View Full Version : free maps
ragincajun
11-27-2009, 14:42
looking for used atc maps to buy 125 for set is pricey or does anyone know where i can get decent maps to download and print for free that are somewhat detailed like 50 mile stretches per page max would love 10-20 mile per page maps
If you owned a used ATC map set in good condition, would you sell it for anything less than about half of what you paid for it? That's what students can expect to get for used text books at a used book store. Those books are then marked up and the actual retail price students pay is higher.
When someone posts that ATC's maps are expensive, it's a relative statement often without reference to comparable alternatives. One must compare the cost of an ATC set to the available alternatives to claim they are expensive.
Until we see such posts, I'd like to offer the following observations for consideration. I doubt anyone can buy a semester's text books for less than a complete A.T. map set. Furthermore, when one considers the overall cost of a through hike, the cost of a map set is small in comparison.
Wondering about free maps you can print out? How much is your time worth, do you have equipment that can produce output larger than 8.5 x 11 inches and what about the cost of printing supplies? Can you reasonably expect to produce maps of the same or better quality than are commercially available less expensively without the economies of scale which exist when ATC orders maps?
Suck it up and pay for a good set of maps. Take care of them and resell them.
We've been through the maps issue here many times before. Anyone who wants to spend the time to read through a more recent effort click on I might not hike with a map (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=40042).
Johnny Thunder
11-27-2009, 19:35
I think that ragin cajun has a point even though he/she may not know what that point is...
First point: ATC sanctioned maps are expensive. It's hard to disagree with this one. If you're not out to thru-hike the entire AT then it's tough to really justify buying the set. Individually, they are also pretty steep (you do get some discount by buying the lot) and would be cost prohibitive for someone looking to map out a weekend hike.
(my) Second point:The ATC sanctioned maps are wasteful of paper, ink, and weight. Since individual trail clubs are responsible for editing and printing the maps there is no true standard. Often maps are printed single sided. Great for a weekend if all you need is that one map...pretty bogus if you are trying to carry a bunch of them at a time. In many areas Forestry Service maps are significantly better than those sold by the trail clubs (and resold by the ATC).
The GMC puts out a handy two sided, one sheet map that covers the entire Long Trail. If the ATC could pare the current map set down to 7 or 8 such maps you might see more Through Hikers adopting this safer and more informed strategy.
Barring that, hikers will do as the cajun suggested. Google is close to providing a handy enough data set for people to map out trips and I could imagine their information being complete enough in just a few years to supplant printed maps.
white_russian
11-27-2009, 21:18
Individually, they are also pretty steep (you do get some discount by buying the lot) and would be cost prohibitive for someone looking to map out a weekend hike.
Not really, for example the maps from Springer to Fontana are about 12 bucks and cover about 160 miles. If you do 4 trips that is 4 bucks a trip. If you can't afford that then you probably couldn't even afford the gas money to get to the trailhead.
The GMC puts out a handy two sided, one sheet map that covers the entire Long Trail. If the ATC could pare the current map set down to 7 or 8 such maps you might see more Through Hikers adopting this safer and more informed strategy.
At 8 double sided maps you have about 135 miles per side. When you have that big of an area on one side the map is useless. You won't be able to see the side trails or FS roads. An 8 map set may make maps more accessible, but since they would suck it would not be safer or more informed
Johnny Thunder
11-27-2009, 21:52
Not really, for example the maps from Springer to Fontana are about 12 bucks and cover about 160 miles. If you do 4 trips that is 4 bucks a trip. If you can't afford that then you probably couldn't even afford the gas money to get to the trailhead.
At 8 double sided maps you have about 135 miles per side. When you have that big of an area on one side the map is useless. You won't be able to see the side trails or FS roads. An 8 map set may make maps more accessible, but since they would suck it would not be safer or more informed
But still that initial $12 is more than FREE...which, is what cajun was asking about in the first place. I'll agree that some of the AT map set are better than others but would counter with the example of the maps from my (once) home state of PA. Check it out. The set that I bought wasn't worth the paper it was printed on (not to mention the money). In fairness, I did buy the set about 10 years ago and they're probably better now...but, in hindsight none of the AT maps were good enough for me to want to lay money down on them.
With regards to the Long Trail maps...it's one of those things that you'd just have to see to understand. I'll try to describe them to you. Each side of the map is divided into 5 or 6 vertical "cells" showing a portion of the trail heading North. Where one ends at the top another picks up at the bottom. The scale is an inch a mile. The maps' greatest success is that it removes a lot of the extraneous surrounding area.
I realize that some hikers want the depth of information found on the current map set. But others, discouraged by the current size (weight) and cost will look elsewhere or chose to not carry them at all.
So, to answer Cajun's question: No, I can't think of any way to get free maps for the entire AT. If you were planning a weekend trip you might be able to find info provided by the local State Park, hiking club, or Boy Scout Camp.
Emerald, the time I'd spend downloading and printing the current AT map set is worth more than $125...so, if I really wanted them I'd splash for it. But, I'd much rather have the type of maps described above and I'd spend hours making that happen (for free or otherwise). I think that was sort of what Cajun was asking when they were talking about the amount of miles per map.
Bulldawg
11-27-2009, 21:57
I will tell you from the point of a section hiker, I like the current format of the maps I own, up through the Smokies I think. Having the extra surrounding areas Johnny mentions above allows me to find roads my wife can use to meet me at a trail head and/or shows me what I am looking at sometimes when on the summit. I for one like to be able to look across the valley and see the name of the mountains or towns in front of me. No, that isn't much use to a thru hiker I guess, but seeing that 3 million people per year use the trail and only some 2500-3000 of them are "thru hikers" I can see where the ATC and trail clubs might want to provide a tool that covers everyone.
Now I bought the SNP maps when I was headed up there this past spring, I didn't really like the format of those set of maps at all.
I'll agree that some [maps] of the AT map set are better than others, but would counter with the example of the maps from my (once) home state of PA. Check it out. The set that I bought wasn't worth the paper it was printed on (not to mention the money). In fairness, I did buy the set about 10 years ago and they're probably better now.
The maps you claim weren't worth the paper they were printed on is 10-year old news republished at least annually. I hiked with maps no better than them in 1980 and found them satisfactory. The latest KTA maps are much better and even show the land ownership through which the A.T. passes, an important fact to know in Pennsylvania.
Refer to WhiteBlaze's article ATC Map List (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53762) to learn when maps were last updated.
Emerald, the time I'd spend downloading and printing the current AT map set is worth more than $125.
Then ATC's maps aren't expensive, are they?
white_russian
11-28-2009, 03:13
But still that initial $12 is more than FREE...which, is what cajun was asking about in the first place. I'll agree that some of the AT map set are better than others but would counter with the example of the maps from my (once) home state of PA. Check it out. The set that I bought wasn't worth the paper it was printed on (not to mention the money). In fairness, I did buy the set about 10 years ago and they're probably better now...but, in hindsight none of the AT maps were good enough for me to want to lay money down on them.
With regards to the Long Trail maps...it's one of those things that you'd just have to see to understand. I'll try to describe them to you. Each side of the map is divided into 5 or 6 vertical "cells" showing a portion of the trail heading North. Where one ends at the top another picks up at the bottom. The scale is an inch a mile. The maps' greatest success is that it removes a lot of the extraneous surrounding area.
I realize that some hikers want the depth of information found on the current map set. But others, discouraged by the current size (weight) and cost will look elsewhere or chose to not carry them at all.
So, to answer Cajun's question: No, I can't think of any way to get free maps for the entire AT. If you were planning a weekend trip you might be able to find info provided by the local State Park, hiking club, or Boy Scout Camp.
Emerald, the time I'd spend downloading and printing the current AT map set is worth more than $125...so, if I really wanted them I'd splash for it. But, I'd much rather have the type of maps described above and I'd spend hours making that happen (for free or otherwise). I think that was sort of what Cajun was asking when they were talking about the amount of miles per map.
So you are complaining that thick water resistant paper suited for outdoor activities is heavy and expensive. Give me a break, its only a few ounces for very useful information. Nobody carries the full set and with good logistics you shouldn't be carrying at the very most more than a half dozen at a time. The utility very much justifies the weight and cost. Man up for god sakes.
Now on to the cells on the LT map. The "extraneous surrounding area" is what makes the maps worthwhile. If you remove that then you might as well just bring whatever Appalachian Pages is being called this year. It has the profile and all the data which is what you would get out of a map without the surrounding area. What good is a map showing a FS road or side trail if it doesn't show where they go. If you look at a narrow map and a guidebook you will get the same information: where the road crosses the trail. That totally negates the usefulness of the map. With the full map you have a better idea of the general area so you can know where that road goes, that is the single deciding factor of why I even carry maps.
Outrider
11-28-2009, 06:24
looking for used atc maps to buy 125 for set is pricey or does anyone know where i can get decent maps to download and print for free that are somewhat detailed like 50 mile stretches per page max would love 10-20 mile per page maps
To answer your question, this might be a place to start. Have not looked that deep into it yet, but you may find what you are looking for here.
http://www.backpacker.com/global/47
Johnny Thunder
11-28-2009, 12:09
.
Then ATC's maps are expensive, are they?
Emerald, be fair...I know how to truncate, too. I clearly went on to say that my time is worth more than that $125 but that the ATC maps were NOT what I would spend my time and money on. It doesn't matter how cheap they are in comparison to the value of my time...If they're not what I want then they're not worth the time or the money.
For instance: McDonald's hamburgers are really cheap for the amount of time and effort it would take me to make one myself. However, I would rather chose to spend more/less money and time to make one more in line with my own individual set of tastes.
With regards to the size and weight issue...Seriously, dude...I'm not a weenie here. I've carried many useless things over the years including a 6 pound guitar, 4.5 pounds of dildo shaped brass, crocs. The list goes on.
But, I refuse to carry needlessly wasteful things (specifically, non-funny and wasteful) things on a through hike. Maps printed with information upwards of 10 miles away from the AT...printed one sided...well, that just falls into the category of "needlessly wasteful through-hike related things."
For section hikers these maps are great. As Bulldawg pointed the vast majority of people who use the AT are section hikers.
He said he likes the way maps are set up in the South. He can use them to arrange loops...have his wife meet him...figure out where to meet the National Geographic film crew...etc.
It's interesting that he said that he didn't like the map setup from the Shennandoah...hmmm....could it be because the standard used is entirely foreign to his Southern eyes? Or maybe that they included trail information for the entire park (useful for normal park visitors, useless for a hiker who's purpose is to complete the section)? Maybe it was that for just over 100 miles the maps are 2 or 3 sheets of single sided water resistant paper?
It's not the weight of the map but instead how wasteful it is for a through hiker. You really need to hold the LT map in your hand before you start passing judgement on how useful it is. For me on a hike where i'm passing through at a rate of 10 to 20 miles a day I need to know the following information:
1. major blueblazes up or around mountains.
2. where can I expect to camp (stealth or otherwise).
3. where's water. if water's not marked where can I expect to find a wet weather drainage.
4. where does this road go? where does this trail go?
All of those things can be accomplished on streamlined maps infinitely better suited for through hikers. Hikers would not burn through 2 or 3 maps a resupply and require necessary postage and logistics to make sure they have a complete set (as Emerald suggested) when they return. The LT map (I pointed out) does this in a way that could be more in line with what Rajun Cajun was originally asking about.
Johnny Thunder
11-28-2009, 12:11
Man up for god sakes.
.
Also, dude...poor form.
Where did you get the price of $125.00, the current Member Price is $184.60 (Discounted).
https://www.atctrailstore.org/catalog/iteminfo.cfm?itemid=190&compid=1
Emerald, be fair, I know how to truncate too.
There's a difference between quoting selectively something someone actually wrote and commenting upon it and removing the last 3 characters of a contraction which negates the meaning of a word and then trying to pass it off as something someone wrote.
Where did you get the price of $125.00...
Someone offered a used ATC guide set for sale in another thread which was active recently. I could be wrong, $125 may have been the asking price for the books only and I believe I saw they were sold and delivered.
Sometime I must post more detailed information about how to buy, ship, return and resell an ATC map set. I don't think it's as complicated as some would have us believe. The article I linked earlier in this thread contains information about the range of weight in grams of ATC's maps.
Bulldawg
11-28-2009, 16:40
.figure out where to meet the National Geographic film crew...etc.
Funny, and the remark about "southern eyes", poor form.:eek::eek:
Johnny Thunder
11-28-2009, 16:59
Funny, and the remark about "southern eyes", poor form.:eek::eek:
I didn't mean anything negative by the southern eyes thing...just that the Southern trail clubs all publish maps in a similar format. The Georgia maps are like the NC maps are (sort of) similar to the Tennessee maps, etc.
I meant that you were used to the similarity of the maps down South and that the SNP maps probably looked different. The NG was meant as a joke.
From what i remember the SNP maps were probably the worst of the set.
Johnny Thunder
11-28-2009, 17:04
quoting selectively negates the meaning of something someone wrote.
Emerald, I couldn't agree more.
No, quoting selectively doesn't in the instance you claim and you are not quoting at all. You are fabricating and would accomplish more by discussing maps.
Bulldawg
11-28-2009, 17:35
I didn't mean anything negative by the southern eyes thing...just that the Southern trail clubs all publish maps in a similar format. The Georgia maps are like the NC maps are (sort of) similar to the Tennessee maps, etc.
I meant that you were used to the similarity of the maps down South and that the SNP maps probably looked different. The NG was meant as a joke.
From what i remember the SNP maps were probably the worst of the set.
I know man, I know, just messing with ya a little, something this place could use occasionally. Yeah, SNP maps were bad. I was able to figure them out and all, but it was a lot of paper for a hundred or so miles of trail.:rolleyes::cool::cool:
Punch Chaco in the arm when he gets back and you see his ass.
There's no doubt good reasons why PATC made the choices they did. We could speculate, but why not ask them instead?
Bulldawg
11-28-2009, 17:56
There's no doubt good reasons why PATC made the choices they did. We could speculate, but why not ask them instead?
Why not just call a spade a spade Shades of Gray and not worry about the reasons?
They no doubt believe they serve their club's interests and the public better by selling a guide with a broader focus. Does not Guide to the Appalachian Trail in Georgia and North Carolina include a map which covers all of GSMNP? Certain individuals posting to this thread probably think that's wasteful of paper too until the day it becomes useful to them.
Why must map standards be uniform trailwide? Next y'all will make a fuss about the overlapping guides in Pennsylvania south of Susquehanna River. There's a good reason for that too.
emerald
Johnny Thunder
11-28-2009, 22:35
They no doubt believe they serve their club's interests and the public better by selling a guide with a broader focus. Does not Guide to the Appalachian Trail in Georgia and North Carolina include a map which covers all of GSMNP? Certain invividuals posting to this thread probably think that's wasteful of paper too until the day it becomes useful to them.
Why must map standards be uniform trailwide? Next y'all will make a fuss about the overlapping guides in Pennsylvania south of Susquehanna River. There's a good reason for that too.
emerald
Emerald, I feel like either we've gotten off on the wrong foot or you have a serious reading comprehension issue to go along with those citation problems.
I've repeatedly stated that, "Maps printed with information upwards of 10 miles away from the AT...printed one sided...well, that just falls into the category of "needlessly wasteful through-hike related things."
And, "It's not the weight of the map but instead how wasteful it is for a through hiker."
Or, "I realize that some hikers want the depth of information found on the current map set. But others, discouraged by the current size (weight) and cost will look elsewhere or chose to not carry them at all. "
Finally, "All of those things can be accomplished on streamlined maps infinitely better suited for through hikers. "
I mean, can I be any more clear? I haven't at any point challenged that there isn't a logical reason behind the current club-published map sets. The PATC must genuinely believe that by basically reprinting the SNP maps with the AT highlighted they're serving the greater good. That's fine and it's in their best interests to do so.
What I do take offense to is your repeated assertion that the ATC maps are great for through hikers. If PA wants to publish 12 maps and two guidebooks, and that works for them then great...but, don't try to tell me that's the end all, be all for someone who'll pass through the state in a week's time.
In a Long Distance Hiker's hands the ATC map set is wasteful of more than just paper. And don't try to wag that big foreboding finger at me thinking I'm going to be scared by the presupposed reality that somebody on the internet told me I'd live to regret my words.
You clearly want the last word in this one so here you go. It's yours.
Now's where you tell me that it's worked for thousands of other people before and there's no reason to fix it.
Or, (my personal favorite) that if I'm so invested in it I should fix it.
Maybe, through hikers are just too small a group to individually cater to...because, you know, I haven't already provided one example of a similar trail with maps better suited to through hikers.
Take your pick. I mean, we've already drifted far enough away from Rajun Cajun's original question.
You know, you might be all right or as near as possible for a through hiker after all. Maybe you do get it. The world and the A.T. doesn't revolve around through hikers and through hiking.
Maybe some day someone will come up with a better solution that doesn't weigh more than maps, doesn't require batteries, a place to recharge them and generates income to compensate the individual(s) who provide(s) the service. When someone does, I'm sure we will hear all about it here, provided we are still in business.
As far as the opening post will take us in the direction of something better, I'm all ears. Free maps on the Internet are one thing, but what is someone to carry in the field and how much does it cost relative to the gold standard? NPS and ATC both have free maps on the Internet and I've linked them many times. Who has something better, that's customizable, to carry in the field that can be printed on equipment everyone has in his or her home office?
thelowend
01-21-2010, 02:24
Yeah... back to the subject.. I just read that thread and IO felt like I walked into a kindergarten class.. anyways, for those who have purchase maps but haven't sprung for the super duper ATC sanctioned ones, which ones did you buy and how did you like them? If I could get just the maps for each section I would be happy, I just don't want all the extras in the box pictured..
"Maybe, through hikers are just too small a group to individually cater to...because, you know, I haven't already provided one example of a similar trail with maps better suited to through hikers."
Based on what's available for a smaller annual number of thru-hikers on the PCT, I don't think this is the case, perhaps more just randomly what individuals decide (or not decide) to work on.
The AT is the most populated of the long trails in the U.S. but the PCT has a couple of better map options for thru-hikers than I've seen for the AT. That could be, however, because maps are more needed on the PCT.
FWIW, the couple of options I'm thinking of are the maps included in the three Wilderness Press PCT guidebooks (http://www.wildernesspress.com/authors.php?authorid=313), and the PCT Atlas (http://www.blackwoodspress.com/pct/atlas/index.htm).
What I suspect is that since the existing set of guidebooks (AT Guide, AT Companion) are smaller, lighter, and likely cheaper without the inclusion of any form of trail map that they'll remain that way. But who knows! Erik the Black only recently did the PCT Atlas; if there's a perceived market, it seems like someone might eventually deliver some form of maps designed for AT thru-hikers.
Alternatively, perhaps someone might opt to do something like what Halfmile did for the PCT (http://www.pctmap.net/) to offer free USGS map images with the trail trace shown, something that folks could print for themselves. Of course USGS maps for the AT are free online anyway (http://trailogic.com/atquadlist.html); I imagine that some freeware of shareware option wouldn't be hard to find to make it easy to print out desired map sheets, albeit without the trail trace.
Carrying a bunch of single sided maps is one of my few pet peeves.
Pringles
01-21-2010, 12:28
It may not have the information you want, and it's not free, but Mapdanas (example http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___23996 ) might provide the information you need without so much cost. ???
Beth
Printable AT Maps (http://www.trailsource.com/appalachian-trail/?gclid=CPDg9N2GsZ8CFQmdnAoddjAv_A)
Click on the Share Button to print.
The GMC Long Trail maps are excellent (especially the second edition) - not quite enough detail for Mt. Mansfield but fine for everything else. They actually do go out far enough to show parallel roads and trailhead access points. They use a small type size but the cartographer's artistry makes them very clear.
At least to my eyes. I took them to another trail club at the start of a map revamping process and the (well into their 70's) eminences grises of the club proclaimed the type size too small and unreadable on the Long Trail maps, compared to their old maps - which somewhat resembled the old KTA A.T. maps (but were drawn much better). We wound up having to compromise at 1:50,000 scale, but did at least get them double sided printed for 75 miles per map.
PATC is revamping their maps currently; if folks want them to revise as double sided, I suggest contacting them directly to make that point. I don't know that any of their relevant folks pay attention to WB.
I'll also make the point (since I've skipped saying this for about ten map threads now) that map and guide sales supply a proportionally very large income to the hiking organizations that maintain the footpaths you hike. With the revolution in mapping technology this revenue base is seriously threatened. What is the next model to pay for our footpaths? I wish I knew the answer.
housefull
02-01-2010, 19:18
I accept with information:
1. major blueblazes up or around mountains.
2. where can I expect to camp (stealth or otherwise).
3. where's water. if water's not marked where can I expect to find a wet weather drainage.
4. where does this road go? where does this trail go? :sun