probably be no excessive partying. There will probably be the occasional "Oh sh**" and perhaps a snort of whiskey...but that's probably about it.

Drug use (other than prescription drugs and alcohol of course) is usually pot... If someone uses pot (assuming they don't ask first), a polite and friendly "Hey..you mind not doing that" goes a long way. Only a total jackass would not honor that request (if done in a friendly/polite manner).


OTOH, if you are not tied into the AT, there are many wonderful parts of the park that are non-shelter camping where a lot of this can be avoided easily. :)

Shelters are shared living spaces...and have all the quirks that come with shared living spaces.

ChinMusic
10-26-2009, 14:13
Anyone else smell a troll?

kanga
10-26-2009, 14:15
it kinda smelled like fish to me, but you're probably closer.

Mags
10-26-2009, 14:24
:o I took the troll bait..

Still good advice though..if you don't like the shelter living arrangement, go to where you don't have to use shelters. No trolls in their. ;)

Lostone
10-26-2009, 14:39
Ask an honest question and get labeled a troll.

I hope to section hike with my son and finish before he graduates high school.

I suspected that the only shelter experiences that get posted about were bad ones. Just trying to confirm it was all.

sheepdog
10-26-2009, 14:46
...........

Cookerhiker
10-26-2009, 15:16
If you're talking about GSMNP, you don't need to make reservations if you're thruing. (Or doing a large section). I really don't understand the whole point, as NO ONE follows the rules. You might as well make reservations though- sure won't hurt.

No, alot of us, probably most of us do follow the rules. I hiked in the Smokies last week staying 2 nights (non-AT backcountry) and had reservations. I last hiked the AT in the Smokies in '07 - just a 1-night stand - and had reservations at Cosby Knob Shelter. And in October '04 (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=83589), I actually started a SOBO section hike at Allen Gap rather than the more-convenient Hot Springs to comply with the 50 mile rule.

Not looking for a metal for being goody-goody - just making a point. Please don't disregard the rules.

Lyle
10-26-2009, 15:23
I did not read this entire thread, but in answering the OP, I will relate the following:

In a conversation with one of the long-time ridge runners that I spoke with just north of Clingman's. They realize that many folks do not keep their exact schedules, run into conflicts at shelters, and do not want these conflicts to become escalated and dangerous. He indicated that both Ridge Runners and LEO's would look much more kindly on a person with a valid permit, who has appeared to make a reasonable attempt to follow it as opposed to someone who is found to be totally flaunting the regulations.

I guess that is why you should go ahead and get your permit, and do your reasonable best to follow it.

ChinMusic
10-26-2009, 15:45
In a conversation with one of the long-time ridge runners that I spoke with just north of Clingman's. They realize that many folks do not keep their exact schedules, run into conflicts at shelters, and do not want these conflicts to become escalated and dangerous. He indicated that both Ridge Runners and LEO's would look much more kindly on a person with a valid permit, who has appeared to make a reasonable attempt to follow it as opposed to someone who is found to be totally flaunting the regulations.

I guess that is why you should go ahead and get your permit, and do your reasonable best to follow it.
Yep. As a section hiker: Get your permit, carry a shelter, and follow the rules as best you can. Situations may arise where you "need" to violate the letter of the law.

Most folks aren't jerks and understand.

Bearpaw
10-26-2009, 16:49
20 years ago, I don't there was such an issue with permits for GSMNP AT shelters permits. I know that I hiked a LOT in the park and from 1985 until 2005, I never once saw a ranger or ridgerunner on the AT inside the park.

I am just guessing here, but overuse must be enough of an issue that officials are now policing the trail much more inside the park. I can only think of one trip out of five on the Smokies AT (since 2005) that I have NOT run into a ranger or ridgerunner. There IS some enforcement happening out there. If you're not starting and ending at least 50 miles outside of the Park, you need to call within 30 days of your hike and get reservations.

Most folks DO follow the rules.

BTW, the three spots for thru-hikers is ONLY reserved in April, May, and June. So if "some weekender" didn't make room for a thru-hiker in June or beyond, it's because there were no reserved spots for the thru-hiker, not that weekenders were there without reservations.

On a side note, the truly smart avoid the whole reservation issue and hike the Benton MacKaye Trail through the park instead of the AT any way. ;)

Ewker
10-26-2009, 17:07
On a side note, the truly smart avoid the whole reservation issue and hike the Benton MacKaye Trail through the park instead of the AT any way. ;)


still have to have reservations for some of the campsites and the Laurel Gap shelter on the BMT :p

Mags
10-26-2009, 17:59
still have to have reservations for some of the campsites and the Laurel Gap shelter on the BMT :p

Yep..anything RESERVED status. The majority of the campsites though you just signed for at self-serve kiosk.

Easy-peasy/mac-n-cheesy. A lot easier than Rocky Mtn NP I'll tell you that much.


I had a break at the Laurel Gap shelter. What a pig sty. :eek:

beakerman
10-26-2009, 18:31
If we're not careful, the National Parks Service will be making us book reservations for the Great Smoky Mountains on Orbitz dammit!


no worse: reserve america....ohh howI hate that site, let me count the ways....

Cookerhiker
10-26-2009, 18:48
still have to have reservations for some of the campsites and the Laurel Gap shelter on the BMT :p

Most of the campsites in GSMNP require reservations, not just the AT shelters.

Bearpaw
10-26-2009, 18:50
Most of the campsites in GSMNP require reservations, not just the AT shelters.

I wouldn't say most. Maybe 1/3. But there ARE a decent number of popular sites that require a reservation.

birdog
10-26-2009, 18:50
Since I hike the Smoky's a lot I'll throw in my 2 cents. Follow the rules period. The Park is just plain crowded no two ways about it. Make reservations early and don't be put off by an unanswered phone...keep trying. Carry a tent is solid advice no matter who says what. Its the rule of being prepared. Shelters are ALWAYS crowded except in the dead of winter when I really like to be there. I can't tell you the number of times I've had a particular shelter to myself and not just the remote ones. Icewater Springs, Mt Collins, Silers Bald, and even the venerable Mt. LeConte have been empty save me on a weekend night. Jennifer is the Park Ranger who patrols the LeConte shelter and I assure that ANY breach of the rules will be met with swift justice. Dont chance the fine(s) or be willing to cough up $125 per illegal tent or occupant without a permit. Word from experience.

Cookerhiker
10-26-2009, 18:55
I wouldn't say most. Maybe 1/3. But there ARE a decent number of popular sites that require a reservation.

OK - I'm sure you're right since you've hiked there much more than I have. I just remember when we planned our 3 day hike last week, it seemed like all the ones we looked at on the east side (we were hiking out of Cataloochee) required reservations.

Cookerhiker
10-26-2009, 18:59
......Shelters are ALWAYS crowded except in the dead of winter when I really like to be there. I can't tell you the number of times I've had a particular shelter to myself and not just the remote ones. Icewater Springs, Mt Collins, Silers Bald, and even the venerable Mt. LeConte have been empty save me on a weekend night. .....

I was astonished on my section hike in mid-October '04 amidst the fall colors that none of the shelters were cram full and I actually had Russell Field (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=84123) all to myself. And the next day, I met a guy who had stayed in Mollies Ridge alone also.

gollwoods
10-27-2009, 19:36
A T shelters are the last place I choose to go on a hike in the park, with the exception of tri-corner. I saw a guy cut down rodo for a fire with a saw at Mt collins why? beer, pot, all kinds of rubbish. I could see that at work.

birdog
10-27-2009, 19:51
Right-o sir, Mt Collins is less than half a mile from Clingmans Dome road and it seems, at times, that this shelter is the ipso facto frat party for some locals. A pull off and a sign mark the way. I have seen beer KEGS at that shelter. No kidding. I have avoided this shelter for years due to the trash and day hikers just trying to get a look at a "real" hiker. Another time 25 students who appeared to be 17-20 years old showed up with a BBQ grill and charcoal. Again, this is probably not the norm but just like car vandalism, I seem to attract this type of stuff.

Blissful
10-27-2009, 20:14
When we went in '07 ridgerunners were there with clipboards checking in the sectioners with reservations. They were keeping an eye on it. They were nice to thrus about camping in tents. I did it several times. Not once did i have to show my permit but I carried it anyway.

As far as problems at AT shelters in general, I've seen the joint passed around in front of a fire once. SOme drinking - just a few times. Hardly ever heard a cuss word, honestly. Not a big issue like I thought it might be. Even on a weekend in the Smokies, the guys there unloaded all their food on us and made us burritos. Most drinking I saw was atop Sringer mtn with an '06 reunion and at Partnership.

Chaco Taco
10-27-2009, 21:36
What is the count on the number of threads about this particular topic??

Rain Man
10-27-2009, 22:09
Reading the other thread ... I began to wonder. ... should I even bother to make reservations at the shelters? ... Besides I will be hiking with my tween age son ....

Should you bother? Well, if you want to be ethical and moral, the answer is obvious. Not to mention, if you want your son to see you being ethical and moral ... or not.

Remember, "character" isn't what you do when the Ranger is standing over you checking your permit. Your true character is what you do when no one is watching. Have some pride in yourself and give your son some in you at the same time. Have a great father-and-son hike!

Rain:sunMan

.

Lostone
10-28-2009, 00:31
So what lesson is learned when we show up with reservations and the shelter is full and the people inside refuse to move?

Being a good sport?
Bad guys and liars win?
Even living by the rules you still lose?

Now I am trolling.

Ramble~On
10-28-2009, 01:55
Well....in that instance I view it as they got there before me and if the shelter is stuffed..I'm quite happy to tent, hammock, cowboy or move on.

max patch
10-28-2009, 06:31
So what lesson is learned when we show up with reservations and the shelter is full and the people inside refuse to move?



The lesson is that hiking the AT in the GSNP is the worst section to hike on the entire AT.

Marta
10-28-2009, 07:07
Yeah, make reservations. A lot of people get off their schedules and end up at a different shelter than they had planned to be at, but somehow it generally works out. Off-season hiker that I am, I've never been at a Smokies shelter where there were ugly scenes going on. People just slide over and make room.

I hope I haven't just jinxed myself--my Thanksgiving itinerary calls for hiking some trails that are best done by staying in shelters. I made the reservations yesterday. (Last number redial is a wonderful thing.)

Last weekend we had an odd experience at campsite #64. I took a small group (4 others) on a Backpacker Bootcamp, for first-time and inexperienced adult backpackers. We hiked up Noland Creek Trail and set up at #64, 4 miles from the trailhead. A couple of us hiked the rest of the way up to Noland Divide and back. During the whole day we met exactly two other people, and they camped at #63. It was a beautiful clear night, just our little group, and we were next to a rushing stream. It doesn't get much better than that.

In the morning three of us got up early and hiked up Springhouse Branch Trail to the end. Mist was pooled down in the valleys. Leaf color was incredible. We hiked back to the campsite, and when we came around the last corner...there were at least a dozen cars and pickup trucks parked all over the campsite. More arrived every few minutes. One truck had three Park Service rangers in it. They never did ask to see our permit, or anything.

I guess it was one of those annual family reunion things that happens in the Smokies. As we hiked out, we kept having to move aside for the vehicular traffic on Noland Creek Trail. It was one of the odder experiences we've had in the Smokies.

nitewalker
10-28-2009, 08:45
get your permit. they are at the kiosk as you enter the park. at least when questioned you will have something to show the ridgerunner. make all atempts to follow your intended plan but plans do get alterd on occasion. when i did a section hike of the gsmnp i made sure i used the 50/50 rule. i never had a problem and that is partly due to my out of season schedule for hiking[nov thru march].

as for the shelter dwellers. 99.9% of the people i have met at a shelter have been great. i have never seen anyone swearing like a sailor, abuse drugs or alchol. some smoke butts but not many at all. i would rather stealth camp away from a shelter IMHO....

sheepdog
10-28-2009, 09:05
Should you bother? Well, if you want to be ethical and moral, the answer is obvious. Not to mention, if you want your son to see you being ethical and moral ... or not.

Remember, "character" isn't what you do when the Ranger is standing over you checking your permit. Your true character is what you do when no one is watching. Have some pride in yourself and give your son some in you at the same time. Have a great father-and-son hike!

Rain:sunMan

.
well said Rain Man

sliderule
10-28-2009, 09:55
One truck had three Park Service rangers in it. They never did ask to see our permit, or anything.


Not everyone wearing a NPS uniform is a ranger. And not all rangers have the authority to issue citations; only those who are law enforcement certified have that privilege.




I guess it was one of those annual family reunion things that happens in the Smokies.

All under the guise of cemetery visitation.

sliderule
10-28-2009, 10:09
get your permit. they are at the kiosk as you enter the park.

That might depend on which of the 10+ ways one enters the park. The exact locations of the 15 self-service permit stations are available on the park website. That site, does, however contain obsolete information regarding the sites which require a reservation.

Marta
10-28-2009, 12:34
Not everyone wearing a NPS uniform is a ranger. And not all rangers have the authority to issue citations; only those who are law enforcement certified have that privilege.


Good point. I didn't talk to them, so I don't know what sort they were. Besides, I had a permit, so I was hoping they'd come ask for it.

Chaco Taco
10-28-2009, 17:41
The lesson is that hiking the AT in the GSNP is the worst section to hike on the entire AT.

Forgot to add, "In my opinion"

ChinMusic
10-28-2009, 18:29
Forgot to add, "In my opinion"
True, but so many Trail Journals seem to state the same thing. Heck, it was even more than Bryson could take, not that he needed much of an excuse.

I like the Smokies, but I've liked just about every section I've done.

Mags
10-28-2009, 18:39
I like the Smokies, but I've liked just about every section I've done.

I think the Smokies are like national parks in general. Beautiful areas marred by lots of red tape.

I don't backpack in Rocky Mtn NP anymore because I don't want to pay $20 for a permit, lug a bear canister, go to the backcountry office and so on.

I understand why there are regs (well, except for the bear canisters. But, that's another thread!)


OTOH, does not mean I have to go there when there are other areas nearby that are less crowded, restrictive and expensive. :)

Jack Tarlin
10-28-2009, 19:30
The Smokies are the worst section of the entire Trail to hike??

Geez, I dunno about that one.

Anyone who's done Massachusetts in late July during the height of mosquito season (and this essentially means anyone who's hiked the A.T. Northbound in any given year!!) would probably disagree with this.

I'd take the Smokies over this any time.

Blissful
10-28-2009, 19:59
I'll also take it over the 30 mile stecoah section just before you get there...
Anyway from Double Springs north in GSMNP is very nice, though I did like the view from Shuckstack

:)

Chaco Taco
10-28-2009, 20:03
Ive done the AT through the Smokies 3 times and always have ablast. I dont care for the shelters but the trail is great, the views are awesome. To say its the worst section...... The other trails in the Smokies are awesome, atleats the ones I have done. Lots of ways to be secluded