View Full Version : Long Trail Thru in January (2011)?
ShelterLeopard
12-11-2009, 13:03
Just wondering, do any people do a LT thru in January/ February? I was thinking of doing it after I do the AT this coming year.
On average, how much snow do you think covers the LT in January? I MUST have snow. Love it, love it, love it! I know that more snow= slower hiking, more tired, etc, but that is fine by me.
NOT asking about gear right now. I'll worry about hardcore winter gear when I'm done with the AT. Mainly wondering, will I see people? I know sometimes people will do a bit of snowshoeing up there, etc.ee, but I'm assuming more for short day trips and not overnight, right?
I think it would be fun, if you like the cold and snow. Enough road crossings in the northern section to get warm every once in a while. Pass by a couple of ski resorts, if you so desire.
The only concern I might have are a few sections where the hiking can get a bit hairy. You might get snow but you will also have ice, especially on the north side of the summits. I'd consider SOBO'ing it so you can climb the ice rather than go down it.
This is all a guess on my part, it may be that the LT is simply not doable in the winter.
As for people, I think you'd have the trail to yourself on the weekdays and see a few snowshoers on the weekends.
Good luck on your PA shakedown. If it was any other section than Wind Gap to DWG, I might consider it, but section is downright cruel with rocks.
ShelterLeopard
12-11-2009, 13:40
Ha- thanks! We are doing two sections, by the way. The other will probably be worse though. (Wind Gap really isn't that bad... The elevation isn't hard, just the rocks...)
Wolf - 23000
12-11-2009, 17:07
ShelterLeopard,
Where to start? First, to answer your question about how much snow was on the trail, when I winter hike the Long Trail I saw between 3 - 5 feet on snow normally. While on the trail, almost no one backpacks out there. I've seen 2 couple that were both out for the a overnight, 1 that sent the whole night freezing their butts the whole night.
A little bit about me. I've hiked the PCT * 3 times, the AT * 5 - including a winter section hike entire AT, 5 hikes of the Long Trail - including a winter hike, 4 hikes of the JMT and the COT. In total, I've hiked around 24,000 miles - 8,000 miles done in the winter, about 1,500 miles have been done in New England. I'm not saying this to brag but only to point that I am a very experience backpacker.
Winter hiking the Long Trail is not to take something to take lightly. Hiking in the snow on the ground is only one of several issues you would have to deal with. Some of the other issues are going to include:
Route finding - As you I'm sure you are aware, the LT is marked with white blazes. The same color as the snow press up on the trees. The trail is also not maintain, meaning some of the mark trees maybe on the ground under several feet of snow.
Water. This is going to be the big one. There was only one place I found flowing water. Normal I had to melt snow/ice three times a day. Once in the morning, in the afternoon and in the evening. You will need to stop to make water. If you try make enough water in the morning for the whole day, it will end up re-freezing or take away heat from your body.
Snow on the trees. The Long Trail has a lot of pine trees that will be cover with snow. That may not sound like big of a deal but when you constantly have snow fall down on top of you and then freezing, it can make things interesting.
I could go on but simple put hiking the winter hiking the Long Trail is A LOT harder than winter hiking PA or the southern Appalachian.
Hopes this helps,
Wolf
ShelterLeopard
12-11-2009, 17:11
I could go on but simple put hiking the winter hiking the Long Trail is A LOT harder than winter hiking PA or the southern Appalachian.
Wolf
Which is exactly why I want to do it wolf! Thanks for your info. (Don't worry, I'm not just going to wander off into the wilderness and think it'll be a nice idealistic walk in the snow, and all comfort and hot cocoa at night. I'm planning to take an AMC winter survival course, and hopefully, one by a different group as well.)
My wallet is going to be on a starvation diet after I get all the extra winter gear I need though. Like a four season tent and super warm bag. Ugh. That's gonna cost me.
But no gear advice yet!!! I don't want to talk about heavy duty winter gear until I finish my thru.
My wife and I joke that the definition of a true "foodie" is someone who is already planning the next meal while eating the last one. Planning the next mega hike? wow. When will you be in PA and where? I hoped to do a section in December, now the plan is sometime in January, too...
Feral Bill
12-11-2009, 17:32
Going alone? That means breaking trail on snowshoes hour after hour with no relief. Grim at best. A group will make this much more possible.
On the plus side,the gear, fuel and food load will let you live up to your nickname.
ShelterLeopard
12-11-2009, 17:34
Two sections in PA, one January 16/17, and one the next weekend- both are basically just gear shakedowns for my thru,and the first one will be easy, and the next will be a beast. You're welcome (as is everyone) to join!
And you're right about foodies! That's exactly how I feel. The excitement of planning is amazing.
ShelterLeopard
12-11-2009, 17:38
True Bill! I definitely want to do a hardcore (hardercore, anyway) winter hike alone, but I thought maybe after the first two weeks I'd meet up with a couple others. We'll see. And it's fine if I get so tired and upset that I want to burst into tears and can't go more than two miles in the snow. I need something that'll kick my rear end and something that takes me out of my comfort zone.
Wolf - 23000
12-11-2009, 18:08
Which is exactly why I want to do it wolf! Thanks for your info. (Don't worry, I'm not just going to wander off into the wilderness and think it'll be a nice idealistic walk in the snow, and all comfort and hot cocoa at night. I'm planning to take an AMC winter survival course, and hopefully, one by a different group as well.)
My wallet is going to be on a starvation diet after I get all the extra winter gear I need though. Like a four season tent and super warm bag. Ugh. That's gonna cost me.
But no gear advice yet!!! I don't want to talk about heavy duty winter gear until I finish my thru.
ShelterLeopard,
No gear advice. :) I'm sure you are smarter enough to know it is not going to be easy hike. By the way a pot of boiling hot cocoa will be water for about 10 minutes before it turns back to ice.
If your going to take a winter course look into the experience of your instructor(s) before you waste your money. Most winter instructors themselves will only go out for a few days, and have little knowledge what is like to be out for weeks at a time. Also, I think the AMC teaches their winter course in NH which offers a different challenge than hiking VT.
Wolf
ShelterLeopard
12-11-2009, 18:09
Thanks wolf, good to know. I have a couple people I can ask about all the "courses" I could take.
And definitely investing in a thermos. Nissan, all the way.
Backpacking in the mountains of the Northeast during winter is not to be taken lightly. There is the real potential for several feet of snow cover that is going to impede progress. Breaking trail in deep snow is exhausting. Be prepared for temperatures 20 below. Water is going to be a challenge. Days will be short and nights long.
I certainly would not want to try it alone.
If you are looking for a winter adventure, try the Catamount Ski Trail.
And maybe think about those that are going to have to try and find/rescue you when things go very badly. Parts of southern VT are quite remote with few road crossings (several of which are closed in the winter).
I remember when Brian Robinson was working on his Triple Crown hike, he had to get off the AT in the spring in VT because the snow was so deep.
Cosmo
Backpacking in the mountains of the Northeast during winter is not to be taken lightly. There is the real potential for several feet of snow cover that is going to impede progress. Breaking trail in deep snow is exhausting. Be prepared for temperatures 20 below. Water is going to be a challenge. Days will be short and nights long.
I certainly would not want to try it alone.
If you are looking for a winter adventure, try the Catamount Ski Trail.
Shelter Leopard -- You have some interesting hiking plans. I admire your enthusiasm !!!
Lone Wolf
12-11-2009, 21:35
ShelterLeopard,
Where to start? First, to answer your question about how much snow was on the trail, when I winter hike the Long Trail I saw between 3 - 5 feet on snow normally. While on the trail, almost no one backpacks out there. I've seen 2 couple that were both out for the a overnight, 1 that sent the whole night freezing their butts the whole night.
A little bit about me. I've hiked the PCT * 3 times, the AT * 5 - including a winter section hike entire AT, 5 hikes of the Long Trail - including a winter hike, 4 hikes of the JMT and the COT. In total, I've hiked around 24,000 miles - 8,000 miles done in the winter, about 1,500 miles have been done in New England. I'm not saying this to brag but only to point that I am a very experience backpacker.
Winter hiking the Long Trail is not to take something to take lightly. Hiking in the snow on the ground is only one of several issues you would have to deal with. Some of the other issues are going to include:
Route finding - As you I'm sure you are aware, the LT is marked with white blazes. The same color as the snow press up on the trees. The trail is also not maintain, meaning some of the mark trees maybe on the ground under several feet of snow.
Water. This is going to be the big one. There was only one place I found flowing water. Normal I had to melt snow/ice three times a day. Once in the morning, in the afternoon and in the evening. You will need to stop to make water. If you try make enough water in the morning for the whole day, it will end up re-freezing or take away heat from your body.
Snow on the trees. The Long Trail has a lot of pine trees that will be cover with snow. That may not sound like big of a deal but when you constantly have snow fall down on top of you and then freezing, it can make things interesting.
I could go on but simple put hiking the winter hiking the Long Trail is A LOT harder than winter hiking PA or the southern Appalachian.
Hopes this helps,
Wolf
tell about the time i dropped you off at the north end in january and how unprepared you were
Blissful
12-11-2009, 21:52
Shlep, you are just like my 19 yr old son.
No fear and no reality check, even with others that give advice to the contrary.
Guess it comes with learning lessons the hard way, as he is doing right now... it can't be talked about as you will not believe it...it must be experienced. That is what he is finding out.
And we have to sit back and painfully watch. And pray hard.
Maybe this trail might be better for snowshoeing (or skiing!) in the VT winter. :)
http://www.catamounttrail.org/
EDIT: What Peaks said. :D
Slo-go'en
12-11-2009, 23:15
Maybe this trail might be better for snowshoeing (or skiing!) in the VT winter. :)
http://www.catamounttrail.org/
EDIT: What Peaks said. :D
Yes, that was what I was going to suggest. Sking the Catamount trail would be a LOT easier and just as rewarding. March would be ideal, the most amount of snow, longer and warmer days.
I shutter to think what it would be like to snow shoe up or down some of those really steep climbs they have on the LT. Like going up the back side of Madonna. There are places which would take you all day just to go a couple of miles.
Snowleopard
12-11-2009, 23:50
One of my more dubious winter adventures was in VT. My friends were going downhill skiing at Okemo Mt., but I decided I'd xc ski from the house we were staying at to Okemo. I was told there were trails that led there -- there were not. The 'easy' part of the trip was fairly level, but pure ice -- stride, stride, fall, stride, stride, fall. I finally found what appeared to be a trail and started following it up ( it turned out not to be a trail, but was the National Forest boundary markers :( ).
The snow here was waist deep with a crust. It quickly became impossible for me to ski on it. The crust was almost strong enough to stand on. The drill then became: walk one or two steps, fall through to waist deep, crawl out, crawl a few crawls, stand up, repeat...
Eventually, what I thought was a trail to the top of the mountain was clearly not. I had no map except a sketch that I made from a topo map. I did have a compass, so I navigated by a bearing off the opposite mountain, until I was sure I could get to the top by just going up in elevation.
I figure that I did almost half of the altitude gain by crawling.
What was good about this trip? I was in places that were really seldom visited by people. I don't think the route could be done at all without 3 feet of snow. I know a couple of guys considerably younger and stronger than me tried it in the summer and couldn't do it. I passed through a deer yard, which I had never seen before. The poor deer were starving because of the deep snow and were eating bark off the trees. I feel bad because I probably scared them away and stressed them.
What was bad about this trip? A few of the low points:
No snowshoes!!!! This was definitely needed.
No light.
No sleeping bag or shelter.
Nothing to make fire.
No map.
It was almost dark by the time I got to the top of the Mt. From there I could just ski down the ski trails (which were closed because of ice and me on edgeless xc skis).
Once it got dark I would have had to stop and wait out the night (no light, remember).
It was cold!! I would have survived the night, but I'm not sure how many toes I'd have by morning.
Any injury would have led to a very serious situation.
Lessons learned: It is possible to survive idiotically poor preparation, but proper gear is more reliable than luck.
300 miles of conditions like that would have been pretty tough no matter how well equipped. Proper winter gear adds up to a lot of weight and bulk.
Should you do the LT in winter? Actually, it sounds like fun to me! BUT, you need to get experience in winter hiking/snowshoeing/camping in situations where you can easily bail out if conditions get bad -- e.g., half a mile from the parking lot. You really should not do it the winter LT alone; too much can go wrong if you're by yourself.
I didn't read all the posts, so I'm sure I'll be repeating some. The LT is not built or maintained for winter use. There will be sections that are so trafficked you can walk in sneakers, but there will be lots of sections where the trail (if you can actually find it) will be a tunnel among snow-laden pines, and you'll be duck-walking for considerable distances. You may find yourself walking along what appears to be clear trail, but it only appears that way because you are walking above the trees, until you fall through and get stuck. Without a partner to help you out of the spruce hole, you're in serious trouble. Winter is the time to heed the advice not to hike alone.
Hey, don't let me stop you, but the Catamount trail would be a far better choice. I'll reiterate: hiking the LT in winter can be pretty serious stuff. Finding it can be nearly impossible.
Mainly wondering, will I see people? I know sometimes people will do a bit of snowshoeing up there, etc.ee, but I'm assuming more for short day trips and not overnight, right?
Assume nothing! There will be plenty of day trippers and overnighters in certain parts, you might even run into others doing a thru, but your weekdays are likely to be alone.
ShelterLeopard
12-12-2009, 01:55
Shelter Leopard -- You have some interesting hiking plans. I admire your enthusiasm !!!
Thanks Jeff.
Shlep, you are just like my 19 yr old son.
No fear and no reality check, even with others that give advice to the contrary.
Guess it comes with learning lessons the hard way, as he is doing right now... it can't be talked about as you will not believe it...it must be experienced. That is what he is finding out.
And we have to sit back and painfully watch. And pray hard.
I wouldn't say no reality check, I am not a naive, wide eyed little girl skipping off to go snowshoeing, planning on doing 10 miles a day and sitting around camp, drinking hot chocolate, about to wander off on a LT thru in mid winter without preparation.
Although yes, I am sure I will learn some things the hard way. But who doesn't?
I may not have mentioned it here (I have another very similar thread going in which I'm also talking about winter camping, so I keep getting confused about what I've already posted), but I'm definitely planning on taking some heavy duty winter survival courses. At first I thought NOLS, but I may also look into the AMC courses, and we have a family friend who is an avalanche specialist, and may be willing to teach me a bit.
Wolf - 23000
12-12-2009, 07:21
ShelterLeopard,
Winter hiking the LT can be a very rewarding feeling, dangerous but also rewarding. I know, I've been frozen several times but still manage.
I would like to suggest this, hike the Long Trail in the summer first - tack it onto your AT thru-hike. I'm sure you can do it but more important it will give you an idea of what to expect and what to plan for. Some of the courses you are thinking of, you won't need.
Wolf
Just wondering, do any people do a LT thru in January/ February? I was thinking of doing it after I do the AT this coming year.
On average, how much snow do you think covers the LT in January? I MUST have snow. Love it, love it, love it! I know that more snow= slower hiking, more tired, etc, but that is fine by me.
NOT asking about gear right now. I'll worry about hardcore winter gear when I'm done with the AT. Mainly wondering, will I see people? I know sometimes people will do a bit of snowshoeing up there, etc.ee, but I'm assuming more for short day trips and not overnight, right?
I won't tell you not to do it, it will probably only harden your resolve (I was 19 once ).
Your biggest burden will probably be the extra clothing you should be carrying on a multi day winter trip (everything gets wet from sweat, add in snow and rain - yes, it probably will). Boots are usually problematic, too. Leather boots eventually become saturated and frozen, Gore-tex is worthless on longer hikes as the saturated outer layer of the boot becomes a barrier to its breathability, and nylon and full-on plastic boots don't breathe - you'll need to remove the linings and sleep with them to keep them from freezing.
You will travel [I]MUCH more slowly (I'd say an average of 4-6 miles/day - maybe a little more in the southern section), and, of course, the days are shorter (psychologically making the nights much longer than they actually are - which is LONG and LONELY. It's not likely you'll meet many people during the weekdays and nights except at road crossings.
Bring vapor barrier socks to keep your insulative socks dry (or, driER).
Start from the south. A few days there will give you a taste of what you're in for without the climbs you'll find farther north.
I, personally, wouldn't try the traverse over Mt. Mansfield without at least an ice axe and crampons (crampons should be on your pack any time winter hiking takes a turn upwards or downwards), and I don't think I'd do it alone. If you do go ahead and attempt the hike, please don't attempt this section solo.
I'd also start the hike with someone experienced in winter hiking in the Northeast mountains. The closest I ever came to death was during an attempt to climb the Bigelows (Maine) when it began to rain midday over four feet of snow. Luckily I had the sense to bail out as I figured I'd never make it to the shelter (gone now) before nightfall and there wasn't any place level in between. I was in my 40s then. The incident instilled a healthy fear of winter climbing in me. I rarely attempt any demanding climbs alone any more.
Consider a trail where you can be remote, experience tough climbs, lose the sheer depth of snow you'll have on the LT, but also lose the built-in safety of shelters and warming huts. Take a look at the Benton MacKaye Trail.
Start at Davenport Gap on the north edge of the Smokies. Begin with a 4000 foot ascent that will remind you of a treed-in Katahdin. Expect snow (and ice) at higher elevations. Continue south for 300 mile until you finish on top of Springer Mountain again.
Along the way, you'll pass only two shelters, several wilderness sections with no blazes, steeper climbs than the AT generally offers, and more than any thing else, plenty of very real solitude.
You'll see a handful of folks in GSMNP, but after that first 100 miles, expect almost nobody. 200 miles alone. In often sub-freezing conditions. Even without multiple feet of snow, this should still be well outside your comfort zone. It would be a great time to reflect on what your thru-hike has meant as well as what you'll do next.
And you may even have the feeling of "closing the loop" or "returning to the scene of the crime" as you hike over Springer and head back down to Amicalola one more time.
ShelterLeopard
12-12-2009, 12:55
Thanks Bearpaw- I actually really like the sound of that idea.
And thanks Tinker- crampons are definitely on the list. But I'm not worrying about winter gear until I get back from my thru. Though I do want to think about this a little bit (just to store in my head for when I feel like planning the next), I really want to focus on my thru, especially in terms of gear.
Wolf- I thought about that. Just so I'd be completely familiar with the terrain at least during one type of weather. We'll see what I do.
Shlep I think that sounds like an awesome follow up to your thru, **** maybe maybe you'll see me out there after mine. Based on the weather information available you are going to be dealing with some nasty ****. gear will be a huge factor, gore-tex is your new best friend consider a multi layer nesting sleep system like the ECWSS. and some pressurized "mickey mouse boots". That being said it can be done, and don't overthink gear. think about training principles like COLD (CleanLooseLayersDry) even more. Hydration is a big issue in that enviroment cause you don't want to pound cold water but you should. SOme training courses will help but sometimes you finish some serious "cold weather and mountaineering" training with the impressions that you froze for 3 weeks and got a cute piece of paper, the end ( thanks Mountain Leaders Course 10ID). YOur plan sounds like one that will need a fair bit of prep but is completely doable for the prepared and commited.
Athos
white_russian
12-13-2009, 09:06
Shlep I think that sounds like an awesome follow up to your thru, **** maybe maybe you'll see me out there after mine. Based on the weather information available you are going to be dealing with some nasty ****. gear will be a huge factor, gore-tex is your new best friend consider a multi layer nesting sleep system like the ECWSS. and some pressurized "mickey mouse boots". That being said it can be done, and don't overthink gear. think about training principles like COLD (CleanLooseLayersDry) even more. Hydration is a big issue in that enviroment cause you don't want to pound cold water but you should. SOme training courses will help but sometimes you finish some serious "cold weather and mountaineering" training with the impressions that you froze for 3 weeks and got a cute piece of paper, the end ( thanks Mountain Leaders Course 10ID). YOur plan sounds like one that will need a fair bit of prep but is completely doable for the prepared and commited.
Athos
Good ideas in the army does not always good ideas in real life.
ECWSS, give me a break, 8 lbs 11 oz. Western Mountaineering is more like it. A WM Puma GWS that will keep you warm guaranteed comfortable to -40 is 4 lbs 10 oz. If the ECWSS is anything like the MSS the -60 rating is extremely overrated and based more on a survival temp than a comfort temp.
neighbor dave
12-13-2009, 09:29
i will come out right now and say you won't make it as a through hike in winter.
have you ever hiked days on end in full winter conditions up here?
you'll be soaked to the bone no matter what kind of gear you have, you'll need to dry your stuff out routinely. breaking trail through fresh deep snow solo will have you going maybe 1 mile per hour at best.
some of the gaps are closed in winter, (i.e. ) no road access/longer hauls of food.
some if the wilderness areas have very poor blazing and you will get lost losing valuable time, and using your food supply up faster.
here's a shot of the l.t. near mount abraham, those snow laden branches are tough to dodge with a full pack.
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=15362&catid=member&orderby=title&direction=ASC&imageuser=4327&cutoffdate=-1
another one;
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=36549&catid=member&orderby=title&direction=ASC&imageuser=4327&cutoffdate=-1
good luck!:welcome
neighbor dave
12-13-2009, 09:37
here's a good link for you to monitor;
http://www.nohrsc.nws.gov/interactive/html/map.html?mode=pan&zoom=¢er_x=++-70.54¢er_y=+++44.21&ql=station&var=ssm_depth&dy=2009&dm=12&dd=12&dh=6&snap=1&o9=1&o12=1&o13=1&lbl=m&min_x=-75.516666666669&min_y=41.45&max_x=-69.383333333336&max_y=46.05&coord_x=-72.45000000000249&coord_y=43.75&zbox_n=&zbox_s=&zbox_e=&zbox_w=&metric=0&bgvar=dem&palette=1&width=600&height=450&nw=600&nh=450&h_o=0&font=0&js=1&uc=0
it's an "interactive weather chart". once you figure out how to use it, it'll be a great resource.
here's a great local weather page;
http://www.eotsweb.org/forecasts.php
as for gear, you'll need full winter gear, but more importantly, you'll need a strong will and desire to kep truckin', and a level calm head for when you get lost, and you will get lost, that's a guarantee
If you do this, head NOBO, you'll have a better chance of the blazes being visible (they'll be on the south facing side of trees, thereby getting more sun, and less of the windblown wet frozen snow that forms when a cold front blows through). Even then, many times you will know you're on trail more by the cut branches of trees and other signs of maintenance than by the blazes.
Snowleopard
12-13-2009, 14:44
Neighbor Dave, thanks for the weather link. Bearpaw, that Benton Mackay trail sounds interesting.
SL, just get out and do some local hiking or head up to NY (Catskills or Shawungunks, or Binghampton area). Do day hikes if you don't have sufficient equipment for winter overnights. Try renting snowshoes and try them out when there's significant snow. The more winter experience you can get the better, even for you AT thru. Learn how to layer your clothes so you don't overheat and sweat. Look up the local hiking clubs. Check the NY/NJ AMC chapter activities: http://trips.outdoors.org/
Here's a bit of winter reading to get everybody in the mood. It's the student handbook for the ADK and AMC winter school courses and has lots of good info:
http://www.winterschool.org/WMS%20Student%20Handbook.pdf
Their courses are expensive these days, but excellent:
http://www.winterschool.org/program.html
Some of the Adirondack Mountain Club courses aren't too expensive:
http://www.adk.org/programs/programs.aspx
Feral Bill
12-13-2009, 15:41
Depending on the weather, (plenty of snow and no rain is nice) you could have excellent adventures in Harriman SP as preparation. It's near you and not much colder than the worst you might see see on your through.
The ADK course has around 30 pages of information on line that is very on target for Northeast winter conditions. If you take their class and practice skills in a more forgiving environment, you will greatly improve your chances of success on the LT. More important, you will improve your chances of living to tell about it.
Wolf - 23000
12-13-2009, 16:53
Hey Snowleopard,
It looks like you been doing some of your homework. I do hope you at least hike the LT once in the summer before attempting a winter sole trip and planning on what gear to take. It is a different ball game out there compare to anything you have done before. The Green Mountains I found to be much colder than the Adirondack Mountains where your planning on taking your classes. Once I got past MASS and into VT, It seem like a total different weather pattern of pure bitter COLDNESS. The mountains up there are not forgiving at all!!! I have a couple picture already posted when I did my winter hike of Maine/NH check them out.
I skimmed through some of what the classes MUST have equipment. Some of the stuff I could see you needing, others I would shy away from. Any kind of liquid used to put on your skin for example, I would suggest staying away from such as hand sanitizer, sunscreen or even second skin for blisters. The hand sanitizer and second skin would quickly become liquid ice crystals and the sunscreen would only get your face colder if it didn't freeze and do no good being underneath your face mask. Also having a metal spoon, could be a bit of a problem when it sticks inside your mouth.
Maps I would suggest carrying but not the once in the Long Trail book. You can use them as a guide but see about get more blown up maps to show the surrounding area. It doesn't have to be huge but something better than a skinny strip of where the trail is with little marking on what surrounding the area. If you do the Long Trail in the summer consider carrying a GPS and marking some of your locations ever couple of miles or so. It would make life a lot easier.
Wolf
XCskiNYC
12-13-2009, 17:48
....If you do the Long Trail in the summer consider carrying a GPS and marking some of your locations ever couple of miles or so. It would make life a lot easier.
Wolf
Just curious Wolf, you would not also suggest a GPS for winter? It seems with the trail snow covered and the problems you mentioned with blazes being snowed over that a GPS would be even more useful in winter than summer.
SL -- not to dissuade you from the winter LT hike idea, but here's another option that looks fun and it would give you a chance to work out your winter camping skills while avoiding the high rates at the quaint inn$ along the way:
http://www.catamounttrail.org/
Snowleopard
12-13-2009, 18:58
Hey Snowleopard,
It looks like you been doing some of your homework. I do hope you at least hike the LT once in the summer before attempting a winter sole trip and planning on what gear to take. It is a different ball game out there compare to anything you have done before. The Green Mountains I found to be much colder than the Adirondack Mountains where your planning on taking your classes. Once I got past MASS and into VT, It seem like a total different weather pattern of pure bitter COLDNESS. The mountains up there are not forgiving at all!!! I have a couple picture already posted when I did my winter hike of Maine/NH check them out.
I skimmed through some of what the classes MUST have equipment. Some of the stuff I could see you needing, others I would shy away from. Any kind of liquid used to put on your skin for example, I would suggest staying away from such as hand sanitizer, sunscreen or even second skin for blisters. The hand sanitizer and second skin would quickly become liquid ice crystals and the sunscreen would only get your face colder if it didn't freeze and do no good being underneath your face mask. Also having a metal spoon, could be a bit of a problem when it sticks inside your mouth.
...
Wolf
Wolf, don't forget there are two Leopards on this thread. I'm SnowL. and I'm about a half century older than ShelterL. ShelterL. is the one hoping to thru the LT in winter. I'm getting old to thru-hike the LT in winter and don't think I'd try it alone. I might try some sections of the LT or AT this winter (2 or 3 day hikes), if I can get my winter equipment in order.
A lot of my experience is pre-global warming, so I'm pretty familiar with cold.
The winter school lists are a good starting point, but I think it's possible to go much lighter. I took the winter mountaineering course a long time ago at Pinkham Notch and had a lot of fun in it.
GPS: I think this would be helpful in winter if you had some waypoints for the trail. I don't think anyone should rely on GPS; you need maps and compass.
Wolf - 23000
12-13-2009, 23:02
[quote=XCskiNYC;932635]Just curious Wolf, you would not also suggest a GPS for winter? It seems with the trail snow covered and the problems you mentioned with blazes being snowed over that a GPS would be even more useful in winter than summer. ]
XCskiNYC,
Just the reverse. I would suggest using a GPS first in the summer to get all the necessary points when the trail is really easy to follow. After all the points are stored they can be used while hiking the trail in the winter. A GPS has its limitations. It will give you your current location but you need to know where is the next point in order to help you route find.
I did something similar when I winter hiked Maine. I dropped off food catches at the road crossings and marked my spot with my GPS. It make the trip a lot easier. When your hiking in temperatures well below 0, the last thing you want to do is stop to figure out where the trail is.
Wolf
Wolf - 23000
12-13-2009, 23:22
Snowleopard,
Thank you for correcting me in confusing you with shelterleopard. I'm sure you do have a lot of experience in hiking in the COLD New England winter. I love to be out there myself too away from all this heat. It been a while sense I've did a real serious winter hike.
My idea with using a GPS to get the point, I guess I needed to explain a little bit more. My idea is hike the long trail first in the summer, record all the points to be used when hiking the trail in the winter.
As for the schools, they maybe of some help depending on the instructor and his/her experience. The problem I have with many schools is the instructors are book smart meaning they tell you do things one way strictly because the course requires them to do so or a book written 20 years ago said it was a good idea. Some of those ideas can do more harm than good.
Wolf
ShelterLeopard
12-14-2009, 11:24
I figured what you meant about the GPS Wolf (about entering the points while you can actually see them). My grandmother has been just dying to get me a GPS for oone of my long hikes, and I may actually let her for the LT.
Thank you all for your advice, it has been really helpful!
Honestly, who knows what this trip'll be? It may end up being a two week thing, maybe I'll go the whole way (but who knows how long that'll take!).
I really do love the snow and bitter cold- I do also understand how awful it can be to have cold feet, wet and frozen gear, no real way to dry and defrost everything, and all that. But, I'm not actually planning the actual trip or the gear right now, just starting to think about it. And you all have given me a lot to think about- thanks!
And I will most definitely be taking several winter survival classes.
Lone Wolf
12-14-2009, 11:28
i lived at the north end of the LT for 10 winters. brutal-ass weather up there. if you ain't got experience you shouldn't attempt this
Slo-go'en
12-14-2009, 12:42
I snowshoed up the LT to the summit of Jay Peak once. You should have seen the looks I got from the French-Canadian skiers up there where I had to cross thier trail to get to the top.
Speaking of which, there are a number of down hill ski areas you have to get past on the LT. Sometimes you just cross a ski trail, sometimes you have to follow along the trail for some distance before going back into the woods. Doing this when there is a lot of traffic on the ski trail could be like trying to cross an interstate at rush hour on foot!
There are a lot of nice places on the LT to go to in the winter, but I wouldn't try to thru-hike it! Couple of days is my limit.
stranger
12-18-2009, 02:25
I've spent alot of time in northern New York during winter, mainly the Catskills, which isn't nearly as cold as Vermont. All I would say is that if order to attempt something like this, you better get some experience prior to attempting anything like this.
You need to get out there and experience what -17 feels like (not counting wind chill), and what it's like to get outta your bag to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night.
You are also talking about looooonnnng nights, it will be dark early, it will be very cold early - you will spend more time in your bag then doing anything else.
Melting snow for water, frostbite, exposed skin, all major issues. Ever spill white gas on exposed skin in 10 below? I have - instant frostbite, not fun!
Vapor Barrier liners to keep down from freezing, or carry heavy synthetics, heaps of fuel, heavy loads, frozen water and food, it's a tough, tough experience. It's also one of the most rewarding.
It's one thing to like the cold, it's quite another to live in it, patch blisters in it, cook and clean in it, break down a tent in it... it's rough.
I grew up in northern Vermont I remember one winter going on an overnight. Spent the night warm and cozy packed up in the morning and ten minutes later fell into a spruce hole. Took two hours to dig myself out another hour to get dry, warm and repacked, 15 minutes later fell into another. 5 hours of travel time total progress about 200 yards.
What I'm saying is, winter conditions on the LT are total bitch even when you are well equipped, grew up in the environment and know exactly what you are doing.
Buy rescue insurance and don't say we didn't warn ya.
If you pull it off the bragging rights will be epic...
mark schofield
12-18-2009, 08:33
today's weather in northern VT
http://weather.yahoo.com/united-states/vermont/johnson-2429508/
today's weather in northern VT
http://weather.yahoo.com/united-states/vermont/johnson-2429508/
We are getting freezing rain right now and I fogot to turn the heat up last night so It feels about 1 degrees in my house right now. It's going to be a long winter. I can't imagine being in VT right now. What's the temp like in April?
ShelterLeopard
12-18-2009, 11:18
I think April (if I remember correctly, I'm only ever there in fall and winter, sometimes spring) is still chilly, but is the lead in time to mud season.
I figure, I'll just do a short section in VT to get myself acclimatized (and make it really easy to bail if anything goes wrong, take all the precautions, etc...), then start at the beginning, and hike as if I was doing sections (again, making it slightly easier to bail), and just hopefully keep going.
ShelterLeopard
12-18-2009, 11:27
Aside from all the survival classes... By the way, any suggestions apart from Tom Brown (who is great for tracking and surviving in an emergency, but not sure about actually teaching how to live in the cold), NOLS and AMC classes would be great.
Aside from all the survival classes... By the way, any suggestions apart from Tom Brown (who is great for tracking and surviving in an emergency, but not sure about actually teaching how to live in the cold), NOLS and AMC classes would be great.
If you take a NOLS Spring Semester in the Rockies, you'll start off with the "Winter" portion, often referred to by instructors as the "Learn not to die" segment. It might be useful for such a trek. But understand that mileage on such a course would be tiny compared to the length of the AT.
There are also NOLS winter trekking courses, particularly with the Teton Valley out of Driggs, Idaho. More technical stuff in these, like learning to telemark or at least cross-country ski, rather than just wandering on snowshoes. Much shorter (and cheaper) than a semester.
It will also qualify you for college credits.
I skimmed over the other responses, so sorry if I am repeating anything.
I would love to do this, but I can imagine it will be a huge challenge (fun, yes, but also very difficult). I think enough people mentioned how deep the snow will likely be. There are a few sections that might be close to ice climbing if it doesn't fully require ice climbing gear (I am thinking Mansfield and Camel's Hump in particular). I think another big challenge is that there is a decent section in the Breadloaf wilderness with very minimal blazing. It was easy enough to follow it in the fall, but that was without snow cover.
One advantage is that the northern half of a trail has a large number of 4-walled shelters.
I will likely do an overnight snowshoeing trip on the trail between XMas and New Years since I'll be in the area. I'll let you know how that goes.
ShelterLeopard
12-18-2009, 17:52
Definitely let me know!!!
canoehead
12-18-2009, 20:46
ShelterLeopard (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?u=22912)
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I got out last night for a quick overnight on the LT/AT. Rt 11 by Bromley south to Spruce Peak Shelter and back. I had snowshoes, but even with them my pace dropped significantly. There was about 2-4 feet of snow in most places and the temps ranged from 10-15 degrees with flurries most of the time. It looked like someone had gone through maybe this past weekend, so most of the time it wasn't too bad to follow the trail. But, there were a few areas where the tracks disappeared and it became a game of "Where's Waldo?" with the blazes and required a bit of backtracking (white blazes on snow covered trees aren't the easiest things to spot). Snowshoeing is a lot of work, and this was the tamer part of the trail. Getting out was a lot easier though as I had already packed down the trail coming in. Also, not much daylight (it was getting dark in the woods by about 4:30). But, it was really neat to be out there with snow covering everything. It was very quiet and peaceful (the only other living things I saw were 2 birds).
ShelterLeopard
01-06-2010, 17:13
Sounds awesome Hobbot- can you remind me to ask you more about it on the shakedown?
RememberYourZen
01-09-2010, 22:36
ShelterLeopard,
Where to start? First, to answer your question about how much snow was on the trail, when I winter hike the Long Trail I saw between 3 - 5 feet on snow normally. While on the trail, almost no one backpacks out there. I've seen 2 couple that were both out for the a overnight, 1 that sent the whole night freezing their butts the whole night.
A little bit about me. I've hiked the PCT * 3 times, the AT * 5 - including a winter section hike entire AT, 5 hikes of the Long Trail - including a winter hike, 4 hikes of the JMT and the COT. In total, I've hiked around 24,000 miles - 8,000 miles done in the winter, about 1,500 miles have been done in New England. I'm not saying this to brag but only to point that I am a very experience backpacker.
Winter hiking the Long Trail is not to take something to take lightly. Hiking in the snow on the ground is only one of several issues you would have to deal with. Some of the other issues are going to include:
Route finding - As you I'm sure you are aware, the LT is marked with white blazes. The same color as the snow press up on the trees. The trail is also not maintain, meaning some of the mark trees maybe on the ground under several feet of snow.
Water. This is going to be the big one. There was only one place I found flowing water. Normal I had to melt snow/ice three times a day. Once in the morning, in the afternoon and in the evening. You will need to stop to make water. If you try make enough water in the morning for the whole day, it will end up re-freezing or take away heat from your body.
Snow on the trees. The Long Trail has a lot of pine trees that will be cover with snow. That may not sound like big of a deal but when you constantly have snow fall down on top of you and then freezing, it can make things interesting.
I could go on but simple put hiking the winter hiking the Long Trail is A LOT harder than winter hiking PA or the southern Appalachian.
Hopes this helps,
Wolf
you my friend, are a bad ass.
NorthCountryWoods
01-22-2010, 22:00
Just got back from my yearly winter week on the northern long trail and it was warmer than usual. Days were in the 20s-30s and nights in the teens. Snow ranged from a trace on the southern slopes to 4 feet+ in the shade. Tonight it's going to be 5-10 below zero, but I'm home in front of the wood stove.
The biggest problem for winter long trail E2E is route finding and speed. It's VERY slow, no matter what kinda shape you're in. The blazes are useless and there are snowshoe tracks in all directions near the roads and none at all once you get far enough in. The idea of doing it in summer with GPS and marking the waypoints is a good idea....just mark waypoints twice as often as you think you should.
There can be issues with crossing the ski slopes as well. Jay Peak doesn't really care, but not sure about ones to the south. I've heard some won't let you cross the slopes, but no personal experience.
I've done Camels hump and Mansfield in winter and they become an expedition in themselves. Crampons are a must and a rope and ice axe wouldn't be overkill and could be an absolute necessity during the right conditions.
Good luck.