View Full Version : Ice Axe or not
This is a question for those who have completed the PCT .
Did you bring/use an ice axe for the Sierra portion of the hike.
If you did not bring an axe, what snow gear did you use.
Thanks
Thorny
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RedneckRye
11-12-2009, 09:21
On the PCT you don't need an ice axe at all until that brief moment when you really need an ice axe.
I carried a Black Diamond Raven Pro in '06, which was a relatively big snow year. Luckily I never has to use it for a self arrest, but it did help with stability and confidence on some of the steep sections.
Make sure you know how to use the axe for a self arrest otherwise it is just a sharp pointy thing that you can impale yourself with as you slide down a snow field.
An axe also looks really good in photos and makes a great cathole digger.
The Solemates
11-12-2009, 10:20
An axe also looks really good in photos and makes a great cathole digger.
thats why i carry one :rolleyes::D
garlic08
11-12-2009, 10:30
Ditto the above, especially the cathole part.
I did fine without one, but my wife really needed one because she wasn't as comfortable on the steeper snowfields. I borrowed it a few times, but not on the snow.
Spirit Walker
11-12-2009, 13:13
We carried ice axes and I'm glad we did. Didn't need to self arrest, though several who were hiking at the same time did fall and use their axes, but by digging the point into the snow, the axe kept me from falling several times.
It depends on how much snow is on the ground -- high snow year or low, are you early (before June 15) or late (after July 1). In a very high snow year you may need it well before the Sierras and well after. We had a friend who carried his on the entire hike. Said he felt odd carrying it out of Campo, but was glad he had it on Fuller Ridge.
TwoForty
11-12-2009, 22:01
In a normal to heavy snow year with an early start, I would. Kenency Meadows to the next stop after Sonora Pass.
SunnyWalker
11-12-2009, 23:11
If you cross any glaciers, I think it would be safer to have it with you.
I don't have any idea how you can expect a reasonable answer without stating the month you intend to make the hike thru the Sierras
I don't have any idea how you can expect a reasonable answer without stating the month you intend to make the hike thru the Sierras
Before the Sierras one may need one on Fuller Ridge and the San Gabriels.
Don't bring an ice axe unless you know how to use one and plan to hike holding it in your hand.
If you don't use one, use your trekking poles for balance and don't walk on ice without traction aids.
I didn't carry an ice axe.
"I don't have any idea how you can expect a reasonable answer without stating the month you intend to make the hike thru the Sierras"
I intend on begining my hike about a week before the kick off, then hitching back for the event.
I'd like to be a bit ahead of the heard. I don't like crowds
I intend on begining my hike about a week before the kick off, then hitching back for the event.
I'd like to be a bit ahead of the heard. I don't like crowds
First, starting a week ahead of the KO will not spare you crowds unless you move quickly. I started a week before the KO and most of the herd had caught me by Agua Dulce or Kennedy Meadows.
Second, the crowding issue on the PCT is vastly exaggerated. Yes, there were 50 hikers at the Saufleys (Agua Dulce trail angels) on my second night there. But I rarely saw more than a handful of hikers on the trail on any given day. It's a long trail, and most all of the hikers are moving at about the same speed. So, even if there are 50 hikers within 10 miles north or south of you on the trail, you're all moving about the same speed, and you don't see that many people on the trail.
Third, once you get to Tuolumne or Tahoe, the herd has thinned out considerably. I had two separate 100-miles stretches in northern CA and OR where I saw ZERO thru hikers. Enjoy the company of other hikers while you can. You may miss it later on.
frisbeefreek
11-13-2009, 11:06
Ditto sbhikes...unless you've received training and practiced, don't even bother bringing an axe.
Your needs will be dictated by the coming winter snow levels. This year, most hikers didn't carry an axe or crampons (including me - I had poles and sneakers).
Fuller Ridge scares people, but frankly, it's maybe a couple of hundred yards (yes, it has fatal fall potential). Early season snow reports will tell you whether to bring snow protection or not (or simply elect to walk around it, as some did, and avoid the miserably painful 7,000' descent to I-10).
If I did it again with similar snow levels, I would definitely carry some Yaktrax "crampons" as insurance, in case I hit a particularly icy section on one of the high passes (early morning, for instance) and didn't want to wait for it to soften.
I brought an Axe and maybe it helped with confidence. I used it once to cut steps. I also brought Kahtoola micro-spikes, which are like real low profile crampons. I definitely could have gone without them, but was glad that I had them as I was able to keep a pretty good pace on HARD snow. You can go without these things, but they just might help you feel better prepared for the unexpected. And yeah, you could definitely impale yourself with the axe. Practice that a few times.
Jester2000
11-13-2009, 12:34
On the PCT you don't need an ice axe at all until that brief moment when you really need an ice axe.
I carried a Black Diamond Raven Pro in '06, which was a relatively big snow year. Luckily I never has to use it for a self arrest, but it did help with stability and confidence on some of the steep sections.
Make sure you know how to use the axe for a self arrest otherwise it is just a sharp pointy thing that you can impale yourself with as you slide down a snow field.
An axe also looks really good in photos and makes a great cathole digger.
This is pretty much what I tell people -- you probably don't need an ice axe right up until the moment that you really need an ice axe.
I carried one. Practiced self-arresting before the hike. Really needed it once, at Mather Pass.
puddingboy
11-13-2009, 17:43
before i climbed mt st helens everyone told us we needed ice axes, we didnt bring any. they would have helped my grandpa but they werent needed. i dont know about the sierras buy i would say no.
Yep, I carried a Camp Corsa ice axe in the Sierras (08).
On the PCT you don't need an ice axe at all until that brief moment when you really need an ice axe.
Well said RedNeckRye.
Does everyone who thru-hikes the PCT need an ice axe? NO! Can you thru-hike the PCT without an ice axe? YES! People do it quite often.
Thorny, perhaps a better question to be asking yourself is, "do I need to have an ice axe?"
And, that depends on how comfortable you feel hiking on snow/ice over possibly steep snowy passes in the Sierras and sometimes further south along ridgetops at Mt San Jacinto and Baden Powell, the snowfall, which changes from yr to yr. and how fast it's melting, and when you arrive at areas where an ice axe may be most helpful.
I know a lot of PCTers belabor whether or not to carry an ice axe. I was one of them. Here's some sensible advice. Get an ice axe. I like the $85- 110 Camp Corsa at around 7 oz. It's probably the most common ice axe you'll notice hikers toting on the PCT. I would not use this ice axe for tehcnical climbing or mountaineering(you will not have to do either on the PCT, you don't cross any glaciers on the PCT either). I use the Corsa almost entirely for self arrest. Keep abreast of current PCT snowfall levels at www.postholer (http://www.postholer/) Have the Corsa waiting in the wings to be priority mailed out if you think you are going to need it or ship it out to where you first might need it which is usually Mt San Jacinto/Fuller Ridge or Baden Powell. Many PCTers, that feel they are most comfortable needing an ice axe, first get one by having it shipped to Kennedy Meadows which is non- technically the beginning of the Sierras.
Personally, in 08, going NOBO with a start date like your own, getting to Kennedy Meadows on June 2, I didn't carry an ice axe. Could definitely have used one about 3 times total - Baden Powell(3 ft deep icy snow cups on steep icy terrain, a fall/long slide was definitely possible) and twice while hiking over steep snow/ice covered passses in the Sierras. At one of those passes in the Sierras I felt I had to alter my route to avoid the too hazardous extremely steep icy snow covered trail since I didn' have an ice axe to safely navigate. I also feel comfortable and consider myself somewhat experienced hiking on steep snow covered mountains.
I also had Kahtoola Micro Spikes(crampons, a little like Yak Trax) waiting to be shipped out to me if I thought I needed them. No need, FOR ME. In 08 I don't recall any other PCTers using crampons either.
The primary reason you will be toting an ice axe on the PCT is self arrest. As others have noted, make sure you know how to self arrest, if you carry an ice axe. If you don't know this technique it defeats the purpose of carrying one! The organizers of the PCT kick off usually have a short demonstration on how to properly self arrest.
you don't cross any glaciers on the PCT either.
Ahem, Packwood Glacier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packwood_Glacier).
Forgot about that SLY. Thanks for keeping me on my toes. $#@^.
Largely forgot about it because it just resembled another Sierra snowfield not requiring much more than 150 yds of snow travel. Besides, by the time Thorny hits the Packwood Glacier it may only be a menmory due to global warming!
Sly, have you ever taken the short alternate ridge route about 200 ft above instead of crossing the Packwood on the lower route?
Sly, have you ever taken the short alternate ridge route about 200 ft above instead of crossing the Packwood on the lower route?
No, unlike my avatar, I was there in near whiteout conditions. At first, I started climbing Old Snowy before I realized I shouldn't be gaining altitude. Doubled back and crossed the glacier. I had no idea of how far the fall would be.
The trail is 15 feet above Packwood Glacier. You'll wish you were on the glacier instead of the trail. The trail is a death wish. You can avoid it taking the older high trail, which is much more exciting in my opinion, especially if you're lucky enough to have clear skies when you get there. It was the highlight of the whole trail for me.
frisbeefreek
11-15-2009, 10:43
I got to Old Snowy in a fogout also (crossed the Knife Ridge in 35degree 70mph winds and driving rain - what fun). The trail above Packwood is awful when wet. Loose scree with obvious slides that will drop you a long way. The PCTA/NFS really need to rethinking this 1/4 mile section, which is possibly the worst on the entire trail (impassible with stock imho).
The trail was so bad, when I got to the fork that takes you up Old Snowy, I couldn't believe I was still on the trail. I breathed a sigh of relief when I got to the ridge.
As several have stated that section on Mt Snowy in the Goat Rocks Wilderness by Packwood Glacier should be negotiated with extra care. It's an eroded, constanty eroding, and hard part of the PCT to maintain as it's currently routed. Cold windy foggy weather combined with short steep stretches of snow/ice travel combined with some steep narrow eroded trail is a definite possibilty and demand extra care. Along with the breathtaking scenery(Mt St Helens, Mt Rainier, Mt Adams, lots of other peaks, mountain goats, several waterfalls) in some ways that's what makes it such an adventure getting up to the Packwood Glacier(which isn't all that vast by the time most NOBOs reach there) and hiking down to Stevens Pass. IMO, a very memorable and scenic section of the entire PCT!
It was a bit foggy and cold when I awoke after having slept on Mt Snowy in the old crumbled stone shelter. I had intended to take the old uppermost ridge route but by the time I realized I had missed the turnoff I just continued across the ICY Packwood Glacier. Could have waited until the ice/snow softened up a bit more! Really wanted to take that higher route though!
Wheeler,
I like those Kahtoola micro-spikes.
Real crampons are risk of injury during ice-axe self arrest.
Here are two helpful videos, from The Mountaineering Council of Scotland.
Ice axe self arrest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyRF6AjAI94)
The techniques may be reasonably safely practiced on a snow slope with no rocks and a good long runout, such as that at a ski resort (if the ski resort will allow a practice session).
Crevasse Rescue (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaweXnjx1CY&feature=related)
Maybe this video is convincing enough to know to stay entirely away from crevasses?
Mountaineering is not for "jerks" or "tyros".
Look, they are roped up. The rescuer has the right equipment and is well-practiced in the technique.
In an authentic rescue, the rescuer would work more quickly because it is so cold in a crevasse even a conscious person in there can quickly lose use of their "motor muscles" to assist getting up and over the edge.
That "victim" was dressed warmer than he would be for the exertion involved in climbing, or, he dresses warmer and proceeds slow enough to avoid getting the insulating layers wet from sweating.
There is another reason an ice axe is a good thing: it is used as a probe before taking the next step. If the hole is "ice blue" with light and not dark, it is very likely a snowed-over crevasse. Slowly back away.
By the way, the crevasse at the top near the rock face is called a bergschrund. It is not a joke to be jumped. The snow that falls onto the top portion of it may make it appear to be "no big deal." The bergschrund can be the deepest crevasse, like wikipedia says, 100 meters deep sloping away down along the mountain rock and, in all practicality, can be impossible to do a rescue.
There is a reason mountainclimbers are called mountaineers. We are equipped, we know what we are doing, we know we can trust the others with us to rescue us and they know they can trust us to rescue them before we are out on the real deal.
Hike, but don't do the real mountaineering stuff unless you learn how and are properly equipped with knowledge, equipment, and companions that are as good, or better, than you.
This is the best assurance of getting to be there with the mountain, and not become a casualty.
Having a Guide, or Guiding, is no guarantee.
Clients have perished. Clients have been known to cause the death of the Guide.
I am leaning towards bringing an ice axe, It will do double duty as a cat hole digger.
I plan on getting some instruction in self arrest and I will practice in the mountains near my house if we get some snow this year (near Front Royal, Va.) I sure I will feel more confident carrying an axe than not.
Thanks for all your input
Thorny
Are there any simple alternatives that anyone might recommend that have less potential for self-injury than an ice axe? Like carrying a couple screwdrivers in your pockets or something? :)
Also, how well do microspikes work in the Sierra... say mid- to late-June?
I carried a Camp Corsa in 2008 with a June 5th entry into the Sierras. Never really felt I needed it. I know how to self-arrest with an ice-axe and always took it off my pack but it still felt superfluous 100% of the time. You can be much safer without an ice axe but WITH timing your ascents/descents of the high passes. With good timing (late/mid-morning ascents, noonish descents, in average weather) the snow will be soft and an ice axe will be pointless. I didn't carry crampons or any of the ultralight equivalents and didn't miss them, either. full crampons are definitely dead weight unless you like hiking up the top of the passes at 5am, and even then they don't work great with running shoes / light trail shoes.
In 2009 I didn't carry an ice axe with a June 2nd entry into the Sierra and was absolutely comfortable. We had bad weather this year with tons of fresh snow (way more snow than 08), too. Also once again didn't miss any microspikes or equivalent. As long as you're not doing anything silly with timing you really don't need anything like that.
The snow is easy and fun, in my opinion. Just be careful, aware, kick good steps and time your ascents and descents. Unless you have a REAL serious case of acrophobia you'll be fine.