using an emergency foil tarp instead of a sleeping bag ?

[tarfu]

have one of the 9 oz heavy duty emergency sleeping bags of polymer-foil construction ...
thinking of scrapping the quilt-sleepingbag entirely and just using the EB ... anyone else done this with the new style bags ...?

[Mountain Dew]

I had one of the heavy duty ones that you refer to in '03. I got caught by an early cold front on Stratton Mountain and had to use it in combination with my 55 degre summer bag. My head and neck froze while from there down was drenched in sweat. Kindof like thawing food out on the wrong temperature. I suggest you go outside this winter and try it for a bit that way you can go right back inside it is doesn't work for you. Good luck...

[SGT Rock]

have one of the 9 oz heavy duty emergency sleeping bags of polymer-foil construction ...
thinking of scrapping the quilt-sleepingbag entirely and just using the EB ... anyone else done this with the new style bags ...?

The "science" behind these space blanket designs is flawed. don't try to substitute a real bag for something like this. I could go into the science of it if you were really interested.

They are not new. Think of it this way, space blanket bags and such have been around for about 35 years, if they worked that well backpackers would have caught on to them as a replacement for real bags in that time. A lot of other innovations that do work usually catch on in a couple of years.

A sleeping bag is your last line of defense against hypothermia which is probably the most dangerous hazzard you will face while hiking. Saving some weight, bulk, and money on something like this wouldn't be a wise decision.

[Youngblood]

You don't want to use the emergency bag in place of a conventional sleeping bag. The emergency sleeping bags are not designed for a comfortable nights sleep. They are designed to help you survive if you end up unexpectedly in dangerously cold weather. That is not what you are looking for when you are backpacking.

Youngblood

[Chip]

Back in April 1979, I did the space blanket vs sleeping bag idea. BIG MISTAKE !! We slept under a tarp and packed leaves underneath. My friends had sleeping bags and stayed warm. I froze ! Had to sit beside the camp fire all night to keep warm. I was 24 back then. I have learned alot since those days.

You can't beat a good sleeping bag !!! ;)

[chomp]

Another vote for a real sleeping bag. If you want to go lightweight, you can get one of those really light 50 degree bags and carry a EB for extra warmth on a cold night. While you will survive, you will not be very cofmortable. Sweating will be a serious problem, and if you have a down bag (and you will if you care about weight) the bag will get wet and therefore be less effective.

Also, if you do choose to go the EB route (and you could survive with one) do everyone else a favor and don't sleep in shelters. Those things are VERY LOUD when you are rolling around. Its hard to get to sleep with someone rolling around in one of those than it is with a snorer.

[Frosty]

Also, if you do choose to go the EB route (and you could survive with one) do everyone else a favor and don't sleep in shelters. Those things are VERY LOUD when you are rolling around. Its hard to get to sleep with someone rolling around in one of those than it is with a snorer.Speaking of loud sleeping arrangements, I recently tried TYVEK as a ground sheet. I used it for the first time last weekend. That thing was LOUD.

I assume it will quiet down when it gets used more, but I wonder if TYVEK can be washed (and still retain water resistant properties). Washing may soften it a bit more and make it less crinkly/rattly.

[SGT Rock]

Wash it a few times in the washing machine. Softens it up really well.

[Pencil Pusher]

'Comfort' is relative. I think you'd do fine with that blanket. Just roll yourself up like a burrito, leave the shoes on if it's cold and stuff your feet and burrito ends into your empty backpack. If you're still cold and neither hydration with water or olive oil is doing the trick, turn on the Tikka, pack up your stuff and start hiking.

[steve hiker]

Speaking of loud sleeping arrangements, I recently tried TYVEK as a ground sheet. I used it for the first time last weekend. That thing was LOUD.
There are two kinds of tyvek. Most common type is loud, then there's another type that is softer made and doesn't crackle. Don't have the names at hand, but they cost about the same and you can order them at:
Quest Outfitters in Sarasota, Fl Ph # 1-800-359-6931

OR http://home.midsouth.rr.com/tyvek

This ph# and web address is a couple years old, so don't know if it's still good.

[steve hiker]

'Comfort' is relative. I think you'd do fine with that blanket. Just roll yourself up like a burrito, leave the shoes on if it's cold and stuff your feet and burrito ends into your empty backpack. If you're still cold and neither hydration with water or olive oil is doing the trick, turn on the Tikka, pack up your stuff and start hiking.
Yeah. Try that. :(

[peter_pan]

The moisture control issue is a biggie. If forced to use EB as a supplement,m recommend planning ahead. Open it, fold in half lenghtwise, tape with clear box tape on bottom and up 2 ft of side. Now you have a foot sacked quilt to use as over cover.

Use one night, turn inside out let dry then pack...can use pack towel or dirty shirt to wipe dry.

You can improve this buy doing the "turn inside out" in the middle of the night when you do the p run. Note this is noisey, so best to camp away from others.

Used these techniques last spring on a 600 mile section. Used the EB 4 times. Know that your sweat also breaks down the mylars alum film. I can see thru about 15 % of the top area where most sweating occured. It still works but effectiveness is waning......I also agree....don't leave your quilt or bag home....this is a supplement for unseasonal or unexpected emergency.

[Youngblood]

You can use your rain gear when sleeping for a vapor barrier. I use my Frogg Toggs at times along with plastic bags under my fleece 'sleeping' socks. When I use my Frogg Toggs I vent my sleeping bag/quilt if I start to overheat. I haven't noticed much of a problem with perspiration, I just leave my slightly damp silk long johns on and put dry clothes on over them before I get out of my shelter. I continue to wear the long johns when it is cold until I warm up, at which time I stop and take them off. They are usually pretty dry by then.

Youngblood

[magic_game03]

I often feel like a winter hiker in a summer hikers forum.

ANY material that traps vapor will become counter productive in a few hours when being used to prevent hypothermia!!!

even when you are cold at night your body can process up to a quart of water a night. your body still has to cleanse itself through the blood and sweat glands. on cold nights your body kicks into hi metabolic state for sleeping and you sweat. for the first hour or so the trapped moisture will cause little effect but as the night wears on you loose the battle.

I've learn this lesson on many occasions from plastic tarps rolled up burrito style to using OR gear bags on my feet or hands in plastic bags to watching other hikers suffer because theyhave tried these methods. there are exceptions to every rule but i would suggest a smarter way than any material that traps my salty sweat in with me.

often survival is more in believeing in ones' self than reality, that's what i believe the EB is for.

[Youngblood]

...ANY material that traps vapor will become counter productive in a few hours when being used to prevent hypothermia!!!
...

Magic,

In cold conditions there are right ways, wrong ways and not so good ways to use a vapor barrier. When used the wrong way all your insulation gets soaked from your perspiration. When used the right way you only slightly dampen the clothes worn under the vapor barrier and you get additional warmth. I am still fairly inexperienced with it but have postive results and I have paid attention to what I was doing. I studied Stephenson's dissertation on "Vapor Barrier" ( http://www.warmlite.com/vb.htm ) before I felt I understood how to use it. Venting if/when you overheat is required to control excess sweating.

Youngblood

[peter_pan]

Magic,

Like Youngblood I too understand your post on the debilitating aspects of moisture in hypothemic battles. My post was to suggest ways to use the EB and fight the moisture problem. Seems to me the most imortant thing is to make sure the poster and readers on this subject know viable ways to fight the moisture on any occasional use of a non-permiable EB. Also key is the fact that these mylar EB deteriate rapidly after a use or two and for this additional reason they should not be planned as a routine substitution for a bag or quilt.

[Connie]

I understand the story of International Outward Bound is the organization was started because in the North Sea during WWII "old guys" survived in rafts or in the water, while "young guys" "in their prime" died.

It seems the "old guys" closed the cuffs and collars of their "oil slickers" and withstood the "salt water boils" ..and lived, while the "young guys" wanted to be more comfortable, were more afraid, and because of their "inexperience" didn't know what they could withstand, and died.

Now, I don't know if that is a true story: it is just the story I heard years ago.

That said, I know it is better to ventilate. I also know it is better to not get internal layers of clothing wet, and lose internal warmth to "conductivity" or "evaporative" "heat loss".

I know if I had to rely on a VBL bag for survival, I hope I would have dry clothing and a fleece bag inside the VBL, or like Stephenson's VBL socks, I understand, now have the fleece inside the VBL layer.

The use of a VBL in "arctic cold" is a different use.

I have read in Death by Exposure, "insensible moisture" is essential to skin functioning properly, and so, a layer of silk for preserving the "insensible moisture" is good. Furthermore, it goes on to say, you will keep pumping out more moisture, because your skin has a demand on your system for "insensible moisture" to regulate itself, and moisture is what you really need to conserve in the "arctic cold". That book recommends protecting the "insensible moisture" with a slik or silk blend first layer, then have the moisture transport layer, and then the next layer, either breathable shell, or a VBL, arranged with openings so you can "ventilate".

That said, I know an older woman, from Scotland that had walked on the moors as a girl with her dad in the rain, that survived 5 days and 4 nights in the coastal California Pt. Reyes National Seashore, against all odds. Her glasses were lost, while trying to hike out at night. She was at the end of a steep sided canyon, having followed a creek to the end of a steep sided canyon. She could not climb out, weak and exhausted as she was.

I convinced a retired sheriff to get the most qualified person, a RN Emergency Medicine specialist, into a little fancy "rescue car" and have that car drive slowly up and down the hiking trail, with the windows down, where she "had" to be. I asked, please tell hikers you are looking for a woman who is lost for days, may be weak and cold, and if it doesn't violate her "privacy" tell them her first name, asking would they keep their eyes and ears open, and if they like, call out her name.

Well, shortly.. a young woman came running after the "rescue car" saying we have found the woman who was lost. The young man she was hiking with had gone down the steep slope, to offer warm clothing and comfort until the "rescue car" arrived.

This was six counties Search and Rescue, acting like it was a "law enforcement problem" and conducting a "dead body" "grid search" when I got there.

This is the same bunch that stole all of my Mt. Rescue gear out of my truck. How do I know it was these idiots, because no one was allowed in there. They only had their own personnel. I knew the property owner, who had requested me.

I also listened, along with their scores of people from "approved" volunteer organizations to gruesome "stories" told buy "the wives" about number of maggots on recent dead bodies they had recovered, wounding the "morale" of the searchers.

The "law enforcement personnel" had never got their shoes dirty or dusty.

The horse search groups and dog search groups acted like they were on "holiday" in a melee of barking dogs and shying horses. There were no bloodhounds, because the Sheriff "in charge" didn't like the owner the bloodhounds.

I knew, if it was easy she would have been back out.

There are only so many bad things that can happen, losing glasses, getting wet, and following a stream into a steep-sided ravine being the most common.

There are also patches of woods, or hills, or canyons people can easily get disoriented in. If you are familiar with the territory, there are places like that.

This was one of those "places": I had been a "housesitter" at Pt. Reyes National Seashore for a year, and, of course, I knew the terrain.

The woman is alright.

I happened to know this woman. I drove my truck out there, when I heard she was lost.

However, anyone CAN do what she did.

She said, she drank "sock water" straining water from a rivulet of murky water thru her sock: it tasted bad but she needed water. She said, she slept in the open sun, whenever there was a little open sun. Drying one side a little, and drying the other side as much as she could.

She is alive, she made it.

I happen to think carrying provision for minumum needs of emergency food, water, and shelter on a "day hike" is a "good thing".

I also think those Croakies, or whatever, eyeglasses "snuggies" are called in your part of the world, are also a good thing.

I also think a person should "practice" in the nearby county park, or in their own backyard, and have a hi-lo thermometer to check the night they "felt cold".

That way, a person can know if their "emergency gear" is realistic, or not, for the worst weather to be anticipated on the day(s) for the place where they are going "for a hike".

I say, plan well, try out new stuff near home, and don't need to be rescued.

[magic_game03]

Youngblood & Peter pan,

In my experience you are correct to believe there are useful attributes to a vapor barrier if you know how to apply them. I would also add I do believe that it takes considerable experience to learn the dynamics of thermal insulation (three methods for heat transfer: conduction, convection, & radiation.)

Furthermore, I would say all hikers that are camping out should mess around with vapor barriers as much as they do their alcohol stoves when the elements are forgiving and/or they have surplus gear if things go wrong.

Ps. vapor barriers are great when you have to crawl out of your sleeping bag on a cold morning. Nothing like a boost of heat first thing in the morning.

[kentucky]

I have hiked lightweight to heavy and I tell you the lighter you hike the more miles you hike in general. I would not suggest to use an eb when you are hiking,not only will you take a chance of freezing but why take the chance? I might bring it only for emergency,besides a sleeping bag is way more comfortable and less noisy! some nights could be a real pain why add on to it!:rolleyes: