Ways to Improve Hanover NH

[Jack Tarlin]

I have just received a very interesting letter from a local town official.

It appears there is going to be a meeting of town officials, citizens, college representatives, folks from the business community, and anyone else who is interested.

The focus of the meeting (to which I expect to be invited when they choose a date) is to discuss how the Hanover experience can be improved for hikers.

Since I'll be going there representating the long-distance hikers, I wanted to share this with you guys.......so if you were at this meeting, what would YOU suggest?

And please keep in mind, let's hear some concrete suggestions, not abstract stuff like "Your restaurants aren't that great!" or "The hotel is too expensive!"

Let's have some real ideas, OK?

In no particular order, here are some of my suggestions:

*It'd be great if one of the local businesses, perhaps on of the several out-
door stores, could erect some sort of hiker shower for the season and
charge a nominal fee for its use and upkeep. Hikers would benefit and so
would patrons and staffs of local businesses, restaurants, etc.

*The local free bus service is great; perhaps some stops could be added, like
the laundromat that's a bit out of town, or the popular Sunset Inn. This
would help the hikers who plan to patronize these businesses and would
save them some road walking/hitching.

*I know that in Waynesboro VA hikers can get a list of friendly locals, mostly
retired folks, who volunteer to help hikers with shuttles, as Waynesboro is a
bit off the Trail as are many stores and services. I'd like to see the same
program initiated in Hanover to help hikers who needed to get to West
Lebanon, or the airport, or the Amtrak station in White River, etc. The
present free bus service is great, but it stops early and doesn't run every
day. Therefore, a current list of friendly locals that hikers could call would
be a great help.

Anyway, those are my quick ideas that I plan to present in one form or another at the meeting.

Anyone have any others?

[Blissful]

(now this may have changed since '07) But I was concerned about the tenting available near Hanover - we noticed when we were there back in '07 interesting characters who had pitched their tents just in the woods there (one guy looked like he had been there quite a while). It made me uneasy hiking in this area, let alone staying there if I ever wanted to. Are there patrols for this or maybe something can be done as far as monitoring this area for safety. (?)

[Flush2wice]

free iced tea refills

[Jack Tarlin]

Blissful:

The only problem with your suggestion is that hikers would bitch and complain if the area WAS patrolled! :D

Unfortunately, it's free and open public camping, so at present, people stay there at their own risk.

(That being said, I've never heard about problems there like violence or theft,
tho there have been problems with excessive campfires, noise, and garbage).

[max patch]

Jack, when I thru'd you could shower at the Dartmouth gym.

[Jack Tarlin]

Max:

The staff at the gym still allows this, on occasion, depending on who is working. Usually, tho, due to security/insurance reasons, they no longer feel they can offer this service, or they seldmom offer it to male hikers.

There was a pretty horrible double homicide in town a few years ago, Max, and the town and especially the College became much more security conscious as a result. Unfortunately, some of this concern affected hikers and continues to do so.

[Jack Tarlin]

Ramble on:

I think your comments re. Dartmouth's "proprietorship" of the Trail attitude is absolutely worth discussing and I also think that larger groups, including freshman orientation trips, should avoid shelters. I will certainly bring this up to any College or Outing Club folks who attend the meeting.

[Tin Man]

Jack, it's an expensive town. No way around that. Hiker's are on a budget. Give them a map to the inexpensive spots, which are few and far between, or, like I suggested, give them an option to bypass town. Not a hijack or being an idiot. Those are legitimate comments by hikers. If nothing else, you can use these messages to show the town how hikers perceive Hanover. Don't expect everyone to be all ga-ga with happy suggestions. Skipping Hanover is a happy suggestion, by the way. :) I think the people in Kent would prefer people skip town and I betcha the people who want to make Hanover hiker friendly are in the minority.


Ahh, It is much adieu over nothing really. Quit being so high and mighty.

[Ramble~On]

Typical.

Here's the news: People that don't like it in Hanover can keep right on walking thru.

I assure you that many residents could care less.



Yeah...we kinda got that impression and perhaps the town itself would rather have a blue blaze as well. I'm happy to hear that there are folks interested in making improvements...I wonder how many own businesses along the trail which also doubles as the town's main street.
If there was a blue blaze that bypassed town and passed by the coop before the treeline...I'd take it. Not wanting to be "smart" but honest.

The orientation groups at shelters isn't limited to Dartmouth...Every year...everywhere..widespread issue. But it could be addressed to DOC because it did "seem" that the Dartmouth groups seemed "proud" that it was "their" shelter.

[Tin Man]

Ramble on:

I think your comments re. Dartmouth's "proprietorship" of the Trail attitude is absolutely worth discussing and I also think that larger groups, including freshman orientation trips, should avoid shelters. I will certainly bring this up to any College or Outing Club folks who attend the meeting.

Ah, if the freshman avoid shelters, where are they to go?? Dartmouth students are only a small part of the orientation shelter non-issue. In fact, I have run into a lot of orientation kids and none were from Dartmouth.

[Jack Tarlin]

Tin Man:

Hikers need to cross the Connecticut River and the bridges are few and far between, so don't look for the Trail to be removed from Hanover anytime soon.

As to those who wish to skip the various things that Hanover has to offer, it has been said before: They can keep on walking. Hanover is like any other Trail town located on or near the Appalachian Trail: Nobody is forced to spend any time there. I have walked from the Town Green to the Soccer field many, many times, Tin Man. In fact, I usually do it every day. It takes about six minutes to get thru Hanover and it's a nice flat roadwalk. Anyone not interested in this place can keep right on truckin'.

[Jack Tarlin]

Tin Man:

It should also be pointed out that hikers already have a pretty good list of inexpensive or free things in Hanover, as the Trail guidebooks they all carry list these places, such as the perfectly free campsite on the edge of town; the free bus service that connects local communities; the free places where they are welcome to leave their packs or go-online; the restaurant that gives out free Pizza; the free Art Museum; the place with daily All You Can Eat specials; and so on.

In point of fact, Tin Man, when it comes to offering stuff for free or discounted, Hanover actually does better than a lot of other places. :-?

[The Solemates]

honestly, we skipped hanover all together. we werent keen on the yuppieneess.

we did make two stops though. one for ice cream, the other to purchase food. BUT, we ended up not purchasing much food: an inexpensive (or alternative) to the food co-op would be advantageous. we simply were not going to pay those prices.

[Tin Man]

Tin Man:

Hikers need to cross the Connecticut River and the bridges are few and far between, so don't look for the Trail to be removed from Hanover anytime soon.

As to those who wish to skip the various things that Hanover has to offer, it has been said before: They can keep on walking. Hanover is like any other Trail town located on or near the Appalachian Trail: Nobody is forced to spend any time there. I have walked from the Town Green to the Soccer field many, many times, Tin Man. In fact, I usually do it every day. It takes about six minutes to get thru Hanover and it's a nice flat roadwalk. Anyone not interested in this place can keep right on truckin'.

Actually, I was thinking it would be better to go over the bridge north of town and through quieter, prettier sections of NH. I have driven it and I like it much better. Bigger reroute than may be possible, but I can see a better route through Hanover than straight down the main drag where are the high brows hang out turning there nose up at hikers and where all the expensive shops are located.

If you want to make Hanover more hiker friendly, educate the residents, not the hikers.

[modiyooch]

I had trouble at the road crossing. Maybe it's my fault because I don't carry a map or detailed description of the trail, but I usually get confused once I hit town due to the lack of blazes/signs. Maybe, I just missed it.

[Jack Tarlin]

Solemates:

I agree with you wholeheartedly re. the prices at the Food Co-op; I try and shop there as seldom as possible. Unfortunately, the more reasonably priced supermarket in Hanover lost its lease and will not be replaced anytime soon. On the other hand, many hikers use the free bus service to get to Shaw's or Price Chopper in nearby West Lebanon, which are much more affordable.

[Tin Man]

Tin Man:

It should also be pointed out that hikers already have a pretty good list of inexpensive or free things in Hanover, as the Trail guidebooks they all carry list these places, such as the perfectly free campsite on the edge of town; the free bus service that connects local communities; the free places where they are welcome to leave their packs or go-online; the restaurant that gives out free Pizza; the free Art Museum; the place with daily All You Can Eat specials; and so on.

In point of fact, Tin Man, when it comes to offering stuff for free or discounted, Hanover actually does better than a lot of other places. :-?

Don't know about guidebooks. Can't be bothered. I betcha there are many more section hikers than thru-hikers and they, like me, can't be bothered either. What we can be bothered by is attitude and what we see as we walk through. Hanover ain't hiker friendly and a meeting ain't gonna change residents attitudes toward hikers.

[Ramble~On]

reply to Jack's #24
True that...but it would be nice to be able to hike the AT...the entire AT...without being looked at like you're a rapist, homeless person or some sort of crazed maniac. I didn't find that possible through Hanover...although I will admit to being a bit of a maniac, homeless for extended periods, crazed...but I'm no rapist or criminal.
Actually....the trail sharing the sidewalk through this town...is always gonna provide a "special" experience for anyone hiking it when mom and dad are dropping their kid off at the little N.E. school.

[SassyWindsor]

I just looked in my file from 2001 and located a ticket that me and friends where presented. Town of Hanover Ordinance 32, was sited. We were drying out our back packed items. Police noticed bottle of booze with seal--not intact. This from being soaking wet, bottle full. I remember this ordinance being unfriendly toward hikers thru the town. You just stated "I assure you that many residents could care less". My experience is they care even less about smelly hikers. Unlike those with me, I hold no grudge, and would have never brought this up until you created this thread. Maybe the situation is a little different now, maybe not. That said, I would have no problem of the AT by-passing town.

[Tin Man]

I had trouble at the road crossing. Maybe it's my fault because I don't carry a map or detailed description of the trail, but I usually get confused once I hit town due to the lack of blazes/signs. Maybe, I just missed it.

Or maybe 4 miles (or whatever) of pavement starting in VT ain't exactly a trail. One of the longest road walks along the entire trail and for what? You get to town and ya ain't made to feel too welcome.

[modiyooch]

BUT, we ended up not purchasing much food: an inexpensive (or alternative) to the food co-op would be advantageous. we simply were not going to pay those prices. I initially thought the co-op was expensive until I found the items that were reasonable. yum. yum. Didn't buy anything else along the strip. $$$

[Jack Tarlin]

If the Trail were re-routed elsewhere, then I don't know where hikers would re-supply as the surrounding towns are all pretty small.

And there isn't much north of here for quite awhile.

So if we have to choose between a place with expensive re-supply, or going thru towns and hamlets with NO re-supply, I think this is kind of a no-brainer.

And the guidebooks I was referring to are the annual ones like the Handbook, Companion, etc. All of these books, without exception, contain information on free and discounted stuff, Tin Man, and all long-distance hikers carry these books.

And I take exception to the folks who find the town unfriendly. Hikers stayed for free for many many years at various college residences, and in days past, were welcome at a lot more local businesses and restaurants. They were also treated better by College and town law enforcement officials.

Unfortunately, it was not the behavior of students or towspeople that changed these policies or feelings.

[Bilge Rat]

There is a Beer/Pizza place that offers a free slice of pizza to hikers. :D

[Jack Tarlin]

Sassy:

Sorry you had a problem with the local police, but funny thing: Years ago, there was absolutely no prohibition whatsoever in town as far as open containers, i.e., as long as you were 21, not impaired, and not in anyone's way on the sidewalk, you could sit right smack in front of Town Hall and drink a beer if you wanted.

This was the town policy for many years.

And you guessed it.......it was the behavior of hikers that was principally responsible for getting this ordinance changed and made officials crack down on visible open containers.

Sometimes hikers are their own worst enemies, and what they come to term indifference or unfriendliness is, instead, a direct result of their own appearance or behavior.

In other words, the unfortunate problem you had with local cops wasn't a cop-based problem.

It was a hiker one. Once upon a time, the cops wouldn't have bothered you.

[Bulldawg]

And you guessed it.......it was the behavior of hikers that was principally responsible for getting this ordinance changed and made officials crack down on visible open containers.

Sometimes hikers are their own worst enemies, and what they come to term indifference or unfriendliness is, instead, a direct result of their own appearance or behavior.

In other words, the unfortunate problem you had with local cops wasn't a cop-based problem.

It was a hiker one. Once upon a time, the cops wouldn't have bothered you.

Are you sure it wasn't also maybe, just maybe some snot nosed bratty spoiled college kids??

[Tin Man]

Sure the towns north of Hanover are small, just like many trail towns, and don't have much in the way of re-supply. I'm guessing one or two of the little markets would start carrying appropriate stuff if people started hiking through. Duh? And I betcha they and those towns would be appreciative, much more appreciative than the folks of Hanover, just like they are in many smaller towns along the trail.

Hiker behavior has been discussed at length before. Poor behavior of a small minority has not helped anyone. Yet, high fallutin' folks in Hanover (and Kent) react (or overreact) more abrubtly and more stridenty than most other places where behavior ain't perfect all the time. Educate the folks of Hanover, the hikers aren't the problem.

[modiyooch]

I thought it was expensive; but not rude. matter of fact, we even had an off duty policeman stop outside of town to see if we needed assistance.

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, I know of hundreds of hikers who've had wonderful times in Hanover, and have returned on many occasions.

The record should show that it is only a strident few who repeatedly have mentioned what a bad time they had here or how negatively they view the place.

I can think of all sorts of folks, including dozens I met just this past year, who happily feel differently.

[Jack Tarlin]

And let me add one thing further: When it came to hikers getting hassled by Dartmouth Security people when they were discovered sleeping or passed out in college buildings, or when it came to the Soccer Field campsite almost being closed for any number of reasons a few years back, or when it came to the five Darmouth residence halls which one at a time, over several years, all decided they didn't want to put up hikers anymore.......please tell me, Tin Man, how hikers were not the problem here.

Sometimes hikers are their own worst enemy tho I realize this concept is evidently difficult for some folks to admit.

[The Weasel]

Jack:

It's been a few (5) years since I have been to Hanover/Norwich, but I think these probably make some sense still:

(1) Develop a bit of a "trail town relationship" with Norwich. Yes, Norwich thinks it's 'better' than Hanover, and is too pricey to really do much in. It's also part of the Hanover metro area, and the feeling of "keep on moving" in Norwich is a little strong.

(2) Taking an official "We're a Trail Town and Glad to Have Hikers" attitude, through the Chamber of Commerce, would be a good PR thing to help locals realize that hikers are a positive economic force. Hikers probably spend a relatively significant amount at stores, including the Co-Op, and the rough rule of thumb is that every $25,000 in local purchases supports one job. As a WAG ("wild ass guess"), AT hikers (both thru and section) probably put something north of $500,000 in food, hotel, gear and gasoline (sectioners) into town. That's probably about 20 jobs, and if a company announced it was going to bring 20 jobs to town, the Economic Development people in town would get real happy. A little appreciation would help local attitudes.

(3) Re-routing the Trail out of downtown isn't going to happen, not, at least, from the City; that's an AT thing. But it might help if there were a few signs along the downtown area (from the bridge up to leaving downtown) that said something prideful about hikers and the AT. The preppies and their mommies and daddies do make some nasty remarks and throw some ugly looks.

(4) Some kind of a Trail Recognition Day that wasn't an alcohol festival would be good. Perhaps there's some other "town day" or festival that could have a small component/booth/whatever to help educate people about the uniqueness of the AT relationship to Hanover. I'm not talking about a "Mini Trail Days" but some kind of annual "Appalachian Trail Recognition Day" that would get a speech from the mayor, a few column inches in the paper, whatever. Or even just an annual "proclamation". You get the idea.

(5) Have some kind of training program or forum of a couple of hours (max) for the local police about hikers, so that they are sensitized a bit more to hikers and also to get some of the police's concerns about hikers to the trail community.

Those are mine.

TW

[SassyWindsor]

.......it was the behavior of hikers that was principally responsible ......

All this time I thought it was because of the students that cause the wrath of the coppers. I now wonder why the trail hasn't been rerouted around the town. I assume hikers spending money both voluntarily(vendors) and involuntarily (fines) in Hanover makes them bearable. Maybe the AT thru Hanover needs to turn Blue and the main trail be rerouted around town. At least hikers would have a choice. See how the counsel feels about making the town more hiker friendly, if they oppose, then see how they feel about a trail relocation. At least then you will know if you need to waste anymore time with them.

[Bulldawg]

Actually, I know of hundreds of hikers who've had wonderful times in Hanover, and have returned on many occasions.

The record should show that it is only a strident few who repeatedly have mentioned what a bad time they had here or how negatively they view the place.

I can think of all sorts of folks, including dozens I met just this past year, who happily feel differently.


It's sounding more and more to me like quite a few, here at least, have a negative view of the town. Put a poll and let's see what the official consensus is.

[vthiker]

The next bridge north of Hanover is 10 miles away. I live in Thetford, where the bridge is. Due to existing development, there is no way to re-route the trail to avoid Hanover that I can see.

If the town is interested in seeing how it can improve its relationship with thru-hikers, it seems like there ought to be a good faith effort to come up with a list of real improvements they could make.

[Jack Tarlin]

Weasel:

Thank you for a very insightful post.

I particularly liked the idea of signage or something else to make people more aware of the Trail, maybe banners on lightposts or something like they have in Hot Springs (i.e. the A.T. signs in the pavement). People might be less likely to make spot judgments about people's clothes or appearance if they understood why these people were here in town in the first place, and your comments about pointing out the positive economic impact for the town is also an excellent idea.

[Jack Tarlin]

VT Hiker: Coming up with positive suggestions for improvements is precisely why I initiated this thread, and I appreciate the contributions of the folks whose comments have helped with this.

[modiyooch]

It's sounding more and more to me like quite a few, here at least, have a negative view of the town. Put a poll and let's see what the official consensus is.wb poll is not the official consensus. I have met far more hikers than WBers.

[saimyoji]

Towns, Hostels, Gatherings, Feeds, Dogs, Shelters maybe, hiker behavior a lot - this is what you post about. I don't hear you tell stories about what you see on the trail. I hike to see nature. I post links to pictures from time to time on what I see or drop in a scenic shot or a Moose pic or whatever. You hike and see everything but nature. Or did I miss that post. :rolleyes:


warren ain't around much, he's gotta find something....give him a break. :)

[Dogwood]

Jack, starting a thread with the title, 'Ways to Improve Hanover', is just the kind of forward thinking constructive post I expect from you.

Don't let the other stuff get you down. You'll get plenty of constructive and gowth oriented answers to your question. There are a lot more coming. You don't have to respond to or defend every off-topic or negative post.

Someone's asking for positive suggestions for improving a hiker's experience through town while improving upon the relationhsip the town has with hikers. C'mon folks give him some!

On my 06 thru-hike I spent a total of 4 days and 3 nights in Hanover and had a great time with nothing that comes to mind as needing to be improved upon. Serious!

Free pizza, restaurants, pubs/bars, co-op(sure a bit trendy and expensive but I'm a trendy kinda guy and besides it wasn't all that expensive since most of my resupply came from the bulk food bins, and if I was going to spend some extra money it might as well be on food that goes into my body to keep it healthy), good coffee(great sitting outside at the Cowboy Cafe tables in the morning watching all the co-eds and people rush by, PO, library, saw Jack in town(was a big help pointing everthing out and trying to answer my questions the best he could), outfitter(short bus ride away), public transportation to many national cities close-by, free camping(also AT shelter not too far out of town), not too many hotels/motels(weren't too many rooms available near town and what I found was too expensive for my budget to get a single room, just camped on someone's couch and in the woods instead, I think if I had approached some of the sudents for a room or some space I could have gotten it, bit of an upper crust intellectual vibe on Main St, but I never let that suff intimidate me and felt I was never being demeaned in any way despite having that hiker trash look and smell(actually several non-hiking people on the street approached me about hiking and asked if I was thru-hiking, got into several lengthy nice conversations with people that live there about all sorts of things), Smallish New England Ivy League College Town, what do you expect?

[Jack Tarlin]

Dogwood:

Thank you for your comments.

[Petr]

Jack, sorry if this constitutes thread drift but may I offer up a cliche?

Kill 'em with kindness.

Overly-privileged, sheltered brats are my people; I was born and raised among them and could very well be counted as one of them (notice the flagrant use of the semicolon? A sure marker of uppitiness). All of this outrage over getting denigrated by the elite from people who pridefully refer to themselves as hiker trash seems a bit counter-intuitive. If you catch the eye of a polo-wearing yuppie sneering at you, offer a friendly, yet simple, "How are you today, sir?" My brethren are well-trained to respond in kind.

Hell, it may even spark a conversation that could enlighten both parties of the relative merits of both lifestyles. Like it or not, the kids that are privileged, lucky, and hard-working enough to go to the Dartmouths of the world are often the ones that become the leaders in business, science, and politics that drive this country. Likewise, the hiker trash passing through town are often the ones that refresh the spirit of independence, freedom, and ball-busting that defines the idealized concept of America.

Rich A-holes summarily dismissing hikers as losers isn't right. Hikers summarily dismissing the socioeconomic elite of this country as rich A-holes isn't either. The reality of life is that these two groups rarely stroll past each other in everyday life. Will random "kill 'em with kindness" encounters change the world? No. Can it hurt? No. Seeing as we aren't doing anything besides walking, hikers may as well take the high road and make an effort to ignore prejudices and educate the overly-educated. Likewise, and if there were a whitecollar.net I would post something similar to this diatribe, the 'spoiled preppy brats' should lighten up and embrace the funk that is hiker nation and the alternate viewpoint it provides (isn't that the point of higher education?).

Conclusion: Communication between these two communities can't be a negative thing. Ultimately useless? Maybe. But, maybe not.

Petr

[Petr]

Oh no! It seems that while I was composing my last post this thread did indeed get moved to the straight-forward category. Meanwhile, my musings were anything but. Alas, I hope that it was apparent that I had only good intentions.

[Jack Tarlin]

I agree with you that there can't be anything negative about communication, which is why I think this meeting is a good idea, and why I'm grateful to the folks who've helped out with thoughtful ideas and suggestions.

[Dogwood]

I particularly liked the idea of signage or something else to make people more aware of the Trail, maybe banners on lightposts or something like they have in Hot Springs (i.e. the A.T. signs in the pavement). People might be less likely to make spot judgments about people's clothes or appearance if they understood why these people were here in town in the first place, and your comments about pointing out the positive economic impact for the town is also an excellent idea

See, Weasel and you are on to some good ideas JT!

I like this one! Maybe, just that, small AT flags on some lightposts or AT diamonds in the pavement will raise awareness. How about having a thru-hiker make a small speech at the Dartmouth Outing Club on campus relating trail and town life and how it impacts hikers and non-hikers. How about having a thru-hiker give a talk at one of the local outfitters?, get more business involved like the pizza restaurant(good pizza) giving away a free slice to hikers?

[A-Train]

I particularly liked the idea of signage or something else to make people more aware of the Trail, maybe banners on lightposts or something like they have in Hot Springs (i.e. the A.T. signs in the pavement). People might be less likely to make spot judgments about people's clothes or appearance if they understood why these people were here in town in the first place, and your comments about pointing out the positive economic impact for the town is also an excellent idea

See, Weasel and you are on to some good ideas JT!

I like this one! Maybe, just that, small AT flags on some lightposts or AT diamonds in the pavement will raise awareness. How about having a thru-hiker make a small speech at the Dartmouth Outing Club on campus relating trail and town life and how it impacts hikers and non-hikers. How about having a thru-hiker give a talk at one of the local outfitters?, get more business involved like the pizza restaurant(good pizza) giving away a free slice to hikers?


Good idea. There is a plaque in the pavement on the corner near the Hanover Inn announcing the presence of the AT from Georgia to Maine, though I doubt many pay attention to it.

Some sneering by parents of students is inevitable, doesn't seem like the biggest issue in the world. It'd be nice for Dartmouth admissions materials to mention Hanover being a home of the Appalachian Trail, but its not likely. Locals seem pretty aware of the trail and the hikers and I always had good interactions there.

This thread and concept makes me think of the whole 'you get out of life what you put into it', especially when it comes to mantaining an open mind about meeting new people

[Jack Tarlin]

Many thanks to the Moderator for moving the thread, and thanx again to all the folks who've (so far) offered some very good ideas and suggestions. Keep 'em coming!

[Petr]

Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but I sensed some restraint in Jack's last post. I think he may be distancing himself from the more political aspects of what I wrote. Thus, if anybody has any issues that they feel are worth addressing regarding my post that are not relevant to the OP, please PM me and avoid clouding what I feel to be a worthwhile thread.

Petr

[Petr]

Umm, the post before the last post. Damn lag time.

[Jack Tarlin]

Petr:

Nothing remotely wrong with your posts; keep 'em coming.

Hope I get to meet you when you get to Hanover.

[Petr]

Hope I have the intestinal fortitude to get that far.:rolleyes:

[Rockhound]

An affordable hostel would be nice. Although Staying at the frat house when they had a huge kegger with many scantily dressed coeds was nice. Contrary to what some may say you can still stay at the frats. You just have to know the right people or be the right people.

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, very few (like way less than 5% of the hikers that passed thru town) were welcome or were put up at Dartmouth houses this year and I personally met many who were turned away. On rare occasions, hikers might luck out but it would be a mistake to anticipate or expect this sort of hospitality. For the most part, this longtime tradition is dead.

And unfortunately, Hanover is a wealthy, fairly exclusive town. People that live in $800,00 houses generally don't want to turn them into hiker bunkhouses, and their neighbors wouldn't be too thrilled about the prospect, either. A hiker hostel within walking distance of downtown is not likely to appear anytime soon.

[johnnybgood]

Pardon me for barging in but I have been following the discussions and find it an interesting read.

Having never visited Hanover either as a hiker coming through or as a citizen arriving by car I sense that the community understandlably embraces the University as an intregral partner in the financial health of their city.

Having said that I would also believe that a cooperative balance can be struck in regards to how Hanover cajoles the University in becoming a better host to hikers.
Also Jack , why has there been resistance toward building a hostel in town ?

I enjoyed immensely my visit to NH back in the summer and have been looking at someday making that a possible place to spend my retirement.

Just my 2 cents worth.... for whatever that is worth.;)

[chiefduffy]

Probably way too much to hope for, but some kind of center/kiosk, where info would be available for hikers concerning shuttles, resupply, etc, and info for the townies on trail facts, customs, etc. At least the hikers would know the town acknowledges them, and the townies might actually learn something about the hiker trash in their midst.

Keep fighting the good fight , Jack

- Duffy,

[Kaptain Kangaroo]

Great work Jack...keep at it.... must be disappointing to try to help people only to have some of them dump on you.

I agree with the posts about trying to improve the information available, both to hikers and townspeople. Hanover does have some services that are fantastic for hikers (like the bus service) and I had a great town stop there. But it is somewhere you feel a little out of place when you first arrive after slogging through 4 days of mud ;-). Some way of communicating to hikers about the town would be useful eg. bus service details, locations of grocery stores, laundry, showers etc. Maybe a sign board near the bridge & maybe some brochures for hikers to take away with the key information.
The hiker shower would be a fantastic facility for both the hikers & the rest of the town. No matter how 'natural' your hiker stench is, no-one really wants to share it with you while having their lunch !
The locals seem pretty aware of the trail & the true identity of the hairy, smelly people hanging out on Main St, but perhaps some way of informing the families visiting their kids at college would be helpful. Maybe include a section in any orientation information the college gives to new students & their parents.

I really enjoyed my short time in Hanover. People were friendly & I found everything I needed in town. I think it is a credit to the town that they are even asking the question about hikers. The $$$ that hikers put into the local economy are nothing compared to those pumped in by the students & their families.

Good luck with it Jack !!

Cheers,

Kaptain Kangaroo

[max patch]

Also Jack , why has there been resistance toward building a hostel in town ?



There used to be a church hostel years ago, but hiker conduct put the end to that.

I spent 3 days in Hanover on my thru -- by far the most time I spent in town anywhere -- and experienced none of the negative comments that have been expressed in this thread. The town is apparently trying to figure out what they can do differently to make the town a better experience. Lets hope the hikers do the same.

[double d]

I've been to Hanover numereous times, the last time was this past July of 09 when I was hiking the AT through Vermont. Hanover is a wonderful town, so in my opinion, why try to change what Hanover is: a fairly wealthy, semi-rural Ivy league college town? Hanover has places to eat, places to buy food and places to buy gear, but it isn't an AT town so to speak, its a college town that happens to have the AT pass through it. The college in Hanover does have a building where AT hikers can use some of its amenties (internet connection, atm machines, a school cafe area, etc.). Jack lives in Hanover because he likes it, and I can see why, many folks like living in or near a college town, they are great places to live. The AT does pass through the heart of the town and its cool to see the whiteblazes in Hanover, but keep the town the way it is, we as Americans are always trying to find the "new and improved" product, that we sometimes forget to realize that most things that we like are wonderful just the way they are.

[peakbagger]

About the only thing I would recomend is an up to date AT hiker information board on either side of town. The key is to have it in a acessible location, keep it up to date and under the control of an organization, possbily set up so that in order to update it would require a key. The tough part is that in a college town, I would expect that any flat surface that wasnt controlled probably ends up pasted with flyers for bands. The worse thing is for the info to be out of date. The logical place on the north end of town would be at the CoOp gas station, but not sure where on the southerly approach woudl be a good place.

[Spokes]

How about providing some in-service training for Dirt Cowboy Cafe workers on how to be non-arrogant?

Not only is the coffee strong, so is the attitude!!!

[buff_jeff]

You want my honest opinion? Hikers are spoiled enough. The town is fine. If it has a restaurant and a place to resupply, there's nothing hikers need. The provided campsite on the edge of town is really nice, too.

Hanover shouldn't have to go out of its way to help hikers on vacation.

[Blue Jay]

There used to be a church hostel years ago, but hiker conduct put the end to that.

I spent 3 days in Hanover on my thru -- by far the most time I spent in town anywhere -- and experienced none of the negative comments that have been expressed in this thread. The town is apparently trying to figure out what they can do differently to make the town a better experience. Lets hope the hikers do the same.

I agree 100%. The best way to make Hanover better would be to improve hiker conduct.
Maybe a mandatory class in how to remember being a decent human prior to each trail town. I have hiker through Hanover many times always loved it and I'm still upset fools have closed down the many places I've stayed in the past.

[Many Walks]

First, we liked Hanover. We used to live in the country fairly close to a university town so the culture didn't bother us a bit. We treated people in Hanover with respect and everyone we met was good to us. We stopped to eat, went to an outfitter and a few other shops, ate again and headed back out to the trail. As for prices, expect them to be a bit higher, but if that's a big deal don't buy the goods and head for the woods.


I didn't get the impression that people were looking down on us. People in the businesses knew what we were doing and were supportive. We got some curious looks from visitors with the packs and stuff, but we used the opportunity to engage people and once they learned what we were doing they seemed to be intrigued. The bottom line for me is if a hiker acts like trash, we'll be treated like trash. If we respect others, we can expect respect in return.


As far a suggestions-



I like your suggestion about a place on the outskirts for hikers to clean up. Showers would be a good start for anyone going into Hanover to start on a positive note.
If possible it would be great to have some lockers located with the showers for short term storage of gear while hikers go into town. It gets a little awkward in town with all the gear and it would be good for hikers and the proprietors to not have to deal with it.
It would be great if the town and the Dartmouth Outing Club would consider establishing a pavilion on the outskirts with these amenities along with adjacent tent camping and info about Hanover, possibly on the bus route. A charge for a showers, lockers and camping is reasonable. The Outing Club could staff it with Caretakers in the busy times with proceeds going to the club. This might solve some problems and create a base for hikers to enjoy the town.
I like the idea of including an explanation of the AT in the College orientation for both students and parents. There is a very fine line between vagrants and thru hikers. I think if the parents understood what we were doing it would garner more interest and fewer sneers.
We also got a bit turned around in town with the signage not being clear for the AT route. Maybe that could be improved. There is a lot to take in with the shops, food, people and all so it would be helpful if it stood out a bit more.

Jack, I like what you're doing to participate in improving relations between the town and hikers and hope some of this negativity can go away. Personally, I think it's a great town and this looks like a good opportunity to make some relatively small changes that could make a big difference in the way it's perceived. Good luck!

[Speer Carrier]

I've only been to Hanover once. That was in 1969, and I was on my way back to Albany, New York from having played golf in Woodstock, VT. I thought it was a great little college town at that time. Our group stopped for lunch and a few brews. I've never hiked though the place.

Having said that, I think all of us hikers should accept the trail as we find it. I don't think any town has to feel compelled to do anything extra for hikers that they wouldn't do for it's own citizens, or for any other visitor to the area. I only have about 600 miles under my belt on the AT, none of it north of Front Royal, VA. so I'm no expert on interpersonal relationships between hiker and towns, especially in the north. The only towns I've hiked through are Hot Springs,and Damascus. I enjoyed Hot Springs. it took all of about a half hour to walk through including a stop at Paddler's Pub for a beer. I enjoyed Damascus, too. It took all of a half hour to walk through that town as well, which included a stop at Dot's for a brew. I found both towns to be pretty quiet, and I didn't feel that the citizens or businesses regarded me or the folks with whom I was hiking with anything but indifference. Once we were on the other side of town, it was just the trail as usual.

Jack, I think Hanover ought to just say, we are what we are. Take us or leave us. Stop and enjoy yourselves knowing it is not the least expensive stop on your adventure, or just pass on through.

[Pony]

What kind of relationship does Dartmouth have with the town and the various organizations involved with the Appalachian Trial? It seems to me that the college could have a great influence on not only the students, but the town as well. Why not have some film student that's interested in hiking make a documentary and present it as part of incoming students orientation. Every college town I've ever been in, the university or college collaborates with local businesses and organizations. Why couldn't the same be done with the AT? I've never been to Hanover, so I really don't know.

Also, does Hanover have one of those signs that post various mileages to places along the trail? I always thought those things were cool and maybe it will spark a subtle interest in people walking by.

[Montana]

Honestly, I liked the town. The only problem I had was actually finding the trail through town. As previously mentioned, some AT diamonds in the sidewalk, like Hotsprings, would go a long ways towards explaining what all the dirty long-hairs are doing, and would make route finding much easier. Signage could also be erected at the College Green to explain what the AT is, and provide some information about what the DOC does for the trail.

I camped on the north end of town on the field where the trail disappears back into the woods. I was uncertain if this was "legal", so I waited until after dark to setup camp. A pavilion with restrooms/showers/lockers at this location would be ideal, as there is no good alternative in town.

[Jeff]

How about providing some in-service training for Dirt Cowboy Cafe workers on how to be non-arrogant?

Not only is the coffee strong, so is the attitude!!!

I was treated well at the Dirt Cowboy. Guess it all depends on who is serving the customer.

[Dogwood]

......

Some sneering by parents of students is inevitable, doesn't seem like the biggest issue in the world. It'd be nice for Dartmouth admissions materials to mention Hanover being a home of the Appalachian Trail, but its not likely. Locals seem pretty aware of the trail and the hikers and I always had good interactions there.

This thread and concept makes me think of the whole 'you get out of life what you put into it', especially when it comes to mantaining an open mind about meeting new people. - A-Train

I enjoyed immensely my visit to NH back in the summer and have been looking at someday making that a possible place to spend my retirement. - Johnny B Good

I really enjoyed my short time in Hanover. People were friendly & I found everything I needed in town. I think it is a credit to the town that they are even asking the question about hikers. The $$$ that hikers put into the local economy are nothing compared to those pumped in by the students & their families. - Kaptain Kangaroo

I spent 3 days in Hanover on my thru -- by far the most time I spent in town anywhere -- and experienced none of the negative comments that have been expressed in this thread. The town is apparently trying to figure out what they can do differently to make the town a better experience. Lets hope the hikers do the same. - MaxPatch

I've been to Hanover numereous times, the last time was this past July of 09 when I was hiking the AT through Vermont. Hanover is a wonderful town, so in my opinion, why try to change what Hanover is: a fairly wealthy, semi-rural Ivy league college town? Hanover has places to eat, places to buy food and places to buy gear, ..... its a college town that happens to have the AT pass through it. The college in Hanover does have a building where AT hikers can use some of its amenties (internet connection, atm machines, a school cafe area, .... The AT does pass through the heart of the town and its cool to see the whiteblazes in Hanover, but keep the town the way it is, we as Americans are always trying to find the "new and improved" product, that we sometimes forget to realize that most things that we like are wonderful just the way they are. - double d


You want my honest opinion? Hikers are spoiled enough. The town is fine. If it has a restaurant and a place to resupply, there's nothing hikers need. The provided campsite on the edge of town is really nice, too....- BuffJeff

I agree 100%. The best way to make Hanover better would be to improve hiker conduct.
Maybe a mandatory class in how to remember being a decent human prior to each trail town. I have hiker through Hanover many times always loved it and I'm still upset fools have closed down the many places I've stayed in the past. - Blue Jay

First, we liked Hanover.... so the culture didn't bother us a bit. We treated people in Hanover with respect and everyone we met was good to us. - Many Walks

Having said that, I think all of us hikers should accept the trail as we find it. I don't think any town has to feel compelled to do anything extra for hikers that they wouldn't do for it's own citizens, or for any other visitor to the area. Jack, I think Hanover ought to just say, we are what we are. Take us or leave us. Stop and enjoy yourselves knowing it is not the least expensive stop on your adventure, or just pass on through. -Speer Carrier


I'm not going to list all the positive Hanover responses here(too much copying and pasting for me), but Im beginning to notice something.

[Dogwood]

The positive posts involve those who have a non-confrontational and non-chip on my shoulder sense of entitlement atitude, which no one likes. I also notice the ones who had the best time in Hanover are the one's who were aware that their behavior and the behavior of the hiking community affects others. It seems those who had a good experience in Hanover sought to get along with others even when others came from different social, cultural, economic, etc circles. They have that, it is what it is, roll with it, I'm going to enjoy my hike no matter what mentality. HUMM!

[Jester2000]

I was treated well at the Dirt Cowboy. Guess it all depends on who is serving the customer.

I too was treated well there. In fact, I was treated pretty well everywhere. I got momentarily stuck in Hanover because I was there over Labor Day weekend, and had a package at the PO. Two of the nights I was there I stayed at a student's apartment. Good pizza, good bar (5 Olde), good ice cream. Didn't lose the trail in town.

On the one hand, I do see the point of posters who say the town shouldn't do anything different. Hanover is one of those places along the trail that has other things going on besides the AT, and that's fine. If a hiker can't manage getting by in a non-hikercentric town for a day, they probably should have learned to be a little more adaptable over the previous hundreds of miles.

On the other hand, if people in the town are actively soliciting ideas on how to do a better job of welcoming hikers, I think that's marvelous. I think a nice explanatory sign or two is a great idea -- I know that tourists in Harpers Ferry get a kick out of saying they've been on the AT, if only for a block or two, and, like Hanover, most people in town are not here because of the trail.

I also think a dedicated bulletin board for hikers at a central location would be nice -- DOC may have something like this available, but if Dirt Cowboy would put one up it would be right on the trail and hard to miss.

As for maving the trail away from town: if they did that, where else on the trail would I get to gawk at college girls?

[Jack Tarlin]

Wow, great posts and feedback today, guys, thanks to all who wrote. Sure glad we put this discussion on "straightforward" so the thread stayed on-topic for those who actually wanted to say something useful.

In re. to the recent comments:

*An info kiosk is a good idea, tho one essentially exists anyway, in the basement of the
Dartmouth Outing Club Building, a place where hikers already seem to find their own
way to. But a small bulletin board letting other folks know about the existence of the
Trail might be a good idea, and might help answer people's questions about who all the
bearded freaks with packpacks are.

*I like the idea of raising awareness about the Trail, either with banners or some other
way. I came up with an interesting idea last night, which is to actually blaze the sidewalk
thru Hanover (saving money over building plaques or something imbedded in the pave-
ment like in Hot Springs, which looks great, but would cost a lot of money to replicate).

Letting people know about the Trail would benefit everyone. Another idea is to have a
simple Trail festival (not alcohol oriented or Trail Days-like), perhaps on the town green,
sometime in August when there are a lot of hikers passing thru. Hopefully, hopefully,
the Outing Club would actively participate. Interested locals could find out about the
Trail, the DOC and ATC could provide literature, and here's the fun part.....we could then
blaze the Trail with volunteer help, including kids, townspeople, etc. The event would
also get good local press as the local paper has several good outdoor writers who'd
happily cover such an event. Local Scout groups might want to particpate too.....creating
and hanging attractive banners or signs along the Trail thru town would, in my opinion,
be a great Eagle project.

*Sorry, but a hiker "pavillion" or actual campsite on the edge of town (the North edge)
won't happen and is a lousy idea. Neither the town nor the College nor the Outing Club
is in a position to monitor or maintain this place, and hikers aren't willing to pay for it, i.e.
an "honor system" payment like a tube or donation box would get ignored. Plus, a place
for hikers to crash a few hundred yards from a place that sells beer simply isn't going to
work. There have already been problems with college and town officials (and local
residents whose houses are just yards away) in regards to parties, big bonfires, noise
at night, garbage, etc. A pavillion, shelter, or permanent structure, regrettably would
only make this worse, and a place where hikers hung out every night would also attract
non-hikers, trail bums, local teens, etc., and in short, a pavillion without permanent on-
site supervision would only hurt town/hiker relations rather than improve them. There
was already a problem this year with hiker or alleged hiker types essentially moving into
the soccer field campsites for days or weeks at a time and creating all sorts of problems;
this would be much worse if there was a permanent pavillion and structure there. In
short, I think it's great that there's a real shelter a bit NORTH of here already, meaning
people have to actually hike a bit to get to it. But creating a hiker hang-out on the edge
of town would be a disaster in my opinion. And for those who disagree......sorry, but
no Trail town is under any sort of obligation to provide this sort of thing to hikers. Does
Hiawassee do this? Or Franklin? Gatlinburg? Hot Springs? Erwin? Damascus? Bland?
Pearisburg? and so on..... Sorry, folks, but I'm starting to see people expect stuff
from Hanover and Hanover residents that nobody else on the Trail provides, including
wealthy communties like Kent, Cornwall Bridge, Salisbury, Great Barrington, Williams-
town, Bennington, Manchester Center, etc. Hikers are on a 6 month vacation......no
community is under any obligation to spend town/community and or law enforcement
time and resources (or funding) giving thru-hikers a free place to crash and party.
Sorry to disappoint on this one, folks, but neither the town of Hanover or the College is
going to provide a "pavillion" for thru-hikers. This is a nice idea in theory but regrettably,
it's a totally unrealistic one. Hikers won't pay for such a place and would abuse the hell
of it; neither the town or the College or the Outing Club is willing to pay for the building
and permanent maintenance/care of the place, and resultant problems with such a
facility would only WORSEN town/hiuker relations. Sometimes, reality is a bitter pill.

Anyway, folks, some great comments today, keep 'em coming.

[Montana]

*Sorry, but a hiker "pavillion" or actual campsite on the edge of town (the North edge)
won't happen and is a lousy idea. Neither the town nor the College nor the Outing Club
is in a position to monitor or maintain this place, and hikers aren't willing to pay for it, i.e.
an "honor system" payment like a tube or donation box would get ignored. Plus, a place
for hikers to crash a few hundred yards from a place that sells beer simply isn't going to
work. There have already been problems with college and town officials (and local
residents whose houses are just yards away) in regards to parties, big bonfires, noise
at night, garbage, etc. A pavillion, shelter, or permanent structure, regrettably would
only make this worse, and a place where hikers hung out every night would also attract
non-hikers, trail bums, local teens, etc., and in short, a pavillion without permanent on-
site supervision would only hurt town/hiker relations rather than improve them. There
was already a problem this year with hiker or alleged hiker types essentially moving into
the soccer field campsites for days or weeks at a time and creating all sorts of problems;
this would be much worse if there was a permanent pavillion and structure there. In
short, I think it's great that there's a real shelter a bit NORTH of here already, meaning
people have to actually hike a bit to get to it. But creating a hiker hang-out on the edge
of town would be a disaster in my opinion. And for those who disagree......sorry, but
no Trail town is under any sort of obligation to provide this sort of thing to hikers. Does
Hiawassee do this? Or Franklin? Gatlinburg? Hot Springs? Erwin? Damascus? Bland?
Pearisburg? and so on..... Sorry, folks, but I'm starting to see people expect stuff
from Hanover and Hanover residents that nobody else on the Trail provides, including
wealthy communties like Kent, Cornwall Bridge, Salisbury, Great Barrington, Williams-
town, Bennington, Manchester Center, etc. Hikers are on a 6 month vacation......no
community is under any obligation to spend town/community and or law enforcement
time and resources (or funding) giving thru-hikers a free place to crash and party.
Sorry to disappoint on this one, folks, but neither the town of Hanover or the College is
going to provide a "pavillion" for thru-hikers. This is a nice idea in theory but regrettably,
it's a totally unrealistic one. Hikers won't pay for such a place and would abuse the hell
of it; neither the town or the College or the Outing Club is willing to pay for the building
and permanent maintenance/care of the place, and resultant problems with such a
facility would only WORSEN town/hiuker relations. Sometimes, reality is a bitter pill.

A multi-purpose facility at this location does not have to be a drain on the town as you think it would be. I don't know what the fields are currently used for, but I could see the school/city using them for pewee soccer/football/baseball, and a restroom/shower facility would be a great benefit for this use alone.

You do bring up the completely valid issue of funding, but if this facility was designed to be multi-use, and was a benefit to the town in addition to hikers, I don't think it would pose much of a problem. A joint partnership between the town, the school, and the DOC/ATC could probably come up with plan that was acceptable to all parties without much effort.

As to the pavilion idea, I could see the potential problems that you mention, but I really doubt it would be as bad as you think. I stayed the night in Port Clinton's pavilion, and didn't see any of the problems that you brought up. Garbage cans were provided, and hikers had no problem using them. A police officer simply pulling into the (currently non-existent) parking lot sometime after dinner but before dark would scare off anyone planning a large party. Hiring someone to watch over such a place full time would be unnecessary.

Hanover has a great asset in the trail, and I don't think it would hurt to play it up a bit more than they currently are. I like the idea of the diamond shaped plaques in the sidewalk because it would fit the character of the town and provide a talking point for visitors. Whereas white paint on the sidewalk would look tacky, and would do nothing to explain what all the people with backpacks were doing. Either option would fix the route finding problem that I mentioned in my previous post.

You seem to think that we expect the town to cater to us hikers. I don't think anyone (sane) expects the town to do anything, and most of us would be just as happy if things were left the way they are. You asked for suggestions on making the town more hospitable to hikers, and I think that is what you have been given.

[Peaks]

It's going to be a big challenge for a town like Hanover to provide hiker ameneties, like hostel, or camping. Perhaps the best one can hope for is better bus service to the surrounding area for laundry, outfitter, etc.

[Jack Tarlin]

Lemme get this straight:

Blazes or paint on the sidewalk is tacky, but plaques in the sidewalk are cool.

Um, forgive me for asking, but who do you expect to pay for this project, cuz the town sure won't.

They're laying off teacher's assistants in the elementary school and cutting back the staff at the library but you think the citizens of the town should pay untold thousands of dollars to bit brass A.T. markers in the sidewalks?

Um, sorry, it ain't happening anytime soon.

As to the "pavillion", I'm glad you didn't see any problems at the Pavillion in Port Clinton when you were there, but you should know that the spot has had continual problems and is very much threatened in terms of it staying open. You should also know it's NOT a public or town owned or supported facility, i.e. NO public funds go into its support.

In regards to Hanover, the idea of a "multi-use" pavillion by the soccer field just doesn't work. The facilty wouldn't be "multi-use" as other than hikers, nobody would need such a facility at this location: Locals neither need, would use, or would want to pay for a public bathhouse or shower facility; nor would they want to picnic or hang out there, and obviously wouldn't need to overnight there. Likewise, neither would any Dartmouth or Outing Club people. So how on earth could such a place ever be "multi-use"?

A permanent building or pavillion or whatever at this location would do nothing but become a magnet for problems. As I said earlier, who would pay for the erection and maintenance of this facility? The hikers certainly won't help out with this. They routinely don't pay a cent for staying at hostels like the Place in Damascus or they screw out of paying a dime at private "donation" hostels like Kincora. A voluntary "honor" payment system here in Hanover would fail miserably, and as for permanent staffing of the location, to ensure that fees were paid and that rules were obeyed, who is going to supply or pay for this? And never mind that a permanent hiker facility five minutes away from bars and restaurants, minutes from the high school, and forty seconds walk from a beer store simply isn't going to work and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. There was a semi-permanent campsite at this location this year.....and it repeatedly drew undesirables, had its share of problems, and only served to damage relations between hikers and nearby residents, as well as town officials and police. A permanent facility, ostensibly built for the community at large but used primarily as a free crash pad for hikers would only generate problems and not solve them.

You end your post by denying you expect Hanover to cater for hikers, but you think the town should put up, maintain, insure, clean, and patrol a facility for transient travelers that are on a voluntary six month vacation, a journey made possible by the fact that none of them have to work or worry about bills for six months.

Sorry. This certainly IS expecting Hanover to cater to hikers. As I said earlier, please tell me anywhere else on or near the Trail where a community provides such a service, and if you can't come up with such a location, please tell us why you feel that Hanover should be entirely unique in doing so.

Sorry to be a downer on this issue, but Hanover isn't about to build Pee-Wee's playhouse for hikers on the edge of their town, and anyone expecting this shouldn't be holding their breath waiting for it to happen.

[Jack Tarlin]

Peaks: As far as bus service to the "real" outfitters in West Lebanon, well this is already in place. And it's free. The bus stops yards from EMS and L.L. Bean, so I'm not sure what more Hanover can do here.

In terms of altering the bus routes so that the bus stops at or near such places as the big laundromat outside of town, or directly at or near the two motels out of town, the Chieftain and the Sunset Inn, which would save hikers difficult hitches and/or long and dangerous roadwalks, then I think that's a great idea and something that I hope is considered.

Lastly, and I'm sorry to harp on this issue, but I repeatedly see people hoping or expecting that the town should provide free camping/lodging to hikers.

Um, why? Hanover gets hundreds of thousands of visitors every year. What's so special about backpackers?

And where do similar free facilities exist on the Trail? What communities presently offer this service?

And since essentially none of them do (unless one is thrilled by the piece of parched lawn and Port-a-John on the outskirts of Boiling Springs), then why should Hanover be any different?

There are dozens and dozens of towns and communities on, near, or adjacent to the A.T.

If any of them provide town-funded and maintained free places for hikers to crash and party, or if any of them maintain staffed places with supervised rules to keep the place in line, well I'd love to hear about them.

Sorry, but I see people expecting stuff from Hanover that simply isn't "expected" anywhere else. When hikers arrive in such places as Franklin, Pearisburg, Harpers Ferry, Duncannon, you name it, I don't see them expecting the town to build and permanently maintain facilities for their use.

But all sorts of folks think Hanover should be different on this one.

Sorry, this doesn't compute.

[Jester2000]

Palmerton. But you knew that.

[The Weasel]

First, we liked Hanover. We used to live in the country fairly close to a university town so the culture didn't bother us a bit. We treated people in Hanover with respect and everyone we met was good to us. We stopped to eat, went to an outfitter and a few other shops, ate again and headed back out to the trail. As for prices, expect them to be a bit higher, but if that's a big deal don't buy the goods and head for the woods.


I didn't get the impression that people were looking down on us. People in the businesses knew what we were doing and were supportive. We got some curious looks from visitors with the packs and stuff, but we used the opportunity to engage people and once they learned what we were doing they seemed to be intrigued. The bottom line for me is if a hiker acts like trash, we'll be treated like trash. If we respect others, we can expect respect in return.


As far a suggestions-



I like your suggestion about a place on the outskirts for hikers to clean up. Showers would be a good start for anyone going into Hanover to start on a positive note.
If possible it would be great to have some lockers located with the showers for short term storage of gear while hikers go into town. It gets a little awkward in town with all the gear and it would be good for hikers and the proprietors to not have to deal with it.
It would be great if the town and the Dartmouth Outing Club would consider establishing a pavilion on the outskirts with these amenities along with adjacent tent camping and info about Hanover, possibly on the bus route. A charge for a showers, lockers and camping is reasonable. The Outing Club could staff it with Caretakers in the busy times with proceeds going to the club. This might solve some problems and create a base for hikers to enjoy the town.
I like the idea of including an explanation of the AT in the College orientation for both students and parents. There is a very fine line between vagrants and thru hikers. I think if the parents understood what we were doing it would garner more interest and fewer sneers.
We also got a bit turned around in town with the signage not being clear for the AT route. Maybe that could be improved. There is a lot to take in with the shops, food, people and all so it would be helpful if it stood out a bit more.

Jack, I like what you're doing to participate in improving relations between the town and hikers and hope some of this negativity can go away. Personally, I think it's a great town and this looks like a good opportunity to make some relatively small changes that could make a big difference in the way it's perceived. Good luck!

I am struck by the similarity of these suggestions to the recommendations made in Laguna Beach to deal with the large number of homeless we have, including the showers, lockers, pavillion and more. Most people here aren't very welcoming to those ideas, in an equally wealthy community, and I frankly doubt that Hanover will be any more welcoming to the ideas of a "hobo shelter". I wish it was different.

TW

[Jack Tarlin]

Jester:

You of course are correct, I forgot Palmerton, perhaps because I've visited the place just once, briefly, and never overnighted there.

I appreciate that the town and town officials have been at great lengths to help out the hikers there by offering a secure place to clean up and sleep.

I am also aware that there have been yearly problems at the Palmerton facility, and that it's continuance in operation is in question.

There's also a significant difference between the two locations: In one case, we're talking about a place where guest know there will be regular supervision and even visitations from law enforcement personnel, and alsom that there is no trouble or additional expense in the town providing this supervision due to the facility's location.

This would NOt be the case with a hiker facility located in the woods at the far edge of town. It would require a permanent caretaker, or constant supervision and police visitation, and I assure you that Hanover isn't interested in either providing or funding for either.

[rcli4]

Jack,
Probably the best thing that could be done is the shower. I know when my wife and I ,go early Sunday morning to breakfast at the outdoor cafe type place on the river, a stinking bearded guy sitting within nose distance of me is gonna think I'm uppitty. The place we like is downtown on the riverfront and is "home" to many homeless folks. My wife works with the homeless as a nurse one weekend a month as a volunteer. Hell, I helped build the homeless shelter but we still don't wanna smell stanky ass while eating. I doubt folks in Hanover do either and probably come off as uppitty when confronted with stank.

Clyde

[Jack Tarlin]

Weasel:

You made some great points. The big difference is that in providing such a facility, Hanover wouldn't be providing good deeds and Christian charity to the poor or the homeless, which some folks would indeed consider worthy causes and worthy recipients of their largesse and municipal beneficance.

It would instead be providing a free facilty (and probable party house) for people who are capable of going on a six-month long outdoors vacation and who, in all likelihood, are perfectly capable of paying on their own for these services and facilities, services which, I might add, exist virtually nowhere else on the A.T.

[Jester2000]

Jack -- you're absolutely correct in all regards concerning the Palmerton Hostel, and I think it would be a terrible idea for Hanover to attempt anything like it. It would cause more problems than it would solve.

[Jack Tarlin]

Clyde:

Thank you for your comment and I agree with you 100%, which is why the possibility of a shower facility for hikers is the first suggestion I made in my original post on this thread.

I'd like to see it happen and will strongly suggest the idea.

[Montana]

Blazes or paint on the sidewalk is tacky, but plaques in the sidewalk are cool.

Um, forgive me for asking, but who do you expect to pay for this project, cuz the town sure won't.

They're laying off teacher's assistants in the elementary school and cutting back the staff at the library but you think the citizens of the town should pay untold thousands of dollars to bit brass A.T. markers in the sidewalks?

Um, sorry, it ain't happening anytime soon.


I was simply stating that the character of the town (upper to upper-middle class / yuppie) would probably fit better with the brass markers. I didn't even posit an idea on how to pay for this, or if it should even be done.



In regards to Hanover, the idea of a "multi-use" pavillion by the soccer field just doesn't work. The facilty wouldn't be "multi-use" as other than hikers, nobody would need such a facility at this location: Locals neither need, would use, or would want to pay for a public bathhouse or shower facility; nor would they want to picnic or hang out there, and obviously wouldn't need to overnight there. Likewise, neither would any Dartmouth or Outing Club people. So how on earth could such a place ever be "multi-use"?


You would know best. It seemed as if that area were under utilized, and that a well designed multi-use facility would benefit many people, not just hikers. Obviously you believe this to not be the case.



A permanent building or pavillion or whatever at this location would do nothing but become a magnet for problems. As I said earlier, who would pay for the erection and maintenance of this facility? The hikers certainly won't help out with this. They routinely don't pay a cent for staying at hostels like the Place in Damascus or they screw out of paying a dime at private "donation" hostels like Kincora. A voluntary "honor" payment system here in Hanover would fail miserably, and as for permanent staffing of the location, to ensure that fees were paid and that rules were obeyed, who is going to supply or pay for this? And never mind that a permanent hiker facility five minutes away from bars and restaurants, minutes from the high school, and forty seconds walk from a beer store simply isn't going to work and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. There was a semi-permanent campsite at this location this year.....and it repeatedly drew undesirables, had its share of problems, and only served to damage relations between hikers and nearby residents, as well as town officials and police. A permanent facility, ostensibly built for the community at large but used primarily as a free crash pad for hikers would only generate problems and not solve them.


I realize that many people take advantage of the "donation" system used at a number of hostels. However, if a hostel operator is not making enough money using this system, then I suggest that they move to a pay for stay system instead.



You end your post by denying you expect Hanover to cater for hikers, but you think the town should put up, maintain, insure, clean, and patrol a facility for transient travelers that are on a voluntary six month vacation, a journey made possible by the fact that none of them have to work or worry about bills for six months.

Sorry. This certainly IS expecting Hanover to cater to hikers. As I said earlier, please tell me anywhere else on or near the Trail where a community provides such a service, and if you can't come up with such a location, please tell us why you feel that Hanover should be entirely unique in doing so.


You are warping my words here. I will repeat myself. I do not expect anything of the town of Hanover, and I would be just as happy if they did nothing. I was simply stating that such a facility could be of benefit to all parties. You disagree with me, that is fine.

I'm done with this thread. I found the town pleasant and I wouldn't hesitate to stop by there in the future, but I could care less if the town wanted to keep its ties with the AT. Reroute the trail, or don't. Build nifty signs in the sidewalk, or don't. Provide a place for hikers to sleep/shower, or don't. Really, this whole conversation has been pointless, and I'm sorry that I even ventured into this thread.

[Jack Tarlin]

Well, Montana, sorry you're upset and found the conversation pointless, or maybe you simply don't take criticism well.

All I was pointing out was that a hiker pavillion wouldn't work here.

Locals, who all either have nice houses to live in nearby, or who attend Dartmouth College, would not need, nor would they ever use a bathhouse or shower, nor would they ever need to overnight here if they lived minutes away.

As to the repeated comments that such a facility would be multi-purpose and would therefore be used and would benefit many people, this is simply not the case. People that live in houses that start at half a million bucks or people whose families pay $50,000 a year for their education and room and board don't need to rely on public bath-houses or camping facilities. They have much nicer places of their own.

The suggestion that the pavillion be operated on a "pay" system as opposed to the honor system is fine, but who would collect this money, i.e. who would pay to train, staff, and maintain this facility? Neither the town nor the college would.......so who's left? You acknowledge that an "honor" system won't work, but you haven't suggested how to implement a "pay" system. As someone who has lived here for over a decade, I assure you that neither the town nor Dartmouth College is interested in backing, erecting, insuring, maintaining, staffing, or supervising such a facility. Is that clear enough?

Lastly, whetheror not the "character" of the town is suitable for brass markers is entirely irrelevant.

What is entirely relevant is that Hanover, like every other town in America, has more pressing things to spend its municipal funds on.

And a hiker bath-house or sidewalk sculptures ain't on the list.

[Jack Tarlin]

Wow. I'm sorry this discussion has once again gotten contentious, tho at least this time we're discussing legitimate posts and comments and the thread is staying on-topic.

Once again, I thank everyone for contributing to this thread; there have been some great ideas and suggestions made lately, and I hope to see more of them. This is a useful dialogue and I hope it continues.

[Jack Tarlin]

OCUBCS:

I forgot to respond to your post. Your idea of a sign that shows mileage/distances to various places and locations, whether on the Trail or otherwise, is a cool idea, and would help serve to remind folks and passersby that they were actually on the Trail. This would be a great project for local kids, Scouts, etc., and is one of the best suggestions I've seen yet.

[Montana]

Personal attacks, and the fact that I said I was done with this thread aside...

I never mentioned that hikers would pay for such a facility, and in fact I said that nobody should be hired to watch over the place. I simply stated that a bathroom facility (w/ showers) would be nice to have for people using the nearby fields, and that hikers would also find is useful (aka multi-use). Obviously we disagree with other people having a use for a bathroom here. The pavilion is a bad idea, point taken.

[Wise Old Owl]

No I haven't been to Hanover, However I have computing resources, There are existing amenities at Hanover.

Are you aware of this location?

http://www.storrspond.org/activities/camping/

A short connecting blue blaze trail from the AT to Grasse & Wheellock st would make Storrs Pond exactly one mile from the current trail.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/StorrsPond.jpg


Someone would have to work with the town and the organization to get a better discount for AT thruhikers, also a second set of showers would be recommended for the location on the tenting side of the pond. From the photos of the Storr Pond I wonder why nobody mentioned it, the place looks great!

What do you folks think?

[Jack Tarlin]

I was criticizing your comments and resent the implication that you were being personally attacked.

It is your WORDS I was commenting on, and not you. For example, you just told us that you weren't suggesting that hikers would pay for such a facility, nor should anyone be hired to watch over such a place.

Well, that's great. But if no one's gonna pay for the place, and no one's in charge of looking after it, then seriously, how long do you really think such a place would last?

Um, like how about two days. Maybe.

A pavillion is indeed a "nice" idea. It'd also be nice if the Hanover Inn cost 39 bucks a night instead of two-fifty. It'd be nice is 5-Olde served free steaks and margaritas. It'd be nice if it rained beer in town on alternate Tuesdays in August and all the hikers had buckets.

But an idea being "nice" doesn't make it practical. The pavillion or some sort of facility isn't necessarily a "bad" idea, and I regret very much if I used strong speech towards people who suggested such a thing. And when I said this was a pretty horrible idea, I didn't mean the comments to be personal.

Better to say that for all sorts of reasons, a facility like this is impractical and unworkable, and it'd be really unrealistic for this town, or any other, to offer something similar.

[Wise Old Owl]

You cannot have public showers & pavillions without caretakers, someone has to mind the store, replace the TP and keep it clean, no matter what everyone comes up with, keep in mind there are distructive people out there that would trash it if it were not attended to.

Thanks Njordan2

[LIhikers]

The only suggestion I would make is to repaint the blazes that show where to turn in town. My wife and I walked up the hill from the river and missed the first turn. We didn't realize we went wrong until we walked out of the other side of town. Then we turned around and went back to find where we had gone wrong.

[Jack Tarlin]

Owl:

Storrs Pond is indeed a great location and I know it well.

It's also not that easy to get to if you're on foot, and more importantly, it's designed as a family campsite and getaway.

Thru-hikers tenting there would immediately become as welcome as those who used to take advantage of the discount hiker tentsites at such places as the KOA campground in Harpers Ferry.

It became a hiker asylum, and there were repeated problems with property damage, noise, inappropriate behavior, nudity, public urination, problems with pets, and all sorts of problems involving alcohol.

In other words, typical hiker problems when hikers are side by side with family campers.

The end result was that long-distance hiker became really unpopular there, and this was reflected by the abolition of affordable or discount rates for them.

It's a really nice idea, Owl, and you're right, it's a spectacular location.

But if hikers stayed there, especially at a discount rate, they'd find a way to **** it up just like so many other locations, and in the end, instead of helping improve town/hiker relations, in short order, it would do precisely the opposite.

And if they weren't given a big discount, then nobody would stay there.

So sorry, I simply don't see Storrs Pond as a solution. Neither the people that run the facility, nor the Hanover P.D. would want to deal with supervising or baby-sitting hikers there, and the problems as far as rules and enforcement would start on Day One.

[Wise Old Owl]

wow... sorry to hear that.

[mikec]

I section hiked through Hanover this summer and I thought that it was 'the Damascus of the North'. I ate at Lou's Bakery and stayed at the Sunset Motor Inn for 3 nights because of the rain. The only suggestions that I have are better blazing or some sort of direction markers through the town. I did get lost between the coop and the woods. Let's face it, Hanover is a high end college town and the students and their families bring in the bucks. But, as a section hiker, I enjoyed myself there and felt that I was well treated.

The only regret that I have is that I didn't get to see Baltimore Jack. I ran into you a few times in TN and VA back in 1999. I found out where you worked after I got to Moose Mountain Shelter. You cooked a mean breakfast at Kincora Hostel in April, 1999.

[yaduck9]

No I haven't been to Hanover, However I have computing resources, There are existing amenities at Hanover.

Are you aware of this location?

http://www.storrspond.org/activities/camping/

A short connecting blue blaze trail from the AT to Grasse & Wheellock st would make Storrs Pond exactly one mile from the current trail.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg275/MarkSwarbrick/StorrsPond.jpg


Someone would have to work with the town and the organization to get a better discount for AT thruhikers, also a second set of showers would be recommended for the location on the tenting side of the pond. From the photos of the Storr Pond I wonder why nobody mentioned it, the place looks great!

What do you folks think?



I think you'll have to find another "representative" to pitch the idea at "the meeting";)

[Jack Tarlin]

It really doesn't please me to write such things, Owl, and I sure wish it were different.

But there's the way the world should be and then there's the way the world all too often is, and unfortunately, it's the second one that we usually have to deal with.

Hikers taking R&R in a town setting at a family camping area doesn't make a good mix.

[Jack Tarlin]

Mike:

You are one of several folks who've commented on blazing and the possibility of losing the Trail in Hanover and I think your concern is legit, especially down by the Food Co-Op, where the road forks and blazes are few.

There are absolutley places which could stand better signage or blazing, and this is something I'll certainly mention to the Dartmouth Outing Club people, as they are the ones principally responsible for taking care of this stuff in Hanover.

[yaduck9]

Owl:

Storrs Pond is indeed a great location and I know it well.

It's also not that easy to get to if you're on foot, and more importantly, it's designed as a family campsite and getaway.

Thru-hikers tenting there would immediately become as welcome as those who used to take advantage of the discount hiker tentsites at such places as the KOA campground in Harpers Ferry.

It became a hiker asylum, and there were repeated problems with property damage, noise, inappropriate behavior, nudity, public urination, problems with pets, and all sorts of problems involving alcohol.

In other words, typical hiker problems when hikers are side by side with family campers.

The end result was that long-distance hiker became really unpopular there, and this was reflected by the abolition of affordable or discount rates for them.

It's a really nice idea, Owl, and you're right, it's a spectacular location.

But if hikers stayed there, especially at a discount rate, they'd find a way to **** it up just like so many other locations, and in the end, instead of helping improve town/hiker relations, in short order, it would do precisely the opposite.

And if they weren't given a big discount, then nobody would stay there.

So sorry, I simply don't see Storrs Pond as a solution. Neither the people that run the facility, nor the Hanover P.D. would want to deal with supervising or baby-sitting hikers there, and the problems as far as rules and enforcement would start on Day One.


Perhaps the best suggestion is for the town to set up a free shuttle to move thru hikers through the general area of as quickly as possible. This would, obviously, be a benefit to the town and the hikers.:banana

[Jack Tarlin]

Yaduck:

You might have missed the early part of this thread where other folks suggested such things as moving the Trail altogether from here, as well as all sorts of unkind comments about the town and its residents.

That's not what this thread is about.

It's about making positive suggestions that would make things better for both hikers and residents of Hanover alike.

Please feel free to join us in this discussion if you like; otherwise be aware that this is a "straight-forward" thread and all posts are expected to be serious, thoughtful, and to the point.

Thank you.

[yaduck9]

I apologize.

Now if we could only get some "positive responses" to those positive suggestions.:eek:

[Jack Tarlin]

I agree with you Yaduck, about hoping for a positive response.

But the questions have to come first.

[yaduck9]

Please continue, your doing great.

[Blissful]

Blissful:

The only problem with your suggestion is that hikers would bitch and complain if the area WAS patrolled! :D



Well I wouldn't be one of them and I'd be glad to have it that way when I come through again in 2011. Sometimes we need protection from other hikers who act like idiots or otherwise.

[The Weasel]

You cannot have public showers & pavillions without caretakers, someone has to mind the store, replace the TP and keep it clean, no matter what everyone comes up with, keep in mind there are distructive people out there that would trash it if it were not attended to.

Thanks Njordan2

It is very common here along the California coast that beaches have outside showers, with lukewarm water. People use them most often to rinse salt off; many use soap and, of course, people have swim suits on. A few have semi-stalls, with swinging doors, so that people can remove their clothes. Since they are outside, they are unstaffed, and they are automatically shut off at dusk by a timer. In other words, there would be little staffing cost for this.

TW

[volleypc]

My personal experience with Hanover this year was fantastic. I was able to take a bus right to the laundrymat as well as other areas around town. Accomodations could be tough, but one of the downtown hotels gave us a great deal (school was in between semesters). Great food, friendly people, etc. I did have a hard time finding shoes in town because the outfitter was about to do their inventory and only had a few models of shoes my size (size 12). I expect the reason the town was such a great experience for me is because the officials have meetings like this to take input and then respond to the input. I just hope they continue on the same course.. hats off to all of you.

[Appalachian Tater]

The services I used going through Hanover in 2006 were:

Bought a couple of grocery items at the general store on the other side of the river and a pastry at a nearby bakery. Was glad I stopped in.

Went to the ATM machine.

Got a refill on alcohol from an outfitters that was mostly fishing gear. Really nice guys, refused to let me pay for it.

Ate lunch at a good Indian restaurant in a house a block from the library. People there were very nice. First Indian food on the trail going NOBO. Was recommended by the guys at the outfitters and while I was eating one of them came and picked up a to-go order so they put their money where their mouths were.

Bought some groceries at a chain drugstore nearby, I think it was RiteAid, next to a gas station.

Used the internet at the library. Librarians were friendly and helpful. Nice library, lots of computers.

Halfway looked for a barber shop but gave up after a couple of people had no idea where one was.

Bought groceries at the co-op, ate watermelon on the picnic table outside and got water from a spigot.

Didn't spend the night, hiked out up the hill after having eaten way too much and packing too much food, as usual.

I agree with the suggestions already offered. I didn't stop by the outing club and a kiosk would be very helpful to hikers. It would also make the trail more known to locals and non-hiking visitors and give the town an opportunity to give precautions about open-bottle laws and such and perhaps head off some problems.

If there had been a kiosk with information about a barber shop I would have gotten my hair cut and dropped another $10 in town so it seems to me that this would be an obvious thing that could be done that would have only positive benefits for everyone and no cons except someone having to pay for it and maintain it. If would probably head off a few incidents with the police and locals so it would pay for itself in goodwill if not in dollars.

It would have been nice to have been able to take a shower somewhere and wash clothes, a hostel like the one in Pearisburg would be great so people could spend the night for $10 or $15 but that is probably beyond the scope of what the town would want to do. It is a real shame, though, that the college or town or churches aren't able to deal with hiker behavior and can't host like they do in some other places. Can't blame them.

But letting hikers camp is really nice so a laundry and shower would have been sufficient to make a nice town stop. It is incredible that a college town doesn't have a public laundry, surely all the students don't live on campus and they don't all have cars. I didn't know about the bus to a laundry but probably wouldn't have bothered without being able to take a shower as well.

I spent around $65 there just on a pastry, the one restaurant meal (because I really ate enough for two) and resupply. I didn't cost the city anything other than a little wear and tear on the pavement and the keyboard at the library. I supported five local businesses (counting the two across the river) and would have supported six if the outfitter had stocked suitable socks or charged me for my alcohol and if I could have found a barber shop and would have gladly spent $7 or 8 on a (tiny) load of laundry and a shower. (The bank probably didn't make money off my small ATM fee.)

Hikers that hang out for a day or two and patronize the local pubs probably spend quite a bit more cash than I did so I would think the local businesses would be glad to have hikers in town even if the police and college and residents aren't quite so happy.

So in my opinion the town needs:

1. An information kiosk coming into town or at that first intersection where you turn right and one at or near the co-op for SOBO'ers.

2. A really good outfitter with a couple of shower rooms and washers and dryers and/or a hostel with these services.

3. Better trail markings on the other side of the river and through town, although they may have been improved since I was there.

Still, I enjoyed my day there and was able to get everything I really needed.

[Many Walks]

Jack, you asked for input from the folks since you are representing long distance hikers at the meeting where several officials and community representatives want to discuss how the Hanover experience can be improved for hikers. You were given several good ideas, but proceeded to cull out the ones you didn't think would work. No worries, we don't claim to be the Hanover experts and most of us can take it or leave it the way it is.


You also asked what we would suggest if we were the ones going to the meeting. Since the purpose of the meeting is most likely to better understand how the town is perceived, and to spur discussion and brainstorming of ideas, I would collect all the suggestions the hikers input here and submit them as a full list of ideas from the WB community. Of course I would note that some may not gain traction for various reasons you had already told us, but I would think they may lead the discussion to other ideas that might help resolve some of the concerns.


I have to believe the meeting group would be interested in hearing what distance hikers have to say regarding Hanover in areas we already like as well as some that could be improved, in our opinion. Seems if you ask the folks to submit ideas, you should at least pass the information on to the larger group looking for ways to make improvements instead of just saying they're bad and tossing them away.


You listed some great examples, but I don't recall you had any prerequisites regarding cost, oversight, specific community involvement to manage, etc. You just asked for ideas and that's exactly what you got. What we got in return was a bunch of negative feedback why they wouldn't work. I'm not sure you know that for sure until the entire group has had a chance to evaluate them. Seems it's just possible that if they are serious about this someone there just may have some ideas on how they might work. Isn't it worth a try?

[coss]

I lived in Hanover for six years, quite some time ago. Here are some ideas:

1. An appropriate place for a NOBO informational kiosk would be at the entrance to the parking lot for the Canoe Club, just after the bridge. It could have a map of town showing the trail route and businesses of interest to hikers, the shuttle bus schedule, etc. For SOBO, perhaps a kiosk in the woods by the soccer field would be helpful.

2. As others have said, better blazes and signs for the turns onto and off of Main Street and for the route from the CoOp to the soccer field would be in order.

3. Showers are problematic for the numerous reasons outlined above. Perhaps the College could be persuaded to allow hikers to shower at the gym for a fee during the hours the desk is staffed. Maybe the laundromat could put in a coin operated shower. Again, maintenance and possible bad behavior by hikers could kill off either idea in a hurry. For security and liability reasons, the frats or dorms cannot provide much help, and the gym might be off limits as well.

4. There are adequate motel and camping options already. Kiosks could direct hikers to those locations.

5. Resupply alternatives are ample, especially when the shuttle bus radius is included. It is unrealistic to expect low prices in Hanover proper, which has some of the most expensive trailside real estate imaginable.

6. It isn't productive to complain about the town's ambiance. Keep in mind that the DOC takes care of 75 miles of trail in a part of the country without much population from which to draw other trail stewards, and some of those preppies are pretty good with rock bars and chain saws.

[modiyooch]

Jack, At times, it sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder about hikers. It's confusing. I kind of resent some of your remarks. hikers are from ALL walks of life, social & economical backgrounds. It's a sport.
Showers and storage facilities at an athletic field is not such a far fetch idea. At least the hikers would be more presentable while in restaurants and wouldn't have to drag their nasty gear inside. That would make everyone happy. I'm sure that it would also be utilized by the community in some fashion. I agree that it shouldn't be an overnight facility, but I do think that it could be a community facility; hence yes, the town footing the bill. It would be for the good of the community.
also, when asking for suggestions, I would leave the critisism out of it.
Anyway, as you go to the town meeting, please leave the "chip" at home.

[yaduck9]

It appears that all suggestions need to pass a "litmus test" i.e. no government funds.

If that is what it takes to get a suggestion before the committee then one should be up front about it, otherwise it just creates confusion, rancor, etc., etc................

Just a suggestion.................

[modiyooch]

Palmerton. But you knew that.Tyringham has a pavillion for sleeping and no economic benefit for them doing so.

This would be a good time for me to give a shout out for Northern Outdoor Resort, NOR, in Three Forks. Thank you very much for the hospitality and treating us with respect. I initially thought the owners were former thru hikers, but they are not.

[Blue Jay]

Jack, At times, it sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder about hikers.

Since you don't know him, you could not know that this could not be further from the truth.
He simply has met more than most people and knows hikers quite well.

[Not So Fast!]

I certainly agree with the posts about the blazes. That's an easy fix, I think.

Someone else mentioned one of the "mileage" signs. Wouldn't one of these, placed in a very conspicuous and central location, go a long way to helping the uninformed learn that these unshaven, unkempt, and un-deodorized individuals are in fact passing through?

I think of Hanover as being quite - let's look for a good New England word here - "gentrified". The affluent have made their mark, and Dartmouth is an institution of the very highest caliber. It is not surprising that residents and visitors alike might misunderstand the legions of the great unwashed tramping through town.

I suspect that there are a ton of people who just don't understand that the person they just saw might have walked all the way from Georgia. The sign might help minimize those numbers, and go a long way towards providing a little education.

[PeterB]

I agree with you Yaduck, about hoping for a positive response.

But the questions have to come first.

So are the following questions or positive responses?

"won't happen and is a lousy idea"

"it ain't happening anytime soon"

"I'm starting to see people expect stuff from Hanover and Hanover residents"

"Hanover isn't about to build Pee-Wee's playhouse for hikers"

"all sorts of folks think Hanover should be different on this one."

The thread invited people to make suggestions. People thought about it and made suggestions. The requester of the suggestions and the "representative" has the obligation to treat these suggestions with respect. Some of these may not be practical for Hanover, but jumping all over their ideas and questioning their motives with the tone of comments above is not very cordial and discourages people from making any suggestions at all.

[Grampie]

Jack, At times, it sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder about hikers. It's confusing. I kind of resent some of your remarks. hikers are from ALL walks of life, social & economical backgrounds. It's a sport.
Showers and storage facilities at an athletic field is not such a far fetch idea. At least the hikers would be more presentable while in restaurants and wouldn't have to drag their nasty gear inside. That would make everyone happy. I'm sure that it would also be utilized by the community in some fashion. I agree that it shouldn't be an overnight facility, but I do think that it could be a community facility; hence yes, the town footing the bill. It would be for the good of the community.
also, when asking for suggestions, I would leave the critisism out of it.
Anyway, as you go to the town meeting, please leave the "chip" at home.

I know Jack and his various statements don't sound to me like he has a chip on his shoulder.
Jack lives in Hanover and is very knowledgeable when it comes to hiking the AT and problems related to it.
His motive for this post was to see what others have to say to improve the relationship between hikers and the town of Hanover.
First I would like to say that I have no suggestions other than some that have been previously stated. I think input has to be put out by the other side. Jack should attend the meeting and listen to what the town folks have to say. If he could report back on what was said , at the meeting, we, the AT community, could very well address some of the town's needs and than they might be more will in to address ours.
We must remember, Hanover doesn't need AT hikers as much as the hikers may need the town as a stop. The town fathers probably look at AT hikers as a thorn in their side. They take away and leave nothing.
Many small towns along the trail look at the AT to bring money into their town. They sometimes close one eye to some hiker conduct because of the money they spend. In more affluent towns like Kent and Hanover the additional revenue hikers may bring is outwayed by the problems hikers create.
So Jack, go to the meeting. Report back what is being said. We as a hiker group may have to do some changing so that town folks look apon us with different eyes. They may than consider doing more.

[vthiker]

As far as the difficulty of finding one's way through Hanover, I think that's easy to fix. I'm the Adopter Coordinator for the DOC. I'll make sure there are more blazes.

[Lucy Lulu]

I felt for Jack throughout the first few pages of this thread. He requested some feedback, got a lot of negative crap, and managed to keep his cool and respond maturely, with just facts.

Then the tone changed a little (I'm sure Jack got a little frustrated), and Pete now has valid points.

[buff_jeff]

I don't see what the big deal is. Why should Hanover have to do ANYTHING for hikers. It is fine. It's got a solid diner and a place to resupply; good enough for me.

[neighbor dave]

I don't see what the big deal is. Why should Hanover have to do ANYTHING for hikers. It is fine. It's got a solid diner and a place to resupply; good enough for me.

i agree with buff jeff

[A-Train]

I don't see what the big deal is. Why should Hanover have to do ANYTHING for hikers. It is fine. It's got a solid diner and a place to resupply; good enough for me.

It doesn't. Unlike Hot Springs and Damascus, Hanover doesn't need the AT. The money the hikers bring in is a drop in the bucket. But wouldn't you rather have more service options than less?

Anyway, the OP is a townsperson and hiker, so the stakes and interest are high on his end..

[neighbor dave]

sometimes i think the focus on the A.T. has shifted to more of a service oriented trail, rather than the actual experience of hiking the trail.
having basic needs should be enough, anything more takes some of the adventure/mystery out of it.
just my opinion.

i like hanover, and have walked through it twice, both times i thought the services were adaquate, once with dorm lodging, once without

:sun

[Jack Tarlin]

Once again, some good comments today.

Sorry about the folks who evidently think I don't like hikers. That might come as a surprise to the several score that dropped by our place this summer. Some of them stayed a week. Guess they didn't pick up on how much I disliked them. :rolleyes:

And also surprised by the person that said I "culled" the comments here.

Um, no. I was happy to hear from all sorts of people. I didn't "cull" anyone's comments. I certainly disagreed with some of them, especially the repeated suggestions that a hiker shelter/bathouse/pavillion be built at the edge of town, despite the fact that I can't think of one other town that has this sort of facility in place. Far from "culling" the repeated comments about such a facility, I instead answered each one in turn, and said why I thought it was a bad idea and wouldn't work. Likewise, my comments about a local campground were similarly composed.

Storrs Campground is a great place, as I said. It's also a family campground, and thru-hikers on a town R&R layover don't mix well with family campers. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either delusional or hasn't thru-hiked.

I'm also sorry that so many posts today were about me instead of staying on topic.

Note to Peter and others: I've treated every response here with respect. All I've done is disagree with some of them, and please keep in mind, I've actually lived here since 1996.

I find it rather remarkable that some of the people who insist I'm dead wrong or totally mis-informed have either never set foot on this town, or perhaps visited it for a day years ago. But they still have "expert" opinions.

But if they think they know more about Hanover than I do, well there isn't really much I can do about it.

Also, please note that my posts have not been universally dismissive or negative as several folks suggested. In fact, I can't remember how many posts I've responded to by stating that I strongly agree with them, or that I thought the points made were good ones, etc., and I've gone out of my way to thank people for their contributions here. Usually these "Thank Yous!" came immediately after they posted, so the accusation that I've been scornful or dismissive about people's posts is simply false. I've certainly disagreed with some of the comments here, but I've also gone out of my way to highlight many of the other ones.

But there are always folks who have nothing to say or still hold personal grudges from other threads and discussions (Hi, Neighbor Dave! Great to see ya! :D) There are obviously folks who aren't really interested in making any real contributions to this thread, but instead want to keep making the thread about me. Which it isn't. I find it curious that many of the folks who commented initially (several times even) haven't contributed a single word since the thread went "straight-forward." I guess when they discovered that the thread was gonna stay firmly on-topic they weren't really interested in it anymore.

In any case, this is a discussion about ideas to make the town of Hanover NH more friendly and open to hiker visitors and to improve relations between hikers and townspeople. Period. Thanks to all of you who've made positive contributions and given ideas. I will absolutely use manyh of the comments here when I attend the upcoming Town meeting. Please keep the comments coming.

[Jack Tarlin]

VT Hiker:

Thank you for your last comment! If someone looks into the blazing/signage question in town and actually thinks the comments have merit, and then does something about it, then this thread has already accomplished something positive!!

Which was sort of the original idea behind the thread in the first place, guys. :-?

[Chance09]

I stayed on the edge of town at the designated campsites this summer and while I was there a patrol did come by. The cop mentioned how in seasons past they had people living back there and they check occasionally now to make sure that is no longer the case.

[Jack Tarlin]

Yup. Absolutlely true, and that's why a shelter/pavillion/bathhouse wouldn't work here, despite several people's insistence to the contrary. There were several folks staying there for over a week this summer, in tents. It'd only be worse if there were a permanent facility there. There's a perfectly lovely shelter a bit north on the Trail. And I absolutely would like to see the College or a private business step up and help with the shower thing.

But a permanent hiker facility on the edge of town, either by the soccer field or in the woods, would be a complete disaster, and in terms of helping improve relations between hikers and townspeople, especially the folks who live just yards away, a facility here would do just the opposite.

[The Weasel]

I agree with Lone Wolf in a sense: No town "needs" the AT. Hanover, for instance, doesn't "need" Dartmouth, just like Detroit (my old, and now deserted, stomping ground) never "needed" the auto industry.

But any town that wants to keep its population, and its future, needs any legitimate economic it can attract, and it should do all it can to assist that process. That's why most towns other than the tiniest (and some of them, too) have Economic Development Councils. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Hanover probably garners $500,000 or more a year from thru hikers and other users of the AT, and that's probably the equivalent of about 20 jobs. That may not seem like a lot to some of you, but trust me on this: Towns like Hanover - and Damascus - will do a lot to get and keep 20 jobs. Frankly, I think the economic impact is greater than that for Hanover, but even conservatively, that means that 20 people get a paycheck, and probably another 20 are family of that person, and using the routine "multiplier effect" of a job at 1.5 (from the spending - which goes to pay other people - from the first income, over and over), another 10 people have a living. 50 people in Hanover (if it is viewed in a combined fashion) owe their livelihood to the AT. Since it's more accurate to divide that by fractions (since there are few people who are wholly dependent on a paycheck resulting from the AT), it's more likely to say that 500 people in Hanover are benefitted by the AT. That may not be huge numbers in Hanover, but trust me: To those people, it matters.

And yeah, Damascus doesn't "need" the AT, either. But think it through, people: If MRO were the only place that got a benefit from the AT, if it closed, several people would be out of work and its owners would lose their investment. The owners of the buildings MRO uses would lose their rent. Some suppliers would have fewer orders, and that would cost employees and owners of those companies, too. Beyond that, the grocery in town would have fewer sales; would it be able to stay open? Grocery margins are notoriously slim; would losing, say, the $10,000 that is probably sold to hikers be the difference between open and closed? What about Dots? Trail Days alone probably brings in $10-20,000 in revenue to hostels, B&Bs, groceries and restaurants.

But if that money were lost, Damascus would survive. Many people would have lower incomes; some shopping choices would be lost; the quality of life for those remaining, with smaller incomes would affected, unless something else can replace the AT's ability to bring revenue to town. And Damascus would begin to resemble, more and more, the host of other small, dying, distressed towns that would kill for a tourism source like the AT.

Jack's efforts in this thread are feisty, which is how Jack is, and sometimes it would be better if he weren't quite as hair-trigger. But he's doing a damn fine thing for his town, and also for hikers, in bringing this up. For those who want to criticise, that's basically foolish. If you doubt me, go take a look at Detroit. For a long time that's all people did. Now they don't; not because there's nothing to criticise. There's just no town there anymore.

Thanks for what you're doing, Jack.

The Weasel

[Jack Tarlin]

Some interesting news:

I recently got a very nice E-Mail from a local official who'll be attending this upcoming meeting, and he wants to get together. So we're getting together for coffee next Monday. I intend to print up this entire thread when I go, and he can share it with whoever he wishes. I'll also tell him about the thread before the meeting in case he's interested in seeing your comments before talking with me.

Several people here have expressed fears that their comments and suggestions will never be seen by anyone else; someone else stated that comments here would be "culled" before anyone in Hanover saw them, or they'd be vetted and selectively edited before I shared them with anyone.

These concerns are groundless.

Anyone that has an interest in this subject or anyone that wants their ideas and thoughts on the subject to be seen by Hanover officials, College/Outing Club people, local businesspeople, etc., here's your chance. What people actually DO with your ideas and suggestions is obviously out of my hands, but be assured, contrary to what several folks have said, your comments will be seen by plenty of folks here in Hanover.

[Many Walks]

Jack, then I'll be the first to apologize. It appeared through your responses that the ideas you struck down wouldn't see the light of day at the meeting. The folks here gave input and it now appears the effort won't be wasted. In hindsight it may have been a bit easier if your response might have been “I don't believe the pavilion, lake location, etc. will fly, but I'll take them to the meeting with all the other ideas for consideration”. Even if nothing happens with this, Hanover is still alright by me. Best wishes.

[Jack Tarlin]

The idea behind this thread, MW, was to provoke dialogue and it certainly was never my intent to stifle or censor it. Everything posted here will be seen and presumably discussed by plenty of folks here in town. But thanks, MW, for your last post.

[Mango]

I'll weigh in with my Hanover experience in '06. I arrived in late morning, not sure if I would stay over or head back out. Had maildrops at the PO, which took some time to retrieve and sort through. The folks at DOC were very friendly and helpful; the special thru-hiker room downstairs was a great place to stow packs while running errands (I mean, walking errands). I am an alum of a frat on Dartmouth's campus, so I visited to see if I could stay there. The brothers welcomed me, but in the end I decided to head on out to make a few more miles. Apparently some College groups used to allow hikers to stay with them but no more. Hikers who are members of fraternities or sororities on campus might think of this option for a shower, porcelain plumbing, and a dry place to sleep. My coolest Hanover experience was being interviewed by a 3 or 4 journalism students with a TV video camera for a class project. They seemed unfamiliar with thru hikers, even surprised that such creatures were passing through daily. Extremely friendly and interested in my story. Hope they all got A's. Lou's remains one of my favorite places to eat, on or off the Trail. Shopped at the Co-op and didn't think the prices were way out of line. My biggest problem was trying to find where the Trail left the road and entered the woods out past the Co-op. I seem to recall thinking that some better marking would be helpful. I didn't meet Jack til 2 or 3 years later in Erwin, so I guess my Hanover experience was clouded by ignorance.

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, Mango, your Hanover experience sounds just about right.

The overwhelming majority of folks I've met or talked with (or hiked with) really enjoyed their stay here. A frequent complaint is that many things (like lodging, for starters) are
much more expensive in these parts, but a college town in New England is simply a costlier place to spend time in than a small town in, say, western North Carolina.

On the other hand, there's a nice free campsite just minutes from downtown. There are restaurants that either have very reasonably priced speacials or, in at least one case, give out free food to hikers. There's an art museum (also free); there's a great movie theater, an enormous pharmacy, the best coffee shop on the Trail; a great (but a bit pricey)supermarket; the best tobacconist; more ethnic restaurants in one town than in just about any other Trail stop; some very hiker-friendly pubs and restaurants; a safe clean place to leave your gear while you explore the town; some good outdoor shops; bookstores, a Post Office right on the Trail; a Ben and Jerry's shop right on the Trail, and all sorts of other stuff, too.

And while there is regrettably no inexpensive lodging right in town (or a laundromat for that matter), there is a totally free bus service that will get hikers to these places, as well as to nearby West Lebanon, where there are several supermarkets, a Wal-Mart, a Borders bookshop, several full service outfitters, dozens of restaurants, etc.

In short, despite the strident complaints from a few people who had shrill complaints but not much in the way of good alternative ideas, all in all, I think Hanover offfers a great deal
to hikers and I think that most folks really enjoy their time here.

And hopefully, thanks to the good feedback we've had here so far, next year's hikers will have an even better time here.

[jersey joe]

It seems like the majority of the people having negative feelings toward Hanover are from the south and have a negative feeling about the north in general, especially any town having people with any sort of money. Hanover isn't all that different from Damascus. There are friendly and unkind people in both towns. Your experience is largly a result of your attitude when you get to these towns.

One suggestion for Jack is that upon entering the town, maybe a sign can be put up when entering Hanover showing how the trail goes through Hanover and where the services are upon entering the town. I recall when I came into town being confused as to where anything was and sort of wandered around aimlessly. (of course, i didn't have a guidebook which likely has some of this info, just maps)

[partinj]

Hi never been to Hanover but a hostel would be nice to have mabye a payment of 15.00 to 25.00
to help with the up keep. Just an Ideal

[Nean]

I just LOVE Hanover.:sun ALWAYS have enjoyed my time there. :) Sure, there are a couple of things that could make it more hiker friendly that have been suggested but you are just improving on a great little trail town.:-?
The worst part about the area is the condition of the trail and how poorly it is marked at road crossings. I'm talking the DOC section, more so in Vermont than N.H.:confused:

Then again I love the Huts and have a great time in Kent. :eek: Sometimes people get back the attitude they project and sometimes somebody is having a bad day.:( Mostly my experience is that the people looking down their noses- are not even locals- and I've met many down to earth, friendly locals.;)

[ShelterLeopard]

Although- Hanover could do what Palmerton does, and convert its municipal building/jail basement into a hostel. Even buy some cheapo mattresses and stack them against the wall, and hikers could sleep on the floor. You could ask if there are any places that are usually not in use. (I could see people not being enthusiastic about turning those places into a hostel though.) Just a thought.

[Jack Tarlin]

Hmm, looks like a few folks forgot that this is now a straightforward thread. But thanks to the Moderator for cleaning things up periodically, it's helped a lot.

That being said:

Jersey Joe: No, I don't think most of the people who don't like Hanover are from the South. I think they're just all purpose whiners. After all, tho we haven't heard from him for a bit, when this thread started, the person most prominently bitching about how hikers were allegedly treated here was from Connecticut. And a prominent Hanover hater from Virginia complains about just about everything, so I'd discount that, too.

As to an info kiosk or bulletin board, I think this could be useful, but then again Lone Wolf may have a point: I'm not sure it's really needed. Nearly every hiker that arrives in town is already carrying on of the three major Trail handbpook/guides, i.e. he already knows where things are; his book has a perfectly good map, etc. So while I think better signage or blazing might be useful, I'm not sure an info kiosk for arriving hikers is really necessary. Kep in mind that nearly every long-distance hiker ends up in the basement of the Dartmouth Outing Club, which has posters, bulletin boards, etc., including a board directed at thru-hikers. What I would suggest is that more complete town information be posted THERE, including information that would supplement the info that hikers already have in their guidebooks, i.e. some emergency phone numbers; info on the free local bus service; contact info for local shuttlers or people who want to help hikers; changes/additions/updates that may not have made it into the hiker's guidebooks before publication; info on new businesses and services, etc. In that nearly every hiker ends up at the DOC already, it seems to me that this would be the perfect place to post this sort of information.

And lastly, to Partinj and Shelter Leopard: I don't think the town is going to let hikers (many of whom would arrive drunk) crash out in municipal buildings anytime soon, and neither do I think anyone who lives within walking distance of town is going to open a fifteen dollara night hostel, either. Houses here start at around half a million bucks, and as has already been pointed out several times, people that live in houses and neighborhoods like this generally aren't about to open crash pads for smelly hippies, nor would their neighbors appreciate it. Hostels in town settings generally don't work out, for any number of reasons, so anyone expecting either the town or a downtown resident to open a free or cheap lodging place for hikers may be waiting for awhile. I simply don't see it happening here. I live a mile outside of town and we've taken in hundreds of hikers over the years for free, and believe me, I can reassure you that NOBODY is gonna wanna do this full-time. Even Mother Teresa would throw up her hands and quit in disgust after two weeks. Running a hiker hostel is not easy, and running one in a town adds still more problems; I really don't see a cheap lodging facility appearing in Hanover anytime soon; I think many folks are simply going to have to do what they already do in many similar locations, like Boiling Springs, Kent, Salisbury, Manchester, etc. which is to plan on camping close to town but not necessarily staying directly IN town. And of course, there already is a perfectly nice free campsite just a few minutes walk from downtown, and a very nice shelter just a bit further North, for those that need a roof.

[Jack Tarlin]

Lone Wolf:

If you think the present hiker guidebooks are inadequate, perhaps you can help them.

Needless to say, as a longtime local resident, I assume you are presently one of the volunteer guidebook editors for Damascus, right? After all, you're in a unique position to assist and improve these books.

Oddly enough, I own all three guides and must have missed seeing your name listed there as a contributor.

Imagine that.

[Lone Wolf]

Lone Wolf:

If you think the present hiker guidebooks are inadequate, perhaps you can help them.

Needless to say, as a longtime local resident, I assume you are presently one of the volunteer guidebook editors for Damascus, right? After all, you're in a unique position to assist and improve these books.

Oddly enough, I own all three guides and must have missed seeing your name listed there as a contributor.

Imagine that.

i said "seems" to be inadequate cuz folks are complaining about finding things in town.
i am the Campanion editor for damascus

[Jack Tarlin]

I was unaware of that, Wolf.

Thank you for your efforts in Damascus.

But Hanover is not that different from where you live, i.e. it's a small dowtown area, and just about everything is either on, or just off the main street in town. I find it somewhat mystifying that people are having trouble finding things here, especially since they're all carrying guides of one sort or another. I agree that the trailblazing could be improved, but all major services and businesses are listed in the hiker guides. As I just said, tho, additional or updated info could easily be posted on the bulletin board at the DOC. I like the idea of letting more people know about the existence of the Trail, but I'm not sure a hiker info kiosk is necessary.

[jersey joe]

As to an info kiosk or bulletin board, I think this could be useful, but then again Lone Wolf may have a point: I'm not sure it's really needed. Nearly every hiker that arrives in town is already carrying on of the three major Trail handbpook/guides, i.e. he already knows where things are; his book has a perfectly good map, etc. So while I think better signage or blazing might be useful, I'm not sure an info kiosk for arriving hikers is really necessary.
In my original suggestion I did cede that I didn't have a guidebook when I hiked into Hanover. If most hikers have the guidebook with the map and services then I was in the minority and a sign with hiker services might not be a good idea afterall.

[ShelterLeopard]

Jack- I kinda figured that would be the case. The hostel suggestion was really wishful (or is it wistful?) thinking. But hey- we can either stay in the campsite or splurge and stay in an Inn. Either way, it isn't impossible for hikers to find accomodations.

[Jack Tarlin]

Another possibility, Joe, is that some sort of sign or small bulletin board could go up somewhere, perhaps on the corner of Main St. by the Post Office, informing people that they're on the historic A.T., etc.; it could also mention the existence of the Dartmouth Outing Club and encourage people to go there for more complete information on the Trail. The DOC building is open already 24/7, so it'd be perfectly OK to direct people there; plus, this would save building and maintaining a kiosk.

[Jack Tarlin]

Leopard:

I dunno about the Hanover Inn, as rooms go for around $250.00. It's a bit beyond most folks. Most hikers these days stay at the nearby Sunset Inn, and they share a room. The place is clean, hiker-friendly, reasonably close to downtown, and affordable if you are willing to split the costs. One of the things I intend to do is look into seeing if we can get the bus to stop there or close by (if it doesn't already) in order to make things easier and safer for hikers who want to go there. They should do the same thing at the other end of town for folks who want to stay at the Chieftain, another nice local motel.

[ShelterLeopard]

Wow- didn't know The Hanover Inn was so expensive. But I did figure I could find a way to get to the Sunset Inn and split it. But honestly, I figure I'll just make it a short day, do my errands in Hanover and continue on to Velvet Rocks for the night. But we'll see!

[nox]

First off I have never been to Hanover so I don't know what services are provided or what the attitudes of the residents are. But not much of what I have read here seems too unreasonable to request. At the very least they could be proposed to whichever committee you are meeting with. Who knows maybe you ask them for a small hiker campground and they'll love it. That might, in there eyes, be the solution to keep stinky hikers in a designated area instead of wandering around town all day. If they were to build a coin operated shower of some sort there it would definitely take some of the dirt out of town. If you were to go into the meeting with 30 ideas and 25 get shot down at least you tried. It's better than going in with only the 5 you are certain will be passed. You need to let them decide what they are willing to do, don't eliminate ideas so quickly.

[jersey joe]

Another possibility, Joe, is that some sort of sign or small bulletin board could go up somewhere, perhaps on the corner of Main St. by the Post Office, informing people that they're on the historic A.T., etc.; it could also mention the existence of the Dartmouth Outing Club and encourage people to go there for more complete information on the Trail. The DOC building is open already 24/7, so it'd be perfectly OK to direct people there; plus, this would save building and maintaining a kiosk.
Yes, something pointing people to the DOC building for information would be helpful.

[modiyooch]

Although, I own the companion book for reference; I don't carry the guide, or any maps. I just follow white blazes and carry a summarized data book listing mileage, towns, road crossings and shelters. That being said, I don't have maps of the towns and a kiosk would have been great. ok, info is in the doc building, but I needed direction to that building.

i guess you just need to ask the proprietors what they want and need, and then work from there. The town can embrace the AT and encourage the hikers to stop, shop and keep moving.

I think that the brass AT sign idea would have been cool. You never know, the town may go for it. It could be their way of embracing the AT and being proud of it.

[Peaks]

Not to provoke an argument, but there is another upscale town along the AT that also doesn't provide much in terms of hiker services: Kent CT. Why should hikers expect free services in Hanover any more than elsewhere? In reality, other towns more hiker friendly aren't really that far away, including Manchester Center VT, Woodstock NH, and Gorham. Granted, it would be nice to do laundry and shower, but that not that's not the end of the world. And, Velvet Rocks isn't that far out of town either.

[mikec]

One of the things I intend to do is look into seeing if we can get the bus to stop there or close by (if it doesn't already) in order to make things easier and safer for hikers who want to go there.
The bus does stop in front of the Inn when heading from Hanover and it stops about 250 beyond the Inn when going towards Hanover, due to safety reasons.

[modiyooch]

Where is my post about kiosk, directions to the doc building, proprietors and scenic AT blazes for the town??

[Jack Tarlin]

Nox:

The simple reality is that a "hiker campground" will attract problems and these problems will WORSEN relations between hikers and townspeople, never mind hikers and local law enforcement people.

I don't know if you read the whole thread, but you may be unaware that there already IS a
hiker campsite on the edge of town, and it has attracted drifters, non-hikers and partiers. There have been repeated problems there with litter, noise at night (and there are houses two minutes away), big fires, garbage, and assorted problems associated with partiers. If these problems continue, the present campsite will undoubtedly be closed and posted.


So in that this situation exists already, why on earth do you think that things will impriove if the town provides a new and improved "hiker campground?" As has alreeady been mentioned, a site without a permanent on-site caretaker will become a disaster area, and
the town isn't about to pay anyone to do this. And I assure you, the police have better things to do than drop by five times a night to check on things, and even if they did spend their time doing this, do you think it'd make them feel better towards visiting hikers?

So, no, I don't think this is an idea that the town will "love", and no, I'm not about to suggest or advocate it, either. I intend to go to this meeting with an open mind and with lots of good ideas........but this is decidedly not one of them.

Oh, and I can't think of one single community on or near the Trail that has installed, at town expense, coin-operated showers for hikers on the edge of town. I know of private businesses that have installed showers-for-pay, but towns? I can't think of one. For the umpteenth time, why do people expect Hanover to do things and provide things that NOBODY else is providing? How did Hanover get elected to be the one place to do this?

Honestly, folks, a little realism with some of your expectations would be helpful here.

[Jack Tarlin]

I just want to clarify something in my last post:

The fact that I am not going to personally advocate or suggest an idea to the committee of townspeople does not mean that these folks won't see an idea or suggestion that has been made here. As has already been stated, I intend to share this whole thread with people on the committee, including some who will have seen and read this thread BEFORE the meeting, so the fact that I won't necessarily introduce or suggest an idea does not mean your ideas or comments have been buried.

It merely means that I personally will not be responsible for suggesting or introducing an idea that I have grave misgivings or doubts about. There have been some fine ideas and comments here in recent days, and I look forward to discussing them at the upcoming meeting, and I look forward to some of them being considered and acted upon.

[rickb]

"Kep in mind that nearly every long-distance hiker ends up in the basement of the Dartmouth Outing Club..."

Why?

[Lemni Skate]

How about if the admissions department concentrated on accepting girls whose "turn-ons" include REALLY REALLY REALLY long walks in the woods.

[rickb]

Rather than look to provide more services for hikers, why not introduce/inform all those coming to Hanover from around the world (Parents, tourists slumming out of Woodstock etc.) about the AT, its traditions and a bit about those who have trod its path.

Not everyone has read "A walk in the Woods" or will even connect the book with the town.

Magic will follow.

Had such been the case when I walked thru in 1983, Charles Bronson may have smiled at me when I walked by.

[neighbor dave]

"Kep in mind that nearly every long-distance hiker ends up in the basement of the Dartmouth Outing Club..."

Why?

it's a great,free, out of site place to chill, and congregate, on rainy days.
plus, if memory serves me correctly, they have phones,( important before cell phones became standard equipment).
there are more benefits too, perfectly legit ones i might add, but shouldn't be mentioned here.

[rickb]

it's a great,free, out of site place to chill, and congregate, on rainy days.
plus, if memory serves me correctly, they have phones,( important before cell phones became standard equipment).
there are more benefits too, perfectly legit ones i might add, but shouldn't be mentioned here.

Like what? Do some get to shower?

[Jack Tarlin]

Rick:

Dave is correct about the basement of the Dartmouth Outing Club. It's a nice (and safe) place to leave your gear while you explore the town; there's a bulletin board there with information of use to hikers, i.e. info on people who may be putting up or shuttling hikers, special events going on itn town, people offering short-time jobs that hikers might be interested in, etc. There are sofas where people can hang out, there are computers available at all hours for free that hikers are welcome to use. There are large and clean bathrooms. Also, the staff of the Outing Club is always eager to help hikers out and answer their questions.

But the real answer to your question Rick, is that most hikers find their way to the basement of the Outing Club because their guidebooks prominently mention that checking this place out is a really good idea and a good way to start one's visit in Hanover.

[Jack Tarlin]

The showers/locker rooms in the Outing Club are kept locked; you need to know a combination to get into them; they are NOT available to the general public, and while on rare occasion a hiker may have received access to them, this is not standard policy and is not something hikers should expect or anticipate when they visit this building.

[rickb]

So no lockers to keep your pack in for the afternoon?

[Jack Tarlin]

No. But I've never heard of anyone losing anything here.

[rickb]

Is there a public pool in Hanover.

College town and all.

Could make the town more appealing to some.

[Jack Tarlin]

And before anyone posits that storage lockers here would be nice idea for the hikers, please be aware that Dartmouth's endowment went down 23% in the 2009 Fiscal Year, a loss of about $835 million. So I don't think they'd be too eager to spend thousands of bucks buying and installing lockers for hikers anytime soon.

[Jack Tarlin]

No YMCA and no public pool in Hanover, tho there is a pool at the Storrs Pond Campground; its use is restricted to paying guests of the place or townspeople. All Dartmouth athletic facilities are restricted to people from the College community and their guests. Townspeople and others may use these facilities if they pay a full-semester fee to do so, and it is hundreds of dollars. They do not at present permit day-use of these facilities by outsiders and I 've been told this is due to security and liability concerns. I do not expect these policies to change anytime soon.

[Jack Tarlin]

Rick:

I just checked their website, and apparently the pool and presumably the showers at Storrs Pond ARE open to the general public, tho I couldn't find the fee for this. I'll look into this and post whatever information I discover, but people should be aware that the site is a good distance from downtown Hanover and is not that easy to get to if you're on foot.

[rickb]

How about getting bus service to Stores Pond?

[modiyooch]

Oh, and I can't think of one single community on or near the Trail that has installed, at town expense, coin-operated showers for hikers on the edge of town.
I think it's economics. The hikers could partake of the classier places. The proprietors and their customers prefer the patrons smelling better. The hikers would blend in better with the social scene. That's why I suggested asking the proprietors what they want.

Not directly on the AT, but we had the good fortune of stumbling on a small town coming back from Monson that had public showers.
Also not hiker related, but they beach town that I swim provides a public bath house as well. It is economics. We go to the beach for the day. We travel 4 hours to get there, swim, drop $$$$ in the restaurants and stores, SHOWER, and travel 4 hours home. The shower actually facilitates the trip to that location.

[h. hastings]

Nox:

For the umpteenth time, why do people expect Hanover to do things and provide things that NOBODY else is providing? How did Hanover get elected to be the one place to do this?


Perhaps because a resident of the town asked how the Hanover experience can be improved for hikers.

[modiyooch]

Jack, Why do you think that the town would not utilize a public bathroom. I ran into local day hikers north of Hanover and runners south of Hanover. Who doesn't have to use the bathroom after activities like this? Also, DOC parents and visitors might need water and a bathroom after scouting out the AT that they just learned about in the university brochures. Then, how hard would it be to include a shower or two? It's not just catering to hikers. Towns do it all the time, bathroom facilities that is. It's called parks. You have an added attraction called the "AT"; hence, the showers.

[yaduck9]

Perhaps because a resident of the town asked how the Hanover experience can be improved for hikers.



Dude, your in the twilight zone..........logic doesn't work here;)

[Lone Wolf]

Jack, Why do you think that the town would not utilize a public bathroom. I ran into local day hikers north of Hanover and runners south of Hanover. Who doesn't have to use the bathroom after activities like this? Also, DOC parents and visitors might need water and a bathroom after scouting out the AT that they just learned about in the university brochures. Then, how hard would it be to include a shower or two? It's not just catering to hikers. Towns do it all the time, bathroom facilities that is. It's called parks. You have an added attraction called the "AT"; hence, the showers.

the town of Damascus provides nothing for hikers. private businesses do. Hanover should not build a bath house for hikers that are only there a couple months a year. the trail has been there for 60 years. hikers have been gettin' by just fine

[jersey joe]

the town of Damascus provides nothing for hikers. private businesses do. Hanover should not build a bath house for hikers that are only there a couple months a year. the trail has been there for 60 years. hikers have been gettin' by just fine
I agree, the town of Hanover shouldn't necessarily build any services for hikers but the local businesses, clubs, churches, etc. might choose to. Much like the church in Damascus has "The Place" which caters to hikers and offers showers. The Dartmouth Oudoors Club seems to serve this purpose somewhat already.

[Jester2000]

"Kep in mind that nearly every long-distance hiker ends up in the basement of the Dartmouth Outing Club..."

Why?

That's where they bury them.


. . . Oh, and I can't think of one single community on or near the Trail that has . . .

. . . done this or that or the other. I don't know if it's necessary or a good idea to constantly bring up the point that other towns haven't done something. Who cares? Just because something hasn't already been done by other communities doesn't automatically make it a bad idea.

I don't think anyone expects more from Hanover than other towns. I think people were asked for suggestions and are giving them. Some ideas may be poorly thought out (Jack is in a good position to think of available resources and unintended consequences), but let's not go shooting down ideas based on what others have and haven't already done.

[The Weasel]

Bulletin boards put up by municipal officials denote approval of the topic. That sends a message even to those who don't care what is on the board. That would be a good thing for the AT in Hanover.

TW

[nox]

Jack, you asked for suggestions on how the hiker experience could be improved. We offer suggestions and you shoot them down. You are making up the towns mind for them by doing this. If you don't like a suggestion thats fine but you don't need to be negative about it. Maybe no other town has done some of these things, but how many towns have set up meetings specifically for hikers? They must want to do something out of the ordinary or else why would they ask for input? Cheer up! not everyone is trying to argue with you!

[Jester2000]

Jack, you asked for suggestions on how the hiker experience could be improved. We offer suggestions and you shoot them down. You are making up the towns mind for them by doing this. If you don't like a suggestion thats fine but you don't need to be negative about it. Maybe no other town has done some of these things, but how many towns have set up meetings specifically for hikers? They must want to do something out of the ordinary or else why would they ask for input? Cheer up! not everyone is trying to argue with you!

He's not making up the town's mind for them -- he's already stated that he'll print out this thread and have the relevant people read it. If you understand that he's going to do that, you'll also understand why he feels it necessary to put the negative aspects of the suggestions in print here -- silence on his part might be interpreted as agreement, and people in town need to know what the unintended negative consequences of some of the suggestions might be.

[The Weasel]

Oh, and I can't think of one single community on or near the Trail that has installed, at town expense, coin-operated showers for hikers on the edge of town. I know of private businesses that have installed showers-for-pay, but towns? I can't think of one. For the umpteenth time, why do people expect Hanover to do things and provide things that NOBODY else is providing? How did Hanover get elected to be the one place to do this?

Honestly, folks, a little realism with some of your expectations would be helpful here.

Why do bars provide free peanuts and potato chips? To make people stay longer and get thirsty; that way they spend more money. Why should a town like Hanover - or Damascus - provide some inexpensive services? For the same reason: To make people stay longer and spend more money. That's a damn good reason, too. It's why, when I got peeved at one town along the Trail in '00 for it's police chief hassling me, I didn't complain to the Mayor. I went up to the Chamber of Commerce, had a friendly chat with its Director in which I said, "I just spent about $150 on a night's lodging, dinner, and resupply, and if paying visitors get treated like crap, don't expect good word of mouth." She agreed and did some very nice things for me. Visit Mars Hill, NC (even though it's a bit out of the way; their businesses "get it").

So Hanover has some real incentives, too. It can do some things that help hikers stay a bit long and spend a bit more money in town. If, for instance, 250 people stayed one day longer, and in doing so spent $100 each (which is about a minimum), that's the equivalent of one more job in town. Is that all that can be reaped by Hanover? Of course not. I've vacationed in Damascus several times because it made me feel welcomed and valued as an AT hiker. So I've brought a lot more value back because of that. (And yes, Damascus spends a fair chunk of change making life good for AT Hikers, not the least of which are its increased costs due to Trail Days.)

As for a place for lockers, outside (non coin operated, even) showers and some simply things like that, public restrooms have always been a municipal endeavor, and putting a couple of shower heads outside them is pretty common, too, and require far less "staffing" than Jack seems to think.

If Hanover thinks it can get an even better reputation for hikers without spending at least a few bucks, remember TANSTAAFL. If all of its residents are now NIMBYs like those in Norwich, and want hikers to keep moving on, well, close the thread, Jack. Can't have it both ways.

TW

[Jack Tarlin]

No need to close the thread, Weasel, it's doing just fine.

Quick question, tho: You just said that a municipality paying for and putting up a public bath-house is a pretty common thing.

Since it's so common, then please tell us where on the A.T. you've encountered this. Take as long as you need to answer, we'll still be here.

And Modiyooich:

There are any number of places where visitors to town, Dartmounth parents, etc., can utilize a public bathroom. There are dozens of them on campus and there are dozens of restaurants, bookstores, etc. with public facilities.

And even where folks are talking about putting a hiker facility, there is a perfectly nice public bathroom......it's in the Food Co-Op supermarket, a two minute walk from the present hiker campsite, and is open to the public all day long.

So the suggestion that there's no place for visitors to pee in town is pretty ridiculous. And the place we're talking about is NOT a public park by the way. It's an athletic field used by a very small number of people, and never after dark.

So putting up a public bath-house on the outskirts of town isn't going to happen, people, never mind a crash-pad gazebo or pavillion. I might add that nobody has yet suggested who should pay for such a building, never mind maintaining, or insuring such a facility, and it is a fact that "voluntary" payment to use such a place won't work. When it comes to offering "voluntary" payment for such things, hikers have a pretty poor track record, and anyone who suggests otherwise, in all honesty, hasn't hiked much. And in that there's nobody ever at the soccer field after dusk, Modi, there's absolutely no reason to believe that locals, visitors, or townspeople would either need or would use such a facility if one was built. As has been pointed out (maybe six times now), people that live in town or nearby have their own bathrooms and showers to use; so do the people that make up the Dartmouth community.

A facility on the edge of town would pretty much be utilized by hikers only, or by people masquerading as hikers, and there's no reason to expect Hanover to create such a facility. As has been stated, it'd cost the town money to build and keep up; it'd help attract problems and undesirables, and most important, it would not improve town/hiker relations. A permanent facility of any kind here would damage these relations, period.

Jersey: Other local institutions such as churches, etc., HAVE stepped up and offered services to hikersover the years , including lodging and showers. The record shows that this did not end well. Which is why I'd like to see a local business, perhaps one of the outdoor stores, step up here, and consider builiding a simple outdoor shower stall. For a nominal fee during business hours, hikers could use the facility, and it's construction and upkeep could presumably be paid by user fees. This has been done elsewhere. I think it'd work here, too, and I hope it becomes a reality.

But a permanent facility for hikers on the edge of town is not going to happen folks, so I wish some of you would give it a rest.

Final note to Mr. Hastings: Yes, I started this thread to get ideas and feedback, and we've seen some great suggestions. We've also seen some poor ones. Your profile says you hail from New Glarus, Wisconsin. Query: Has New Glarus recently constructed, at public expense, either a lodging or washing facility for transients, all of whom are capable of tarvelling and not working for six months?

No? gee, why not?

And why on earth do you think Hanover NH should be expected to do so?

Final note to RickB:

Bus service to Storrs is a possibility, but I'd rather see some sort of shower facility in town. And in that hikers wouldn't be overninghting at Storrs due to the cost of staying at the place, running a bus shuttle out there would essentially be a service ONLY for hikers, as every other visitor to Storrs arrives by automobile.

Meaning the idea of the town providing and subsidizing a bus service all summer solely so smelly hikers could catch a shower a few miles away isn't too likely.

[Jack Tarlin]

I just re-read Weasel's last post.

His suggestion that if folks stayed in Hanover an extra day they'd all spend $100.00 a piece is simply unrealistic. By the time many folks get here, they're on a very limited budget, Weasel, and whatever they might spend in town every day, it isn't going to be a hundred bucks. People that have that much discretionary income, Weasel, well they don't NEED a public bath-house, as they can afford their own motel room. Folks that fell compelled to camp in the woods by a field are doing so because of budget reasons, not for comfort, and to suggest that these folks are going to march back into town the next morning and spend a hundred extra bucks because the good townspeople bought them a bath-house......well I simply don't think this is accurate or realistic.

[Jester2000]

Meaning the idea of the town providing and subsidizing a bus service all summer solely so smelly hikers could catch a shower a few miles away isn't too likely.

Man, that would be one stinky bus.

[mudhead]

Which is why I'd like to see a local business, perhaps one of the outdoor stores, step up here, and consider builiding a simple outdoor shower stall. For a nominal fee during business hours, hikers could use the facility, and it's construction and upkeep could presumably be paid by user fees. This has been done elsewhere. I think it'd work here, too, and I hope it becomes a reality.

But a permanent facility for hikers on the edge of town is not going to happen folks, so I wish some of you would give it a rest.




Fine idea. I would buy stuff at said local biz. Even if it were a gift to send home. Course, I like outdoor showers. Utility sinks, too. Fussy people might not.

[nox]

maybe they could hook up a hose and a sprinkler then... I'll pay for it what's a sprinkler cost nowadays 20 bucks? :)

[Jack Tarlin]

Jester:

You've been a voice of reason and common sense here.

But I disagree with something you said in Post #171, above.

You said, plainly, that you don't think anyone here expects more from Hanover than what hikers habitually find in other towns.

But if you read some of the posts from the past few days, you'll see that this is precisely what some folks are suggesting and expecting, and all I'm doing is saying that these requests and suggestions are unreasonable. And as for my "shooting down ideas" because they haven't been done elsewhere, I suggest to you, Jester, that there's a perfectly good reason these ideas aren't being folloowed thru in other places:

*in some cases, these communities don't have the money to spend on such things
*In some cases, communities have seen private entities (churches, etc.) provide amenities
for hikers, and it has not ended well
*In some cases, communities simply don't see the need to spend municipal time, funding,
and manpower on such ventures
*In some cases, these innovative ideas simply won't work, for any number of reasons

So I'm sorry if you think I'm "shooting down ideas." I'm trying to keep some semblance of realism here, and the reality is that any number of people have repeatedly and indignantly sugested that the town of Hanover offer facilities and services that have either been tried elsewhere and haven't worked out, or they are thinking they are somehow entitled to march into Hanover and discover facilities and services here that simply don't exist anywhere else on the Trail.

And sorry to disappoint, but this simply isn't going to happen here.

Funny thing. I could announce here, Jester, that a local outfitter has agreed to subsidize the building and maintenance of an outdoor shower for hikers just minutes off of Main St. He could announce that it'd cost four dollars to use, be open from 9 to 5, and be limited to 15 minute's use. And you know what would happen, Jester? Fifteen people would immediately chime in that it costs too much, should be open all night, and that 15 minutes isn't enough time.

Honestly, there are some folks here that you just can't make happy.

[mudhead]

Don't laugh. 25' garden hose, with a shower spray nozzle, feels pretty good, when you are gummy. 200' in the sun gets hotter than you want.

[Jack Tarlin]

Back to useful input from you guys:

My last post to Jester begs the question: Assuming a local entity (Outfitter, whatever) takes the initiative and supplies the hikers with an outdoor shower facility (i.e. hot water, soap, towels, etc.), what do you think is a reasonable charge for such a service and what do you think hikers should be expected to pay for such a service?

If I suggest this idea next week, and I intend to, it'd help a great deal to get some feedback from folks who'd actually be using such a facility if one existed.

Thank you.

[modiyooch]

Sounds like a broken record. Might be a good time to end the thread. I really don't think your town officials are going to read 183 posts, Not a whole lot of fresh ideas being presented.

Jack, I didn't say people didn't have a place to pee. I said that coming off the trail for a daily activity, people would certainly use a public facility to pee and get water.

I liked the coin showers in Monson and Pinkham Notch. After showering in Monson, it was a just a few step to such fine dining. thanks monson!

Let us know the outcome of the meeting.

[Jester2000]

Jester:

You've been a voice of reason and common sense here.

Well I've never been so insulted in all my life.


My last post to Jester begs the question: Assuming a local entity (Outfitter, whatever) takes the initiative and supplies the hikers with an outdoor shower facility (i.e. hot water, soap, towels, etc.), what do you think is a reasonable charge for such a service and what do you think hikers should be expected to pay for such a service?

$4.00 to shower, $2.00 to watch.

Shower set on a 10 minute timer.

[modiyooch]

Don't laugh. 25' garden hose, with a shower spray nozzle, feels pretty good, when you are gummy. 200' in the sun gets hotter than you want.
To be perfectly honest, if I needed a shower when I came through I would have just used the pump at the athletic field.

I think the best thing to come out of this thread is the trail maintainer that said he would mark the intersection better at the soccer fields. Everything else seems to be fine and will probably stay the way it is unless a sole proprietor decides to capitalize on the shower deal.

Hanover is fine.

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, Modi, I don't think it's a good idea to end the thread, tho anyone who's bored can certainly go somewhere else.

In point of fact, you're very much mistaken when you say nobody's interested in reading these comments. I've already heard back from one guy (I wrote him and told him about this thread) and he not only thanked me for telling him about your comments, but he said he plans to read them and share them with other folks.

So actually, I think this dialogue has done some good. Anyone who posts something here (provided it isn't something removed by the Moderators for being off-topic) will indeed be read by town officials, business people, folks at the college, etc.

I'll be meeting with one of these folks on Monday so if anyone has ideas or comments before then, please keep them coming.

[Jack Tarlin]

Modi:

People coming off the Trail from the North already have a perfectly good place to pee or get a drink......it's called the Co-Op supermarket and it's perhaps a two minute walk from the treeline. You can se the place when you get out of the woods and its open all day long, seven days a week.

And if there are public showers in Monson, well I think that's fantastic; I haven't been there in a couple of years and was unaware of this. I don't think the 2009 Trail guides mention them so I assume they're a relatively new thing. In any case, great stuff, tho I'm curious at to who pays for them and maintains them. If it's the town, well good for them!

[Many Walks]

Well I've never been so insulted in all my life.



$4.00 to shower, $2.00 to watch.

Shower set on a 10 minute timer.
You might consider $2.00 for the shower and $4.00 to watch. Some girls will draw a crowd!

[Jack Tarlin]

Actually, I think several good things have ALREADY come from this thread: A local maintainer has said that he was unaware of the problems regarding signage and trailblazing and will look into improving it next year.

And several other great ideas have been presented, especially as regards raising awareness of the Town amongst townspeople and visitors, which will hopefully result in people viewing hikers a bit better and understanding what they're all about.

And your concerns and ideas have already been seen by folks here in town so even before the meeting they know about some of the things that are important to you guys.

So on the whole, I think this is a positive thing, this thread. I think some good has come out of it already, and I hope this continues.

[modiyooch]

I guess I am not clear in my postings. sorry about any confusion.
Yes, they will read the thread; but, after awhile one can receive too much of a good thing. I was referring to the length of the thread and rehashing of opinions.

It's not a town shower in Monson, but owned by the lady that owns the restaurant.

Again, please let us know the outcome of the meeting?

[Jack Tarlin]

Modi:

I'll report on the meeting as soon as it's over.

And yeah, like you, I'm sorry some of the posts were repetitive. That's what happens on an Internet forum sometimes.

For example, I must have very clearly explained why a "pavillion" at the edge of town was probably not such a hot idea and was unlikely to happen, especially at public expense, but people who evidently know better, including some who have never set foot here, thought they knew better.

In any case, thanks for your comments.

[neighbor dave]

Back to useful input from you guys:

My last post to Jester begs the question: Assuming a local entity (Outfitter, whatever) takes the initiative and supplies the hikers with an outdoor shower facility (i.e. hot water, soap, towels, etc.), what do you think is a reasonable charge for such a service and what do you think hikers should be expected to pay for such a service?

If I suggest this idea next week, and I intend to, it'd help a great deal to get some feedback from folks who'd actually be using such a facility if one existed.

Thank you.

i personally always liked the coin-op ones, that way you pay for what you use, i can shower fast, while others like to linger.

[neighbor dave]

p.s. plus it conserves water and energy

[Jack Tarlin]

Personally, Dave, I think that's a great idea (it works great in Shenandoah Park, for example). I just don't know if they'll go for the idea, never mind figure out a location, who's gonna pay for it, insure it, pay for its maintenance and upkeep, etc. But I'll certainly offer the idea.

[joec]

I just left there a couple of weeks ago. I loved the town. I can see why a cash starved hiker could have a hard time with this place, but I loved it.

[johnnybgood]

i personally always liked the coin-op ones, that way you pay for what you use, i can shower fast, while others like to linger.


p.s. plus it conserves water and energy
Agreed . $1 for 5 minutes of water. If you want a longer shower then insert more coins.
The soap and towel can be dispensed from a vending machine if one is desired.

[Lone Wolf]

nothing is needed in hanover. hikers know what to do by the time they get there. seriously :rolleyes:

[Wise Old Owl]

Never get my dad to pay quarters for a shower... He would rather jump in a cold stream.....

[The Weasel]

Jack:

You need to think a little. If you want suggestions and comments, be a conduit. Argue elsewhere. If you want to argue, don't invite comments.

First, I haven' suggested a "public bathhouse." There are public restroom buildings in a lot of the towns along the AT, usually in a city park. Damascus has one, for instance, in the town park. Installing an outside shower head and a push-button water button isn't a "bath house." Having a stall wall and door that covers modesty areas is minor. Just as the rest room is closed at night in most places. the water would go off there, too. Those areas would need no more patrolling than they now receive.

Second, $100 is a valid number. Anyone staying at a motel is going to pay most of $50 for one night. Three meals for one day is going to be, even at the most modest of places in Hanover, $25. Resupply is going to be most of $25 as well. If someone takes in a flick and has a few more beers, that's another $25. You've mentioned the cost of motels in Hanover too, Jack. So don't sound so hostile.

Lastly, many towns have created pavillions and wash areas, lockers and shower areas, as part of homeless programs, whether in Wisconsin, California or the New England States. If Hanover hasn't, it will, soon, as the problem increases. Those facilities are not restricted. So while they don't need to happen for AT people, they are happening anyhow. There is no reason why hikers cannot be represented in the process of considering how to make such facilities useful to more people.

Jack, you can have opinions too. But perhaps you might let your civic contact decide which ideas are good and which are less useful. That, or perhaps you should get an official position, which I know you would be qualified for. Otherwise, let people provide ideas in good faith and be a little less confrontational.

TW

[rickb]

Here is another thought.

Hikers sometimes have blinders on. With all the time they spend in town on contemporary hikes you would think they might see something of the local color and culture.

In some places that might be a rib joint.

In Williamstown, it might be a walk through the Clark Institute. That place is amazing even if you didn't grow up next to a cornfield.

Now Hanover has more than a few hidden gems.

Those wanting to create something of a Hanover experience for hikers might simply extend a welcoming hand. Be it to see some art, and athletic event, a free harpsichord recital or whatever. Plenty of ways to get the word out.

Just my $.02

[Jack Tarlin]

Rick has made a good point. Hikers passing thru town would do well to stop by the Collis Student Center (on the town green next to the Outing Club building). There is a calendar of daily events posted there for anyone to check out, and there are all sorts of events taking place every day, all open to the public, and many of them free or at minimal cost. There's also an information desk manned by friendly people who'll be glad to answer your questions, give you directions, etc.

[yaduck9]

Jack:

You need to think a little. If you want suggestions and comments, be a conduit. Argue elsewhere. If you want to argue, don't invite comments.

First, I haven' suggested a "public bathhouse." There are public restroom buildings in a lot of the towns along the AT, usually in a city park. Damascus has one, for instance, in the town park. Installing an outside shower head and a push-button water button isn't a "bath house." Having a stall wall and door that covers modesty areas is minor. Just as the rest room is closed at night in most places. the water would go off there, too. Those areas would need no more patrolling than they now receive.

Second, $100 is a valid number. Anyone staying at a motel is going to pay most of $50 for one night. Three meals for one day is going to be, even at the most modest of places in Hanover, $25. Resupply is going to be most of $25 as well. If someone takes in a flick and has a few more beers, that's another $25. You've mentioned the cost of motels in Hanover too, Jack. So don't sound so hostile.

Lastly, many towns have created pavillions and wash areas, lockers and shower areas, as part of homeless programs, whether in Wisconsin, California or the New England States. If Hanover hasn't, it will, soon, as the problem increases. Those facilities are not restricted. So while they don't need to happen for AT people, they are happening anyhow. There is no reason why hikers cannot be represented in the process of considering how to make such facilities useful to more people.

Jack, you can have opinions too. But perhaps you might let your civic contact decide which ideas are good and which are less useful. That, or perhaps you should get an official position, which I know you would be qualified for. Otherwise, let people provide ideas in good faith and be a little less confrontational.

TW


Give it up WEASEL, there is a hidden agenda being pushed; A friend of a friend is working toward an entrepreneurial solution. The fix is being put in place. You and i are just along for the ride. Enjoy the scenery.......;)

[Mango]

Jack, you've challenged us to name someplace on the AT with free showers at public expense. The state of Maryland provides same at Dalhgren Campground, or at least they did in '06. Also, you shouldn't be so quick to discount Weasel's estimate of money spent by hikers during an extra night in town. Not all hikers are almost broke, some have enough $ and some have credit cards. Staying in town another night means at least one or two meals, maybe a postcard to two, some ice cream, a couple of pizzas and a beer (before breakfast), a movie, a drug store trip, a gear repair, a haircut, etc. Not everybody buys all these things, but enough would that the cumulative effect would be significant. Several posters used to do economic impact studies in previous lives, and Weasel's guesstimate is not way out of line. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to make suggestions; let the local officials decide which are reasonable and which are goofy.

[Lone Wolf]

Jack, you've challenged us to name someplace on the AT with free showers at public expense. The state of Maryland provides same at Dalhgren Campground, or at least they did in '06. Also, you shouldn't be so quick to discount Weasel's estimate of money spent by hikers during an extra night in town. Not all hikers are almost broke, some have enough $ and some have credit cards. Staying in town another night means at least one or two meals, maybe a postcard to two, some ice cream, a couple of pizzas and a beer (before breakfast), a movie, a drug store trip, a gear repair, a haircut, etc. Not everybody buys all these things, but enough would that the cumulative effect would be significant. Several posters used to do economic impact studies in previous lives, and Weasel's guesstimate is not way out of line. Thanks for giving us the opportunity to make suggestions; let the local officials decide which are reasonable and which are goofy.

hikers are only there for 2 months a year. what they spend means nothing compared to what the student's mommy and daddy does. hikers money is nothing. bottom line

[Mango]

That's not what I heard at MRO or the Vol Fire Dept chicken dinner. All generalizations are false, including this one.

[Jack Tarlin]

Mango:

I have never questioned whether or not there were showers on the Trail put there at "public expense". Your Maryland example is one such case. There are also showers at Fontana Dam (free) and in Shenandoah National Park (a nominal fee). There are any number of other public showers at various State Parks. Please note that these facilities were placed (and are presumably maintained) by State or Federal entities, and not individual towns.

What I said was that I knew of no community (i.e. no Trail town) that had taken this expense upon itself. If there is a Trail town that has erected free public showers on or near the A.T., I'm unaware of it, tho the Vernon Fire/Resuce service offered this for awhile; I don't know if they still do.

But the Hanover case is quite different, as the public showers people seem to expect would esentially be utilized only by hikers. As has been pointed out (several times now), the folks who live here neither need nor would use such things. They live here quite comfortably, Mango, most of them in houses that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. These dwellings all have their own plumbing included. Or they live in apartments or college residences. In short, and I don't know how many times it needs to be said, there isn't a pressing need for a public bathhouse in Hanover NH. It would inevitably be used for hikers only. And the town is not about to pay for it. Not to build it, not to insure it, not to police it, and not to clean it. If a private business wants to put in such a facility, and maintain it at a nominal fee to users, well I think that's great.

But I do not expect the town to do so. The communities up and down the Trail, regardless of their size or wealth, do not as a rule have such facilities, and I cannot for the life of me see why people expect Hanover to offer this quite singular amenity.

I trust this answers Mango's question.

I further trust that I'll have to repeat this again within the hour for someone else. :rolleyes:

[Jack Tarlin]

Mango:

I never questioned Weasel's statement that folks who spend an extra day here or who zero out here will spend money. Of course they will.

What I questioned was whether or not people who need to rely on a public bath-house have that much extra money to spend, and no, I don't think they do.

One can share a motel room here (spilt several ways) for less than 35.00 to 40.00 dollars.

Hikers that can't afford to do that are sleeping by the soccer field and I very much doubt these folks are spending $100.00 a day or anything like it.

I encountered dozens of hikers in town this year.

Here's a typical "extra" zero day for someone who has elected to extend their time in Hanover and a list of probable expenses. And remember, this is the typical spending of someone who can't afford to even share a room, much less get their own.

*Wake up in the woods by the Soccer Field
*Go into nearby Food Co-Op supermarket; use toilet, wash face.
*Buy juice and a muffin as a full breakfast at Lou's ($12.00-17.00) isn't in the budget.
*Walk into town, browse the bookstore, pick up a bus schedule for later
*Go to Howe Public Library; check E-Mail, update journal
*Get free slice of hiker pizza at Ramunto's next to the library
*Take bus tonearby West Lebanon. Browse EMS and L.L. Bean Buy some Aquamira.
*Go up to Wal-Mart. Purchase batteries and a one dollar winter hat.
*Get lunch at Burger KIng.
*Back to Hanover. Run into friends on Main St., go with them for coffee at Cowboy Cafe
*Go up to Outing Club building, check E-Mail again
*Meet friends at EBA's for AYCA dinner special.
*Go with them to Five Olde and have three two-buck PBR's. Some of them are going to a
movie but you can't really afford it.
*Walk back to Soccer Field with friends; stop at Stinson's and split a 12 pack with friends.
*Lights out

Well there's a full day in town, and you know what......you didn't spend 100 bucks or anywhere near it, and some of the money you spent wasn't even spent in Hanover.

Because this is what it's like when you're on a budget.......you simply can't spend money on everything you see.

My point, Mango, is that if you and your friends can afford a $100.00 a night motel room, then you probably will have some discretionary money to spend on your day off (tho I still think $100.00 is high for a lot of folks).

But if you aren't on a budget (i.e. you're the kind of person who has to tent when in town due to budgetary restrictions) then you're not gonna spend anywhere near a hundred dollars, especially if you've already been in town awhile.

Are there some hikers who'll spend quite a bit of money when here in Hanover? Of
course they are. And that's great. But people that need to rely on a public bathing facility simply aren't going to be spending money freely; if they had it to spend, they wouldn't be sleeping by a soccer field.

So sorry, I don't agree with Weasel's estimate as regards the people who'd be patronizing a publicly funded shower. We had a ton of folks stay out at our place this summer and damned few of them spent a hundred dollars on their second or third days in town. They simply weren't budgeted for it even without having to pay for lodging.

[h. hastings]

Mr. Tarlin,

New Glarus has not erected either a lodging or washing facility for transients. You ask why not? Simply put, we have no transient population moving through town as do communities along the AT, so why would the idea ever be considered?

I don't expect the town of Hanover to provide any services for hikers. As Lone Wolf has pointed out the revenue generated by hikers is probably a fraction of that generated by Dartmouth and its students. The original intent of this thread though was to solicite ideas that would make the Hanover experience a more positive one for hikers. Suggestions have been provided some of which you felt were unworkable. If you only wanted ideas that you thought would be successful this process might have been expedited if you had provided a list of what those were at the outset.

I applaud your willingness to act as a representative and conduit of information for the AT hiking community. Kudos to the Hanover town government and business community for initiating the discussion. Whatever decisions and changes are made I hope the hiking community shows its appreciation as well.

[yaduck9]

Have to take a break; my eyes are worn out from reading.....:(

[neighbor dave]

i used the shower that was on the trail, well actually used two of them, one was at that shelter where you can order pizza, and the other one was near there, on the left side of the trail near a field if memory serves me correctly, both public free showers.

[neighbor dave]

while neither are "right in town" i showered for free in two places directly on the A.T.
mile # 523.2 nobo partnership shelter

mile # 1019.8 nobo gathland state park

while nice, i could've done without.
just showing examples here and not advocating that hanover "must" follow this lead.

i think in the hanover case, using exsisting shower facilities, (where ever they may be or whomever is running them) might be a good option.

[Jack Tarlin]

Just wanted to let you know that I'm meeting with one of the town officials tomorrow and will give him a print copy of this whole thread.

Thank you for your contributions to this discussion, and I'll certainly let you know what, if anything, comes out of all this.

And the accusation that I'm not interested in hearing from other people on this subject, or that I'm not planning on sharing your ideas with others is also not true. After all, please read the first post on this thread: If I wasn't interested in getting other ideas and suggestions to bring to this upcoming meeting, then why on earth did I start the thread in the first place? From the outset of this discussion, I've wanted to get ideas and suggestions from other hikers, and thanks again to those who made useful contributions here.

[The Weasel]

It will be interesting to hear the response from your contact, not only for what (s)he says about the reaction for Hanover, but how it might serve as the basis for suggestions for other towns. I hope you'll give us all a report and continue to update as this progresses through the town's consideration.

TW

[Jack Tarlin]

Of course I will, Weasel.

The most important thing, as far as I'm concerned will be a shower facility somewhere, and if NOTHING else is accomplished, this is enough. The lodging thing is tough one. As has been explained above, I don't see a hostel opening near downtown anytime soon, and town and police officials want to keep the present campsite area north of town low key, i.e. there isn't going to be any kind of facility/pavillion there anytime soon. Incidentally, Dartmouth College is about to announce a new round of layoffs tomorrow, meaning dozens of good local people are about to lose their jobs. Among other things, the very idea of the college spending money on transient visitors (i.e. hikers) on such things as a bathroom, lockers, etc. just isn't realistic right now and won't be for awhile.

I wish things were different here, like I wish there was good cheap lodging. I wish there was a laundromat; I wish there was a full-service outfitter still in town. I wish there was a supermarket where normal people could realistically shop. On the other hand, the outdoor shops in town are friendly and helpful and have most of what hikers need. There are places to do laundry and to share a motel room not far from town. There's a wonderful free bus service that more folks should take advantage of. It'll take you in a few minutes to West lebanon, where one can find everything that is missing here.

And lastly, despite a few strident remarks from a comparative handful of people, Hanover
is indeed a friendly place, and it's ful of people who, over the years, are happy to extend a
welcoming hand to visiting hikers. After all, manyof the folks who live here ARE hikers.

Anyway, I'm about to copy this whole thread right now so I'll have a copy tomorrow, and I hope it proves interesting to the town, Colllege, and business people who I'll be meeting in the days to come.

Thanks again to everyone who helped out here, and if anything concrete comes out of these meetings with townspeople, I'll sure let you know.

[vthiker]

I'm headed out tomorrow afternoon to re-paint the blazes from Elm St. in Norwich to the Co-op gas station in Hanover. Hopefully that should help.

jason

[Jack Tarlin]

Very cool. If it's mid to late afternoon, drop by the Dirt Cowboy and have some coffee.

I'll be the bespectacled large gent in black reading a newspaper.

In any case, thanks for everything you do.

See, this thread has already accomplished something!!

[Jack Tarlin]

Well, I just got back from meeting two great guys at the Cowboy Cafe and had a great talk.

*Some good news: There is real hope on the shower front, and it might, repeat MIGHT happen at the Food Co-op as one of the people on the committee has some good connections there. Lots of details to be worked out here.

*The idea of making the Trail better known to townspeople and other visitors was rell-received, the idea being that if more people realize they're on the famous Appalachian Trail, then they'll have a better appreciation for it, and a better understanding of who the
unkempt bearded people are. We discussed different things, such as signage, banners,
a bulletin board, etc. They also liked the idea of putting stuff in the pavement, tho obviously this would be a long process, i.e. getting permission from the town, submitting and approving designs, picking location, figuring out costs, etc. I'm going to get in touch with folks in Hot Springs and get more information on how they achieved success with
their sidewalk A.T. project. While we're on the subject, if anyone has some good photos of the Hot Springs sidewalk installations, please send them to this thread as folks want a better idea of what we're talking about here.

*They like the idea of an annual "Hiker Day" in town with a cookout, literature and information tables, etc. This would most likely happen in summertime at the height of
hiker season.

*A pavillion is not going to happen anytime soon, and in fact, the present campsite may
not continue either, tho we'll certainly work with town/law enforcement people to try and keep it open and available. Better co-operation from hikers wouldn't hurt either.

*The idea of working with the local bus company in order to get some better bus stops (like at the motels, etc.) was well received.

*While there may not be a big kiosk, the idea of some sort of sign or bulletin board was very well received, as it would help both hikers and passers-by. I suggested that such a sign first and foremost let people know they were actually ON the Trail; it'd have a map of the whole Trail with Hanover prominently highlighted; it'd show the mileage distances from both Springer and Katahdin; it would tell folks what the white blazes were for; and lastly, it'd encourage people seeking more information on the Trail to either visit the nearby Outing Club building or to contact the ATC in Harpers Ferry. All of this information could very easily be includied on a reasonably sized sign; all that remains is to get it approved and find the best location. Along these lines, the Trail might be moved to the other side of Main St. which i thinkis a great idea.

*It was agreed that better signage and blazing is needed in Hanover, especially near the
Food Co-Op and Gas Station at the north end of town, as right now, it's difficult for hikers
to see where the Trail actually goes, where one should cross busy Lebanon St., etc. This new blazing may well be done this week !

Anyway, all in all, a very productive first meeting, and we'll be getting together again before too long. I suggested that in addition to local hikers, we also make sure and get representatives from City Hall; the Dartmouth Outing Club; the Police Department; the Chamber of Commerce; and perhaps the local ATC rep as well.

Anyway, we're off to a good start here and I'll keep you guys informed of future developments and ideas. Oh, and this thread was duly noted and commented on; these guys are indeed aware of your comments and suggestions, so feel free to keep them coming. Thank you!!

[The Weasel]

Nice job, Dude.

TW

[chiefduffy]

Thanks Jack. Nice work.

[Montana]

*The idea of making the Trail better known to townspeople and other visitors was rell-received, the idea being that if more people realize they're on the famous Appalachian Trail, then they'll have a better appreciation for it, and a better understanding of who the
unkempt bearded people are. We discussed different things, such as signage, banners,
a bulletin board, etc. They also liked the idea of putting stuff in the pavement, tho obviously this would be a long process, i.e. getting permission from the town, submitting and approving designs, picking location, figuring out costs, etc. I'm going to get in touch with folks in Hot Springs and get more information on how they achieved success with
their sidewalk A.T. project. While we're on the subject, if anyone has some good photos of the Hot Springs sidewalk installations, please send them to this thread as folks want a better idea of what we're talking about here.


Here is a good shot:
7358

[neighbor dave]

it would have to be salt and shovel proof, it snows up here

[MileMonster]

Hey everyone. I am one of the folks that met with Jack at Dirt Cowboy today. My neighbor has gotten the ball rolling on this and is sort of spearheading the effort with the town. I think that everyone that loves the AT owes him their thanks. I think only good things for hikers can result from this. He also maintains the section of trail from Happy Hill into Norwich. I walked with him on a recent maintenance trip and he floated some of these issues by me to get a thruhiker's perspective. Per his invitation, I sat in on the meeting with the town, college, and AT folks last week and in the meeting with Jack today. I'm happy to say that the town appears genuinely interested in improving the hiker's experience in Hanover. This is good for hikers, even if you're Hanover experience was good to begin with.

There are a lot of excellent ideas and discussions about Hanover and the AT on this thread. Thanks to Jack for creating the thread and thanks for all of the input. Keep it coming. It is helpful to get a lot of ideas on the table and then figure out which are do-able, and of the do-able which are the most valuable. I didn't read this thread before going to the meeting today and everyone should know just about every idea I've seen here was brought up. There was no "culling" of ideas, lol.

When I thruhiked the Trail I did not yet live in Hanover. I can say that my Hanover experience when I passed through was top notch. Had a good enough experience to subsequently move here, anyway. Got here mid afternoon, Collis, chilled, ate, Ben and Jerry's, small resupply at the little Co-op, got a ride to the Sunset where they did my laundry, slept, got up, bus to town, breakfast at Lou's, hiked out. Two days later I was in Glencliff and the Hiker's Welcome where I had a big resup package at the PO. No major excitement, but no worries either. I can understand how others' experiences and opinions may differ, though. Hopefully we, as a town, can improve for everyone. I personally would like to do more shuttling, magic, and maybe a hiker cookout or two in the summer. We'll see...

Thanks again for all the input. All of it is extremely valuable.

- MM.

[vthiker]

Jack, thanks for starting this thread! It looks like a lot of good changes will likely come about, and hopefully be in place ( at least some of them), before next summer!

Kudos!

[The Weasel]

MM ---

What a great post! Perhaps some of the things that Hanover considers will be looked at by other towns along the trail, too, as Hanover sets an example for being considerate. Even thinking about these things is progress. Again, thanks.

TW

[srestrepo]

Ya know, i appreciate visiting little towns like that. i actually really liked visiting hanover and i found its appearance to be appealing. but being a younger hispanic male, large in stature and build and then to top it off i smelled bad and was carrying a huge backpack - people just didn't want anything to do with me and would give me dirty looks. i had one older couple cross the street. i mean i take offense to things like that. now i know that maybe Hanover isn't the most diverse place in the world but i've been to plenty of other trail towns that weren't as blatant in their attempts to alienate someone based on appearance. this is supposed to be a trail town, i think that the expectation should be set that people who want to walk in the woods aren't necessarily the norm and probably think/look/act a bit different than most. that isn't to say that we're uneducated or we have some inclination to harm or steal, but we're just different and if a tail runs right through a town like that, the least that can be expected should be a hello or someone to actually point you in the right direction of a good place to eat instead of ignoring you if you kindly ask "excuse me".

jack i like you town. i really do. i just wish i hadn't had the experiences that i did with the majority of people who would have rather risked life and limb running across main st than to point me towards Lou's Lunch...

the mountain goat, and the other outfitter in town are very helpful and knowledgeable, the staff at lous lunch were kind too. but i just can't get over the stares and silent judgement...

[neighbor dave]

i'd have to say that hanover has got to be one of, if not the most diverse towns in all of nh, maybe short of manchester, (but that's a city, the biggest in nh). hanover is an ivy league town, waaaay before a trail town, and unfortunately might have some inherant traits that go along with it.
no doubt about it, unfortunately so, nh needs some cultural flavour, i know i live here (nh) and have traveled the world.
hope your next experience is better than the last:welcome

[neighbor dave]

p.s. let me add, "when school is in session":welcome

[Cadence]

I'm the Hanover resident referred to by MileMonster who gathered the group that would like to do our best to help Hanover serve the needs of hikers on the AT and to help our citizens and residents understand the tremendous historic and current value of the trail. I'd like to thank Jack for sending this query to Whiteblaze.net and the many folks who have contributed a terrific array of suggestions, comments, and perspectives on Hanover, the trail, and its hikers.

Our group, with some additions, will meet again in January (after the crush of the holidays, since it involves officials from the town and the chamber of commerce) to consider this wealth of input.

[MileMonster]

Hey folks,

Many of the posts on this thread recognized that the North in general, and Hanover in particular, are fairly expensive parts of the Trail; especially for NB hikers that are on tight budgets. Some suggested that info on where to find cheaper hiker items would be helpful. Well, one great thing for hikers here in Hanover is that the AT passes right by a grocery store. However, the Hanover Coop has the reputation for being a little on the pricey side. I did a little comparison shopping for some items typically purchased by hikers at the Coop and the large Price Chopper grocery store in West Lebanon. The results were a bit surprising.

Price Comparisons (Item, Price Chopper price, Coop Price)

Instant Oatmeal (the standard Quaker box): PC = $3.99; C = $4.39
Pop tarts (box): PC = $2.39; C = $2.49
Snickers (bar): PC = $0.89; C = 0.95
Nature Valley Sweet and Salty bars (box): PC = $3.49; C = $3.29
Nutri Grain Cereal Bars (box): PC = $3.99; C = $3.49
Nabs, like Keebler Cheese on Wheat (box): PC = $2.89; C = $2.69
Cookies (1 lb bag on nutter butters): PC = $4.29; C = $3.99
Cookies (Fig Newtons): PC = $3.99; C = $3.99
Cliff Bars (bar): PC = 4 for $5.00; C = $1.59 ea
Balance Bars (bar): PC = $1.19; C = $1.79
Lipton Rice Sides: PC = $1.59; C = $1.45
Lipton Noodles and Sauce: PC = $1.59; C = $1.65
Near East Couscous: PC = $2.79; C = $2.39
Kraft Mac and Cheese: PC = $1.49; C = $1.39
Annie's Mac and Cheese: PC = $1.89; C = $1.99
Ramen (typical 1-serving pack): PC = $0.25 ea; C = 4 for $1.49
Thai Kitchen noodles: PC = $0.99; C = $0.89
Tuna (foil packed, chunk light, 6.4 oz): PC = $3.59; C = $2.49
Ice cream: I didn't check this because you have to walk right past Ben and Jerry's on your way to the Coop

Like many folks, I expected the Coop to not only be more expensive across the board, but significantly so. These numbers show, however, that not only is the Coop comparable in price to the big, chain supermarket, it is actually less expensive for many items on the typical hiker shopping list. (Cripes, now how are we gonna keep the riff-raff out of town, lol)

Some caveats: First, the Coop that is right on the Trail is locally known as the "Little Coop" because...well, its little. That and the "Big Coop" is a larger store down the road. What that means for the hiker is that selection is limited as compared to a large store that can stock many more items. So you have 5 varieties of Lipton Noodles and sauce instead of 15, and two kinds of nabs instead of 10, etc. Second, some items I know are more expensive at the Coop - like the seafood/meats for instance. But I haven't met any hikers toting a salmon out of town for dinner. Typical hiker fare appears to be similar in price if not cheaper at the Hanover Coop. Yeah, blows my mind, too.

So, the moral of the story. Well, unless you have special needs or just want variety, there doesn't seem to be a price reason to take the bus to West Leb to shop for food. Just because the Coop has a really nice wine and cheese department doesn't mean it is more expensive than a chain supermarket. This doesn't mean that the shoppers in that wine and cheese aisle will be friendly, but maybe we can spread the word that the Coop right on the Trail has food that is just as cheap if not cheaper than the local chain stores.

Hope this helps.

- MM.

[Jack Tarlin]

Interesting post, and as a resident of Hanover, this surprised me.

Then again, I use the "Price Chopper" Advanatge Card (which anyone can get free by the way merely be asking for one) which reduces the price on all sorts of things. For example, last time I was in Price Chopper, Liptons were .99 each, etc. and lots of other hiker standards like Pop Tarts, Tuna Pouches, Peanut Butter, etc. were similarly discounted.

Where the Co-op is utterly ridiculous is meat and produce. Last week, I swear, tomatoes cost more per pound there than London Broil steak did at Price Chopper.

But in any case, Mile Monster's post is informative and interesting.

[Jack Tarlin]

Something I want to run by you guys, see what you think:

I recently suggested that the Trail be moved a bit in Hanover. Right now, coming from Vermont, it crosses Main St. at the Green and then takes a right down Main St., going by the Hanover Inn, continues on for a block, and then turns left on Lebanon St.

My idea is this: Have it cross Wheelock St. at the Green and proceed down the OTHER side of Main St. This would place all sorts of hiker-friendly shops and businesses right ON
the Trail or very close to it, such as the Dirt Cowboy Cafe; 5-Olde Nugget restaurant; Murphy's on the Green; the Canoe Club; both bookstores, etc. It would also put the bus stop by the bookstore directly ON the Trail; it would place such hiker-friendly businesses as Stinson's; EBA's; and the Bagel Basement just yards off the Trail.

It would also mean the Trail would go right by the benches in front of Town Hall, where we hope to put up some sort of kiosk/bulletin board/information. The Trail would then cross Main St. near Molly's restaurant, and would then proceed down the OTHER side of Lebanon St. from where it is at present, i.e after you got past the Post Office. This would put the Trail right by such businesses as Ben and Jerry's; C&A Pizza; Hanover Outdoors; Jewel of India. The Trail would continue down Lebanon St. and cross that busy street just after the High School. It would then go past the Food Co-op and service station before cutting left along the soccer field into the woods.

Moving the Trail across the street would have all sorts of advantages......it'd put all sorts of hiker-friendly and hiker-useful businesses directly ON the Appalachian Trail; it'd put the Town Hall area right on the Trail; it'd put the Post Office right ON the Trail, it'd put the lebanon St. businesses right on the Trail, it'd place such places as the Hardware Store; Ramunto's Pizza; and the Howe Public Library closer to the Trail, etc.

All this would entail is some new paint-blazing on the other side of Main and Lebanon Streets.

Any thoughts on this? I can't see any downside.

Oh, and remember this is a straightforward thread so please keep your posts on-topic and to the point.

[The Weasel]

I don't remember the side of the street I was on, but it's a little surprising that ONE side of a street is "on trail" and the other is essentially a "blue blaze." I never realized that if I was on the wrong side of a street in a town like Hanover, Hot Springs or Damascus that I was "off the trail." Egad.

I'd suggest having both sides painted.

TW

[Jack Tarlin]

The Trail is always blazed on ONE side of a street, road, highway, etc. This makes it VERY easy for hikers to stay on the Trail as there is no doubt as to where they ought to be walking, where the turns are, etc. In some cases, it's probably safer to have the blazes on one side only. So no, I don't think blazing both sides of the street is a good idea. Can anyone think of a place where this is presently done?

[The Weasel]

I'm not being funny or trying to provoke, but that's sort of like saying, "If the blaze is on the right side of the path, you have to hug that side of it" on a two track. And just because it might not be done elsewhere, doesn't seem like it couldn't be done. I mean if the trail is "Main Street", yes, it's blue blazing to go down Second Street (or whatever), but to be on the other sidewalk is "illegal"? Maybe an ATC decision, but gosh!

TW

[Jester2000]

Nope. I think your idea is a good one -- I'd be willing to bet many hikers take the immediate right at that first intersection anyway, which may be why so many people have mentioned getting lost (because the blazes are on the other side of the street and they miss them).

Now all we have to do to get this relo going is an impact study, which should only take a few months. Kidding.

[neighbor dave]

i didn't find navagation in hanover to be a problem.
i like it where it currently is, so no, keep it the way it is.
question, isn't the A.T. sidewalk thingy on the east side anyway??
if it aint broke, don't fix it.
anyway just my opinion.:sun

[XCskiNYC]

[suhhhhhhhhhhhh-NIP]......

In no particular order, here are some of my suggestions:

*It'd be great if one of the local businesses, perhaps on of the several out-
door stores, could erect some sort of hiker shower for the season and
charge a nominal fee for its use and upkeep. Hikers would benefit and so
would patrons and staffs of local businesses, restaurants, etc.




Let's go one better. Make the shower mandatory. Like orientation day at a prison. That would be so beneficial for all those sensitive-nostriled patrons and staffs.

[The Weasel]

Let's go one better. Make the shower mandatory. Like orientation day at a prison. That would be so beneficial for all those sensitive-nostriled patrons and staffs.

Why not just skip to the chase and make one day in jail mandatory? They have showers there. Free ones. Don't drop the soap, though.

TW

[Jack Tarlin]

Re. the "Don't drop the soap jokes" etc. Please keep in mind this is a staightforward thread, period.

Also, in regards to the suggestion that both sides of Main St. be blazed, as has been pointed out, this isn't done elsewhere, i.e. everywhere the Trail goes thru a town or down a long stretch of pavement, it's very clear which side is blazed, i.e. which side is the Trail.

And if we go back to the beginning of this thread, several people quite rightly pointed out that the painting/blazing in town is not that great in some places and it's actually hard to determine where one is supposed to walk in a few places. Blazing BOTH sides of Main St. will hardly help alleviate this problem. For example, pretend you're a Northbounder, you just crossed the bridge from Vermont and are heading up the hill to town. At the corner of Main and Wheelock you see a blaze on a pole. You also see one on the other side of Main St. by the Hanover Inn. But then you see yet ANOTHER one on a pole in front of the Cowboy Cafe.

You know what? Your first thought isn't gonna be "Cool! Both sides of Main St. are blazed!!"

No. What you're gonna be thinking is "I see blazes everywhere, this side, that side.........which way am I supposed to go?"

So, no, all blazing BOTH sides of the street will do is confuse people.

And as to the "If it isn't broke why alter it" comment, I think I pointed out in some detail the advantages there would be if the Trail were slightly shifted. In brief, it would route the Trail directly past a great many more hiker-related and hiker-friendly businesses; it'd route the Trail past the information kiosk and convenient benches; it'd route the Trail directly past the bus stop where hikers could then go to West Lebanon or the nearby Sunset Motel; it'd route the Trail directly past the Post Office; and it'd make the road crossing down by the Food Co-Op much more easily navigable.

In any case, if they're gonna blaze just ONE side of Main and Lebanon Streets, it seems to make sense to have hikers travel the sides of the street where the most goods, services, and features are located.

[Tin Man]

I agree with Jack 100% on this one. Don't blaze both sides of the street, or at least not the same color. It might be interesting to blaze one site of the street white and the other side blue -or- Jack's suggested altenate route. The kiosk could then say: whiteblaze hikers are pure, please be kind; blueblaze hikers are trash, please don't feed them. :cool:

[neighbor dave]

help me with my memory jack,
isn't there an A.T. sidewalk plaque on the east side of the street, on the corner near the expensive hotel?
the street isn't that wide where if one were to walk on the east side,(todays A.T.) that they wouldn't be able to see those establishments on the west side, maybe even better. plus i think most if not all hikers spend a better part of a day, if not more, on both sides of the street.
i hope this has everything to do with making it better all around for everyone and not some kind of marketing tool.
again, just my opinion/suggestion, not at all looking for a debate.:sun

[Lone Wolf]

i don't get it. for decades the majority of folks attempting a thru-hike don't make it to hanover and the ones that do have no problem gettin' around and finding stuff. why the urgency all of a sudden?

[saimyoji]

i don't get it. for decades the majority of folks attempting a thru-hike don't make it to hanover and the ones that do have no problem gettin' around and finding stuff. why the urgency all of a sudden?


i posted this back in like post # 3 or 4, but someone found it fit to delete.....its all about money. Hanover is feeling the pinch, and wants to pinch as much out of anything they can. we only here about hiking pinch from jack, but i'll bet there's alot more pinch going on in Hangover than we know.

are they looking to pinch thru-hikers? i doubt it, they're too smart up there to believe that can really get much more from thru hikers, but they know they can capitalize on the fact that the trail goes right through their sleepy little town.......

[The Weasel]

If they want to 'pinch' the most money from hikers, they'll blaze the trail for thle side opposite the most hiker-useful stores. That way, hikers cross the street (which isn't really a big effort) to get to those stores, but still use the less-necessary ones on the "blazed" side.

This whole concept is giving me the giggles. I understand Jack's point about confusion if both sides are blazed. But it seems to me to sort of be urban planning gone to the extreme to be making a major effort in deciding which side of a small town main street to paint white marks on. But if it makes Hanover and a few hikers happy, wonderful.

TW

[Jester2000]

i don't get it. for decades the majority of folks attempting a thru-hike don't make it to hanover and the ones that do have no problem gettin' around and finding stuff. why the urgency all of a sudden?

With all of the recent threads about unneccessary rescues and abuse of Spot devices, I would think this would be obvious.

[The Weasel]

With all of the recent threads about unneccessary rescues and abuse of Spot devices, I would think this would be obvious.

Hanover is going to charge for rescuing hikers who get lost because they are on the wrong side of the street and got confused by multiple blazes? Wow. :eek:

TW

[Jester2000]

Hanover is going to charge for rescuing hikers who get lost because they are on the wrong side of the street and got confused by multiple blazes? Wow. :eek:

TW

My original reply to Wolf's comment was longer, but I moved it to the humor forum because it was too far off-topic to be in straight forward.

[vthiker]

help me with my memory jack,
isn't there an A.T. sidewalk plaque on the east side of the street, on the corner near the expensive hotel?
the street isn't that wide where if one were to walk on the east side,(todays A.T.) that they wouldn't be able to see those establishments on the west side, maybe even better. plus i think most if not all hikers spend a better part of a day, if not more, on both sides of the street.
i hope this has everything to do with making it better all around for everyone and not some kind of marketing tool.
again, just my opinion/suggestion, not at all looking for a debate.:sun
yup. the plaque is on the east side.
even so, I like Jack's idea of moving the trail to his specs. It does seem to make more sense for all the reasons he states.

[The Weasel]

My original reply to Wolf's comment was longer, but I moved it to the humor forum because it was too far off-topic to be in straight forward.

Your post in the humor forum wasn't the truth?

TW