View Full Version : Backpacks in tents
I bought a tent w/ good vestibule space and was planning on keeping my pack in that area, food hung in bear bag. I have read many times that hikers say they never keep their pack in their tent. Why would this be a prefrence over keeping your bag in your tent or vestibule?
Pedaling Fool
11-08-2009, 10:57
I always keep my pack in food in my tent; given enough rain it can get wet in the vestibule and bugs are an issue.
Nicksaari
11-08-2009, 11:05
bear and critters have a more acute sense of smell. the food smell and small particles of food are all over your food bag, whether its a dry bag, or a trash bag. this smell and particulates transfer to anything it touches, i.e. the inside/outside/cinch cord on your bag. anything.
depending on the area, and its critter activity, i would decide to sleep with my bag OR not on an individualistic basis.
remember that after you eat, its also a good idea to wash your hands and face clean after eating, as you dont not want a bear to come and take a bite out of your ramen smelling face.:banana
Pedaling Fool
11-08-2009, 11:06
I always keep my pack in food in my tent...
Correction: I always keep my pack and food in my tent
Wise Old Owl
11-08-2009, 11:11
well that is what I used to do. Stuff flopps out and gets all over the tent. Now I hang it below eye level from a branch next to the tent, and its far more manageable.
When I do carry a tent, especially without a vestibule, I virtually always bring my pack into my tent. Never had a problem. I don't see why it would be a problem. I almost always use my empty pack(meaning I carefully shake out my unloaded empty pack before bringing it into the tent) under my lower half for additional comfort and insulation from the ground. What I don't do is bring food or scented items that might attract animals, like bears, into my tent. I leave items like my food, cookware, sunscreen, insect repellant, tootpaste, etc. outside my tent, in a separate stuff sack bear bagged or bear canister, especially in known bear areas.
Aside from concerns about animals the only reason I can see for not bringing my empty pack into a tent is if it has gotten soaking wet or muddy.
Tipi Walter
11-08-2009, 11:22
My routine is to hang the two food bags up(and the dog's pack), put the empty pack in the tent vestibule, and not look at it again until the next morning. The only time I keep my food bags in the tent vestibule(and only in the vestibule)is during a sleet/rain storm. Otherwise they have to be hung due to rodent activity. Over the years I probably have had several hundred rodents(mice mostly, sometimes a raccoon or skunks) come into my unzipped tent looking for food, or waking me up by running across my face and neck. And of these hundreds(including up at the tipi)about 30 or them decided to chew holes in my food bags, whether hanging or not. The only reason I hang my food at all is 1, to keep the big mammals occupied elsewhere, and 2, to keep the clever mice away from my tent.
People who say they never get chew holes in their food bags or in their tents if that's where they keep their food, makes me wonder how often they camp or where they set up. Any established campsite(not AT shelter)will have mice, the only rodent free camping spots I've found have been ones never used before. And when the temps fall to zero or below the rodents don't seem to care or get out much.
I can certainly understand Nicksaari's arguement. He makes a very valid pt. If I was in grizzly country, then perhaps, no, I wouldn't bring my pack into the tent. Other animals, I'm not so concerned with.
If you look at known grizzly habitat in the lower 48 it isn't that large of an area.
Jack Tarlin
11-08-2009, 11:28
Your backpack is fine in your tent. In fact, it's safer there. I've heard of at least two folks who lost their packs entirely (i.e. they were dragged off God knows where) in the middle of the night: One had been tied loosely to a tree and one had been bear-bagged.
Tipi Walter, I'm with you. I seem to attract mice wherever I go in the Smoky's. Had holes chewed in packs and tents. Too expensive a lesson for me to continue storing stuff inside the tent. I hang everything save a headlamp and a water bottle.
As far as grizz country is concerned, and your right, the area is small in the lower 48, hang everything, and I mean everything. Maybe even yourself! In Montana where the bear population is strong it doesnt take but one newspaper clipping to convince most people to abide by ALL food storage precautions. You just can't appreciate the danger posed by an animal that is 10 feet long, 1200 lbs, and HUNGRY all the time until you see one up close and personal.
I wouldn't say I have never experienced chew holes in food bags or gear, but I don't often have this problem because of what Tipi Walter alluded to - I make a concerted effort not to camp in established or trashed campsites. Harder to do this on the AT, though. My biggest problems with animals, from the smallest mouse to the largest bear, from the east coast to the west coast, normally occur in areas where animals have become accustomed to the food and smells left behind or generated by humans.
I keep my unloaded pack inside my tent at all times when camping. Anything that is food-related—or smells like it might be—gets hung from a sturdy tree branch at least 10 ft. up and at least four feet out from the main tree trunk.
The pack would (barely) fit in my tent's vestibule but it's then susceptible to invasion by rodents, bugs, water/mud if raining, or theft by four-legged or two-legged creatures. The pack won't be excessively wet because I use a pack cover (which will likely go in the vestibule or be hung securely nearby).
Never had a problem keeping a pack inside my tent. In grizzly country out west I might reconsider and probably hang it even higher than in the east, but for most of the AT and other trails in the east I don't see the need to reconsider.
Tipi Walter
11-08-2009, 11:50
Your backpack is fine in your tent. In fact, it's safer there. I've heard of at least two folks who lost their packs entirely (i.e. they were dragged off God knows where) in the middle of the night: One had been tied loosely to a tree and one had been bear-bagged.
I saw a guy up around 5,240 feet last year in a blizzard with around 10F temps and he bailed from his hammock in the middle of the night for a buddy's tent and during it all he left his pack sitting outside by a tree. In the morning when they were gearing up his backpack looked like it got dipped in a frozen lake and left to harden. No zipper worked and the three straps were stuck fast. The problem was, he left his pack out a couple days before and it got soaked, and then the temps dipped and what was wet became concrete. Now add frozen fingers trying to zip up stuff and loosen straps . . .
I've never had an empty pack dragged off, then again, my packs are usually big butt models 8lbs empty. I did have a cur stray hunting dog jump up into a tree and pull down a dogpack and attempt to eat like a king before I got to him. One time I was packing up and had a nice new loaf of whole wheat bread in an unzipped pack pocket and I turned my back to roll up the tent when a stray dog reached in and pulled out the bread and ate it in about 10 seconds.
Dances with Mice
11-08-2009, 13:27
I use a 3/4 length sleeping pad and the unloaded backpack is the padding under my knees and feet. Works for me.
Feral Bill
11-08-2009, 13:47
As far as grizz country is concerned, and your right, the area is small in the lower 48, hang everything, and I mean everything. Maybe even yourself! In Montana where the bear population is strong it doesnt take but one newspaper clipping to convince most people to abide by ALL food storage precautions. You just can't appreciate the danger posed by an animal that is 10 feet long, 1200 lbs, and HUNGRY all the time until you see one up close and personal.
The area is small but contains some country you would not want to miss. Fortunately, lower 48 grizzlies are "only" 300-400 pounds, and not very aggressive outside Glacier NP. My food gets hung, pack's in the tent. I believe people who expect to have no food odors on them are dreaming.
FB
Tipi Walter
11-08-2009, 14:16
The area is small but contains some country you would not want to miss. Fortunately, lower 48 grizzlies are "only" 300-400 pounds, and not very aggressive outside Glacier NP. My food gets hung, pack's in the tent. I believe people who expect to have no food odors on them are dreaming.
FB
I agree. We are covered in smells and we can't exactly hang outselves from trees.:) What I wonder about is the stomach: it's a full food bag sitting right inside the tent all night long.
Cookerhiker
11-08-2009, 14:30
My tent is a Mountain Hardware PCT-2, officially a 2-person tent but not in reality. So I have plenty of room to keep the pack inside with only extra clothes in it. Like others have said, my food bag which I hang at least 100' away also includes cookware, toothbrush & paste, and anything remotely connected to food.
Slo-go'en
11-08-2009, 15:05
Put my stinky or wet pack inside my cramped tent? No thank you. Put it under the vestibule where rain can splash mud onto it or get it even wetter? Not a good idea either.
I hang my pack off a stubby tree branch next the the trunk with the pack cover on. It is a good idea to take your wallet into the tent, just in case something does walk off with the pack. Definately hang the food bag away from the tent. Better safe than sorry.
If you want to keep your pack in the tent - then keep your pack in the tent. I use an external frame pack and just put a pack cover on it at night - outside of tent. My Jam2 and my Catalyst were used as pillows when I carried them - under a tarp, in the shelter, or cowboy. Never had any problems.
If someone ever gets eaten by a lion, tiger or bear (Oh My) that was after their pack I will start hanging my pack with my food, but for now its not a concern.
With my one man tent there isn't room for the pack, even with the vestibule. So, it stays outside, under the pack cover.
Lone Wolf
11-08-2009, 17:32
I bought a tent w/ good vestibule space and was planning on keeping my pack in that area, food hung in bear bag. I have read many times that hikers say they never keep their pack in their tent. Why would this be a prefrence over keeping your bag in your tent or vestibule?
i always keep my pack and food in my tent
Pacific Tortuga
11-08-2009, 17:42
This could be cruel but his heart is now by-pass strong. Have a bear skin costume and attack Wolf's tent for his food, some night. :)
On the other hand, it may be a good way to get shot. :eek:
The Solemates
11-08-2009, 17:58
my pack, usually with food in it, is my pillow, inside my tent.
bulldog49
11-08-2009, 18:51
I always keep pack and food inside the tent. Solo tent, ample room.
One thing Tag-along and I appreciated about our Tarptent Rainshadow 2 was that we had plenty of room for us and our emptied packs/gear. All food related items usually got hung outside. This worked well for us all the way to Maine.
The Weasel
11-08-2009, 19:36
I can certainly understand Nicksaari's arguement. He makes a very valid pt. If I was in grizzly country, then perhaps, no, I wouldn't bring my pack into the tent. Other animals, I'm not so concerned with.
If you look at known grizzly habitat in the lower 48 it isn't that large of an area.
Black bears will totally trash a tent, pack, all your other gear and chase you out of your campsite, especially if the site is one that has been used in the past (much for LNT practices!). Racoons, 'possums, fox and skunks are nearly as intrusive, including when you are inside, and have claws that make tent fabric like tissue. They can be rabid. Mini-bears, also known as chipmunks, will do serious damage. (We won't discuss weasels and their propensity for taking things!) They are drawn not only to the food smells that will permeate your pack (they live off their sense of scent, and are far more sensitive than yours) but also dirty clothing, especially underwear and socks, particularly to satisfy salt cravings.
These are not the fevered imaginings of a cheechako; each has happened to me, and each has occured to me in AT areas as well as Michigan. It's not going to happen every time, it's not going to happen most times, but it's going to happen. Putting your pack in your vesibule will at least keep most animals a few feet from you if they get interested in your pack, and most of them, after ruining a few things and dragging a couple others off, will leave you alone.
Those who choose to disagree are invited to read my suggestions w for Backpackers (articles section) for making sure your homeowners/renters insurance provides coverage for such damage. I'm aware of one claim that exceeded $1,000 for tent, pack, clothing that was trashed by a black bear in northern Michigan.
TW
Ramble~On
11-08-2009, 19:42
:rolleyes: How many people lost their properly hung foodbags to the bear at Neel Gap this year ? How many people lost their properly hung foodbags to the bear at the campsite north of Mt. Madison ? Lots! I can name more than a few.
Hanging your food bag in a tree or better yet, several food bags in a tree is pretty much the same exact thing as "baiting" a bear.
I sleep with everything inside the tent with me. I've never had a problem with mice, skunks, porcupines or the bears that seem to be of such concern.
I can't say the same for a lot of people who left their gear or food outside.
I guess the question that's been asked is about keeping your pack in the tent though..and yeah, I always keep my pack in the tent.
Jack Tarlin
11-08-2009, 20:08
I was working at Neel Gap the week all this was going on, and yeah, it was basically a bear pinata party with food bags and backpacks.
I have very seldom heard of anyone in a tent on the A.T. being seriously bothered, harassed, or threatened by a bear, and I have NEVER heard of anyone who lost a backpack to a bear when the pack was in a vestibule or the tent itself.
Some nights I use my pack as a pillow. Sometimes it's under my knee so I can elevate my leg. But wherever, it's always still there in the morning.
Cookerhiker
11-08-2009, 20:29
On the first night of Northern Harrier's thru-hike in '04, we stayed at Stover Creek Shelter; like all Georgia shelters, it has cables which all of us used to string up our food bags. In the morning, some critter had gotten Harrier's food bag resulting in loss of some trail mix and a dinner or 2. None of the other 6 campers suffered this fate. We surmised it was a raccoon or mice.
Despite that inauspicious start, he went on to complete his thru-hike.
Lone Wolf
11-08-2009, 20:51
This could be cruel but his heart is now by-pass strong. Have a bear skin costume and attack Wolf's tent for his food, some night. :)
On the other hand, it may be a good way to get shot. :eek:
you're a wise man ;)
Lone Wolf
11-08-2009, 20:58
Black bears will totally trash a tent, pack, all your other gear and chase you out of your campsite, especially if the site is one that has been used in the past (much for LNT practices!).
Those who choose to disagree are invited to read my suggestions w for Backpackers
you've got like 600 AT miles? i've got 16,000 or so. you really do not know what you speak of
Jack Tarlin
11-08-2009, 21:03
With no disrespect to Weasel or anyone else, I've been around the A.T. awhile, too, and I've heard of exactly two people who had their tents "trashed" while they were inside them or were forced to flee a campsite in the middle of the night because of bear activity.
The Eastern Black Bear is usually very skittish around humans and will very seldom bother people camped in tents.
I'm not saying it doesn't ever happen. But it's not really something one has to worry about on the A.T.
Blissful
11-08-2009, 21:03
I have heard though from several hikers that got nice holes in their tents because of mice and other vermin who ate through looking for food. We had our food bag sitting in the vestibule right beside us in the WHites and a squirrel got it. PB hung it in the pouring rain.
Oh yeah, a tent we just got from a hiker off WB said a bear sliced through the netting on it.
One or two tales like that is enough for me to protect my investment (tent and food) and get out and spend a few stray minutes hanging my food bag.
Wise Old Owl
11-08-2009, 21:04
i always keep my pack and food in my tent
Very OLD SCHOOL.....
Lone Wolf
11-08-2009, 21:07
Very OLD SCHOOL.....
no chip, very intelligent
Blissful
11-08-2009, 21:10
Where's Chaco? Bears gravitate to his tent...
In SNP this summer I did the right thing and cooked 100 yards down wind from my campsite and stored my food and dishes there too, in a bear canister. I was woken up at 3am by a bear stomping around about 20 feet from my hammock. I had no food what so ever at my site. That was the first time I didn't sleep with my pack and food. Sometimes bears and other critters just happen upon your site and investigate.
This past week, I took all the necessary precautions, climbed into my bag in my hammock, I felt a lump in my pocket and pulled out my bag of sunflower seeds. Nice, salted seeds......now all over the inside of my hammock. I truely felt like a stuffing mix in the hammock in bear country. I survived.
Lone Wolf
11-08-2009, 21:22
This past week, I took all the necessary precautions, I truely felt like a stuffing mix in the hammock in bear country. I survived.
paranoia. hype. marketing....
SouthMark
11-08-2009, 21:24
i always keep my pack and food in my tent
Ditto!!!!!
ShelterLeopard
11-08-2009, 21:29
I bought a tent w/ good vestibule space and was planning on keeping my pack in that area, food hung in bear bag. I have read many times that hikers say they never keep their pack in their tent. Why would this be a prefrence over keeping your bag in your tent or vestibule?
I usually just leave my pack outside- I carry two pack covers, one really light and magnificently water proof, and one Outdoor Research one that is heavier, and very waterproof. I put the light one on the back of my pack and lean it against a tree, and the heavier more waterproof one on the front of my pack, overlapping the one on the back. Keeps it very waterproof.
I don't think it's a terrible idea to keep the pack in your tent on a rainy day, but I had the fun experience of actually having a bear IN my tent in Canada on a kayaking trip. Absolutely no food in the tent. Turned out he was after film from the camera (before I switched to digital). Didn't even have any toothpaste or soap in the tent and he still came in. So I'm slightly wary of keeping anything that might smell at all attractive in my tent. You never know. If you're in bear country, be careful.
ShelterLeopard
11-08-2009, 21:30
But on the AT, I'm definitely less careful than on Canadian Islands.
I don't know how to post a new thread, but I am looking for a partner to hike the AT with this April/May 2010
if anyone is interested or knows a website where people can find partners, my email is
[email protected]
Thanks
ShelterLeopard
11-08-2009, 21:32
Hey smankin- post that as a separate thread, and you'll get a lot more responses. Post it under the category "hooking up" or "thru hiker specific".
Cookerhiker
11-08-2009, 21:38
I don't know how to post a new thread, but I am looking for a partner to hike the AT with this April/May 2010
if anyone is interested or knows a website where people can find partners, my email is
[email protected]
Thanks
No need to go to another website; WB has everything you need.
Go to this thread: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=73 and click on "New Thread." Punch in a title ("Hiking Partner wanted April/May 2010"), type in a few wrods, click "Submit" and you're done.
You can also get there by clicking "Forum" from the top menu and scrolling down to the "Hooking Up" topic.
ShelterLeopard
11-08-2009, 21:44
Ditto to cookerhiker's post, and I sent you a private message about what you may want to know. Basically the same thing cooker just posted.
I always keep my pack in my tent. Generally, when I set up camp, everything in my pack is in use. If I have a couple of unused clothing items, I toss 'em in the pack and use it as a pillow. My smellables get hung... but not always. It depends where I am. In SNP, I never sleep with my food. On the AT, I've always tried to stay away from shelter sites where the critters have become accustomed to finding food. That being said, I spent a week on the trail doing a bit of a yo-yo in SNP last month. Spent all but one night sleeping in the shelters, something I rarely do. Hung my pack up on the shelter pegs every night, put my food on the bear poles and never had a single critter problem... though I think there was a good deal of luck in play. At Black Rocks Hut several folks had their food bags chewed while hanging on the poles. My food bag was up there, too. But, all was well with my stuff. At Pinefield Hut one night, another hiker woke up to a mouse in his pack which was hanging on a peg. My pack was right next to his, and no problem. I'm sure sometimes it's just hit or miss.
Jack Tarlin
11-08-2009, 22:48
I remember one year at Blue Mt. Shelter really early in the trip there was this consumate pain in the ass that set up her camp very close to mine, and then loudly berated me while I was cooking dinner in front of my tent.
It was years ago, but I can still quote her:
"Your food odors are permeating my tentsite and violating my personal space. You obviously haven't backpacked much or you wouldn't do this sort of thing!"
I asked her "You carrying a tent, right?"
"Of course!" she said. "It's right there!!"
"You carrying a food bag in your pack?"
"Of course!" she said.
"And a sleeping bag? And extra clothes?"
"Of course!" she said. "What's your point?"
"My point, madam, is that you've been hiking for five days. By now, you, your tent, your pack, your sleeping bag, your extra clothing, in fact everything you're packing is completely permeated with food odors. And any bear withing half a mile can smell it. If he wants you, you're toast. Has this never occurred to you?"
She thought about this for a minute and then AGAIN demanded that I stop cooking food so close to her camp becuase of the imminent threat from killer bears.
As my dinner was done by then, I shut off my stove and wished her a good evening.
She was gone within a week of course.
Something must have got into her personal space. :D
Pacific Tortuga
11-08-2009, 22:57
Did she snore too ? :)
The Weasel
11-08-2009, 23:05
you've got like 600 AT miles? i've got 16,000 or so. you really do not know what you speak of
Well gosh. I don't brag as much as LW, I guess, and he's probably right about anything he wants to brag about. But I've been hiking, fairly constantly, for something a bit north of 50 years. But I never got the odometer implant, so I can't tell all you folks about how many miles I've walked. I know they're more than some and fewer than others.
But from having done some serious hiking in, lessee, a dozen and a half "or so" states, including most of the AT states, and all of the ones I've hiked in have fairly large black bear populations. I've had about 5 camp trashings from black bears (out of a few dozen sightings), one of which was a little intimidating because it was a sow with a cub apparently nearby, which is a bit risky. I'm aware of a number of other confrontations, including black bear in the San Gorgonio
Wilderness out here, but most were Michigan bears in northern Michigan and the UP. I'm also minded of the death who was killed only a few years ago in GSMNP; while that wasn't precisely on the AT, it reminds people (or should) that 600 lbs of ursine hunger and curiosity is best avoided.
As for "skittishness" of the "Eastern Black Bear," there really isn't any different subspecies of Ursus Americanus whether she's in California or Virginia. They're different from grizzlies (who are really serious bad actors to the point that backpackers in some parks have to essentially sleep in cages). It's because of Black Bears that hikers in much of California are required to carry bear vaults. And I didn't understand the OP to only be asking about these apparently tame bears along the AT, but to be inquiring about a general practice. When I've hiked the Porkies in Michigan, just like around here, and, yes, along the AT, I don't have my pack inside my tent.
Others can differ. But it's sort of one of those things where it's not that much of an imposition to do the 'safe thing' every time, since you really only need to have one instance of an attack to kind of ruin a trip or more.
TW
I'm totally with everyone who says your stuff smells like food anyway. How can you help it unless you've got a Sherpa carrying all your stuff who keeps all your gear at a separate campsite and you pass through some sort of haz-mat shower after every meal and every contact with your gear.
Eh. There are no guarantees. I've seen hung food get trashed. I've seen tents chewed. You assess your surroundings and hopefully make a good call. For me, I keep my pack in my tent because there's room for it, it serves as my pillow, and it's out of the elements. My food bag may or may not be in the tent with me depending on the situation.
I'm remembering a notice I saw posted at Yellowstone last year. It was a warning about several incidents where juvenile bears had jumped on tents just for the fun of it. Apparently, they liked flopping on the things. It was fun. Had nothing to do with food. Imagine having that happen to ya!
The Weasel
11-08-2009, 23:14
Lellers,
Biggest problem isn't bears, although when they ARE a problem it's a big one. Worse are smaller mammals who will scratch through a tent wall in a second to get at a pack, and it's hardly any fun trying to get a feisty coon out of a tent once he's in it. (Or skunk, 'possum, etc.) I've had mice gnaw into a tent, climb into my pack, spend the night and be there in the morning, with holes in my pack and clothes. It's another good reason never to tent/hammock close to a shelter, since small varmints tend to frequent them.
TW
Jack Tarlin
11-08-2009, 23:18
Actually, when it comes to Black bears, there is indeed a difference.
The fatality that Weasel alluded to in the Smokies several years back was noteworthy primarily for its rarity. At the time it took place, the acting Park Superintendent, Philip Francis, said it was the first time he'd ever heard of such a thing happening in the East, and this incident was only the 2nd recorded fataility in a National Park.
And keep in mind that the possibilities for bear/human interaction are fairly high, as there are lots of bears in the Park and a very high number of humans; in fact, it's the most visited National Park in the country.
Yet even with all these people and all these bears in the same space, attacks simply never happen.
I am NOT saying people should be reckless or foolish in bear country. But at the same time, don't obsess over bears, either. You have a much greater chance of being struck by lightning or being killed by a poisonous snake in the East than you do of getting seriously injured or killed by a bear.
Oh, and speaking of the difference between Eastern animals and western ones, the rattlesnakes aren't that different either.
And like the bears, except for this one incident years ago, nobody's ever died of snakbite in the Smokies, either. :-?
RichardD
11-08-2009, 23:43
Perhaps I am overcautious but I keep my ziplocked food in an OP sack in turn in a Silnylon sack which I hang high or I use a bear cannister if I am hiking in the Sierras. My pack goes under my hammock or in my tent with me. So far nothing has been chewed but I am careful to hang all food toothpaste etc. There have been occasions when I have kept the food in my tent, continous heavy rain or when camping above treeline in Colorado and nothing untoward happened on these rare occasions.
The one time we were bothered by a bear in camp was in SNP. Our food was hung high on the bear poles a long way from our hammocks. A bear circled our hammocks for most of the night. I chased him (or her) off three times but he kept returning. Eventually I inserted earplugs and went to sleep. The next morning I read in the shelter log that this was a recurring event.
Lots of anecdotal evidence here says do as you want and you will likely be just fine. I believe in taking the simple precautions to minimise risk. The risk, although slight, is never eliminated.
critter pack invasions when left outside my tent = several
critter pack invasions when left inside my tent = none
'nuff said
The Weasel
11-09-2009, 01:20
Oh, and speaking of the difference between Eastern animals and western ones, the rattlesnakes aren't that different either.
And like the bears, except for this one incident years ago, nobody's ever died of snakbite in the Smokies, either. :-?
Big difference, Jack. Timber and Missasauga Rattlers are way nicer and smaller than Diamondback and Sidewinders. Some of the western varieties - but not the eastern - have venom that is neurotoxic, not merely hemotoxic. The morbitity of the former (which can shut down the nervous systems) is far greater than that of eastern and northern subspecies. There are about 5-6 rattler deaths per year, about 10 times that of bear-caused deaths. All are rare, of course. But the number of confrontations is far greater.
As for bear attacks, as I said, the OP was not merely referring to the AT. I recalled (and have verified on Wikipedia) a death in Michigan in the mid '70s. Confrontations are not uncommon. While you're right that no one should obsess on them, prudence is wiser than indifference. And, as I keep noting, the rationale for packs in vestibules or otherwise outside the sleeping tent is far stronger for avoidance of small mammals such as racoons, skunks, 'possums, fox and, of course, mice.
TW
Ramble~On
11-09-2009, 02:13
I can't tell you the number of times that I have had things left in the vestibule overnight chewed by mice. I can't tell you the number of times people have told me about critters chewing holes in the gear that they left outside their tents overnight. I have never had a critter enter my tent and bother me or any of my gear..in any way.
I had a mouse or squirrel or whatever it was gnaw a hole in a food bag once. The bag was hung 10 or more feet from the trunk and 15 or more feet high. All of the contents of that food bag had been chewed on.
On my thru hike this year, I cooked in or next to my tent almost every night. My food, garbage, cookpot, pack and all of my stuff was kept inside my tent with me. Once in a while my boots got to spend the night out in the vestibule and in the morning, I'd often find little gifts left in them by the mice. Nothing ever bothered me or any of my gear inside my tent. I live very close to the GSMNP and a large population of black bear.
I hike and camp pretty regularly and again...I sleep with my stuff inside my tent. I've never had a problem. Sure, I've had critters including bears come close to the tent at night. They never tried to invite themselves inside for dinner. There are places where bear bagging, using cables or bear boxes/cannisters is required and when I'm in those places...I follow the rules.
I know of many people who have had equipment damaged by animals overnight and food carried off or ransacked.
If you are comfortable with hanging your food in a tree, leaving gear in your vestibule or whatever...more power to you!
There are many people who always leave their packs in their vestibule and have never had a problem. Don't let anybody tell you that if you keep your food or gear inside your tent....you'll have encounters with animals that you don't want. It's not true.
If you want to worry about stuff getting at your gear....fear slugs :eek: They're everywhere!
earlyriser26
11-09-2009, 06:16
I always keep my pack and food inside my tent. I only have had problems the few times I have hung my pack outside as a party favor for animals.
Pedaling Fool
11-09-2009, 09:49
...Once in a while my boots got to spend the night out in the vestibule and in the morning, I'd often find little gifts left in them by the mice...
I got lazy and left my boots in the vestibule one night and woke to chewed up laces.
Kerosene
11-09-2009, 10:04
I use a 3/4 length sleeping pad and the unloaded backpack is the padding under my knees and feet. Works for me.Same here, with a plastic trash bag covering the Granite Gear backpack to keep it from getting my sleeping bag damp. Works well down to the low 20's.
Doooglas
11-09-2009, 12:10
I'm glad we don't have bears to worry about.
Only Jaguars.:eek: My buddy lost 4 dogs sat night.
That jag shredded 4 bulldogs in less than 15 seconds.
I mean shredded as in heads and limbs flung away.
I hang my pack at about 12 or 15 feet, when possible.Not really for Jags but the other 197 mammals we have to deal with.:rolleyes:
Fortunately Jags wont let themselves be seen or even come near a stinking human:D The smell is way off for them, and not related to food like up there.
In 23 years of this I've never seen more than tracks. Panthers and Oscelots, yes.
A Jaguar never.
The bear comes to YOUR scent first. Then the food. Not the other way around.
It can smell human at 5 miles and then food as it gets closer.
It knows that your packing food !
Tipi Walter
11-09-2009, 12:17
Hey Doooglas, ever been to Boquete, Panama right across the border?? I used to do some backpacking in the jungles of Panama but I never saw a big cat, just black palm needle trees and leeches and bushmasters. Makes camping and backpacking in the mountains of NC and TN seem like a walk in the park.
Yup, keep mine with me, nice to lean up against, all food, cooking stuff, toothpaste, etc outside. Like having access to everything at night in my tent.
HooKooDooKu
11-10-2009, 15:16
...I'm also minded of the death who was killed only a few years ago in GSMNP; while that wasn't precisely on the AT, it reminds people (or should) that 600 lbs of ursine hunger and curiosity is best avoided....
The bear that killed a woman in GSMNP was a typical 100-120lbs bear. The only bears that even get above 400lbs are the "trash" bears that live on the edge of the park and live off the "trash" of the city.
...Oh, and speaking of the difference between Eastern animals and western ones, the rattlesnakes aren't that different either.
And like the bears, except for this one incident years ago, nobody's ever died of snakbite in the Smokies, either. :-?
Unless that death was within the last several years, the last I ever read (from official GSMNP sources) was that there had never been a single recorded instance of death from snake bit within GSMNP.
The Weasel
11-10-2009, 15:47
Male bears (genetically, they are usually about double the weight of sows) regularly reach 400 lbs here in California and also in northern Michigan, which is biologically very similar to much of the AT.
As for rattlers, I've had 2 drystrikes (gladly) from Missisaugas in Michigan, which are smallish rattlers. I wouldn't have died if they were wet hits, but I would have hurt like hell and had some serious infection risks. Out here in CA, rattlers are far more dangerous with different venom.
TW
Male bears (genetically, they are usually about double the weight of sows) regularly reach 400 lbs here in California and also in northern Michigan, which is biologically very similar to much of the AT. ..... TW
Wait a minute! Perhaps, black bears are biologically similar on the east coast as elsewhere in the country, BUT if you are inferriing that Black bears regularly or commonly reach 400 lbs on the east coast along most of the AT corridor, I don't think that is entirely accurate. Not that you can't encounter a 400 lb Black bear on the east coast, especially after they have fattened up by the Fall, but a 400 lb Black bear is a rather large less common, probably male, Black bear for most of the eastern U.S. It's not as common to regularly see 400 lb Black Bears in the eastern states as you are implying.
Pedaling Fool
11-10-2009, 17:40
Trash bears are usually underweight.
Bears on the East Coast do reach 400 lbs. under natural conditions, but the average weight of a given bear population is more a factor of latitude, not longitude. You'll never see a 400-lb bear in southern Florida, but the likelihood and numbers of seeing a 400-lb, and greater, black bear increases the further north you look. There are other factors, like food source, etc… but any 400-lb black bear digging through trash is just snacking, not gaining weight.
However, I don't think anyone really has a good idea of how many 400-lb'ers are on the East Coast. I don't even put much confidence in an average weight; I don't think there's been enough research to accurately determine. http://www.americanbear.org/Size.htm
http://www.bear.org/website/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=168:quick-black-bear-facts&catid=15&Itemid=38
.
Jack Tarlin
11-10-2009, 17:51
The heaviest black bear recorded (depending on which source you trust) weighed either 880 or 902 pounds.
Happily, this is kind of freaky, and in any case, took place a long time ago, and not in the Eastern United States either.
Anything above 350 pounds in the East is a big bear.
Pedaling Fool
11-10-2009, 17:59
What is the record weight of an American black bear?
The world record weight for an American black bear is 880 pounds. This was the recorded weight of a 10.75 year-old male bear shot in North Carolina in November 1998.
A black bear was hit and killed by a car near Winnipeg Canada, in 2001. The official recorded weight was 856.5 pounds, but it is estimated that the live weight of this large male was more than 886 pounds. The driver was not injured and there appeared to be little damage to the Mazda.
An 805-pound male American black bear was shot in Manitoba Canada, and in Pennsylvania males fairly consistently reach the record weight of 800+ pounds.
http://www.americanbear.org/Size.htm
bronconite
11-10-2009, 19:45
There are some big bears taken in Pennsylvania every year.
If we follow the state average, about 30 hunters will take a bear that weighs 500 pounds or more.”
Since 1992, six bears with an estimated live weight of 800 pounds or more have been taken in Pennsylvania. The possibility of another 800-pounder being taken by a hunter is always in play when Pennsylvania’s bear season opens.
In 2005, Andrew Seaman Jr. of Dunbar took a 733-pound black bear that had a skull measurement of 23and 3/16th inches that the Boone and Crockett Club now recognizes as tied for the world-record black bear killed legally by a hunter. The Fayette County bear is tied with a bear taken in California.
source: http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?Q=175437&A=11
Pedaling Fool
11-11-2009, 09:40
There are some big bears taken in Pennsylvania every year.
source: http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?Q=175437&A=11
That's basically what my link in the above post claims:
"Pennsylvania males fairly consistently reach the record weight of 800+ pounds."
What are you'll feeding them bears in Pennsylvania:D
The Weasel
11-11-2009, 11:25
400 pound bears. 700 pound bears. "Fairly consistently...800 pounds." Bears with skulls 1/4" short of two feet?
Me, I put my pack outside my tent.
TW
Wow, you guys are tough. Got to be careful what I say and how I say it!
I didn't know there were so many Black bear Biologists on WB.
Black bears do get to be 400 lbs + on the eastcoast(never said they don't), but they aren't all that commonly encountered in the southeast, virginia highlands, and mid atlantic regions on the AT. And like JT said, a Black bear above 350 lbs. is a large Black bear for much of the eastcoast. I believe it is like John Gault described, the avg, wt. of a given Black bear population is probably related to latitude.
Let's get back to the original post! IMO, the AT is not teeming with agressive 400 lb + Black bears that want to trash my tent with me in it if I also have a backpack in it like some would have us be afraid of!
XCskiNYC
11-11-2009, 15:58
Pack inside tent. Used as a pillow. Everything crunchy/breakable/hard removed from center compartment. Everything compressible moved into the center compartment. My little Slumberjack camp pillow goes on top, right under my head. This array puts my head way more upright than would be the case sleeping at home, but I like being at this angle for good visibility. That way a bear can't sneak up on me.:cool:
Food hangs from somewhere in a plastic bag, if I remember. Otherwise it's in my sleeping bag compartment. Hanging a bear bag makes you look outdoorsey, like the scoutmaster I saw recently at Mt. Algo shelter. I was like, "What's this guy doing trying to throw a cord over a tree branch?"
Pack inside my tent at my feet to prevent me from kicking the tent's condensation.
Food Bag... I've got the best of both worlds:
I hang my food bag... Inside my tent... I use a Six Moon Designs Lunar Solo and it uses a Hiking Pole for it's main-pole... I hook my foodbag to it so little bears (mice) can't get to it.
I figure I fart every few minutes. Enough to keep the bigger animals away.
Boots stay inside after a porcupine ate a hole in one of them.
Ramble~On
11-11-2009, 19:26
:-? Okay...so you are concerned about bears..regardless of size...and keeping your backpack a few feet away from you while you sleep is going to prevent what exactly?
In the unlikely event that a hungry or curoius bear enters your campsite and causes property damage to your backpack..what's stopping it from making the thin little layer of nylon between you and it...no longer a barrier.
The most dangerous animal in the forest is a hiker defending it's foodbag and equipment.
If a bear is able to score some food or other satisfaction (:D) from visiting a campsite...it will view campsites as a source of food and or satisfaction in the future. Thus a "problem bear" is born.
To protect myself, my property and the animals...I do not leave anything outside at night that they may access. I do use cables, boxes, poles etc when and where it is required. If an animal is going to infiltrate my perimeter in effort to obtain food and/or (:D) satisfaction...I am going to make the encounter as unpleasant as possible for said animal..an if needed will inflict upon said animal as much physical, mental and spiritual displeasure through extreme violent actions that said animal will view future campsite infiltrations as a very bad idea.
It is my opinion that the chances of having an animal encounter or loss/damage to equipment is lessened by keeping my crap inside my tent.
Is my way the "right" way ? Dunno...but it works for me and I'm not gonna tell you what you should do with your crap at night...I'm just sharing what I do and how I feel about it...I sleep well at night...