View Full Version : Fears about condensation...
I have a REI Quartdome T1 (http://www.rei.com/product/761891) and a REI Sub Kilo (I know I got the woman's long version but its what REI sent me when the mens overstock was back ordered:rolleyes:...)
I have done a few week long trips with it now and I am very concerned about condensation inside the tent and it making my bag wet. Now this isn't a big deal for a 5 day trip but I am worried about this for my thru-hike.
What do you guys/girls do to help prevent condensation when you have a down bag? Would something as simple as putting a towel or sleeping pad help or would the sleeping pad just get the condensation on it too?
Not really sure why I can't edit my posts but for some reason my sleeping bag link didn't work. So here it is... REI Sub Kilo (http://www.rei.com/product/780904)
One question, then a couple comments.
Are you happy with the woman's bag? Not too tight in the shoulders?
You will always have some condensation to deal with. A double wall tent keeps most of it away from your bag, but if you have a bathtub floor, you will still get wet if you move up against it. If you have room to place your pack or something between you and the sidewalls, that will help. About a sleeping pad. You need one for insulation. A down bag will offer virtually no insulation from the ground. It will not cause more condensation and will prevent the condensation under your bag if that's what you are getting.
Regarding it not being bad for a 5-day trip, but more of a problem for a thru. A thru hike is nothing more than a series of 4 or 5 day trips, just strung out back to back. You should have opportunities daily, surly every 4 or 5 days to dry your gear. When carrying a down bag, make sure to take advantage of every opportunity to air your bag in the sun, even if you don't think it is damp - it is if you slept in it. An hour or two or three of hanging in the sun each day possible while you set up camp and fix dinner will do wonders for keeping your down dry and comfortable. Just make sure to bring it in before the evening dew starts to form. If the only sun is during the afternoon while you are hiking, and it's been a couple days since you could dry your bag, hang it over your pack while you hike, using the footbox like a hood. Works well.
Good Luck and HAVE FUN!!!
Are you happy with the woman's bag? Not too tight in the shoulders?
I was worried about that at first because I do have broad shoulders but I have had no problems with it at all.
A thru hike is nothing more than a series of 4 or 5 day trips, just strung out back to back.
I never really thought about it like that. I had never hung the bag out while hiking I would worry about it ripping/getting dirty. I always let it dry good once I'm home safe and would deal with slight dampness every night while hiking. Good incite and good idea, thank you.
Just make certain your shoulders aren't compressing the down - will end up cold.
Have to choose where you hang the bag while hiking, obviously not while going through wet brush or climbing over blow-downs, but if the conditions are right it works well.
Where you pitch your tent is a major part of reducing condensation.
A breeze will almost completely eliminate condensation.
Try to avoid pitching a single wall tent near a stream or pond.
I've had good luck locating my tent under a tree with with a large canopy. That really keeps condensation to a minimum.
My most successful trick was buying a two person tent for only myself. That keeps me and my gear dry all night long.
bigcranky
11-30-2009, 17:20
The down in your bag is likely to get wet more from your perspiration as you sleep than from condensation inside your tent. I take out my bag as often as once a day when the sun is shining, open it flat, and drape it over a bush or rock. Flip it over after a little while. Lunch is usually a good time for this, but it can be first thing in the morning when I am packing up, or when I get to camp for the evening. This makes a huge difference in loft in my down bag.
I put my backpack at my feet, covered sometimes, so that it will press against the tent wall instead of my bag. Otherwise, I don't have to worry at all about my sides in my Six Moon Designs Lunar Solor... one side is so far off and the other side is no-see-um
My most successful trick was buying a two person tent for only myself. That keeps me and my gear dry all night long.
I was wondering if that would help... I was thinking about upgrading to the REI Quarter Dome T2. Haven't decided if it's worth it yet as I love my little T1.(other then the condensation :rolleyes:)
The down in your bag is likely to get wet more from your perspiration as you sleep than from condensation inside your tent.
While I agree it's not all condensation in this case a lot of it is. I wake up in the middle of the night can feel the out side of my bag getting wet and the inside of my tent floor wet... I will have to make sure I leave it out during break times! :)
I put my backpack at my feet, covered sometimes, so that it will press against the tent wall instead of my bag.
Sadly my bag doesn't fit inside my tent.
if i'm out longer than a few days, i always have a trash compacter bag in my pack. sometimes to line the whole inside of the pack, sometimes around my bag and clothes and sometimes just packed away in case. if it looks like a heavy condenstion night, i'll put the trash bag over the bottom of my bag since my feet are really the only part that ever might touch the sides.
beakerman
11-30-2009, 18:01
Your floor is geting wet? what is that floor made of? I see they say "coated rispstop nylon" but coated with what? If it's truely coated as in urethane coated then the only way it can get wet is if you are sweating up a storm. Otherwise yoru moisture could be coming up from the ground. I'm not intemately familiar with this tent so I am only operating from my previous experiences with light weight tent/floor materials.
I found that the straight nylon (not urethane coated) tends to get wetter inside than one of those old school urethane coated or even the poly/tarp type floors. This is fixed easily enough with a non-permeable membrane under teh tent--a proper ground cloth. It can be something as simple as a sheet of plastic shower curtain or you can get all fancy and cut up a poly-tarp to size and flash the edges.
That's just my thoughts on this. Like I said I dont have that particular tent but I always use a ground cloth and my tent floor is almost never wet.
stranger
11-30-2009, 20:58
If you are just talking about the footbox of the bag then simply slide a breathable wind jacket over the foot of the bag, so basically you would zip up the jacket, then slide your feet into the opening and pull the jacket up around your footbox.
I used a Marmot DriClime for this, a waterproof jacket might not be breathable enough. Works well for me.
And you will have condensation on any tent
bigcranky
11-30-2009, 22:12
a waterproof jacket might not be breathable enough.
A waterproof jacket is definitely not breathable enough. My wife has tried that with her w/b rain shell, and while it stops the wind from coming through the bag, you still end up with a wet bag inside.
A wind shirt will act like a breathable bivy sack, adding wind and moisture protection. (I'm not talking about Goretex bivies here, though.)
you people must sweat like crazy in your bags. the only condensation i've ever had to worry about is from the tent.
My experience is very much in line with bigcranky...
The down in your bag is likely to get wet more from your perspiration as you sleep than from condensation inside your tent.
I take out my bag as often as once a day when the sun is shining, open it flat, and drape it over a bush or rock. Flip it over after a little while. Lunch is usually a good time for this, but it can be first thing in the morning when I am packing up, or when I get to camp for the evening. This makes a huge difference in loft in my down bag.
This approach worked well for my wife and I as well. We didn't need to utilize it often throughout our thru hike, however. Our concern about hiking with down bags was, by in large, misplaced.
MintakaCat
11-30-2009, 23:05
I've got a MH Phantom 0 and from time to time it will rub up against the tent and get condensation on it but it's no big deal. The nylon on the bag does a good job keeping the down dry from such events.
I got to agree with Kanga, I don't see how some folks sweat so much in their bags.
I was worried about that at first because I do have broad shoulders but I have had no problems with it at all.
I never really thought about it like that. I had never hung the bag out while hiking I would worry about it ripping/getting dirty. I always let it dry good once I'm home safe and would deal with slight dampness every night while hiking. Good incite and good idea, thank you.
Insight, not incite. Two completely different meanings.
Lots of folks find themselves tossing their sleeping bags into a clothes dryer when they get into town if it's gotten damp.
Any dry day you have, especially with a breeze, hang your bag over a tree branch, fence, whatever, when you stop for lunch if it has gotten damp.
Works for me on long section hikes. If you carry a bit of extra line say, once you take down your bear bag before breakfast, set up a clothesline and hang your damp belongings on it while you have breakfast. Every little bit helps.
Watch hanging the bag on a bush - ticks.
if it looks like a heavy condenstion night, i'll put the trash bag over the bottom of my bag since my feet are really the only part that ever might touch the sides.
I thought about doing this but I wasn't sure if this would just cause condensation on the inside of the trash bags.
This is fixed easily enough with a non-permeable membrane under teh tent--a proper ground cloth. It can be something as simple as a sheet of plastic shower curtain or you can get all fancy and cut up a poly-tarp to size and flash the edges.
I use the tents foot print. I'm not sure if me sweating is the blame or if it's the weather out side. The rain Fly will get covered in it along with the base of the tent.
If you are just talking about the footbox of the bag then simply slide a breathable wind jacket over the foot of the bag, so basically you would zip up the jacket, then slide your feet into the opening and pull the jacket up around your footbox.
I have thought about doing that. The only thing is it's not just the foot box but the whole tent is so narrow that the problem is the whole bag. I could make a breathable cover almost like an indoor bivvy. Does any one have experience with that?
you people must sweat like crazy in your bags. the only condensation i've ever had to worry about is from the tent.
So a 15 Degree bag isn't the best choice in summer but it's all I got for now. I keep it unzipped and it becomes more of a sleeping pad at times, I'm trying to make it work so I don't have to buy a summer bag for my thru.
Insight, not incite. Two completely different meanings.
Thank you. :)
Lots of folks find themselves tossing their sleeping bags into a clothes dryer when they get into town if it's gotten damp....
If you carry a bit of extra line say, once you take down your bear bag before breakfast, set up a clothesline and hang your damp belongings on it while you have breakfast. Every little bit helps.
Can you clean and/or dry a down bag in washer dryer? I haven't gotten around to reading the cleaning instructions yet. I would be worried about messing with the down feathers and temp rating. I planned on bringing string for hanging out things like shirts and socks on my thru. I should start doing so for sections and trying it out.
bigcranky
12-01-2009, 08:23
I got to agree with Kanga, I don't see how some folks sweat so much in their bags.
The human body is constantly producing moisture, otherwise the skin would dry up and crack. It's called "insensible perspiration" which is why you don't notice it. It's not the same as "sweat."
On early Polar expeditions it was common for sleeping bags to gain 30 or 40 pounds of weight from this phenomenon. (I'm serious.) The solution for expeditions is to use a vapor barrier liner, but that's not a good solution for an AT hike, as it really only works well in very cold weather. Some expedition down bags come with a VBL built into the bag.
Another thing that can get your bag wet is breathing. So stop doing that :) Actually, it can be a problem for people who like to get all the way down inside their bags on a cold night -- the moisture from your breath will wet your insulation and reduce its loft. Even using the bag normally in winter, I often have a large wet patch around my face when I get up, from my breath condensing on my bag.
Don't put a trash bag over your sleeping bag -- you can end up soaked. If you really need the extra warmth, and the temps are well below freezing, put the trash bag *inside* your sleeping bag, as a VBL (climb inside the trash bag), which will add a lot of warmth and keep your bag lofting all the way. But it's also clammy and damp inside a VBL, though you get used to it pretty quickly, in my experience.
A good down bag is quite water resistant. The down itself is much more water repellent than many people think, and the exterior fabric can get very wet and still protect the down. Just hang it up in the sun every day or two, and you'll be fine.
Finally, if you are really getting that wet inside your tent -- on the floor, no less! -- you may want to look into how you are choosing camp sites, how you are using your tent (i.e., how to maximize ventilation), or maybe start looking for a new tent.
Just make certain your shoulders aren't compressing the down - will end up cold.
Did a little comparison because you got me worried. It has the same shoulder width as the men's regular and has an extra inch at the hips. So it's only down fall is the color. :)
skinewmexico
12-01-2009, 11:50
I'm pretty shocked that a double wall tent has condensation (that you can touch) at all. But I'm sure that one of the single-wall haters (due to condensation) can explain that. Sounds like not enough air flow to me, never had that problem with my T3.
I'm pretty shocked that a double wall tent has condensation (that you can touch) at all. But I'm sure that one of the single-wall haters (due to condensation) can explain that. Sounds like not enough air flow to me, never had that problem with my T3.
I was thinking that it might be an air flow issue. I have tried opening the Vents. Maybe I need to double check they are open good. I have been thinking about upgrading to a T2 for my Thru not only because of the extra space but I get paranoid about leaving my pack in the vestibule even know it's always dry. I'm just not sure if it's worth the extra weight and more importantly extra money.
Pedaling Fool
12-01-2009, 12:19
Do you use your rainfly all the time? I hardly use it, except when it's very, very cold or obviously raining. The other times I have it connected at one end of my tent, at-the-ready in case it starts raining, then I throw it over my tent and connect the other end.
Do you use your rainfly all the time? I hardly use it, except when it's very, very cold or obviously raining. The other times I have it connected at one end of my tent, at-the-ready in case it starts raining, then I throw it over my tent and connect the other end.
I try to have have it half way set up so all I have to do in the middle of the night is flip it over the other half and attached 2 strings dry and covered in less then a minute.
However, my last 2 week long trips it rained for 4 out of 5 days and the other one it was snowing. I need to get a fair weather trip in to test it. I was thinking about setting it up inside my house and sleeping in it as a control test.
Pedaling Fool
12-01-2009, 12:43
I try to have have it half way set up so all I have to do in the middle of the night is flip it over the other half and attached 2 strings dry and covered in less then a minute.
However, my last 2 week long trips it rained for 4 out of 5 days and the other one it was snowing. I need to get a fair weather trip in to test it. I was thinking about setting it up inside my house and sleeping in it as a control test.
I'm not sure how waterproof rainflys are, because when I've been out in heavy rains (I mean very heavy) it seems as though after a while the fly gets saturated and water begins to permeate through. Yet, when I soak it with my hose the water beads up and rolls off.
Also, when it rains the humidity level is very high, so any moisture coming off your body is not being sucked up and away too quickly, so you will see condensation.
No matter how breathable a fabric is, it’s not near a breathable a bare skin, yet bare skin does accumulate moisture and any breathable fabric in between the bare skin and the atmosphere will inhibit evaporation. Manufacturers trying to sell their product overstate the wicking effect of all breathable products.
I wouldn’t buy a new tent because of the condensation issue, your tent is about as ventilated as they get. Condensation never hurt my down bag.
Pedaling Fool
12-01-2009, 12:45
BTW, I don't even have my fly half way up, I have it laying on the ground connected to the tent. If it starts raining I can have it pulled over and connected to the other side in less than a minute.
I'm not sure how waterproof rainflys are, because when I've been out in heavy rains (I mean very heavy) it seems as though after a while the fly gets saturated and water begins to permeate through.
I haven't had that issue and I have been is some nasty thunder storms. I'll have to keep an eye out for it.
I'll still have some time so I'll do some more test hikes.
If I'm thinking about making a breathable sack to wrap the sleeping bag in is it safe to say I shouldn't make it out of cotton? Or doesn't it matter because I'm not wearing it?
beakerman
12-01-2009, 16:23
I'm not sure how waterproof rainflys are, because when I've been out in heavy rains (I mean very heavy) it seems as though after a while the fly gets saturated and water begins to permeate through. Yet, when I soak it with my hose the water beads up and rolls off.
Yeah I've seen the same thing when I'm on the beach in a nasty thunderstorm. The rain seems to be hitting so hard it forces it's way through the weave of the rainfly. It has to be coming down real hard for that though...youknow: that kind of rain that stings when it hits you kind of hard.
I typicaly don't get that in the woods because the trees tend to break tha sort of stuff up before it blasts it's way through.
The down in your bag is likely to get wet more from your perspiration as you sleep than from condensation inside your tent. I take out my bag as often as once a day when the sun is shining, open it flat, and drape it over a bush or rock. Flip it over after a little while. Lunch is usually a good time for this, but it can be first thing in the morning when I am packing up, or when I get to camp for the evening. This makes a huge difference in loft in my down bag.
This will also help with the smell. The UV rays from the sun kill the bacteria on the bag and helps keep the smell to a minimum.
skinewmexico
12-02-2009, 01:38
Get a Ti Goat bivy, or treat your bag with a spray on DWR.
garlic08
12-02-2009, 11:05
I'm pretty shocked that a double wall tent has condensation (that you can touch) at all. But I'm sure that one of the single-wall haters (due to condensation) can explain that. Sounds like not enough air flow to me, never had that problem with my T3.
I know this makes no sense, but I recently had the same problem as the OP. After a season of backpacking with my single-wall tent, my wife picked me up and we car-camped with her two-wall tent and it was the worst condensation I'd experienced all year. I blame it on the crappy site in an established campground, down low near a river. I avoid that kind of site in the backcountry. The problem was on the rolled-up sides of the bathtub floor, and with two people and a small dog in the tent, it was difficult to avoid touching it. The extra perspiration and respiration in the tent didn't help, either, I'm sure.
I wouldn't consider a cotton cover for the bag. If that thing gets wet, it might stay wet (and heavy) for a long time and it'll be useless. I don't like drapping anything over the bag. It really needs to breathe well.
On a long wet trip, I control moisture by 1) site selection, 2) ventilation, 3) removing condensation by drying inside with a bandanna, 4) take every advantage to dry gear during the day in sun and/or wind. Even 5 or 10 minutes can't hurt. Great point above about the UV cutting the stink, too.
I wouldn't consider a cotton cover for the bag. If that thing gets wet, it might stay wet (and heavy) for a long time and it'll be useless. I don't like drapping anything over the bag. It really needs to breathe well.
You right maybe not cotton, but a synthetic that will dry easilly. It's mostly on the side walls so maybe a thin shell would protect it or just something under it.
On a long wet trip, I control moisture by 1) site selection, 2) ventilation, 3) removing condensation by drying inside with a bandanna, 4) take every advantage to dry gear during the day in sun and/or wind. Even 5 or 10 minutes can't hurt. Great point above about the UV cutting the stink, too.
I agree with what your are saying but this has also become an issue of it being bone dry during the start of the night. Then waking up in the middle of the night to discover the bathtub floor wet from the condensation.
[QUOTE=garlic08;927581]my wife picked me up and we car-camped with her two-wall tent and it was the worst condensation I'd experienced all year. I blame it on the crappy site in an established campground, down low near a river. I avoid that kind of site in the backcountry. The problem was on the rolled-up sides of the bathtub floor, and with two people and a small dog in the tent, it was difficult to avoid touching it. The extra perspiration and respiration in the tent didn't help, either, I'm sure.
I have had it happen in a two (fabric) wall tent. Closed the door up to much. Have had frost inside more than once. Does make it warmer tho.
Tenting in a fogbank, everything feels wet.
You could blame it on the dog huffing and puffing.:eek:
Appalachian Tater
12-02-2009, 22:15
Have you tested your bag? I can hold mine under the shower and water rolls off. If the shell of your bag isn't waterproof, treat it or buy a better bag!
Have you tested your bag? I can hold mine under the shower and water rolls off. If the shell of your bag isn't waterproof, treat it or buy a better bag!
I have not.... I Don't think I want too....The shell might be slightly water proof but I don't want to risk destroying it...
bigcranky
12-03-2009, 07:44
I have not.... I Don't think I want too....The shell might be slightly water proof but I don't want to risk destroying it...
Dude, 2 things:
1. Down comes from ducks. They swim in water all day long.
2. What do you think happens when you wash your bag? It gets wet. It dries out. It's fine. (Assuming you follow the instructions.)
If you have the Sub Kilo, that has a pretty good hi tech shell material. It might need some new DWR applied to keep it repelling water. If you don't want to climb in the shower with your bag (I wouldn't either), try pouring water from a cup over the bag, and see what happens. If it rolls off, you're all good. If not, check an outfitter for a spray on DWR for sleeping bags.
Keeping your stuff as dry as possible is always nice, and you've gotten some good tips on reducing condensation. But scores of times I've gotten the toe of my down sleeping bag wet from condensation from the tent or tarp walls. It's no big deal. A shelter leaking rainwater can quickly soak a sleeping bag, but condensation has a way of not building up to a significant degree. SEEING water on the outside of the toe of your bag may look scary but your feet will still be warm and dry on the inside and as long as the insulation doesn't get soaked and clumped up it's no big deal. And it won't reach that point from condensation as long as you dry out your bag when you can. Your body is a heater, too, and will help prevent the condensation moisture from building up.
In summary,
Minimize condensation.
Dry your bag when you can.
If you do those things you have Nothing to Fear but Fear Itself
A shelter leaking rainwater can quickly soak a sleeping bag, but condensation has a way of not building up to a significant degree. SEEING water on the outside of the toe of your bag may look scary but your feet will still be warm and dry on the inside and as long as the insulation doesn't get soaked and clumped up it's no big deal.
I agree. I would just see the whole sides/bottom of my bag wet and I was wondering the sort of issues I might have during a thru like that and any methods of preventing it.
Dude, 2 things:
1. Down comes from ducks. They swim in water all day long.
2. What do you think happens when you wash your bag? It gets wet. It dries out. It's fine. (Assuming you follow the instructions.)
If you have the Sub Kilo, that has a pretty good hi tech shell material. It might need some new DWR applied to keep it repelling water. If you don't want to climb in the shower with your bag (I wouldn't either), try pouring water from a cup over the bag, and see what happens. If it rolls off, you're all good. If not, check an outfitter for a spray on DWR for sleeping bags.
1) Yes but Ducks use their feathers to keep them dry not their down. They expect it to get wet and feathers repel water. Down feathers for human use comes from the under "Dry" layer of feathers.
2. I haven't washed my bag yet. I would need to read the cleaning instructions but based on this thread I would say I have learned you can wash them in water, where feather items need to by dry cleaned(as they repel water)
Good call on the DWR I wasn't aware they had such a product. I will have to give my bag the water test tonight(and Maybe wash it).
Is there any negative impact of adding DWR even if my big currently doesn't need it?
skinewmexico
12-03-2009, 12:05
Be careful how you wash it, and use the right soap. But if you haven't used it 30-40 nights, I wouldn't wash it.
bigcranky
12-03-2009, 15:53
1) Yes but Ducks use their feathers to keep them dry not their down. They expect it to get wet and feathers repel water. Down feathers for human use comes from the under "Dry" layer of feathers.
You are absolutely correct. My point is that, properly protected, down can sit *submerged in water* forever. With a good shell fabric, a little condensation or even a light rain won't hurt the down.
I wash my bags about every other year. It's something of a PITA to do it right, but the end result is worth it.
I agree, you probably do not need to wash your bag yet. While it is helpful when the bag is dirty, it isn't entirely without risk. Don't wash it if it's not needed.
I think you are obsessing about the condensation. First, the bag getting wet will not ruin it. Second, follow the suggestions given here to minimize the effects of condensation on your bag.
If and when it's time to wash your bag, you probably can't get any better advice then from Western Mountaineering, manufacturers of some of the BEST down products made.
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Product%20Tips%20and%20Care
One final note, DO NOT Dry Clean Down. Most Dry Cleaners are not equipped or knowledgeable about proper methods.
I think you are obsessing about the condensation. First, the bag getting wet will not ruin it. Second, follow the suggestions given here to minimize the effects of condensation on your bag.
I wouldn't say obsessing about it, just looking at everyone's different thoughts and ideas. I would say I got a lot of good opinions and knowledge from every one. Thanks!:)
I wouldn't say obsessing about it, just looking at everyone's different thoughts and ideas. I would say I got a lot of good opinions and knowledge from every one. Thanks!:)
Fair enough, just didn't want you to get bogged down in worry and possibly opt for synthetic just because you think condensation would be a major issue.
Have a GREAT hike!!!
Fair enough, just didn't want you to get bogged down in worry and possibly opt for synthetic just because you think condensation would be a major issue.
Ha, you made me laugh good show.
:D