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Mountain Dew
08-13-2004, 04:05
Why do the liberal flame throwers have to piss on every thread they comment on by adding their political .02 worth ? Answer: They can't help/control themselves.

In 2003 when I heard the war with Iraq started on my headphones I just stopped and listening to reports of it for several hours. Then I prayed for the troups, OUR President, and thanked God for the Vets we had.

Blue Jay
08-13-2004, 07:17
Why do the liberal flame throwers have to piss on every thread they comment on by adding their political .02 worth ? Answer: They can't help/control themselves.

In 2003 when I heard the war with Iraq started on my headphones I just stopped and listening to reports of it for several hours. Then I prayed for the troups, OUR President, and thanked God for the Vets we had.

I'm an arch conservative vet. If you love the war and OUR president so much why don't you enlist. Oh, you listened on your headphones and prayed. I think I'm going to vomit.

icemanat95
08-13-2004, 11:30
Why do the liberal flame throwers have to piss on every thread they comment on by adding their political .02 worth ? Answer: They can't help/control themselves.

In 2003 when I heard the war with Iraq started on my headphones I just stopped and listening to reports of it for several hours. Then I prayed for the troups, OUR President, and thanked God for the Vets we had.

I had a similar experience in 1995. I was at a shelter in the Smokies when someone announced that the Oklahoma City Federal Building had been bombed. That was a cold bucket of water on our idyllic little vacation.

As to the liberals. Weary's posts was, technically true. The Trail virtually dissappeared in many areas during WWII, there just wasn't enough money or manpower to keep it up, nor enough traffic to beat the weeds down.

The current war is being financed by deficit spending, that's true enough as well. We can argue til the cows come home, have their calfs and then those calfs run off as well, and we won't agree whether this spending or war is necessary, so lets stay away from that.

The comment about our gradnchildren having to pay for the war is also true enough when you consider that Weary is one of our most venerable members (and I say that with great respect). Weary's grandchildren are approaching taxpaying age these days. Mine are 20 years or so away from being born.

Deficits always look grim on paper, but if we could just get Congress (both parties) to stop wasting our money on pork barrel "projects" and to get the job done in an efficient manner, we wouldn't have to even think about it. But that also is a whole other discussion.

Weary is a gentleman. I don't agree with his politics (mostly) but I respect him.

Blue Jay is another issue.

ridgewalker777
08-13-2004, 11:57
Excellent, open-minded post. There's no use being nostalgic about how things used to be, but rather to be conscious of the way things are, and how to make it better. There's a huge range of philosophical and political views represented in the hiking community, I doubt any political view is lacking. There seemed to be a lot of young folks with a decidedly green party or ABB perspective. I'm at the Organic Farming conferance in Amherst this weekend where Ralph Nader and Ron Paul will be debating the issues tomorrow night.

eyahiker
08-13-2004, 12:17
Why do the liberal flame throwers have to piss on every thread they comment on by adding their political .02 worth ? Answer: They can't help/control themselves.

In 2003 when I heard the war with Iraq started on my headphones I just stopped and listening to reports of it for several hours. Then I prayed for the troups, OUR President, and thanked God for the Vets we had.Yo GO Mountain Dew. You are so correct, I'm really tired of the whining I read on here myself, everything is blamed - incuding -war on the present admin., as if it all just happened overnight and history is moot. I guess if they can't control themselves, I can add my .02 also........

Personally, I want to vomit every time I hear the Kerry was a Vet 'line'. Where were all of these Vet-loving voters (many of whom were at the time 'hippies') when the troops came home? Where have they been all this time? Suddenly they're coming out of their closets to pat a Vet on the back for the sake of the election - sickening.

Vets should've been honored the minute they set foot back on USA soil, only AIM and other native groups have consistently honored them from that point on..... ( not that SOME OF US have always respected vets, there are many out there).

I was annoyed more by the political 'messages' in some of the registers on the AT as well, what a drag to have to hike all day and have somebody's political message in your face,( regardless of which side by the way), I like to hike to get away from it all:D

OK, I step down off my soapbox, thanks for my .02 cents worth of time. I'm thankful for all those who gave their lives so I can live free today, regardless of whose administration was in office at the time.

Blue Jay
08-13-2004, 12:43
Vets should've been honored the minute they set foot back on USA soil, only AIM and other native groups have consistently honored them from that point on..... ( not that SOME OF US have always respected vets, there are many out there).


I agree 100%. Too bad OUR president does not. He is the first (and hopefully the last) president to cut veterans benefits during war time. Kerry, who is sell out, corporate loving, common man hating, scum at least is a veteran and has at least the knowlege of war. I would rather have a vet send a vet to die, than a gutless coward who hid behind his father. Iceman we agree on the subject of Weary, you should be very scared.

SGT Rock
08-13-2004, 13:08
OK look, I am not supporting either of these gentelmen but the fact is Kerry is a vet and his a decorated one at that. You cannot just give yourself a BSM with V device no matter how much people want to bash him saying he didn't deserve it. A few someons in the chain of command all the way up to the one star level decided he must have deserved it, but that ain't even the highest award he has.

He has also somehow earned a Silver Star - and you can't just get one of those eithers. Silver Stars are not small potatoes. Apparently all the people in the chain of command also decided he deserved that. Oh, and by the way - both these awards have an investigation and board process to ensure they aren't just given out. The Silver star is a little more in-depth than the BSM with V though.

And to top that all off, he got hit three times. I have heard the big stink about the first one, that some people that think he didn't deserve it think he faked the funk - but again, you don't award these to yourself either. Someody else reccomended it, and another somebody else approved it. The supposed "big stink" is he caught some fragments from a grenade he shot himself. I can assure you I am familiar with the reg on awards, and in the case of wounds caused by freindly fire when firing at the enemy when that fire is intended to hit the enemy or wounds result as a part of that fire - you still qualify. I am not making that up, it is in the regulation. I also saw a debate by the veterans group calling Senator Kerry's record into question and a man that was actually on Kerry's crew. Seems the guys on Kerry's boat crew think he deserves everything he got, including the guys whos lives he saved pulling them out.

So what if he threw the medals at the White House, smoked them, gave them to his kids, or whatever - they are his. Like it or not he earned them and he was there in the ****. What makes me sick is people that were not calling his honor, integrity, or bravery into question. I guess it is easy to be an armchair warrior and find fault in the guy, but it would probably be 100 times harder to walk in his shoes during those times. I have been in places not nearly as bad, and I wouldn't dream of doing such things to anyone that has earned the decorations he had. So y'all out there that may have never served or did some peacetime service - get off your high horse and find something a little more substantial to complain about when it comes to Kerry, I am sure you can find something. But quit bashing the guy for his war record - he really has one and he actually knows what it is like to send soldiers to their death at the ground level.

I'm off my high horse now.

Blue Jay
08-13-2004, 13:28
Rock, thankyouthankyouthankyou

icemanat95
08-13-2004, 14:29
I was going to write a big long response to Sgt. Rock's post, but I won't.

Suffice it to say however, that there is a well documented history of officers awarding themselves medals for actions that may not have even occurred at all. In small units especially it is entirely possible for an officer to largely fabricate a combat action, cook up a story with his NCO's and then put everyone in for a medal for the "action." as long as no-one is around to deny their account, it's an administrative slam dunk.

It should also be noted that none of Kerry's wounds was serious enough to warrant more than a few lost hours of duty. By contrast many soldiers in WWII went AWOL from the hospital to return to their units in combat, many still severely injured and bleeding between their stitches. Many of those men never received Purple Hearts because they didn't hang around in the hospital long enough to bother. By contrast, Mr. Kerry had to apply for his first Purple Heart TWICE, since the commanding officer of the unit he ewas in when the action went down, took one look at him and told him to "forget it."

Sgt. Rock, your own military service puts that of John Forbes Kerry to shame, he was a political son using his military service for political gain, and he bolted at the first possible opportunity after he had built his resume up a bit.

I'll respect the fact that he served in combat, but I won't let that service absolve him of the dishonor he heaped on the service afterward, when it became politically expedient for him to so so, nor will I let it absolve him of his current, cynical grab for votes by trotting up his 35 year old military record of "heroism" after spending the past 35 years spitting on the services. What he did 35 years ago is one thing, but it's what he has done since then that concerns me.

Teatime
08-13-2004, 15:21
The reason I quit the Trailplace website was because of Wingfoot putting forth his political views on what I thought was neutral ground. Now, I see the same crap here on Whitleblaze, and although it's not the moderator doing it I still don't think its appropriate. I'm an Air Force veteran (Combat Communications units, mostly) who has spent time in Germany during the Cold War, in South Korea and in Saudi Arabia. I support our president but don't want to argue with those who don't on this website. If people have a political axe to grind, I wish they would do it somewhere else. Let's focus on what we all have in common, a love of the A.T.

Mountain Dew
08-13-2004, 16:01
SEE !!! Typical thread thrown off the face of sanity by a handful of liberals who just HAVE to make EVERY thread political by bashing America or PRESIDENT Bush. Thread starts out fine....flame throwing liberal launches his idiotic bomb and if just ONE sane person reply's the whole thread goes into WWIII. What a shame....

Blue Jay ... "I'm an arch conservative vet." bwa hahahahaaahahahaa Reduce the dosage bro on whatever it is that you are on.
Blue Jay... "If you love the war and OUR president so much why don't you enlist. Oh, you listened on your headphones and prayed. I think I'm going to vomit. " ---I have to enlist to support the war and the President ? You have faulty wires upstairs. You'll have to excuse me for being on the A.T. while i heard about the war...or was it that i stopped to pray that sent you into a foaming at the mouth liberal rant ? Go ahead and vomit. Most liberals do vomit at the sight of patriotism or support for America. :banana

Icemanat95, We can peacefully agree to disagre on a few of those topics no big deal i suppose. "Blue Jay is another issue" ..... didn't you mean to say " HAS ISSUES" ? :bse

Eyahiker... I was also annoyed that the scumbag liberals felt the need to express their views in registers in shelter after shelter in 2003. Why ? What purpose did it serve ? AGAIN....they can't help themselves. How they turn everything political on WB is the same way they did it on the trail. Sickening to say the least.

(before the crybaby's start to cry let Sgt. Rock speak for himself. We have met and get along. I respect the guy alot for what he does for hikers so please resist the urge to vomit verbally at me.)

Sgt.Rock, You being a near expert on this issue ( military) or as close as we have on WB besides other vets. You think that NO medals have gone to individuals that didn't warrant them ? Come on man.....

Sgt. Rock, The supposed "big stink" is he caught some fragments from a grenade he shot himself. I can assure you I am familiar with the reg on awards, and in the case of wounds caused by freindly fire when firing at the enemy when that fire is intended to hit the enemy or wounds result as a part of that fire - you still qualify. --- I recently read in the paper the rules for a purple heart. It clearly states that it is/can be awarded from friendly fire like you stated. Wounding yourself doesn't qualify, as that would lead to people wounding themselves for the medal etc. The rules CLEARLY state that wounding yourself is NOT friendly fire. What am I missing here ?

You claim that the words of the guys that served on his boat are paramount which I find hard to argue against, just like the people in the whitehouse claimed that Clinton didn't have an affair with Monica. Those close to us would often lie for us be it right of wrong ! One medic that treated him said that the wound was clearly not purple heart worthy and that it was superficial. Does his word count ? His words and claim you just brush aside. Why ?
Sgt. Rock, "What makes me sick is people that were not calling his honor, integrity, or bravery into question." --- I know you weren't referring to me when this was stated,but... Honor....depends on how you define it. Bravery.... I believe he was a brave man in the war. Yeah, I said it. hahahaa Integrity ? hahaaaa Give me a break ! He has none ! When A person apply's to become a police officer they call into question his integrity by a series of questions. One of them usually being something along the lines of.... " if you saw another officer doing such and such (stealing maybe) ...what then would you do ?" If you say nothing the interview is OVER... BYE BYE ! Kerry, claims to have seen all these war crimes by his fellow vets, but I find is highly suspiciuos that he never saw to it to turn every single one of them in. Surely the word of a Lt. would have carried weight. And a "highly" decorated one at that right ?
Sgt. Rock... "So y'all out there that may have never served or did some peacetime service - get off your high horse and find something a little more substantial to complain about when it comes to Kerry". You qualify those with the right to speak on such issues as VETS and state that those who haven't shouldn't say a word. OK fine, but that leaves you with a double standard when you merely brush aside the comments of vets who do meet those standards. Or are they somehow NOT qualified ? While I highly respect the fact that he served our country I don't then have to believe every story he tells. Where there is smoke like a wild fire there is usualy some level of truth/fire. I believe he honestly earned most of his medals, but I also think he "stretched" the truth on some. If this isn't my right and I can't have an opinion on this issues , (based on the accounts of dozens of vets), then who the can ! God bless American and the right to speak our minds even when the masses would silence us.
---------------------------
War Hero my ass. People pass that word around like it's candy. Those that hike the A.T. pass by a real war hero. Auddie Murphy...you didn't see him throwing his medals back only to run a campaign based on them years later. Neither would he have been pals with Jane Fonda who should have been shot for betraying our POW's ! Hell, even me and Lone Wolf most likely agree on Fonda. hahaaa

Brushy Sage
08-13-2004, 16:40
When I hiked in 2002 I had just retired from the Air Force. Since it was also just 6 months after 9/11 I felt real patriotic and decided to carry an American flag with me and fly it in camp every night. Everyone thought that was real neat.

P.S. Brushy Sage, I remember camping with you at Deep Gap shelter that year.



Yes, I remember you and the flag you carried. I think that was well received. Good to be in touch again.

SGT Rock
08-13-2004, 17:27
The reason I quit the Trailplace website was because of Wingfoot putting forth his political views on what I thought was neutral ground. Now, I see the same crap here on Whitleblaze, and although it's not the moderator doing it I still don't think its appropriate. I'm an Air Force veteran (Combat Communications units, mostly) who has spent time in Germany during the Cold War, in South Korea and in Saudi Arabia. I support our president but don't want to argue with those who don't on this website. If people have a political axe to grind, I wish they would do it somewhere else. Let's focus on what we all have in common, a love of the A.T.

Here I agree most whole heartedly. The political ramifications of supporting the AT or whatever might be clear on another thread if we actually had one on that. And then it would probably be one I choose to ignore because I rarely see any facts or exchange of ideas when it comes to polotics on a board - just dogma and parroting. We were talking about feelings of hikers and their actions during war and somehow went down a pig path.

There are a lot of follow up posts to what I said, yet the point I made still stands - get off it. Y'all cannot call me a liberal winnie or anything else that would pigeon hole me into supporting Kerry so much that I forgive any transgression. So take what I say and please try to get on with it. Would it help y'all to better understand why I am saying this if I told you I voted for Bush last election?

I read in a paper once that the ice age was comming back by the end of the 80's but that didn't make it so, neither does a reporter half quoting from the regulation without a clear understanding of it. And neither does it make it any better if someone who doesn't understand what it exactly takes to get these awards echoes what they heard someone else say. People are Monday morning quarterbacking this based of what they heard not what they really know.

This isn't like some blue blazer claiming to be a white blazer or anything that simple. Sure people put themselves in for awards they don't deserve, but that completely misses the point of what it takes to actually get or qualify for these awards. I do read the regulations and understand what they say. An O1, O2 or O3 no matter what cannot give himself any award. O5, O6, O7, and above are reqired for these things and that is a lot of juice. Political apointments to get things usually mean going to England and out of the draft or into a National Guard unit on low deployment status ahead of everyone else on a waiting list and keeps you on the rolls after you should have been DFRed (and no I am not only reffering to Bush), people do not use political clout to get sent to a swamp and catch disentary.

I know some of y'all saying this are bright folks out there, but you are not understanding the big picture. I mean honestly, if Kerry was a Republican with the same war record, he would be viewed as the man to lead us in war. But since he is not, the political party that seems to have a lock on good military sense has decided to find ways to nit pick his record. These are career politicians starting this stuff and spinning it to their advantage. Remember McCain, 4 years ago they were trying to make him out (from their own party) as less than desierable because of his war record - and the man was a POW under some of the most adverse conditions for a POW in recent times.

SGT Rock
08-13-2004, 18:14
Those that hike the A.T. pass by a real war hero. Auddie Murphy...you didn't see him throwing his medals back only to run a campaign based on them years later. Neither would he have been pals with Jane Fonda who should have been shot for betraying our POW's ! Hell, even me and Lone Wolf most likely agree on Fonda. hahaaa

I totally agree with this. I made a special hike up the mountain just to see the marker, and I visited his grave in Arlington. Audie wasn't perfect either, but I will let the things he did rest because in the end, he fought hard for this country and made himself into something from almost nothing. If he were running for either party today though, everything he ever did would be called into question not because of the war or anything that happened after that, but because politicians hate to loose.

If there are any people out there that have recently served in the Army (say since 1990) you know what the Sergeant Audie Murphy Club is all about, and I am proud to say I was inducted in 1994 as member number 655 by General Frank, I still carry the card with his signature on it in my wallet.

eyahiker
08-13-2004, 18:58
You're right.;)
Trailplace is much nastier - at least here you can actually have freedom of speech, and we should focus on the A.T. part...........



The reason I quit the Trailplace website was because of Wingfoot putting forth his political views on what I thought was neutral ground. Now, I see the same crap here on Whitleblaze, and although it's not the moderator doing it I still don't think its appropriate. I'm an Air Force veteran (Combat Communications units, mostly) who has spent time in Germany during the Cold War, in South Korea and in Saudi Arabia. I support our president but don't want to argue with those who don't on this website. If people have a political axe to grind, I wish they would do it somewhere else. Let's focus on what we all have in common, a love of the A.T.

weary
08-13-2004, 19:16
The reason I quit the Trailplace website was because of Wingfoot putting forth his political views on what I thought was neutral ground. Now, I see the same crap here on Whitleblaze, and although it's not the moderator doing it I still don't think its appropriate. I'm an Air Force veteran (Combat Communications units, mostly) who has spent time in Germany during the Cold War, in South Korea and in Saudi Arabia. I support our president but don't want to argue with those who don't on this website. If people have a political axe to grind, I wish they would do it somewhere else. Let's focus on what we all have in common, a love of the A.T.

Sometimes a love of the AT requires political involvement, as much as some persist in wishing to avoid it.

Everything in fact is connected. The AT in my considered opinion, is not safe with someone with Bush's record in the Whitehouse.

Politics -- decades of politics -- created and protected the trail. Only politics will keep it alive.

Weary

Kerosene
08-13-2004, 20:03
The AT in my considered opinion, is not safe with someone with Bush's record in the Whitehouse.Frankly, the real problem is that it won't be any safer with Kerry in the White House.

Lone Wolf
08-14-2004, 01:35
BUSH/CHENEY 04 The ONLY choice. Semper Fi!

Mountain Dew
08-14-2004, 02:08
Mr Ed... :clap b well said

Sgt. Rock... You are mistaken if you think that anybody called or implied that you were a liberal. That never happened. :-? The reporter I spoke about didn't "half" quote anything. You just made that up to further support your stance. He printed the whole criteria for a purple heart. It's even in very simple language. Oliver North was on Fox news and was asked about self inflicted wounds being eligible. He said NO and went on to state his opinion on the subject. Is he qualified ? Is he armchair quarterbacking ? I based my opinion on what they had to say and from my reading of the criteria. That's not called armchair anything. Facts are facts are facts and on and on.... I'll further respond to your entry's on this topic in private emails so that this topic may recover, if possible, to sanity. Hopefully the liberal bomb throwers will stop their antiproductive habits.

Sgt. Rock... "I mean honestly, if Kerry was a Republican with the same war record, he would be viewed as the man to lead us in war." --- No Republican that EVER associated with Jane Fonda would be elected to hold office on any level I dare say. I also didn't see where ANYBODY defended Bush's *war record in any way. Please correct me if i'm wrong here, but since you brought it up.... I agree with your assessment of the actions he took. You did say that Bush was a career politician which is also false. McCain's party was calling him to task about his own war record ? I didn't see it that way at all. That was the liberal spin trying to cause drama in my eyes. I'd love to see McCain run for office. I have never been a blind follower of individual. I vote for what I see as right. Bush isn't even close to my ideal. He's a true blue sellout and I'm halfway ashamed to call his a fellow Texan. I'm also glad to see that you know alot about Auddie Murphy. I carried a Texas flag from Springer in my pack so that I could leave it at his marker.

Weary... "Sometimes a love of the AT requires political involvement, as much as some persist in wishing to avoid it." --- You are almost right. Yes, love of the AT requires political involvement, but when you constantly throw your political slant on threads where one isn't needed or wanted it ruins the thread's topic. You feel the needs, along with several others, to ruin topics by force feeding it to the masses which in turn forces people to not want to visit WB. A.T. politics should be reserved for private conversations and political threads were it is clearly welcomed. If that were the case people that went into that thread would have no grounds for a complaint.

SGT Rock
08-14-2004, 10:37
Dew,

First I will start by saying I have NOTHING against you. The US needs more people like you that care enough to worry about things instead of going with the flow or not voting. Most kids these days never heard of Audie Murphy when they should have been taught about things like that in American History class. I wish you would join the Army and come serve with me, I need people like you.

I never meant to say you call me a liberal, I am just pointing out I am saying this from actual knowledge or experience. I am not a sycophant to the Democratic party or any part. I am not accusing you of anything, I just think you are taking this to the mat a little more than you ought to based on a few things you know TV, TV and other media will not spend the time to explain this out because they assume their audience doesn't have the attention span for it. Oliver North is a man that has a long service record in the Marines, but because of his background he hasn't necessarily had to become an expert on the regulations about awards. Normally it is a Senior NCOs job to be smart about these things and advise their commanders so the commanders don't have to spend all their time reading these things. I also at times wonder if he has aligned himself with the republican career politicians too much in recent years. But anyway, he is also a decorated war veteran who I respect for doing that. If it sounds like I am calling his character or integrity into question - I am not intending that.

Onto my point of writing this post...

I spend many hours a week reviewing and forwarding or changing awards a week. I refer to the regulation quite often even though I am not a admin wennie by nature. But as the senior NCO in my unit, I am the standard bearer for my unit at all times. If an officer in my unit submits any award (including BSMs) they have to go through me and I am usually the standard enforcer even though that officer outranks me technically. I have thrown a lot of bull**** flags in the past year. But if they make it through me, then a CSM looks at the award and does the same thing. So if an LT and a CPT at my level try to send a bull**** award through the system and I get forced to send it up (hasn't happened yet) then a CSM will do the exact same thing I do, and the LTC he advises will probably squash nuts on the award and it will never pass his door. But if the award makes it past him for whatever reason, then a COL and his CSM do it at the next level. Each level the person is more disinterested and more objective and something like a BSM has to go all the way to General Officer level except in some cases where the approval authority has the ability to allow a COL to become the approval authority for the BSM.

In the last year I have become very intimate with the awards regulation and I really couldn't do a Leader Development class here on awards, but basically this is a purple heart:

1. Soldier gets wounded in battle. If the soldier shoots himself - that doesn't count and I have seen some of that in Iraq. If a soldier is hit by the enemy he does qualify. If the soldier is charging a machine gun emplacement and his covering fire that is directed on the enemy accidentally hits him, according to the regulation he still qualifies. If I get hit from friendly artillery because I am in a close fight with the enemy and that fire is aimed at them and I also get hit - then I also, by regulation, qualify for the purple heart. If I call for that fire myself because they are in my perimeter and I need Final Protective Fire, I still qualify even though I called it and that would be technically self inflicted. A grenade fired or thrown at the enemy is the same thing. If I shoot an M203 at the enemy 100 meters away, I may catch a fragment of that grenade but I still qualify even if the frag came from my weapon because I was shooting at the enemy and the wound came as a result from the fire. I wasn't on the boat, but if a VC was 100 meters away and I fire a 40mm at him to kill him and catch some shrapnel, I would still qualify - the only difference is I would probably not tell anyone out of embarrassment. Some units might also not send up requests for those type of wounds because of personal opinions about such wounds, but that isn't necessarily in line with the regulation. I have seen purple hearts pulled after an investigation: a kid from my recruiting station was killed in GW I and the day before his funeral it was pulled because it turned out the guys squad leader got them blown up by playing with a cluster bomb. If this was a bull**** purple heart that Kerry got, his CO could have rescinded it back then. the fact that it never happened tells me it was legit.

2. The severity of the wound does not matter, only how the wound was inflicted. If the wound was treated by medical personnel is the only qualifier. Illness in a combat zone has not qualified anyone even though they are treated, but maybe in a bio attack that may change since the reg has never really had to deal with that. I mention that because an MP unit in Operation Just Cause (AKA Just Because) tried to award some purple hearts for heat casualties. My Regimental CSM (A real hard ass that I completely respect) was in a truck hit by an IED and only took a scratch to his arm and his gunner (if I remember correctly) got a broken arm and more than just a scratch. They were both treated and they both received purple hearts. My CSM is not the kind of guy to just take an award because he could - he qualified for and got the award. It is that simple. Sometimes it doesn't seem right, but this isn't that type of an award. I know a guy who half his head was shattered and lost an eye, and he got the exact same purple heart award as the CSM that only got scratched. My Step Father was shot in the head in Korea and his purple heart was the same as a guy that gets killed.

3. The soldier doesn't even put himself in or deny himself the award. the treating physician puts in the award recommendation and a hospital commander is the approving authority. The award must also be accompanied by at least one whiteness statement, which is a DD Form.

Now I have my own opinion based on what I have seen as to who really deserves an award and maybe some changes that should be made to the regulations because I don't necessarily always agree with them, but the fact is there is a process that says if you qualify for and who gets it. It seems like a lottery at times, and I was not in a hurry to win that one at all. You can keep the purple heart, I prefer the all arms and legs still attached and I'm still breathing medal at the end of my career.

Anyway, the guys I fight with are who I worry about. I know there are people in other units that probably think they deserve my BSM more than I did or maybe that I don't deserve my BSM. I could care less. The soldiers in my unit that were with my and know what was going on seem to think I deserved it and that is all that matters to me. Probably someday if I were to run for office they could get a team of "Cav guys against Engman" to say I didn't deserve my award either, but I could probably find about 100 men that would say different, and they are the ones that count. And just to clarify things, my BSM does not have a "V" device.

Peep
08-14-2004, 12:23
Why is it okay for one side (conservative or liberal) to present their perception of an issue, then when the other side brings another view to the floor and Whack! a war of words and philosophies begin? Everyone is allowed an opinion and it should be respected. The fact is, all our veterans should be honored. You downgrade one, you do it to all.

Now for my opinion. As an AT lover, I have to find fault with George W. Bush and his administration that have eroded environmental laws that help protect the AT and other long trails. That is a fact and you can check it out. Cheney's & W's administration has led us into a war that is currently a total mess. Bless all our Americans and all the others that are trying to bring it to a positive outcome. We are NOT respected in the world today and this administration is to blame. The rhetoric and stance they take is arrogant and isolationistic. If this is what you want our country to look like and direction its is going - then vote for Cheney/Bush. But honestly - Are you people reading the news?????

Now to the original question posted. The AT will be affected by the war in that billions of dollars are going to this war with no end in sight. Where do you think the money will come from? We are spending more dollars on this war than is imaginable and losing America's working class taxes by outsourcing. One of the first areas to be cut when money is low is the land, parks, trails and recreation areas. Also, you will see active movement to allow corporate loggers into our precious resources. Environmental laws will be cut back to allow profits for the big companies, plus you will see urban sprawl. And on and on and on.....
think, poohs, think......

eyahiker
08-14-2004, 14:26
Every body who ever held office, or ever will has faults. If you think that W is doing more to ruin the trail, you're way off, don't point such blame. The A.T. is not going to go away overnight because any specific person is elected or not elected.

This entire world is divided about so much because the lines have been blurred between right and wrong, good and evil, etc. etc.

There are absolutes that were created when this world was created, and trying to do everything possible from claiming "evolution" and "science" down to pointing fingers at politicians who want only one thing - to be elected, is foolish.

This country, like it or not, was founded on Biblical pricipals, it is has strayed from that - don't expect it to work properly. Every constitutional right you have has come from those who gave their lives for this country. Never mind if they wanted to be there, had to be there because of a draft, whatever - U.S. history can NOT be disputed in the sense that we are who we are because we have those who are willing to take up arms for good of all. Seems that the big picture is often missed, but that is only from where I stand. The consitution is being changed as we speak, and God is being taken out of the picture a chip away at a time. Here lies the root of this problem.

My .2 for Saturday, thanks for listening!:)

weary
08-14-2004, 18:12
[QUOTE=eyahiker]
This country, like it or not, was founded on Biblical pricipals, it is has strayed from that - don't expect it to work properly. ....The consitution is being changed as we speak, and God is being taken out of the picture a chip away at a time. Here lies the root of this problem.
QUOTE]

Actually, our founding fathers were largely biblical skeptics. And sadly, one version of God is being put into the picture a chip at a time and that is the root of the problem.

But eyahiker is right about one thing. One president will not destroy the trails created over the decades, but he can easily damage them severely. Roads built into roadless areas will remain for generations -- if not as roads, as a blighted landscape. One can destroy wildness overnight. It takes decades, centuries, to restore that which has been destroyed.

None of the Gods I've heard about have ever managed to speed the regrowth of a ravaged forest -- or easily restore the lakes, rivers and streams -- yes, even trails -- damaged by unwise humans intent on irradicating wildness for the sake of business profits.

Weary

b

weary
08-14-2004, 18:29
Frankly, the real problem is that it won't be any safer with Kerry in the White House.

I don't know of any evidence that this is true. Kerry has a 20 year record of support for the environment. I follow these things closer than most and I think Bush's environmental record is almost uniformly dismal.

If you have evidence that Bush's record on issues of air, water, trails and public lands is superior to that of Kerry, I would love to see it.

Weary

Blue Jay
08-14-2004, 19:43
Clearly Hudson you do not have any idea what the word "conservative" means. There are two main precepts. One is fiscal conservatism, to put it into language you could understand, you try to avoid spending public money. In this area Bush makes Ted Kennedy seem like a conservative. He just likes giving it to military support corporations (scam) instead medical insurance companies (scam). In fact in this area Bush makes FDR ( I know you've never heard of him, look it up) seem like a conservative. He started a whole new, completely useless, Department of State, one of the largest boondogles in the history of the United States

The second percept is political conservatism, which means a strict interpretation of the constitution. Read the Patriot Act, you will see that he has nothing but contempt for the constitution. Also he is the first president who has a criminal record. Hardly a conservative in this area in any sense of the definition.

There is no conservatives by any sense of the word in this upcoming election. You are supporting a liberal and are too stupid to know it. You claim you respect vets, but your very words to Sgt. Rock show clearly you do not.

steve hiker
08-14-2004, 19:57
Sgt. Rock's discussion reminds me of a story told by my dad, who served in Vietnam as an Air Force physician. When his unit would be hit, they'd send him a roster of everyone's names for a designation of those who should receive purple hearts. First thing he'd do, is to scratch his own name off the list. Then he'd go down the list scratching out names except for the few who suffered injuries. Sgt. Rock's description of the review process is reassuring, as military medals are true medals of honor and should not be given out nilly willy.

SGT Rock
08-14-2004, 21:02
The reporter I spoke about didn't "half" quote anything. You just made that up to further support your stance. He printed the whole criteria for a purple heart.

I have to belive he did not print the entire thing if what he wrote supports the fact that a man firing a grenade launcher at the enemy and getting hit is not grounds for a Purple Heart based on what he wrote. If Kerry had been shooting a grenad launcher on a range in combat and hurt himself, had been playing golf in a minefield, or had been playing hot potato with a grenade and got hurt - then it would be his own negligence. But any round released with the intent of killing enemy or destroying enemy equipment is "Friendly Fire" and is covered in the Regulation. Here is the entire part of the reg that talks about the Purple Heart and how one qualifies. I have highlighted the parts that deal with the subject in question:




2–8. Purple Heart

The Purple Heart was established by General George Washington at Newburgh, New York, on 7 August 1782, during the Revolutionary War. It was reestablished by the President of the United States per War Department General Orders 3, 1932 and is currently awarded pursuant to Executive Order 11016, 25 April 1962, Executive Order 12464, 23 February 1984 and Public Law 98–525, 19 October 1984.

a. The Purple Heart is awarded in the name of the President of the United States to any member of an Armed Force or any civilian national of the United States who, while serving under competent authority in any capacity with one of the U.S. Armed Services after 5 April 1917, has been wounded or killed, or who has died or may hereafter die after being wounded—

(1) In any action against an enemy of the United States.

(2) In any action with an opposing armed force of a foreign country in which the Armed Forces of the United States are or have been engaged.

(3) While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

(4) As a result of an act of any such enemy of opposing armed forces.

(5) As the result of an act of any hostile foreign force.

(6) After 28 March 1973, as a result of an international terrorist attack against the United States or a foreign nation friendly to the United States, recognized as such an attack by the Secretary of Army, or jointly by the Secretaries of the separate armed services concerned if persons from more than one service are wounded in the attack.

(7) After 28 March 1973, as a result of military operations while serving outside the territory of the United States as part of a peacekeeping force.

b. While clearly an individual decoration, the Purple Heart differs from all other decorations in that an individual is not “recommended” for the decoration; rather he or she is entitled to it upon meeting specific criteria.

(1) A Purple Heart is authorized for the first wound suffered under conditions indicated above, but for each subsequent award an Oak Leaf Cluster will be awarded to be worn on the medal or ribbon. Not more than one award will be made for more than one wound or injury received at the same instant or from the same missile, force, explosion, or agent.

(2) A wound is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above. A physical lesion is not required, however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record.

(3) When contemplating an award of this decoration, the key issue that commanders must take into consideration is the degree to which the enemy caused the injury. The fact that the proposed recipient was participating in direct or indirect combat operations is a necessary prerequisite, but is not sole justification for award.

( 4 ) Examples of enemy - related injuries which clearly justify award of the Purple Heart are as follows:

(a) Injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel, or other projectile created by enemy action.

(b) Injury caused by enemy placed mine or trap.

(c) Injury caused by enemy released chemical, biological, or nuclear agent.

(d) Injury caused by vehicle or aircraft accident resulting from enemy fire.

(e) Concussion injuries caused as a result of enemy generated explosions.

(5) Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not qualify for award of the Purple Heart are as follows:

(a) Frostbite or trench foot injuries.

(b) Heat stroke.

(c) Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents.

(d) Chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy.

(e) Battle fatigue.

(f) Disease not directly caused by enemy agents.

(g) Accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular, and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by enemy action.

(h) Self-inflicted wounds, except when in the heat of battle, and not involving gross negligence.

(i) Post traumatic stress disorders.

(j) Jump injuries not caused by enemy action.

(6) It is not intended that such a strict interpretation of the requirement for the wound or injury to be caused by direct result of hostile action be taken that it would preclude the award being made to deserving personnel. Commanders must also take into consideration the circumstances surrounding an injury, even if it appears to meet the criteria. Note the following examples:

(a) In a case such as an individual injured while making a parachute landing from an aircraft that had been brought down by enemy fire; or, an individual injured as a result of a vehicle accident caused by enemy fire, the decision will be made in favor of the individual and the award will be made.

(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of “friendly fire” in the “heat of battle” will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the“friendly” projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.

(c) Individuals injured as a result of their own negligence; for example, driving or walking through an unauthorized area known to have been mined or placed off limits or searching for or picking up unexploded munitions as war souvenirs, will not be awarded the Purple Heart as they clearly were not injured as a result of enemy action, but rather by their own negligence.

c. A Purple Heart will be issued to the next of kin of each person entitled to a posthumous award. Issue will be made automatically by the Commanding General, PERSCOM, upon receiving a report of death indicating entitlement.

d. Upon written application to Commander, ARPERCEN, ATTN : DARP–VSE–A, 90700 Page Boulevard , St. Louis, MO 63132–5200, award may be made to any member of the Army, who during World War I, was awarded a Meritorious Service Citation Certificate signed by the Commander in Chief, American Expeditionary Forces, or who was authorized to wear wound chevrons. Posthumous awards to personnel who were killed or died of wounds after 5 April 1917 will be made to the appropriate next of kin upon application to the Commanding General, PERSCOM.

e. Any member of the Army who was awarded the Purple Heart for meritorious achievement or service, as opposed to wounds received in action, between 7 December 1941 and 22 September 1943, may apply for award of an appropriate decoration instead of the Purple Heart.

f. For those who became Prisoners of War after 25 April 1962, the Purple Heart will be awarded to individuals wounded while prisoners of foreign forces, upon submission by the individual to the Department of the U.S. Army of an affidavit that is supported by a statement from a witness, if this is possible. Documentation and inquiries should be directed to Commander, PERSCOM, ATTN:TAPC–PDA, Alexandria, VA 22332–0471.

g. Any member of the U.S. Army who believes that he or she is eligible for the Purple Heart, but through unusual circumstances no award was made, may submit an application through military channels, to Commander, PERSCOM, ATTN: TAPC–PDA, Alexandria, VA 22332–0471. Application will include complete documentation, to include evidence of medical treatment, pertaining to the wound.

h. As noted in a above, the Purple Heart may be awarded to civilian nationals of the United States. These individuals must be serving under competent authority with the Army when wounded. Serving under competent authority with the Army will include those eligible persons who are employees of the U.S. Government in a duty (pay or official travel) status when wounds are sustained.

Examples of eligible individuals are as follows:

(1) Any Army employee who is traveling outside of the continental limits of the United States on PCS or temporary duty (TDY) aboard a commercial aircraft and wounded by international terrorists in an attempted or actual hijacking incident.

(2) An Army employee in an Army office building performing his or her job who is wounded by an explosive device detonated by international terrorists.

(3) A civil or foreign service employee from a U.S. Government Agency or Department attached to an Army element performing intelligence, counter-terrorist, or other duties with the Army wounded by international terrorists.

(4) An Army employee wounded in an international terrorist incident in which a soldier or soldiers are also wounded.

Note I was wrong about one thing and that is the fact that they have covered sickness as a result of Bio attack. This is the Army verson of the regulation, but the entire thing is based on Executive Order, the Army doesn't get to make up it's own version of the medal and requirements. The Navy regulation would echo about the same thing.

There is more in the regulation later on, but it only covers processing, how to make the certificate, required forms, etc. If anyone is really intrested I can add that too, as well as any information pertaining to what really goes on in the awards proccess.

Connie
08-14-2004, 21:58
Yikes ! I agree with BlueJay. Isn't this country amazing..

If you-all think there is anyone to vote FOR, I say, you are just not aware !

http://thomas.loc.gov has the "official" verbatim law right there to read, of the laws comming out from Washington, D.C.

Read the "scarey" facts: these are terrible laws.

..any sitting president that could allow that so-called "patriot act" or that "health" act is not loyal to his oath of office.

..and, if it is true Kerry is associated with Jane Fonda, that traitor who should have been shot, as a traitor she is, then, there is no one qualified to be on the ballot, from either "party".

I know what it is like to be in military service, under a criminal President, President Nixon. He was our Commander-in-Chief, not just our President.

I know he could not acted on his own: his "cronies" and their ilk" are still around. I feel that scum rises to the top, because "citizen statesmen" have been displaced by people not serving the interests of the united states, and that would be lawyers that are members of the B.A.R.

I think any lawyer, a member of the B.A.R. (the British Accredation Registry, London England) has disqualified from running for public office, and, I think the laws should say so.

I have heard existing law do say no one holding federal office of President of the United States can receive an "honor" from a foreign power. I say being a member of the bar, and having Esq. (Esquire) appended to one's name is having an "honor" from a foreign power.

It is not necessary to be a member of the B.A.R. to understand law, and laws.

I have said this before, and I will say it again, political process is not something distasteful, and so, aversion to the "political process" of speaking out on the issues is to be somehow avoided.

We need to "step up": we are the "citizen statesmen (and women)" because we care about "pork barrel" spending, and then, having "blinders on" to the rest of the "doings" of the politicians.

I understand the AT is not an Indian Trail, that existed millenia. The AT is a trail that has to be maintained, by thousands, thousands of volunteers, and paid services because the trail would be overgrown in one season, in places.

Out here, we have a Old Trail, or Old North Trail, that existed for millenia, but it crossed "private property" is fenced, and in some cases you need a licensed guide to see the "travois ruts" in the ground, from the days of horse travel. But that path was trod, on foot, for millenia.

The CDT apparently does not want to deal with the problems and issues of "permissions" and really has no trail: there is no continuous trail on, or ajacent to, The Continental Divide.

I know, I hike it. I ride it. I am closely familiar with it.

With all the "huts" and "forest service roads" and "county roads" and "nearby towns" ..the AT is more trail than we have here, in The Rocky Mountains, with real wilderness here still existing in "pockets".

I think you-all do need to be aware: the AT is something "very special" made by people "involved" in "political process" for many decades.. to bring you the "gift" of the AT !

My dad said, each generation has to make the effort to leave something worthwhile for the next generation, or there is nothing worth having. I say, well said dad.



Connie

neo
08-14-2004, 22:10
i am proud to be an american,proud of my family heritage,i am proud i served in the us navy from 1978-1982.i am proud that you serve our country in the us army,thanks again sgt.rock.i love this country.on a section hike with my oldest son hank in june 2002
we stopped at the audie murphy memorial,it seemed fitting for me to take my
bandana,that was covered with american flags off and leave it in honor of audie murphy,he was a great warrior.i am proud to call all those that have served in our military,my brother and my sister,happy trails to all,neo:)

eyahiker
08-15-2004, 00:08
Actually, our founding fathers were largely biblical skeptics. And sadly, one version of God is being put into the picture a chip at a time and that is the root of the problem.
Wow, a lot of great thoughts here, however Weary, you are apparently not educated in the area of the [creation of] the constution. I also question your famililarity of the founding fathers who settled (and raped and pillaged) this land and drew up the constitution. If you will research this further, it is based on Biblical principals, and the signers of the declaration were all practicing Christians. The entire system of judgement is based on Biblical principals. Also, look up Manifest Destiny, the very reason we pushed west, and the roots behind this, which has ultimately led to our present opportunity to exploit, or preserve this land we call home.

There are absolutes in life, but those who are not strong do not want these -whether they deal with one's morals, politics, or environmental practices. I'd like to have more hope, however it is a given that things will not improve in this area, development and population will increase, supply and demand will grow long after all of us here are gone - the question is, when you do die, and we all will - you will have to answer to the Creator of absolutes, God.

Interesting - the same way we want all of our politicians to answer for their decisions, actions, electorial promises etc.........and we judge them on these things.

Let's all enjoy the A.T. and hope that future generations will be able to enjoy it as well, roads will go in, land will be lost = but land is also being gained by individuals who can help by purchasing what they can near the trail, this would be putting your money where your mouth is for many of us, huh.

As for the troops and vets, they are in my thoughts and prayers, I am thankful for the freedom we have here in the U.S.A. and am so glad to see that there are many here.:clap You guys are awesome!

Happy trails to you all, and have a beautiful tomorrow!:)

Tha Wookie
08-15-2004, 03:08
Hey Eyahiker, I heard Ben Franklin was an athiest. Can't remember where, though. Maybe you verify that with your vast research on the matter?

Tha Wookie
08-15-2004, 03:18
I bet I can guess who nearly all (if not all) of the ATC employees are voting for.

Same one I'm voting for.

Mountain Dew
08-15-2004, 04:03
Sgt. Rock ... Like i said... I'll respond to you in email. I also know that you have nothing against me. I've debated many friends on the trail before and never got mad at them during the debate. Not that this topic will ever get back on track after being taking off topic by liberalism at its finest.

Peep, "The fact is, all our veterans should be honored. You downgrade one, you do it to all." --- That blanket statement is ridiculous and simple minded. Each person should be judged individually. You surely don't think that there have never been dishonorable soldiers/veterans. You simply threw that statement out there with partisan motifs. You start your second paragraph out with... " Now for my opinion " ... as if the first paragraph wasn't. Pretty humerous.

Weary ... Out of curiosity tell me one thing that Kerry has done that has directly effected the A.T. in a possitive way. NOT what he WILL do either. I'm thinking you'll find me something since you do seem to follow this sort of thing.

BlueJay ... You are hilarious. YOU are trying to act like Professor Conservative with lessons for me. Oh boy ....Let me grab an oxygen mask and rubber boots for your deep BS incase this gets real deep. You are an ashamed liberal attempting to hide in conservative clothing. I wouldn't admit it either if I were such. One way I know is how you mention Teddy Kenedy ( aka lady killer) as if he were your hero. Probably is. I've never heard of "FDR" ? Yeah and you used his initials because you can't spell his full name. Anybody with a pulse knows who F.D.R. is/was. Classic !!! You think that you are smart because you know who he was ! In your next paragraph you argue that Bush can't be a conservative because he has a criminal record. Yeah, if you have ever been arrested then you are not allowed to be a conservative according to "Blue Jay logic". bwahahahaa :bse You call me stupid, but yet you say Bush is a liberal. Oh boy... I'll take it a little easy on your fragile mind here... He is against abortion, always talks about God/Church, and has countless other classic conservative platforms upon which he stands. For you to say he is a liberal is probably enough right there to ignore you, but this is too much fun. I know exactly who I support. The lessor of the two evils in my opinion. G. Bush ! I've said it many times before. He makes me almost ashamed that he is from my state.

BlueWacko, "You claim you respect vets, but your very words to Sgt. Rock show clearly you do not." ---I will let Sgt. Rock's words answer for me here.
Sgt. Rock, "The US needs more people like you that care enough to worry about things instead of going with the flow or not voting. I wish you would join the Army and come serve with me, I need people like you."

Need I say more or did you like the taste of that ? :banana

Lone Wolf
08-15-2004, 04:49
Then step up to the plate and join up.

steve hiker
08-15-2004, 05:10
Bush ... is against abortion, always talks about God/Church, and has countless other classic conservative platforms upon which he stands.
If you think that makes someone a conservative, you are really, really naiive. A sucker with a captal S.

eyahiker
08-15-2004, 05:57
Hey Eyahiker, I heard Ben Franklin was an athiest. Can't remember where, though. Maybe you verify that with your vast research on the matter?Athiest? Heresay.
Happy to verify with some history............his ideas are actually pretty prophetic.;)
Benjamin Franklin was one of America's most influential and famous founding fathers. He was also a scientist, and author and a printer. He founded the University of Pennsylvania, signed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States, and was Governor of the state of Pennsylvania.




As Governor, Franklin in 1748 proposed a day of fasting and prayer for Pennsylvania:
It is the duty of mankind on all suitable occasions to acknowledge their dependence on the Divine Being...[that] Almighty God would mercifully interpose and still the rage of war among the nations...[and that] He would take this province under His protection, confound the designs and defeat the attempts of its enemies, and unite our hearts and strengthen our hands in every undertaking that may be for the public good, and for our defense and security in this time of danger.



Here are some noteworthy excerpts from Franklin's Autobiography:




I have been religiously educated as a Presbyterian; and ... I was never without religious principles.


I never doubted, for instance, the existence of the Deity; that he made the world, and governed it by his Providence; that the most acceptable service of God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished, and virtue reward, either here or hereafter.


These I esteemed the essentials of every religion; and, being to be found in all the religions we had in our country, I respected them all, though with different degrees of respect, as I found them more or less mixed with other articles, which without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, served principally to divide us, and made us unfriendly on one another.


This respect of all...induced me to avoid all discourse that might tend to lessen the good opinion another might have of his own religion; and as our province increased in people, and new places of worship were continually wanted, and generally erected by voluntary contribution, my mite for such purpose, whatever might be the sect, was never refused.

Though I seldom attended any public worship, I had still an opinion of its propriety, and of its utility when rightly conducted, and I regularly paid my annual subscription for the support of the only Presbyterian minister or meeting we had in Philadelphia. He used to visit me sometimes as a friend, and admonish me to attend his administration.




In July of 1776, the Congress appointed Franklin to a committee charted to develop a seal for the new United States of America -- a seal that would capture the spirit and character of the new nation. This is what Franklin proposed:
Moses lifting up his wand, and dividing the Red Sea, and Pharaoh in his chariot overwhelmed with the waters. This motto: 'Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.'


Here's what Franklin wrote in a letter dated March 1778 to the Ministry of France:

Whoever shall introduce into public affairs the principals of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world.



In addition, Franklin wrote:



A Bible and a newspaper in every house, a good school in every district -- all studied and appreciated as they merit -- are the principal support of virtue, morality, and civil liberty.




In a pamphlet titled Information to Those Who Would Remove to America, written for Europeans who were considering coming to America, Franklin made these observations:
Hence bad examples to youth are more rare in America, which must be a comfortable consideration to parents. To this may be truly added, that serious religion, under its various denominations, is not only tolerated, but respected and practiced.


Atheism is unknown there; infidelity rare and secret; so that persons may live to a great age in that country without having their piety shocked by meeting with either an Atheist or an Infidel.

And the Divine Being seems to have manifested his approbation of the mutual forbearance and kindness with which the different sects treat each other; by the remarkable prosperity with which he has been pleased to favor the whole country.


On June 28, 1787, the Constitutional Convention was deadlocked and embroiled in bitter controversy. Benjamin Franklin rose and made the following plea to the delegates:




In the beginning of the Contest with Great Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending providence in our favor.


To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?


I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?


We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that 'except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.' I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages ...

I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessing on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.

Blue Jay
08-15-2004, 07:52
Peep, "The fact is, all our veterans should be honored. You downgrade one, you do it to all."

BlueJay You call me stupid, but yet you say Bush is a liberal. Oh boy... I'll take it a little easy on your fragile mind here... He is against abortion, always talks about God/Church, and has countless other classic conservative platforms upon which he stands.

BlueWacko, [I]"You claim you respect vets, but your very words to Sgt. Rock show clearly you do not."

Yet again you prove me correct, This is like shooting fish in a barrel. Conservatism is a political pholosopy. Christianity is not (talking about it is about all that he does). That was your entire rational to prove Bush is a conservative, absolutely pathetic.

Adolf Hitler was opposed to Abortion, if you were the correct race. He also thought of himself as a Christian. I'm sure you would have supported him also.

smokymtnsteve
08-15-2004, 09:26
"The missionaries go forth to Christianize the savages--as if the savages weren't dangerous enough already"

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

eyahiker
08-15-2004, 11:42
So much contempt and hate for Christians. But the liberals LOVE everyone and all beliefs, even those in Florida who can take their driver license photos with their faces covered.......hmmmm. Make sense to you?
This whole tired political/religiousk argument is so old. What do those who hate W or what he practices and believes hope to do by slamming him here? Or any one for that matter? Do you really think your opinion will change things - I hardly think mine will. It's a good thing to stand up for what you believe in regardless what people think. Vets understand this I think, I have met many who have come back that are really happy that they had the opportunity to fight for their country, even though they are met with the pathetic headlines in liberal media that seek to negate the entire reasons they were there ( sounds like the Vietnam "Welcome Home" all over again to me). Again, not everyone treats them this way, in our community there are many open arms, and have been lots of prayer for their safety while they've been away.........I suspect this has happened throughout many wars, for the entire history of the world and its wars, just now the prayer is more public.......I wonder why it would bother folks if someone would pray for a serviceman's safe return? Hmmmm.


Newsweek did a nasty article on W in 03. Here is one response I'd like to share. This is not meant to push either side. I find it funny how W can claim Christianity and folks are up in arms, and yet J.Kerry is using it and many rally around him - didn't I hear him quote scripture in his acceptance speech - why yes I did. Isn't it always the liberals who are screaming separation of church and state? Why is it then that that their candidates (JK) consistently go into church's spouting politics? Imagine the backlash if Bush went into a church to blast his "opponents in the upcoming election". Actually, I don't expect liberals to follow their own principles, it just gets in the way

BTW, This is from a liberal news outlet.

By Al Knight
Denver Post Columnist

Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - It has long been true that, while members of certain groups are not to be ridiculed in the nation's culture, members of other groups are fair game year-round.

Evangelical Christians top the list of groups that can be safely targeted without apology or regret.

Thus, it's no surprise that Newsweek, one of the nation's leading news magazines, devotes its cover story this week to the issue of President Bush's relationship with God. The headline of this piece is, in fact, "Bush and God." The article suggests that the president's beliefs are more important now because of the possibility of war. The article, however, offers no information that would suggest the president's faith is a factor in his policy regarding Iraq.

It needs to be said at the outset that the long-winded article isn't really a direct attack on President Bush's religious beliefs.

Rather, Newsweek uses time- honored news-magazine methods of making the trivial seem important while steadfastly ignoring more obvious matters. Comments are attributed to people without names or specific titles. Aides, friends and observers provide anonymous comments or insights that advance the central theme of the article. Unrelated facts are tossed together to create a series of calculated impressions.

So what is the result? Well, George Bush, it turns out, is a guy who not only is a practicing Christian but one who reads the Bible and relies on his faith to help him face the challenges of life and the presidency.

This is not surprising news. Millions of Americans use similar approaches in dealing with life's concerns. Newsweek finds something sinister in Bush's past. It asserts that Bush started way back in 1987 to organize the forces of evangelical Christians and that, today, evangelical Christians make up the "core" of the entire Republican Party.

That will come as huge news to the many members of the GOP who are more interested in tax policy and national defense than in the president's faith-based initiatives. It also will surprise Christians who make up a sizable portion of the Democratic Party.

Newsweek insists it has discovered the political "wish list" that Bush is pursuing to solidify his base of "believers."

This list, it says, "includes conservative, pro-life judicial nominations; new HUD regulations that allow federal grants for construction of 'social service' facilities at religious institutions; a ban on human cloning and 'partial-birth' abortion; a sweeping program to allow churches, synagogues and mosques to use federal funds to administer social-welfare programs; strengthened limits on stem-cell research; increased funding to teach sexual abstinence in schools rather than safer sex and pregnancy prevention; foreign aid policies that stress right-to-life themes; and federal money for prison programs that use Christian tough love in an effort to lower recidivism rates among convicts."

The problem with this long passage is that it implies that only evangelical Christian Republicans support these steps. That is nonsense. A ban on partial-birth abortions, for example, has wide public support. So, too, does a ban on human cloning. As for the other elements, such as sex education, these are relatively minor matters addressed by small federal initiatives.

The Newsweek article presents both a false and misleading picture, one that deliberately misses the larger issue: how the nation's politics and culture is being affected by the Bush administration.

Is the culture being coarsened by this president? Hardly.

It is widely reported that elements of the Muslim faith "hate" the United States because of its coarse culture. The evidence of that coarseness need not be listed here. It is true, however, that its most offensive elements are associated with some of the very people who are Bush's most strident and persistent critics.

Some of these critics, in Hollywood and out, would have the nation think that having a believing president represents a greater risk to the nation than the continuing spread of a corrupt and immoral culture.

They are wrong about that. Most Christians know it, and so do most Muslims. The wonder is that Newsweek has yet to discover it....

and some folks on WB. (Yes, I added this...)

The A.T. has and always will be a haven for those who seek their 'own thing', so enjoy it while you may, regardless of wars, political parties or beliefs, things will continue to change in this world.

weary
08-15-2004, 14:06
[B]Weary ... Out of curiosity tell me one thing that Kerry has done that has directly effected the A.T. in a possitive way. NOT what he WILL do either.

Well conservation groups seem to think that Kerry has an almost unblemished environmental record -- and that Bush has an almost entirely blemished environmental record.

But if you want a specific, Kerry was a strong voice of support for the Forest Legacy program inaugurated under President Clinton that helped protect thousands of acres along and near the trail in Maine.

I find it fascinating that this debate includes a great deal of pro-Bush rhetoric, but virtually nothing that indicates his support for environmental protection. Well, L. Wolf's or someone did claim that air policies will help -- though they conspiculously failed to cite any facts to support the claim.

As for Eyeahiker: Ben Franklin was a politician who played to the masses. But a careful reading of his life reveals scientific skepticism of what was then popularly believed to be biblical truisms. I think the most telling of your quotes was Franklin's comment on "primitive" Christianity. A careful reading of Christ's words suggests to me, as it did to Ben, that Christianity, both now and in the 18th and early 19th centuries, has little to do with Christ's words.

A lot of silly and a lot of destructive things have been done in the name of Christ and in the claim of "manifest destiny." I prefer to blame humans. Not Christ and not the Christian Bible.

I agree, of course, that individuals should spend money, raise money and donate money to buy land to protect the trail. That's basically what I do these days.

Weary

eyahiker
08-15-2004, 15:00
A careful reading of Christ's words suggests to me, as it did to Ben, that Christianity, both now and in the 18th and early 19th centuries, has little to do with Christ's words.

A lot of silly and a lot of destructive things have been done in the name of Christ and in the claim of "manifest destiny." I prefer to blame humans. Not Christ and not the Christian Bible.

I agree, of course, that individuals should spend money, raise money and donate money to buy land to protect the trail. That's basically what I do these days.

WearyWeary, you are right on. I do agree with you. Unfortunately, there are many who call themselves Christians who do not follow Christs teachings. He was considered quite the liberal for the times himself. Man has certainly turned teachings of truth into business, and 'clubs' to benefit themselves, which was not what was taught. The Bible does get a bad rap which is too bad, it says so much cool stuff about the environment. I wonder if people think that folks who do follow the teachings of Christ, or the Bible are all really miserable or something.......there's a reason why there are millions of believers around the world, even if we do have people in the public eye that screw up royally - doesn't mean they represent all of us. No more than one thief on the AT means that all hikers are theives:rolleyes:

Just a few details about Bush's environmental record:

Clear Skies Initiative improves air quality now. (Aug 2003)
Restrict wetland development, but not arsenic or CO2. (Apr 2001)
More lead emission reporting requirements. (Apr 2001)
Weaken Clean Air; no comment on Clean Water. (Nov 2000)
Incentives for private land stewardship & conservation. (Jun 2000)
Conservation partnerships to protect lands & watersheds. (Jun 2000)
$60M for private stewardship; tax break on conservation land. (Jun 2000)
Superfund failing: too costly; too litigious; too complex. (Apr 2000)

Keep drilling; keep dams; keep private property. (Apr 2000)







<LI>Brownfields + Parks




Proposes $211M to cleaning up brownfields. (Aug 2003)
$450M annually for wildlife and open spaces. (Sep 2000)
$4.9B to repair “crumbling” national parks. (Sep 2000)

Reinvest in Conservation Fund; repair parks & refuges. (Apr 2000)




<LI>Federal Role




(http://javascript<img%20src=&quot;/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif&quot;%20border=&quot;0&quot;%20alt=&quot;&quot;%20title=&quot;Stick%2 0Out%20Tongue&quot;%20smilieid=&quot;6&quot;%20class=&quot;inlineimg&quot;% 20/>op('../2004/George_W__Bush_Environment.htm#Federal_Role');)Goo d stewardship is personal responsibility and public value. (Aug 2003)
Natural resources & environment funding in FY04 highest ever. (Aug 2003)
Federal standards+local collaboration; no command & control. (Oct 2000)
Replace mandate/regulate/litigate with decentralized efforts. (Sep 2000)
Can’t sue our way to clean air & water--work with industry. (Apr 2000)
Keep fed enviro role but give money & flexibility to states. (Apr 2000)
Base enviro decisions on science & market-driven solutions. (Apr 2000)

http://www.rep.org/news/GEvol3/ge3.2_Bushreport.html
Above is an interesting report about Envronmental issues, as well the legislation he passed that puts Texas as the leading state for Wind -generated sustainable electricity, very interesting.

No one candidate in our out of office is going to solve the environmental problems of our world or country, but it sure is good to give a lot of lip service to it during an election year - both sides do this. I think the big picture may be more important here when we're talking about the environment, one thing leads to another.......we don't want corporate interests involved, but we all have to work somewhere, and we all buy the products that keep them all in business, this cycle isn't going to end anytime soon - regardless of who you vote for.

This earth is not eternal, but your soul is. A sobering thought even if you believe in "nothing". We are not here by mistake and our actions will be accounted for one day. Some here may not believe this at all, and it may make them angry to have it discussed, and that's OK, humans often get angry at what they don't understand - I know I do.

For now, the A.T. is a wonderful place to spend time, enjoy the creation around you, and have precious time alone with your own thoughts. I think all of those who spend time watching TV, filling your head with the ads from huge corps. and buying into the hype of the current election are, well - you're just one more rat following the pied piper. The media in this country is not about truth, it's about numbers. I hope when I go out again for a week or so on the AT, I'm not bombarded by political messages in the registers - from either side. Just want to enjoy the hike!

You guys all bring up really great points. It's nice to hear both sides, I bet there are some things about both sides we don't know about, but our votes come election day are not going to make the world a happy, clean-air environment anytime soon:)

Does anyone have a resource on lands available specifically near the AT. or land/home purchases that would benefit the AT or it's supporters?

Peep
08-15-2004, 20:14
Hey Mountaindew - I think we're getting knee deep in rhetoric twisting. You're starting to cut everyone's statements into pieces and analyzing them. Why so defensive? Geeeeesh. Just when the debate is going good the words start getting analyzed one by one and it gets all f###ed up. This started out as an awesome thread with reeeally intelligent comments...

It's great to have a spirited debate...and I get into hearing all the opinions, but it's starting to get nasty. :datz They do this over at the Trail Journal site. I thought it was more civil and mature over here.
Peep

Connie
08-15-2004, 21:25
Post modern deconstruction ..

I can spot that rhetoric, easily, having received a scholarship at the San Francisco Art Institute degree-mill and hotbed of marxist and communist (no difference, really) hard-core socialist rhetoric ..for the "elites".

Tear down. not build up. don't offer anything ..worthwhile ..offer nothing.

Take what you have got ..your freedom, your "sanctuaries" of happiness, and of a natural life: like John Muir and "his" sequoias ..I have stood in a "grove" of magnificent mature redwoods, still remaining in Northern California.

I felt I was inside a cathedral. I was standing in "nature God made".

I stood taller. I found myself taller, there.

It was a mature Redwood grove reasonably near a highway, and, I couldn't believe what I felt.

My "higher self" as the californian pop-religionist's say, is somehow, also, me.

Practically no one will ever realize anything like that, living in the "ticky tacky little houses all in a row" "little boxes". Malvina Reynolds was writing about the little houses all in a row on the hillsides of Daly City, CA, of course. Nothing "more".

Hikers are not stupid ill-educated louts.

Many of us "get out there" because we know we need "re-creation" ..at frequent doses.

I am reasonably certain the AT trail supporters, through the decades, really know what a "walk in nature" is.

weary
08-15-2004, 21:51
Post modern deconstruction ..

I can spot that rhetoric, easily, having received a scholarship at the San Francisco Art Institute degree-mill and hotbed of marxist and communist (no difference, really) hard-core socialist rhetoric ..for the "elites".

Tear down. not build up. don't offer anything ..worthwhile ..offer nothing.

Take what you have got ..your freedom, your "sanctuaries" of happiness, and of a natural life: like John Muir and "his" sequoias ..I have stood in a "grove" of magnificent mature redwoods, still remaining in Northern California.

I felt I was inside a cathedral. I was standing in "nature God made".

I stood taller. I found myself taller, there.

It was a mature Redwood grove reasonably near a highway, and, I couldn't believe what I felt.

My "higher self" as the californian pop-religionist's say, is somehow, also, me.

Practically no one will ever realize anything like that, living in the "ticky tacky little houses all in a row" "little boxes". Malvina Reynolds was writing about the little houses all in a row on the hillsides of Daly City, CA, of course. Nothing "more".

Hikers are not stupid ill-educated louts.

Many of us "get out there" because we know we need "re-creation" ..at frequent doses.

I am reasonably certain the AT trail supporters, through the decades, really know what a "walk in nature" is.

Maybe, I'm truly getting old. But I have no idea which side Connie is on. I agree there are a lot of folks out their who can speak the rhetoric without much knowledge of the history and facts behind their words.

But the red woods -- and the trail for that matter -- exists because those of us that are often falsely called marxists and communists -- fought to preserve them.

Perhaps the poster is right. The scholarship was a fraud. Though free frauds are better than the expensive kind.

Weary

eyahiker
08-15-2004, 21:53
Yeah, she lost me.

Tha Wookie
08-16-2004, 01:29
Brilliant Connie... well done!

eyahiker
08-16-2004, 01:32
Right.


The emperor's new clothes.

Dudeboard
08-16-2004, 01:34
Wookie are you and I.M. still on the coast trail? Read your post earlier about catching some waves on the Northcoast. Hope you didn't break your head on a rock!

Mountain Dew
08-16-2004, 02:28
Willk ... I don't think my two examples exclude Bush from being a liberal by themselves. If you read the very next sentence..."and has countless other classic conservative platforms upon which he stands " ... then you would have realized this fact. I didn't really have to defend Bush at all on this argument. To think he is a liberal is to have a mental illness. I merely threw that out there as "change" to quiet BlueWacko like a business man would a homeless person that won't stop bugging him.

Eyahiker + well informed opinions + facts with examples > (is greater than symbol) liberals + lies + communist ideas + no morals

SLAM DUNK Eyahiker.

Professor Bluewacko, Thanks for your recent lesson that Christianity isn't a political phylosophy. hahaaaa You nutbag. When have I said a word about Christianity being a phylosophy ? I haven't ! I think my logic and truth have dumbfounded your simple mind into submission at this point. And trust me, I understood exactly what you attempted to say. I was in junior high at one time as well. Try again if I haven't caused you to totally meltdown.

Weary, Well done !!! Good enough of an example I suppose. I knew that you'd come up with an example for me. Governor Weary ....of the Maine A.T. that is !

Peep, I realize some people can't take the fact that somebody might break down what they say and expose a few things. Understandable ! As far as Trail Journals goes...... I rarely go there nor care to so your reference to it is wasted.

DudeBoard.... I love that trail name.
---------------------------------------------------
I just realized that the liberals on WB do the same thing that they did on the trail. START a conversation with bashing Bush, conservatives, etc. without regard to others views. When they get mentally worked by the other side they blam everybody but them for starting the conversation and want to end it asap. Pretty humerous.... :sun

Pencil Pusher
08-16-2004, 03:05
I'm getting 'mentally worked' just looking at these long posts. I didn't read most of them and doubt I missed much. Man I'm so glad I don't have a tv. I don't have to watch the clowns do their pissing contests. November will come soon enough and then we'll find out which clown is going to lead this three ring circus.

Oh hey, it's midnight. Time to catch some z's. Iceman said it well in another thread, no point in arguing this stuff too much, we're all sorta set in our ways on what we believe about these serious topics. Lets talk about fertile women with child-bearing hips instead.

Jaybird
08-16-2004, 07:11
Have any of the Appalachian Trail veterans noticed a change in the "spirit" or "feeling" of the trail during past wars? A hard issue to quantify, but thought it might have relevance in 2004.



i've section-hiked the A.T. for 3 years now & been hiking since the early 1970s around the country (TN,VA,GA,KY,AZ,WY,CA,ME,NH,VT) & due to the sheer numbers of hikers now...compared to the 70s & 80s...there probably is a different "spirit" or "feeling" to the trail atmosphere....i, personally, dont think it has anything to do with 9/11.

The trail has always been there...Benton McKaye & pioneers like Earl Shaffer "uncovered" it.

eyahiker
08-16-2004, 07:31
The trail has always been there...Benton McKaye & pioneers like Earl Shaffer "uncovered" it.Jaybird, I think you have something here. I'll have to agree. ( way to go on getting back on topic as well) Thankful it is here and looking forward to the next time out :)

Thanks Dew.

Surfs up here on the EC, 'cane residuals, I'm outta here.

Blue Jay
08-16-2004, 08:16
Willk ... I don't think my two examples exclude Bush from being a liberal by themselves. If you read the very next sentence..."and has countless other classic conservative platforms upon which he stands " ... then you would have realized this fact.

Hudson, still can't come up with something, what a surprise. I recently found out that one in twelve federal employees works for Homeland Security and no, this does not count the military. Therefore George incressed the number of employees by a huge percentage. A very clear liberal activity. Meanwhile CDC publications, which I can quote if you wish, indicate there is no state that has a lab that can handle ANY type of biological or chemical attack. Therefore he has spent this money for nothing. Liberal all the way, just like you. Take the silver spoon out of your mouth and read something other than Spiderman.

smokymtnsteve
08-16-2004, 09:22
But the red woods -- and the trail for that matter -- exists because those of us that are often falsely called marxists and communists -- fought to preserve them.

Weary


Arise ye prisoners of starvation
Arise ye wrecthed of the earth
for JUSTICE thunders comdemnation
a BETTER world's in birth!

:sun :banana :sun :banana :sun :banana

Mountain Dew
08-17-2004, 03:39
Professor Bluewacko... Why do you continue to think that me giving you political lessons will do you any good ? Take your political comments to another website or thread. You have obviously drafted to one end of the political spectrum or the other and fallen off. I see by your comments that you are also against the Homeland Security Agency. WOW ! Try leaving comments or questions I leave for others to them. You are having enough trouble handling the ones I leave for you. Try harder or go away...you are starting to bore me simpleton.

Noggin
08-17-2004, 05:19
This Mountain Dew must have fallen off a rock and knocked his noggin.

Blue Jay
08-17-2004, 07:47
Hudson, I like trying to teach you something, but as the old saying goes "Never try and teach a pig to sing, you waste your time and annoy the pig". Happily I like wasting my time. :banana
Actually homeland security is a great idea, too bad Bush has scamed you into thinking ANYTHING has been accomplished with the billions he has spent.
Once again, not a single lab in any state can test for chemical or Biological weapons, let alone do anything about it. Like our power grid, NOTHING has been done. I know you are not the only fool, but you are my favorite.

eyahiker
08-17-2004, 08:41
with the billions he has spent.
Ummmmm. Actually Billions have NOT been spent, that is primary root of the issue:)

Blue Jay
08-17-2004, 08:56
Ummmmm. Actually Billions have NOT been spent, that is primary root of the issue:)

You are correct, it is only millions. I stand corrected.

Chappy
08-17-2004, 09:39
Actually homeland security is a great idea, too bad Bush has scamed you into thinking ANYTHING has been accomplished with the billions he has spent.

BJ: Are you serious when you say NOTHING has been accomplished in homeland security? :confused:

smokymtnsteve
08-17-2004, 09:45
BJ: Are you serious when you say NOTHING has been accomplished in homeland security? :confused:

of course something has been acccomplished...we have added another layer of government bureaucracy. :rolleyes:

btw..what is the color for today?

Chappy
08-17-2004, 10:00
of course something has been acccomplished...we have added another layer of government bureaucracy. :rolleyes:

btw..what is the color for today?

Wow...Now you even answer for BJ. I guess the color is "rainbow."

smokymtnsteve
08-17-2004, 10:02
rainbow???

wow! that is one colorful govt. dept. :jump

Blue Jay
08-17-2004, 10:16
BJ: Are you serious when you say NOTHING has been accomplished in homeland security? :confused:

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I hope I am wrong. I subscribe to both "left and right" (as if these distinctions have meaning anymore now that conservatism is dead) publications. Also I have access to government publications both on line and hard copies at work. Yes, we have a few more Rent-A-Cops strip searching old ladies as they get on airplanes, but a friend of mine just got a job cleaning airplanes with no back ground check. No improvement there.

Actually with the technical state of genetic sequencing all it would take is a talented, insane. biochemist to get some Ebola. Obtain a chemical suit online, go to the next outbreak, there is no security in Africa, get some DNA.
Just a plane ticket and balls. Obtain a position in any commercial or public health genetics lab. Combine the DNA with the common cold, let it loose. Obviously, this is a massive simplification and common knowledge in the scientific community. It's no longer a question of if, but a question of when.

Now, you ask, what would cause a human to do such a thing, as he or she would most likely be killing themselves. A good biodefence would be to stop killing people around the world "by accident" hoping you won't hit that one man, woman or child of that biochemist. Another good one would be to stop producing weapons and giving them to Iraq (#1 after Israel in the 80s), Columbia (completely ineffective drug war) and every other country filled with biochemists who now hate us. Another good one would be to make sure labs in this country could actually detect a bioweapon. For a tiny percent of what we have spent "liberating" Iraq we could have set up state labs. Nah, there are no opportunities for kick backs there. Our enemy is not external terrorists, it's internal democrats and republicans. They are going to kill us for profit.

eyahiker
08-17-2004, 10:20
Gee, thats interesting..........In our family business, travel is close to 100K air miles a year, .25 of that to Europe - i can assure you, LOTS is being done, almost to the point of nuisance at times. Even on the business end of things here as well.

Don't believe the hype lib media is pushing - it's just another lie, like every commercial venture out there - we all want your $$ - and that's a fact.

Blue JAY: Actually, you were right about the BILLIONS, I was wrong. Here's some of your $$ at work:

Fifty U.S. cities are in the process of receiving a total of $2.9 billion
in federal funding for homeland defense through the Department of Homeland
Security's Urban Area Security Initiative (UASI). Each city is earmarked to
receive anywhere from $6.2 million to almost $50 million each for Homeland
Security equipment and training, which must be spent by the end of 2004 or
they will lose access to these funds.
Decisions are being made on a local level within each of these UASI cities
as to how to properly protect their communities from a chemical, biological or
radiological incident. Each city typically creates a committee that includes
the local emergency management director, city police chiefs and county
sheriffs, fire department chief, Hazmat specialists, city or county safety
directors and political appointees.
What most citizens don't realize is that these critical decisions
about protecting their community against another terrorist attack are being
made with taxpayers' money -- their money," Secure Product Creations president James Noe said. "Homeland Security decisions are being made by an elected and hopefully enlightened few for the benefit of many citizens and First Responders, those essential personnel, law enforcement, firefighters and other emergency services, who are the first on the scene to secure it and safely evacuate others."

:clap
I'm glad they're leaving the choices with the local commity emergency personell, and not a committee somewhere..........

Chappy
08-17-2004, 10:40
Blue Jay: Believe it or not...but I agree with you about bioterrorism. We've much to do to improve or it's inevitable we will be hit. However, I also believe your dislike for President Bush has really blurred the way you view our homeland defense. Surely you'll agree we've made progress.

Question for you...how do you feel about the Patriot Act?

Blue Jay
08-17-2004, 11:04
Blue JAY: Fifty U.S. cities are in the process of receiving a total of $2.9 billion
in federal funding for homeland defense through the Department of Homeland
Security's Urban Area Security Initiative (UASI). Each city is earmarked to
receive anywhere from $6.2 million to almost $50 million each for Homeland
Security equipment and training, which must be spent by the end of 2004 or
they will lose access to these funds.
Decisions are being made on a local level within each of these UASI cities
as to how to properly protect their communities from a chemical, biological or
radiological incident. Each city typically creates a committee that includes
the local emergency management director, city police chiefs and county
sheriffs, fire department chief, Hazmat specialists, city or county safety
directors and political appointees.

I didn't say the money was not being spent, just that it was ineffectual. Yes, the police and fire companies will have hazmat suits. So while we are dying they can stack up the bodies. All that money is for after the fact. I'm sure we will be provided with all the Saran Wrap we can handle. This, like the war is a scam, an effective way to divert the attention of the public so they can keep sucking up the money. The only real security is lowering the threat of Bioattack. In this regard this money is wasted.

eyahiker
08-17-2004, 11:10
No matter who is in office, your money will be spent in ways you don't want it to. Don't believe the hype.


Hope you have a great weekend - I'm heading up to VA for the weekend:D

Blue Jay
08-17-2004, 11:18
Blue Jay: Believe it or not...but I agree with you about bioterrorism. We've much to do to improve or it's inevitable we will be hit. However, I also believe your dislike for President Bush has really blurred the way you view our homeland defense. Surely you'll agree we've made progress.

Question for you...how do you feel about the Patriot Act?

Kerry is just as bad. The only reason I'm going to try and stop gagging and vote for him (my first and hopefully last Democratic vote) is that he will make a less efficient Hitler. The Patriot Act is clearly a direct attack on the Constitution and another effective diversion. Already there are US citizens who are being held without trial and with out legal council in direct violation of the Constitution. I know we have a history of this type of atrocity such as Japanese Citizens in Concenteration Camps during WW2. Germany went after the Jews, we are using the Muslims this time, it works for awhile. The truth will win.

Blue Jay
08-17-2004, 11:28
No matter who is in office, your money will be spent in ways you don't want it to. Don't believe the hype.

What hype? The media is neither liberal nor conservative, don't be like Hudson. The media is corporate, the worst of both. They are immoral and immortal. All they care about is money, nothing else. What is good for the corporation be it war, taxation from the public directly into their pockets, crushing the working class, transferring American jobs to foreign sweatshops, whatever they can scam us into believing, is their total agenda. The last American noncorporate media went down a few years ago. Like Germany we need a Radiofree America.

eyahiker
08-17-2004, 11:33
Kerry is just as bad. The only reason I'm going to try and stop gagging and vote for him (my first and hopefully last Democratic vote) is that he will make a less efficient Hitler. The Patriot Act is clearly a direct attack on the Constitution and another effective diversion. Already there are US citizens who are being held without trial and with out legal council in direct violation of the Constitution. I know we have a history of this type of atrocity such as Japanese Citizens in Concenteration Camps during WW2. Germany went after the Jews, we are using the Muslims this time, it works for awhile. The truth will win.
Blue Jay, I think you are way more intelligent than this. Kerry laughs in the face of morals, quotes scripture to fight against a Scripture reading president, can not take a stand on abortion ( which is murder at it's finest, Hitler helped promote it BTW), he can't take a stand on homosexual marriage - talk about the constitution being changed - the courts in this country have run so far astray it isn't even funny. Has already voted 350 times to raise taxes, voted for the war in Iraq, but then voted against funding. I have to vote for someone who takes a stand on moral absolutes. War is bad, and it has it's flip side as everything else. All of us in have benefitted from the wars that have gone before - they aren't going to stop, no matter how many folks protest them. U.S. Fiscal History has also proven to us as a fact, that War ups the economy after it's all said and done.

I think you should vote your heart, no problem with that. But there are more important issues at stake other than some suspected terrorists being held without legal council. Why do folks want to take pity on people who don't even pay taxes or want to be here? I don't get it. I guess its the same train of thought that leads to Victims of violent crimes being able to be sued by those who were the perps in the first place, a sickening twist of the law and our constitution, happens every day.

As for moral issues, I'm glad I had a mom and dad, I'm thankful I was born. I'd like the environment saved for future generations - (if we'd only let them be born into this world). I wonder how many cool hiking partners and best friends are missing from our lives............LOTS. Moral issues are tops on my list when I go to vote. Thanks for listening, I'll step down from my box now.

Lone Wolf
08-17-2004, 11:34
YAY eyahiker! :clap :clap

eyahiker
08-17-2004, 11:35
Thanks L Wolf. I know where you stand as well.;)

Flush the Johns.

eyahiker
08-17-2004, 11:49
What hype? The media is neither liberal nor conservative,
Sorry, I don't belive this. The media has, and always will lean left. Clinton lied to our faces on national TV, and we still have to see his face pushing candidates as if he has some character. He did, however do some cool stuff for the environment. Now, the media is pushing JK to the best of their ability, read the newspapers, the OpEds are so way left it isn't even funny.

You are correct about corp/money/advertising thing. So why do you watch TV? It's one thing to be informed, it's another to be well misinformed. Right now, there are only about 29 corporations, and their subcorps/comglomerates, that have the $$ to pay for advertising during prime time - who do you think controls the content of the shows? The nice men who sit behind the scenes and write them? Not a chance, everything from product to moral and legal agendas are being pushed right before your eyes.

Don't take my word for it. May I suggest a VERY liberal book ( two actually), written by a Democrat for your reading pleasure and awareness? The second book 'in the absence of the sacred" is the best, and really puts the first book about TV into this second work, in a nutshell.

Gerry Mander / Four Arguements for the Elimination of Television
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0688082742/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-4115472-5054327#reader-link (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0688082742/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-4115472-5054327#reader-link)
Gerry Mander / In the Absence of the Sacred; The failure of technology and the decimation of the Indian Nations.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0871565099/ref=pd_sim_books_3/104-4115472-5054327?v=glance&s=books (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0871565099/ref=pd_sim_books_3/104-4115472-5054327?v=glance&s=books)
Gerry Mander / The case against the global economy
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0871568659/104-4115472-5054327?v=glance (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0871568659/104-4115472-5054327?v=glance)

Some pertinent articles about these books:
http://www.personal.usyd.edu.au/~apert/mander.htm

Dances with Mice
08-17-2004, 12:16
Has anybody ever changed their vote because of an Internet discussion board?

Let's see some hands. Anybody?

Right. Thought so. Carry on.

eyahiker
08-17-2004, 12:18
You'd be surprized..............

this is even MORE intimate than TV, and TV works just fine.:-?

smokymtnsteve
08-17-2004, 12:20
You'd be surprized..............

this is even MORE intimate than TV, and TV works just fine.:-?


your correct ..I'm becoming more liberal all the time the more I read.

and I'm a conservative!

eyahiker
08-17-2004, 12:21
Hmmmmmmm. Have you seen a doctor about this problem?:-?

smokymtnsteve
08-17-2004, 12:24
Hmmmmmmm. Have you seen a doctor about this problem?:-?

Not a problem...

GWBUSH is no conservative. listen to him sometime.

Lone Wolf
08-17-2004, 12:26
I fixin to write a check to the DNC as we speak. Help me!

smokymtnsteve
08-17-2004, 12:27
I fixin to write a check to the DNC as we speak. Help me!


Help is on the Way!

write neatly and make sure to remember to sign your legal name. :D

eyahiker
08-17-2004, 12:28
SMST - it's cool;)

L. Wolf - NO! don't do it! Buy something from HD instead! Buy AMERICAN LOL

eyahiker
08-17-2004, 12:30
Sounds like Elwood needs some money, maybe you should send it to him instead, better spent:cool:

Blue Jay
08-17-2004, 12:56
Blue Jay, I think you are way more intelligent than this. Kerry laughs in the face of morals, quotes scripture to fight against a Scripture reading president,........Moral issues are tops on my list when I go to vote.

Scripture READING president. If moral issues are tops, I'm sorry but in American elections there are no morals. It is blasphemy to call either one a Christian.

Chappy
08-17-2004, 13:49
Kerry is just as bad. The only reason I'm going to try and stop gagging and vote for him (my first and hopefully last Democratic vote) is that he will make a less efficient Hitler.

I agree with you again! Kerry will be less efficient. :)

sgtjinx
08-17-2004, 15:03
What is the difference between Jane Fonda, John Kerry and George W. Bush?

Jane Fonda and John Kerry went to Vietnam!!!

George W. Bush didn't!!

Who came back to the United States and talked ***** about the troops?

Jane Fonda and John Kerry did!!!

George W. Bush didn't!!


:D :D :D :D

Rain Man
08-17-2004, 15:11
George W. Bush didn't!!

George W. Bush didn't!!

Are you trying to say George took the cowardly, easy way out both times???

:jump

copythat
08-17-2004, 18:14
If everyone's so #*$& opposed to injecting politics into AT threads ... WHY HAVEN'T WE SHUT UP YET????!!!!! Five pages of posts???!!! Could it be because WE CAN'T HELP IT?



(The opinons expressed above DEFINITELY do not represent those of anyone else in the world. After all, we're all individuals. Or, as Mark Twain said: "It's the difference of opinion that makes a horse race.")

SavageLlama
08-17-2004, 19:59
I'd like the environment saved for future generations If you want to save the environment than you sure as hell shouldn't be voting Republican. Teddy Roosevelt is long gone, my friend.

The Bush administration has been anything but pro-environment. Hell, if trees could vote, Bush would be long gone.

Mountain Dew
08-18-2004, 03:35
Eyahiker.... SLAM DUNK on the heads of liberals once again. I'll help you in your election campaign if you wish.

Blue Wacko Nice little pig story about me not being able to learn, BUT didn't I just tell you the same thing about yourself in the previous post ? Very original there....

Blue Wacko , "I know we have a history of this type of atrocity such as Japanese Citizens in Concenteration Camps during WW2. Germany went after the Jews, we are using the Muslims this time, it works for awhile. The truth will win." ... They were not called nor considered to be concentration camps. I'd like to see you tell a Jew that muslims in America are being treated like the Jews were. They were called internment camps. Recently a book was written about those camps. The title is something like ..." A reason for internment". The author talks about how we had very strong evidence that the Japanese had tons of spy's over here already. These spy's were sending pictures of U.S. landmarks to asia shortly after Pearl Harbor. Does that ring a "modern day " bell ? This is a fact. Before you label me anything for agreeing with this book I'll inform you that the author is an American or as liberals like to say Japanese-American. I can't believe you compare the Jews to the modern day muslims. I need make no further comment about that comparison as I know you stand alone. VERY ! Well wait.... I know an dictator of Iraq that would agree with you. Congrats. :bse

Blue Wacko, "What hype? The media is neither liberal nor conservative, " --- evidence enough for the new trail name. :clap

Sgt. Jinx... And you didn't even go into any detail about how Jane Fonda exposed the POW's to the enemy for passing her notes in secret. I am so amazed when I hear of people ( not you Sgt. Jinx) that have no clue that she actually betrayed our pow's like that. And to think that Kerry once went to rally's where they both spoke to the crowd in order to increase the publics hatred for America.

boulder
08-18-2004, 06:46
At the risk of injecting fact into this rather odd and rambling discussion. Jane Fonda never passed any notes from US POWs to the Vietnamese. Not all that is written in books, or found on web sites is correct. This claim re:Fonda is repeated ad nauseam, but is not true according to the guys she allegedly betrayed.

Blue Jay
08-18-2004, 07:46
Hudson, I never compared the atrocities that we have done to the Jews and the Japanese and the Muslims. They are each unique and each one you have a paranoid justification for. I know you misrepresent everything anyone says to you but this one is blatant. Please do not stop singing.

Blue Jay
08-18-2004, 07:50
At the risk of injecting fact into this rather odd and rambling discussion. Jane Fonda never passed any notes from US POWs to the Vietnamese. Not all that is written in books, or found on web sites is correct. This claim re:Fonda is repeated ad nauseam, but is not true according to the guys she allegedly betrayed.

Good luck Boulder. Sgt Rock and I have tried many times to insert facts talking with Hudson, maybe it will work for you.

SGT Rock
08-18-2004, 09:30
Well unfortunately media reporting these days (except for a few sources) have about the same standard of proof as church gossip. Instead of debunking a factoid with real fact, they just get repeated ad nauseum until it is an accepted factoid to people despite lack of any evidence. Accusation these days is enough for anyone to chime in and news outlets to carry a story. Think of the old "October Supprise Story from the early 90s" where the candidate Regan supposedly got on an SR-71 and flew to Iran in 1980 to bargin with the Ayatolla to hold hostages until after he was elected. A total fairy story, but it was in fact carrried and repeated and some even tried to get an independant investigator. Never mind that as a candidate he could never have ordered that, never mind that an SR71 ain't got that kind of seating, never mind a bunch of other facts that could make it impossible.

This isn't restricted to just "liberals" or "conservatives" both sides play the game just as poorly. I was watching CSPAN the other day and they were airing an old 1971 Dick Cavet show where both sides actually talked and presented facts presenting letters and articles - entirely. Selected bites were actually debunked in toto by the other side being allowed to read or present the entire statement in contex (novel concept these days). These days you would have both sides yelling over the top of each other and some "news person" egging the fight on.

I consider myself conservative, but I do not ever align myself with any one party anymore because I have seen enough in my life to know that they are both full of **** when they want to be. And both will act innocent while doing so.

Blue Jay
08-18-2004, 09:46
Actually there is one last honest media source. That is the National Enquirer.
They are proud to openly state that they make up at least 80% of every issue. You are spoon fed, every single day, exactly what the corporations want you to believe. They are not liberal or conservative, they play both sides against the middle. It's very effective, just listen to Hudson. He's a True Believer, a great book. Was it Eric Hoffer that wrote that one?

Lone Wolf
08-18-2004, 09:57
I have a book "Aid and Comfort" Jane Fonda in North Vietnam, written by Mark Holzer and Erika Holzer. Very interesting read. Fonda is one treasonous bitch. She shoulda faced a firing squad.

Youngblood
08-18-2004, 10:06
Well unfortunately media reporting these days (except for a few sources) have about the same standard of proof as church gossip. Instead of debunking a factoid with real fact, they just get repeated ad nauseum until it is an accepted factoid to people despite lack of any evidence. Accusation these days is enough for anyone to chime in and news outlets to carry a story. Think of the old "October Supprise Story from the early 90s" where the candidate Regan supposedly got on an SR-71 and flew to Iran in 1980 to bargin with the Ayatolla to hold hostages until after he was elected. A total fairy story, but it was in fact carrried and repeated and some even tried to get an independant investigator. Never mind that as a candidate he could never have ordered that, never mind that an SR71 ain't got that kind of seating, never mind a bunch of other facts that could make it impossible.

This isn't restricted to just "liberals" or "conservatives" both sides play the game just as poorly. I was watching CSPAN the other day and they were airing an old 1971 Dick Cavet show where both sides actually talked and presented facts presenting letters and articles - entirely. Selected bites were actually debunked in toto by the other side being allowed to read or present the entire statement in contex (novel concept these days). These days you would have both sides yelling over the top of each other and some "news person" egging the fight on.

I consider myself conservative, but I do not ever align myself with any one party anymore because I have seen enough in my life to know that they are both full of **** when they want to be. And both will act innocent while doing so.

Very well said Sarge. Somewhere along the way in American politics, the 'win at all cost' philosophy seems to allow for a suspension of 'truth, honesty and integity'. It sometimes seems to happen often enough that it is difficult to believe much of anything and it sure gets old hearing how 'awful, despicable and uncarring' each polical candidate is. I think at some point most of us get numb to it and just decide to 'hear what we want to hear, see what we want to see and believe what we want to believe' without a whole lot of regard to how things really are because we don't have a way to find out how things really are. I think this has probably always gone on to some degree but that it is getting overbearing with our modern communications apartatus.

Youngblood

weary
08-18-2004, 12:19
Well unfortunately media reporting these days (except for a few sources) have about the same standard of proof as church gossip. .

The public essentially gets the media it wants -- and deserves. If people didn't watch the shouting matches on tv they wouldn't be on the air.

The best and most complete broadcast news is on public radio. The worst is FOX television. The major network evening news is too incomplete and too superficial to be worth watching. Public broadcasting's Lehre (sp) is pretty fair.

Among the newspapers by far the best is the Wall Street Journal -- the news pages anyway. The Journal's editorials and columnists are almost uniformly dumb. I don't have any stock investments, but I subscribe to the Journal as the most complete source of important national and world news currently available.

I get the newspaper where I used to work for free -- and am saddened by how poor it has become. I buy the local paper published two towns over, but rarely do much more than glance at it. Again, it's approach to the local news is mostly superficial.

I also buy the New York Times on Sundays and on Tuesdays. The latter is for its science section, which is pretty good. Sunday for the Sunday magazine, and its news of the week in review and for the book reviews.

Despite the naysayers on this list, the Times remains a great newspaper and works hard at getting better. The paper's recent spate of self examination will be helpful in the long run. It's simply not true, despite the claims, that its news stories are mostly opinion pieces. I don't buy it every day mostly because the Journal gives me what I need in a form that I find easier to use.

Weary

SGT Rock
08-18-2004, 12:49
The public essentially gets the media it wants -- and deserves. If people didn't watch the shouting matches on tv they wouldn't be on the air.

The best and most complete broadcast news is on public radio. The worst is FOX television. The major network evening news is too incomplete and too superficial to be worth watching. Public broadcasting's Lehre (sp) is pretty fair.

That is about what I experienced from the viewpoint of sitting in Iraq. Fox News routinely sensationalized stuff that would leave us scratching our heads and their talking head shows, especially the "No Spin Zone" was the worst examples of something passing for reporting I have seen in years. I didn't get to hear NPR too often, and usually that was because the BBC rebroadcast something NPR had on. But we did get some imbeds from the Christian Science Monitor. I have never read the paper (I only assume they write a paper since I regularly hear them on NPR) but the articles I read from the imbed that were sent over to me from stuff printed on the internet was always EXACTLY on the money for what was going on in my zone - no spin, conjecture, editorial, just facts and observations. I have often heard the Public Broadcasting Networks and NPR accused of being very liberaly bent - and maybe the editorials are, but the reporting I have seen based on first hand comparison of news marks them as the more thoughough and even news bodies out there, and I would have to say FOX is about the worst.

BTW, doesn't the same company own FOX and the Enquirer. :confused:

MOWGLI
08-18-2004, 12:55
Despite the naysayers on this list, the Times remains a great newspaper and works hard at getting better. The paper's recent spate of self examination will be helpful in the long run. It's simply not true, despite the claims, that its news stories are mostly opinion pieces.
Weary

Anyone who thinks the Times is loaded with opinion pieces knows nothing about journalism. I travel fairly frequently, and am a newspaper junkie. I read just about any newspaper I can get my hands on. I also listen to talk radio across the political spectrum. Not just stuff that reinforces my opinions.

IMO, the NY Times is the best newspaper in America - hands down. Yes, their editorial page leans left. I usually don't read their editorials anyway. If y'all don't read it 'cause O'Reilly or Limbaugh says its liberal, that is your loss. In that case, the comics page is probably better suited for your taste anyway.

www.nytimes.com is my home page, and I pick up the paper here in Chattanooga 3-4 times a week. Like Weary, I like Tuesday & Sunday best. If you want to stay informed, I suggest you check in with the Times frequently and regularly.

IMO, the worst paper in America is the NY Post. They have a pretty good sports section though.

sgtjinx
08-18-2004, 12:59
Are you trying to say George took the cowardly, easy way out both times???

:jump
At lest he was in some kind of service!! Not like Hillery and her wife!!!! :bse

Sgt Jinx

Disabled Vet

ripple
08-18-2004, 13:00
Weary, no wonder why you babble all the leftist propaganda, b/c that is all you read and listen and watch. Yeah NY Times, real quality stuff there. Their science is slanted, their editorals are slanted and their reporters also have their own adgenda. Open your eyes, stop thinking w/ emotion, and try using logic.

sgtjinx
08-18-2004, 13:14
Eyahiker.... SLAM DUNK on the heads of liberals once again. I'll help you in your election campaign if you wish.

Blue Wacko Nice little pig story about me not being able to learn, BUT didn't I just tell you the same thing about yourself in the previous post ? Very original there....

Blue Wacko , "I know we have a history of this type of atrocity such as Japanese Citizens in Concenteration Camps during WW2. Germany went after the Jews, we are using the Muslims this time, it works for awhile. The truth will win." ... They were not called nor considered to be concentration camps. I'd like to see you tell a Jew that muslims in America are being treated like the Jews were. They were called internment camps. Recently a book was written about those camps. The title is something like ..." A reason for internment". The author talks about how we had very strong evidence that the Japanese had tons of spy's over here already. These spy's were sending pictures of U.S. landmarks to asia shortly after Pearl Harbor. Does that ring a "modern day " bell ? This is a fact. Before you label me anything for agreeing with this book I'll inform you that the author is an American or as liberals like to say Japanese-American. I can't believe you compare the Jews to the modern day muslims. I need make no further comment about that comparison as I know you stand alone. VERY ! Well wait.... I know an dictator of Iraq that would agree with you. Congrats. :bse

Blue Wacko, "What hype? The media is neither liberal nor conservative, " --- evidence enough for the new trail name. :clap

Sgt. Jinx... And you didn't even go into any detail about how Jane Fonda exposed the POW's to the enemy for passing her notes in secret. I am so amazed when I hear of people ( not you Sgt. Jinx) that have no clue that she actually betrayed our pow's like that. And to think that Kerry once went to rally's where they both spoke to the crowd in order to increase the publics hatred for America.
I would have gone in to detail but everyone knows about her. Taking pictures of herself on the anti-aircraft guns that was used to shoot down AMERICAN planes. Turning in Col. Rowe of the Special Forces to the V.C.

She did some good. (bit*h) Bringing back micodot messages for the CIA on letters. That helped on the Son Tay raid in 1970. :clap

MOWGLI
08-18-2004, 13:17
Weary, no wonder why you babble all the leftist propaganda, b/c that is all you read and listen and watch. Yeah NY Times, real quality stuff there. Their science is slanted, their editorals are slanted and their reporters also have their own adgenda. Open your eyes, stop thinking w/ emotion, and try using logic.

Isn't this the same Ripple that suggested that George Soros founded Moveon.org?


Moveon is full of lies. They make illegal campaign contributions. It was founded by a billionare who has his own agenda.

Where do you get your unslanted & unbiased news & information from? I hope it's a better source than where you got the above inaccurate information. FYI, Soros is a MAJOR contributor to Moveon, but did not found the organization.

Blue Jay
08-18-2004, 13:39
I have a book "Aid and Comfort" Jane Fonda in North Vietnam, written by Mark Holzer and Erika Holzer. Very interesting read. Fonda is one treasonous bitch. She shoulda faced a firing squad.

The firing squad would have to be really busy as hundreds of treasonous Democrats and Republicans killed thousands of Americans and Asians in Vietnam for absolutely nothing. Get over Jane will you, and face the hard fact that we're still killing and dying for nothing.

ripple
08-18-2004, 13:41
Excuse me, I do stand corrected. He did not found the org. He pretty much got it off the ground with the millions he gave them. Soros and Peter Lewis both have pledge millions into. Soros says he is a big advocate of campaign finance reform, so he uses moveon to put his "soft money" into the mix. Wether he founded it or not he does have his own adgenda.

MOWGLI
08-18-2004, 13:46
Excuse me, I do stand corrected. He did not found the org. He pretty much got it off the ground with the millions he gave them. Soros and Peter Lewis both have pledge millions into. Soros says he is a big advocate of campaign finance reform, so he uses moveon to put his "soft money" into the mix. Wether he founded it or not he does have his own adgenda.


Where do you get your unbiased news from Ripple?

ripple
08-18-2004, 13:57
Oh yes sorry forgot that part.

I watch and read many different new sources. From CNN, ABC, Fox, Newsmax, accuracy in media, Wall St Jrl, etc etc. Every news is bias and slanted, some more then others. I read/listen to as many as I can and make up my own mind. I don't let Peter Jennings or Bill O Rielly make my mind up for me. I will listen and read as much as I can to be informed. I am not going to quote the percentage b/c I do not remember the exact # but majority of people in the news are democracts so most news is slanted left. Sorry again about the Soros founding comment, but if it wasn't for him and Lewis moveon would not be around.

MOWGLI
08-18-2004, 14:05
Oh yes sorry forgot that part.

I watch and read many different new sources. From CNN, ABC, Fox, Newsmax, accuracy in media, Wall St Jrl, etc etc. Every news is bias and slanted, some more then others. I read/listen to as many as I can and make up my own mind. I don't let Peter Jennings or Bill O Rielly make my mind up for me. I will listen and read as much as I can to be informed. I am not going to quote the percentage b/c I do not remember the exact # but majority of people in the news are democracts so most news is slanted left. Sorry again about the Soros founding comment, but if it wasn't for him and Lewis moveon would not be around.

Ripple, thanks for the reply. Like you, I bounce all over. I do not read Newsmax however. They are garbage IMO.

Do you visit Drudgereport? Another guy with an agenda, but a occasionally some interesting links. Hannity, Limbaugh and the rest of the shrill right wing ideologues visit the site often, but only occasionally do they attribute their "breaking news" to Drudge. What I don't like about Drudge is that he never retracts ANYTHING - EVER. Bad form.

ripple
08-18-2004, 14:17
Often heard of drudgerpeort but never checked it out, so many news recources and so little time. I will take a look at it . Newsmax is way to the right, but garbage? They have some valid points. Which we could disagree on. The New York Times has had way to many scandels for me to read, and believe. Just the way I feel.

Happy trails!

MOWGLI
08-18-2004, 14:35
Newsmax is way to the right, but garbage? They have some valid points. Which we could disagree on.

Happy trails!
Ripple:
Carl Limbacher aka "Carl from Oyster Bay" was a regular caller on 770 WABC in New York in the late 90s. (I believe) He is one of the founders of Newsmax (along with Chris Ruddy). He'd talk all kinds of smack about Hillary killing Vince Foster, and just crazy unsubstantiated stuff. Steve Malzberg, another complete lunatic from WABC (a radio personality) is (was) a regular contributor to Newsmax. I don't have much tolerance for the rabid, foaming at the mouth, anti-intellectual crowd, and they are thick at Newsmax.

I suppose if you troll around enough you might find some interesting stuff. Having folks like Dr. Laura on there doesn't help. She wants to lecture me about morals, yet she couldn't keep her clothes on in front of a photographer - and then tried to lie about it. She is America's #1 hypocrite IMO.

But then again.. that's why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors.

weary
08-18-2004, 15:16
Often heard of drudgerpeort but never checked it out, so many news recources and so little time. I will take a look at it . Newsmax is way to the right, but garbage? They have some valid points. Which we could disagree on. The New York Times has had way to many scandels for me to read, and believe. Just the way I feel. Happy trails!

The New York Times had a reporter who made up stories and it took some time for them to discover it. When they did, they splashed the discovery on their front page.

Some of the "news" sources Ripple claims to prefer routinely make up stuff, though, unlike the Times, they don't consider making up stories and distorting stories a mistake. It's just what they do for a living.

Weary

Percival
08-18-2004, 16:45
www.nytimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com) is my home page, and I pick up the paper here in Chattanooga 3-4 times a week.

IMO, the worst paper in America is the NY Post. They have a pretty good sports section though.
I take it you're from New York? In another post you mentioned being a newcomer to Tennessee.

Percival
08-18-2004, 16:56
Having folks like Dr. Laura on there doesn't help. She wants to lecture me about morals, yet she couldn't keep her clothes on in front of a photographer - and then tried to lie about it. She is America's #1 hypocrite IMO.

You're right on there. She posed naked in all kinds of interesting postions for her professor when she was a graduate student. That's right, she slept with her professor. Guess she wouldn't have graduated otherwise.

She's also a fraud using the "Doctor" title in an advise show, since she holds no doctorate in psychology and is not a medical doctor. In fact, she's no mental health professional at all but is just a mental case. If anyone doesn't know about her nude pics, just type in pencilnecks.com / Laura.html to your browser, and hit enter (preceded by www. and without the spaces)

MOWGLI
08-18-2004, 16:59
She's also a fraud using the "Doctor" title in an advise show, since she holds no doctorate in psychology and is not a medical doctor. In fact, she's no mental health professional at all but is just a mental case. If anyone doesn't know about her nude pics, just go to (address omitted)

Percival, it serves no purpose to link to nude photos on this site. Have some class and remove the link - please.

MOWGLI
08-18-2004, 16:59
I take it you're from New York? In another post you mentioned being a newcomer to Tennessee.

Yup - born & raised.

Percival
08-18-2004, 17:21
Percival, it serves no purpose to link to nude photos on this site. Have some class and remove the link - please.
Ordinary I would agree with you, but under the circumstances I will argue the point. We are talking about "Doctor Fraud" Laura Schlessinger, an obnoxious public figure who, as you correctly point out, is the biggest liar and hypocrit on radio. She denied posing nude while profiteering from her cheap in-your-face moralizing. She claims she didn't pose nude for her professor? The link is the proof. You've got nothing to hide, right laura?

Nonetheless, perhaps a link is a little too direct for the webmasters of this A-1 hiking site. So I've removed the link and inserted instructions that anyone can follow on their own, if they want to see this sleazy tasteless liar in her true form.

MOWGLI
08-18-2004, 17:24
So I've removed the link and inserted instructions that anyone can follow on their own...

Thank you.

Jack Tarlin
08-18-2004, 18:54
I was gonna stay outta this thread altogether as it's getting pretty ridiculous, but every now and again you see something so outrageous you haveta step in and comment:

Blue Jay was recently whining about being blatantly misrepresented by Mountain Dew.

Quoth Blue Jay: "I never compared the atrocities that we have done to the Jews and the Japanese and the Muslims..."

Yet shortly before this, Blue Jay had written "I know we have a history of this type of atrocity such as Japanese citizens in Concentration Camps during WW2. Germany went after the Jews, we are using the Muslims this time..."

Well, gee whiz, Blue Jay, it sure looks you're you're comparing these atrocities to me, despite your denial of doing so.

Note to Blue Jay:

*Mountain Dew didn't misrepresent you.
*In re. to the events you mention, there's simply no way to compare them.
*The re-location camps of the Second World War designed to hold Japanese-
American internees were in no way comparable to the death camps of Nazi
Germany. Do some reading or talk to some survivors. But trying to put
Manzanar in California at the same level moral level as Auschwitz or Buchenwald is an argument so obscenely false that it deserves nothing but
pity for the person ignorant enough to say such things.
*In mentioning what we are allegedly doing to the Muslims, you're again
arguing a ridiculous point. Are you really arguing that we're at war with all
Muslims? Gee, I guess that's why we went into Bosnia....in case you don't
know, most of the lives we saved there were Muslim. And I guess you're
unaware that the second largest recipient of American foreign aid, including
humanitarian aid, is Egypt, which last I checked, wasn't populated by
the Amish. And likewise, the folks we liberated in Kuwait weren't Amish
either, nor are the supremely ungrateful citizens of Iraq. In short, your
argumant that America is out to "get" Muslims is simply untrue.


Blue Jay, if you're gonna write foolish things here, expect to be called on it. And when it happens, please refrain from the bitching and moaning about being blatantly misrepresented. You have a history of saying some startling
things here. Some of them are obviously meant as mere attention-getters, posted solely in order to provoke people. Some are merely ignorant. But in any case, if you're gonna write foolish things, then don't complain when people object to them, and don't deny saying them either.

The only thing more childish about saying stupid, thoughtless, ignorant things is to then immediately deny having said them.

smokymtnsteve
08-18-2004, 19:13
read SNOW FALLING ON CEDARS

Mountain Dew
08-19-2004, 02:31
Blue Wacko....How can you deny what you say when all people have to do is scroll up and check it out for themselves as Baltimore Jack pointed out ? Atleast go back and use the EDIT function to hide to crazy comments. Also...you ranted over and over about how no city has technology to detect chemical or biological weapons. FALSE, that technology has been de-classified and several city's fire departments now have such equipment while others will surely be right behind them.
Blue Wacko, "Actually there is one last honest media source. That is the National Enquirer" --- :bse Proof positive.
Blue Wacko taking up for his idol Ms. jane fonda while talking to lone wolf... "Get over Jane will you, and face the hard fact that we're still killing and dying for nothing." --- he even try's to compare the war in Iraq with Vietnam. :cool:

lone wolf... How old is that book you talked about ?

weary... "Among the newspapers by far the best is the Wall Street Journal -- the news pages anyway. The Journal's editorials and columnists are almost uniformly dumb. I don't have any stock investments, but I subscribe to the Journal as the most complete source of important national and world news currently available." ---you claim their columnist are almost all dumb yet you love this paper. Curious.... :-?

MowGLi... I heard today on the radio that Soros is in big trouble with the feds. Sounds like an upstanding citizen to be proud of. Ofcourse he's innocent until proven guilty... :D


Vince Foster ? Did somebody mention Vince Foster ? Without much proof, in my opinion, YEAH he was murdered in the whitehouse. The FBI says that he didn't write that suicide letter either. So, if he nobody killed him, why would somebody fake a suicide letter ? 2+2=4 folks. (more common sense)---> If you grew up with a guy in a same small town and was good friends with him....then he *died...would you not say some kind words to the wife/parents of your good friend at the funeral as is cutomary ?


I'm not shocked at the hatred for Fox News online to say the least. The O'reilly Factor is a must see for me. I don't always agree with him, but he is fair and balanced weather your slanted views agree or not. He recently alowed Alex Baldwin on his show to give set the record straight about comments that he never said, but were attributed to him. ( I'll leave the U.A. if Bush is elected) Actually, it was his ex-wife who said that. O'Reilly routinely gives his guests the last word and doesn't ban the far left from his show. Saying that he isn't fair and balanced is in my opinion...inferior thinking. oh well.... I suppose we all agree on two things. We support the A.T. and WB(attroll) !!!

ripple
08-19-2004, 07:10
Weary
It did not take time for the NY times to discover a reporter of theirs was making things up. That was the reporters second offense. Go look into it more.

Blue Jay
08-19-2004, 07:41
You are correct Baltimore Jack and Hudson. I should not have used the word "Concentration", it a should have been "Internment" as Hudson suggested in an earlier post. I did not mean to compare them but I can see where you could make that assumption.

Blue Jay
08-19-2004, 07:47
Blue Wacko taking up for his idol Ms. jane fonda while talking to lone wolf... "Get over Jane will you, and face the hard fact that we're still killing and dying for nothing." --- he even try's to compare the war in Iraq with Vietnam.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, it's the same war, different country. Same result too, nothing but a lot of wasted lives.

Blue Jay
08-19-2004, 07:56
Blue Wacko....Also...you ranted over and over about how no city has technology to detect chemical or biological weapons. FALSE, that technology has been de-classified and several city's fire departments now have such equipment while others will surely be right behind them.


I said STATE. A technology has been de-classified???? That's like saying the Polio Vaccine or chemotherapy or the internal cumbustion engine was classified and then declassified. Of all your statements that one makes the least sense. Exactly what city has a fire department that has a bioweapons testing lab? Is this like your belief that Conservatism and Christianity are the same concept.

MOWGLI
08-19-2004, 09:18
Vince Foster.....without much proof, in my opinion, YEAH he was murdered in the whitehouse. The FBI says that he didn't write that suicide letter either. So, if he nobody killed him, why would somebody fake a suicide letter ? 2+2=4 folks.



Now Hudson, I am aware that you are studying Criminal Justice at a Baptist College in Texas (Man - that is scary!). I hope that they teach you that more than a rudimentary understanding of math, some faith, and a hunch are required to convict somebody of a crime. You know, I pray alot, and one of my most frequent prayers is Lord, please don't let me get pulled over by a Texas Lawman. :D

Alligator
08-19-2004, 09:35
Lord, please don't let me get pulled over by a Texas Lawman. :D
Amen brother, and I pity low IQ Texas residents.

Hellbilly
08-19-2004, 09:44
Viewers of ABC's Good Morning America saw something very unusual earlier this month: Fox News Channel's star host Bill O'Reilly admitted he was wrong about something. Sort of.

Right before U.S. forces invaded Iraq, O'Reilly made a bold promise on ABC about Iraq's WMDs: "If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush Administration again, all right?"

Last week, thanks to persistent needling from ABC host Charlie Gibson, O'Reilly mustered a half-hearted apology: "Well, my analysis was wrong and I'm sorry.. I was wrong. I'm not pleased about it at all." As to the promise to "never trust the Bush administration again," he was considerably less forceful: "I am much more skeptical of the Bush administration now than I was at that time," he explained, before blaming CIA chief George Tenet for Bush's troubles.

But the day after his climbdown, O'Reilly was back on more familiar turf, telling his Fox audience that the controversy was cooked up by the "left-wing press" who "used my words to hammer the president." The liberal media, he reminded his audience, "has made dozens of mistakes itself and continues to deny that the world is a better place because Saddam is gone." This from a guy who promises his show is a "no spin zone."

boulder
08-19-2004, 12:53
According to Mike McGrath, the president of NAM-POWs and a prisoner from 1967 to 1973,"There were never any POWs killed on account of Jane. . . That story about the notes has a nice theatric touch, but no such thing ever happened. . . the worst that happened to us was that we had to listen to the camp radio with Fonda propaganda. It pissed us off, but i doubt you can call that "torture."

The author of the book mentioned, while having some publications in law journals, has no publication relating to a non legal topics in a reputable press. His CV is online for all to see. He publishes in backwater presses with marginal reputations at best. As has been said, anyone, can get anything out there, doesn't make it so.

I have to echo sgt. rock's comments on the christain science monitor. it is the best U.S. publication for news, particularly for international news. It is very well respected around the world.

sgtjinx
08-19-2004, 13:37
According to Mike McGrath, the president of NAM-POWs and a prisoner from 1967 to 1973,"There were never any POWs killed on account of Jane. . . That story about the notes has a nice theatric touch, but no such thing ever happened. . . the worst that happened to us was that we had to listen to the camp radio with Fonda propaganda. It pissed us off, but i doubt you can call that "torture."

The author of the book mentioned, while having some publications in law journals, has no publication relating to a non legal topics in a reputable press. His CV is online for all to see. He publishes in backwater presses with marginal reputations at best. As has been said, anyone, can get anything out there, doesn't make it so.

I have to echo sgt. rock's comments on the christain science monitor. it is the best U.S. publication for news, particularly for international news. It is very well respected around the world.

What about Hanoii Jane, telling who Col. Rowe was?

MOWGLI
08-19-2004, 13:47
Amen brother, and I pity low IQ Texas residents.


Gator, you're not picking on any of the upstanding members of this website, are you? :D

Mags
08-19-2004, 14:04
The Internet has brought us many good things. Wonderful ways to access lots of information, the ability to stay in contact with friends easily, able to discuss ideas with people I normally would not have contact with.

Alas, they also spread urban legends quickly. If I get one more e-mail saying how Bill Gates is monitoring e-mail or how this is the recipe for an XYZ's corps food, I'll blow a gasket. :)

Seems the Hanoi Jane UL is getting spread a lot too courtest of the Internet.

Below is a very balanced discussion of the whole incident. Snopes is the first place I like to check when I hear about questionable material.

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

Long story short, Jane Fonda did say "These were not men who had been tortured. These were not men who had been starved. These were not men who had been brainwashed."; that is an insult to the POWs who did get tortured, starved, etc.

OTOH:
The most serious accusations in the piece quoted above <nobr>--</nobr> that Fonda turned over slips of paper furtively given her by American POWS to the North Vietnamese and that several POWs were beaten to death as a result <nobr>--</nobr> are proveably untrue. Those named in the inflammatory <nobr>e-mail</nobr> categorically deny the events they supposedly were part of.

"It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry Carrigan, one of the servicemen mentioned in the 'slips of paper' incident. Carrigan was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967 and did spend time in a POW camp. He has no idea why the story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda."

....

So read the snopes article devoid of rightwing and leftwing agenda.

Alligator
08-19-2004, 14:56
Gator, you're not picking on any of the upstanding members of this website, are you? :D
That's sympathy not meanness. Besides, I haven't read of any intellectually challenged Texas members on this website who have broken any laws. Just all 'round good-natured banter and chest thumping, with no specific member coming to mind:rolleyes: .

steve hiker
08-19-2004, 19:49
Amen brother, and I pity low IQ Texas residents.
Texans are meaner than snakes but not nearly as smart. A very dangerous combination.

They do give mules a run for the money on I.Q. scores.

Connie
08-19-2004, 20:25
Hanoi Jane is a traitor.

Her speaking on the radio, over there, is treason.

She was not misquoted, or a tape had been smuggled and altered.

She has lived around here, and she hasn't changed a bit !

I was in stationed in California, when she tried to get her husband to run for President. Californians would have none of him, or her.

In Montana, it was the same thing all over again with her new husband.

Rhetoric is rhetoric and facts are facts.

She is a all "politics" and she has no loyalty, whatsoever, to the united states.

As far as the AT in wartime ..the trail is still there.

The volunteers worked just as hard. People walked the trail.

Apparently, the AT is important enough for the volunteers, and, for the people who walked.


Connie

Mountain Dew
08-19-2004, 21:07
Blue Jay, "A technology has been de-classified???? That's like saying the Polio Vaccine or chemotherapy or the internal cumbustion engine was classified and then declassified. Of all your statements that one makes the least sense. "--- THANK YOU..... for walking right into my stupidity trap set just for you. Obviously you are not aware that often times the military will declassify things that would benefit the public. This isn't a new thing either. The military has a device that can fit into your hand that can detect chemical or biological weapons in the air. A city just outside of Dallas has one and I believe New York got one a few weeks later. Other city's are bound to follow. Specials forces are using them in the middle east as I saw on the show.
-----------------------------------------
I know threads get heated on WB, but attacks of somebody's denomination, University, state in which they live ? Come on ! That's clearly weak and pathetic. What's next ? Personal emails with personal slams and threats under made up screen names. I know Lone Wolf has recieved atleast one of these. Use a debate format with facts and informed opinions to back up your point. Nobody is perfect and thus each of us is wrong from time to time. Including me. White Blaze offers something a debate in person doesn't. People can hide behind a screen name. Many of the flame throwers on WB do just that. They throw these flames of verbal giardia into a post while they remain hidden behind a screen name....many do so at work with a clear conscience I'm sure. A few have even gone as far as to make up a new screen name on WB in order to remain hidden. Chicken *****. I choose not to hide, but rather post my information for all to see. So scury like cockroaches and go hide if you must.

MOWGLI16, "Now Hudson, I am aware that you are studying Criminal Justice at a Baptist College in Texas (Man - that is scary!). " --- insulting my University, Texas, and my denomination in one sentence ! Please go into some detail about what exactly is scary about all of that. Don't backpeddle and walk away from your words.
And the rest of your rant..."I hope that they teach you that more than a rudimentary understanding of math, some faith, and a hunch are required to convict somebody of a crime. You know, I pray alot, and one of my most frequent prayers is Lord, please don't let me get pulled over by a Texas Lawman. "[/I] ---Actually they have one of the best , if not the best, criminal justice programs in the nation. My professors included two Police Chiefs, Attorneys, District Attorneys, etc. Most if not all of these professors have more than the required masters degree's as well. Dallas Baptist University also has one of the highest professors with doctorates to student ratios in the nation. You also make a joke of prayer with your attempt at humor. To further show your insult of my highly respected university is a joke I'll add that our mascot is "The Patriot". It is similar to the New England Patriots mascot. What about the flagpole that stands at the highest point on campus since way before it was cool to fly a flag. i.e. 9/11. This is what you insult when you blindly slam a persons university without even elementary knowledge of the school. I would NEVER make such ignorant statements towards your home state of New York nor your university if you have one. As am American that loves his country I'd never insult another state in the way you have. That;s typical liberal America hating at it's best. You offend me and others on this site with blanket slams of Texans. What's funny is that you worked for about 17 years for a company based in Texas that you claimed to like. Did you know that company was founded by a Texan ? hahahaa Hypocrisy at it's finest. EXPOSED ! I wanna see you weak based spin out of this crap hole you dug and now stand in.

Alligator..."Amen brother, and I pity low IQ Texas residents" --- I see that you second his thoughts. For you to accross the board slam every citizen of a state isn't exactly high intellectual material now is it. Funny, you claim that I have a low IQ, but that doesn't explain how I got into Mensa now does it ? Did I mention that it is based in Arlington, TEXAS. Oh, and to cut your weak reply off here....it's not solely a Texas organization. It came to the U.S. via New York and now has its headquarters here. I can't wait to see you slant and dance around this one.


Hellbilly, I guess you either didn't read or couldn't comprehend the part of my last entry where I clearly said that I don't always agree with O'Reilly nor do I blindly follow him. I didn't see the show that you talked about, but I don't doubt it happened either. That was a great example of how he isn't perfect now isn't it. My point exatly. Thanks. I have never and will never blindly support those that I listen to or respect.

Steve Hiker.... aren't you the one that claimed all blacks are N*gg*rs and how you hike to escape them in your home state ? Need I say more about ignorance.

Look who chimes in with support of Mow and Alligator ? Now think about that for a while ! hahahaaaa Classic Just when people can't get you with facts or force you to believe as they do they get nasty. hahaaaaa


Bolder.... nice entry, but fail to acknowledge the whole story of Jane Fonda and her visits over there.

MOWGLI
08-19-2004, 21:24
MOWGLI16, "Now Hudson, I am aware that you are studying Criminal Justice at a Baptist College in Texas (Man - that is scary!). " --- insulting my University, Texas, and my denomination in one sentence ! Please go into some detail about what exactly is scary about all of that. Don't backpeddle and walk away from your words.
And the rest of your rant..."I hope that they teach you that more than a rudimentary understanding of math, some faith, and a hunch are required to convict somebody of a crime. You know, I pray alot, and one of my most frequent prayers is Lord, please don't let me get pulled over by a Texas Lawman. "[/I] ---Actually they have one of the best , if not the best, criminal justice programs in the nation. My professors included two Police Chiefs, Attorneys, District Attorneys, etc. Most if not all of these professors have more than the required masters degree's as well. Dallas Baptist University also has one of the highest professors with doctorates to student ratios in the nation. You also make a joke of prayer with your attempt at humor. To further show your insult of my highly respected university is a joke I'll add that our mascot is "The Patriot". It is similar to the New England Patriots mascot. What about the flagpole that stands at the highest point on campus since way before it was cool to fly a flag. i.e. 9/11. This is what you insult when you blindly slam a persons university without even elementary knowledge of the school. I would NEVER make such ignorant statements towards your home state of New York nor your university if you have one. You offend me and others on this site with blanket slams of Texans. What's funny is that you worked for about 17 years for a company based in Texas that you claimed to like. Did you know that company was founded by a Texan ? hahahaa Hypocrisy at it's finest. EXPOSED ! I wanna see you weak based spin out of this crap hole you dug and now stand in.


Well, if you are going to quote me, you should include my smilies. You left out the little green guy smiling like a cheshire cat. To me, he represents satire or funny, or something along those lines. I don't use them often, but when I do, they usually have a meaning.

But anyway, I do think the whole law enforcement thing in Texas is a bit scary. Executing mentally retarded folks and whatnot. Just my opinion - but we are getting way off topic.

Anyway, darn - you are really thin skinned. Don't be so darn defensive. My intent was not to try and insult your religion, state, university and profession. Trust me! I would have been much more pointed if that was my intent.

Tone it down a bit Hudson. Remember what the trail scene was like, and post in that spirit.

One last thing. My company only did business in Texas for 2 years while I was in their employ. That was the last 2 years I was with Verizon. I worked with some folks from Texas - and we got along just fine. I also summited Katahdin with Profile, Almanac & Lone Star, and Lone Star was a devout christian from Dallas. A great guy too.

steve hiker
08-19-2004, 21:43
Steve Hiker.... aren't you the one that claimed all blacks are N*gg*rs and how you hike to escape them in your home state ? Need I say more about ignorance.
That has nothing to do with ignorance. Unfortunately, I am not the least bit ignorant about n*gg*rs. Nor does that have anything to do with the mentality of Texans.

I know Texans well enough to know that the remarks in this thread about Texas bonehead mentality are accurate. Not for every Texan, but a damn good many of them.

Mountain Dew
08-19-2004, 21:45
What the heck does your snreen name mean anyways ? Just curious about that for a while now.
Mow.... "But anyway, I do think the whole law enforcement thing in Texas is a bit scary. Executing mentally retarded folks and whatnot. Just my opinion - but we are getting way off topic." ---Yes, you did get way off topic with your attempt at a jab at me. We agree on the topic of the mentally retarded executions I believe, but that in noway makes the entire "law enforcement" community bad. Thats a very large emcompassing statement. By the way...why did you even bring this topic up ? It had nothing to do with anything previously said. People often turn to race, "home states", and religion as ways to put somebody down when they run out of facts. All are very elementary in nature.

I'm not thin skinned in the least. If you were around me and my friends you'd think we hated one another with the way we carry on. You clearly insulted my denomination, my university, and entire state. top backpeddling before you trip. How does one joke about that without knowing somebody ? If you didn't intend on doing so you were atleast guilty of poor judgement/timing. You summitted with three Texans ? How could you when you think we are all stupid ? I take it that you don't really believe that and I was right in my assessment of your weak jab. One thing I really enjoyed about the trail was getting to know people from all over the states.

Mow, "Tone it down a bit Hudson. Remember what the trail scene was like, and post in that spirit. --- like insulting peoples university's, denominations, and home states ? Yeah I saw some of that on the trail. It wasn't o.k. then by me nor will it be o.k. online with me. Making your comments in a shelter to strangers would not have been joking as you claim your statements were on here. Realize that. Call that thin skinned if you want, but since when is verbal defense thin skinned.

Atleast you admitted to working for a Texan and liking it. But...in the end does it really matter ?

Mountain Dew
08-19-2004, 21:56
Stevehiker... hahahaaaaa you say that thinking all blacks are N*ggers isn't ignorance ? bwahahahaa I'm surprised you haven't claimed how great Hitler was and how intelligent he was on this thread seeing how his name was brought up. How on earth did you resist. Atleast you backpeddled on the entire state of Texas being stupid. Watch out don't trip. o.k. How you have remained on whiteblaze with comments like you have made towards an entire race is beyond me. OK I'm done with you.

MOWGLI
08-19-2004, 21:57
What the heck doesn't your snreen name mean anyways ? Just curious about that for a while now.
It is a nickname from work with Verizon. I have spent a lot of time in the rainforest. Mowgli is a character from Jungle Book. Since I logged onto dozens of systems at Verizon and elsewhere, I tend to use a common userid. MOWGLI16 (the 16 means nothing).



I believe it was your way of throwing a jab at me.

Perhaps you are right. It was not meant to be mean spirited or malicious.




You summitted with three Texans ?
I summited with 1 Texan - Lone Star. Profile and Almanac live in Georgia and own Hikerhostel.com




...like insulting peoples university's, denominations, and home states ? Yeah I saw some of that on the trail. It wasn't o.k. then by me nor will it be o.k. online with me.
Well, that's why the internet is not like the trail. The smile on my face and the intent of my posting did not translate. For that, I apologize. If I had said it to you in a shelter with a funny tone and a smile on my face, I bet you would have laughed. I recently hiked the Pine Mountain Trail in KY with two Southern Baptists. We had a great time and talked about all kinds of things. We agreed on very little politically or religiously (I am a Christian too) but had a great time. Like I said in a previous post. If we met on the trail, we'd probably get along just fine.

Little Bear
GA-ME 2000

steve hiker
08-19-2004, 22:05
I'll say one thing about you Mountain Dew, you're good entertainment. Nothing like a little pot stirring to liven things up, and you always deliver. Like the typical Texan, your six-gun is always loaded and your finger usually engages before your brain.

Mountain Dew
08-19-2004, 22:37
MowGLi <---that is taken from Jungle Book ? I hadn't thought about that book/movie since I was a kid. I use to love that movie. So why didn't you use that name on the trail as well ?

While at a hostel I listened to two other hikers , one from NH and the other from NM, slam Texas left and right all while I sat in front of them. (they knew i was from Texas !) They smiled the whole time. We also got into an argument about "Texas". I find it ridiculous for me to have to defend one of the STATES of our beloved U.S.A. to fellow hikers. They both soon drank themselves off of the trail and out of money. :sun Perhaps this makes me now "over jumpy" at people making Texas comments with smiles on their faces. Possibly I am guilty of not checking out the "smiley" faces with posts. So many times they are meant in a sarcastic way that perhaps I associate all of them in that manner now. If anything you are absolutely correct about people coming accross in a clearer manner in person and thus never starting an argument because of it. I'll try to remember that.

Stevehiker, "I'll say one thing about you Mountain Dew, you're good entertainment. Nothing like a little pot stirring to liven things up, and you always deliver." --- with your racist comments in mind.... pardon me, but isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black ? Question for you....do you prefer to wear your hood while on the internet as well ? :banana

copythat
08-19-2004, 23:12
This isn't restricted to just "liberals" or "conservatives" both sides play the game just as poorly. ... I was watching CSPAN the other day and they were airing an old 1971 Dick Cavet show where both sides actually talked and presented facts presenting letters and articles - entirely. ... These days you would have both sides yelling over the top of each other and some "news person" egging the fight on.

I consider myself conservative, but I do not ever align myself with any one party anymore ...


Sgt. Rock, you are so right on the money. For years now there has been a thing called "pack journalism," in which "journalists" stay in the same hotels, eat in the same restaurants and run around together interviewing the same people and filing the same stories (with some MINOR variations). It is sloppy. It is not effective. It is lazy. You can see it every day on TV and in newspapers, too. (I know, because I work at one.) I believe in the role a free press is SUPPOSED to play in our democracy. Lately, if you want to find that, you have to turn to radio feeds like Free Speech Radio and publications like The Nation. No, they're not liberal, or conservative. They tend toward radical. They don't believe the Democrats OR the Republicans, and that's the only way to get at the truth. Gotta be a junkyard dog, not the groomed pedigrees on the networks.

I agree with you about bailing from the parties. These days, the way things are going, I'd call that patriotic. CHALLENGE things when they go wrong. CHALLENGE the people in power. Make them CONVINCE you. Why should I shut up just because the president -- ANY president -- tells me to?

I don't care what the president's name is or party is, if s/he wants to drill for oil in MY wilderness or let MY national parks disintegrate.

Sorry for the rant. But as someone said earlier, I just can't help it.

Groucho
08-19-2004, 23:24
I know we have a history of this type of atrocity such as Japanese Citizens in Concenteration Camps during WW2.


Little known fact: Americans of Japanese ancestry weren't the only group interned during WWII. Read about it here (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/mm20040811.shtml).

steve hiker
08-19-2004, 23:34
I think we should change the title of this thread to Whiteblaze in Wartime.

:banana

boulder
08-20-2004, 06:34
Erased from public memory is the fact that Fonda's purpose was to use her celebrity to put a spotlight on the possible bombing of Vietnam's system of dikes. Her charges were dismissed at the time by George H.W. Bush, then America's ambassador to the United Nations, who complained of a "carefully planned campaign by the North Vietnamese and their supporters to give worldwide circulation to this falsehood." But Fonda was right and Bush was lying, as revealed by the April-May 1972 White House transcripts of Richard Nixon talking to Henry Kissinger about "this ****-ass little country":

NIXON: We've got to be thinking in terms of an all-out bombing attack.... I'm thinking of the dikes.

KISSINGER: I agree with you.

NIXON: ...Will that drown people?

KISSINGER: About two hundred thousand people.

It was in order to try to avert this catastrophe that Fonda, whose popular "FTA" road show (either "Fun, Travel, Adventure" or "**** the Army") was blocked from access to military bases, gave interviews on Hanoi radio describing the human consequences of all-out bombing by B-52 pilots five miles above her. After her visit, the US bombing of the dike areas slowed down, "allowing the Vietnamese at last to repair damage and avert massive flooding," according to scholar Mary Hershberger.

By the way research by John Hubbell, as well as 1973 interviews with POWs, shows that Vietnamese behavior meeting any recognized definition of torture had ceased by 1969, three years before the Fonda visit. James Stockdale, the POW who emerged as Ross Perot's running mate in 1992, wrote that no more than 10 percent of the US pilots received at least 90 percent of the Vietnamese punishment, often for deliberate acts of resistance. Yet the legends of widespread, sinister Oriental torture have been accepted as fact by millions of Americans.

ripple
08-20-2004, 07:34
A smiling Fonda sitting in an anti air craft gun meant to kill americans would be on par w/ someone going to Iraq sitting w/ the "insurgents" and smiling while handling the knifes they uses to cut off american heads.

Blue Jay
08-20-2004, 07:35
The military has a device that can fit into your hand that can detect chemical or biological weapons in the air. A city just outside of Dallas has one and I believe New York got one a few weeks later. Other city's are bound to follow. Specials forces are using them in the middle east as I saw on the show.

Those are almost worthless, merely detectors. New York does have them, my lab has one. They are notorious for false alarms as they alarm when there is a substance unknown to their data base. Since there are millions of microorganisms not in this data base they go off constantly. What I was talking about was useful staff and equipment that can analyse what the weapon actually is so steps to safe guard the general population could actually be made not just run away every 5 minutes. "As you saw on the show", yes Spiderman most likely CAN analyze for chemical or biological weapons. You do realize you're arguing in favor of a cheap liberal bandaid solution, don't you.

Hellbilly
08-20-2004, 08:47
Oh, I understood your post Mountain Dew. I just have a hard time believing it. "The O'reilly Factor is a must see for me. I don't always agree with him, but he is fair and balanced weather your slanted views agree or not." It's easy enough to look up the transcript from the Good Morning America show, if you can comprehend it that is. I just find it funny that anyone could believe Bill O'Reilly is event remotely fair and balanced. I work in a company which is almost 100% conservative, and even they realise that Fox News is extremely right leaning, that is why they watch it.

SGT Rock
08-20-2004, 09:36
Fair and accurate reporting is not allowing both sides to present their spin or egging them into a fight on TV about a subject. Unfortunately that is now the definition of fair and accurate.

Reporting should be concerned with answering a few questions: Who, What, When, Where, How, and sometimes Why. These should be thorough answers not simple ones. Unfortunately the current "news" outlets have gone to minimal reporting on most important matters with some editorializing on the end of the report. To be fair and balanced these days means you find anyone that claims to represent either side then allow them to argue what something means on TV. And often, they only consider two sides to every argument, not that there are opinions other than the established two parties. Such thinking allows everything to become an us vs them with "liberals" or "conservatives"; or "Democrat" vs "Republicans" even though these labels often don't really apply to the given situation. Or, it means that you assume the other side is all jacked up (whatever side you agree with) and have a news outlet that seems to present your similar point of view.

There is sort of an exception to the rule and that is celebrity "News". For some reason we can get all the in depth reporting we can stand on love triangle court cases, Mr Jackson's sexual habits, or Las Vegas entertainers get mauled by the pet tiger.

About October 2003 - I was sitting in Iraq a day or two after an ambush in Sadr City by Sadr's militia and we knew this was signaling a bad thing. It was HUGE news and if people had paid more attention back then to what was going on, then maybe the things that happened about 6 months later, and again now could have been headed off. But FOX was still focused on defending the president about WMD, CNN was still beating up the president over something else, and the major amount of either of the news broadcasts that we could see from their repeat news (FOX has something like Headline News that you can get outside the US) was about the tigers mauling his handler on stage in Las Vegas.

IMHO Americans can argue about nothing, and some seem to love it while confusing argument with debate. AND Americans are too easily distracted.

Furlough
08-20-2004, 09:38
Erased from public memory is the fact that Fonda's purpose was to use her celebrity to put a spotlight on the possible bombing of Vietnam's system of dikes.
Boulder,
Perhaps the above portion of your post should have read: Erased from public memory is the fact that Jane Fond advocated turning the United States of America into a Communist State.

On November 21, 1970 Jane Fonda told a University of Michigan audience of some two thousand students, "If you understood what communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees that we would some day become communist." At Duke University in North Carolina she repeated what she had said in Michigan, adding "I, a socialist, think that we should strive toward a socialist society, all the way to communism."

These statements were made 3 years before her infamous visit to Hanoi. Perhaps she used her celebrity not as a vehicle to save innocent lives, but as a mechanism to attain her true goals of seeing the US become a communist state.

Blue Jay
08-20-2004, 09:49
Jane Fonda was a tiny footnote in history. She was not relevent then and had no power and now she is an old lady. There is no reason for anyone to even remember her unless you like old movies. The only reason I can find to continue to cause sooo much vilification is with losers who have been rejected all their lives by beautiful women. Communism is not the threat anymore, it's not 1970.

Also stop bashing Texas, even in jest. They have enough problems with every one thinking George and Hudson represent the intelligence of this fine state. Most Texanas are in fact, literate.

smokymtnsteve
08-20-2004, 10:06
Jane Fonda while she was married to TED was very active is sex-ed activism here in GA...and we really need to teach kids about birth control here in GA.
She did some great work here.

Chappy
08-20-2004, 10:16
Now Hudson, I am aware that you are studying Criminal Justice at a Baptist College in Texas (Man - that is scary!). I hope that they teach you that more than a rudimentary understanding of math, some faith, and a hunch are required to convict somebody of a crime. You know, I pray alot, and one of my most frequent prayers is Lord, please don't let me get pulled over by a Texas Lawman. :D

You've become a real good cheapshot artist! None you feel it necessary to take on the Baptists...is there nothing you can keep your mouth closed on? Was it necessary to bring them into this diatribe?

Mountain Dew: I commend you for attending one of our greeat schools. God bless you, brother!

Chappy
08-20-2004, 10:20
Texans are meaner than snakes but not nearly as smart. A very dangerous combination.

They do give mules a run for the money on I.Q. scores.

Isn't this a wonderful country...someone from Louisiana slamming someone from Texas! Go figure.

MOWGLI
08-20-2004, 10:20
You've become a real good cheapshot artist!

Chappy, I have nothing against Baptists, cops, Texans, or you. See the grin in my post?

Alligator
08-20-2004, 10:22
Alligator..."Amen brother, and I pity low IQ Texas residents" --- I see that you second his thoughts. For you to accross the board slam every citizen of a state isn't exactly high intellectual material now is it. Funny, you claim that I have a low IQ, but that doesn't explain how I got into Mensa now does it ? Did I mention that it is based in Arlington, TEXAS. Oh, and to cut your weak reply off here....it's not solely a Texas organization. It came to the U.S. via New York and now has its headquarters here. I can't wait to see you slant and dance around this one.Let's break it down for you Mensa Boy.

...You know, I pray alot, and one of my most frequent prayers is Lord, please don't let me get pulled over by a Texas Lawman. :D.
Amen brother, and I pity low IQ Texas residents.Who said I slammed all the residents of Texas? I was referring to the mentally handicapped individuals. I made no statements about any other groups from Texas. There is no claim there about your IQ. Do you get this a lot, you seem to feel a need to defend your IQ?

The amen refers to the last part of MOWGLI16's post. Which, as you have connected in a later post, refers to the Texas position on execution of the mentally handicapped.

In reference to Steve Hiker, guilt by association is a weak argument. I have one person on my ignore list-Steve Hiker. His racism is really ugly. (I have Doo Doo Dawg there too, but he's not a person and he's just not funny.) Well, I did read Steve's one post immediately following mine, but not the rest.


Trust me Dew, I know all about Mensa , I met the requirements over twenty years ago. And you clearly show the reason why I have no desire to join, the "I'm so smart, I'm in Mensa" mentality. If you're so friggin' smart, how about learning to use the quote feature.



You type out the text like this, highlight, then hit the quote icon on the message toolbar.
or like this.

Mensa

Chappy
08-20-2004, 10:28
Chappy, I have nothing against Baptists, cops, Texans, or you. See the grin in my post?

Oops...guess I'm feeling a little sensitive today. Probably feel my faith is something I don't like tampered with. Sorry.

Did you learn much from my Southern Baptist brothers? You mean they didn't convert you? :D Now I see what you mean with the face.

Furlough
08-20-2004, 10:32
Jane Fonda was a tiny footnote in history. She was not relevent then and had no power and now she is an old lady. There is no reason for anyone to even remember her unless you like old movies. The only reason I can find to continue to cause sooo much vilification is with losers who have been rejected all their lives by beautiful women. Communism is not the threat anymore, it's not 1970.I must infer your above quote is in reference to my post. I have been married now for over twenty years to a beautiful woman and in no way feel rejected now or at anytime in my past. Of course this is not the 70's and thanks to our Country taking a very hard line stand throughout the world during the cold war era Communism is no longer a threat and Jane Fonda like her agenda is now irrelevant. But, the fact that Jane Fonda looked pretty hot in Barbarella ;) is not by itself justification to sing here praises or justify her actions in the 1970's.

MOWGLI
08-20-2004, 10:36
Oops...guess I'm feeling a little sensitive today. Probably feel my faith is something I don't like tampered with. Sorry.

Did you learn much from my Southern Baptist brothers? You mean they didn't convert you? :D Now I see what you mean with the face.

I am not very well versed with scripture, so I had a hard time discussing religion on their level. The Baptisits that taught me the most this year were the ones in my church softball league. They re-taught me how to play the outfield after a 15 year layoff. Man, those boys could hit the ball. They had me running all over the place! In the end, we were all beaten by the Presbyterians. Can't wait til next year.

SGT Rock
08-20-2004, 10:51
I know all about Mensa, I met the requirements over twenty years ago. And you clearly show the reason why I have no desire to join, the "I'm so smart, I'm in Mensa" mentality.

There are a few of us out there in the same league. Anyone ever hear of DENSA?

http://www.smart.net/~wisdom/quiztest/densquiz.htm

smokymtnsteve
08-20-2004, 10:54
I like GOOD coffee sometimes I even share it with a Baptist...
one must be tolerant.

Chappy
08-20-2004, 10:58
I am not very well versed with scripture, so I had a hard time discussing religion on their level. The Baptisits that taught me the most this year were the ones in my church softball league. They re-taught me how to play the outfield after a 15 year layoff. Man, those boys could hit the ball. They had me running all over the place! In the end, we were all beaten by the Presbyterians. Can't wait til next year.

All religious debates should be settled on the softball field! :)

MOWGLI
08-20-2004, 10:58
There are a few of us out there in the same league. Anyone ever hear of DENSA?

Yeah, I'm a charter member of that club. Maybe the meanest most insensitive thing I said to anyone during my thru-hike occured just north of Harpers Ferry on the climb to Weverton Cliffs. Hiking up the hill with Youngblood, several folks passed me going down the hill. Finally I said to one guy, "are you with a group", to which he replied, "Yeah, we're with the Mensa Society."

With that, I quickly shot back, "Well, did you figure it all out while you were up there?" That remark still kinda bothers me, but it does brings a grin to my face. There is definitely a good Little Bear and an evil Little Bear.

smokymtnsteve
08-20-2004, 10:59
All religious debates should be settled on the softball field! :)

good idea..as ball bats are readily available ;)

Chappy
08-20-2004, 11:17
There are a few of us out there in the same league. Anyone ever hear of DENSA?

http://www.smart.net/~wisdom/quiztest/densquiz.htm

DENSA test was too hard for me! ;)

boulder
08-20-2004, 12:03
blue jay, i think you hit the nail on the head. Others, inlcuding, for example, Joan Baez, went to N. Viet., but never got the attention or publicity of Fonda. Fonda seemed to represent, in the early 60s, the American "sex kitten." Her attraction seemed to be that so many guys, and I am guessing, some women, found her desirable. Thus, her "turning" on young men proved to be the ultimate betrayal. The hatred of her is so intense, and built on so mcuh misinformation and half truths. Gotta wonder why strong women, or rather those who stray from the mainstream "acceptable" roles, become the target for so much, often irrational hate. Did she make a mistake, maybe. Did she apologize repeatedly, yes. Will she ever be forgiven, probably never-despite having herself become a born again Christian. Just wondering how history would have treated a white person who went to Wounded Knee to denounce military actions there?

Connie
08-20-2004, 12:34
Because of her Barbarella movie, she was the "pinup girl".

Guys carried her picture. Then, she did Hanoi Jane.

Some guys committed suicide. She was their connection to home.

I don't think there is a vet that will tell you what the Bob Hope shows and the "pinup girl" means to them, but I will. Killing is against life, and against the life force. Men become impotent, temporarily most hope. But they don't know for sure, while the killing and the "effect" is going on. The "pinup" girl is an inspiration and a hope.

Jane Fonda hurt more men, than anyone before or since, because at least Toyko Rose was Japanese.

Jane Fonda knows what propaganda is. Jane Fonda knows the power of media. Jane Fonda is a traitor.

One guy here said she carried a microdot. I don't believe it.

No one had a higher security clearance than I did. I believe the CIA are professional liars and do not work for this country. We only pay one-fifth of their budget. We do not own the CIA.

Bob Hope is so great, and always will be remembered for greatness, because he took his troup of entertainers right next to the battle.

Look at the men. The camera shows the men. They look "dejected" then something happens during the show, and Bob Hope's jokes and his little troup of gorgeous entertainers got thru to the men. The "classic" is a man, who jumps up arms in the air "Woo Woo Wooooo!"

I was in a visual communication education major, at college, along with my Industrial Technology second major. That footage is a "classic" shown to illustrate the importance of "war propaganda".

Is "propaganda" all bad ? It depends.

sgtjinx
08-20-2004, 12:52
[QUOTE=boulder]blue jay, i think you hit the nail on the head. Others, inlcuding, for example, Joan Baez, went to N. Viet., but never got the attention or publicity of Fonda. Fonda seemed to represent, in the early 60s, the American "sex kitten." Her attraction seemed to be that so many guys, and I am guessing, some women, found her desirable. Thus, her "turning" on young men proved to be the ultimate betrayal. The hatred of her is so intense, and built on so mcuh misinformation and half truths. Gotta wonder why strong women, or rather those who stray from the mainstream "acceptable" roles, become the target for so much, often irrational hate. Did she make a mistake, maybe. Did she apologize repeatedly, yes. Will she ever be forgiven, probably never-despite having herself become a born again Christian. Just wondering how history would have treated a white person who went to Wounded Knee to denounce military actions there?


You also didn't tell that her Father (Henry Fonda) didn't talk to her for over 20 years. When they did "On Golden Pond" it was the 1st time they had talked to each other. She also was in the news again. Talking ***** again about the United States.

While I was in the service of our country. I learned at the fastest way to destory your enemy is to DIVIDE AND CONQUER!!!!

We are doing that to our own country now!! We as AMERICANS need to get our heads out of are asses. And stop tearing our country apart. I love my country and I am sick and tired of seeing this *****.

I almost died serving my country in 1989. It took me 4 months in a Army Hospital and one year to learn how to walk again. And I would do it all FU*KING AGAIN. If our country asks me too.


Sgt Jinx
U S Army ret
Ranger's Lead the Way!!!!!!!

JP
08-20-2004, 14:30
When I hiked a section in 72 I was deciding which service to join, my family was in all but the Air Force, Had friends in it and all the others. In 69 a friend of mine was KIA. A few years later a cousin was severly wounded and came back. He was in the 173rd.

On Sep.11 I was working out of town and heard the towers had been hit. My daughter was a flight attendent that flew out of Newark, I didnt know if she was OK till that night.My son was in the Marines stationed in Washington DC. I knew his unit did cross training with the New York fire dept. His job was rapid response to terrorist attack. A few days later I got word he was OK. I should have retired that year, it was delayed.

I had another cousin in the 82nd. I had looked forward to hiking Isle Royal with him and talking gear after his service was over and family obligations slowed down. But he was KIA last October. His sister will be going to Iraq this November. My other cousins are safe at home for now.

So thanks to all who have been praying, dont stop. I plan to start section hikeing next summer, hopefully with my former Jarhead son.

Blue Jay
08-20-2004, 14:53
While I was in the service of our country. I learned at the fastest way to destory your enemy is to DIVIDE AND CONQUER!!!!
We are doing that to our own country now!! We as AMERICANS need to get our heads out of are asses. And stop tearing our country apart. I love my country and I am sick and tired of seeing this *****.

Ain't that the truth. We have main fronts in so many places, Iraq, Afganistan, Korea, and many others. How many countries do we have troops stationed, you active military boys must know? Our armed forces could not be more divided. Bush truly needs to stop tearing this country and many others that we are "liberating" apart. I love my country and also am sick and tired of this.

Connie
08-20-2004, 15:48
The oath I made inducted into active military service is to protect this country against enemies foreign and domestic.

I am faithful to my oath.

The claim to be a "born again Christian" is being abused by Bush, Fonda, and right over here in a little town in Montana, Valier, MT. In Valier, two Albert Pike masons claim to be "born again Christians" parroting phrases they heard, elsewhere from Christians.

When Bush smilingly says "faith based religions" during his State of the Union address, look at the faces of the armed forces personnel ! How would you like to be in Iraq, have doubts, and ask to speak with the Chaplain and the Chaplain is a lesbian Wicca ? Most "recruits" are from the southern states, where there is a lot of "fundamentalist christianity". Think what it means to those serving military personnel. The federal government says all faith based religions can and do have serving Chaplains in the armed forces.

You think it's funny ? The number of suicides in Iraq is not funny.

In Valier, MT one man claiming to be a "born again Christian" is a murderer. The other is a rapist, and a child molester.

This is just their "cynicism" speaking: someone will believe a lie, if told often.

Never jailed. Never charged.

That town is the HQ of Albert Pike masons, for the State of Montana.

The leader has the real estate office.

A businessman in that town is his "second". He makes and modifies weapons, and keeps "the good old boys" around here supplied with deadly weapons.

Most people know the "KKK" is from Albert Pike masons. Most people think that is about killing one race. Most people do not know Albert Pike's "mentor" Mazzini and Albert Pike "authored" the NWO plan that laid out the origin and purpose of both the so-called "communist" party and the socalled "marxist" party, which are both only incidental to the overall plan.

The things that just don't make sense, we see and hear about, are explained fully by knowing that plan.

The ordinary and decent people need to know.

We are not a people that seeks only the "comforts of life": we have been "sold" on this idea, since WWII and television, to make us into a weak and complacent people.

I happen to think it is a good to be strong: hiking is a part of that strength.

It is also important to exercize that muscle of meat between our ears !

weary
08-20-2004, 16:55
The oath I made inducted into active military service is to protect this country against enemies foreign and domestic.

I am faithful to my oath.

The claim to be a "born again Christian" is being abused by Bush, Fonda, and right over here in a little town in Montana, Valier, MT. In Valier, two Albert Pike masons claim to be "born again Christians" parroting phrases they heard, elsewhere from Christians.

When Bush smilingly says "faith based religions" during his State of the Union address, look at the faces of the armed forces personnel ! How would you like to be in Iraq, have doubts, and ask to speak with the Chaplain and the Chaplain is a lesbian Wicca ? Most "recruits" are from the southern states, where there is a lot of "fundamentalist christianity". Think what it means to those serving military personnel. The federal government says all faith based religions can and do have serving Chaplains in the armed forces.

You think it's funny ? The number of suicides in Iraq is not funny.

In Valier, MT one man claiming to be a "born again Christian" is a murderer. The other is a rapist, and a child molester.

This is just their "cynicism" speaking: someone will believe a lie, if told often.

Never jailed. Never charged.

That town is the HQ of Albert Pike masons, for the State of Montana.

The leader has the real estate office.

A businessman in that town is his "second". He makes and modifies weapons, and keeps "the good old boys" around here supplied with deadly weapons.

Most people know the "KKK" is from Albert Pike masons. Most people think that is about killing one race. Most people do not know Albert Pike's "mentor" Mazzini and Albert Pike "authored" the NWO plan that laid out the origin and purpose of both the so-called "communist" party and the socalled "marxist" party, which are both only incidental to the overall plan.

The things that just don't make sense, we see and hear about, are explained fully by knowing that plan.

The ordinary and decent people need to know.

We are not a people that seeks only the "comforts of life": we have been "sold" on this idea, since WWII and television, to make us into a weak and complacent people.

I happen to think it is a good to be strong: hiking is a part of that strength.

It is also important to exercize that muscle of meat between our ears !

Connie. You certainly are a true believer. But in what, your messages don't make clear. I don't know if the rapists and murderers you mention are born again Christians or not. Nor realistically do you. But if there is such a thing as being born again, (I never have experienced it) those who believe in Christ's words certainly know that such a thing is possible.

Weary

smokymtnsteve
08-20-2004, 17:10
"Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam or Marxism) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and the hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

weary
08-20-2004, 17:57
"Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam or Marxism) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and the hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

Yeah. But keep in mind that ABBEY was a litterer -- the only offense that a small, but growing movement of thinking people consider to warrant the death penalty.

Weary

smokymtnsteve
08-20-2004, 18:12
Yeah. But keep in mind that ABBEY was a litterer -- the only offense that a small, but growing movement of thinking people consider to warrant the death penalty.

Weary

only beer cans by the side of the paved road..

"where they belong" E.A.

Dances with Mice
08-20-2004, 18:39
Connie - I feel you, man, I know every word you've written is naught but the absolute truth, I'm so with you, cousin, that we're like two peas in a pod.

Look brother, I'm speaking from the heart now: When your doctor prescribed those meds he meant for you to stay on them. Understand? I know it's tough but you gotta keep taking them. Get the scripts refilled, this is serious stuff.

And by the way? What kind of heat do you pack when you're hiking?

weary
08-20-2004, 19:03
only beer cans by the side of the paved road..

"where they belong" E.A.

Until we can get the judicial system reformed and a proper penalty enacted, my advice to persistent litterers to throw their trash on the neatest lawns they can find. That way someone is sure to pick it up and take it to the dump.

By coincidence, that advice also keeps the trash off my cluttered lawn.

Weary

smokymtnsteve
08-20-2004, 19:17
Until we can get the judicial system reformed and a proper penalty enacted, my advice to persistent litterers to throw their trash on the neatest lawns they can find. That way someone is sure to pick it up and take it to the dump.

By coincidence, that advice also keeps the trash off my cluttered lawn.

Weary


:D...great idea..Abbey Lives!

steve hiker
08-20-2004, 21:08
You've become a real good cheapshot artist! None you feel it necessary to take on the Baptists...is there nothing you can keep your mouth closed on?
Hey, at least he didn't drag Hitler into the room like Mt. Dew.

steve hiker
08-20-2004, 21:14
The Baptisits that taught me the most this year were the ones in my church softball league. They re-taught me how to play the outfield after a 15 year layoff.
I went to a Baptist school until the sixth grade. I remember my second grade teacher telling us one day that if we didn't go to church every week we'd go to hell, where we'd burn on these red hot rocks. The Bible said so. Really instilled a respect of Baptists in me.:rolleyes:

Mountain Dew
08-21-2004, 03:11
Chappy, You were exactly right when you thought my denomination, state, and university were slammed. They were slammed even if the author of that post didn't really mean it. Still...it's disgusting. I take a lot of pride in things I love and those three things I love alot.

Alligator, OK pay close attention here. :) Better attention than I paid to one of your previous posts ! :D I misunderstood what you said and took it the wrong way. I'm at 100% at fault and I trully apologize. I can also understand your thoughts on Mensa. I would never throw that fact out there to elevate myself, but I had thought you called into question my IQ. hahaa To answer your question...NO, my IQ has never been called into question...well my third grade teacher did, but that is another story. And to think I pride myself in my reading comprehension skills ! OOPS I didn't join for years untill after I thru-hiked. I retook the test and joined. Many of their members are just like you described, but the whole apple isn't rotten. You'd be surprised how many of them are into nature conservation. As for the Quote comment you made. I do in fact know how to use the quotes the way they were intended to be used, but simply choose not to. That way takes up too much space. Anyways....I just wanted to show that I can freely admit when I am clearly wrong.

Sgt. Jinx, :clap NICE entry's. Question for you: name me the greatest military company in U.S. history. Also ...you notice how a couple of these posters seem to almost be apologizing for Fonda as well as taking up for her. Setting the record straight about the facts is one thing, but some of these entry's would NEVER be spoken infront of a group of Vets.

JP.... Don't worry....alot of us out here pray for our troops despite the fact that blue wacko said me doing it made him sick in a previous post. Oh and if you deny it Wacko I'll go copy/paste it here for you. :bse

Connie... I'll also add ( For steve KKK's sake) that more troops come from Texas than from any other state. Even if you take into account the troops/population factor. And he thinks it's a bad state. Very Patriotic sounding to me.

steve hiker, If you would read carefully you'd see that I didn't mention hitler first or in a good light. That was the blue wacko He used hitler and teddy "i kill women" kennedy to make his points earlier. Don't act as if you didn't jump at the chance to merely type hitlers name on WB steve hiker...or should I say Hitler Hiker. Anybody curious about steve's racist comments can search under his screen name and find them. I clearly remember him calling blacks monkeys and N*****s. As a matter of fact... lets hear who on WB agree's with steve's racist views of blacks ? Please speak up now. Steve aka hitler hiker...you stand alone on WB RACIST.

Blue Wacko...you back peddled so fast that you fell all over your bio/chemical debate. The same debate that you seemed to argue with nobody for numerous posts. First you claim that no such device exists then when I say they do you come back with..."OH YEAH they have one at my lab, but they don't work....".... hahahahaahahaaaa You idiot. Your believability factor is zero.

SGT Rock
08-21-2004, 10:29
Someone made the observation on this thread that the original intent of the thread was gone and it should be renamed to "The WhiteBlaz in Wartime" I tend to agree, but think the original thread had merrit to so I split the difference by splitting th thread. I may not have done a perfect job as some posts from the old thread may belong here, and some posts from here may belong over there. I claim bing only human to that. Rant to your heart's desire here.

Jack Tarlin
08-21-2004, 13:18
Hey, Rock....

A quick run-thru of this ridiculous thread now reveals that we're discussing lesbian Wiccans, the evils of freemasonry, and the new World Order. Pretty soon we'll be moving on to discussions of Black helicopters, Nepalese UN troops training in Colorado, and how the plane crash at the Pentagon on September 11th was faked.

Whatta load of horse flop.

Thank you for splitting this thread. Of course, if people wish to discuss politics here they have every right to do so, but it's kinda nice to see someone (i.e . YOU, Rock) gently reminding people what this site is all about.

And for you folks who really wanna discuss creationism, the Pledge of the Flag, Michael Moore, John Kerry's medals, Rosie O'Donnell's agenda for our impressionable children, or anything else along those lines, well, have a good time. And if the conversation on these and other topics isn't lively enough at Whiteblaze, keep in mind there are about 400,000 other sites where they go back and forth on this bull**** each and every day.

Anyway, thanx Rock, for getting the train back on the track.

Dances with Mice
08-21-2004, 13:52
Rant to your heart's desire here.

Why it's as if I just heard a voice from above a'callin' my name: "Mr. Dances with Mice? Sir? Top wants some rants, would you mind leading off?"

First let's start with this whole thing about making fun of Texas instutitions of higher tuitions. Just sit back down now, Hudson, I got your back here bro, me and you against the world, ok? Being a graduate of Takes Us Ayin Eyum I am seriously offended when someone makes fun of any college in TX that ain't mine. Anybody makin' fun of some other school is in serious violation of the National Laws of Texas. I would never allow anyone to make fun of any TX school, not even that little rinky-dink, rat infested, prep school in Austin. And unless Hud's alma mater has a football team, under the National Laws of Texas it's not even legally recognized as a college anyway. So back off.

How'd I do there, Hudson? Me and you oughta go fishing sometime. Except we have to bring another Baptist along, so I have to take both you and Chappy. Y'all know why, right?

But that's not what I really wanted to rant about. And I know you're probably asking yourselves right now "Gee, Mr. Dances with Mice? Sir? What would you like to rant about?" I am so glad you asked.

And the answer, of course, is Sports Juggling. Rather like my good friend Brother Connie, I do believe that Sports Juggling is part of the Albert Pike Masonic Lodges' Conspiracy for World Domination. Can I get an "AMEN"?

And I know you're probably asking yourselves right now "Gee, Mr. Dances with Mice? Sir? What does Sports Juggling have to do with the Appalachian Trail?" And if you are then you are just another mindless, clueless victim of the World Wide Illuminati Conspiracy to deflect attention from the very cornerstone of their plan for World Domination! Is it just a "coincidence" that the very first Sports Juggling competition will be held during the USA's "election" year? Is it just a "coincidence" that while the nations "attention" is being focused on an "election" whose main "debate" centers on something that happened in a war ONE GENERATION AGO? A war that the "Candidate's" own "Party" adamantly argued just 8 and 12 years ago that service in that War didn't really matter and that dodging service was just as honorable as going into battle? Is it just "coincidence" that many of my "sentences" don't have "subjects"?

I think not!

And I know you're thinking to yourselves right now "Gee, Mr. Dances with Mice? Sir? Since you've proved so convincingly, and inarguably, that the "national election" is merely a cover-up for Sports Juggling.....what the heck is Sports Juggling?"

Well, good. Let's forget all the debate about "politics" and turn our attention now to the most serious issue that confronts mankind in the 20th Century. Or 21st. Whatever. I never can keep that straight.

Juggling, as I'm sure you all know, is an art form best expressed by either circus clowns or sequin vested performers in Las Vegas stage shows. The Shrine Circus clowns with their little cars, big shoes, red foam noses, and water squirting lapel flowers represent the highest attainable degree in the Masonic Lodge. Thus juggling is linked inextricably to the Illuminati's New World Order! And the until now secret 34th Order of the Lodge is graduation to sequined costumes and juggling onstage in, where else, "SIN CITY"! Can there be any doubt that juggling is an art form directly linked to Satanism?

I think not.

And now someone wants to change juggling from an art into a sport? This is sacrilege within an already God-less art! What could be worse?

And I know you're probably thinking to yourselves right now "Gee, Mr. Dances with Mice? Sir? What can we do about this?" And the answer, of course, is both education and taking action! So start by previewing the website of the so-called "World Juggling Federation" - and if World Domination was NOT their intent, why would they choose that name? For your own protection, spit between your fingers, turn around twice, and make the sign of the cross before entering, although I'm sure you already know that - http://www.jugglingcompetition.com/

Notice how their own rules state "No sequins or vests allowed." This is sure to upset the entire Balance of the Universe!

And take action! Call 386-532-2506 and leave the following message:
"Stop Your Attempt at World Domination by Sports Juggling!"

My name is Dances with Mice. Thank you for your support.
--------------------------

(I am not affiliated with W J F nor will I be attending that event, I just pulled the topic out of thin air, so to speak. And don't call that phone number, I just typed in random numbers. Or, hell, go ahead and call. Why not?)

Fiddleback
08-21-2004, 15:57
Wow! At least there is one thing we all can agree upon...


You'll never see Bush or Cheney exploiting their military records or throwing their Viet Nam medals away...


FB

smokymtnsteve
08-21-2004, 16:08
Hey, Rock....

A quick run-thru of this ridiculous thread now reveals that we're discussing lesbian Wiccans, ....

Whatta load of horse flop.

.


I have some lesbian wiccan friends , they are real nice folks, they hike,
some real nice Peaceful folk, we get together once a year and make Lye soap...they have a nice little organic farm..real earth friendly folks,,,they can always use a load of horse flop.

Tha Wookie
08-21-2004, 23:01
I have some lesbian wiccan friends , they are real nice folks, they hike,
some real nice Peaceful folk, we get together once a year and make Lye soap...they have a nice little organic farm..real earth friendly folks,,,they can always use a load of horse flop.

LOL!!!!:banana

Rocalousas
08-22-2004, 01:56
I see Mountain Dew's been logged on for awhile but hasn't said a word. Probably tanking himself up with wine before hitting the keyboard. :banana

Mountain Dew
08-22-2004, 02:37
Dances with Mice... I know exactly why you'd have to bring Chappy along, but in my case that wouldn't be a problem as I drink about twice a year. Nice inside joke though... one of my favorites. Although I'm a U.T. fan I do have a great great etc. grandfather who was one of the founding fathers of Texas A&M and served as it's first President I believe. Great school.

Rocalousas, I drink about twice a year....maybe. You may be thinking of lone wolf. He says that he gets tanked before posting sometimes.

Noggin
08-22-2004, 02:45
I have some lesbian wiccan friends , they are real nice folks, they hike, some real nice Peaceful folk, we get together once a year and make Lye soap...they have a nice little organic farm..real earth friendly folks,,,they can always use a load of horse flop.
I bet Wookie's run into quite a few like that lately, along the northern coast of California. :D

smokymtnsteve
08-22-2004, 10:12
I bet Wookie's run into quite a few like that lately, along the northern coast of California. :D

yea the coast of CA is a great place....

USA OUT OF HUMBOLT COUNTY! :D

BooBoo
08-22-2004, 12:34
All war discussion aside, has anyone thought about Bush's environmental record? I kinda figured that hikers would want to protect the environment as a way of protecting the AT. BTW: Frmr Sec. of the Interior Bruce Babbit(Clinton admin) is an avid hiker. I saw some AT book that had a pic of him attempting the 1/2 gallon challenge with some hikers there in PA. It would be a cold day in h*ll when bush's Sec. of the Interior does the same thing.

Dances with Mice
08-22-2004, 12:42
Dances with Mice... Although I'm a U.T. fan


Oh, I'm sorry. I'll try not to use so many polysyllabic, uh, I mean "big" words.

---Ahluh y'all furreners jess keep on walkin' by now. This thang right cheer's a Texas thang 'tween Hudson'n'me. Yew wouldn't unnerstand. Ain't nothin but love.---

Mountain Dew
08-23-2004, 05:32
BooBoo... As a hiker I strongly support the enviroment, but I don't vote based on a single subject. BooBoo, "It would be a cold day in h*ll when bush's Sec. of the Interior does the same thing." -- you know his name even or anything about his track record ? I'm just hoping that he isn't STEALING goverment documents by sneaking them out of the records room in his socks. Sound familiar ? :sun

boulder
08-23-2004, 06:23
MD, Bush's Secretary of the Interior is Gale Norton.

She supports the idea that taxpayers be required to compensate polluters and developers to comply with environmental laws ("takings"), and lauds as "positive" the reduced environmental protection that would result from such a policy;

She supports oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and crafted a defense for this position in the mid-1980s when she worked for James Watt at the Interior Department;

She has asserted that the Surface Mining Act and the Endangered Species Act are unconstitutional, and embraced an extremely narrow view of the Commerce Clause under which most other environmental statutes also would likely be unconstitutional;

She is a proponent of industry policing itself (self-auditing) instead of federal enforcement of environmental laws;

She has a long record of opposing federal land and wildlife stewardship and instead favors logging, drilling, grazing and mining on public lands.

Having lived under her as AG in CO, I can assure you, many, republicans and dems. unlike, where truely concerned with her taking over the Dept. of Interior.

All that and no mention of her being held in contempt of court over failure of the BIA to account for millions of missing royalities due Native Americans for resource extraction on their lands. No wonder dozens of Indian Nations opposed her confimation as Secretary.

The Old Fhart
08-23-2004, 08:48
To see where Gale Norton gets her support and to see what environmentalists think of her, check: http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0109-07.htm and
http://defenders.spacely.com/alerts/AlertsMain.cfm?AlertID=8&ORGID=SNNF

sgtjinx
08-23-2004, 13:26
All war discussion aside, has anyone thought about Bush's environmental record? I kinda figured that hikers would want to protect the environment as a way of protecting the AT. BTW: Frmr Sec. of the Interior Bruce Babbit(Clinton admin) is an avid hiker. I saw some AT book that had a pic of him attempting the 1/2 gallon challenge with some hikers there in PA. It would be a cold day in h*ll when bush's Sec. of the Interior does the same thing.
Like I said before!!! You better start hiking the AT NOW!!! Because we EVIL CONSERVATIVES are going to make it into a parking lot for our SUV'S. :bse

Blue Jay
08-23-2004, 13:47
JP.... Don't worry....alot of us out here pray for our troops despite the fact that blue wacko said me doing it made him sick in a previous post. Oh and if you deny it Wacko I'll go copy/paste it here for you. :bse

Blue WackoFirst you claim that no such device exists then when I say they do you come back with..."OH YEAH they have one at my lab, but they don't work....".... hahahahaahahaaaa You idiot. Your believability factor is zero.

I was not sick because you prayed. You just make me sick period. You claimed that there was a device that analyzed for chemical and biological weapons. You were just to stupid to realize a generic detector does not analyze. Since you lie about being a member of Mensa, what else are you lying about. Baltimore Jack, why are you still reading this thread?

Jack Tarlin
08-23-2004, 14:42
Blue Jay:

1. Yeah, I'm still reading it. I read everything here.

2. No, I'm not interested in contributing to it. Oddly enough, I've got more
significant demands on my time.

3. But the rest of you guys have fun without me.

Mountain Dew
08-24-2004, 05:03
Blue Wacko :bse , "...I was not sick because you prayed. You just make me sick period" ..hhmm let's see what you said about me praying about our troops when I heard about the war starting while I was hiking. Blue Wacko, "Oh, you listened on your headphones and prayed. I think I'm going to vomit." Once again somebody has proven you to be a liar without even enough sense to go back and edit your previous entry in an attempt to cover your lying ass. EXPOSED !

Blue Wacko, "You claimed that there was a device that analyzed for chemical and biological weapons. You were just to stupid to realize a generic detector does not analyze. " ---I went back and looked at my posts. I NEVER said that the device of which I spoke could "analyze" anything. Before you go off calling me stupid make sure you have the facts right. You were the one that stated that such a device didn't exist and then when I said one did you went on to say claim that "your lab" had one right after claiming one didn't exist !!! EXPOSED !!! O.K. so start by showing everybody a quote from the post where I claimed the device analyzed chemical and biological weapons. You won't because you can't.

Blue Wacko, "Since you lie about being a member of Mensa, what else are you lying about."--- Look.... I and many others on this site have shown you your very own words that prove that you lie on here all the time. Hell, you aren't even smart about doing it either. You will make a statement and then turn around on the same thread and claim to have never said it. I have shown in this thread alone that you have lied and made up things. Jack did it to you in a previous post on this thread as well. You have the nerve to call me a liar ? Not only are you a constant liar you are an idiot about it. The last guy that I knew that lied in such a stupid manner was Elwood. bwahahahaaaa :clap Good one Blue Wacko

Mountain Dew
08-24-2004, 05:10
Boulder, unless you are also BooBoo I think he can answer questions for himself thanks. :welcome

boulder
08-24-2004, 06:48
MD,
Perhaps if you'd like a private correspondence with BooBoo, you might want to consider a private message. My understanding of a public forum, is that it is, in fact, public.

Blue Jay
08-24-2004, 07:29
Hudson, if you were a member of Mensa there was a simple way to prove it. I didn't think that you would. The only thing you have exposed is you own ignorance. The fact remains, no state agency can detect chemical or biological weapons. You and Bush are very good at diversion around facts, I'll give you both that much. Hell, a deserter (AWOL is under 30 days, George was missing for 8 months) going after the war record of a decorated war veteran. You both clearly have no shame.

sgtjinx
08-24-2004, 14:37
Hudson, if you were a member of Mensa there was a simple way to prove it. I didn't think that you would. The only thing you have exposed is you own ignorance. The fact remains, no state agency can detect chemical or biological weapons. You and Bush are very good at diversion around facts, I'll give you both that much. Hell, a deserter (AWOL is under 30 days, George was missing for 8 months) going after the war record of a decorated war veteran. You both clearly have no shame.My wife works for the Florida State Health Department. She has seen the NBC that is (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical) equipment. She was training for a chemical attack when she had seen the equipment.

I also have trained with NBC equipment while I was in the Army.

Kerry should be tried as a WAR CRIMINAL for the things, he said he did.

Sgt Jinx:cool:

weary
08-24-2004, 16:33
....
Kerry should be tried as a WAR CRIMINAL for the things, he said he did.

Sgt Jinx:cool:

I'm fasinated by the Bush supporters who have only one line charges against Kerry. Not one of them have presented any facts, any background, any logical arguments.

I'm beginning to think American politics have degenerated into a contest between reason and slogans, which is sad because in a society with a television-induced 15 second attention span, slogans will always win.

I truly worry that we have trained ourselves to be a society incapable of thinking, incapable of understanding facts, incapable of separating truth from fiction.

Weary

Jack Tarlin
08-24-2004, 18:55
Actually, Weary, a lot of the charges against Kerry contain more than one line. Here are a few lines for you:

If Kerry didn't wish to have his war record discussed and debated, and if he resents having to suddenly defend it, then he shouldn't have elected to make his military background the cornerstone of his campaign. He didn't need to arrive in Boston Harbor like MacArthur returning to the Philippines. He didn't have to do the shameless "John Kerry, reporting for duty!" shtick at the convention. He didn't need to bring up his military service every three minutes.....did you even see his address at the convention, Weary? He spent a great deal of it talking about his wartime experiences and spent perhaps twenty seconds talking about his record in the Senate. Could this possibly be because his Senate record is extraordinarily bereft of any distinction?

The President took months of flak over his service and attendance record in the National Guard. His campaign ultimately released something like 300 pages of official documents dealing with his service. To date, the Kerry campaign has produced virtually ZERO official documents, including the medical records that would shed light on the severity of his injuries. And speaking of which, with no disrespect to the Senator, I appreciate his service when so many avoided it, and I appreciate that he spent some of his brief Vietnam tour in harm's way, but it's starting to look like I spent more time under a doctor's supervision as a result of collegiate Ultimate Frisbee injuries than John Kerry did after getting three purple hearts. If he wants to put this unpleasantness to rest, all he has to do is start coughing up some official documents and records, as the Bush campaign did. If he's not willing to do this, he should stop whining. But if he's going to base his campaign on his 35-year-old decorations----which gee, I thought he once threw away because he hated what they represented----then he better be able to give some straight answers when folks start demanding the particulars on where and how he got 'em.

Weary, the simple fact is that Kerry's war record wouldn't even be an issue had he not made his service the cornerstone of his campaign. And he did this for two reasons: He thought it'd make him look good compared to the record of Bush in the Guard and Cheyney as a draft dodger. He also felt that wrapping himself in flag and uniform would draw attention away from his remarkably unaccomplished record in the U.S. Senate.

I should also remind you, Weary, that Kerry is on record as defending Clinton years ago from draft-dodging charges---Kerry said, in no uncertain terms, that what one did or did not do during the Vietnam era has no relevance to one's fitness for public service today. He sure is treating things differently today.

I gotta tell ya, Weary, I'm a lifelong Democrat who is now a registered Independent. I've voted for a Republican once in my life (McCain in the 2000
primary). But Mr. Kerry is not doing a whole helluva lot to inspire much confidence in this undecided voter, and I'm sick of his endless harping on his four month military career, and I'm even sicker of his whining about those who have the audacity to question him about it. HE was the one who made this an issue in the first place, and not his critics. By putting Bush on the fire about HIS record, Kerry invited scrutiny of his own. Too bad the scrutiny is more than he bargained for.

(And note, Weary, I haven't even talked about his record after he returned from Southeast Asia. The man is trying to capitalize on his record as as a war hero, in spite of of the fact that he made his public name by denouncing his comrades as rapists, murderers and thugs, and compared his wartime brothers to Genghis Khan. The question arises: Is Kerry proud of his war record or not? He sure seems intent on reminding us about it every time he opens his mouth. Well, he sure didn't seem too proud of it when he tossed away his decorations, palled around with the loathsome Jane Fonda, and accused his "brothers" of being war criminals while many of them still languished in prison. In short, Weary, I wish he'd shut the hell up about Vietnam, and start talking about his record in the Senate and what he has to offer us. I'm tired of hearing about his military background, and to be perfectly honest, this alleged "warrior" background ain't exactly his strongest point. In fact, it's turning out to be quite the opposite).

Well. Weary wanted more than one-line commentary on his candidate. I hope he enjoyed it.

weary
08-24-2004, 20:31
Many thanks to Jack for his lengthy post. I wish a bit more of it had contained facts, rather than a rehash of the right wing talk shows.

Kerry obviously brought up his war record to contrast it with that of Bush -- and most of the Bush administrative team. It's a legetimate record, when contrasted with a president who was missing in whatever action was occurring in Alabama, while he was supposed to have been in the National Guard. It's legitimate when his vice president and his secretary of defense both managed to escape Vietnam.

But I agree with Jack. It wasn't a wise decision by Kerry -- given Bush's successful trashing of McCain and his role in trashing Senator Cleland, who happened to have lost two legs and an arm in combat. Were those injuries sufficent, Jack?

There has not been a word of responsible evidence that Kerry was other than a hero in Vietnam. What we have is a multimillion dollar campaign financed by Bush's buddies to cast doubt on that heroism. It obviously is working if someone as wise as Baltimore Jack buys into it.

Weary, who served in the Korean War and never left his post to engage in a political campaign.

Mountain Dew
08-25-2004, 04:44
Boulder, You simply missed the point I was trying to make. BooBoo was bashing Bush's Sec. of the Interior and his record. I thought it quite possible and likely that he did this without even the basic knowledge of the mans name/ record so that is why I asked. Just because this is a "public" forum doesn't mean that it's alright to go around answering other peoples questions. It is called respect. Try having some would you. Although, if you feel the need to run to the rescue of a fellow liberal who won't or can't answer simple questions then by all means blabber away. :D

Blue Wacko :bse , Are you STILL talking ? :-? I don't find it necessary or warranted to prove anything to somebody as ignorant as you. Crazy's like you often go off the deep end and end up making the headlines in some way. Like a ticking time bomb of hate and ignorance. :jump

Blue Wacko :bse :jump , "The fact remains, no state agency can detect chemical or biological weapons. You and Bush are very good at diversion around facts, I'll give you both that much." --- Sgt Jinx, "My wife works for the Florida State Health Department. She has seen the NBC that is (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical) equipment. She was training for a chemical attack when she had seen the equipment. I also have trained with NBC equipment while I was in the Army."

OOPS Blue Wacko !!! bwahahahaaa o.k. So I have told you how nation wide fire departments are getting detectors from the military declassified material that is now being prodeced by private company's with the proper contracts to make them and now Sgt. Jinx is telling you they exist on the state level as well so what now ? bwahahaaa I love it. I can't wait to see your response to this. Does YOUR lab also have this equipment ? bwahahahaaa EXPOSED ! Just do me a favor.....when you finally lose it and decide that you hate the goverment and it's people so much that you just have to do something about it....scratch me off of your list ! You fit the profile perfectly wacko.... :D

Weary, "It's a legetimate record, when contrasted with a president who was missing in whatever action was occurring in Alabama, while he was supposed to have been in the National Guard." --- I love how you feel the need to qualify Kerry's record because you know it's flawed. That's trully funny.

Weary, "There has not been a word of responsible evidence that Kerry was other than a hero in Vietnam" --- 1. What about how he once claimed that rapes, murders, and fire setting to towns was wide spread and has now backed way off those statements. 2. What about the fact that he claimed that he was in Cambodia at a certain time and that he knew he was there because it was "burned" into his memory, BUT now records (facts Weary) show that he was wrong eerrrr lying and he has even admitted that he wasn't there.

Weary, "It's legitimate when his vice president and his secretary of defense both managed to escape Vietnam." --- And was it o.k. when slick willy aka clinton did the same ? I'm sure you'd start stuttering if i asked you that in person. :D

Weary, "Weary, who served in the Korean War and never left his post to engage in a political campaign."--- I'm shocked that you would take such a fact based shot at Kerry like that.

The FACT is.....many times people hear or are shown the facts and they have become so blind that they wont except the facts if they don't agree with their stance. I can acknowledge Bush's flaws left and right, but you seem so blind to facts when presented with them Weary. What a shame.... :cool:

Blue Jay
08-25-2004, 07:53
Hudson, you will always be #1 on my list. Jinx and his Aunt Tilly are using the same piece of crap that you are calling a detector. The following comes from the July 2004 issue of Findings and Recommendations of the APHL (The Association of Public Health Laboratories).
- Only 8 state public health laboratories have any type CHEMICAL terrorism response in place.
- No state has any type of biological terrorism response in place.
- Most state reported that they knew of stockpiles of industrial and agricultural chemicals in their state, but did not know if there were chemical weapons in their state.
- 39 states reported that there laboratories were not prepared to even accept samples that might contain a chemical or biological agent.
- 25 states that conduct CHEMICAL (not biological or weapons) analyses reported that personal protective equipment was not adequate.
- 38 states reported that they were not at all adequately staffed.

So much for the Bush BioDefence plan.

Again from APHL:
The APHL hasbeen unable to identify a lead civilian or federal agency responsible for developing methods for environmental testing in the event of chemical weapons attack. The EPA has the most relavant expertise to support it, however there is no EPA office, program, or activity currently developing environmental test protocols in the event of chemical or biological terrorism. The AHPL calls upon the Department of Homeland Security to evaluate these gaps and delegate responsibility immediately. There has been no response from Homeland Security.

Oh, one question. So, Hudson have you ever actually voted in a federal election? Answer carefully as this is a matter of public record. You can't go back and edit this one out, like I am too stupid (or ethical) to do.

Skeemer
08-25-2004, 07:55
I don't know if Baltimore Jack's post was a rehash of the right wing talk shows as I don't listen to them (like Weary obviously does) but it made so much sense that I wish I'd said it. I also wish the Democrats had a candidate I could get behind...one that values the environment and individual rights without flip flopping on everything just to get votes...you know one that has some genuine character and principles.

I think what did it for me was when he got that millionaire trial lawyer as a running mate...to think that a guy like Edwards could be in line for the top job makes me shutter.

It will be nice to be out hiking in September and not listening to both sides bull****.

boulder
08-25-2004, 07:56
MD, we may disagree on the nature and purpose of a public forum, but I should mention that most public forums, including this one, have in place ways to personally address members should you only want their responses. However, comments, once posted on a public forum, are fair game. After all, that is why we are all having this discussion. Someone else started it and we all jumped in.

I am puzzled with your focus on "facts" while continuing to call the Secretary of Interior a "he." Perhaps you should re-read my post. That is the beauty of a public forum-we can all learn some things.

You would, I believe, find nothing disrepectful in the tone of my post. I find it sad that I can't say that about yours. But that, of course, is the risk one takes when participating in a public forum.

Of course this type of discussion is probably pointless, but should you wish to discuss Norton's environmental record, I'd be happy to engage you over those facts.

Cheers.

shades of blue
08-25-2004, 08:40
The "millionaire lawyer" is my senator, by the way....he worked in a textile mill to get through college (like myself). Unlike some of the others...Kerry, Bush, cheney, at least he knows what it is like to have been poor and to work at a physically demanding job. Kerry IS pro environment. Even if he wasn't, at least he's not anti-environment like the current administration. Is he perfect, probably not. Anyway...time to go to work.

Alligator
08-25-2004, 09:00
Hey MD, here's some help. Secretary of the Interior Gale Norton. Whatever your opinion of her, it would be nice to get her gender correct.

Which of the following land management agencies are also currently run by women?
Bureau of land management.
National Park Service.
US Department of Agriculture.
US Forest Service.

Skeemer
08-25-2004, 10:03
Some good points Shades but I guess I'm just fed up with liberal politics. If you think either side gives a rats ass about you or me you're more naive than I thought. It's all about power...the party in office has so much power...like appointments and pork barrel spending. They'll say and do anything to get your vote to get that power. And, Kerry wears it on his sleeve...it's so obvious...he'll say or do anything that he thinks that will get him elected. And, McCain comes the closest to being the opposite.

And, that's my problelm with trial lawyers. They go on TV and act like they're there for the victim. They are nothing but ambulance chasers. You and I know why they're there....the $$$$ A used car salesman has more integrity than a trial lawyer. Keep Edwards in your state, I don't want him.

BTW, Kerry and Edwards both talk like we're owed everything...like health care. The only thing the government owes me is my social security and that's because I worked and was forced to pay into it for years. If given the choice, I would have invested that money in a profitable corporation.

Chappy
08-25-2004, 10:13
[QUOTE=weary]
But I agree with Jack. It wasn't a wise decision by Kerry -- given Bush's successful trashing of McCain and his role in trashing Senator Cleland, who happened to have lost two legs and an arm in combat. Were those injuries sufficent, Jack?QUOTE]

Weary, I think Senator Cleland was actually working on a radio relay station and his injuries were caused when he bent down to pick up a grenade dropped by a fellow soldier. I'm not trying to denigrate his service, just trying to point out his injuries weren't caused during combat. I could be wrong.

sgtjinx
08-25-2004, 10:49
Fu*k it!! Let's just blow the whole world up!! And give women the use of fire first!!!!:bse :bse :bse

Blue Jay
08-25-2004, 10:50
Yes, Bush trashed the war records of Cleland, McCain, Kerry. He's the only wartime president who cut vet benefits. He is a disserter. Now to win an election, he's throwing some crumbs to the national guard. He gave them nothing for the last few years, knowing he was going to throw them in. Yet some vets still support him. I simply cannot understand it. It might have something to do with the Democrats simply being so pathetic they cannot win an election even when they win an election. Sometimes I think they are simply there as a diversion, like the guys who used to fight Hulk Hogan or the Generals playing the Globetrotters. We're just so dumb we never figure out the scam.

weary
08-25-2004, 11:17
[
Weary, "It's a legetimate record, when contrasted with a president who was missing in whatever action was occurring in Alabama, while he was supposed to have been in the National Guard." --- I love how you feel the need to qualify Kerry's record because you know it's flawed. That's trully funny. :

Until humans achieve perfection, everyone's record is flawed. Kerry was not my first choice to be the Democratic Presidential candiate, but he was a good choice and is a far better person than Bush, and has a far greater record of support for the things I believe in than does Bush, who has destroyed this country's reputation in the world and has conducted a systematic campaign to destroy the laws and regulations that protect the environment.


[Weary, "There has not been a word of responsible evidence that Kerry was other than a hero in Vietnam" --- 1. What about how he once claimed that rapes, murders, and fire setting to towns was wide spread and has now backed way off those statements. 2. What about the fact that he claimed that he was in Cambodia at a certain time and that he knew he was there because it was "burned" into his memory, BUT now records (facts Weary) show that he was wrong eerrrr lying and he has even admitted that he wasn't there..:

None of your examples have anything to do with Kerry's bravery and heroism under battle in Vietnam. We know villages were burned. We know rapes, murders and fire settings happened. People spent time in jail for doing such things. We know that Americans are capable of such things because they have happened in Iraq. Kerry was in Vietnam. Kerry saw things. He talked to others who saw things. Just because Americans -- like humans everywhere -- dislike hearing unpleasant truths doesn't make it a lie

There are a thousand reasons why Kerry might have been confused about Cambodia. An honest mistake is far more likely than Bush's claim that he can't remember what he did in his last six months of National Guard service.


[Weary, "It's legitimate when his vice president and his secretary of defense both managed to escape Vietnam." --- And was it o.k. when slick willy aka clinton did the same ? I'm sure you'd start stuttering if i asked you that in person. :

Ah. Mountain Dew. Your mind is so closed and your bitterness so great that it is impossible for you to engage in legitimate debate. Bill Clinton openly admits that he finagled his way out of the Viet Nam war. He said so directly in his televised speech at the Democratic convention. I'm sure that in the interest of truth and accuracy you watched such a key moment of the convention. Or did you not want to have your illusions upset by facts?


[Weary, "Weary, who served in the Korean War and never left his post to engage in a political campaign."--- I'm shocked that you would take such a fact based shot at Kerry like that. :

If you have evidence that Kerry left Viet Nam to help conduct a political campaign in Alabama, please tell us. Otherwise your ignorance of facts continues.


[The FACT is.....many times people hear or are shown the facts and they have become so blind that they wont except the facts if they don't agree with their stance. I can acknowledge Bush's flaws left and right, but you seem so blind to facts when presented with them Weary. What a shame.... :cool:

You could have fooled me. Tell us about Bush's flaws, left and right.

Weary

Dances with Mice
08-25-2004, 11:24
[QUOTE=weary]
But I agree with Jack. It wasn't a wise decision by Kerry -- given Bush's successful trashing of McCain and his role in trashing Senator Cleland, who happened to have lost two legs and an arm in combat. Were those injuries sufficent, Jack?QUOTE]

Weary, I think Senator Cleland was actually working on a radio relay station and his injuries were caused when he bent down to pick up a grenade dropped by a fellow soldier. I'm not trying to denigrate his service, just trying to point out his injuries weren't caused during combat. I could be wrong.

I believe Chap's right, Sen Cleland was trashed because of his voting record, not his war record, wounds, or disabilities. When his voting record was trashed he did howl that they were insulting his war record, wounds, and disabilities. I don't remember Bush saying anything at all about Sen Cleland, could you refresh my memory with a quote?

Or don't. There's really only one thing I like more than discussing politics, and that's poking sharp objects into my eye. Right now I kind of favor gutter nails, those large aluminum stakes that some use for tent stakes, and I really enjoy heating it until it glows a dull red before sticking it into my eyeball.

MOWGLI
08-25-2004, 11:25
He is a disserter.

Hey Blue Jay, I am a desserter too! I especially like good Cheesecake and Ben & Jerrys ice cream. Any other desserters out there? :D

weary
08-25-2004, 11:32
I believe Chap's right, Sen Cleland was trashed because of his voting record, not his war record, wounds, or disabilities. When his voting record was trashed he did howl that they were insulting his war record, wounds, and disabilities. I don't remember Bush saying anything at all about Sen Cleland, could you refresh my memory with a quote?
.

No. You may well be right. I simply don't know and really don't much care. I do know that Bush and his buddies have a record of trashing their opponents and truth is not always part of their arsenal.

Weary

Blue Jay
08-25-2004, 11:34
Hey Blue Jay, I am a desserter too! I especially like good Cheesecake and Ben & Jerrys ice cream. Any other desserters out there? :D

Damn, you got me. If I wasn't so stupid I'd go back and edit that one out.

bunbun
08-25-2004, 11:39
Many thanks to Jack for his lengthy post. I wish a bit more of it had contained facts, rather than a rehash of the right wing talk shows.

LOL!!! Do you listen to the talk shows, Weary?? You should - you might learn something. :)


It's a legetimate record, when contrasted with a president who was missing in whatever action was occurring in Alabama, while he was supposed to have been in the National Guard.

There are two versions of Kerry's "volunteering" for service - One version has Kerry's draft board rejecting his application for a deferment and Kerry then enlisting in the Naval Reserve -- not the Navy. There IS a difference. To quote - "Enlisting in the Naval Reserves is not very different from enlisting in the National Guard. The big difference is that John Kerry happened to get sent to Vietnam and George Bush did not. But those decisions were made by people far above them in the military chain of command.

Some seem to think it was heroic for John Kerry to have enlisted in the Naval Reserve and cowardly for George Bush to have enlisted in the National Guard. But no one has bothered to show what difference -- if any -- there is between these two branches of service." :-?



But I agree with Jack. It wasn't a wise decision by Kerry -- given Bush's successful trashing of McCain and his role in trashing Senator Cleland, who happened to have lost two legs and an arm in combat. Were those injuries sufficent, Jack?

Uh huh - and don't forget those who trashed Bob Dole the same way. Somehow you conveniently forget that what goes around, comes around. For example, it's OK to Moveon.org and Michael Moore to trash anyone they want with lies, but it's not OK for the Swift Boat vets to tell the truth cause ithey might hurt your buddy? :-? http://www.cnsnews.com/Politics/Archive/200408/POL20040820c.html



There has not been a word of responsible evidence that Kerry was other than a hero in Vietnam.

Once upon a time a man asked a young lady if she'd sleep with him for a milliion dollars and she consented. Then he asked if she'd sleep with him for a dollar and she asked "Of course not - what do you think I am?" The answer, of course, was - "We've already established WHAT you are - now we're just haggling over the price."

Kerry, by his own words, has labeled himself a liar. The question is - how big a liar? There are other links, other facts, but for now, try this link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27211-2004Aug23.html



What we have is a multimillion dollar campaign financed by Bush's buddies to cast doubt on that heroism. It obviously is working if someone as wise as Baltimore Jack buys into it.

You should really, REALLY confirm your facts before inserting foot in mouth, Weary. What we actually have is a $100,000 initial donation by one man. After the first ad was aired, public donations added another $400,000 to the kitty. I don't know where the total is now, but it's certainly more than that. That hardly classifies as "a multimillion dollar campaign financed by Bush's buddies". Reference URL: http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/8/16/165810.shtml

Contrast that with the latest 527 numbers - if memory serves, of those who have given a million dollars or more to 527's, 12 of the 13 have given the money to Democratic/liberal/leftist 527's. For more info try these links:
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=4420

http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewCommentary.asp?Page=\Commentary\archive\200408 \COM20040825c.html

As for WHY? Robert "Friar Tuck" Brant said it for a lot of us - from http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/8/25/92620.shtml ----

"Brant reminded Kerry of his depiction of veterans as war criminals. "I said, `You know that's not true,'" Brant recalled to the Associated Press. "That's been simmering in me about 35 years." "

You should read the book, Weary - it's titled "Unfit for Command" ----http://www.newsmaxstore.com/nms/showdetl.cfm?&DID=6&Product_ID=1779



Weary, who served in the Korean War and never left his post to engage in a political campaign.

bunbun - who did what he did in a hotter, greener place; left more blood there than John Kerry; by John Kerry's standards is qualified to be President of the US; and by John Kerry's standards is owed a gaggle of Silver Stars and Purple Hearts, but by his own standards is owed nothing.

PS - yes, for the most part, I deliberately gave you references to news sources that you disdain. That doesn't make the facts untrue - even if it does piss you off. In fact, as a friend once said - the truth will set you free, but first it'll piss you off. You can find the same stories in other places - but not necessarily always in the NY Times, which only reports what they want you to hear - and usually, I believe, what you want to hear.

PPS - I'd suggest, as I have in the past in other venues, that we all get back to talking about HIKING - which, I believe, is what this site is supposed to be about.

eyahiker
08-25-2004, 12:51
Bush/Cheney 2004:jump

boulder
08-25-2004, 13:01
From the Macon, GA Telegraph re:Senate race in GA that pitted Cleland against Chambliss. The topic of this came up in an earlier debate:

"Perhaps the most controversial of the ads, Chambliss' attack on Cleland's Homeland Security votes, featured images of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. The Chambliss campaign modified it after it was condemned by U.S. Sen. Zell Miller (who is speaking in favor of Bush at the GOP convention) and U.S. Rep. John Lewis.

"We have worked hard, suffered much and gave much on the road to where we stand today, and the kinds of ads that Saxby Chambliss is running in a desperate attempt to assassinate the character of Max Cleland are shameful," said Lewis, who was a leader in the civil rights movement.

Chambliss' campaign explained its decision to alter the ad: "Since Cleland and his liberal friends chose to ignore the votes clearly focused on in the ad and instead to zero in on vague images of two terrorists, minor changes were made to the ad to eliminate those images."

Chambliss blames Cleland for thwarting President Bush by refusing to vote for a Homeland Security bill unless civil service jobs were maintained. The president wants complete freedom in hiring and firing personnel in the new department.

Cleland maintains that he was one of the first to back a separate Homeland Security Department and cabinet post; last year Chambliss said he didn't think the cabinet post was unnecessary, although he has since changed his mind.

When Chambliss accused Cleland of failing to defend the country because of his votes on this and a chemical weapons inspection bill, the Vietnam War veteran was indignant.

"I served this country, and I don't have to prove my patriotism to anybody," said Cleland, who lost both legs and an arm in a grenade blast near the end of his tour of duty.

In turn, Cleland has questioned Chambliss' lack of military service in Vietnam. Chambliss used four student deferments before receiving two medical deferments because of "an old football knee."

bunbun
08-25-2004, 13:05
Until humans achieve perfection, everyone's record is flawed. Kerry was not my first choice to be the Democratic Presidential candiate, but he was a good choice and is a far better person than Bush, and has a far greater record of support for the things I believe in than does Bush, who has destroyed this country's reputation in the world and has conducted a systematic campaign to destroy the laws and regulations that protect the environment.

With the exception of the guff about this country's reputation and how he's a better person than Bush, that's a perfectly good reason to vote for Kerry if you're so inclined.

But keep in mind, for all the noise about how Bush is a liar, the only proof of that is that he's a politician. The stated reasons for Bush's "lies" are preposterous at best. OTOH, Kerry's been proved by his own words to be a liar. We had 8 years of a President who was a liar and could NOT command the respect of even those who normally give respect automatically to the office if not the person - the military. Do we really need to repeat that lesson in stupidity?



None of your examples have anything to do with Kerry's bravery and heroism under battle in Vietnam. We know villages were burned. We know rapes, murders and fire settings happened. People spent time in jail for doing such things. We know that Americans are capable of such things because they have happened in Iraq.

Where did that happen in Iraq? When? You're repeating the blind defamation of our troops that Kerry perpetrated in 1971. And don't tell me about Abu Graib. What happened there was an aberration - not the systematic atrocities that Kerry accused his own shipmates of perpetrating. Abu Graib is NOT comparable to Kerry's accusations - and using it so is nothing but a red herring - a distraction - in the hope that some of us won't see the lack of validity in the argument.

As for what Kerry did in Nam, even that's not really the question. The questions that really matter are - What kind of person is he? Does he have the character that we, as a people, should expect in our chief executive? Does he have the ability to lead - the nation, the military, and the world? Does he have a grasp of reality in both the national and global arenas? Can he do the job?

Those questions should be asked - and answered - by everyone who intends to vote. They are totally non-political - they're totally subjective - and they're vital to the survival of this country. And they're being totally ignored in all the hoopla about Vietnam. They're also being ignored by those who will blindly vote for one candidate or the other based only on their own towering presumptions and without ever facing, understanding or questioning their own basic "assumptions."

I don't think there's anyone here who didn't/doesn't find the actions some of the Enron executives repugnant. Their dishonesty, ambition, etc led to their downfall - and to the downfall of their company. So - given the ambition and blatant dishonesty of John Kerry, why would you want to voluntarily install him as the CEO of this nation? What makes you think it's acceptable for the President of the United States to exhibit less character than the CEO of Enron?

Yeah - I know - I just opened the door, didn't I?



Kerry was in Vietnam. Kerry saw things. He talked to others who saw things. Just because Americans -- like humans everywhere -- dislike hearing unpleasant truths doesn't make it a lie

As one vet put it - "The only baby killer I saw in Vietnam was John Kerry." What Kerry "saw" was what Kerry did - not, as he reported, systematic and ubuquitous war crimes. Even Lt Calley & Co didn't perpetrate the things that Kerry accused the entire US military establishment of doing on a systematic basis and as normal policy.

Fact is that the kind of atrocities that Kerry reported absolutely DID happen - they were regularly perpetrated by the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese on their own people. And I know that to be fact.



There are a thousand reasons why Kerry might have been confused about Cambodia. An honest mistake is far more likely than Bush's claim that he can't remember what he did in his last six months of National Guard service.

I'll repeat the link for you --
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004Aug23.html



If you have evidence that Kerry left Viet Nam to help conduct a political campaign in Alabama, please tell us. Otherwise your ignorance of facts continues.

As I recall, Kerry was released from the service at his own request to go home and participate in a political campaign. I believe that's in Kerry's own book "Tour of Duty". There is MUCH more to be said about that if you really need to continue the discussion. But you wouldn't like it.

Now - after all this - to echo Weary - Bush wasn't my first choice as a Presidential candidate. I don't LIKE Bush all that much but I respect him because while he may often be mistaken, he's at least honest and principled. I neither like nor repect Kerry. And not solely because of his past - but that's another discussion. Hopefully someplace else. Personally, I've had enough of this, although I doubt that some people will let this one go and allow Whiteblaze to rest in peace. :-?

boulder
08-25-2004, 13:11
"A top lawyer for President Bush's re-election campaign resigned on Wednesday after disclosing he provided legal advice to a group that accuses Democratic Presidential candidate John Kerry of lying about his Vietnam War record.

Benjamin Ginsberg was the second person to quit the Bush campaign over ties to the group, called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. The Bush's campaign insists it has no relationship with the group and has denied Kerry's charge the president's re-election team is using such "front groups."

May not be "close friends of Bush's" but clearly have been working closely with his admin.

Rather then argue about the past, I would think vets, along with the rest of us, would be furious at this admin. for blatantly violating the laws of war, specifically the Geneva Conventions. By doing this, they have set a danderous precedent that will affect thousands of future, and current, military personal. If we refuse to follow the rules, then clearly no one else will think twice when they capture amer. soldiers. Somehow Jr. didn't learn from pop-whose military did follow Geneva, the importance of that. This however, may bring us back to the lack of experience in this admin. with actually having served. Guess we can't get away from it... sigh.

Alligator
08-25-2004, 13:46
PPS - I'd suggest, as I have in the past in other venues, that we all get back to talking about HIKING - which, I believe, is what this site is supposed to be about.
I love when people write this then continue posting off-topic in the same thread.:)

Or "This is a stupid thread/is anybody even reading this?" but then post in the thread anyway.:D

Lone Wolf
08-25-2004, 13:50
The pseudo-intellectuals always want the last word. :rolleyes:

Furlough
08-25-2004, 14:06
"A top lawyer for President Bush's re-election campaign resigned on Wednesday after disclosing he provided legal advice to a group that accuses Democratic Presidential candidate John Kerry of lying about his Vietnam War record.

Benjamin Ginsberg was the second person to quit the Bush campaign over ties to the group, called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. The Bush's campaign insists it has no relationship with the group and has denied Kerry's charge the president's re-election team is using such "front groups." .
Boulder,
You left out an important part of that news story further down in the text did'nt you? "Lawyers on the Democratic side are also representing both the campaign or party and outside groups running ads in the presidential race. Joe Sandler, a lawyer for the DNC and a group running anti-Bush ads, MoveOn.org, said there is nothing wrong with serving in both roles at once."

Blue Jay
08-25-2004, 14:24
"Lawyers on the Democratic side are also representing both the campaign or party and outside groups running ads in the presidential race. Joe Sandler, a lawyer for the DNC and a group running anti-Bush ads, MoveOn.org, said there is nothing wrong with serving in both roles at once."

Thanks guys, I had not heard about this one. This goes along with my theory that both Bush and Kerry call each other up often and have huge a laugh as they pick our pockets and send us to die "liberating" yet another country that does not want to be liberated. After reading all these posts you all must realize neither of these so called humans deserves to collect our garbage, much less be president. We simply must get rid of Demopublicans.

weary
08-25-2004, 14:40
I'll repeat the link for you --
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004Aug23.html
......Personally, I've had enough of this, although I doubt that some people will let this one go and allow Whiteblaze to rest in peace. :-?

FWIW, the link won't open for me.

But as for letting White Blaze rest in piece. The advantage of this kind of forum, as opposed, say, to AT-L, is that one need only see those things one is interested in reading.

As near as I can judge there is moderate interest in this particular forum. It takes up 12 pages, has garnered 231 replies, and been viewed by nearly a thousand members.

I often wonder how those who profess to hate political debate make their judgments. My casual reading of these and other forums suggests to me that most of the debate haters tend to be mostly conservatives.

Us liberals read, watch and debate issues before making up our minds, somewhat in the manner that ideas have been begun, and eventually accepted since the dawn of civilization.

What is the alternative to discussion? Faith? Is this somehow part of , or perhaps, why, Bush is so fond of "faith-based" initiatives?

Okay, Bun Bun. I know from long experience that this reluctance to debate doesn't usually apply to you.

Weary

boulder
08-25-2004, 15:27
The paste in was in reference to the below comment. I never argued that both sides weren't engaging in "issue ads." One should try not to ascribe malicious intend where none was intended.

That hardly classifies as "a multimillion dollar campaign financed by Bush's buddies".

Jack Tarlin
08-25-2004, 16:18
Weary:

In your remarkable post, you bemoaned the fact that my recent letter here was bereft of facts. Let me refresh your memory on exactly what I said:

*I mentioned that Kerry has chosen to make his service 35 years ago the
centerpiece of his campaign. How anyone can dispute that this is true is
beyond me. If there is anyone in America that doesn't know about Kerry's
military background, that person must be in a coma.

*I mentioned that his harping on Vietnam is partly to make up for his weak
record of accomplishment in the U.S. Senate. To date, he has spent
remarkably little time telling us about his legislative records and
achievements----primarily because he has so few of them. He devoted
about a paragraph of his acceptance speech in Boston to his Senate
career. Anyone wanna hazard a reason why?

*I mentioned that President Bush has released something like 300 pages of
documentation regarding his military service; to date, Kerry has released
almost nothing, and certainly not his medical records, which would
seemingly put this argument to immediate sleep. If there's nothing fishy
about his decorations and medical history, then why doesn't he cough up
the necessary documents? It's within his power to put this discussion and
this ad campaign to an immediate halt. Why then, doesn't he do so?

*I mentioned that Kerry's endless mentioning of his injuries would hold more
weight if we knew something more about them. It appears that none of
them required extensive treatment or hospitalization; for all we know, they
were trivial in nature, yet he used them in order to shorten his tour of duty.
Once again, this speculation could be laid to rest if he produced the medical
records that would provide details. But he won't.

*I mentioned that Kerry is on record, while defending Clinton's draft dodging,
as saying that what one did or did not do three and a half decades ago is
not relevant to one's capability of holding high office. I further mentioned
that Kerry is certainly singing a different song now.

*I mentioned that Kerry's entire public career is based around Vietnam; this
is what first made him a nationally known figure. He first became famous
thanks to a well known photograph, where he was seen throwing his Viet-
nam decorations over the White House fence, presumably out of disgust
over what they stood for. Of course, now we know that this phot-op was
faked and staged for the press, and that the medals and ribbons in question
weren't even his own; he evidently wanted to retain them for later use, in
case they became useful later on, as indeed they did. In short, the very
moment that introduced John Kerry to the national stage was a phony one.

The second thing that made Kerry famous was his Senatae appearance in
which he compared his band of brothers to Genghis Khan, and accused 2.5
million Americans of war crimes. He has never retracted this speech,
explained it, expressed regret for it, or admitted how wrong and insulting
it was.

* * *

In any case, these are the facts that I related in my original post, facts that
Weary seeks to dismiss by comparing them to right wing talk radio. I'm sorry Weary doesn't like these facts, and chooses to ignore them, but it doesn't make them any less true or significant.

Weary also expresses surprise that I have "bought into" this recent campaign against Kerry; he seems to think I'm gullible. Wrong again, Weary. I'm from Boston. I grew up there. I lived there for many years. I was active in state and national political campaigns there, and in fact, first met John Kerry something like 25 years ago. He didn't particularly impress me then, and his subsequent career, especially his rather lackluster career in the Senate, has confirmed my original perceptions. He's running a lousy campaign, and he's giving me, as well as lots of other undecided voters, little reason to vote for him. Like a lot of folks, I'm sick and tired of hearing about his martial exploits 35 years ago, and I'm even sicker about his boo-hooing over the fact that people have the audacity to question him about his activities in Vietnam, and immediately after his premature return home. Kerry brought this on himself, Weary, and if you want to think his critics are merely folks who've been hoodwinked by right-wing talk radio, well, you're entitled to think that. But for you to say that none of his critics have produced any facts is simply untrue. The plain and simple fact is that if
John Kerry had chosen to concentrate on issues, ideas, and his record in the Senate, instead of relentlessly pushing his alleged war heroism, then he wouldn't be having these problems now.

Years ago, in defending Clinton's weaselish behavior as a draft dodger, Kerry
said that what one did or didn't do during the Vietnam era wasn't worth discussing, and had no place in a conversation about one's fitness for office, and that endless harping on one's Vietnam record served little purpose.


I bet he wishes today that he'd taken his own advice.

weary
08-25-2004, 17:03
Jack:

I already conceded that Kerry was unwise to stress his war record.

And like you I know his Senate record was far from stunning -- in fact it is almost as blah as was that of the other JFK who won the presidency.

I'm voting for Kerry simply because he is the best that the political process has brought forward this year and I refuse to vote to re-elect a president who has made as many mistakes as this president has and who has made almost unanimously bad decisions in areas of land protection and clean air and water.

I'm voting for Kerry not because he is the best possible candidate, but because he is the best available in 2004. I flatly refuse to vote for the strongest supporter of ideas I find appallingly bad.

I deny that Bush is the "best candidate." I think he has been inept in furthering his own agenda. The ads talk of Kerry flip flopping, but no president in my memory has flipflopped on more issues than Bush in an attempt to influence the political winds, while pursuing a dumb and destructive foreign policy and attempting to devastate the American environment for the profit of his friends.

But regardless, wise people ignore the "best man" argument, recognizing that often the "best man" is one's strongest enemy.

Weary

SGT Rock
08-25-2004, 17:30
I have been reading and planned to stay out of it from now on (and I thought you did too JAck ;) )- and I do plan to make this my last post here.

Anyway, I just want to throw in my $0.02 since I think compared to most of the posts about this subject, Jack has about the best.

I said it a while back when people were bagging Kerry about his not earning his purple hearts, BSM with V, etc etc etc - this is not the tact to take. These things are on record and he proved that he earned them 30+ years ago. The line that should be taken is how does this prepare him to be President? I certainly don't feel that my participation in OIF makes me ready to be President, and I spent 12+ months there (I could however give a long lecture about why the whole thing is being screwed up from the top - but I won't go into that on a board since it would never be productive). It does give him a view of war that President Bush doesn't, but that is about where that ends. On the other hand, Kerry has a long record in government that he initially didn't play to at all, and since that record is a whole lot longer than 4 months, he should be focusing on that as his qualifications to be president.

What really bugs me personally is the 527 groups or whatever they are called. These third party groups that are slinging all the mud back and forth for the candidates are like the people watching a street fight about to happen - they egg the fight on when they should stand back and let things resolve calmly. Unfortunately politics have come to stuff like this. 150 years ago they fought duels for less during political debates. Now days you can call a man a coward and a lier without proof from either side and people take you at your word and it is totally acceptable. Not only is it acceptable, but some people will pass the gossip or innuendo around as fact like those are the most important thing in a race - not the policies that either candidate is espousing.

Lets try having the candidates in a controlled debate. Let them explain their records and then tell us how they will handle what is happening today, and what may happen in the future. We can all listen, then decide based on what they say. And while we are at it, lets keep all these other groups quiet while they do it.

And just a note about records. 300 pages of documents may prove nothing, and the lack of release of documents also proves nothing. I have about 300 pages of documents just in my medical records which wouldn't show anything about my service. Also, a person that left the service 30+ years ago might not have much or anything pertaining to the questions at hand. The fact that he got the purple hearts back then meant that enough documentation existed at the time. they don't hold on to every page of medical records or award requests for that long, about 2 years is the standard time limit except in certain cases. The Navy may or may not have the records in question, and more than likely noting that Kerry would personally have would settle the debate for anyone anyway. Add to that the fact that the executive order on purple hearts doesn't have a required level of damage for the injury to qualify - only that it was treated by medical personnel. I guess a lot of people that didn't get purple hearts over the years could have qualified, and a lot of people that got purple hearts were hurt a lot more than Kerry was. In Iraq the Division I was attached to had a policy - one purple heart and you might go home. Two purple hearts gave the soldier the option to go. And three purple hearts and the soldier was sent home without a choice. The level of wounds at three didn't seem to matter, the fact that you had been hit some many times meant we better send you home before you get killed. I also know a couple of soldiers that didn't live to see the second or third.

SavageLlama
08-25-2004, 17:38
Bottom line for me in this election is the environment. period.

If you don't believe there's a difference between Bush and Kerry, than you should do some reading:

http://www.sierraclub.com/voter_education/sharingpriorities2004.pdf

http://www.bushgreenwatch.org


Kerry is by far the best choice for the environment.

steve hiker
08-25-2004, 19:41
Bottom line for me in this election is the environment. period.

Kerry is by far the best choice for the environment.
That's about how I look at it. Granted, there may not be much we can do to slow the race to extinction that is currently underway, but I don't want some corporate asskisser like Bush speeding the process up. The human race's days may be numbered, but at least I'd like the opportunity to walk in what is left of the forests for a few more years, rather than racing to harvest what's left as quickly as possible before the end game is complete.

Mountain Dew
08-26-2004, 03:21
:bse Blue Wacko :jump , "Oh, one question. So, Hudson have you ever actually voted in a federal election? Answer carefully as this is a matter of public record." ---Yes, I have and you are welcome to go look it up if you wish. When somebody is telling the truth they don't need to be careful because the truth is very easy to say and flows out of ones mouth. Novel concept if you would just try it. My first and last name are on here for all to see. I have nothing to hide. Might I mention you look pathetic waving that white flag. try answer's some questions now and then. hahahahaaa ( another pointless comment crushed )
...................................
Boulder Nevermind about the answering other peoples questions point I was making. I believe that you understand clearly, but just can't help yourself when a fellow liberal has been caught and exposed. Go ahead and answer away ...you points are elementary to refute and quit humerous.... :D

Boulder, (when referring to the attorney Ginsberg who was associated with Bush's campaign and the Swift Boat 527)... "May not be "close friends of Bush's" but clearly have been working closely with his admin." ---(Furlough does an excellent job at framing the logic of a liberal here so I'll let his post speak for me)Furlough,"You left out an important part of that news story further down in the text did'nt you? "Lawyers on the Democratic side are also representing both the campaign or party and outside groups running ads in the presidential race. Joe Sandler, a lawyer for the DNC and a group running anti-Bush ads, MoveOn.org, said there is nothing wrong with serving in both roles at once."--- hahahaaaa hypocrisy EXPOSED....man that was sweat ! :clap

Boulder, "I am puzzled with your focus on "facts" while continuing to call the Secretary of Interior a "he." Perhaps you should re-read my post."--- I see you are waving the white flaf with this weak retort. All you can come back with is that I didn't type SHE and instead typed HE ? Who really cares if He is really a SHE anyways.... I won't for a minute claim that I knew that before your post either. Why would I want to know or care when I can be unbiased enough to know Bush is not good with the enviroment. Unbiased opinions are foreign to you but perhaps you could try them out someday huh ?

Boulder, " Of course this type of discussion is probably pointless, but should you wish to discuss Norton's environmental record, I'd be happy to engage you over those facts." ---You somehow got confused that I wanted to or cared to discuss HER record with you or anybody else. As you told me..."perhaps you should re-read my posts" !

"Cheers" and facts...try them out....
--------------------------------
Alligator, "Hey MD, here's some help. Secretary of the Interior Gale Norton. Whatever your opinion of her, it would be nice to get her gender correct.

Which of the following land management agencies are also currently run by women?
Bureau of land management.
National Park Service.
US Department of Agriculture."
US Forest Service. ---I really couldn't care less if I got her gender correct or not. If you think that in someway effected the point I was making I pity you. As for the rest of your entry....who cares ---> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
-------------------------------------------
skeemer[/B]..."And, that's my problelm with trial lawyers. They go on TV and act like they're there for the victim. They are nothing but ambulance chasers. You and I know why they're there....the $$$$ A used car salesman has more integrity than a trial lawyer. Keep Edwards in your state, I don't want him." --- You so easily just throw all (100%) of trail lawyers into the role as satan. I grew up with my father being a trial lawyer and have seen the topic of "trail lawyers" from inside the huddle my entire life. Being a hard core conservative I have never understood why the Republican party dislikes the trial lawyers so much. Sure there are the bad apples, but aren't there bad apples in your profession as well ? There are even bad pastors, but one can't logically conclude that because some are bad the whole must be the same. If you think that trial lawyers shouldn't be in it for the money on some level then you are living in fantasyland. Saying that they don't deserve to be paid for what they do is insane. I wouldn't vote for Edwards because he has sold out the democratic party and gone to the far left, but to say that he is a bad person simply isn't true. He's the best think Kerry has ever done besides marry a sugar momma. I'm surprised that he didn't take her last name since she gets angry if people call her Mrs. Kerry.
ps....name one court case that a trial lawyer has decided the verdict on and I'll never hike again or come on WB. It hasn't happened....a judge or jury does this so if the outcome angers you perhaps you will educate yourself and vote for local judges AND... serve on jury's instead of getting out of jury duty...
..........................
[B]Weary, All I can do is shake my head at how you refuse to answer questions ask to you because it doesn't suit your belief's or is it that possibly you don't care for facts when they don't strengthen other poeple's belief's. That is the liberal motto after all. You are full of ***** when you speak of Clinton saying at the convention that he dodged the draft. Entirely full of ***** and lose alot of credibility in the eyes of people on WB that know you simply made that up.
Weary... I would comment on your entire response, but others have effectively laid the hammer of truth down on you already. I will however say a few things
Weary, "We know villages were burned. We know rapes, murders and fire settings happened. People spent time in jail for doing such things." --- NOPE....stop the liberal slant right there weary... I clearly said as did Kerry that it was WIDE SPREAD. <---read that over and over untill you understand o.k. ? I'll restate my point since you didn't or couldn't understand it the first time. Kerry clearly said that these things were wide spread and then admitted that he lied about it and was largely going on what others had told him. He then quickly came home and passed it off as if he saw those things in vast quanity's. Rememeber how he was calling our soldiers evil things and throwing these accusations at them ? <----read again and again please so this time you wont be tempted to throw that slick willy slant on it.
Weary, "If you have evidence that Kerry left Viet Nam to help conduct a political campaign in Alabama, please tell us. Otherwise your ignorance of facts continues" --- three words and then i'll just laugh while you snack on your foot... " Tour of Duty ". hahahahaaaaa :banana
..........................................
Sgt. Rock, since you said that you wont respond to this thread again I won't post any questions directly to you, but rather point out a few things of interest.

Sgt. Rock,(talking about Kerry's purple bruises ...I mean hearts) "These things are on record and he proved that he earned them 30+ years ago." ---They are on WHAT Sgt. Rock ?, " on Record" --- ( I'll let Sgt. Rock respond to his own words here...Rock, "pages of documents may prove nothing". ---wait a minute....One minute the RECORD is proof that they must be legit and then a sentence or so later records may prove nothing ? :-?

Sgt. Rock, "I have about 300 pages of documents just in my medical records which wouldn't show anything about my service."--- They obviously show something about your service even if it is a minor detail like what shots you've had etc.

Sgt. Rock, "In Iraq the Division I was attached to had a policy - one purple heart and you might go home. Two purple hearts gave the soldier the option to go. And three purple hearts and the soldier was sent home without a choice. The level of wounds at three didn't seem to matter, the fact that you had been hit some many times meant we better send you home before you get killed. "--- since when can a division set its own purple heart policy's ? :-? I was told by you in a post on White Blaze that the entire military had ONE standard for purple hearts. Perhaps you meant that your division's policy was that of EVERY other division in the military. :-? Maybe I'm reading your statement wrong....
...........................................

]

Blue Jay
08-26-2004, 07:41
Hudson, although you are amusing, like so many others, I give up on you. You are unable to comprehend anything anyone says to you, not just me. Go ahead have the last word. If possible, please try to use a vocabulary greater than that of a 12 year old.

weary
08-26-2004, 09:34
:
Weary,You are full of ***** when you speak of Clinton saying at the convention that he dodged the draft. Entirely full of ***** and lose alot of credibility in the eyes of people on WB that know you simply made that up.
]

Well I didn't mention anything about the draft, though obviously, that's how Clinton avoided Vietnam. What I said was that, "Bill Clinton openly admits that he finagled his way out of the Viet Nam war. He said so directly in his televised speech at the Democratic convention."

Clinton's exact words as reported in the convention transcript were: "During the Vietnam War, many young men, including the current president, the vice president AND ME, could have gone to Vietnam and didn't. John Kerry came from a privileged background. He could have avoided going, too. But instead he said, "Send me." (Cheers, applause.)"

Weary

bunbun
08-26-2004, 09:40
I love when people write this then continue posting off-topic in the same thread.:)

Alligator -
Not meant as an argument, instigation or put-down - but there are "at least" 5 possible responses to that -
1. Mea culpa - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
2. I may not be female, but I still have the right to change my mind (well - I think that's true - but maybe I should check with my wife?).
3. Who gives a damn?
4. If you don't like it, why are you reading it?
5. I had great faith that we weren't finished with the topic. I was right.

You can choose whichever or as many of those as you like - from my viewpoint all of them apply. :)

It's Thursday and I'm in a smartass mood. You're just gonna have to deal with it. ;)

bunbun
08-26-2004, 12:09
Bottom line for me in this election is the environment. period.

If you don't believe there's a difference between Bush and Kerry, than you should do some reading:

http://www.sierraclub.com/voter_education/sharingpriorities2004.pdf

http://www.bushgreenwatch.org


Kerry is by far the best choice for the environment.

Llama -
I'm not gonna argue the point right now - but I'd like to hear your personal justification for that last statement. Your websites do not constitute justification. They are slanted to attack Bush - but they tell nothing real about Kerry. The election is about either keeping the devil we know - or replacing him with the devil we don't know. So --- what I'm looking for is -

What do you think Kerry will do for the environment (or the trails)?
Why do you think he'll do that? Based on what?
Why do you trust him to it?
And - what's the fallout - the cost - of those actions?

Keep in mind that much of what's on the Sieera Club page is pure unadulterated BS. For example - the last line on the SC page re: Wild Land Protection presents two entirely unrelated statements, implying that Bush's actions are "BAD" and Kerry's actions are "GOOD", and that the two actions are related and in opposition. That works for those who aren't bright enough to actually read the two, compare them and THINK about what's being said. Many of the other "opposing" viewpoints either make no sense - or are entirely wrong - sometimes on both sides.

Two final questions - how many of those actions attributed to Kerry were actually proposed or co-sponsored by Kerry? In other words - what has he actually DONE in the past that merits the positive attitude? Voting for/against legislation is wonderful - but it's NOT a real affirmative action. It's only a "reaction." What actual "actions" has Kerry taken in the past?

How many of the actions attributed to Bush are Congressional responsibilities that have nothing whatever to do with Bush? In other words - things he doesn't control - and that Kerry wouldn't control if he were President either.

FYI - I don't disagree with some of the Kerry's items - I just disagree with the slant on the SC page - cause it ignores a whole lot of real-life considerations in favor of extreme (and unreal) environmentalism. It's long on idealism - and real short on reality.

C'ya later -

Alligator
08-26-2004, 14:22
The point you were trying to make.

Boulder, You simply missed the point I was trying to make. BooBoo was bashing Bush's Sec. of the Interior and his record. I thought it quite possible and likely that he did this without even the basic knowledge of the mans name/ record so that is why I asked.
So you sought to make BooBoo look stupid by questioning his basic knowledge of Sec. of the Interior Gale Norton, but yet you did not know that, on a basic level, Gale Norton is a woman.

POINT LOST.:clap

As for which agencies are run by women, that was basic information you seem to lack regarding who runs the show, the show being the AT (you know, the reason for this forum).

Fran P. Mainella (woman) is Director of the National Park Service. NPS is part of the Dept. of the Interior. The chief of the US Forest Service is Dale Bosworth (man). The USFS is a part of the Dept. of Agriculture, with Sec. Ann Veneman (woman) in charge. "Who cares." Obviously, not many of you political yahoos. Worse, when I meet actual hikers, they generally are unaware also. But, this information certainly helps when yer bitchin' about trail related political matters. Like when Jane Fonda(NOBO), John Kerry (NOBO) and John McCain (SOBO) thru-hiked during the Vietnam War and Jane stayed at Uncle Johnny's, Kerry received his certificate but was accused of blue blazin' and McCain was held prisoner in Port Clinton.

I am unaware of any BLM lands along the AT, but that agency is run by Kathleen Clarke.

Alligator
08-26-2004, 14:23
1. Mea culpa - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
2. I may not be female, but I still have the right to change my mind (well - I think that's true - but maybe I should check with my wife?).
3. Who gives a damn?
4. If you don't like it, why are you reading it?
5. I had great faith that we weren't finished with the topic. I was right.

;)
1. Speak for yourself :jump .
2. Check with your wife, she'll tell you who wears the pants in your family.
3. You do, you responded.
4. I never said I didn't like it. I love this thread, find it intellectually stimulating, and feel that I will follow with many more posts.
5. You bet. Last one to post here gets to put psuedo-intellectual in their signature line.

The practice of being a smartass should be conducted on a daily basis. Carry on!

weary
08-26-2004, 15:39
Bottom line for me in this election is the environment. period.
If you don't believe there's a difference between Bush and Kerry, than you should do some reading:
http://www.sierraclub.com/voter_education/sharingpriorities2004.pdf
http://www.bushgreenwatch.org
Kerry is by far the best choice for the environment.

There has never been an administration more dedicated to rolling back virtually every environmental law and regulation. Yes. Bun Bun. Some of these moves are probably legitimate. It's not the details that are important, but the sheer number and comprehensiveness of the list that scares me and make it impossible for me to vote for Bush.

I would have to duplicate the length of this entire thread to recount them all.

But one of the more responsible national groups is the Natural Resources Defense Council. One of the better summaries was issued last April by the group's senior counsel, Robert Kennedy Jr.

Here's what he said:

"I want to start by taking a moment to recognize the brave and embattled employees inside our government agencies who must endure -- and, in some cases no doubt, help carry out -- the Bush administration's brazen assault on our environment.

"Many of these public servants have refused to do big business's bidding at the hands of this administration. As hard as it must be to be forced to leave one's career, some can be considered lucky to have been able to resign and walk away from government service with their reputation and dignity intact. The clearest examples are the four senior officials who have left EPA's enforcement office, publicly decrying this administration's lack of commitment to the enforcement of our environmental laws.

"Unfortunately, many others have suffered the all-too-common fate of whistleblowers -- they were demeaned for speaking the truth, denied justice, and dumped or driven from their jobs.

"Kevin Gambrell lost his job at the Interior Department for reporting that oil and gas companies were cheating Navajo Indians out of millions of dollars while exploiting their tribal lands. Biologist Michael Kelley was run out of the National Marine Fisheries Service after he warned his supervisors -- to no avail -- that the Bush administration's plan to divert water from the Klamath River could harm endangered salmon. Sure enough, that action led the biggest fish kill in the West. And David Lewis, a scientist with EPA for 31 years, faced reprisals for divulging that his agency relied on faulty data when it said the use of dioxin-tainted sewage sludge as fertilizer for crops poses no safety risk.

"Sadly, the list goes on and on.

"Indeed, many scientists and specialists inside our resource agencies have it rough these days. But the rest of us are also paying a steep price for this administration's hostile environmental agenda.

"As a citizen -- and as a taxpayer -- I'm outraged that my government is putting polluters' interests before the public interest; choosing corporate profits over people.

"Despite its claims, this administration is retreating from our nation's commitment to environmental protection. To the contrary, this administration is committed to undoing decades of progress in cleaning up our air, water, and lands and safeguarding our health.

"As documented in our new report, the Bush record speaks for itself.

"Former energy executives working closely -- secretly -- with their former business associates to relax environmental safeguards in order to enrich private companies at the expense of our public lands.

"Utility lobbyists actually drafting Bush EPA policies that weaken Clean Air Act public health protections.

"America's premier environmental agency now relying on "voluntary compliance" from polluters in lieu of actually enforcing the laws that protect our air and our water.

"White House disregard for and manipulation of science -- so brazen that it has fomented an unprecedented backlash among the scientific community. By "sound science" this administration seems to mean the science that sounds good to industry.

"Today, it is clear that the Bush administration poses a clear and present danger to the laws safeguarding our air, water, wildlife, forests, parks, and public health.

"After three years of this agenda in action, here's a sample of the problems we're now facing.

"For the first time in recent memory, water quality in this country is getting worse -- not better. Nearly half of our waterways fail to meet the basic objectives of the Clean Water Act -- that they be clean enough to swim or fish in. Yet EPA is failing to crack down on water polluters. (Overall, EPA enforcement has dropped by nearly half under President Bush's tenure.) Meanwhile, the president budget has repeatedly called for deep cuts in the agency's enforcement funding and staffing.

"With over 40,000 sewage spills every year, we need to do more to reduce this contamination, which shuts down our fisheries, closes our beaches and sickens countless people. Yet the Bush administration has refused to adopt Clinton-era rules to do just that. What's worse, this administration proposes weakening protections so that wastewater plants can discharge inadequately treated sewage into our waterways during rainstorms -- but everyone knows that dilution is not the solution to pollution.

"The Bush administration has weakened the core Clean Air Act program requiring the nation's oldest and dirtiest polluters to clean up when they modernize or expand their operations. It makes absolutely no sense to let coal-fired power plants increase their smokestack emissions without having to install modern pollution-control equipment.

"Under the guise of forest fire prevention, the Forest Service has reverted to the bad old days when timber beasts ruled the agency. New industry-friendly rules promote increased logging and less environmental protection in our national forests, despite the fact that the agency's own surveys confirm that Americans value our forests most for their protection of clean water and wildlife habitat.

"In violation of the spirit of an international agreement, the Bush administration has reversed course and is aggressively seeking widespread exemptions to a ban on an ozone-destroying chemical -- methyl-bromide use. The administration is doing this at the behest of agribusiness lobbyists who refuse to switch to safer alternative pesticides like many other businesses around the world.

For every policy put forth or rule change sought by this administration, all we need ask is: "Who benefits, and who suffers?" Sadly, that question is far too easy to answer.

"It's important to keep in mind what's at stake. The administration's aggressive effort to "rewrite the rules" for industry is not a question of political disagreement or policy debate. What this White House has so far accomplished with its pro-polluter, anti-environmental agenda -- and what is yet to come -- affects each of us in a significant way.

"Who doesn't prefer to breathe healthy air and to drink clean water? Who doesn't hope that some of our last remaining wild places will stay wild for the enjoyment of future generations?

"It comes down to this: Our government is supposed to respect us, to value us, to look out for us, and to protect our best interests. Our environment is not a commodity that can -- or should -- be auctioned off to the highest corporate bidder.

"Something my uncle said after the Cuban missile crisis comes to mind: "For in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's futures. And we all are mortal."

The Natural Resources Defense Council is a national, nonprofit organization of scientists, lawyers and environmental specialists dedicated to protecting public health and the environment. Founded in 1970, NRDC has more than 1 million members and e-activists nationwide, served from offices in New York, Washington, Santa Monica and San Francisco.

Weary

bunbun
08-26-2004, 17:08
But one of the more responsible national groups is the Natural Resources Defense Council. One of the better summaries was issued last April by the group's senior counsel, Robert Kennedy Jr.


Uh, Weary?

1. Although these things do change, in the past, NRDC was not considered a "mainstream" lobbying group - more like a fringe element. My wife worked for 4 years on the next floor up from them. I probably know more about them than you do. Personally, I'm not impressed by extremism. It's generally the same psychological mindset as Al-Quaeda terrorism. And just as destructive.

2. In the most surreal part of my wildest fantasies I would NEVER imagine you voting for Bush. Or for any conservative. :)

3. None of what you wrote - not a single word - is in any way an answer to any of the questions I asked. Every bit of it is an attack on Bush and a "distraction/misdirection" from those questions. We've been there before, ad nauseum. Now - do you have answers to the questions?

4. The environment has survived every President since WWII - it survived for millenia without the restrictive laws, overwhelming bureaucracy and over protective motherhen organizations that you think so necessary. I rather suspect it will survive either Bush or Kerry - whichever.

5. What might NOT survive is this nation. Even if that's unimportant to you, it's not to me. In some part because if this nation doesn't survive, then all your wonderful concern about the environment is moot. Those who record our place in history will not likely share your fine concern about air or water quality - or wilderness. :-?

6. I DO share that concern - but I also know that much of the regulation that you're so worried about being rolled back is both overkill with respect to it's stated purpose - and useless with respect to accomplishing that purpose. Granted - not all, or possibly even most, regulation fits in that category. But much of it does.

7. The automatic sackcloth and ashes wailing over EVERY environmental change doesn't impress me because most of the wailing and gnashing of teeth is done by those who have a vested interest in continuing the march to destruction of this country's economy via the insane regulatory processes in which we've allowed ourselves to be trapped. Look at the source of the "information" (read "diatribe") that you put out here - and tell me that those who wrote it aren't heavily invested in their vision of "what the world should be" - and that they are actually objective.

No - don't tell me that - I might die laughing. Let's not get too ridiculous here.

weary
08-26-2004, 17:22
BunBun:

I've done more this year to elect a Democratic president than in all the other Presidential elections over the past 50 years put together.

I do so because I spent my working life reporting on environmental matters and it sickens me to see laws that made possible the cleaning up of our waterways gutted by phony regulations, amendments and lack of enforcement.

For a more complete account of what is happening open:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story?id=5939345&rnd=1093546799830&has-player=true&version=6.0.12.857

Weary