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Daydream Believer
12-03-2009, 10:26
I did a little research on this before posting, but another discussion on a horse forum about carrying handguns for self protection has me wondering how many AT hikers feel it necessary to carry a handgun while hiking? My impression is that most here do not approve of carrying guns but I thought it would be interesting to see how many do and by gender.

I did some research and there have been like 9 murders through 2008 on the AT. That's not so bad when you figure there are probably 9 murders in one night in New York City.

First off I'm going to state that I am not against anyone's right to own or carry a gun. I am a veteran and I have served in a war...yes, I am also a woman. Not too many of us who can say that but after the last few decades, more and more can.

Anyway, I have carried bear spray on the AT but it never occurred to me to consider carrying a handgun or a concealed handgun. I worry more about the possibility of accidents or accidental shootings than I'd worry about someone assaulting me. Generally I do not hike alone but with my husband. I suppose if I were alone, that might change my thoughts a bit.

Anyway, I'd appreciate a friendly discussion on the topic.

The Weasel
12-03-2009, 10:29
Forgive my lack of modesty, but those interested in the topic might first read that section in my article "Law for Backpackers 101." There is more to the question about "carrying" than just deciding to put a gun in your pack or holster.

TW

Hooch
12-03-2009, 10:30
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f159/RaulMonkey/Animated/beating-a-dead-horse.gif
http://www.trainfortopdollar.com/trainfortopdollar/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/canofworms1.jpg

DrRichardCranium
12-03-2009, 10:32
I fully support the Second Amendment, but I would not carry a gun on the AT.

whisperingwind
12-03-2009, 10:39
Just added weight for no good reason. Just my opinion. I have not carried a gun on the AT, and never needed one.:)

Daydream Believer
12-03-2009, 10:47
Sorry, I wasn't trying to start a fight...just really curious about how many people feel the need to carry a gun. I have someone on this other forum telling me what an amazingly dangerous thing it is to hike in the woods and on the AT...and I disagree with her. Quite honestly I was stunned at how many people recommended a gun to a woman who asked about personal safety equipment to acquire while walking her dogs in a public park in daylight.

I did research the topic and I would not carry the weight either unless there were some major changes in the crime rate on the trail. So if this topic offends anyone, I'm sorry. Perhaps the mods can delete it.

taildragger
12-03-2009, 10:52
I think Hooch is right, if you were to carry a dead horse and then procede to beat it whenever you feel threatened, then beat the ***** out of the dead horse, no one will mess with you, except for PETA

FritztheCat
12-03-2009, 10:56
I think the poll results will be interesting.

slugger
12-03-2009, 10:57
If you do a search I'm sure you will see a few other threads going over this topic.

Tuckahoe
12-03-2009, 11:15
Daydream -- the topic comes up quite often on the forum and there are most have a pretty firm opinion one way or the other. I am of the belief that it is very valid and even responsible consideration to arm one's self. It's certainly not a question of being fearful but a realization of the fact that you and only you are responsible for your own protection and self-defense. NO other soul has the responsibility or obligation to protect you.

I do not believe that those who do choose to arm themselves are not skittish people that live in fear of aspects of society. Those that I know are responsible people who see having a piece as merely a tool to protect themselves should it ever arise to that point.

Weasle -- I read your article and realize that from a legal standpoint, as well as the reality that there are 50 different state laws to contend with, but I was wishing there was more to section #5 on weapons. You may want to note for example that Federal law will change in February 2010 to bring National Park Service regulations on weapons in line with state laws making concealed weapons legal in NPS sites located states where concealed carry is legal.

Tuckahoe
12-03-2009, 11:18
I think the poll results will be interesting.

I think that the pole will reflect much the same breakdown as in society in general between those that have permits and carry and those that do not.

Lone Wolf
12-03-2009, 11:19
the more that carry, the merrier

Manwich
12-03-2009, 11:24
There hasn't ever been a murder on the trail north of PA.

Lone Wolf
12-03-2009, 11:26
There hasn't ever been a murder on the trail north of PA.

yet..........

A-Train
12-03-2009, 11:36
I did a little research on this before posting, but another discussion on a horse forum about carrying handguns for self protection has me wondering how many AT hikers feel it necessary to carry a handgun while hiking? My impression is that most here do not approve of carrying guns but I thought it would be interesting to see how many do and by gender.

I did some research and there have been like 9 murders through 2008 on the AT. That's not so bad when you figure there are probably 9 murders in one night in New York City.

First off I'm going to state that I am not against anyone's right to own or carry a gun. I am a veteran and I have served in a war...yes, I am also a woman. Not too many of us who can say that but after the last few decades, more and more can.

Anyway, I have carried bear spray on the AT but it never occurred to me to consider carrying a handgun or a concealed handgun. I worry more about the possibility of accidents or accidental shootings than I'd worry about someone assaulting me. Generally I do not hike alone but with my husband. I suppose if I were alone, that might change my thoughts a bit.

Anyway, I'd appreciate a friendly discussion on the topic.

You don't need a gun or bearspray on the AT. You'll only risk hurting an innocent bystander with either. The AT is a safe place filled with wonderful people. Camp away from roads and you've got nothing to worry about. Don't give in to societal paranoia and insecurities.

The Weasel
12-03-2009, 12:22
Weasle -- I read your article and realize that from a legal standpoint, as well as the reality that there are 50 different state laws to contend with, but I was wishing there was more to section #5 on weapons. You may want to note for example that Federal law will change in February 2010 to bring National Park Service regulations on weapons in line with state laws making concealed weapons legal in NPS sites located states where concealed carry is legal.

Tuck-

That's a very good point. Would you mind going to the article area and leaving a post there with the above and anything else you can add? That will serve others as an "update" until I do another revision, probably early next year. I'm also going to look for what restrictions may still be permitted by the NPS.

Thanks!

TW

jersey joe
12-03-2009, 12:29
I never saw a need to carry a gun on the AT.

The Weasel
12-03-2009, 12:42
Whatever one's feelings about guns, the following sums up most of the practicalities:

1) If by "gun" one includes long guns and shotguns, they are far too heavy and will terrify most other people along the trail, especially out of hunting season.

2) Handguns usually can't be carried easily in belt holsters by backpackers, and so must be carried inside a pack or, perhaps, in chest or thigh holsters, both of which make backpacking much harder. That makes "external carries" impractical for long hiking trips, but it also makes them inaccessible in the event they are needed while walking.

3) Revolvers in packs are dangerous if loaded, since shifting gear can cause an accidental firing, unless a trigger lock is in place, which makes immediate use even more difficult.

4) Automatics tend to be heavier than revolvers, but can be finicky in the presence of outside contaminants, e.g. pack crud. So they need to be in a case/holster/bag to protect them, including from water when it rains and your pack lets some water in. This also makes them harder to use quickly.

5) Most modern automatic pistols will weigh about 1.5 pounds unloaded. A full clip will add about another pound, and holstering/cases will add about 1 more. That means that the weight for a pistol will be about 3-4 pounds, or roughly 10% of packweight. That's a very major addition.

6) Clips will hold from 8 (plus one in the snout) to 30-odd rounds. If you need more ammunition for any reason, you cannot mail it, and resupply is much harder that for other resupply items.

7) Carrying a firearm into some restaurants, stores hostels (particularly those operated by churches), libraries, and government buildings may be a criminal offense. This includes United States Post Offices (and other federal buildings) even if a valid CCW permit is held. Similar laws may apply to state and local government buildings. This can mean that it is necessary to leave a weapon with your pack or elsewhere, which can also be a violation of state laws (leaving a weapon in an unsafe location accessible to others) and is dangerous in any event, leaving aside the risk of loss.

8) Handguns tend to be expensive, with prices for automatics ranging from a few hundred dollars into the thousands. This makes a handgun a very expensive part of your gear.

These are simply practicalities: Carrying a gun for a thru hike is very, very difficult.

Spokes
12-03-2009, 13:07
Guy goes into a gun store. He tells the salesman he's going to walk the entire Appalachain Trail. He needs to know what kind of handgun he should carry in case he runs into a bear.

The salesman says, "Carry any handgun you want. But if you're going to shoot a bear with it, be sure to grind off the front sight."

The guy looks perplexed. "Why should I grind off the front sight?"

"That way it won't hurt so bad when the bear takes it away and shoves it up your arse."

Lone Wolf
12-03-2009, 13:09
silly rabbit. a gun ain't for the bears, they're harmless. it's for the gary hilton's of the world

Reid
12-03-2009, 13:15
All men should know how to use a weapon such as a gun.

Reid
12-03-2009, 13:17
Not saying that you should always carry on the A.T. but I don't really see any issue in that either if you are responsible.

Elder
12-03-2009, 13:17
silly rabbit. a gun ain't for the bears, they're harmless. it's for the gary hilton's of the world

shootin's too good for him...give him to the women.:eek:

tenbeer
12-03-2009, 13:24
Back in the early ninties, I had a girlfriend that used to carry a 9mm glock. It was very heavy and I felt it was unneeded. Once while crossing a gravel road on the trail, a pickup truck with 6 guys rode by and stopped. The group were all drinking beer and started to hollow at my GF who was wearing very short shorts, which were in style at that time. They stopped the truck, and acted like they were going to get out. We just hightailed it up the trail, and never saw them again. I had talked her out of taking the gun this trip. Coincidently this was on Craigs Creek Rd where the two Va. Tech students were tragically murdered this year, and they still haven't solved the case

Tuckahoe
12-03-2009, 13:37
Whatever one's feelings about guns, the following sums up most of the practicalities:

1) If by "gun" one includes long guns and shotguns, they are far too heavy and will terrify most other people along the trail, especially out of hunting season.

2) Handguns usually can't be carried easily in belt holsters by backpackers, and so must be carried inside a pack or, perhaps, in chest or thigh holsters, both of which make backpacking much harder. That makes "external carries" impractical for long hiking trips, but it also makes them inaccessible in the event they are needed while walking.

3) Revolvers in packs are dangerous if loaded, since shifting gear can cause an accidental firing, unless a trigger lock is in place, which makes immediate use even more difficult.

4) Automatics tend to be heavier than revolvers, but can be finicky in the presence of outside contaminants, e.g. pack crud. So they need to be in a case/holster/bag to protect them, including from water when it rains and your pack lets some water in. This also makes them harder to use quickly.

5) Most modern automatic pistols will weigh about 1.5 pounds unloaded. A full clip will add about another pound, and holstering/cases will add about 1 more. That means that the weight for a pistol will be about 3-4 pounds, or roughly 10% of packweight. That's a very major addition.

6) Clips will hold from 8 (plus one in the snout) to 30-odd rounds. If you need more ammunition for any reason, you cannot mail it, and resupply is much harder that for other resupply items.

7) Carrying a firearm into some restaurants, stores hostels (particularly those operated by churches), libraries, and government buildings may be a criminal offense. This includes United States Post Offices (and other federal buildings) even if a valid CCW permit is held. Similar laws may apply to state and local government buildings. This can mean that it is necessary to leave a weapon with your pack or elsewhere, which can also be a violation of state laws (leaving a weapon in an unsafe location accessible to others) and is dangerous in any event, leaving aside the risk of loss.

8) Handguns tend to be expensive, with prices for automatics ranging from a few hundred dollars into the thousands. This makes a handgun a very expensive part of your gear.

These are simply practicalities: Carrying a gun for a thru hike is very, very difficult.

Weasle, I agree with you very much and regardless of where one stands on the issue, you have made some very valid points. Whether discussing daily carry, or carrying while backpacking, those that make the choice to carry really must consider the various issues. Further it is extremely important to also understand the state laws where you intend to carry.

Backpacking brings a different set of issues and point #2 is very valid. Daily out and about I prefer an inside the waistband holster. Something that is not going to work at all with the way that a backpack is positioned. Nor am I comfortable placing a piece in my pack, especially where I cannot get to it at the moment that God forbid, its actually needed. As far as the dangers of putting a piece in the pack, hammerless, double-action only revolvers are ideal for such an issue.

On #4 in this day and time autos are not at all as finiky as they might have been in their early days. In this day and time they are tested against some of the harshest environments and pack crud doesnt event come close. The single biggest issue with any auto pistol is the use of poor quality magazines to feed ammunition.

On weight, modern polymers have actually made handguns extremely light weight. My full size 1911 is just under 2 1/2 pounds empty and still just under 3 when loaded -- and that is old school. Someone wanting light weight options can choose from models such as Ruger's Lightwight Compact Revolver (LCR) 13.5 ounces, which happens to weigh the same as the MSR .75 litter cook put I have. Kel-tec offers auto pistols that weigh in at 14 ounces down to 6.8 ounces

And on #7 YES please know the law.

mudhead
12-03-2009, 13:37
Glad the two of you are OK.:)


Bout time for a "pass every white patch of paint and nod" thread ain't it?

The Weasel
12-03-2009, 13:40
Interesting post I found from a gun owner in Tenn notes that Tenn law prohibits guns not only in a lot of stores (if posted) but ANY place where alcohol is served, and prohibits carrying a gun ANY time you have been drinking, no matter how little. Virginia law appears to be the same. I'm going to guess that most states are also this way.

TW

ShelterLeopard
12-03-2009, 13:44
Sorry, I wasn't trying to start a fight...just really curious about how many people feel the need to carry a gun. I have someone on this other forum telling me what an amazingly dangerous thing it is to hike in the woods and on the AT...and I disagree with her. Quite honestly I was stunned at how many people recommended a gun to a woman who asked about personal safety equipment to acquire while walking her dogs in a public park in daylight.

I did research the topic and I would not carry the weight either unless there were some major changes in the crime rate on the trail. So if this topic offends anyone, I'm sorry. Perhaps the mods can delete it.

Hey, don't back down, you asked a very valid question. Many people ask this, and it is somewhat controversial on this site (well, people have different opinions and get heated up about what they say).

Don't be sorry, if people are offended by you asking if anyone carries a gun, it's their problem.

As for me, I'm not afraid of guns, I don't really mind guns, but I would prefer not to be near some people who have guns. I know that many people are extremely responsible when it comes to using/caring for/ carrying a gun, but there are some who aren't responsible, and I'd rather not be near them when they have a powerful weapon. And it is hard to distinguish between who is or isn't responsible. So on the whole, I'm more comfortable when people don't carry guns.

But I do support the right to bear arms.

And the right to arm bears.

The Weasel
12-03-2009, 13:48
Tuck:

Excellent post. On weight, though, I think it's like most other items; the lighter they are, the more they cost, at least for reliable/quality brands. (Saturday night specials are as dangerous to owners as anyone else, in my experience.) Kel-tecs, used, are probably about $350 and up.

I left out one other "practicality": If a gun is in your pack, even in a shelter that's a big delay to get it out in the event of a risky situation, and if you do, you're going to scare hell out of everyone else in the shelter as you pull it out. If you have it out already, even holstered, you are going to scare a lot of people. I think a lot of people would be reluctant to hike with someone who is armed in the informal groups that form in a thru hike. That means that if you're carrying, you'll probably end up not using shelters (LW will cheer for that) and being somewhat isolated personally.

TW

The Weasel
12-03-2009, 13:49
But I do support the right to bear arms.

And the right to arm bears.

Why do you think bears need to have arms? Aren't paws good enough?:D

TW

tagg
12-03-2009, 14:15
I'm new to hiking and to the AT, and when I went on my first solo week-long hike in September, I carried a handgun. I read a lot on the subject in this forum before I left and knew that I probably would not need it, but I kept running the "what if" scenarios through my head when packing before my trip, and in the end it made it's way into my pack. I'm very careful with guns and nobody I encountered ever knew that I had it. And of course I never ended up needing to even take it out of the holster, but I will admit I slept a little more soundly alone in the woods for the first time knowing it was beside me. That being said, I also learned a lot about unnecessary pack weight (like the two fuel cannisters I was carrying - what was I thinking?), and when I go back next year I will probably leave the extra 3 pounds of steel at home. There were many times that week that I thought I was going to die of exhaustion from lugging my pack up one mountain after another, but I never thought I was going to die at the hands of a bear or a hillbilly. That being said, I have no doubt that at some point while packing for my next trip, I'm going to have to quiet the second guessing and the "what ifs." To each his own, just be responsible and please don't shoot me by accident.

The Weasel
12-03-2009, 14:25
I never thought I was going to die at the hands of a bear or a hillbilly. That being said, I have no doubt that at some point while packing for my next trip, I'm going to have to quiet the second guessing and the "what ifs." To each his own, just be responsible and please don't shoot me by accident.


Can we shoot you on purpose if keep calling people along the trail, "Hillbillies"? :D

TW

Mags
12-03-2009, 14:35
Glad the two of you are OK.:)


Bout time for a "pass every white patch of paint and nod" thread ain't it?

...don't forget cell phones and dogs, too. :)

ShelterLeopard
12-03-2009, 15:01
Why do you think bears need to have arms? Aren't paws good enough?:D

TW

https://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/1184/images/Bear_Handgun_Guns_In_Parks.jpg

Bears are people too! Wait...

toenail
12-03-2009, 15:06
We have had a lot of great section hikes along the AT.I've always said that the people on the trail are the nicest people your never going to see again. However, one night we tent camped next to a shelter , when 3 guys hiked in. Everyone introduced themselves and we made a little fire. The "Three Amigos", pulled out some bottles and started drinking. No problem. After a bit more drinking, they finally told us they were police from florida. Flashed ID and all that. But our night was over when they pulled out there pistols, and told us we did'nt have have to worry about anyone "messin with us tonight". A short time later we retired to the tent. We didnt sleep well that night. This is one of the most dangerous situations that can occur on the trail. I live in Indiana, and have hunted my entire life. But your handgun has no place around a campfire with fellow hikers.

tagg
12-03-2009, 15:08
Can we shoot you on purpose if keep calling people along the trail, "Hillbillies"? :D

TW


I was kind of exaggerating to make a point, but next time I'll refer to them as "unsavory characters who may wish to do me harm" so as not to offend anyone. I also apologize for the use of the word "bear" if that annoyed anyone. I should have said "Ursus Americanus." On second thought, maybe I WILL carry my gun next time in case I run into a Weasel. ;)

Airborne3325
12-03-2009, 15:16
Someimes I carry a gun, sometimes I don't. I hike my own hike and live my own life. The weight does not bother me and is not an issue. I have never felt threatend by any person on the trail, but I doubt Merideth felt threatened either until it was too late. Varying laws are of little concern to me for if I am ever placed in a position to use the gun my life will be more important than any law. When I do carry I keep it covered up so no one may become 'offended'. I don't really care what other people think but I will give them the same respect for their opinions that I expect them give me for mine.

Bad Co
12-03-2009, 15:26
I was trying to think of how to put in in words
Airborne 3325 seems to have read my mind on this issue

toenail
12-03-2009, 15:28
Hey! I dig the bear "GOIN' ROGUE":D

Tuckahoe
12-03-2009, 15:28
And if I may add one more thing -- concealed means concealed

Powell19
12-03-2009, 15:32
http://www.swissminigun.ch/home.html

Now there's absolutely no reason the ultralight backpacker can't pack heat on the trail... except for the fact that it's illegal to import into the USA. So, there's no reason the Canadian, French, Swiss, and perhaps Middle Eastern ultralight backpacker can't pack heat on the trail. Check it!

Bags4266
12-03-2009, 16:21
Someimes I carry a gun, sometimes I don't. I hike my own hike and live my own life. The weight does not bother me and is not an issue. I have never felt threatend by any person on the trail, but I doubt Merideth felt threatened either until it was too late. Varying laws are of little concern to me for if I am ever placed in a position to use the gun my life will be more important than any law. When I do carry I keep it covered up so no one may become 'offended'. I don't really care what other people think but I will give them the same respect for their opinions that I expect them give me for mine.

x2 I have the Ruger LCP and it fits perfectly in my hip belt pouch when I do carry.

A-Train
12-03-2009, 16:33
Someimes I carry a gun, sometimes I don't. I hike my own hike and live my own life. The weight does not bother me and is not an issue. I have never felt threatend by any person on the trail, but I doubt Merideth felt threatened either until it was too late. Varying laws are of little concern to me for if I am ever placed in a position to use the gun my life will be more important than any law. When I do carry I keep it covered up so no one may become 'offended'. I don't really care what other people think but I will give them the same respect for their opinions that I expect them give me for mine.

Agreed. Not to re-hash that tragedy, but I doubt it woulda helped her. I certainly don't think having every day-hiking college student packing heat is a good or safe situation.

If someone wants to kill you, they've got pretty easy opportunities to do so whether you're carrying or not on trail. You gonna bring it with you while you dig a cathole? While you're filtering water? While blowing up your pad? The opportunities are endless. I can't really picture a situation on trail where one would help anyone, but I still respect people's right to carry if it makes them feel better, I just don't get it.

sweetpeastu
12-03-2009, 16:51
I gotta disagree with ya on the dangers of carrying a revolver inside a pack -- it would take an awful lot for somethiing in the top of your pack to shift and actually pull back the hammer or the trigger ona revolver.

Carrying a gun on your hip with a pack...isn't easy, carrying it in the pack seems futile, at least while hiking...but they make other ways to carry a concealed weapon and have it accessable on the outside of your pack....

Mags
12-03-2009, 17:06
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_nrsDdqu1HFg/R4f-9Iquy6I/AAAAAAAAAHM/sUkwZwoHTz8/s400/ist2_2196840_hand_gun.jpg

makoboy
12-03-2009, 17:19
My two cents....

Carrying a gun is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable.

And in respect to Weasel's post: Its not a clip, its a magazine. Unless its a Garand, then its a clip.

The Weasel
12-03-2009, 17:47
I was kind of exaggerating to make a point, but next time I'll refer to them as "unsavory characters who may wish to do me harm" so as not to offend anyone. I also apologize for the use of the word "bear" if that annoyed anyone. I should have said "Ursus Americanus." On second thought, maybe I WILL carry my gun next time in case I run into a Weasel. ;)

Just remember, if you shoot a lawyer, you may have a hard time getting another one to defend you. And no, the jury won't acquit you; judges are lawyers too!

TW

The Weasel
12-03-2009, 17:53
My two cents....

Carrying a gun is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable.

And in respect to Weasel's post: Its not a clip, its a magazine. Unless its a Garand, then its a clip.

I've used clips for revolvers for 50 years. They hold a full set of cartridges so I don't have to load each round separately.

As for what carrying a gun is supposed to be like, great. So be comforted, for 2200 miles. And uncomfortable.

TW

makoboy
12-03-2009, 18:00
I've used clips for revolvers for 50 years. They hold a full set of cartridges so I don't have to load each round separately.

As for what carrying a gun is supposed to be like, great. So be comforted, for 2200 miles. And uncomfortable.

TW


Got me on that one....Garands, and full and half moons for revolvers. But it doesnt sound when you say it.

kanga
12-03-2009, 18:01
I've used clips for revolvers for 50 years. They hold a full set of cartridges so I don't have to load each round separately.

As for what carrying a gun is supposed to be like, great. So be comforted, for 2200 miles. And uncomfortable.

TW

do you remember the thread on the dead spelunker where the definitions of caver vs. spelunker were defined?...


Magazine (firearms)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_%28firearms%29#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_%28firearms%29#searchInput)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/9mm_pistol_magazine.jpg/180px-9mm_pistol_magazine.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:9mm_pistol_magazine.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:9mm_pistol_magazine.jpg)
A staggered-column 9x19mm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x19mm_Parabellum) pistol magazine.


A magazine is an ammunition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammunition) storage and feeding device within or attached to a repeating firearm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm). Magazines may be integral to the firearm (fixed) or removable (detachable). The magazine functions by moving the cartridges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartridge_%28weaponry%29) stored in the magazine into a position where they may be loaded into the chamber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber_%28firearms%29) by the action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_action) of the firearm. The detachable magazine is often referred to as a clip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_%28ammunition%29); such usage is frowned upon by many authorities on firearms but is nonetheless commonplace.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_%28firearms%29#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_%28firearms%29#cite_note-thegunzone-1)






don't you make your living off of semantics?

Surplusman
12-03-2009, 18:41
As I posted on WhiteBlaze before, I have been around and handled firearms all of my life and am comfortable with them. BUT, I see no need to carry one myself the AT. Some people feel safer with them, and I understand that.

But if you do feel the need to pack a barking iron on the trail, do yourself and everyone else a favor and keep it out of sight and shut up about it. Nothing worse (and dangerous) than an idiot waving one around and bragging about it.

tagg
12-03-2009, 18:50
Just remember, if you shoot a lawyer, you may have a hard time getting another one to defend you. And no, the jury won't acquit you; judges are lawyers too!

TW


I'm such a horrible shot, you wouldn't have anything to worry about. I'd have a better chance of hitting you if I just threw the bullet...another reason why I'm probably better off leaving the weight at home.

randyg45
12-03-2009, 19:47
Whatever one's feelings about guns, the following sums up most of the practicalities:

1) If by "gun" one includes long guns and shotguns, they are far too heavy and will terrify most other people along the trail, especially out of hunting season.

2) Handguns usually can't be carried easily in belt holsters by backpackers, and so must be carried inside a pack or, perhaps, in chest or thigh holsters, both of which make backpacking much harder. That makes "external carries" impractical for long hiking trips, but it also makes them inaccessible in the event they are needed while walking.

3) Revolvers in packs are dangerous if loaded, since shifting gear can cause an accidental firing, unless a trigger lock is in place, which makes immediate use even more difficult.

4) Automatics tend to be heavier than revolvers, but can be finicky in the presence of outside contaminants, e.g. pack crud. So they need to be in a case/holster/bag to protect them, including from water when it rains and your pack lets some water in. This also makes them harder to use quickly.

5) Most modern automatic pistols will weigh about 1.5 pounds unloaded. A full clip will add about another pound, and holstering/cases will add about 1 more. That means that the weight for a pistol will be about 3-4 pounds, or roughly 10% of packweight. That's a very major addition.

6) Clips will hold from 8 (plus one in the snout) to 30-odd rounds. If you need more ammunition for any reason, you cannot mail it, and resupply is much harder that for other resupply items.

7) Carrying a firearm into some restaurants, stores hostels (particularly those operated by churches), libraries, and government buildings may be a criminal offense. This includes United States Post Offices (and other federal buildings) even if a valid CCW permit is held. Similar laws may apply to state and local government buildings. This can mean that it is necessary to leave a weapon with your pack or elsewhere, which can also be a violation of state laws (leaving a weapon in an unsafe location accessible to others) and is dangerous in any event, leaving aside the risk of loss.

8) Handguns tend to be expensive, with prices for automatics ranging from a few hundred dollars into the thousands. This makes a handgun a very expensive part of your gear.

These are simply practicalities: Carrying a gun for a thru hike is very, very difficult.

Weasel, even as person who carries I agree with almost all of your post.

I disagree with (2), though. There are several excellent ways to carry on a pack belt; most require some minor modifications to the belt, holster, or both. (3) seems to ignore single-action revolvers. You also ignore simply carrying a gun in your pocket.
My answer to some of the challenges you outline above starts here: http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:W3-1mvq0bwMJ:www.naaminis.com/bwmm.html+naa+widow&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us .
Weight loaded is less than 10 ounces. The "firing pin" is actually a blade-like protrusion extending from the hammer; when rigged for carry this blade fits into product-unique slots milled into the cylinder between each chamber. This means both that the gun can be not just dropped without risk of misfire but actually mounted in a vise and beaten repeatedly with a sledge hammer without risk of firing. Being functionally %100 stainless steel, rust is not an issue......

Bags4266
12-03-2009, 19:54
My two cents....

Carrying a gun is supposed to be comforting, not comfortable.

And in respect to Weasel's post: Its not a clip, its a magazine. Unless its a Garand, then its a clip.

Very good! the old M-1... Many people still refer it (a mag) to a clip though. I cringe when I hear it. But I don't correct them cause too many people call a mag that.

randyg45
12-03-2009, 19:58
Hello again ShLep.
"And it is hard to distinguish between who is or isn't responsible. So on the whole, I'm more comfortable when people don't carry guns."

You're absolutely right. In addition, one of the things I tried to teach my students is the importance I attatch to the idea that a concealed weapon should be exactly that. No one except your spouse (or such) should be aware you even know what a gun is, much less that you carry one. My belief is that it should be "hard to distinguish between who is or not" carrying in the first place.
The only way you would know I'm carrying is to reach in my pocket.
Your advice about not backing down? I think you rock...

randyg45
12-03-2009, 20:02
Someimes I carry a gun, sometimes I don't. I hike my own hike and live my own life. The weight does not bother me and is not an issue. I have never felt threatend by any person on the trail, but I doubt Merideth felt threatened either until it was too late. Varying laws are of little concern to me for if I am ever placed in a position to use the gun my life will be more important than any law. When I do carry I keep it covered up so no one may become 'offended'. I don't really care what other people think but I will give them the same respect for their opinions that I expect them give me for mine.
When did you get your wings? I was in the first class to jump at Benning in '72....
If I wasn't almost 20 years sober I'd have said "I'll drink to that" when I read your post.

DylonHike
12-03-2009, 20:55
ill be strapped with a .45
better safe than sorry ;)

Montana AT05
12-03-2009, 21:07
A lot of folks carry out here in Montana. See it on the trail all the time, rifles included. It's not a problem.

And if you carry the right handgun, a bear won't be shoving it up yer arse. But that was a funny joke!

As for "terrifying" people by carrying a rifle? Oh my, haven't we become the metro-sexual pansy country of all times. /facepalm

I'm more afraid of people hauling Sierra club literature than a man packin' heat. And if I have a choice of camp sites, one populated by guys with guns and the other with white guys sporting dreadlocks...well, pass the ammo boys!

kanga
12-03-2009, 21:09
A lot of folks carry out here in Montana. See it on the trail all the time, rifles included. It's not a problem.

And if you carry the right handgun, a bear won't be shoving it up yer arse. But that was a funny joke!

As for "terrifying" people by carrying a rifle? Oh my, haven't we become the metro-sexual pansy country of all times. /facepalm

I'm more afraid of people hauling Sierra club literature than a man packin' heat. And if I have a choice of camp sites, one populated by guys with guns and the other with white guys sporting dreadlocks...well, pass the ammo boys!
i think i love you.

Montana AT05
12-03-2009, 21:10
i think i love you.

You're a kangaroo packin' heat wearing a bandana.

<looks up>

Thank you Lord. My life's desires in one package.

Heh.

Lone Wolf
12-03-2009, 21:27
i think i love you.


You're a kangaroo packin' heat wearing a bandana.

<looks up>

Thank you Lord. My life's desires in one package.

Heh.

i love you both :D

kanga
12-03-2009, 21:38
i love you too poot!

Pony
12-03-2009, 21:55
I don't get it. I have no problem with guns, I grew up around them, have fired them on countless occasions. But, I have never been in a situation where I felt that I needed a gun, especially when hiking. So, why do people feel that they need a gun on the trail? Is it paranoia or just some macho thing?

Montana AT05
12-03-2009, 21:57
I don't get it. I have no problem with guns, I grew up around them, have fired them on countless occasions. But, I have never been in a situation where I felt that I needed a gun, especially when hiking. So, why do people feel that they need a gun on the trail? Is it paranoia or just some macho thing?

So, because you need, want, or do a thing, those who must be paranoid or have masculinity issues? Maybe they just think differently than you do, and if you really did grow up around guns, you would understand that.

I personally don't carry one while hiking, nor do I carry bear spray. But I don't need to ridicule those who do. No. I am too nice for that.

I save my ridicule for golfers!

Bearpaw
12-03-2009, 22:04
I save my ridicule for golfers!

Uh-oh! Lone Wolf no longer love you! :eek:

Montana AT05
12-03-2009, 22:10
Uh-oh! Lone Wolf no longer love you! :eek:

True love never lasts in my case, I always say too much.

Lone wolf, I shall always cherish our memories together, but it was either me or Golfing.

The Weasel
12-03-2009, 22:28
The detachable magazine is often referred to as a clip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clip_%28ammunition%29); such usage is frowned upon by many authorities on firearms but is nonetheless commonplace.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_%28firearms%29#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magazine_%28firearms%29#cite_note-thegunzone-1)

don't you make your living off of semantics?

No, I don't.

TW

Pony
12-03-2009, 22:32
So, because you need, want, or do a thing, those who must be paranoid or have masculinity issues? Maybe they just think differently than you do, and if you really did grow up around guns, you would understand that.

I personally don't carry one while hiking, nor do I carry bear spray. But I don't need to ridicule those who do. No. I am too nice for that.

I save my ridicule for golfers!

Not really trying to ridicule, just trying to understand. And I'm not saying that if someone is carrying a gun I would even have a problem with that, I just don't understand why you would need one.

As far as growing up around guns, they were always at home, but they were used for hunting animals.

I just think that if I am going somewhere that I feel I would need a gun, then I probably wouldn't go.

So, why would you need a gun on the AT?

Bags4266
12-03-2009, 22:33
I don't get it. I have no problem with guns, I grew up around them, have fired them on countless occasions. But, I have never been in a situation where I felt that I needed a gun, especially when hiking. So, why do people feel that they need a gun on the trail? Is it paranoia or just some macho thing?


Really, does it matter! Some like to, some are opposed. I couldn't care less!

The Weasel
12-03-2009, 22:39
While I agree that a holster can be made to fit a pack belt, or perhaps vice versa, my comment was that it was not "easily" carryable, and the response establishes that. And any firearms safety instructor is likely to agree with me about the risk of carrying a LOADED revolver in a pack, loose, without a trigger guard. I'm sorry for the value judgment, but that's somewhere due south of plumb stupid. Frankly, I doubt there will be many pros who will endorse carrying a loaded automatic in a pack, either, even if there isn't one round in the chamber (which, of course, if you're carrying so you can get quick access in case of need, you'll probably want to have 'one up the snout.'

So all in all, we're talking about a fairly huge amount of discomfort, risk (if in a pack, loaded), and social issues, especially along the AT. The question from the OP wasn't "is it OK to carry a gun when I hike" but about having one for a thru-hike, i.e. 2200 miles for 7 months. While I see guns often here in the west, including along trails, I really doubt there are many carried by thrus along either the CDT or the PCT or similar trails.

And before all you NRA Lifetimers get all hissy about this, I was using Hoppe's to clean pistols, rifles and shotguns back when Ike was still a first-termer. The best self-defense tools along the AT are stomachs and feet: If you think you're in a bad situation, trust your gut and run.

TW

gunner76
12-03-2009, 22:43
I don't feel the need to carry a handgun while hiking, but to each his own as long as they know how to carry and operate it safely.

Where I work we use to have an old man who always made a big deal about leaving his handgun in his truck while the truck was being worked on. I always told him no one would mess with gun. Eash time he came to pick up the truck he always made a big issue about not wanting anyone to mess with his hand gun. Finally I got tired of his rants and when he came in to big up his truck and asked if anyone messed with his gun I told him I shot off a few rounds and it shot low and to the left. He went nuts. I told him no messed with his gun and if he was that worried about it he should take it with him and not leave it in the truck.

Pony
12-03-2009, 22:45
Really, does it matter! Some like to, some are opposed. I couldn't care less!

It apparently does matter, since this topic comes up time and time again. I don't really care either, but am curious as to why someone would feel that they need to carry a gun.

Daydream Believer
12-03-2009, 22:58
Hey, just wanted to thank all of you for voting and posting your comments. I also thank you for keeping it friendly. The horse people on their forum did not do as well which confirms my belief that the nicest people I've ever met are AT hikers. :-)

So far the results are interesting...almost 40/60 on women whereas only 26% of men voting carry a gun. I wonder how many women on this forum are really reflective of the numbers folks on the trail? I remember that on just our two days on the trail in Oct, we met several couples and one lone woman hiker...a serious section hiker, a dad with a family of kids, a youth group, and a troop of boy scouts. It would seem the more serious folks, both thru and section hikers, hang out on this forum.

Any thoughts on the demographics?

The Weasel
12-03-2009, 23:00
The demographics here bear no resemblance to those on the trail.

TW

Bearpaw
12-03-2009, 23:47
The demographics here bear no resemblance to those on the trail.

TW

Based on what?

Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but there's not much of a way to say one way or another.

randyg45
12-04-2009, 08:49
And any firearms safety instructor is likely to agree with me about the risk of carrying a LOADED revolver in a pack, loose, without a trigger guard. I'm sorry for the value judgment, but that's somewhere due south of plumb stupid.

The best self-defense tools along the AT are stomachs and feet: If you think you're in a bad situation, trust your gut and run.

TW
Regarding the first pearl, above: you might acquire some specific knowledge about the specific firearm discussed before calling someone who actually knows what he's talking about stupid.

Regarding the second pearl, I would completely expect you to believe that your best course of action, when threatened, is to run. I strongly, in your case, suspect that you are correct.

randyg45
12-04-2009, 08:54
It apparently does matter, since this topic comes up time and time again. I don't really care either, but am curious as to why someone would feel that they need to carry a gun.

Do you have car insurance? Health insurance? Life insurance?
Are you curious about why those who do "feel they need to"?
You don't need a gun until, and unless, you do. Just exactly like any other form of insurance.

Lone Wolf
12-04-2009, 08:57
20 of 83 polled carry. cool!

EMAN
12-04-2009, 09:52
3) Revolvers in packs are dangerous if loaded, since shifting gear can cause an accidental firing, unless a trigger lock is in place, which makes immediate use even more difficult.

What are you packing that goes off accidentally due to shifting loads anyway. I've carried revolvers in much worse situations than backpacking and I have never ever had one go off accidentally. Maybe more imortantly for this website, just how is one packing their stuff that causes shifting loads anyway?


4) Automatics tend to be heavier than revolvers, but can be finicky in the presence of outside contaminants, e.g. pack crud. So they need to be in a case/holster/bag to protect them, including from water when it rains and your pack lets some water in. This also makes them harder to use quickly.

Automatics?? Sub pole here: how many people here actually own an "automatic" handgun? where did you buy it? How much was the extra (PC) FFL to own it?

6) Clips will hold from 8 (plus one in the snout) to 30-odd rounds. If you need more ammunition for any reason, you cannot mail it, and resupply is much harder that for other resupply items.

In true firearm ownership (NOT the urban dictionary definition), it's a "magazine". As an added feature with this term, you get the strength of the word "magazine". Sounds like yo got more ammo than someone with a "clip".

7) Carrying a firearm into some restaurants, stores hostels (particularly those operated by churches), libraries, and government buildings may be a criminal offense. This includes United States Post Offices (and other federal buildings) even if a valid CCW permit is held. Similar laws may apply to state and local government buildings. This can mean that it is necessary to leave a weapon with your pack or elsewhere, which can also be a violation of state laws (leaving a weapon in an unsafe location accessible to others) and is dangerous in any event, leaving aside the risk of loss.

Thank goodness we've disarmed the law abiding public. Now if we could rid the world of knives, ball bats, flammables, automobiles, hammers, chain saws, rope, criminals....whoops...sorry....

FYI-
I do appreciate the efforts to inform here though and I do agree with the general "it ain't that great an idea" thing.....

WalkingStick75
12-04-2009, 09:52
IMO I think the poll should also include

I am a man/woman, I have a CPL bud do not carry on the AT

LimpsAlong
12-04-2009, 09:58
Well, there are quite a few posts here that are from misinformed people. Unfortunately when discussing a polarizing topic like this lots of folks bring their "feelings" into the mix and do a disservice to someone who has an honest question. I'm talking about the non-gunners AND the gunners.
I'll be up front and let you know I have "carried" for the past 33 years semi-regular. I got my first gun when I was in the second grade and have been shooting since. I've renewed my concealed carry permit 3 times.
In 33 years I have had to display my weapon 1 time. It was in defense of my family and the mere display of the weapon defused the situation.
OK, with that out of the way I'll start.
Drop the concern about an accidental discharge in the pack. If you don't have the weapon readily accessable why are you carrying it?
Lots of hip belt pouches do an excellent job of securing and carrying your weapon.
99% of the gun carriers/owners I know are responsible individuals. Drop the concern about "crazy" gun toters on the trail.

I love my family and plan on spending as much time as God gives me with them. That means assuming my role as their protector. It also means doing all I can to ensure I return home to them when I venture afield.
Ways of doing those two things is to make sure I can deal with any situation thrown my way. That includes having smoke detectors in my home, having a plan for the family in the event of natural disaster, having health insurance and having the means to deal with evil people in this world who have a total disregard for me and my family.
There are no extra "lives" in real life. There are no "health" bonuses. There are no mulligans.
I suggest you read extensively on the subject of self defense both pro and con, reflect on your priorities in this life and then make a decision on how to responsibly act on your conclusions.
Hope this helps.

LimpsAlong
12-04-2009, 10:10
And any firearms safety instructor is likely to agree with me about the risk of carrying a LOADED revolver in a pack, loose, without a trigger guard. Frankly, I doubt there will be many pros who will endorse carrying a loaded automatic in a pack, either, even if there isn't one round in the chamber (which, of course, if you're carrying so you can get quick access in case of need, you'll probably want to have 'one up the snout.'
And before all you NRA Lifetimers get all hissy about this, I was using Hoppe's to clean pistols, rifles and shotguns back when Ike was still a first-termer. The best self-defense tools along the AT are stomachs and feet: If you think you're in a bad situation, trust your gut and run.

I'll address your points in order.
without a trigger guard-I think almost all modern revolvers have a trigger guard. (I'm sure you mistyped)
I doubt there will be many pros who will endorse carrying a loaded automatic in a pack, I'd put a condition 1 1911 in a washing machine and not worry about it going off.
If you think you're in a bad situation, trust your gut and run
Can you run 1000 FPS? If not you are liable to get a hole in your back.

Daydream Believer
12-04-2009, 10:15
IMO I think the poll should also include

I am a man/woman, I have a CPL bud do not carry on the AT

I only had four options on the poll.

LimpsAlong
12-04-2009, 10:17
Regarding the second pearl, I would completely expect you to believe that your best course of action, when threatened, is to run. I strongly, in your case, suspect that you are correct.

Yuk, Yuk
I got it after the second reading.

dgaf169
12-04-2009, 12:21
I dont see any reason that you would need a gun of any type on the AT. However if you do decide to carry one you must remeber that each state, as well as national and state parks, have different law reguarding firearms. You will need permits in some places and in others where firearms have been completely banned you will have to put the gun in your pack. With that being said by the time you dig the gun out of you pack it would be kind of useless. But like i said earlier there really isnt a need for them. Hikers on the AT look out for one another. I have spent a lot and i mean A LOT of time on the AT, and althought i have ran into some rather "interesting" people i have never seen anyone that I would consider a threat. Hope this helps, just my 2 cents...

dgaf169
12-04-2009, 12:24
PS- "I did some research and there have been like 9 murders through 2008 on the AT" As stated in the book "A Walk in the Woods" if you were to draw a 2,200 mile long line through any part of the United States you are bound to run into at least, if not more, that many murders. Just soomething to think about!

kanga
12-04-2009, 12:26
6) Clips will hold from 8 (plus one in the snout) to 30-odd rounds. If you need more ammunition for any reason, you cannot mail it, and resupply is much harder that for other resupply items.

as i not so politely informed a dumbarse whose property backs up to mine when he unloaded his rifle in the direction of my house in the attempt to kill a rabid skunk (or so he says), if you can't hit something after 8 tries, you do not need to be holding a gun, much less firing it, and therefore do not need to resupply. in fact, somebody should take the gun away from you and beat you with it...

slugger
12-04-2009, 12:30
as i not so politely informed a dumbarse whose property backs up to mine when he unloaded his rifle in the direction of my house in the attempt to kill a rabid skunk (or so he says), if you can't hit something after 8 tries, you do not need to be holding a gun, much less firing it, and therefore do not need to resupply. in fact, somebody should take the gun away from you and beat you with it...

We had a cop in my town take 5 shots with his Glock at point blank range to kill a deer that was hit by a car....Not even joking.... The next time it happened they called in for a buck shot...

I can't think of a better reason to carry my own gun in my town, but I don't see a reason to carry on the trail. HYOH though! :)

LimpsAlong
12-04-2009, 12:32
I dont see any reason that you would need a gun of any type on the AT. But like i said earlier there really isnt a need for them. Hikers on the AT look out for one another. I have spent a lot and i mean A LOT of time on the AT, Hope this helps, just my 2 cents...

21 years on this earth....hmmmm....OK. Not a real extensive backlog of experiences to draw on concerning life or death decisions.

kanga
12-04-2009, 12:32
We had a cop in my town take 5 shots with his Glock at point blank range to kill a deer that was hit by a car....Not even joking.... The next time it happened they called in for a buck shot...

that is really really sad. and more than a little scary.

Lone Wolf
12-04-2009, 12:56
I have spent a lot and i mean A LOT of time on the AT, and althought i have ran into some rather "interesting" people i have never seen anyone that I would consider a threat. Hope this helps, just my 2 cents...

i have spent a LOT and i mean a LOT of time on the AT too, more than you and i don't see the need for water filters or bear spray. most do. nobody's business if one wants to carry a firearm

ShelterLeopard
12-04-2009, 13:47
21 years on this earth....hmmmm....OK. Not a real extensive backlog of experiences to draw on concerning life or death decisions.

Just because someone isn't 50 doesn't mean we don't have an opinion, and doesn't mean that we don't know things. The "you're younger so clearly you don't know much and I'm not taking you seriously" thing REALLY irritates me.

It isn't age, it is experience hiking. I know that there are plenty of much older people who've hiked less than I have and all. Just because someone is younger doesn't mean that they're stupid or their opinion should be kicked aside like that.

I'm offended.

Tuckahoe
12-04-2009, 14:11
Gee Wiz! you know Shlep, forgive me but I have to say this...

There is a latin phrase written in my forge -- "iventus stultorum magister" which is basically "youth is the teacher of fools."

When I was 19 I thought I was the smartest person in the world, and I certainly had a lot of book smarts. But, after I turned 30 I also realized how stupid I was at 19. At that age I lacked any real true life experience; something all kids at that age lack. And this is the rub with kids, and that is they really dont know how dumb they are. And for anyone to think that at 19 or 21 they have enough of a life experience to me just really shows what lack of experience they really have.

ShelterLeopard
12-04-2009, 14:17
Look, I didn't say that I'm very wise or know more than someone else, but to dismiss someone's opinion just like that because of their age is rude. Just because we haven't had as much "life experience" as people older than us, does not automatically mean that we're wrong.

LimpsAlong
12-04-2009, 14:17
Just because someone isn't 50 doesn't mean we don't have an opinion, and doesn't mean that we don't know things. The "you're younger so clearly you don't know much and I'm not taking you seriously" thing REALLY irritates me.

It isn't age, it is experience hiking. I know that there are plenty of much older people who've hiked less than I have and all. Just because someone is younger doesn't mean that they're stupid or their opinion should be kicked aside like that.

I'm offended.

Don't really care if you are offended......or irritated. We are talking serious business here. Take your "offense" and "irritation" somewhere where it does not involve someones well-being or life.
BTW,I would like to know where I called anyone stupid. I stated fact," not many years of experience to draw on", like it or not it's fact.

dgaf169
12-04-2009, 15:22
Limpsalong, I respect your opinion in saying that I do not have many life experience but I feel you should know that I have been and avid outdoorsman since I was in the first grade. For the past 7 years I have been lucky enough to spend between 60 and 90 days afield a year. Due to my close proximity to the AT I would have to say about half of those days are spent on the AT. I am by no means saying this makes me an expert but I due believe it does at the very least validate my point that I stated in an earlier post. I am an avid hunter and gunowner as well as a firm believer in the 2nd amendment. I'm not telling people that they should or shouldn't carry guns on the AT. What I stated was "that in MY OPINION they are not needed." I will add to that that all of my experience on the AT has been in VA, WV, MD, and PA. If there is indeed a need for a firearm on other parts of the trail, I would like to know about it.
Thanks!!

toenail
12-04-2009, 15:31
DING.......round two!

Miner
12-04-2009, 15:34
I'm a member of the NRA and have 2 handguns, 2 shotguns, and 5 rifles. But just thinking about carrying my Glock with a full magazine just makes my back hurt. I just can't imagine backpacking with something that heavy that I'll likely never need to use. I suggest you try some experimental backpacking trips with your AT gear with some deadweight equal to the weight of any gun+ammo you want to bring to see how you like carrying that much weight. I recommend using water bottles for this weight since you can empty it after you come to your senses. I don't have a problem with you packing, but guns are heavy. Come to you senses already; a backpacking trip is more comfortable with the less weight you carry.

If you feel the need for protection on the trail, why not get one of these instead: http://www.luxurylite.com/ssindex.html They are pretty light for what it is and dual use. When you feel threatened, you just pull the pole appart and you have a spear or a knife at the ready.

LimpsAlong
12-04-2009, 16:06
[quote=dgaf169;928866] What I stated was "that in MY OPINION they are not needed." quote]

dgaf169, I based my reply on this statement....
"I dont see any reason that you would need a gun of any type on the AT".
I did not read"in my opinion". If that was your intent, my apologies. Sorry I was a little crass in my response. You sound like a level headed young man with more outdoor experience than most your age.
I still stand by my statement that once you get a few miles on you and realize (or meet) some of the kind of people that creep around out there you might change your thoughts.

kanga
12-04-2009, 17:29
Don't really care if you are offended......or irritated. We are talking serious business here. Take your "offense" and "irritation" somewhere where it does not involve someones well-being or life.
BTW,I would like to know where I called anyone stupid. I stated fact," not many years of experience to draw on", like it or not it's fact.
you really should care. she can have an opinion on serious business if she wants to. her opinion may be right, it may be wrong, but she's damn well allowed to have it. that's the beauty of life and what makes being in america great. my opinion is that your post was extremely harsh and unnecessary. I want to hear her opinion so shut up so i can hear it. see i can be rude too. have a nice day.:sun

The Weasel
12-04-2009, 17:35
I'll address your points in order.
without a trigger guard-I think almost all modern revolvers have a trigger guard. (I'm sure you mistyped)
I doubt there will be many pros who will endorse carrying a loaded automatic in a pack, I'd put a condition 1 1911 in a washing machine and not worry about it going off.
If you think you're in a bad situation, trust your gut and run
Can you run 1000 FPS? If not you are liable to get a hole in your back.

Limps:

First, thanks for the correction. I obvously meant a trigger lock. It was late. Thanks.

Second, if your 1911 is like all the rest of the model, as well as pretty much every other automatic, if you chamber a round into the barrel - which makes it "loaded" - then the trigger is active and the only thing keeping it from firing is trigger pressure. In a pack with "poky" things moving around as one walks, that's an invitation for disaster. Especially if, at the moment of the misfire, barrel is pointing at your own back or neck.

Third, of the few actual attacks that occur along the AT or the PCT, only a miniscule number involve the attacker being armed with a firearm. And in most situations, people will recognize that there is something "that doesn't feel right" well in advance. Advice has been given here - correctly - for years that "If you don't feel good about who is at a shelter, or a site, or that you're talking too, trust your gut and move on." That's good advice, better than carrying a gun. So is walking and running away.

I like guns, and have used them, I suspect, even longer than you, for enjoyment as well as protection. But packing one for a thru hike is, simply put, impractical, for the reasons I indicated above, as well as those which others have listed here in an environment that is far safer than most suburban neighborhoods where one walks in the afternoon.

TW

TD55
12-04-2009, 17:35
Limpsalong, I respect your opinion in saying that I do not have many life experience but I feel you should know that I have been and avid outdoorsman since I was in the first grade. For the past 7 years I have been lucky enough to spend between 60 and 90 days afield a year. Due to my close proximity to the AT I would have to say about half of those days are spent on the AT. I am by no means saying this makes me an expert but I due believe it does at the very least validate my point that I stated in an earlier post. I am an avid hunter and gunowner as well as a firm believer in the 2nd amendment. I'm not telling people that they should or shouldn't carry guns on the AT. What I stated was "that in MY OPINION they are not needed." I will add to that that all of my experience on the AT has been in VA, WV, MD, and PA. If there is indeed a need for a firearm on other parts of the trail, I would like to know about it.
Thanks!!

You still don't get it.

The Weasel
12-04-2009, 17:44
you really should care. she can have an opinion on serious business if she wants to. her opinion may be right, it may be wrong, but she's damn well allowed to have it. that's the beauty of life and what makes being in america great. my opinion is that your post was extremely harsh and unnecessary. I want to hear her opinion so shut up so i can hear it. see i can be rude too. have a nice day.:sun

The Weasel agrees with Kanga.

Jesus, it is said, taught his elders in the Temple, when he left Mom and Pop on the ride left home. The Dalai Lama was enthroned at 15, and 'thru hiked' to India one step ahead of the Red Chinese a year later, and has been 'teaching' ever since. (I realize, though, that he may actually be considered to have thousands of years of "experience" due to reincarnation. Still, he was just 16.

SL has the right here to (1) have opinions, (2) express them, and (3) be wrong about them or (4) sometimes right. I enjoy them and hope she won't stop. Especially there is any chance she is either the Messiah or the future 15th Dalai Lama. Even if not, I hope she keeps on with them.

TW

slugger
12-04-2009, 17:49
Limps:
Second, if your 1911 is like all the rest of the model, as well as pretty much every other automatic, if you chamber a round into the barrel - which makes it "loaded" - then the trigger is active and the only thing keeping it from firing is trigger pressure. In a pack with "poky" things moving around as one walks, that's an invitation for disaster. Especially if, at the moment of the misfire, barrel is pointing at your own back or neck.


A 1911 is single action so you need to pull the hammer back before you can fire even if you have one chambered. Also the 1911 has a half cock where you can have the hammer locked in the middle so it cant be fired. There is a normal thumb safety to keep the gun from firing. Also the 1911 has the back grip safety that has to also be depress before firing.

I'm not trying to say it's not possible but for a 1911 it is not as likely as say a glock. :sun

Maddog
12-04-2009, 18:16
"Especially there is any chance she is either the Messiah or the future 15th Dalai Lama." LMAO! nope!

LimpsAlong
12-04-2009, 18:49
Limps:
I like guns, and have used them, I suspect, even longer than you, for enjoyment as well as protection.
TW
You MAY have used them longer but anyone who spends any amount of time around firearms and others who own firearms know well the mechanical safeties found on the 1911.
Slugger named almost all the safeties on a 1911. (barrel link)
I stand by the "washing machine" scenario.
Long ago I saw a range master chamber a round and throw the 1911 like a bowling ball down the firing line. That demonstration, plus carrying one for the last 21 years, has made a believer out of me about the mechanical safety of the 1911.

LimpsAlong
12-04-2009, 18:52
you really should care. she can have an opinion on serious business if she wants to. her opinion may be right, it may be wrong, but she's damn well allowed to have it. that's the beauty of life and what makes being in america great. my opinion is that your post was extremely harsh and unnecessary. I want to hear her opinion so shut up so i can hear it. see i can be rude too. have a nice day.:sun

She did not have an opinion on "serious business". She had an opinion on a post I made to another. It had nothing to do with the topic. Come to think of it, neither does yours.
YOU have a nice day too! :)

ShelterLeopard
12-04-2009, 18:55
you really should care. she can have an opinion on serious business if she wants to. her opinion may be right, it may be wrong, but she's damn well allowed to have it. that's the beauty of life and what makes being in america great. my opinion is that your post was extremely harsh and unnecessary. I want to hear her opinion so shut up so i can hear it. see i can be rude too. have a nice day.:sun

Thanks very much Kanga.

kanga
12-04-2009, 18:57
She did not have an opinion on "serious business". She had an opinion on a post I made to another. It had nothing to do with the topic. Come to think of it, neither does yours.
YOU have a nice day too! :)
okay, from now on we will both only have opinions on things you deem worthy. thank you for your input.

kanga
12-04-2009, 18:58
Thanks very much Kanga.
welcome, girlfriend

LimpsAlong
12-04-2009, 19:15
okay, from now on we will both only have opinions on things you deem worthy. thank you for your input.

Finally !! Thats all I've been asking for.

toenail
12-04-2009, 19:51
DING..........round three!

mudhead
12-04-2009, 19:57
So where's the eye candy carrying the round card?

kanga
12-04-2009, 20:02
So where's the eye candy carrying the round card?
i can't be in both places at once.

randyg45
12-04-2009, 20:30
Limps:

First, thanks for the correction. I obvously meant a trigger lock. It was late. Thanks.

Second, if your 1911 is like all the rest of the model, as well as pretty much every other automatic, if you chamber a round into the barrel - which makes it "loaded" - then the trigger is active and the only thing keeping it from firing is trigger pressure. In a pack with "poky" things moving around as one walks, that's an invitation for disaster. Especially if, at the moment of the misfire, barrel is pointing at your own back or neck.

TW

First, if memory serves correct you were referencing the firearm I linked to. It neither has nor needs a trigger a guard; so I'm pretty sure thats what you meant. It's a pretty unigue piece...

Second, it's hard to imagine how you could be more wrong about the 1911 and many other semi-autos (the Browining Hi-Power, my fave 9mm, comes instantly to mind).

Third- you've evidently done a lot of research on gun law; and really done us all a favor doing so. I only wish you would do the same kind of research concerning individual gun models and their safety features.

dgaf169
12-04-2009, 20:41
TD55 exactly what is it that I "don't get?"

TD55
12-04-2009, 21:25
TD55 exactly what is it that I "don't get?"

There is no wrong or right on this topic. Whether to carry a weapon on the trail is a personal decision. Once a person considers the negatives and positives it is up to them to decide.

jody
12-04-2009, 23:17
The problem with alot of you people on here is you heap all pro-gun advocates into one pile! I was born and raised in the north but live in the south as have all my generations before me and the term "hillbilly" is used tooo loosely!! We are not allll a bunch of ignorant morons who do not know how to handle a weapon, or if we do, are not a bunch of trigger happy imbeciles! My husband has a concealed carry permit and you would never know if he was carrying or not, but you would be damn glad to be in his presence if someone were threatening you! Also the whole point of carrying is to be prepared IF or WHEN it might happen! There is too much evil going on in the world to put on rose-colored glasses and believe nothing will ever happen to you, but to be prepared for it if it does!! Also to put a gun in your backpack instead of on your person where it can be easily accessed is shear stupidity......Whoever said Meredith would not have benefited from having a weapon is wrong and I bet her family would disagree with you also. It would have gave her a fighting chance, if she knew how to handle a weapon.....

DylonHike
12-04-2009, 23:42
When i thru hike the AT in the next year i will be planning on having a .45 handgun with me. I shoot occasionally with my dad in the mountains (he has his concealed permit) and i know how to use one and clean one.

Its not that i feel i will need to use one but if if there is a slight chance that the opportunity will present itself then i feel like i should carry. you never know what will happen so its better to be prepared.

And if i somehow stumble off the trail or get hurt and need to find food, well i can always shoot something :D

ShelterLeopard
12-04-2009, 23:44
There is no wrong or right on this topic. Whether to carry a weapon on the trail is a personal decision. Once a person considers the negatives and positives it is up to them to decide.

Um, actually, that's pretty close to eaxactly what dgaf169 said.

Tuckahoe
12-05-2009, 00:17
When i thru hike the AT in the next year i will be planning on having a .45 handgun with me. I shoot occasionally with my dad in the mountains (he has his concealed permit) and i know how to use one and clean one.

Its not that i feel i will need to use one but if if there is a slight chance that the opportunity will present itself then i feel like i should carry. you never know what will happen so its better to be prepared.

And if i somehow stumble off the trail or get hurt and need to find food, well i can always shoot something :D

I certainly believe that folks should be able to defend themselves and have every right to carry. But I also caution to follow and understand the law.

Dylon, please understand that caution. First off, keep in mind that most states require a CCP holder to be 21. Are you intending to wait to thru until you turn 21?

If you have a North Carolina CCP do you know what states along the AT have reciprocity with NC? Those states happen to be Georgia, Tennessee, Virginia and Pennsylvania, New Hampshire. There is no reciprocity with West Virginia (which surprised me). Additionally, when it comes to Maryland, or better yet New York you are SCREWED, Hell better add Mass to that as well. Vermont, when it comes to firearms requires no permits whatsoever.

Are you willing to risk it in those freedom lacking states should you be cought with a concealed firearm? New York will throw the book at you. You really cant bounce a handgun to yourself. Without an FFL you cant mail it through USPS. While you can send it overnight by Fedex or UPS to yourself the stores wont touch it (they really arent Fedex or UPS), and you would have to ship it from a hub. How many hubs are near the trail? Plus who would sign for it for you -- who would you trust?

Lot to consider.

DylonHike
12-05-2009, 00:30
I certainly believe that folks should be able to defend themselves and have every right to carry. But I also caution to follow and understand the law.

Dylon, please understand that caution. First off, keep in mind that most states require a CCP holder to be 21. Are you intending to wait to thru until you turn 21?

If you have a North Carolina CCP do you know what states along the AT have reciprocity with NC? Those states happen to be Georgia, Tennessee, Virginia and Pennsylvania, New Hampshire. There is no reciprocity with West Virginia (which surprised me). Additionally, when it comes to Maryland, or better yet New York you are SCREWED, Hell better add Mass to that as well. Vermont, when it comes to firearms requires no permits whatsoever.

Are you willing to risk it in those freedom lacking states should you be cought with a concealed firearm? New York will throw the book at you. You really cant bounce a handgun to yourself. Without an FFL you cant mail it through USPS. While you can send it overnight by Fedex or UPS to yourself the stores wont touch it (they really arent Fedex or UPS), and you would have to ship it from a hub. How many hubs are near the trail? Plus who would sign for it for you -- who would you trust?

Lot to consider.

Im waiting till im 21 and finnish my associates degree before i hike the AT, i know the law and wont break it or try to get around it. Ill try to get my concealed carry when i go.

If i do go before im 21 ill only be carrying a knife :)

take-a-knee
12-05-2009, 00:41
the Problem With Alot Of You People On Here Is You Heap All Pro-gun Advocates Into One Pile! I Was Born And Raised In The North But Live In The South As Have All My Generations Before Me And The Term "hillbilly" Is Used Tooo Loosely!! We Are Not Allll A Bunch Of Ignorant Morons Who Do Not Know How To Handle A Weapon, Or If We Do, Are Not A Bunch Of Trigger Happy Imbeciles! My Husband Has A Concealed Carry Permit And You Would Never Know If He Was Carrying Or Not, But You Would Be Damn Glad To Be In His Presence If Someone Were Threatening You! Also The Whole Point Of Carrying Is To Be Prepared If Or When It Might Happen! There Is Too Much Evil Going On In The World To Put On Rose-colored Glasses And Believe Nothing Will Ever Happen To You, But To Be Prepared For It If It Does!! Also To Put A Gun In Your Backpack Instead Of On Your Person Where It Can Be Easily Accessed Is Shear Stupidity......whoever Said Meredith Would Not Have Benefited From Having A Weapon Is Wrong And I Bet Her Family Would Disagree With You Also. It Would Have Gave Her A Fighting Chance, If She Knew How To Handle A Weapon.....

You Go Girl! Finally, Someone With "balls".

KMACK
12-05-2009, 05:21
If one was to meet me on the trail one would never guess that I was a cop but just as I do on a regular basis at work I would do the same on the trail if some one needed help. I hike to get a way from work but my work never leaves me. Yes I carry on the trail.

LimpsAlong
12-05-2009, 08:23
The problem with alot of you people on here is you heap all pro-gun advocates into one pile! I was born and raised in the north but live in the south as have all my generations before me and the term "hillbilly" is used tooo loosely!! We are not allll a bunch of ignorant morons who do not know how to handle a weapon, or if we do, are not a bunch of trigger happy imbeciles! My husband has a concealed carry permit and you would never know if he was carrying or not, but you would be damn glad to be in his presence if someone were threatening you! Also the whole point of carrying is to be prepared IF or WHEN it might happen! There is too much evil going on in the world to put on rose-colored glasses and believe nothing will ever happen to you, but to be prepared for it if it does!! Also to put a gun in your backpack instead of on your person where it can be easily accessed is shear stupidity......Whoever said Meredith would not have benefited from having a weapon is wrong and I bet her family would disagree with you also. It would have gave her a fighting chance, if she knew how to handle a weapon.....

VERY well said! I choose not to be a victim.

Ol Mole
12-05-2009, 09:33
There have been times that I carry on the trail. To me the type of trail, location, etc are factors in determining whether to carry or not. I have had occaisions to utilize a gun regarding both people and animals. Limpsalong has some good points regarding protecting his family. I have also had experiences where I wished I had one.

To each their own. For me, I would rather be the hunter than the huntee if the situation arose.

Hike on

Cheers
12-05-2009, 09:46
Next time i hit the AT i'm packing heat. Forget about having it in the backpack, i'm strapping mine to my 4-wheeler. I need to find somewhere to park my 36" wheel toyota pickup first though.

Cheers

EMAN
12-05-2009, 10:14
as i not so politely informed a dumbarse whose property backs up to mine when he unloaded his rifle in the direction of my house in the attempt to kill a rabid skunk (or so he says), if you can't hit something after 8 tries, you do not need to be holding a gun, much less firing it, and therefore do not need to resupply. in fact, somebody should take the gun away from you and beat you with it...


Sorry darlin...I reckon my post was a bit confusing. Actual point there was the clip/magazine thing.

Also, I'd still like to know who owns an "automatic" handgun. Pretty rare. Someone here actually said his 1911 was an automatic. Not impossible but not likely as I'm reasonably certain most of the 1911's I've fired were semi-automatic.

I know...tomatoes and tomahtoes.....auto...semi auto..........

kanga
12-05-2009, 10:53
Sorry darlin...I reckon my post was a bit confusing. Actual point there was the clip/magazine thing.

Also, I'd still like to know who owns an "automatic" handgun. Pretty rare. Someone here actually said his 1911 was an automatic. Not impossible but not likely as I'm reasonably certain most of the 1911's I've fired were semi-automatic.

I know...tomatoes and tomahtoes.....auto...semi auto..........
no!no! i knew what you were sayin, i was just using it to make a side point.

LimpsAlong
12-05-2009, 10:54
Also, I'd still like to know who owns an "automatic" handgun. Pretty rare. Someone here actually said his 1911 was an automatic. Not impossible but not likely as I'm reasonably certain most of the 1911's I've fired were semi-automatic.
I know...tomatoes and tomahtoes.....auto...semi auto..........

You hear it all the time from ABC,CBS,MSNBC etc. "The killer legally purchased the AUTOMATIC rifle/pistol ". Leading the uninformed to think anyone can walk into a gunshop, plunk down the cash and walk out with an automatic weapon.
You would be (well, maybe not) suprised how many folks form opinions about firearms based on what they hear without doing any research themselves.
There have also been some very long-winded posts on this forum when after the first paragraph you knew the poster was talking out their backside and then giving life or death advice to the original poster.
75% of the people on this board have more hiking experience than me and I have asked for and gotten some excellent advice. How were these people able to offer such excellent advice and recommendations to me?
Because they had a lot of mileage and experience in the area being discussed.
If you offer advice in survival preparedness please know what you are talking about.
<END OF RANT>

Rain Man
12-05-2009, 11:52
If you offer advice in survival preparedness please know what you are talking about.

Hiking the AT is "survival preparedness"? News to me. But does remind me of this research--

How We Confuse Real Risks with Exaggerated Ones (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1564144,00.html?xid=feed-yahoo-full-nation-related)

Rain:sunMan

.

LimpsAlong
12-05-2009, 12:11
Hiking the AT is "survival preparedness"? News to me. But does remind me of this research--

How We Confuse Real Risks with Exaggerated Ones (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1564144,00.html?xid=feed-yahoo-full-nation-related)

Rain:sunMan

.

I meant the concealed carry debate. Poor composition (maybe choice of words) on my part.

spindle
12-05-2009, 12:19
Next time i hit the AT i'm packing heat. Forget about having it in the backpack, i'm strapping mine to my 4-wheeler. I need to find somewhere to park my 36" wheel toyota pickup first though.

Cheers

Don't forget your pack of beagles and scout troop. Make a day of it!

Tuckahoe
12-05-2009, 13:51
Sorry darlin...I reckon my post was a bit confusing. Actual point there was the clip/magazine thing.

Also, I'd still like to know who owns an "automatic" handgun. Pretty rare. Someone here actually said his 1911 was an automatic. Not impossible but not likely as I'm reasonably certain most of the 1911's I've fired were semi-automatic.

I know...tomatoes and tomahtoes.....auto...semi auto..........

I know that there are those that when they hear automatic, seem to only think of "machine gun."

Far be it for me to point point out that that the M1911 was and is an automatic (and was markested as an automatic, as opposed to the single and double action revolvers more common at the time) as its enegery is harnessed to automatically open the slide, eject the spent casing, carry the slide forward and stripping a cartridge out of the magazine and carrying it into the chamber. Firing the pistol again carried out the same actions of automatically preparing the pistol to be fired again.

To refer to a "semi-auto" pistol as an automatic is correct as well as using terms such as "autopistol", "autoloader", "self-loading", and "autopistol."

I know we all get hung up on terms missapplied by the media, but it important to understand the historic context of terms used.

randyg45
12-05-2009, 14:05
I know we all get hung up on terms missapplied by the media, but it important to understand the historic context of terms used.

Well, maybe; but terms change over time. I remember when "gay" meant "lighthearted".

Whatever the history may be, imo "automatic" and "semi-automatic" are not, today, synonomous; I think it important to understand the difference. So did the NRA Training Counselor who taught my Certified Instructor courses.

TD55
12-05-2009, 14:24
Aren't "semi-automatic" weapons modified "automatic" weapons with a design modification implemented to make them "semi-automatic"?

LimpsAlong
12-05-2009, 14:25
I think it important to understand the difference. So did the NRA Training Counselor who taught my Certified Instructor courses.
Uh Oh Tuck, Trump card played :eek:

LimpsAlong
12-05-2009, 14:35
Aren't "semi-automatic" weapons modified "automatic" weapons with a design modification implemented to make them "semi-automatic"?

I can only speak from experience on one weapon, the AR-15. There are additional parts required to make the weapon full-auto. The full-auto sear or lightning link have to engage the hammer and only release it when the bolt is fully closed.
You can hold a 1911 loosely and get it to rattle off several rounds but this is not true full-auto as your finger depresses the trigger for every shot.

Tuck probably knows about some older blow-back military arms that don't require extra parts to function fully auto but i don't.

Tuckahoe
12-05-2009, 14:36
Aren't "semi-automatic" weapons modified "automatic" weapons with a design modification implemented to make them "semi-automatic"?

NO. As the BATF sees it for example once a machinegun always a machinegun and a MG modified to be a semi-auto, would still be considered a MG and subject to the 1934 NFA act.

Semi auto receiver are semi-auto. And for example the lower receiver of the AR-15 and the M-16 might look the same, the AR-15 is missing a particular hole in the receiver that allow the installing of the auto sear.

TD55
12-05-2009, 14:42
Thanks. So, it sounds like some weapons are designed as semi auto and have to be modified to be auto.

LimpsAlong
12-05-2009, 14:45
And for example the lower receiver of the AR-15 and the M-16 might look the same, the AR-15 is missing a particular hole in the receiver that allow the installing of the auto sear.

Except if you have a lightning link which installs in semi-auto receivers that do not have the receiver block.

randyg45
12-05-2009, 14:59
Aren't "semi-automatic" weapons modified "automatic" weapons with a design modification implemented to make them "semi-automatic"?
I've answered this four times and had start over each time; but I think the best answer is: no, it's actually more like the other way around. Certainly most semi-autos can be "converted", usually with half-assed results. Actually did that by accident once- my gunsmith Geoff and I polished and lightened and polished and lightened a Volquartsen trigger we had put in a Ruger slabside until it no longer properly engaged the sear and it went full auto on me when I took it to the range to test it. Shot 6-7 rounds in a fast stacatto and then jammed :(. Kept jamming :(:( Geoff did something to it, told me to quit (*&%&*-ing with it :sun

Cheers
12-05-2009, 15:14
For firearms chat here is a link to a gun forum http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/

I though the original post was about carrying guns on the AT, maybe i misunderstood the question.

Cheers

Jim Adams
12-05-2009, 15:16
I carry day to day but never while hiking...it's the safest thing that I do!

geek

LimpsAlong
12-05-2009, 15:24
For firearms chat here is a link to a gun forum http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/

I though the original post was about carrying guns on the AT, maybe i misunderstood the question.

Cheers

Uh Oh, you are right. Thanks for the reality check.

The Weasel
12-06-2009, 15:58
First, if memory serves correct you were referencing the firearm I linked to. It neither has nor needs a trigger a guard; so I'm pretty sure thats what you meant. It's a pretty unigue piece...

Second, it's hard to imagine how you could be more wrong about the 1911 and many other semi-autos (the Browining Hi-Power, my fave 9mm, comes instantly to mind).

Third- you've evidently done a lot of research on gun law; and really done us all a favor doing so. I only wish you would do the same kind of research concerning individual gun models and their safety features.

Folks, I've practiced law, and shot guns (including the 1911) for a long, long, time. "I didn't know it was loaded" and "The safety was on" are two of the saddest words anyone can hear, and I don't care how much "rangemasters" have done stupid things in your presence. I only have to be right once for a tragedy (and one that's avoidable) to happen. You can't afford to be wrong once.

Best advice about firearm safety that I've ever gotten was from a smart guy with even longer experience with guns, my Dad: "Every gun is loaded. Even if you're sure it's not. No gun has its safety on. Even if you're sure it is." A truly unloaded handgun in a backpack is impractical, and a loaded one is dangerous.

TW

Montana AT05
12-06-2009, 16:24
A lawyer, in California...it all makes sense now!

Guns are good. Mmm mmm mmm.

kolokolo
12-06-2009, 17:18
If you want to carry a gun on the trail, then go ahead and carry one. In my humble opinion it is not needed, and makes the possibility of an accidental shooting more likely.

Does anyone know of any documented cases where a person used a gun to prevent or thwart an attack on the AT?

The Weasel
12-06-2009, 17:31
A lawyer, in California...it all makes sense now!

And one who has used and owned guns - including hand- and long-guns - probably longer than you've been alive.


Guns are good. Mmm mmm mmm.

Guns are not good. Guns are not bad, either. Guns are things. People? Those are good, or bad, but never things.

TW

Jack Tarlin
12-06-2009, 17:36
No, I've never heard of such a case.

And sorry, the "If you wanna carry one, go ahead" argument overlooks the fact that in many cases on the Trail, it is clearly illegal to carry a firearm.

Better to say "If you want to carry one, fine, but be aware of associated local, state, and Federal laws that apply, and be aware that you are responsible for both knowing these laws, and obeying them."

I have nothing but respect for law-biding gun owners and gun carriers.

There's a name for non law-abiding gun rs and carriers.

These people are called "criminals".

Jack Tarlin
12-06-2009, 17:37
Meant to say "gun owners and carriers."

rickb
12-06-2009, 18:10
Anyone know how many of the five thru hikers who have been killed on the AT were slain with an illegal hand gun?

kolokolo
12-06-2009, 18:41
And sorry, the "If you wanna carry one, go ahead" argument overlooks the fact that in many cases on the Trail, it is clearly illegal to carry a firearm.

Better to say "If you want to carry one, fine, but be aware of associated local, state, and Federal laws that apply, and be aware that you are responsible for both knowing these laws, and obeying them."



You are right, Jack. Thanks for the correction.

Garlic
12-06-2009, 19:05
I support the second ammendment and understand the reasoning behind it, but see no need to carry the extra weight and ammo on a long hike unless the crime rate goes up significantly.

Lone Wolf
12-06-2009, 20:47
the paranoia, ignorance and knowitallism in this thread is awesome. kinda like avid sports fans who critique games and players but have never actuall played the sport

Airborne3325
12-06-2009, 20:57
Does anyone know of any documented cases where a person used a gun to prevent or thwart an attack on the AT?[/quote]

Several years ago while camping along Noonatoola not far from the trail, I used a gun to run off some college kids who snuck into my campsite and were trying to steal my beer from a cooler. I didnt document anything and I doubt they did either. I also doubt they quit running until they made it off the mountain.

beakerman
12-06-2009, 21:02
I agree with garlic..as a gun owner, user and hiker I see no reason to carry a sidearm of any type on a trail as well traveled as the AT. Now if you are talking bear country (I mean grizzlies not black) then you bet I think a large bore high power hand cannon is just as essential as toilet paper.

Garlic
12-06-2009, 21:37
Thanks Beakerman - actually, bear spray/pepper spray actually may be the better option instead of a side arm -it doesn't weigh as much and there is less to keep up with (cleaning the wepaon, keeping track of rounds, etc.)

rickb
12-06-2009, 21:38
... I see no reason to carry a sidearm of any type on a trail as well traveled as the AT. ....

Plenty of stretches on the AT this week where you would pretty much be the only hiker out there, and almost certainly have the shelter all to yourself.

ShelterLeopard
12-06-2009, 22:59
Folks, I've practiced law, and shot guns (including the 1911) for a long, long, time. "I didn't know it was loaded" and "The safety was on" are two of the saddest words anyone can hear, and I don't care how much "rangemasters" have done stupid things in your presence. I only have to be right once for a tragedy (and one that's avoidable) to happen. You can't afford to be wrong once.

Best advice about firearm safety that I've ever gotten was from a smart guy with even longer experience with guns, my Dad: "Every gun is loaded. Even if you're sure it's not. No gun has its safety on. Even if you're sure it is." A truly unloaded handgun in a backpack is impractical, and a loaded one is dangerous.

TW

Weasel, this is exactly what I was trying to say in another thread about guns. But I gave up- no one you are talking to will listen. (Just like you said, sure, many people who have guns are responsible. But there are stupid people out there, there are people who don't know what they're doing, there are people who drink before deciding to show off with their guns, there are accidents.)

Well said, Weasel.

BadIdea
12-07-2009, 02:37
It's bizarre that over 25% of men in this poll say they carry but none of the people I'v spent time with on my thruhike or shorter hikes carried a gun. Says something about internet people.

Lone Wolf
12-07-2009, 02:41
It's bizarre that over 25% of men in this poll say they carry but none of the people I'v spent time with on my thruhike or shorter hikes carried a gun.

how do you know that? did you search these men?

randyg45
12-07-2009, 03:51
Folks, I've practiced law, and shot guns (including the 1911) for a long, long, time. "I didn't know it was loaded" and "The safety was on" are two of the saddest words anyone can hear, and I don't care how much "rangemasters" have done stupid things in your presence. I only have to be right once for a tragedy (and one that's avoidable) to happen. You can't afford to be wrong once.

Best advice about firearm safety that I've ever gotten was from a smart guy with even longer experience with guns, my Dad: "Every gun is loaded. Even if you're sure it's not. No gun has its safety on. Even if you're sure it is." A truly unloaded handgun in a backpack is impractical, and a loaded one is dangerous.

TW

I think it is worth noting first that no one- no one- here has suggested or really discussed carrying a handgun in a backpack. Except you.

But lets examine a minimum series of events that has to happen, in sequence, inside a backpack for a 1911 to fire in the condition in which most people would carry it should they chose to throw it into a backpack. That condition, in my opinion, is: fully loaded magazine, chamber empty, hammer down, thumb safety on. There are safer conditions, and less safe conditions, but I'm a slow typist and the tempus is a fugiting; so we'll only consider this one for now.

1. The thumb safety must be moved to the "off" position.

2. The slide has to be moved fully to the rear, a task some people are unable to do with both hands. This has to happen inside a pack filled with all kinds of stuff, none of which can be allowed to fall into the open, exposed chamber, thus blocking it. The weight of the gun alone is insufficient to do this, btw, regardless of how tightly the slide may be gripped by your... whatever... tent?; the slide must be pushed or pulled to the rear, and it takes significant force to do so.

3. The slide then has to come all the way forward and chamber a round while doing so. The most efficient way to do this is for the slide to come forward as rapidly as possible; a slowly moving slide virtually ensures a jammed firearm. This has to happen, as noted above, without anything dropping into the opened chamber.

4. The grip safety has to be depressed.

5. Simultaneously with #4, something must work its way into the trigger gaurd and pull the trigger.

6. Simultaneously with #3, #4, and #5, nothing in this crowded pack interior can be allowed to drop, slide, or bounce into the area between the hammer and the firing pin.

It's just not going to happen. #s 2 and 3 are essentially impossible under the conditions described. People are at far greater risk, in my opinion, not just from the drive to the trailhead, but also from rattlesnakes, falling limbs, falling off of cliffs, lighting, brown recluse spiders, drowing, alcohol poisoning, heart attack, and death by chigger attack. Among others.

Not only is it not going to happen, no one wants to carry a gun there anyway. Get a CCW, put the thing in your pocket, if appropriate for your model, or in a holster.

randyg45
12-07-2009, 03:55
It's bizarre that over 25% of men in this poll say they carry but none of the people I'v spent time with on my thruhike or shorter hikes carried a gun. Says something about internet people.

You searched them? Can you state for a fact you never met, I don't know, me? Most people who carry do so (very) discreetly.

ShelterLeopard
12-07-2009, 11:20
But Randy, even you have to admit that accidents can happen and idiots do exist. I know, they've happened around my home. And it is true that it isn't usual and that a responsible gun owner isn't very likely to have an accident like that, but it has happened. And also stupid people fool around or get drunk then use guns. We all know that you know what you're doing, but the FACT is that there are people in this world who do not know how to handle a firearm, and have killed people or been killed because of it.

Like Weasel said, it only has to happen once for it to be a tragedy, so even if the statistic of gun accidents are "much lower" than other causes of death, there are still accidental gun related deaths.

The Weasel
12-07-2009, 11:41
Randy:

I don't think you've followed the whole discussion. First, the question is whether a gun is practical for a thru hike for protection. If someone is carryig a handgun, they will either have it holstered or in a pack. Putting it in a pocket, given hipbelts, isn't going to work. Not for 2,000 miles. Holsters are difficult to arrange with hipbelts. Impossible? Of course not. But that's a challenge.

The other choice is carrying it in a pack. So while I'm the only one to raise that here, in other threads others HAVE. It's also impractical. Yes, if you're carrying a gun in your pack, I agree that it is risky to have the gun cocked, as I've mentioned. On the other hand, if it isn't, that's one more delay when someone needs to use it (1, open the pack; 2, fish out the gun; 3, find the gun; 4, chamber a round; 5, release safety; 6, hope your attacker has paused while you perform 1-5). So yeah, if it's not chambered, it's a lot harder for an accident to happen, if it's in your pack. (It also means never leaving your pack out of your hands; not just "nearby" but where someone can reach into it, but that's another problem.)

If that's something you think is practical for 2200 miles of hiking, including arranging for it to be "shuttled" around National Parks and other locations that still prohibit handguns (you think shuttling a dog is hard? can't wait to see "gun shuttles"!) then go for it. But one of the things that I think is remarkable here is that for all the blather about "I gotta carry heat on the trail to protect myself from all them nasties," I have not seen a single post from anyone who has completed a thru while packing a handgun, much less found it of benefit.

TW

mweinstone
12-07-2009, 12:00
if i carry my gun on the at in pa legaly with my carry permit only where allowed, and if while doing so i happen to stop a mass murderer who pops into camp killing folks, then im still a jerk for bringing a gun. and if that mass murderer has a bomb on him that dosnt go off cause i stop him, and if that bomb was going to take out the eastern seaboard, then im still a jerk for bringing a gun to the trail.
the reason is, because as long as their are anyu places where humans with guns volentarily dont carry them, then those places are regaurded as sacred or special in some way. and it is only when nothing anymore is sacred or special, that guns become the least of our problem. for now, mankind has hope . proff of this hope is his willingness not to carry when he could.

bronconite
12-07-2009, 13:51
Randy:

I don't think you've followed the whole discussion. First, the question is whether a gun is practical for a thru hike for protection.

TW

Actually, the original poster said nothing about "thru" hiking.;)

I do agree on the point that thru hiking the AT, with a handgun, legally, would be very difficult.

LimpsAlong
12-07-2009, 13:58
Randy:

I don't think you've followed the whole discussion. First, the question is whether a gun is practical for a thru hike for protection.
TW
Actually the poll question is, Do you carry a handgun on the AT?
Not thru hike.

bronconite
12-07-2009, 14:09
Daydream -- the topic comes up quite often on the forum and there are most have a pretty firm opinion one way or the other. I am of the belief that it is very valid and even responsible consideration to arm one's self. It's certainly not a question of being fearful but a realization of the fact that you and only you are responsible for your own protection and self-defense. NO other soul has the responsibility or obligation to protect you.

I do not believe that those who do choose to arm themselves are not skittish people that live in fear of aspects of society. Those that I know are responsible people who see having a piece as merely a tool to protect themselves should it ever arise to that point.

Weasle -- I read your article and realize that from a legal standpoint, as well as the reality that there are 50 different state laws to contend with, but I was wishing there was more to section #5 on weapons. You may want to note for example that Federal law will change in February 2010 to bring National Park Service regulations on weapons in line with state laws making concealed weapons legal in NPS sites located states where concealed carry is legal.

Tuckahoe, I fully agree with this, but would like to add to the very last part about the new Federal law that goes into effect in February. If your state does not prohibit open carry, then it will not prohibited on NPS land, making legal carry without a permit an option. This is the case in PA and I believe in VA as well.

LimpsAlong
12-07-2009, 14:13
Randy:

I don't think you've followed the whole discussion. First, the question is whether a gun is practical for a thru hike for protection. If someone is carryig a handgun, they will either have it holstered or in a pack. Putting it in a pocket, given hipbelts, isn't going to work. Not for 2,000 miles. Holsters are difficult to arrange with hipbelts. Impossible? Of course not. But that's a challenge.

The other choice is carrying it in a pack. So while I'm the only one to raise that here, in other threads others HAVE. It's also impractical. Yes, if you're carrying a gun in your pack, I agree that it is risky to have the gun cocked, as I've mentioned. On the other hand, if it isn't, that's one more delay when someone needs to use it (1, open the pack; 2, fish out the gun; 3, find the gun; 4, chamber a round; 5, release safety; 6, hope your attacker has paused while you perform 1-5). So yeah, if it's not chambered, it's a lot harder for an accident to happen, if it's in your pack. (It also means never leaving your pack out of your hands; not just "nearby" but where someone can reach into it, but that's another problem.)

If that's something you think is practical for 2200 miles of hiking, including arranging for it to be "shuttled" around National Parks and other locations that still prohibit handguns (you think shuttling a dog is hard? can't wait to see "gun shuttles"!) then go for it. But one of the things that I think is remarkable here is that for all the blather about "I gotta carry heat on the trail to protect myself from all them nasties," I have not seen a single post from anyone who has completed a thru while packing a handgun, much less found it of benefit.

TW

I call BS on couple of statements. First-Holsters are difficult to arrange with hipbelts. Impossible? Of course not. But that's a challenge.
El Wrongo- Got a Granite Gear, Large, hip belt pouch. Works great, weapon out in a couple of seconds (string extension on zipper)

Second, I have not seen a single post from anyone who has completed a thru while packing a handgun, much less found it of benefit.
I think you told Randy he has not been following the discussion, well maybe you ain't been following the poll question. Where are the words "Thru Hike" in the poll question?

Your position on the poll question is clear and I can mentally see you folding your arms and stomping your foot while blathering (your word) about the uselessness of handguns on the trail.

BTW, Josh at Hiker Hostel did a "gun shuttle" for me and didn't even know it. Ask him if he minds.

Red Beard
12-07-2009, 14:20
Who says holsters have to be worn on the hip? I have a couple of pocket holsters that work very well with my Ruger LCP & Kel Tec P3AT. These weapons are so light and small you'd have very little trouble concealing them with some lightweight nylon cargo shorts.

This being the case, it would be extremely difficult to keep the weapon dry and ready at all times. I love my guns, but I don't carry on the trail.

napster
12-07-2009, 14:23
So how many expired people on the AT have been accidently capped in the ass before? None i suspect! How many capped on purpose and still living? .You really believe that turning tail and running will save your ass? I believe in gut instinct and God given clubs, no matter what caliber.

toenail
12-07-2009, 16:33
Other than our single experience of seeing a handgun on the trail (POST # 35),we have NEVER seen any other handguns. Anyone else have any experiences?

mweinstone
12-07-2009, 16:52
if i brought my gun on a pa hike with my concealed carry permit, i would loose friends, dignity and my peace of mind. carrying a weapon demands protocal above and well beyond fun. leaveing a weapon unnatended is illegal outside your home. and letting anyone even catch a single quick glimpse of a weapon while changeing, is brandashing witch is a felony ofence. guns are only for those of us who know when not to carry them. if you even want your gun on my trail, i wont be hikeing or pitching anywhere near you. gun boasting and love of guns is for jerks. respect and skill are required combined with an absolute understanding of each gun law. how many of you can name without remiss, each place in your city you may not carry your leagaly permitted carry weapon. in philly it is a large and mostly unstudyed list. and far from town, even at small doctors offices along the trail, their can be signs dissallowing them in offices where doctors and patients meet. the thread should be,...whos affriad of the big bad woof and the boogie man. not matthewski.and im armed to the molars.at home.

Jack Tarlin
12-07-2009, 16:56
If I lived where you do, I'd do the same!

mweinstone
12-07-2009, 17:23
if someone did carry on the trail on a longer hike, they eventually would run into the situation where they must go into a gun restricted space while hikeing and might then easily rationalize stashing it in the woods. but then kids playing unawasres to you might find and misuse it.palmerton jail is one place i know you would not be allowed. fontana dam. and what about hostels? dont they get the respect of being asked? or do you shower with it? all in all , we got cops and soldiers to carry guns for us at times like when were hikeing. they do fine.i think a thread poll should be, would you hike with someone knowing they had a gun? answer, never. sept mountain dew and other cop hikers.

bfitz
12-07-2009, 17:25
But Randy, even you have to admit that accidents can happen and idiots do exist. I know, they've happened around my home. And it is true that it isn't usual and that a responsible gun owner isn't very likely to have an accident like that, but it has happened. And also stupid people fool around or get drunk then use guns. We all know that you know what you're doing, but the FACT is that there are people in this world who do not know how to handle a firearm, and have killed people or been killed because of it.

Like Weasel said, it only has to happen once for it to be a tragedy, so even if the statistic of gun accidents are "much lower" than other causes of death, there are still accidental gun related deaths.Accidents happen all the time whether you have a gun or not. What is fair and what ought to be legal doesn't always represent the safest option. I'm sure we'd all be a lot safer if the bill of rights was mostly repealed.

bronconite
12-07-2009, 17:26
leaveing a weapon unnatended is illegal outside your home.

Can you provide a link to that law


and letting anyone even catch a single quick glimpse of a weapon while changeing, is brandashing witch is a felony ofence.
This is absolutly false. Pennsylvania is an open carry state. Being able to "see" someones firearm does not constitute brandishing. And furthermore Pennsylvania doesn't even have a "brandishing" law.

Montana AT05
12-07-2009, 17:26
Wow. So much hand-wringing and panty-bunching over the 2nd Amendment.

Is this the result of 24/7 American Idol worship? Or generations of soft Liberal Arts?

You can have your Adam Lambert and male eyeliner; I'll take my Johnny Cash and my .45.

Bottom line: It's not just "legal" to own and carry, it's a Constitutional right for a reason--no level Govt bestowed this as legal, we the People asserted it as a right prior creating our system of Govt.

Do you need a gun on trail? Who knows? It's your decision. Do I deride the man who decides no? No, I don't. I myself don't carry. So why must some people call people call those who decide to carry a gun "jerks" or "braggarts"? Is the non-carrier's manhood at stake? Judging by some of reasoning above, I advise such people to not worry, your loss will not be great.

If you want to carry on a trail, go ahead, if you want to wear it on your hip like many hikers out west do, go ahead, if you choose to conceal it, go ahead. If you chose not to own and/or carry, go ahead.

But good Lord almighty this metrosexualization of American men is a sad thing to behold.

Do you know who else started to think that weapons were bad after a few generations of luxury and security? Who thought only paid mercenaries or conscripts should have them? Yes...that would be a people who had gone from rugged individuals to a collective of perverse imitations of men more prone to back aches acquired in bath houses than on the field. That would be increasingly effiminate Romans of the 3rd and 4th century.

Ya. That worked out well for them.

<...time warp...>

Perfumed Roman Man: "Oh hi thar Visigoth! Wanna go for a splash? No? Huh? Wassdat you have in your hand? Eeeeeeiiiieeee!!"

And now, a note from our sponsor:

"The heavy weapons of their ancestors, the short sword and formidable pilum, which had subdued the world, insensibly dropped from their feeble hands...[]...and their pusillanimous indolence may be considered as the immediate cause of the downfall of an empire."
--Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, The Modern Library. p.520,521

"This diminutive stature of mankind, if we pursue the metaphor, was daily sinking below the old standard, and the Roman world was indeed populated by a race of pygmies; when the giants of the North broke in, and mended the puny breed."
--Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, The Modern Library. p.37

mweinstone
12-07-2009, 17:39
your not allowed to carry an unconcealed gun. duh.what you drinkin?

mweinstone
12-07-2009, 17:42
While Pennsylvania has a specific law that requires a License To Carry Firearms for the concealed carry of a firearm, and the carry of firearms in vehicles, the law is silent on the legality of openly carrying a firearm in other situations, making it de-facto legal.

There is however a law that requires a License To Carry Firearms to carry either way in "cities of the first class", which as defined by law is only the city of Philadelphia.

DrRichardCranium
12-07-2009, 17:42
.

Do you need a gun on trail? Who knows? It's your decision. Do I deride the man who decides no? No, I don't. I myself don't carry. So why must some people call people call those who decide to carry a gun "jerks" or "braggarts"? Is the non-carrier's manhood at stake?

First there is this, then:



But good Lord almighty this metrosexualization of American men is a sad thing to behold.

Do you know who else started to think that weapons were bad after a few generations of luxury and security? Who thought only paid mercenaries or conscripts should have them? Yes...that would be a people who had gone from rugged individuals to a collective of perverse imitations of men more prone to back aches acquired in bath houses than on the field. That would be increasingly effiminate Romans of the 3rd and 4th century.

Ya. That worked out well for them.

<...time warp...>

Perfumed Roman Man: "Oh hi thar Visigoth! Wanna go for a splash? No? Huh? Wassdat you have in your hand? Eeeeeeiiiieeee!!"



You claim not to deride people who don't carry, then imply that a man who doesn't is a pansy.

You ask "is the non-carrier's manhood at stake?" Evidently it is, according to you.

Now I have to go search the Gear section for a Visigoth-proof food bag.

LimpsAlong
12-07-2009, 17:48
But good Lord almighty this metrosexualization of American men is a sad thing to behold.



Agreed, Your whole post was well written.

kanga
12-07-2009, 17:54
First there is this, then:



You claim not to deride people who don't carry, then imply that a man who doesn't is a pansy.

You ask "is the non-carrier's manhood at stake?" Evidently it is, according to you.

Now I have to go search the Gear section for a Visigoth-proof food bag.
i took it that he wasn't deriding the non-carrier. he was deriding the hysterically whining liberals. it is probably just a coincidence that they are sometimes occurring in the same place.
could just be me, though.

Sleeps_With_Skunks
12-07-2009, 18:27
Anyone know how many of the five thru hikers who have been killed on the AT were slain with an illegal hand gun?

I don't know if they were thru hikers but in two hikers were shot by Randall Lee Smith in 2008. This was after he had killed two other hikers in 1981 in Maine. Here's the most recent news story...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354705,00.html


SWS

ShelterLeopard
12-07-2009, 18:43
Accidents happen all the time whether you have a gun or not. What is fair and what ought to be legal doesn't always represent the safest option. I'm sure we'd all be a lot safer if the bill of rights was mostly repealed.

Whoa! No, did not say that I thought the right to bear arms was wrong. Definitely not, actually. I am defending what I said earlier about being somewhat uncomfortable around people who carry guns. I just know that guns are powerful weapons. We are not talking about changing any laws here, we're talking about if one should (by any person's standards) hike with a gun. I am just adding the opinion that in some cases, knowing that someone else is carrying a gun may make me decide not to hike with that person. But it often depends on the person.

toenail
12-07-2009, 18:46
There's not a whole lot of empire-building going on out on the AT. Mostly it's just college age people that have a lot of time to kill. No one's out there yelling, " I am Sparticus".

ShelterLeopard
12-07-2009, 18:47
But good Lord almighty this metrosexualization of American men is a sad thing to behold.

Come ON. Are you serious? Sure, defend your right to carry a gun, but everyone who doesn't is suddenly weak? This is getting really pathetic.

kanga
12-07-2009, 18:47
I'm sure we'd all be a lot safer if the bill of rights was mostly repealed.

i'm sorry. what? are you an american citizen?

Bearpaw
12-07-2009, 18:51
i'm sorry. what? are you an american citizen?

Satire, dear. Satire.

kanga
12-07-2009, 18:53
Satire, dear. Satire.
i certainly hope so. i was fixin to get riled.

The Weasel
12-07-2009, 19:16
I call BS on couple of statements. First-Holsters are difficult to arrange with hipbelts. Impossible? Of course not. But that's a challenge.
El Wrongo- Got a Granite Gear, Large, hip belt pouch. Works great, weapon out in a couple of seconds (string extension on zipper)

Second, I have not seen a single post from anyone who has completed a thru while packing a handgun, much less found it of benefit.
I think you told Randy he has not been following the discussion, well maybe you ain't been following the poll question. Where are the words "Thru Hike" in the poll question?

Your position on the poll question is clear and I can mentally see you folding your arms and stomping your foot while blathering (your word) about the uselessness of handguns on the trail.

BTW, Josh at Hiker Hostel did a "gun shuttle" for me and didn't even know it. Ask him if he minds.

Well, here's why so many people really get offended by gun owners like you.

Gosh. I made a mistake. Like that's the first time in your life you've noticed it. But since I don't agree with every word you say, it's a major deal. Dang! Call names! Call BS!! Make nasty allusions!!! Wow!!! Feel better? Now that you've established that you can attack another gun owner/user for not being "acceptable", I'm sure that people will realize they better not mess with you!!!

Nor have I said a gun is useless, on the trail or elsewhere. It's utility is a different topic, but practicality has been the dominant theme here. And while I'm sure that some can find ways to wear a holster or do other things to pack a gun safely, it's not routine, either, especially if someone is going to attempt a thru. As I said before, in Post 18, carrying a gun is very, very difficult.

So go jump up and down because someone didn't genuflect to the Gun God (or at least the way you want him worshipped), but me? I shoot, I've carried guns for about 55 years now, and if you want to keep sounding like anyone who disagrees with you is evil, well, keep on. Me, I think carrying a gun while hiking the AT is very impractical.

TW

The Weasel
12-07-2009, 19:20
The question here isn't whether guns are good, bad or legal or not. It's whether they make sense on the AT. The Bill of Rights doesn't enter into it, nor does whether someone is "a man" or not (even if they are a woman).

SL has a very, very good point: Guns make some people unconfortable. Guns displayed by grumpy men along the trail make some people very uncomfortable, including some, like me, who own guns themselves. That's another reason not to carry a gun on the trail: If there is very little reason to carry one, and it causes problems for a lot of other people, maybe it can be left at home.

TW

The Weasel
12-07-2009, 19:24
***BTW, Josh at Hiker Hostel did a "gun shuttle" for me and didn't even know it. Ask him if he minds.

This is an interesting comment: If you're referring to the HH in Dahlongega, are you saying that you left a weapon (was it loaded?) in a pack or other gear without telling someone there was a gun there, and let them then shuttle it somewhere unknowingly?

That has some troubling implications, including some legal ramifications. I hope I'm incorrect in what was done.

TW

Jack Tarlin
12-07-2009, 19:43
I have never met a thru-hiker who carried a firearm throughout their hike, tho I'm quite sure it has happened. And if they did so, they were prudent and wise enough not to let anyone know about it; and this is fine, it is, after all, nobody's business, assuming they were obeying the law.

I also know of several folks who have publicly announced that they either carried while on their thru-hikes or have let folks know that they carry on the A.T. when day or section-hiking, and I have no doubt whatsoever that most of these claims are false, i.e. these comments are either public or more frequently, Internet bravado.

Very very few people carry on the A.T. and even fewer ever talk about it.

At least they don't if they have any sense.

Deb
12-07-2009, 19:50
I don't know if they were thru hikers but in two hikers were shot by Randall Lee Smith in 2008. This was after he had killed two other hikers in 1981 in Maine. Here's the most recent news story...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,354705,00.html


SWS

The two hikers were FROM Maine. He did not kill them in Maine.

rickb
12-07-2009, 19:58
None of the five thru hikers who were murdered on the AT were carrying a hand gun when they were killed. Or raped then killed.

I can't help but wonder how may more victims there would have been had the criminals been certain that all of their potential victims were almost certainly unarmed.

Those that don't carry on their hikes (and doing so is problematic at best) own a deep debt of gratitude to the law abiding locals who do so responsibly.

gunner76
12-07-2009, 19:59
Unless I missed reading a post I have not seen these questions asked...

How many AT Hikers have had to shoot someone while hiking the AT ?

How many AT Hikers have had to pull their gun (concealed or not) and use it to protect themselves by showing it while hiking the AT ?

Okie Dokie
12-07-2009, 20:03
Think Jack Tarlin's take on the matter, above, is probably very close to reality...lot's of bravado out there...my experience is that you'll begin to hate anything in your pack that you know (or even suspect) is useless weight...can't see how anyone on a thru wouldn't begin to hate the weight of a gun after only a week in Georgia...if you do pack a gun the only sensible approach is to never tell a soul...once you tell people you have a gun your behavior/conversation better be impeccable or they'll want to put some distance between themselves and you...I'm not against guns - I've owned and used them all my life and think owning them is a right responsible people should be able to enjoy...just think a thru hiker has a much better chance of being bitten by a snake or struck by lightning than being put in a situation where a gun would be needed to save life/limb...a little common sense and situational awareness goes a long way...

Jack Tarlin
12-07-2009, 20:03
Gunner:

*I know of no A.T. hikers who ever felt the need to shoot someone while on
their hikes (other than criminals, who I'm not counting here as "A.T. hikers".)

*I know of no hikers who ever felt the need to reveal or pull a firearm in
order to protect themselves while hiking the A.T.

Of course, I'm not saying it's never happened. But if it ever had, you'd think this would be widely known and discussed.

rickb
12-07-2009, 20:05
just think a thru hiker has a much better chance of being bitten by a snake or struck by lightning than being put in a situation where a gun would be needed to save life/limb...


No thru hiker has ever been killed by a snake on the AT.

No thru hiker has ever been killed by lightning on the AT.

Five thru hikers have been murdered on the AT. Four by firearms and one by an ax.

cowboy nichols
12-07-2009, 20:07
I'm a woman and I do not carry when hiking.I did while working in Miami Fl.
I also would say if I was.

cowboy nichols
12-07-2009, 20:08
Opps That should have read I would not say if I was.

toenail
12-07-2009, 22:30
Visigoth Balls are on sale this week at Big Lots!

Red Beard
12-07-2009, 22:43
i took it that he wasn't deriding the non-carrier. he was deriding the hysterically whining liberals. it is probably just a coincidence that they are sometimes occurring in the same place.
could just be me, though.

I sincerely doubt it is a coincidence. Love your signature! :D

kolokolo
12-07-2009, 22:48
Several years ago while camping along Noonatoola not far from the trail, I used a gun to run off some college kids who snuck into my campsite and were trying to steal my beer from a cooler. I didnt document anything and I doubt they did either. I also doubt they quit running until they made it off the mountain.

Oh, you're right, Airborne3325, we should all carry guns on the trail so that we can protect our beer!

slow
12-07-2009, 23:54
When your time is up it's up.Guns in the woods,if not hunting is just pure EGO.

Desert Reprobate
12-07-2009, 23:59
You're better off carrying a banjo. It will probably make you friends with the people you would want to shoot.

Monkeyboy
12-08-2009, 00:49
Guns don't kill people...........but they make it really easy.

Garlic
12-08-2009, 00:58
Hey, about about the old phrase, "Hike your own hike"

slugger
12-08-2009, 01:33
Hey, about about the old phrase, "Hike your own hike"

Hey now.... That's crazy talk. Maybe it's a good idea.

woodsy
12-08-2009, 01:52
Sissies pack heat, real hikers walk softly and carry big stick.

KMACK
12-08-2009, 02:12
The original poll was "Do you carry a hand on the AT" not "Who thru hikes and carries". If I had the time to do a thru I would change my answer to no. And no I'm not a sissie. Sissies = victim.

beakerman
12-08-2009, 03:35
But Randy, even you have to admit that accidents can happen and idiots do exist. I know, they've happened around my home. And it is true that it isn't usual and that a responsible gun owner isn't very likely to have an accident like that, but it has happened. And also stupid people fool around or get drunk then use guns. We all know that you know what you're doing, but the FACT is that there are people in this world who do not know how to handle a firearm, and have killed people or been killed because of it.

Like Weasel said, it only has to happen once for it to be a tragedy, so even if the statistic of gun accidents are "much lower" than other causes of death, there are still accidental gun related deaths.

ShLep so what are you saying here that firearms should be banned? then by all means let's get rid of all things that idiots use to accidentally kill one another!

Are you willing to give up your vehicle (assuming you own one--not a judgement some folks just don't)? Folks---sober, sane and well meaning folks accidentally kill other folks with their vehicles everyday--don't even get me started on the drunks! That is a straight line deduction from what you said.

On the AT a gun is just dead weight in my opinion---what or who is there to be worried about? Keep in mind I have a complete irrational fear of bears and along the AT I would not carry--the statistics just don't warrant the weight penalty.

That being said I also think that there should not be laws prohibiting me, a law abiding citizen from owning and carrying a legal gun of my choosing when I decide to do so.

LimpsAlong
12-08-2009, 07:49
Dang! Call names! Call BS!! Make nasty allusions!!! Wow!!! Feel better? TW

Go back and read some of your posts, I think you called the pro-carry speech "blather". Nasty allusions?? Oh, stomping your foot? I thought it was funny. As far as calling BS, well sir, it WAS BS.

TW[/quote] As I said before, in Post 18, carrying a gun is very, very difficult.

You just don't get it do you? Several posters here have explained how they carry and why. I don't remember reading where they carried on the trail but "Holy Cow was it a nightmare to tote that thing!". I've explained how I carry, ain't gonna do it again. I guarantee it is not any where near "very, very difficult".

TW[/quote] So go jump up and down because someone didn't genuflect to the Gun God (or at least the way you want him worshipped),
I, uhh, just don't, uhh, ............WHAT?? !!

TW[/quote]

randyg45
12-08-2009, 07:50
Weasel-

As I have said, I hike with my little peashooter in my pocket. As someone else has said, a cargo pocket on his hipbelt holds his just fine. I have pants with cargo pockets that could carry large hand cannons that would be, in my opinion, far too much weight and hassle. All safely.

Which is where you make an excellent point- the hassle factor. Clearly everyone makes their own decision about every piece of gear they carry, safety equipment specifically included. Some here think that minimal cooking is just too much hassle and eat cold. They're hiking a far different hike than me, and that's not just fine it's peachy keen fine. Many have decided a firearm is too much hassle; that's also peachy keen fine.

But to say it cannot be done safely is just, in my opinion, dead wrong. I agree with you that carrying one in a pack partially defeats the purpose; if someone else disagrees because they just want one with them in their tent at night- that's peachy keen fine with me. It's their hike, their firearm, and their perception of their personal safety.

rickb
12-08-2009, 08:16
But to say it cannot be done safely is just, in my opinion, dead wrong. I agree with you that carrying one in a pack partially defeats the purpose; if someone else disagrees because they just want one with them in their tent at night- that's peachy keen fine with me. It's their hike, their firearm, and their perception of their personal safety.

Exactly. But as you say, having it in a pack only partially defeats its purpose.

Most of the people killed on or near the trail were murdered at or near a shelter. Not all, most. That suggests to me that there was likely some interaction between the victims and their killers before they were shot.

We also know that most of those killed (thru hikers and non thru hikers alike) were hiking with a friend, and not by themselves.

Would a period of interaction have alerted a gun owner? Would any of them had time to prepare themselves by transferring their weapons from their pack to a pocket, or by bringing a holstered revolver into their sleeping bags?

No way to tell, of course.

One thing we do know is there have been no (zero) accidental shootings of thru hikers because of safety malfunctions or poor gun handling, but 5 thru hikers have been killed by complete strangers on the AT.

If no law abiding citizens packed in the backcountry, I am thinking there could well have been more. My guess, of course.

randyg45
12-08-2009, 08:18
But Randy, even you have to admit that accidents can happen and idiots do exist. I know, they've happened around my home. And it is true that it isn't usual and that a responsible gun owner isn't very likely to have an accident like that, but it has happened. And also stupid people fool around or get drunk then use guns. We all know that you know what you're doing, but the FACT is that there are people in this world who do not know how to handle a firearm, and have killed people or been killed because of it.

Like Weasel said, it only has to happen once for it to be a tragedy, so even if the statistic of gun accidents are "much lower" than other causes of death, there are still accidental gun related deaths.

Are there accidents with guns? Of course there are. Just as with anything else. One of the reasons I became involved with firearms training was to reduce accidents. I heartily reccomend More Guns, Less Crime by Dr Lott and Armed and Female by Paxton Quigley. Paxton worked for Handgun Control Inc until her roommate was beaten, raped, and killed by thugs at their leisure.

How many accidental shooting deaths have there been on the trail? None, right? How many people have defended themselves with a firearm? Unknowable, since by far the most frequent act of self-defence committed by an armed citizen is simply showing the evil-doer the weapon.

randyg45
12-08-2009, 08:23
I'm sure we'd all be a lot safer if the bill of rights was mostly repealed.
That could be a fascinating discussion.

mrc237
12-08-2009, 08:29
I did some research and there have been like 9 murders through 2008 on the AT. That's not so bad when you figure there are probably 9 murders in one night in New York City.
Or 32 murders in one day on a Virginia Campus or someone terrorizing an entire state shooting people from the back of a car. Maybe your research was a little biased. Its a national problem.

mrc237
12-08-2009, 08:31
Add this to the poll:
I'm a scaredy cat and I carry a gun on the AT.

mweinstone
12-08-2009, 08:53
member rambo movies? thats whats really going on here.

Rambler
12-08-2009, 09:44
Some States (eg. Maine and NH, TN) require non-resident permits in order o carry concealed weapons, ie. handguns. Permits are not cheap: Maine $60, NH $100. If a gun is used without these permits, you will be in trouble, and difficult to defend your actions.

The cost of shooting someone is significant regardless of the circumstances. Think of $50,000 to $100,00, to say nothing of the time an aggravation. You will be sued. This means trial, lawyers fees, and if you lose, well, good luck.
You life will be dramatically changed, innocent or guilty.

If you must shoot someone. Use pepper spray.

IMO A handgun is one more heavy piece of unnecessary gear to be left in a safe at home.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/gov_gun_law_per-government-gun-laws-permits

woodsy
12-08-2009, 10:19
A stout staff is all you need, a multi purpose piece of equipment, hiking aid and defense mechanism.
One whack to your head from my poplar staff and you're going down hard.
No need to reach for it either, its already in my hand.

ShelterLeopard
12-08-2009, 11:46
ShLep so what are you saying here that firearms should be banned? then by all means let's get rid of all things that idiots use to accidentally kill one another!

So I'm going to assume that you didn't read this post of mine (#187, I think)...


Whoa! No, did not say that I thought the right to bear arms was wrong. Definitely not, actually. I am defending what I said earlier about being somewhat uncomfortable around people who carry guns. I just know that guns are powerful weapons. We are not talking about changing any laws here, we're talking about if one should (by any person's standards) hike with a gun. I am just adding the opinion that in some cases, knowing that someone else is carrying a gun may make me decide not to hike with that person. But it often depends on the person.

ShelterLeopard
12-08-2009, 11:55
Sissies pack heat, real hikers walk softly and carry big stick.


A stout staff is all you need, a multi purpose piece of equipment, hiking aid and defense mechanism.
One whack to your head from my poplar staff and you're going down hard.
No need to reach for it either, its already in my hand.

I like your train of thought woodsy! (Several of my family members wanted to buy me pepper spray and all that jazz for the trail, and my uncle (Ga-ME '92, I think, just said nope, take yer stick.)

Weasel, I don't think this thread is going to go anywhere. The second anyone even mentions the idea that guns may make people uncomortable or whatnot on the trail (not mentioning banning guns on trail or anything like that), some slightly stubborn people just stop reading and think "anti- guns!", and never bother to take in the rest of the post.

You could write that you love guns, carry them, always will, know about guns, etc..., but that some people don't like 'em, and WHAM. "That guy doesn't like guns, get him!"

bronconite
12-08-2009, 14:57
Some States (eg. Maine and NH, TN) require non-resident permits in order o carry concealed weapons, ie. handguns.
This is not entirely true. TN accepts all other state's permits, so with my PA permit, I'm legal there. ME and NH also accept some other state's permits.



The cost of shooting someone is significant regardless of the circumstances. Think of $50,000 to $100,00, to say nothing of the time an aggravation. You will be sued. This means trial, lawyers fees, and if you lose, well, good luck.
You life will be dramatically changed, innocent or guilty.

If the highly unlikely were to happen, and you were to take the life of another in self defense, that would mean that you (or another innocent) were at risk to great bodily harm or death. What's your life and health worth?

Where do your cost figures come from?

Exactly what is the percentage of those, that defend themselves with firearms, that get sued?

Jack Tarlin
12-08-2009, 15:03
There's an old expression about it being better to be judged by twelve than carried into church by six.

There are worse things than being sued. :-?

mweinstone
12-08-2009, 15:11
my lifes hope is to be a human sheild by throwing myself at the attacker and dieing a marter and gettin a good seat close up to the throne.

mweinstone
12-08-2009, 15:12
who loves the govenator?!and who is your daddy?

beakerman
12-08-2009, 15:16
So I'm going to assume that you didn't read this post of mine (#187, I think)...

Actually ShLep I ddidn't real all of the posts prior tothe one I quoted...fair enough.

However the implication of the post I quoted is that you are uncomfortable with folks carrying guns. You never claimed you wanted them banned...hence my opeing question: What are you saying here...?

Looking further at subsequent posts I htink my conclusion that you are uncomfortabel with guns is fair. All I was trying to do with my post is point out that there are so many ways for tragic accidents to happen that I think the last thing I would worry about is one of my hiking partners getting tanked up and shooting either himself or another in the party.

wrongway_08
12-08-2009, 15:27
There's an old expression about it being better to be judged by twelve than carried into church by six.

There are worse things than being sued. :-?

Yup and ...... dead crimminals don't sue!!! If you pull a gun in defense .... you pull it to kill, never just to hurt and get away.

I mean if a guy pulls a stick out .... well just beat him down hard and walk away.
If he pulls a knife or gun ..... then there is a head shot in order.

Monkeyboy
12-08-2009, 15:41
I like Jello shots better........

LimpsAlong
12-08-2009, 16:33
Yup and ...... dead crimminals don't sue!!! If you pull a gun in defense .... you pull it to kill, never just to hurt and get away.

I mean if a guy pulls a stick out .... well just beat him down hard and walk away.
If he pulls a knife or gun ..... then there is a head shot in order.

If you do have to go to court make sure there is only one side of the story told.

Tuckahoe
12-08-2009, 17:08
I have said my piece and I was going to stay out of this thread. But there are just a few things that I feel that I have to respond to.

There are some here who have contributed nothing more than name calling. To refer to those who do carry as “Rambo”, “scaredy cats” or to assume that one is on some sort of ego trip, or to assume someone is a pussy because they may choose to carry a weapon is uncalled for here. A few of you have objected to being called metrosexual weenies because you may choose not to carry; but, let’s be honest and point out who really has been doing the name calling here.

As far as accidental discharges of firearms, let me say this – there is NO SUCH THING as an accidental discharge of a weapon. I know that for some it makes it a whole lot easier to demonize firearms if you have the belief that they just simply go off by accident, but no sorry, it doesn’t happen like that. Firearms not just go off. They are machines that require a human being to act upon that machine. Let us use the correct terminology here, and that is NEGLIGENT. A drunk with a gun is not an accident waiting to happen, it is negligence. It disgusts me as it should disgust everyone. On the other hand, I guess that is why I don’t hang out with people that do drink.

Which brings me to you, Shelter Leopard. See, the most natural right man has is the right to self defense. Shlep, who is responsible for your defense? Please answer that question (and everyone else). Do you believe that the police or a ranger will protect you? Do you believe that they have an obligation to protect you? Do you think that someone in your group will protect you? The one thing that I learned about group dynamics is that the more people there are, the less likely any one of them will act to defend another. And just remember this. When seconds count, help will be minutes, is not hours away.

There are evil people no matter where you are and the AT is not immune from that evil. What are you going to do to defend yourself when someone is determined to beat the **** out of you? If I were one that was intent on evil, there isn’t anything that you could do to stop me. Let’s add to that the fact that according to some, 1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted at some point in their life. Do you really believe that that can’t be a possibility on the trail? And I am not talking about hikers here. What if you are followed back to the trail by some thug from the town you just visited?

Why the discomfort with the thought of anyone being armed? It’s an honest question as I don’t get it. I think that the term I am going to use is hoplophobia, and I think that there is an unnatural fear. Based on the poll at the top here, nearly a third of the people you will encounter on your thru hike will be armed. How will you determine who they are? Except for the fact that I have discussed it here, if you were to encounter me on the trail, you would never in your life know whether I am armed or not. Are you going to simply skip the southern states, Pennsylvania and Vermont, where it is more likely that someone you encounter – trail or town, it doesn’t matter – is armed? Do you avoid driving or riding in automobiles? There is a great risk of being injured in that car. And what about avoiding those pulling out the bud or the booze? I do not at all feel uncomfortable with those that are armed. But I am not going to be around those that are drunk or stoned.

Lone Wolf
12-08-2009, 17:12
I have said my piece and I was going to stay out of this thread. But there are just a few things that I feel that I have to respond to.

There are some here who have contributed nothing more than name calling. To refer to those who do carry as ďRamboĒ, ďscaredy catsĒ or to assume that one is on some sort of ego trip, or to assume someone is a pussy because they may choose to carry a weapon is uncalled for here. A few of you have objected to being called metrosexual weenies because you may choose not to carry; but, letís be honest and point out who really has been doing the name calling here.

As far as accidental discharges of firearms, let me say this Ė there is NO SUCH THING as an accidental discharge of a weapon. I know that for some it makes it a whole lot easier to demonize firearms if you have the belief that they just simply go off by accident, but no sorry, it doesnít happen like that. Firearms not just go off. They are machines that require a human being to act upon that machine. Let us use the correct terminology here, and that is NEGLIGENT. A drunk with a gun is not an accident waiting to happen, it is negligence. It disgusts me as it should disgust everyone. On the other hand, I guess that is why I donít hang out with people that do drink.

Which brings me to you, Shelter Leopard. See, the most natural right man has is the right to self defense. Shlep, who is responsible for your defense? Please answer that question (and everyone else). Do you believe that the police or a ranger will protect you? Do you believe that they have an obligation to protect you? Do you think that someone in your group will protect you? The one thing that I learned about group dynamics is that the more people there are, the less likely any one of them will act to defend another. And just remember this. When seconds count, help will be minutes, is not hours away.

There are evil people no matter where you are and the AT is not immune from that evil. What are you going to do to defend yourself when someone is determined to beat the **** out of you? If I were one that was intent on evil, there isnít anything that you could do to stop me. Letís add to that the fact that according to some, 1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted at some point in their life. Do you really believe that that canít be a possibility on the trail? And I am not talking about hikers here. What if you are followed back to the trail by some thug from the town you just visited?

Why the discomfort with the thought of anyone being armed? Itís an honest question as I donít get it. I think that the term I am going to use is hoplophobia, and I think that there is an unnatural fear. Based on the poll at the top here, nearly a third of the people you will encounter on your thru hike will be armed. How will you determine who they are? Except for the fact that I have discussed it here, if you were to encounter me on the trail, you would never in your life know whether I am armed or not. Are you going to simply skip the southern states, Pennsylvania and Vermont, where it is more likely that someone you encounter Ė trail or town, it doesnít matter Ė is armed? Do you avoid driving or riding in automobiles? There is a great risk of being injured in that car. And what about avoiding those pulling out the bud or the booze? I do not at all feel uncomfortable with those that are armed. But I am not going to be around those that are drunk or stoned.

best post on this thread

ShelterLeopard
12-08-2009, 17:12
Actually ShLep I ddidn't real all of the posts prior tothe one I quoted...fair enough.

However the implication of the post I quoted is that you are uncomfortable with folks carrying guns. You never claimed you wanted them banned...hence my opeing question: What are you saying here...?

Looking further at subsequent posts I htink my conclusion that you are uncomfortabel with guns is fair. All I was trying to do with my post is point out that there are so many ways for tragic accidents to happen that I think the last thing I would worry about is one of my hiking partners getting tanked up and shooting either himself or another in the party.

I'm saying exactly what Weasel said several posts below me. I am not saying that people should not carry guns, but if they do (in a fair amount of cases), I will often chose to hike on instead of stay where they are. Again, it really depends on the person carrying the gun, but still. What I am saying (in response to a blanket question about carrying a gun on the AT) is if someone carries a gun, it is possible that it will make others uncomfortable. And some people like to know things like that.

And I understand what you're trying to say as well. But even though the likelihood of a gun accident is very small, it doesn't matter how small it is, it is still there.

(Which is true of everything. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do or be comfortable with something, just that a certain degree of caution should be excersised.)

ShelterLeopard
12-08-2009, 17:18
Which brings me to you, Shelter Leopard. See, the most natural right man has is the right to self defense. Shlep, who is responsible for your defense? Please answer that question (and everyone else). Do you believe that the police or a ranger will protect you? Do you believe that they have an obligation to protect you? Do you think that someone in your group will protect you? The one thing that I learned about group dynamics is that the more people there are, the less likely any one of them will act to defend another. And just remember this. When seconds count, help will be minutes, is not hours away.

I am going to explain this one last time. I have explained in previous posts, I AM NOT CHALLENGING ANY PERSON'S RIGHT TO CARRY A GUN. I am explaining that I (and some others, I am sure) may be uncomfortable around someone who is carrying a gun. It may (sometimes) depend on the person, but nonetheless, carrying a gun may cause others discomfort. So, the option is to hike on. Which is fine, I will willingly hike on. I am just explaining the potential reaction one will get carrying a gun on the AT.

And when have I ever said anything about protection? What are you talking about? When did I ask anyone to protect me? I can protect myself, thanks. And would willingly protect anyone else as well.

mister pooh
12-08-2009, 17:22
In my opinion, this is rather simple:

1) If you wish to carry a firearm, and it is legal for you to do so, that's your right. It's your hike, and your choice to carry the weight.

2) If it is illegal for you to carry a firearm based on geographic location, permitting and all other laws restricting their use and you choose to carry, then you accept the consequences for your decision. No crying about "trampling my rights yada yada." If you choose to whine, you sound like a dreadlocked hippie wannabe crying because "the Man" won't let him carry and use his "religious herbs." The law is the law, you are not above it.

3) If you choose to carry, for God's sake know how to use your weapon and be responsible with it. This is especially true for an individual who normally doesn't carry but is given a firearm by a relative or friend for protection.

4) Some of the people you meet may be uncomfortable around someone with a firearm. Don't be surprised if they don't want to hang out with you. Keeping your weapon hidden but easily accessible seems to be the best route, but again only where it is legal to do so.

5) Obviously, "don't pull that thang out, unless you plan to bang." Then, again, be prepared to take responsibility for your actions.

Oh, and to Visigoth dude- seriously? Here's a hint: "Red Dawn" is a fictional movie, and not a very good one at that. It's got pre-nose job Jennifer Grey in it, and that's not good for anyone's health.

Wolverines :rolleyes:

FritztheCat
12-08-2009, 17:47
I don't own a firearm and I don't see myself owning one in the future. Just not my thing. However I can see where someone would want to carry one.

I'm not uncomfortable around people with firearms (if I were, I would have had a very short stint in the military rather than coming up on my retirement date) and I think people who are uncomfortable have their own issues to deal with.

It is interesting to me to see the poll about how many people carry on the AT. I don't feel one way or another toward it, just find it interesting.

beakerman
12-08-2009, 17:56
I'm saying exactly what Weasel said several posts below me. I am not saying that people should not carry guns, but if they do (in a fair amount of cases), I will often chose to hike on instead of stay where they are. Again, it really depends on the person carrying the gun, but still. What I am saying (in response to a blanket question about carrying a gun on the AT) is if someone carries a gun, it is possible that it will make others uncomfortable. And some people like to know things like that.

And I understand what you're trying to say as well. But even though the likelihood of a gun accident is very small, it doesn't matter how small it is, it is still there.

(Which is true of everything. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do or be comfortable with something, just that a certain degree of caution should be excersised.)

Ok ShLep. fair enough but here's a question for you then...just a hypothetical one...call it for my twisted curiosity (others are welcome to answer as well).

Think of the most stable person you know right now...Ok? now would you be most comfortable in which of the following situations: 1) they carry openly, 2) they carry concealed and tell you about it upfront or 3) the carry concealed and you don't really know but suspect they are carrying. Which of these would bother you the most (it's the same person in all three cases) and why?

Alligator
12-08-2009, 17:57
Don't place high confidence in the poll numbers. Some of the people voting aren't in the right categories:rolleyes:.

beakerman
12-08-2009, 17:58
Dang it I always do this...hit post when I mean to hit preview arrghh!

The reason I ask is I truely do not understand why anyone would be uncomfortable with another person carrying a gun.

Miner
12-08-2009, 18:06
I don't see why some people don't understand why someone might be uncomfortable around a stranger who is packing a gun on the trail. It's not a 2nd ammendment right or even a legal issue here. And many people who have stated that very thing are gun owners themselves (I'm one). Just because you know how responsible you are, the problem is the rest of us don't. There is already a problem if you are packing a concealed weapon and we know about it.

If you are out in the woods enough, many of us have come across idiots who have no business with a gun; in fact they give responsible gun owners a bad name. I've seen idiots shooting up things with no regard for the fact that there is a trail in the direction they are firing in. I've seen them shooting up private and public property. Some idiots think its funny to try to put a scare into you and violate many rules in gun safety such as always pointing it in a safe direction (ie not at someone that you don't intend to shoot) and always treat the gun as if its loaded. Often drugs and alcohol are involved and there is plenty of that flowing on the trail even without guns.

If I don't know you, I don't know if you are one of those idiots I just listed above, so I would prefer to avoid potential trouble and stay way from you rather then have a negative experience later on. And for all I know, you could be that 1 in a million bad guy on the trail who may actually want to kill me in my sleep so of course I want to avoid hanging around you; and thanks for giving me early warning by letting me know you are armed and possibly dangerous by not doing a better job at concealing it.

The Weasel
12-08-2009, 18:27
I am going to explain this one last time. I have explained in previous posts, I AM NOT CHALLENGING ANY PERSON'S RIGHT TO CARRY A GUN.

It doesn't matter that you - and I - aren't challenging gun rights. The "loud crowd" here doesn't care about that, since they really don't want to respond to the concept of "Does it make sense ?" They'd rather demonize anyone who disagrees with the "everyone should carry a gun all the time" mantra than discuss practicalities. Are there times when it makes sense to carry a gun, regardless of the discomfort? Sure. Are there times when it doesn't? Yes. But no matter what you say, SL, they'll make fun of our name and demonize you.

We've made our point, for those who are interested in discussing this topic. For the others, they don't want to discuss, just have diatribes. Let them.

TW

randyg45
12-08-2009, 18:49
The second anyone even mentions the idea that guns may make people uncomortable or whatnot

I'm not on the trail (or the planet) to cater to people who are made uncomfortable by this or that. If you are, perhaps we could start a thread about the fact that booze makes me uncomfortable; or perhaps we should ban peanuts from the trail because they are a real threat to some?

Someone called this sort of thing the "metrosexualization of the American male". In the middle of the woods, my behavior must conform to what makes you comfortable?

toenail
12-08-2009, 18:53
Think of the most stable person you know right now...Ok? now would you be most comfortable in which of the following situations: 1) they carry openly, 2) they carry concealed and tell you about it upfront or 3) the carry concealed and you don't really know but suspect they are carrying. Which of these would bother you the most (it's the same person in all three cases) and why?

However, it changes things quite a bit if you change the first sentence to; THINK OF A PERSON YOU HAVE NEVER MET BEFORE IN YOUR ENTIRE LIFE.

The Weasel
12-08-2009, 21:32
Randy can fear the onslaught of emasculization from unnamed creators of cute terms ("metrosexual" means something?), but simply put, yeah: When I'm hiking out in the woods, and I come to a shelter or go past a tent site and see some guy or lady I don't know from Adam's Ox sitting there, eyeing me closely, as they cradle their 9mm or loading their Colt Python methodically, I think I'll just admit to flat out terror that I have stumbled into a remake of Deliverance. And I may not be wrong, because there isn't some automatic neon light that flashes on the forehead of "good" people to say they aren't incipient criminals, nor is there one that flashes red for "Warning: Murder About To Happen." Is the person staring at me getting ready to shoot me? Should I run like hell and hope I"m safe? Oh! They "look" nice. So do most killers. And some nice people don't look that way. But a gun? Why does this person have a gun?

So yeah, Randy, I'm sorry, and I mean that not as sarcasm but real regret. In a better world you could carry your gun openly in places like the AT without terrifying a lot of people. But you can't. That's another reason not to carry; there is far less chance of needing a gun than there is of having to avoid drunken drivers at crossings. So carry a gun if you feel the need, but realize that people's fear of you is hardly groundless.

Empathy isn't weakness. Even if you don't agree (and no hard feelings if you don't), at least try to understand how others feel.

TW

ShelterLeopard
12-08-2009, 22:13
We've made our point, for those who are interested in discussing this topic. For the others, they don't want to discuss, just have diatribes. Let them.

TW

As usual, you are right Weasel. I'm just going to stop reading this thread because I've made the same point over and over, and it's getting old. (And every time I read a new response, I feel compelled to answer.)