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slatchley
09-01-2004, 06:46
Its gotten to the point where I can pretty much ignore WhiteBlaze. Every thread seems to head into a totally wortghless political discussion. Can't someone just delete this baloney? This is meant to be a hiking forum, but it seems to have bee hijacked by a few radicals. I am taking a break uyntil the election ends. What a shame to lose a (formerly) good site like this.

Jaybird
09-01-2004, 07:18
just turn your computer "B-S filter" on...& keep coming back! ;)

Blue Jay
09-01-2004, 07:36
Its gotten to the point where I can pretty much ignore WhiteBlaze. Every thread seems to head into a totally wortghless political discussion. Can't someone just delete this baloney? This is meant to be a hiking forum, but it seems to have bee hijacked by a few radicals. I am taking a break uyntil the election ends. What a shame to lose a (formerly) good site like this.

I swear I remember you posting about the Clean Air Act. Can you say hypocrisy?

shades of blue
09-01-2004, 07:41
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5385 this is the page his post is on.
Maybe what he meant is the level of name calling lack of civil discussion at times.....but you're right,it is slightly hypocritical.

orangebug
09-01-2004, 07:54
The progressive lack of civility is a major danger for this list. AT-L is a good example of what can occur to a list with unbridled partisanship.

It is signficant that the WF bashing thread has morphed into bashing fellow hikers based on religion and politics.

Bill....

Dances with Mice
09-01-2004, 08:16
The progressive lack of civility is a major danger for this list. AT-L is a good example of what can occur to a list with unbridled partisanship.

Same clowns. Same acts. Different circus, that's all.

SGT Rock
09-01-2004, 08:29
I tend to agree here. I really don't mind y'all discussing politics if it sticks to the threads where is belongs so people can just ignore those threads. But if someone is posting something about stoves and mentions the fact that an alcohol stove might just help reduce the dependence of the US on fossil fuels, then someone else on the board will feel it necessary to "defend against" or "debate" this "obvious fallacy" on the thread instead of keeping on topic which is stoves - not Bush drilling for oil, or Kerry starting a commune to make ethanol, or whatever. I don't mind a topic getting a little off every once in a while, but it is getting ridiculous that if people disagree about whiteblazing they get called liberal that makes the rules up as they go, or if they disagree about blue blazing they get called an anal retentive conservative. We are allowing the crap tactics of the political world to encroach onto a board that was designed to talk about hiking the AT. Personally I despise crap politics.

SGT Rock
09-01-2004, 08:54
I have an idea. A long time ago we wanted to keep this forum mostly self policing. The idea was about like how things operate around the camp at a shelter or hostel or something. People can sometimes disagree about things without elevating things to a flame war, and things here could be about the same way. We can let someone know they are being impolite with the informal norms of any group without having to be mean spirited about it, and such peer pressure correction can be done in good fun. :banana

So some proposed ideas:

1. If you are reading an someone starts to go political on a thread that ain't political, call "shenanigans" on them to humorously let them know they are going off to the realm where most don't want to hear it. :-?

2. If you want to start a thread about politics - put something like this for the thread title: "Kerry fathered Alien Baby - warning, contains political discussion, enter at your own risk" :jump

3. The start post of all threads should have a disclaimer :bse

"This thread main contain political material that may piss you off. If someone pisses you off on this thread, please leave it on this thread. We don't want to hear about it somewhere else" :welcome

4. Violation of these rules will result in the offender being required to carry a one pound or greater stone in their pack on the next hike. Multiple offenses mean multiple stones. Honor system is enacted. :sun

max patch
09-01-2004, 08:55
The progressive lack of civility is a major danger for this list. AT-L is a good example of what can occur to a list with unbridled partisanship.

It is signficant that the WF bashing thread has morphed into bashing fellow hikers based on religion and politics.

Bill....

Look in the mirror. You are one of the people that ruined AT-L!!!

grrickar
09-01-2004, 09:23
I agree. Maybe there is another forum created for discussions that take a wrong turn, and they get moved there so the people who initiated them can take it there and argue about it. There are plenty of hiking related issues we can disagree on without jumping into religion or politics.

MOWGLI
09-01-2004, 09:24
Look in the mirror. You are one of the people that ruined AT-L!!!

What I found distasteful about AT-L was the myriad off-topic posts, and the cliques that were virtually inpenetrable. I think we're starting to see some of that here. Perhaps it'll subside after the election.

Blue Jay
09-01-2004, 09:45
I agree. Maybe there is another forum created for discussions that take a wrong turn, and they get moved there so the people who initiated them can take it there and argue about it. There are plenty of hiking related issues we can disagree on without jumping into religion or politics.

Yes, yet one more discussion of the merits of the various stove fuels is infinitely more interesting.

grrickar
09-01-2004, 09:47
Yes, yet one more discussion of the merits of the various stove fuels is infinitely more interesting.
As far as stove fuel is concerned: Liquid oxygen rules!! I'm ready to cook in .000003 seconds. Trouble is I keep melting my titanium cookset. Hmmmm... maybe I'll try Lodge cast iron instead...:jump

Alligator
09-01-2004, 09:58
An off-topic forum would be better than just stating in the first post "contains politics beware". When two guys start to go at it in a bar but no one wants to really prevent it, the typical response is to take it outside. That way everyone else can drink in peace.

I once saw that this site had moderators (other than Attroll and Sgt. Rock). Yet I have never seen one of them move a post. If a thread gets too off-topic split it into the off-topic forum with a link to the old thread as the first post. Continuity is maintained and no one should complain that their off-topic post got relocated.

tlbj6142
09-01-2004, 10:00
This will all go away in 6 months. Its just an election year thing. Happens on every board I read before a presidential election.

tlbj6142
09-01-2004, 10:03
cliques that were virtually inpenetrable.There are cliques on Whiteblaze? Damn it, can I be in one?

There are not cliques, there are just a handful of people that post all the time. Heck we have 2000+ members but only 30 post in any one month. Just like every other board on the 'net.

tlbj6142
09-01-2004, 10:10
What a shame to lose a (formerly) good site like this.IMO, the board is actually better than it use to be. At least Easyhiker doesn't show up drunk at 3am and post 200 new threads that mean abosulely nothing.

Name calling, politices, etc. are a fact of life. Just ignore it. If it bothers you that much, you are the one with the "problem" (too high strung?), not the trouble maker.

With a mouse and a keyboard, you can skip past bogus entires in milliseconds. Why get worked up about something that costs you a millisecond of your life? It takes longer to bitch about an user, thread, comment than it does to actually ignore it.

Apathy rules!

tlbj6142
09-01-2004, 10:13
One more thing...

You have to remember there is only so much you can talk about WRT the AT, thru-hiking, etc. At some point folks just get bored with the subject. So, they start up something off topic with their online "friends". And, that, is OK.

eyahiker
09-01-2004, 12:18
tljb....I think you're right.

Well said. It is easy to get off topic, I am guilty of this in a big way when certain things are brought up. I get jumped on all the time for what I believe her, and I dish it out as well. Part of the posting that keeps you coming back.

Sgt Rock has a great idea!

The moderators here probably have their hands full without every thread turning political this time of year........it is certainly on peoples minds currently. So maybe a "in the news" heading or something........that way all of us can get it all out, discuss it, hash it whatever without destroying a perfectly good thread about which socks fit the snuggest.

Fall is coming, and only a few months of decent non-winter hiking left. And many are anxious for spring to come already, easy to write about other stuff. If it were February...........I doubt there'd be much political discussion.

All you guys are really great. As much as I disagree with certain folks, I think I agree just as much, and learn even more. I should probably reply to the things I agree with as much as I bitch about the things I don't!:clap

nthadley
09-06-2004, 02:27
...And where would you find liquid oxygen? Got a breathing problem?? :-?

Lone Wolf
09-06-2004, 11:32
Anti-Kerry rally 12 Sept. in D.C. at the Capitol building. Go to www.kerrylied.com for more info. Bring your metal detectors to find Kerry's. :D

bfitz
09-06-2004, 16:57
Some people love to hyper-analyze, and debate. For me, if there isn't a good multi-sided debate going on I get bored and have to start one. Certain relatives of mine are very careful about what they bring up at the dinner table for this reason. Afetr the election, we can all go back to other hot topics like religion and yellow-blazing.

Lone Wolf
09-06-2004, 17:01
Questions for liberals www.americandaily.com/article/2181

TJ aka Teej
09-06-2004, 21:27
Politics built the Appalachian Trail, politics keeps the Appalachian Trail alive, and politics will decide whether or not the Appalachian Trail will survive. Like it or not, admit it or not, there's much more to our Trail than backpack brands and boot tying lessons.
For information about some of the politics effecting the Appalachian Trail:
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/trailnews/index.html

Rock my pack if you must,
TJ

weary
09-06-2004, 22:16
The progressive lack of civility is a major danger for this list. AT-L is a good example of what can occur to a list with unbridled partisanship.
It is signficant that the WF bashing thread has morphed into bashing fellow hikers based on religion and politics.
Bill....

Hmmm. I've been puzzled about that change myself. OB. You who know the human mind so well, perhaps can enlighten us.

But I sense that Wingfoot has declined into one of the lesser Gods.

As for AT-L the problem was not the occasional mention of politics, but those "old timers" on the list who became so outraged at any good word about our much-maligned Wingfoot. I tried to deflect the bitterness a bit by casting out an alternative villian -- announcing somewhat facetiously that I was a liberal. One would have had to have been there to appreciate the bitterness that announcement generated.

I tend to think it wasn't partisanship, but a fundamentally disfunctional site, since WhiteBlaze seems to have survived and prospered. In honesty though, I think WhiteBlaze has an inherent filtering process. A thread must attract one or it is not even opened.

On AT-L every response is there for one to see, tempting one to open and become angry, happy, or what not.

Weary

Blue Jay
09-07-2004, 07:27
Questions for liberals www.americandaily.com/article/2181

Question for conservatives. Why don't you have a candidate in this year's Presidential Race? For example, Bush and Kerry have almost the exact same voting record on Medicare and Medicade. They both adore spending, they both adore direct and total manipulation of American lives. What happened to you conservatives, why did you become socialists?

weary
09-07-2004, 08:37
Question for conservatives. Why don't you have a candidate in this year's Presidential Race? For example, Bush and Kerry have almost the exact same voting record on Medicare and Medicade. They both adore spending, they both adore direct and total manipulation of American lives. What happened to you conservatives, why did you become socialists?

Easy question. Easy answer. Conservatives simply gave up thinking in favor of slogans and still have not noticed that the slogans have changed from championing human independence to championing control of human lives.

However, I disagree with Blue Jay's analysis. There is quite a bit of separation between Bush and Kerry on the environment, on national defense, on paying our national bills, and on spending priorities.

Weary

weary
09-07-2004, 08:42
Politics built the Appalachian Trail, politics keeps the Appalachian Trail alive, and politics will decide whether or not the Appalachian Trail will survive. Like it or not, admit it or not, there's much more to our Trail than backpack brands and boot tying lessons.
For information about some of the politics effecting the Appalachian Trail:
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/trailnews/index.html
TJ

TJ, of course, is absolutely right. His message should printed out and displayed prominently in the homes and near the computers of all who love trails and the outdoors.

Weary

Toolshed
09-07-2004, 09:08
Remember "Give a thousand monkeys a thousand typewriters and eventually the will reproduce the entire works of shakespeare". Browsing the internet allows one to see that this could never, EVER happen..

Lion King
09-07-2004, 10:12
Bush to log 100 plus miles of the AT...

Lone Wolf
09-07-2004, 10:44
Bush/Cheney 04 campaign stuff @ www.georgewbushstore.com My order arrives today.

weary
09-07-2004, 11:08
Questions for liberals www.americandaily.com/article/2181

Be extremely careful if you open this site. I got a half dozen popups all warning me that I had a virus. I suspect that most of them were viruses trying to get you to download them.

I spent most of the weekend getting rid of viruses that came from similar popups. Aside from the virus danger, the message mostly is a bunch of cliches and/or lies about liberals.

Weary

Lone Wolf
09-07-2004, 11:14
Sure weary. :banana

SavageLlama
09-07-2004, 12:21
Be extremely careful if you open this site.
Weary
Don't worry.. I know better than to click on the links to conservative rhetoric that Lone Wolf posts.

Lone Wolf
09-07-2004, 12:23
Sure Llama. :banana

Lone Wolf
09-07-2004, 15:43
The Zell factor: spoke truth to Republicans, hurt Democrats.
www.townhall.com/columnists/kathleenparker/kp20040904.shtml

Needles
09-07-2004, 17:01
The Zell factor: spoke truth to Republicans, hurt Democrats.
www.townhall.com/columnists/kathleenparker/kp20040904.shtml

Zell did speak facts, but I don't know about the truth, I mean we all know how angry he is at Kerry for calling our men and women in Iraq "occupiers" but he never mentioned how angry he was at George W. Bush for calling them the exact same thing, at least 4 times. We know that he is upset with Kerry for his voting record on certain defense systems but Zell never mentioned what he thought of Dick Cheney agreeing with Kerry on some of those votes when Cheney was Secretary of Defense under the first Bush presidency. Also Zell doesn't like the way that Kerry has voted on certain military appropriations bills, fair enough, but sometimes our representatives vote against these bills because of specific parts of the bills, not because they didn't want to see any money go to military spending. It would be like a democrat saying that a republican represenative wanted to make poor kids in the US starve to death because the republican didn't vote for an appropriations bill sponsered by Clinton when he was president.

More info on Zell's speech if you are interested,
http://slate.com/id/2106119/

Don't take me wrong Wolf, I am not typing this in support of Kerry, I don't like him any more than you do, I also don't care for Bush at all, my biggest problem with this election is that neither one of them is worth voting for because they are just a like. My second biggest problem is that both the democrats and republicans are spending all of their time lying and telling half truths instead of addressing any issues. The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth have made a big name for themselves by saying things that can't be easily substantiated and recently they have started using video of Kerry himself saying things they know will hurt him, sure they took it out of context, but hey, Kerry still said it! Sounds to me like these veterans have been taking lessons from Michael Moore.

I am sick and tired of having to decide between the "lesser of 2 evils" every four years, damnit we as Americans deserve a choice between 2 decent and qualified candidates. Instead we get 2 candidates trying to out half truth the other one and trying to avoid ever talking about the real issues that effect most of us. I want the politcal parties to stop this, I want the political groups to stop this (sorry I have been hearing that we are going to run out of oil in the next ten years ever since I can remember, that's about 30 years and so, even with growing demands for oil, we haven't run out and are infact pumping more of it out of the ground than we ever have before. Makes it tough for me to believe that the gas pumps are going to run dry any time soon, but not any harder than it is to believe that our society will cease to function if 2 men say "I do" to each other and start being able to file their income taxes jointly) and I won't do anything to support either one of these jerks until they actually say what they are going to do if they get elected.

Tractor
09-07-2004, 18:14
...is a retired actor, with a strong stage presence and voice that gives most of us a very high comfort level. One that can feed us dirt and we'd like it and want more. One that has a strong/inteligent core of adivisors and staff. Political party really doesn't matter. I might even vote for Robert Duvall? The rest of the world would surely get a kick out of it........

On the oil thing, what takes it's place once it's pumped out of the ground? If it's water, then how come the sea level haven't dropped?

weary
09-07-2004, 18:33
...is a retired actor, with a strong stage presence and voice that gives most of us a very high comfort level. One that can feed us dirt and we'd like it and want more. One that has a strong/inteligent core of adivisors and staff. Political party really doesn't matter. I might even vote for Robert Duvall? The rest of the world would surely get a kick out of it........

On the oil thing, what takes it's place once it's pumped out of the ground? If it's water, then how come the sea level haven't dropped?

Ah, Tractor, Many of us have the same dreams, yeah. Even the same cynicism. But what we really need is an informed and INTERESTED electorate. Most of us get too bored, too quickly. If we could stick around long enough to understand, we would understand. For the first time in human history it is possible for most humans -- at least in the industrialized nations -- to find the truth. What we currently lack is the will to do so.

Weary

Tractor
09-07-2004, 19:18
But Weary, how can we get there? "interests" no longer include knowledge of current events except for the spin we choose to believe. It's sad all around.......again.

frankcornbread
09-07-2004, 20:19
The Zell factor: spoke truth to Republicans, hurt Democrats.
www.townhall.com/columnists/kathleenparker/kp20040904.shtml

It's only TRUTH to Republicans. It was something less to the rest of us.

FC

Coosa
09-07-2004, 22:35
[B] Weary and others: Download http://www.grisoft.com/us/us_index.php for AVG Anti-Virus Grisoft. You can allow or block pop-ups. And for home use, it's FREE.

Yers for a happier camper come the day after elections in November. We can hope.

Coosa
Neither Left nor Right, I stick to the White Blazed Path.

SavageLlama
09-08-2004, 17:41
"President Bush fell short of meeting his military obligations during the Vietnam War and was not disciplined despite irregular attendance at required training drills"

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040908/ts_nm/campaign_bush_vietnam_dc_3

bearbait2k4
09-08-2004, 17:58
Seriously...is there a HUGE difference between republicans and democrats these days?

All of you know that we're voting for the lesser of the 2 evils here. Nothing that will truly benefit all of us is going to happen in our government anytime soon, and talking about it here won't change that.

If you really want to see a change, then start supporting third parties in your local community and state that actually stand for what you believe in. Then, we'll at least be able to force the 2 major parties to start doing something productive.

boulder
09-09-2004, 06:08
Generally, bearbait, you are correct. As far as a political spectrum goes, the dems. and reps. are very close to one another and have ideas/values that overlap. Sadly, third parties have a difficult time b/c of the money behind the two parties and the way those parties control state and local election laws. Having said that, who could have predicted the damage one admin. could do in only 4 years. From a huge surplus to the biggest debt in the country's history, from respect and sympathy (post 9/11) around the world, to alienation and distrust, and even fury, this admin. has damaged the country for many years to come. Could a dem. admin. have done this much damage, maybe, but at least under Clinton, the dems. balanced the budget and despite some very bad foreign poliy decision, Rwanda, for example, we were respected and liked in the world (not by terrorists clearly, but certainly by most). Being a supporter of neither party, I too look to third parties, but am not too hopeful given the difficulty they have getting on the ballet. It is a strange democracy we have . . .

ripple
09-09-2004, 07:37
" but at least under Clinton, the dems. balanced the budget and despite some very bad foreign poliy decision, Rwanda, for example, we were respected and liked in the world (not by terrorists clearly, but certainly by most"

B.S.

Al Queda, Iraq, Yemmen, Somolia etc etc respected us and liked us under the clinton years. North Korea repected us so much they lied and continued making their nuke and missles and then selling the stuff too...... Balanced budget had more to do with Bill Gates w/ our little tec bubble economy that happen to bust just as Clinton was leaving office. Don't give credit where it is not due.

Blue Jay
09-09-2004, 07:52
" but at least under Clinton, the dems. balanced the budget and despite some very bad foreign poliy decision, Rwanda, for example, we were respected and liked in the world (not by terrorists clearly, but certainly by most"

B.S.

Al Queda, Iraq, Yemmen, Somolia etc etc respected us and liked us under the clinton years. North Korea repected us so much they lied and continued making their nuke and missles and then selling the stuff too...... Balanced budget had more to do with Bill Gates w/ our little tec bubble economy that happen to bust just as Clinton was leaving office. Don't give credit where it is not due.

Yet another reason to dump Bush. He did nothing against North Korea, an actual threat to us, in fact he is pulling back troops. I'm not saying I think he is wrong in this action. It's just the massive hypocracy of our attacking a relative harmless country.

weary
09-09-2004, 09:50
Seriously...is there a HUGE difference between republicans and democrats these days?

All of you know that we're voting for the lesser of the 2 evils here. Nothing that will truly benefit all of us is going to happen in our government anytime soon, and talking about it here won't change that.

If you really want to see a change, then start supporting third parties in your local community and state that actually stand for what you believe in. Then, we'll at least be able to force the 2 major parties to start doing something productive.

Actually, there is a huge difference between the parties and the division is growing wider. Perfection is not to be achieved by humans, but Democrats are willing to allow abortions, Republicans are not. Though his record was not as strong as I would have liked, Democrats under Clinton improved the American environment. It has deteriorated under Bush.

Democrats recognize that allies are critical in this world. Bush thumbed his nose at them.

With millions of acres of Maine woodlands on the market and being eyed by developers, Democrats voted almost unanimously in the Legislature to pass a public lands bond issue. Republicans were almost unanimously opposed.

Of course there is overlap. But on the critical issues the party differences are enormous. Only those who haven't been paying attention think otherwise.

Weary

Chappy
09-09-2004, 09:56
Perfection is not to be achieved by humans, but Democrats are willing to allow abortions, Republicans are not.Weary

Weary, you're a real charmer! So now you favor abortion as a means of achieving perfection. I'm telling you man, you need to meove away from the computer and go out and save some more trees.

Tim Rich
09-09-2004, 10:46
Perfection is not to be achieved by humans, but Democrats are willing to allow abortions, Republicans are not.

Weary

Perfection achieved = abortions? You may want to stick to the environment and your gumshoe reporter exploits of decades gone by, Weary...

Lone Wolf
09-09-2004, 10:50
Maybe YOU shoulda been aborted, eh weary?

smokymtnsteve
09-09-2004, 11:34
Pro-Choice is Pro-American

Anti-Choice is Anti-American!

Let FREEDOM Reign!

ripple
09-09-2004, 11:36
Choice was to have sex ore not. that is when the choice should end. No choice in killing babies

smokymtnsteve
09-09-2004, 11:43
Choice was to have sex ore not. that is when the choice should end. No choice in killing babies


Why do you Hate Freedom so much?

No one will make you kill a baby.

Pro-choice is Pro-American!

ripple
09-09-2004, 12:00
"Why do you Hate Freedom so much?

No one will make you kill a baby.

Pro-choice is Pro-American!"


What a crappy reply. Then it is freedom to kill you want, hey that is great man. Really. So killing babies is ok b/c it is part of freedom,.... well then there are a lot of adults (not innocent babies) that should be wacked also. Maybe have thier skulls crushed and vaccummed out. And that is OK b/c no one is going to make You kill someone.

smokymtnsteve
09-09-2004, 12:05
killing babies is against the law in America.

Why do you HATE Freedom so much?


you have to eithier be for FREEDOM or against it.

Why are you against freedom?

Lone Wolf
09-09-2004, 12:07
I bet your glad your mother didn't CHOOSE to abort your silly ass, huh Steve? You wouldn't be able to smoke pot, hike or have a son to visit in Alaska. :banana

smokymtnsteve
09-09-2004, 12:15
just back from AK...course you can't smoke pot legally in the USA...


http://www.alaskahemp.org/index.htm

I was working in AK....maybe moving there next spring!

LET FREEDOM REIGN~!



if my mom had aborted me as a fetus..then I wouldn't exsist nor would I care..

Pro-choice is Pro-American!

ripple
09-09-2004, 12:41
Steve, I was going to reply w/ stats and studies on when brains develop etc etc but your reply just make you look like a fool.

Implying I hate freedom, b/c I believe in freedom for the unborn.

Why do you support killing? Why do you hate life so much? Hey if you want it leagl to kill something why not everything, why just the unborn.

smokymtnsteve
09-09-2004, 12:49
PRO-CHOICE IS PRO-AMERICAN!

LET FREEDOM REIGN!

ANTI-CHOICE IS ANTI-AMERICAN!

Why do you HATE America and FREEDOM so much?

ripple
09-09-2004, 12:56
Again what is up w/ your crappy replies. You already stated that. So now I will keep asking the same questions. Why do you hate life so much?

Lone Wolf
09-09-2004, 12:56
Ripple, there's no reasoning with a liberal doper. His life is consumed by pot. He'll never get it.

Needles
09-09-2004, 13:02
Steve, I was going to reply w/ stats and studies on when brains develop etc etc but your reply just make you look like a fool.

Implying I hate freedom, b/c I believe in freedom for the unborn.

Why do you support killing? Why do you hate life so much? Hey if you want it leagl to kill something why not everything, why just the unborn.

Why does everyone want to force things to be black and white when it is blatently obvious that most things are actually quite grey? I think abortion is horrible, wish it would never happen again, but I also know that it is going to happen no matter what kind of laws we have in place. It used to be a crime but that certainly didn't stop people from getting abortions so why does anyone think that outlawing abortions now would make them go away?
So while I despise taking the destruction of what I believe *COULD* become a human being I don't feel that it is up to me to tell a woman that having an abortion, when no matter what I say she is probably going to have one anyway, is murder and should be forced underground so that the likelyhood of 2 deaths occuring instead of 1 is increased.
I also have NO problems with an abortion taking place if the mother's life is at risk. So many anti-abortionists (please don't call yourself pro-life, if you were pro-life you would be out trying to feed the hungry and working to prevent or bring an end to war and disease) seem to value the life of a fetus more than the life of the mother, that to me makes about as much sense as the PETA idiots who think that testing new medications on animals is wrong because they obviously consider the lives of animals more valuable than the lives of humans (except for the cows that died for their shoes or the bugs they step on when they come into their homes). Yes I know, a human fetus IS human life, but it isn't yet human.
So, I deplore the killing of a fetus just because someone got pregnant when it wasn't convienient, but I am at the same time very much pro-choice, it is up to the woman to decide what she has to do, not me. Besides, in the Bible I read Jesus said "judge not lest ye be judged". I will let God deal with the women who have abortions in the way that he considers best. I know he will do a better job of it than I, or anyone else down here, ever could.

smokymtnsteve
09-09-2004, 13:28
I agree making abortion illegal and forcing it underground and onto the black market would increase deaths of women and cause even more physical and emotional harm, along with increases of Infections.

Keep abortion legal clean and safe....prohibitions don't work.

LET FREEDOM REIGN!

bearbait2k4
09-09-2004, 15:28
Actually, there is a huge difference between the parties and the division is growing wider.

Weary
I disagree, weary.

The political line between the 2 parties are, in effect, getting more blurred every single year.

The Clinton administration did absolutely NOTHING for our environment for almost 8 years. Finally, when Clinton realized he was going to be leaving office with little accomplishments for protecting our environment, he decided to get to work. He helped pass numerous bills and laws, most of which wouldn't even begin to take place until 2004 (arsenic levels), or 2010 (emissions standards). Yes, wouldn't even BEGIN to take place. Essentially, his record for the environment is about the same as Bush's, presently, because neither one of them did anything to help the environment for their first terms. Of course, now we have open drilling in Alaska....a bill that was passed, basically, with the help of the Democrats in the senate. When 34 Republicans decided to vote against this bill, 36 Democrats picked up the slack and voted for it, thus allowing it to pass.

The Clinton administration got women voters on their side by stating that they were pro-choice...and that made women's groups happy. However, this administration cut international funding for services that provided abortions, or even mentioned abortion as a viable alternative. This administration also allowed Federal funding for faith-based groups, many of those groups that are pushing so hard, and are being heard (hey - they have the money to be heard more loudly) by the current administration. The big difference with the Bush administration is that they don't tap-dance around the issue, they just come out and say it.

I happen to believe that those who pay attention to the details can see this pretty clearly. There is very little that this Administration can do that doesn't first have to be cleared with the Cabinet (almost unanimously approved by the Democratic Senators) and/or Congress. The Senate is pretty much dead even with the D/R ratio, and it's all being passed; it's all being approved.

There is little to no difference these days, and the division is getting weaker.

bearbait2k4
09-09-2004, 15:32
I sometimes wonder if abortion would even be an issue if men bore the responsibility of carrying and giving birth to a child...

smokymtnsteve
09-09-2004, 16:23
I sometimes wonder if abortion would even be an issue if men bore the responsibility of carrying and giving birth to a child...


of course it wouldn't be an issue...we would "fix" the 'problem'.

weary
09-09-2004, 22:47
I disagree, weary.

The political line between the 2 parties are, in effect, getting more blurred every single year.

The Clinton administration did absolutely NOTHING for our environment for almost 8 years. Finally, when Clinton realized he was going to be leaving office with little accomplishments for protecting our environment, he decided to get to work. He helped pass numerous bills and laws, most of which wouldn't even begin to take place until 2004 (arsenic levels), or 2010 (emissions standards). Yes, wouldn't even BEGIN to take place. Essentially, his record for the environment is about the same as Bush's, presently, because neither one of them did anything to help the environment for their first terms. Of course, now we have open drilling in Alaska....a bill that was passed, basically, with the help of the Democrats in the senate. When 34 Republicans decided to vote against this bill, 36 Democrats picked up the slack and voted for it, thus allowing it to pass.

The Clinton administration got women voters on their side by stating that they were pro-choice...and that made women's groups happy. However, this administration cut international funding for services that provided abortions, or even mentioned abortion as a viable alternative. This administration also allowed Federal funding for faith-based groups, many of those groups that are pushing so hard, and are being heard (hey - they have the money to be heard more loudly) by the current administration. The big difference with the Bush administration is that they don't tap-dance around the issue, they just come out and say it.

I happen to believe that those who pay attention to the details can see this pretty clearly. There is very little that this Administration can do that doesn't first have to be cleared with the Cabinet (almost unanimously approved by the Democratic Senators) and/or Congress. The Senate is pretty much dead even with the D/R ratio, and it's all being passed; it's all being approved.

There is little to no difference these days, and the division is getting weaker.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but this is blatant nonsense. I spent 40 years of my life involved day after day with environmental matters. No administration in my memory has done all that should be done for environmental protection. But if there is a comparison greater than black and white, it would more accurately describe the difference between Clinton's environmental record and Bushes environmental record.

Clinton was pretty good. Bush is a disaster.

Weary

bearbait2k4
09-10-2004, 00:08
Weary, with everything I've said, I still think my previous statements are pretty correct.

My above post was also based on fact...so, believe what you want, it still doesn't change facts.

JP
09-10-2004, 12:44
Try soaking your food and eating it uncooked. If its dehydrated it was cooked already anyway. You can do this with a lot of foods. As for politics and religion; thats one of the reasons I hike solo.

eyahiker
09-10-2004, 22:20
Why does everyone want to force things to be black and white when it is blatently obvious that most things are actually quite grey? You are wrong.

Things ARE black and white, any hiker or someone who spends time in "nature" should know this by now.

Absolutes rule your life, wake up.


I agree making abortion illegal and forcing it underground and onto the black market would increase deaths of women and cause even more physical and emotional harm, along with increases of Infections.

Too bad. Survival of the fittest, and the smartest - not murderers of their own offspring.

weary
09-11-2004, 00:15
....I happen to believe that those who pay attention to the details can see this pretty clearly. There is very little that this Administration can do that doesn't first have to be cleared with the Cabinet (almost unanimously approved by the Democratic Senators) and/or Congress. The Senate is pretty much dead even with the D/R ratio, and it's all being passed; it's all being approved. There is little to no difference these days, and the division is getting weaker.

I don't have time to go into all the details, but this is simply not true. Yes. It is obviously the policy of both parties to allow a new president to pick his own cabinet -- unless there are blatantly wrong choices.

But Clinton did far more for the environment than a few last minute executive orders, as any alert trail supporter should know. His landmark new program was the Forest Legacy program, which made possible the protection of hundreds of thousands of acres near the AT in Maine.

The Democratic Senate is doing it's job in preventing blatantly anti-environmental protection bills from becoming laws.

But most laws are merely frameworks, passed on the assumption that the administration agencies will adopt the detailed rules needed to carry out the intent of Congress. Bush has abolished this assumption, changing by rules scores of Congressional decrees dealing with clean air and water, and most importantly in the instance of our trail, the management of public lands. The courts have reversed many instances of this blatant power grab and reversal of environmental protection.

But enough have escaped scrutiny to make Bush by far the most anti-environment President in modern times.

Weary

Jack Lincoln
09-11-2004, 02:51
[QUOTE=weary]IBut Clinton did far more for the environment than a few last minute executive orders, as any alert trail supporter should know. His landmark new program was the Forest Legacy program, which made possible the protection of hundreds of thousands of acres near the AT in Maine.


Pardon me Bill! That is basically what the bastard did with his "last minute executive orders."

Needles
09-11-2004, 03:21
You are wrong.

Things ARE black and white, any hiker or someone who spends time in "nature" should know this by now.

Absolutes rule your life, wake up.


I have a brother, who I love dearly, he was born blind, his kidneys failed when he was 15 and he had to go on dialysis for several years, he, thank God, was able to get a kidney transplant which he kept for several years before it rejected. He went back on dialysis, this time it caused him to have violent seizures almost every time he had a dialysis treatment which was 3 times a week. He was able to get another kidney transplant. He started having problems with his knees which were caused by one of the medications he took to keep from rejecting his first transplant. The drugs completely ate away his knees, he had to spend over a year in a wheelchair (try being blind AND in a wheelchair) but he refused to let this limit him and he continued to attend college, living on campus, and wound up getting his degree in mass communications. He wound up having both of his knees replaced and going through a long period of very painful physical therapy treatments, but it allowed him to walk agian, that's the most important thing.
He lost his second kidney and it was discovered that a blood transfusion he had received while getting his first transplant had infected him with hepitius C, this destroyed his liver. He and my parents had to move from Nashville to Dallas for 5 months while they waited for, and prayed that, my brother could get a liver/kidney transplant. Against all odds, and no doubt by the grace of God, my brother received a liver/kidney transplant.
He is now as healthy as he could be expected to be and would desperately like to get a job using the skills he gained while in college. Sadly if he got a job he would loose his coverage under my father's health insurance policy, something he can not afford to do.
He has told me in the past that he wishes my mother would have had an abortion while she was pregnant with him.
My father just came home from the hospital today, he had been in intensive care up till a few days ago with pneumonia and problems with his heart. He also has had a kidney transplant which he had to have because of renal failure which was probably (not enough evidence for it to hold up in court) caused by chemicals he had to handle at his job years ago. A job where he worked very hard to provide a decent life for me, my brothers, and my mother. He also has severe gout and can barely walk. I don't know that he still has the energy or the desire to do the excersize the doctors say he will have to do to keep his heart condition from killing him. Of course he is currently rejecting his kidney and so the heart condition may be the least of his problems.
Two years ago I spent every day for 2 weeks in a hospital room watching my grandmother fade from this world. She had suffered from alzheimer's for years and recently had went through a series of severe strokes which left her unable to live without the aid of artificial respiration equipment and a feeding tube. Her children all decided it woud be best if she didn't have to suffer any longer than she already had, they had the feeding tube removed and she was medicated so that she could slowly and gently pass from the world. It was the best for her, but it nearly killed my mother. My grandmother felt no pain, her children and grand children suffered greatly, but we all knew it was for the best.
I found out that I have type 1 diabetes when I was 11 years old and have been taking multiple injections every day since. A couple of years ago I found out that I also have an immune disorder called sarcoidosis, this is a condition that can flare up once and go away never to return again, or it can come and go over and over, each time doing damage to different parts of the body, it can attack the lungs, skin, eyes, lymphatic system, joints, brain, pretty much any soft tissue in the body. I have had a couple of flare ups since I was first diagnosed, what the future holds for me is pretty much up in the air.
Everyone in my family feels very strongly about their faith in God, that includes myself even though many in the religious community feel the constant need to tell me and others like me that we are going to hell and deserve death for something I can tell you none of us choose, no one would choose to be rejected by their families, told by society that they are second class citizens, face phyisical brutality, no one would choose to be gay, like myself. Some may question why we believe with everything we have been through, we know that we wouldn't have survived any of it if we didn't believe

eyahiker, I wish life was ruled by absolutes, I wish anything in my future seemed certain. Things stopped being simple for me when I was 8 or 9 years old, if you are able to still live in a world where things are black and white, well I am somewhat jealous of you. Sadly I doubt that most of us are as lucky as you.All I ask is that, please, until you have walked in my shoes, don't tell me what life is like.

Nightwalker
09-11-2004, 06:32
Too bad. Survival of the fittest, and the smartest - not murderers of their own offspring.
I can't believe some of the insane crap that you spew out. Go read Romans chapter 2, verse 1. If you still feel like passing judgement on folks, read Romans chapters 1-5. If you STILL feel the need to judge people, then you need to get on your face and pray for forgiveness.

You spend your time here making Christians look very bad. Please stop it!

Lion King
09-11-2004, 08:59
All the lessons of simplicity that you are shown with love every time you step outside ususally allows for you to see that there are many things in life we all go through, and we all do suffer.

We all go through death, we all go through hardships, we all experiance lifes little traumas and tests, and hiking, for me anyway, shows the importance of taking what those tragedies have shown, and turning them into valuable knowlgedge that you can grow from and share.

Hiking shows how important it is not to worry so much about all the little things that makes us different, but to imbrace them and share what our differences are in order to help others through things that ARE tough, and how to deal on lifes little tests(No matter how big) and to go forward with a new outlook.

Life may be black, white grey, blue and purple...maybe there is no middle ground, maybe the water tastes different where you live, and maybe the rights I have been taught are wrongs were you are from...but the fact remains this...we must be able to accept and understand those differences, let those we dont agree with go, and allow those people to be what it is they are, no matter how much we dont agree with it, and at the same time, being what we are and hoping they are cool enough to listen (Or ignore) without judgement or backlash.

Too bad we are taught that what isnt what we are taught by those before us is wrong, and should be forced into submission to make our own beliefs right.

Well...maybe you should take a breath, look at life from others point of view and deal with it or let it go, because arguing about what you do or do not believe in doesnt bring anything but a continued conflict that will never be resolved.

When these arguments persist, it only shows a controling nature and a stubborn if not ignorant faith in onesidedness without the ability to grow or change, in order to help all of us, even those we dont agree with at all.


Hiking my own hike since 98


Lion King
walkingwithfreedom.com

smokymtnsteve
09-11-2004, 09:15
Too bad. Survival of the fittest, and the smartest - not murderers of their own offspring.

Darwinist you are now????

weary
09-11-2004, 11:59
[QUOTE=weary]IBut Clinton did far more for the environment than a few last minute executive orders, as any alert trail supporter should know. His landmark new program was the Forest Legacy program, which made possible the protection of hundreds of thousands of acres near the AT in Maine.

Pardon me Bill! That is basically what the bastard did with his "last minute executive orders."

Sorry, but you are wrong. The Forest Legacy program was established by Congress in 1978. The key change that made it work occurred in 1996 in the middle of the Clinton presidency, when state projects were added to what had been a little known and little used federal program.

Maine was the first state to take major advantage of the change. Since then Forest Legacy has protected 545,000 acres in the Watershed of the West Branch of the Penobscot River. That's the river that flows under the Abol Bridge where the trail enters in to Baxter Park.

Some of the land is held by the state and entities like the Nature Conservancy in fee. Some of it is in easements that restrict development, and guarantee public access.

In all 658,464 Maine acres have been protected with the help of Forest Legacy -- including The Debsconeag Wilderness that connects Baxter Park with the Nahmakanta state preserve --- creating the largest block of near wilderness in the East.

The last time I checked another 508,000 acres are in the pipeline awaiting funding and the completion of negaotiations with the private landowners.

Unfortunatelely other states have noted Maine's success and increasingly are applying for the limited federal funds available. Appropriations are up, but demand has far outstripped the growing need during the Bush years.

Weary

bearbait2k4
09-11-2004, 15:27
I still don't see how one radical in the government, who happens to be President (by appointment), falsifies my original statement.

Look, I don't disagree that Bush should be taken out of office; my original statement said nothing of specific Presidencies, just a generalized statement. One that is still true, if you look at all the trends, including environmental protection. The 2 decade trend of trying to prolong and protect our environment has maintained an almost steady increase, from 2000 back. In fact, the progress started to slightly slow down during the Clinton Administration. Our environmental progress just wasn't publicized as much under Republican Administrations (which has been the majority over the past 2 decades), because that is not one of their party's main "stated" focuses, as it is with the Democrats. The Democrats are proud of saying they love the environment, that is why you hear and can easily find access to all of their envirnomental legislature. However - - Reagan did more to make vehicles more fuel efficient than Clinton did - - just one example.

Just as Republicans love to talk about how much they do to cut taxes while pointing out that Democrats only raise them. Funny, but the only time I ever had to PAY out extra taxes at the end of the year was during the Bush Administration.

I see too many similarities in these 2 parties, the biggest one being that they no longer do anything for our good, or for our best interests, as a whole. I think that adding a third party, in the very least, would help to overcome this.

Maybe everyone here participating in this thread should just agree to disagree, at some point, and get back to talking about hiking.

eyahiker
09-11-2004, 15:45
I can't believe some of the insane crap that you spew out. Go read Romans chapter 2, verse 1. If you still feel like passing judgement on folks, read Romans chapters 1-5. If you STILL feel the need to judge people, then you need to get on your face and pray for forgiveness.

You spend your time here making Christians look very bad. Please stop it!Frank, I judge no one. God is the judge of us all. Abortion is murder. If you are a Christian, One would believe that you would know this, agree with this, and support this with everything you have.
I can not judge anyone, I'm a human, and I'm a sinner. But I can clearly see what you're all about by your fruits.

If it's not a baby, then your're not pregnant. Period.

weary
09-11-2004, 18:36
The Clinton administration did absolutely NOTHING for our environment for almost 8 years. Finally, when Clinton realized he was going to be leaving office with little accomplishments for protecting our environment, he decided to get to work. He helped pass numerous bills and laws, most of which wouldn't even begin to take place until 2004 (arsenic levels), or 2010 (emissions standards). Yes, wouldn't even BEGIN to take place. Essentially, his record for the environment is about the same as Bush's, presently, because neither one of them did anything to help the environment for their first terms.

Well, here is what the Natural Resources Defense Council said about Clinton shortly after Bush was elected by the Supreme Court.

WASHINGTON —

If President Clinton had not used his veto authority to block spending bills containing anti-environmental riders, the nation’s air, land and water would have been severely degraded over the last six years, according to a report released by the Natural Resources Defense Council.

"Only the president’s aggressive use of vetoes and veto threats prevented the lion’s share of these stealth attacks from succeeding," said NRDC Program Director Gregory Wetstone. "Lawmakers attached these special-interest provisions to spending bills with no public hearings, no debate and no votes. It’s undemocratic.

NRDC’s analysis lists more than 70 environmentally damaging provisions that congressional budget negotiators attempted to insert in bills to fund the federal government budget, including riders undermining key programs under the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, the Endangered Species Act, the Safe Drinking Water Act, the Food Quality Protection Act, the Superfund law, the National Forest Management Act and the National Wildlife Refuge System Act. While leaving our environmental laws technically in place, the provisions would have denied federal agencies authority to spend taxpayer dollars to carry out and enforce these crucial laws.

"The breadth of the scope of riders since 1994 is horrifying," said NRDC Legislative Director Alyssondra Campaigne. "They include attacks on virtually every major environmental statute. Fortunately, President Clinton was able to block most of the egregious riders .../.."

Unfortunately, Bush has joined his Republican Congress in similar tactics. The worse has been averted by an active minority in Congress. Only the Democrats in Congress have kept the last four years from being a environmental disaster. A republican landslide for Presiden t and Congress this year will result in the gutting of virtually all environmental protections.

Weary

Nightwalker
09-11-2004, 23:14
Frank, I judge no one. God is the judge of us all. Abortion is murder. If you are a Christian, One would believe that you would know this, agree with this, and support this with everything you have.
I can not judge anyone, I'm a human, and I'm a sinner. But I can clearly see what you're all about by your fruits.

If it's not a baby, then your're not pregnant. Period.
Right. Keep fooling yourself, until it's too late. Abortion is a sin, true, and a bad one, I never said different.

What I DID say, and say again in a different way--which maybe one day you'll understand--is: READ THE BOOK. Did you actually go and read the part in Romans that I told you to?

You come across as judgemental and holier-than-thou in way too many of your posts. Then, when somebody calls you on it, you just fall back on your standard denial.

Yes, know me by my fruits, please. I live for God and I'm not ashamed.

I've got one more for you: First Corinthians 13. It's called "the love chapter". Read it, and really pay attention.

Open your eyes, Eya, and live like you should. Your constant judgemental tone is very unhealthy, both for you and for those around you. Saying that you're not doing it doesn't make it so, any more than saying black is white makes that so.

eyahiker
09-12-2004, 01:08
back on your standard denial
Uhhhh. Mr. Franklooper Judge and Jury - who knows me so well, what would that be? Let's hear it! ( Please also cut and paste this standard denial and reference each post which contains it)

You seem so upset that you are uncomfortable about the fact that you don't have the balls to come out and speak for the truth, and about the Bible you quote so much. Spewing forth scripture to attempt to 'back up' or justify the abortion is shameful.

What is your political view on abortion? be brief and to the point, it takes few words.

Could it possilby be this? ( Read your quote below)

Right. Keep fooling yourself, until it's too late
Please answer the following questions so that I can understand your babbling.......

Fooling myself about what?
Too late for what?

Frank, what exactly do you hope to accomplish with this personal attack?

Needles
09-12-2004, 03:31
Fooling myself about what?


Well you say that you don't judge others, but I feel you at least judged me. No, you didn't pass a sentence, but you took it upon yourself to decide, without knowing much of anythng about me, that I needed to "wake up" and that I "should have" learned certain things by spending time in the woods that you feel I haven't learned.

Could this be what Frank is talking about?

Nightwalker
09-12-2004, 09:47
Uhhhh. Mr. Franklooper Judge and Jury - who knows me so well, what would that be? Let's hear it! ( Please also cut and paste this standard denial and reference each post which contains it)
I'm done with this. I went too far. This wasn't about the abortion issue, it was about your over-riding, consistently negative tone. I let it take me negative, and that helped nothing. I take the blame for that.

You haven't paid attention to one word that I said, so I'm giving up. I'm sorry for getting so angry. I hope one day you'll see what you've been doing and change it, but I'm not holding out a lot of hope.

Go ahead and have the last word. I'm done.

eyahiker
09-12-2004, 09:56
Needles,I don't think so.

Telling you you need to wake up is not a judgment, just an observance followed by a suggestion at your previous comments.

It's nice to try though, when someone doesn't agree with your point of view. I have not been "judged" on here for my religious beliefs, but have been bashed and thrown insults - which is fine with me. I expect this! It is promised to me that this will happen when one stands for God's truth, so I am constantly encouraged!

I am curious though - it seems that quite a few people on here get their hackles up over the word "judge", the only one who will judge you completely is God. You will have to answer to your Creator when you die.

If the idea of someone having an judging your word/actions bothers you...........then perhaps you are doing something that you know deep within yourself is wrong. It happens to all of us all the time - some like to call it "instinct" that you not hurt, murder or steal from someone - but where do those absolutes come from? I believe it comes from God.

The same way it is not in the following of EVOLUTION or INSTINCT to kill your own offspring (abortionn/murder) because you just don't want them or they are an inconvenience at the time to you. (We're not gerbils.........that would blow all of the science-only believing folks off the map.)

It is not surprising that our society is one of 'quick fixes', including 'pregnancy'. This goes farther into the reproductive realm - one can now not only KNOW the sex of the baby, and choose the date the child is born (not in all circumstances). What's this all about - what about the whole back to nature thing? It's so contradictory.

There is always a consequence for your actions - and the fact that humans decide to have sex with someone they don't want to raise their offspring with, then have an 'unwanted' pregnancy, is not natural.

Control yourself and take responsibility for your actions ( not YOU, but I say this in GENERAL). Hey Needles, aren't you glad you're here today and that your Mother did not choose to suck your brain out of your head during a partial birth abortion?

grrickar
09-12-2004, 10:07
I agree making abortion illegal and forcing it underground and onto the black market would increase deaths of women and cause even more physical and emotional harm, along with increases of Infections.

Keep abortion legal clean and safe....prohibitions don't work.

LET FREEDOM REIGN!
I don't agree. If the logic was, 'it's gonna happen in one form or another whether you like it or not so we should legalize it', couldn't you say the same about guns, drugs, and tons of other things? With that logic, why have any gun control - people will get the guns one way or another - same as they do now with drugs. NO, that is not an endorsement to legalize either - I am just making a point here that I don't agree with that logic.

I think that abortion is wrong, and I will NEVER vote for a president who supports it - regardless of what else they stand for.

To me when the left calls out for gun control while supporting abortion it is the very definition of hypocrasy. They don't want guns out there because they kill people, but they have no issue with a child being aborted.

To me "pro-choice" means that both parties have a choice in having or not having sex with one another. That is the choice. If a woman gets pregnant and cannot support the child, there's always adoption - which is a wonderful thing because some people do not have the ability to have children. Use protection and common sense, else don't have sex.

eyahiker
09-12-2004, 10:07
Go ahead and have the last word. I'm done.Sweet. Nice try, play the martyr!

Frank, you don't need to play the poor puppy with the tail between the legs thing just because you don't like what I have to say. Why should you agree with what I have to say? It's your choice to believe what YOU choose.

But I'd still like you to answer the questions I posed to you, talk about a standard denial - you just jumped out.

If you want to ask me to step out onto the floor and chastise me for my tone here, that's fine - I welcome this - you know there are many times I have to agree with you! I can get pretty aggravated about many things I should not.

Sometimes when I reply, I don't necessarily think before I type, I just let it flow. I am sad about the state of the world and the way many folks think about things that are so primally beautiful and right - such as pregnancy/birth - this is the natural order of things, and I thought I was amongst those who enjoyed nature.

Seems that we all should be glad we are here - there are many great friends and soul-mates missing amongst us today because of abortion. Children are considered a nusiance - our society is raising a large # of kids with no morals, respect for life, and they will not respect you one day - of couse we think they're a nuciance! We don't have time for such a mundane task like actually spending TIME with kids, raising them with a firm foundation....it's all about us! ( And some think we are EVOLVING!????) We will pay for this soon, God promises us this.

I hope I meet you someday, I bet you're not so bad. As for you opinon about my "overriding, etc. tone", you are welcome to your opinion! But I promise you this - I will not sit by and be "politically correct" or afraid to step on anyone's toes about God's truths as I understand them. I am not ashamed of the name of Jesus Christ, and I would like to think you aren't either if you are a believer.

It's easier to sit or run than to stand.

MOWGLI
09-12-2004, 10:22
To me when the left calls out for gun control while supporting abortion it is the very definition of hypocrisy. They don't want guns out there because they kill people, but they have no issue with a child being aborted.


Well actually, I have a better analogy for you. It points out the hypocrisy of both ends of the political spectrum.

The RIGHT (for the most part) rejects abortion but embraces capital punishment.

The LEFT (for the most part) wants choice (not pro-abortion - only wackos are pro-abortion. That's as crazy as pro-lifers who murder abortion doctors) and rejects capital punishment.

It would be consistant to reject abortion AND capital punishment. Few people actually hold that view. In other words, life is sacred when it's convenient.

eyahiker
09-12-2004, 10:33
The RIGHT (for the most part) rejects abortion but embraces capital punishment.Murderers Kill people. Unborn children are innocent and don't have a voice.
Does your comment or this imbalance make sense to you?

If someone kills someone you love, I doubt you will feel this way.

If there is no God, who places value on life to begin with? Do you think you are worth nothing and have no value?

MOWGLI
09-12-2004, 10:46
Murderers Kill people. Unborn children are innocent and don't have a voice.
Does your comment or this imbalance make sense to you?

If someone kills someone you love, I doubt you will feel this way.

If there is no God, who places value on life to begin with? Do you think you are worth nothing and have no value?


No Mister, It makes perfect sense. Weren't you just saying how it's not your place to judge someone else?

Do you think life in prison without parole is a picnic? That's what most people who try and justify their hypocritical views like to espouse.

Either life is sacred, or it is not. I thought you just said everything is black & white? Which is it?

MOWGLI
09-12-2004, 10:50
Murderers Kill people. Unborn children are innocent and don't have a voice.



So, if I read all your postings, it seems as if you'd be in favor of executing women who have had abortions. Do you hold that view?

weary
09-12-2004, 11:47
I find it fascinating that most of those opposed to the right of women to control what happens with their bodies, are equally opposed to providing help to children once they are born.

The belief seems to be that every pregnancy must end in a new life, but it's okay for that life to be crippled or pushed to an early death by disease and poverty.

Weary

smokymtnsteve
09-12-2004, 12:04
"Motherhood is an essential, difficult, and full-time job. Women who do not wish to be mothers should not have babies."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

smokymtnsteve
09-12-2004, 12:15
I don't agree. If the logic was, 'it's gonna happen in one form or another whether you like it or not so we should legalize it', couldn't you say the same about guns, drugs, and tons of other things? With that logic, why have any gun control - people will get the guns one way or another - same as they do now with drugs. NO, that is not an endorsement to legalize either - I am just making a point here that I don't agree with that logic..

Sure we can say it about drugs and other things,,,Prohibitions do not work and cost society a lot of money.

http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm

Jimmy Carter himself said that the legal punishment for the use of a substance should not be more detrimental than the use of the substance itself. Having drugs legalized and having FREE needle exchange for addicts would make society safer for all.





I think that abortion is wrong, and I will NEVER vote for a president who supports it - regardless of what else they stand for. .


hat is a shame grrickar, life is not black and white, while I find as MOST folks do for abortion to be very disasteful, if a loved one of mine does make that decision and even if that decision is wrong and\or sinful in some opionions I still want them to be legally able to receive clean sanitary care, IMO any other direction for society to take is barbaric. If you don't beleive in having an abortion personally then by all mean DON'T HAVE ONE, no one is trying to force anyone to have an abortion.


To me when the left calls out for gun control while supporting abortion it is the very definition of hypocrasy. They don't want guns out there because they kill people, but they have no issue with a child being aborted. .


I have very mixed feelings about gun control, I do think that the assault weapons ban should be re-approved by the president.


To me "pro-choice" means that both parties have a choice in having or not having sex with one another. That is the choice. If a woman gets pregnant and cannot support the child, there's always adoption - which is a wonderful thing because some people do not have the ability to have children. Use protection and common sense, else don't have sex.


having had been a human for 45 years I understand that it is hard being human and most everybody and sometimes surcombs to human passion and sexual urges, it is quite normal,

also people get raped ,,,should women be forced to carrry to term the product of a crime that was committed agianst them?

eyahiker
09-12-2004, 14:02
Do you think life in prison without parole is a picnic? I sure hope not! - I'm pissed as it is I'm paying for death row criminals to get their fav magazine subscr., health club etc. etc. Why are they working for us and repaying their debt to society ( some do, I see them picking up trash on the side of the road, but they are usually idiots who got DUI's.)




Either life is sacred, or it is not. I thought you just said everything is black & white? Which is it?
God is the Creator of Life. I believe that life is sacred. You shouldn't take my word for it though, but seek these answers for yourself! Then you might have some HOPE that you are not just a piece of dust floating through the universe on a mission to nowhere. You are loved! God created you and loves you!


So, if I read all your postings, it seems as if you'd be in favor of executing women who have had abortions.
Wow, can you shove any more words into my mouth with one post? Please, would you like to cut and paste the quote in which I stated this...........otherwise, I will assume by your behavior and previous post that you are a LIAR.

eyahiker
09-12-2004, 14:07
"Motherhood is an essential, difficult, and full-time job. Women who do not wish to be mothers should not have babies."

Wow, again you come out with something I agree with, but please add the following...............Women and Men who don't want children should control themselves and take responsiblity for their actions or mistakes, NOT murder unwanted offspring.

Needles
09-12-2004, 15:30
Needles,I don't think so.
Control yourself and take responsibility for your actions ( not YOU, but I say this in GENERAL). Hey Needles, aren't you glad you're here today and that your Mother did not choose to suck your brain out of your head during a partial birth abortion?

First of all it was my brother who said he wishes my mother had and abortion whien she was pregnant with him, not me. And truthfully if she had an abortion while she was pregnant with me I wouldn't have known the difference anyway.

Secondly, I do feel you judge people eyahiker. Now some people may be conusing having an opinion with judging, but I think you are going a bit beyond forming an opinion. If I see you out on the street wearing a red shirt and tell you that I think your red shirt is ugly, well I have formed and voiced an opinion. No problem. But if I tell you that I think your shirt is ugly and that you will go to hell for wearing it, well I have formed an opinion about your shirt and then I have also decided something that only God can decide, that's when it becomes judging. Saying abortion is wrong, well that's your opinion, saying that abortion is murder is bringing it into a completely different realm, not only are you saying it is wrong, not only are you saying that it is the taking of a human life, not only are you saying that it is a criminal act bringing with it the posibility of sever punishment, you are also saying that it is a sin. Are you 100% certain that God agrees with you on that? If you are 100% certain that God agrees with you on that then you are beyond arrogant... in my opinion.

So yes eyahiker, I believe that you do judge others, hey, so do I, I think pretty much all od us do. I don't think we should, but since I know that I do it I don't want to make it worse by knowing I do and then saying that I don't, or lying to myself by thinking that I don't.

By the way, in the Bible it says "Thou shall not kill" which agrees perfectly with your stance on abortion. But I think I read that you support the death penalty, which of course involves killing someone which it seems to say in the Bible is something we shouldn't do. How do you feel about the war in Iraq? I mean I suppose you could say that our soldiers are just doing their jobs, but the same could have been said about the Iraqi forces that existed when we first invaded Iraq, or maybe you could say they are killing in self defense, but I don't think that would hold up very well either. I mean is killing in a war not killing? Does it not say "Thou shall not kill"?

None of this should be taken to indicate how I feel on the death penalty (I think it should be ended) or how I feel about abortion (I disagree with it completely unless the mother's life is at risk but I feel trying to make it illegal would make things worse, not better. I also think we whould look at some drugs the same way, you mentioned guns but living in Tennessee most of my life it is obvious that guns are perfectly legal in this country and so I can't figure out why you mentioned them), or how I feel about the war in Iraq (we should have never started it, it has made us less safe, the primary reasons we went into it were all about certain corporations making money) but it should prove to you eyahiker that grey areas abound, and that we have to deal with them every day.

eyahiker
09-12-2004, 15:45
First of all it was my brother who said he wishes my mother had and abortion whien she was pregnant with him, not me.Your brothers emotional problems are irrevelant here.


And truthfully if she had an abortion while she was pregnant with me I wouldn't have known the difference anyway.How do you know? Impossible.


Saying abortion is wrong, well that's your opinion,..............
you are also saying that it is a sin. Are you 100% certain that God agrees with you on that? If you are 100% certain that God agrees with you on that then you are beyond arrogant... in my opinion..........

Needles, you then say:

By the way, in the Bible it says "Thou shall not kill" which agrees perfectly with your stance on abortion.

you are contradicting yourself, that's OK, it happens to us all sometimes but I implore you....... You are not listening - it is not my opinion, but that of the living God, please PM me if you'd like further discussion about the Bible and what God's word says, I'll be happy to help you understand this as best I can.



So yes eyahiker, I believe that you do judge others, You are entitled to your judgment of me;) The only judgment I am concerned with is that of God when I die.

I missed the part where I mentioned guns, ( grikkar did) unless you are referring to an older, different thread about Guns on the AT.

Thanks for your comments, I like to hear what you have to say. I will always stand for what I believe is right. As for my personality or delivery, I am a work in progress and always can improve.....if my delivery or attitude here sounds offensive it is because the reader takes offense, I can only 'speak' my mind:o

Dances with Mice
09-12-2004, 16:28
Its gotten to the point where I can pretty much ignore WhiteBlaze. Every thread seems to head into a totally wortghless political discussion. Can't someone just delete this baloney? This is meant to be a hiking forum, but it seems to have bee hijacked by a few radicals. I am taking a break uyntil the election ends. What a shame to lose a (formerly) good site like this.

...............

Needles
09-12-2004, 16:31
Your brothers emotional problems are irrevelant here.

Accusing my brother, someone you have never met, have never interacted with, someone you don't know in any way shape or form and who has possibly lived a tougher life than you would even think was possible, of having emotional problems... I believe he desrves, and I demand, a public apology.

I didn't think I would have, but I find myself having to agree with an earlier statement that said you made Christians look bad.



you are contradicting yourself, that's OK, it happens to us all sometimes but I implore you....... You are not listening - it is not my opinion, but that of the living God, please PM me if you'd like further discussion about the Bible and what God's word says, I'll be happy to help you understand this as best I can.

Why is it that some "Christians" (take what you will from that word being in quotes) feel the need to claim that they know everything? Including seemingly complete knowledge of what God thinks and feels? Personally I look to the words of Jesus Christ, you know the guy who said "he who is without sin cast the first stone", the guy who said "I am the new covenant", the guy who said "turn the other cheek". He talked about love, he hung out with individuals on the lowest rungs of the social ladder, he fed the poor, healed the sick, and showed us that the sin could always be forgiven, the thing we need to pay attention to is the person. I personally don't see that kind of attitudde in people like eyahiker, some might say that this isn't providing a good example of what Christianity really is.

Eyahiker says he (please accept my apologies if I used the wrong pronoun) is a sinner, but that he doesn't judge. Well what are your sins eya? We are all sinners, some of us refuse to admit to that, some of us admit to it half heartedly. Some admit to being sinners but refuse to acknowledge any sins. I am a sinner, no doubt about it, I have, even in this forum, talked about some of my sins. I am not proud of them but I don't deny them, I know they are and will be forgiven. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son so that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but shall have everlasting life". Seems like a pretty straightforward statement to me, not too many loopholes in "whosoever". This is God for me, love, forgiveness, caring. What is God for you eyahiker? And since all of this started out about politics can someone tell me what tax cuts, defense spending, budget deficits, and terrorism have to do with Christianity?

rocket04
09-12-2004, 16:42
You are not listening - it is not my opinion, but that of the living God, please PM me if you'd like further discussion about the Bible and what God's word says, I'll be happy to help you understand this as best I can.
Wow, can we get any more condescending...

I have a great idea, maybe the moderators can start a brand new forum where eyahiker can help us less gifted people understand the word of god and guide us to true enlightenment.

SGT Rock
09-12-2004, 17:11
Actually we would recommend y'all stick to talking about hiking. We don't want to make this place controlled as some other sites in order to keep things in line.

Anyway, the general guidance I have always heard is to never argue with someone about religion or politics because you can never change someone's mind. Seems like that would be good advice here as well.

MOWGLI
09-12-2004, 18:33
Post edited affter readiing SGT Rock's post above.

eyahiker
09-12-2004, 19:01
Accusing my brother, someone you have never met.......of having emotional problems... I believe he desrves, and I demand, a public apology. You are the one who is airing the dirty laundry about his mental state by telling the world that he wishes he was aborted, I'm glad you're not in MY family....that is emotional trouble my dear, if you feel I'm in error, than don't share your brothers personal problems if you don't want someone else's opinion.


I personally don't see that kind of attitudde .....some might say that this isn't providing a good example of what Christianity really is.And you ARE? I have never claimed to be any better than anyone else, we are all equal here.

Politics are the subject, Sgt. Rock is right. So since this is specifically a POLITICS thread, Back to Politics, I'll vote my conscience for the one who is not afraid to stand for moral values set up by God in the Bible, I'll vote for George Bush. I also will push for everything green I can in my little neck of the world - especially trails! Hiking is a much better pasttime than sitting on this computer, looking forward to the next one coming up in October......

I don't expect to change anyone's mind, and I do expect to be chastised for my beliefs, thank you for confirming my place in this world, you have strengthened my faith!

:D

Needles
09-12-2004, 20:46
Politics are the subject, Sgt. Rock is right. So since this is specifically a POLITICS thread, Back to Politics, I'll vote my conscience for the one who is not afraid to stand for moral values set up by God in the Bible, I'll vote for George Bush. I also will push for everything green I can in my little neck of the world - especially trails! Hiking is a much better pasttime than sitting on this computer, looking forward to the next one coming up in October......

I don't expect to change anyone's mind, and I do expect to be chastised for my beliefs, thank you for confirming my place in this world, you have strengthened my faith!

:D

Yep, and I refuse to vote for anyone who thinks it is his right to limit or eliminate the rights given to all of us by the United States Constitution, the 4th amendment may not mean anything to George Bush (although it should seeing as that he has had a few run ins with law enforcement officials) but it means a lot to most Americans. I refuse to vote for anyone who commits criminal acts while hiding behind the flag and God like George Bush does.

And by the way eya, you have changed my mind, I never thought anyone could be as ignorant, simple minded, and filled with hate as you and still be a hiker. I guess we all learn something every day. And you still owe my brother an apology.

weary
09-13-2004, 07:27
Actually we would recommend y'all stick to talking about hiking. We don't want to make this place controlled as some other sites in order to keep things in line.

Anyway, the general guidance I have always heard is to never argue with someone about religion or politics because you can never change someone's mind. Seems like that would be good advice here as well.

It's only by discussion and debate -- discourse if you will -- that allows civilization to evolve. The alternative to discussion and reason is "faith." Faith is a wonderfully convenient thing. It allows one to say, I believe, therefore it's true. But those guided by faith need to keep open a tiny corner of doubt -- the occasional thought that one might possibly be wrong.

The Old Testament God demanded animals be sacrificed to honor him. It was faith that caused Abraham to almost kill his own child as a sacrifice. In the name of faith some of the best minds of the past were jailed or more often tortured to death or burned to death for failure to adhere to the prevailing "Chrisitan" faith.

Would Nazi Germany arisen had debate and dialogue prevailed in Germany in the aftermath of the first World War. No discussion preceded the murder of six million humans. It was a charismatic leader who said follow me. I know what is right. Have faith.

It was faith that produced communism and supression of debate and discussion that kept it alive. Why do you suppose Saddam killed or tortured those who dared to speak out against him? He needed faith to survive.

And speaking of faith what about the faith of those we call "terrorists" -- you know those who strap bombs around their waists and blow themselves up along with buses of school children -- or as in Russia a whole school of children.

Only blind, unquestioning faith, of course, caused the highjacking of planes and the flying of them into the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon.

And I suspect that it is only faith that cause people who love trails, nature and the natural world to at the same time argue for the reelection of a president who has consistently and methodically done everything in his power to damage the natural world.

Weary

SGT Rock
09-13-2004, 07:46
I wouldn't disagree on debate at all. It has just been my experience that almost no one is willing to actually do it correctly on a web board. In a debate, seems you ought to be able to at least see things from the other person's perspective, yet mostly what I see are folks arguing and assuming and allowing themselves to be offended by what someone else says.

Weary, you are not the type of person I would mind debating with because you are very articulate and thoughtfully. I also would consider myself outclassed by you since I am just an undereducated soldier and you are an intelligent person that made a career of using words to get your point across. Why I might not always agree with what you say, I always can see why you feel how you do and I always respect what you say because it never sounds like sloganeering and it always sounds like you are very knowledgeable about what you say...

However, often you seem to be debating with folks that are not at all like you. Debating with someone like that isn't really debate IMHO. We have a saying in the Army: "Never argue with an infantryman, it is like arguing with a pig. You both end up dirty, and the pig loves it." Seems like some folks here prefer to argue rather than debate for the sake of the argument or for winning (which is not necessarily possible), not for the sake of trying to persuade people to see another side of an issue.

Anyway, I think my major concern is that folks that come here to read about AT hiking and find a place that every comment or question can degrade into a threaded argument about conservatism or liberalism, religion vs atheists, etc will just end up turning new folks off the site about hiking the AT, and it may also run off some of the old timers around here that came here to get away from that sort of thing on other sites or e-mail lists. I have unfortunately participated in some of these "arguments" and have decided to back off and try to be the voice of reason of some sort to see if it is possible to tone down some folks rhetoric. I think that has been my point lately.

shades of blue
09-13-2004, 08:45
Weary
For the most part in these political discussions, we have been on the same page and what you said about "faith" is true. However, I don't think it's the whole story. Faith helps many people finish the Appalachian Trail....faith in themselves, friends, others. Faith in the person you are hitchiking with, that human nature isn't totally screwed up, and they won't murder you. Faith in your spouse while you are gone hiking, or faith that you can have some effect on the world around you. Faith doesn't mean blind obedience in all things (at least to me), but it does mean that you have to believe in something that is greater than you. For an athiest...maybe it is mankind, or a relationship. Religious people can have that kind of faith also. For me, as a Christian, it is a faith that while I may not totally understand all things, one day I will. I keep my mind open, I question things and think, but sometimes thinking and questioning can only take you so far. Sometimes you have to just believe. I may have to "just believe" that I will be ok in the woods on a solo hike. That doesn't mean I don't prepare and get as ready as I can, but I can't prepare for everything...no matter how hard I've tried. I have to have faith. Anyway...I just wanted to let you know that faith isn't necessarily bad....it's the people, and where they place their faith that can be the mistake. My .02

eyahiker
09-13-2004, 09:34
The world says "show me, then I'll have faith"

Jesus says "Have faith, and I'll show you"

Faith is difficult and uncomfortable for many. Glad I don't have faith in just myself, or I would never even start a hike.

Sgt.Rock. You are right on about the reasons to have less of these posts. I think I will do the same as of today, no promises, but there are many good points in your last post.

I glean so much knowledge and so many great suggestions from WB - from the Gear and hiking posts.

Hmmmm. Maybe 'censorship' of the political/religious posts should be considered........or maybe you can set the board so that you'd have to go to that specific forum, and it not come up at the "top" of the page, or under new posts, that would create an effort, things always change when it takes EFFORT.

;)

smokymtnsteve
09-13-2004, 09:48
I have faith in science, and the knowledge of the reality of evolution,

it seems that lots of folks in the Muslim world are very faithful to thier beleifs, even in the face of an attack from a power greater than themselves.

Blue Jay
09-13-2004, 10:02
Hmmmm. Maybe 'censorship' of the political/religious posts should be considered........or maybe you can set the board so that you'd have to go to that specific forum, and it not come up at the "top" of the page, or under new posts, that would create an effort, things always change when it takes EFFORT.


Wow, you continue to advance the cause of hypocracy. Other than myself, you are the most likely cause for censorship. The only way I could possibly try to top your amazing, astounding, hypocracy would be for me to argue for censorship and even then it would not work because I tend to avoid religious posts.

weary
09-13-2004, 10:29
Anyway, I think my major concern is that folks that come here to read about AT hiking and find a place that every comment or question can degrade into a threaded argument about conservatism or liberalism, religion vs atheists, etc will just end up turning new folks off the site about hiking the AT, and it may also run off some of the old timers around here that came here to get away from that sort of thing on other sites or e-mail lists. I have unfortunately participated in some of these "arguments" and have decided to back off and try to be the voice of reason of some sort to see if it is possible to tone down some folks rhetoric. I think that has been my point lately.

I don't see people leaving WB just because two or three threads deal with politics. Those who do not wish to participate should -- and do -- just ignore threads with titles like "Politics and White Blaze" or the "trail in wartime."

But when these threads get replies in the many hundreds and 6,000 viewers. Some obviously must find them valuable. However, I agree with you that tossing insults is less than useful.

I don't expect to change Eyahiker's mind. But I kind of think it maybe useful in the long run to encourage her to think about the implications of her beliefs.

And I do have "faith" that some of the 6,000 "silent majority" may learn something that is helpful. I know I learn something almost everyday. Without open forums I would be far less knowledgeable than you seem to suggest.

Weary

smokymtnsteve
09-13-2004, 10:31
These religion and polyticks threads are very popular or so it would seem from the numbers of views.

discussing religion and polyticks is an ole mtn tradition.

SGT Rock
09-13-2004, 11:06
And I do have "faith" that some of the 6,000 "silent majority" may learn something that is helpful. I know I learn something almost everyday. Without open forums I would be far less knowledgeable than you seem to suggest.

Weary

I have faith too, and I hate censorship, so as I see it such posts will in all likelyhood always exsist.

Hope to see all y'all soon on the trail, and if you are reading this and you are new to the trail - just try to understand that this sort of stuff we discuss mainly happens off trail when hikers have too much off trail time on their hands.

Alligator
09-13-2004, 12:41
...

But when these threads get replies in the many hundreds and 6,000 viewers. Some obviously must find them valuable. However, I agree with you that tossing insults is less than useful.
...
And I do have "faith" that some of the 6,000 "silent majority" may learn something that is helpful.
...
Weary
Weary, you equate the number of views and replies with value. That is entirely a misconception.

1. A view is recorded each time the thread is opened. You are probably responsible for many of those views, as are the other major contributors to those threads. There are less than 4000 members on this site, there is no 6000 member "silent majority" (Such ego! In fact, the exact number of site members falls short of the shown value, there are some, err, "duplications" ;) . )

2. A similar situation applies to replies, where most of the replies are written by the same people.

3. There are other reasons besides value for people opening these threads, entertainment and morbid fascination come to mind.

eyahiker
09-13-2004, 12:56
the reality of evolution
Evolution is a theory, not a reality, even amongst scientists.




There are other reasons besides value for people opening these threads So right. I read lots that I don't post to. Such great info on WB! A resource that should not be taken for granted:clap

weary
09-13-2004, 13:39
Weary, you equate the number of views and replies with value. That is entirely a misconception.
.

Thanks for the membership details. But I continue to think that threads with the most replies and the most views indicate interest. In my 10 months on the list I can think of only one other thread that generated such response. I forget what the subject was -- probably either Wingfoot or AMC.

Weary

weary
09-13-2004, 13:56
Evolution is a theory, not a reality, even amongst scientists.


Evolution is the only scientific explanation that I've heard to explain the fossil record that abounds throughout the world. The only other explanation I've been able to think of is that God created them to trick people into believing in evolution.

But I can't think why He would do that, can you? Perhaps heaven is too small for everyone to fit in, and the fossils are His way of limiting the number of right wing believers, who you seem to think are the only people who will qualify.

Weary

Blue Jay
09-13-2004, 14:01
There are other reasons besides value for people opening these threads, entertainment and morbid fascination come to mind.

Wow, entertainment has no value. That statement clearly shows where you are coming from.

eyahiker
09-13-2004, 14:38
Evolution is the only scientific explanation that I've heard to explain the fossil record that abounds throughout the world. The only other explanation I've been able to think of is that God created them to trick people into believing in evolution.
Weary

Hey Weary, Evolution is and remains a theory. It can not be proven.

Can you please tell me where all the fossils are for the first creatures who flopped out of the proverbial pool of slime are who "took" their first breath of air and died? And then those who as they were weazing to their death managed to mate with another weezing dying creature and exist till offspring were born and suddenly could breath air in one generation? And whre are the fossils proving deveopment of the lungs along the way?
They do not exist.

Many folks are so anxious to believe in evolution, anything becomes 'evidence' for the theory. Some people do not want God telling them what to do.

Evolution is an easy way out, but is flawed. Evolutionary theory's answer contains lots of things being created "accidentally" over millions of years of random mutations. If true, why do we not observe failures in this pattern? For example, according to evolutionists, the venus fly trap "accidentally" mutated into an insect devouring plant, apparently it is a stroke of luck for it that "flys" even exist! All evolutionists avoid tacking these questions and refer me to someone else or merely say "read Darwin." Apparently they have not read Darwin; in "Origin of species," he has an entire chapter devoted to problems in his theory.

How can anyone who hikes and spends time in the woods with the incredible numbers of creatures, beauty surrounding them, and the rythms of their own bodies think life is just an accident? ........What a bummer, you are just a mistake evolving along the path of time, your life means nothing and you will die and be forgotten by everyone and everything that exists - how depressing!

There is hope, PM me and we can talk about how important you really are Weary! You are loved and were created by a God who knows you are reading this post right now. :clap

ripple
09-13-2004, 14:57
There are such things as fish that could breath air and they also get thier O2 from water. Fossils are still buried deep beneath the sea and underground. You do not understand the complexity of evolution. The way creatures evole doesn't just happen over night. The fly trap was not created in a day according to evolution. Here is a question... why is it not possible God guided evolution? Maybe he set the things in motion. I do hike and spend lots of time looking at God's wonders, and that is why I believe in evolution. I don't see how you can look at nature and not see it. I don't see life as an accident, I am a biologist and I know nature/life is way to complex to all be an accident, I just believe God had is hand in the mix w/o just pointing his finger and "bam" there is a whale, bam there is a monkey. Why could he not have just set things in motion?

Alligator
09-13-2004, 14:59
Wow, entertainment has no value. That statement clearly shows where you are coming from.
Sticky piece of a S_H_I_T aren't you? Shows where you are coming from. Feel free to follow me around.

The post was addressed to Weary, so the concept of value was also directed towards him. Having read many of Weary's posts, his political discourse is not primarily intended to be either entertainment or morbid fascination. So when he spoke of value, I did not include entertainment as a subset. If I am mistaken, Weary is free to clarify his concept of the value of these political threads. But notice that he changed "value" to "interest".

rocket04
09-13-2004, 15:07
Hey Weary, Evolution is and remains a theory. It can not be proven.

I hope you'd be willing to concede that God is also a theory that cannot be proven. Nothing can really be proven anyway. There are things that were "proven" in the past and then were "proved" to be wrong later.

Alligator
09-13-2004, 15:07
Thanks for the membership details. But I continue to think that threads with the most replies and the most views indicate interest. In my 10 months on the list I can think of only one other thread that generated such response. I forget what the subject was -- probably either Wingfoot or AMC.

Weary
You're welcome, I like to help out when estimates of the true value are off by 50%. (Or sometimes even more!)

weary
09-13-2004, 15:51
Hey Weary, Evolution is and remains a theory. It can not be proven.
......You are loved and were created by a God who knows you are reading this post right now. :clap [/font]

Ah. Eyahiker. Can you prove this?

As someone has pointed out, nothing is provable. For all I know this whole conversation -- yea, this whole universe -- is just the dreams of a big-brained mutant creature that just emerged from the slime of the ocean. I've several times dreamed equally realistic things -- only to wake up to realize it was a dream. Maybe that was just a dream in a bigger dream. Maybe I'm the only creature that exists. "I think, therefore I am." But do you? If so prove it too me.

No one can know the truth of God. But if he exists, and has created a heaven, we can discuss it in more detail there. Yes. Eyahiker. If there is a God and a heaven, and that God is all good, all wise and all knowing, then I figure he'll let me in.

Okay, I take it all back. My granddaughter just called. Her car has broken down and she needs a lift. I'm quite sure she exists. I spent most of the weekend rebuilding the steps of the house I built for her father and mother and four kids. Only she and her Dad still live there. But I do have a splinter in my finger which may be an indication of some reality.

BTW, her mother chose divorce. Which if one believes Christ, her mother now lives in adultery. But we may also see her in heaven -- if there is a heaven, or something similar.

Weary

Needles
09-13-2004, 16:28
Can you please tell me where all the fossils are for the first creatures who flopped out of the proverbial pool of slime are who "took" their first breath of air and died? And then those who as they were weazing to their death managed to mate with another weezing dying creature and exist till offspring were born and suddenly could breath air in one generation? And whre are the fossils proving deveopment of the lungs along the way?
They do not exist.

Well, if you knew half as much as you think you know you would be aware of modern day animals such as mudskippers, lungfish, lungless salamanders, axoltls, and others that are either fish with gills that can manage quite nicely out of water, or amphibians without lungs which depending on the particular situation they find themselves in may live either in or out of water. Now I am not claiming that these are evolutionary throwbacks or missing links, but they do show that thinking along the lines of "an animal must have lungs to live on land and must have gills to live underwater" is completely wrong. So, if you want someone to produce "THE" missing link, no, it doesn't exists, and to expect it to exist simply shows how stupid you are. What can be shown are fossils with transitional limbs, not quite legs, not quite fins, and we can see in the fossil record a transition between fins and legs, a slow transition, not an over night type thing. So if a species found itself, over many generations, in possesion of limbs capable of carrying it over land, then the lungs or gills it possesed are a secondary matter. Plus a species may have evolved legs, but been incapable of living on land because of the breathing situation only to evolve the ability to breath on land thousands of years later, in the process many other things about the species might have changed as well making the species very much unlike how it started off. Evolution is a long process and to expect to find many, if any, "missing links" is to completely misunderstand the process.



Many folks are so anxious to believe in evolution, anything becomes 'evidence' for the theory. Some people do not want God telling them what to do.

And it would seem that many folks are so anxious to believe in some version of God that demands unquestioning, blind, and ignorant faith that no evidence will ever be enough to make them open their eyes. Luckily many people also believe that God exists, is all powerful, but also allows us to make our own choices and doesn't want us to follow him blindly.



Evolution is an easy way out, but is flawed. Evolutionary theory's answer contains lots of things being created "accidentally" over millions of years of random mutations. If true, why do we not observe failures in this pattern? For example, according to evolutionists, the venus fly trap "accidentally" mutated into an insect devouring plant, apparently it is a stroke of luck for it that "flys" even exist! All evolutionists avoid tacking these questions and refer me to someone else or merely say "read Darwin." Apparently they have not read Darwin; in "Origin of species," he has an entire chapter devoted to problems in his theory.


Evolution isn't flawed, it is just incomplete, but your problems with it again show your complete and total ignorance of the subject and willingness to make yourself look like a fool. Why do we not observe failures in evolution? We do, and surprisingly in large numbers. First of all you have to realize that the chances of remains being turned into a fossil are very slim, the conditions have to be perfect for this to happen, and unless there are large populations of a specific type of animal we will probably have no fossil records of that animal. Evolutionary failures could reasonably be expected to exist in fairly limited numbers and so the likelyhood of finding their fossils is greatly deminished. However we do find them, in fact the Burgess Shale fossils are chocked full of evolutionary dead ends, animals with that seem unbelieveably bizzar to our eyes because we have no modern day animals to compare them with. So there are tons of examples of evolutionary failures.

As far as venus fly traps go, no, it isn't lucky for them that flys exist, because the fly traps wouldn't exist if flys didn't. Remember, evolution is built on survival of the fittest, if a plant developed the ability to trap insects but no insects existed evolution would then weed out this trait as it would be too expensive for the species to support. There is a species of aroid in South America that typically produces large arrowhead shaped leaves hanging from the tops of stems, a mutation of this plant has been found in which the leaves are somewhat curled up producing what can best be described as a closed funnel hanging off the end of a stem. It is obviously the same species as the normal leafed plant, this is just a chance mutation. These funnels trap water, which doesn't seem to benefit the plant very much now, but the curled leaf doesn't seem to weaken the plant either. Most plants can take in some nutrients via their leaf surfaces so imagine if several bugs wound up drowning in the water trapped by the leaf, the nutrient rich soup they would become could benefit the plant. What if in future generations of the plant it developed thinner cell walls on the surface of its leaves which allowed it to absorb even more of the nutrients trapped in this water, the plants could become stronger and produce more pollen and seeds, generations later the plant might grown downward pointing hairs which helped it to trap even more insects, meaning more nutrients, meaning even more seeds, soon you have a new species of pitcher plant earning its living in a way very similar to the pitcher plants that grow right along side of the venus fly traps in the south east US.

But you are right, Darwin's book contained problems, no doubt about it, and he was a good enough scientist to recognize these problems and let others know about them. This does not mean that the entire concept of evolution is without merit, far from it. Evolution is fact, plain and simple, species change over time, that's all that evolution says and anyone who even tries to deny this is a complete and total idiot. What is in question is the origin of life, and the origin of individual species, but evolution, nope, no question that is is real.



How can anyone who hikes and spends time in the woods with the incredible numbers of creatures, beauty surrounding them, and the rythms of their own bodies think life is just an accident? ........What a bummer, you are just a mistake evolving along the path of time, your life means nothing and you will die and be forgotten by everyone and everything that exists - how depressing!

How can anyone spend time in the woods and not see the obvious relationships between different species than can only be reasonably explained through evolution. I have encountered up to 4 different species of trillium in one day of hiking on the AT, I have seen plants and animals occupying every possibly niche on the trail, and frankly I don't believe that every single one of these species is needed to keep the ecosystem going, but there was a way to make a living so something took advantage of it. To me it just shows how efficient and creative God is. I am glad he came up with evolution instead of wasting so much of his time on trivial things like what color to make a certain mushroom.



There is hope, PM me and we can talk about how important you really are Weary! You are loved and were created by a God who knows you are reading this post right now. :clap

Funny, you haven't read the message I sent you yesterday, and you still owe my brother an apology.

smokymtnsteve
09-13-2004, 16:41
Evolution is a theory, not a reality, even amongst scientists.



so is the theory of gravity ..you believe in gravity?

smokymtnsteve
09-13-2004, 16:45
I hope you'd be willing to concede that God is also a theory that cannot be proven. Nothing can really be proven anyway. There are things that were "proven" in the past and then were "proved" to be wrong later.

PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!


"Whatever we cannot easily understand we call God; this saves much wear and tear on the brain tissues.

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

Reverie
09-13-2004, 16:54
I thought this was a web site dedicated to helping AT enthusiasts not an political, theological, or anger-management forum. I must have been mistaken. Can anyone here direct me to a place I can pose a question about hiking, pack weights or the relative merits of ultra-light versus normal-weight packing styles?

Reverie

smokymtnsteve
09-13-2004, 17:01
I thought this was a web site dedicated to helping AT enthusiasts not an political, theological, or anger-management forum. I must have been mistaken. Can anyone here direct me to a place I can pose a question about hiking, pack weights or the relative merits of ultra-light versus normal-weight packing styles?

Reverie

Sure just go to the forum and search for topics you are interested in this is the Polyticks and religion thread, but we have many threads here at WB, a community of AT enthusiasts.

bunbun
09-13-2004, 17:04
And it would seem that many folks are so anxious to believe in some version of God that demands unquestioning, blind, and ignorant faith that no evidence will ever be enough to make them open their eyes. Luckily many people also believe that God exists, is all powerful, but also allows us to make our own choices and doesn't want us to follow him blindly.

But you are right, Darwin's book contained problems, no doubt about it, and he was a good enough scientist to recognize these problems and let others know about them.

How can anyone spend time in the woods and not see the obvious relationships between different species than can only be reasonably explained through evolution.

Not gonna get into a lot of this, but a couple thoughts -
1. Not sure how anyone can spend any real time in the woods and not see God out there. Not necessarily "my" God - but some higher organizing power - something greater than humanity. And more meaningful than "72 virgins in Paradise."
2. I never did find God in a specific book - or a specific building. But I find Him in everyone and everything in my life.
3. The God I believe in gave us "free will" - which is specifically the source for most of our woes and most of our happiness. Doesn't mean He doesn't care - only that He lets us learn and live with the consequences of our choices.
4. Darwin recanted his own theory before his death. That doesn't mean "evolution" doesn't exist - or work. Just sayin' --
5. And I find no dichotomy whatever between the existence of God (including a non-dogmatic form of creationism) - and evolution. IMO - those who insist on either one to the exclusion of the other have a blindness problem. But that's not my problem - or my business -- unless they make it so.

Needles
09-13-2004, 17:08
Not gonna get into a lot of this, but a couple thoughts -
1. Not sure how anyone can spend any real time in the woods and not see God out there. Not necessarily "my" God - but some higher organizing power - something greater than humanity. And more meaningful than "72 virgins in Paradise."
2. I never did find God in a specific book - or a specific building. But I find Him in everyone and everything in my life.
3. The God I believe in gave us "free will" - which is specifically the source for most of our woes and most of our happiness. Doesn't mean He doesn't care - only that He lets us learn and live with the consequences of our choices.
4. Darwin recanted his own theory before his death. That doesn't mean "evolution" doesn't exist - or work. Just sayin' --
5. And I find no dichotomy whatever between the existence of God (including a non-dogmatic form of creationism) - and evolution. IMO - those who insist on either one to the exclusion of the other have a blindness problem. But that's not my problem - or my business -- unless they make it so.

I actually agree with all of this. And I have had a few issues with bunbun in the past. See we actually can get along with each other here on WhiteBlaze :-)

smokymtnsteve
09-13-2004, 17:10
I can't see how anyone can stay outside and hike much and not see the evidence of evolution, Atheist and pagans hike too, lots of us.

PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!

"Belief in God? An afterlife? I believe in rock: this apodictic rock beneath my feet."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

eyahiker
09-13-2004, 17:54
Ah. Eyahiker. Can you prove this? Uhhh. Ask anyone, any scientist anywhere any person anyday. Evolution is a THEORY, this is common knowledge, and the theory is just that - the definition of theory. Please get a dictionary and look it up.




No one can know the truth of God. Yes, Weary, you can. You can, even though you are may think you are dreaming or not a part of reality, that's OK! You can know God and feel his presence and have a personal relationship with Him! The Creator of the Universe actually cares about you! PM me if you'd like to talk more.

BunBun, well said:clap

Faith is not blind, that's the beauty of it! We are promised that if we believe, we will be shown. You will not know this until you believe! It's there, it's free don't miss it! You are not some piece of dust blowing through the sands of time, you are important and loved.

rocket04
09-13-2004, 18:03
Uhhh. Ask anyone, any scientist anywhere any person anyday. Evolution is a THEORY, this is common knowledge, and the theory is just that - the definition of theory. Please get a dictionary and look it up.
I think he may have been referring to the "You are loved and were created by a God who knows you are reading this post right now" when he said "can you prove it?"

eyahiker
09-13-2004, 20:54
Thanks Rocket04, I may have missed this! Whoops.;)

Yes, Weary........not I, but God can prove it to you, would be happy to share, send a PM anytime you'd like.

frankcornbread
09-13-2004, 22:23
I thought this was a web site dedicated to helping AT enthusiasts not an political, theological, or anger-management forum. I must have been mistaken. Can anyone here direct me to a place I can pose a question about hiking, pack weights or the relative merits of ultra-light versus normal-weight packing styles?

Reverie
Go to the home page and post away. You weren't mistaken. It is indeed what you thought it was, and probably the best one around. This particular thread, however, is " Politics and Whiteblaze" and I believe it's pretty much on course. Damn good discussion, I might add. Stick around and open your eyes, you might learn a thing or two.
FC

eyahiker
09-14-2004, 03:32
Well said frankcornbread!:clap

Needles
09-14-2004, 03:53
BunBun, well said:clap


Umm, eyahiker, read what bunbun said...


5. And I find no dichotomy whatever between the existence of God (including a non-dogmatic form of creationism) - and evolution. IMO - those who insist on either one to the exclusion of the other have a blindness problem.

Didn't you title one of your posts "Evolution=Lies"? Does this mean you are now agreeing with bunbun and admitting that you are wrong? If you are does this also mean that you will admit to your error and cough up that apology to my brother that I am still waiting on? Or do you have emotional problems that prevent you from doing so?

weary
09-14-2004, 07:29
I thought this was a web site dedicated to helping AT enthusiasts not an political, theological, or anger-management forum. I must have been mistaken. Can anyone here direct me to a place I can pose a question about hiking, pack weights or the relative merits of ultra-light versus normal-weight packing styles?
Reverie

Try most any thread that doesn't have politics or religion or other telltale clue in the subject line. Methinks you know their are numerous threads dealing with hiking, pack weights etc., but just couldn't resist coming here for some reason I can only speculate about.


Weary

eyahiker
09-14-2004, 08:58
Good advice.:)

Reverie
09-14-2004, 10:48
What I have seen here is a small group of very angry people with absolute mastery over their subject, willing to argue to the ends of the earth with no possible hope of changing minds. You are absolutely right, I was being sarcastic. Apparently this didn't come across very well.


I have learned several things in my life. It is very unlikely you will change anyone's mind by adamently championing your viewpoint while ignoring and dishonering opposing viewpoints. Right to Life, Choice, Left, Right, Middle. It really doesn't matter.

Since my lame attempt at levity is going over like a lead balloon, I will keep my humor to myself. As for my opinon...

eyahiker
09-14-2004, 10:51
You aren't being a lead balloon:clap

I hope you stay, and say all you'd like to. your post was great, and there are some truths there.........but this is a message board, and we all like to give our .02, so............

Blue Jay
09-14-2004, 11:25
What I have seen here is a small group of very angry people with absolute mastery over their subject, willing to argue to the ends of the earth with no possible hope of changing minds. You are absolutely right, I was being sarcastic. Apparently this didn't come across very well.


I have learned several things in my life. It is very unlikely you will change anyone's mind by adamently championing your viewpoint while ignoring and dishonering opposing viewpoints. Right to Life, Choice, Left, Right, Middle. It really doesn't matter.

Since my lame attempt at levity is going over like a lead balloon, I will keep my humor to myself. As for my opinon...

I thought you might be using sarcasm but I didn't think so. I think only a few are really that angry or have any mastery over this entire subject. It's more like a chess game, no one expects to change anyone's mind. You can only change your own mind and even then that rarely happens, because few want to. I do appreciate the attempt to uplift this game.

LionKing
09-14-2004, 11:32
It is rather funny...all this discussion can be cured by a short walk in the woods.

No one is really thinking, just spewing repetitive garbage they have heard on the news.
Propaganda works even better when you have people who are militant in their ignorance of the facts.

Okay...lets play Jeopardy!!!!!!!

Todays catogories are:

Militant Strikes Since 9/11

Excuses and Reasons For The War

Oil-Who Knows Who?

Politics And 'I got a bigger one then you'isms.

Judging and Labeling


All right!!!!! Contestants on your mark.:rolleyes:

eyahiker
09-14-2004, 11:38
It's more like a chess game, ....... do appreciate the attempt to uplift this game.
Blue Jay, quit playing GAMES.

Of course you can't change anyone's mind, but you can be a LIAR. Where are the quotes you accused me of?

This is like the fifth time I have asked.

Needles
09-14-2004, 12:30
Blue Jay, quit playing GAMES.

Of course you can't change anyone's mind, but you can be a LIAR. Where are the quotes you accused me of?

This is like the fifth time I have asked.

Sounds like you are having as much luck as I am, where is the apology you still owe my brother?

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 12:34
eyehiker is a funda-mental-case xian...forgiven by it's god...all eyahiker has to do is accept the blood of a tortured and murdered innocent man and all thier evildoings are forgiven, why would they need to apoligize to you when they are already forgiven according to their theology?

Needles
09-14-2004, 13:27
eyehiker is a funda-mental-case xian...forgiven by it's god...all eyahiker has to do is accept the blood of a tortured and murdered innocent man and all thier evildoings are forgiven, why would they need to apoligize to you when they are already forgiven according to their theology?

I don't know that I agree with the tone of your message, there are things in it that you seem to be makign fun of that I think are true, of course I could be reading you wrong, but eyahiker doesn't need to apologize to me, it is my brother that eyahiker insulted, my brother who isn't on this list to defend himself. Doesn't seem to be a very Christian thing to do if you ask me. I have faith that eyahiker is a good and decent person willing to admit his mistakes and come clean when he is wrong or has wronged someone else. Just seems eya is taking a break from the high road at this point.

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 13:36
would you not agree that eyahiker seems to believe/have a fundamentalist
xian worldview...and do not funda-mentalist xians believe in the forgiveness of thier evil-doings by being washed in the blood of a tortured and murdered innocent man? do not they believe that this washing in the blood is thier gods plan?

Needles
09-14-2004, 13:50
would you not agree that eyahiker seems to believe/have a fundamentalist
xian worldview...and do not funda-mentalist xians believe in the forgiveness of thier evil-doings by being washed in the blood of a tortured and murdered innocent man? do not they believe that this washing in the blood is thier gods plan?

Yes, I would agree, but believing that accepting Christ as your savior is the only way to salvation and that he will forgive your sins and that he died for our sins aren't beliefes held only by fundamentalists. They are the basis of the Christian faith, and not all Christians are fundamentalists.

Personally I hold those beliefes, I am also about as politically liberal as you can get, I am pro-choice, pro gay marriage, opposed to the US occupation of Iraq, and a strong supporter of the sepperation of church and state. And you know what, I would have to say that Christ's teachings are the primary reason I feel the way I do on these issues.

Fundamentalists seem to be preoccupied with the fire and brimstone passages found in the Old Testament mixed in with the imagery of the Book of Revalations. They seem to forget that Christ stood in opposition to much of the old Jewish law and even said "I am the new Covenant". This doesn't mean that there is nothing for a Christian in the Old Testament, but it tells me it shouldn't be taken in the same light as the words of Christ. Christ was all about love, forgiveness, acceptance, qualities that seem in short supply in the fundamentalist community which it seems eyahiker is a part of.

I just wish I was a better example of these qualities myself.

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 14:04
personally I find the acceptance of Blood as a payment for a debt to be quite immoral and disgusting,,,I am opposed to the torture and murder of anyone, esp innocent folks.

your statement that

Yes, I would agree, but believing that accepting Christ as your savior is the only way to salvation and that he will forgive your sins and that he died for our sins aren't beliefes held only by fundamentalists. They are the basis of the Christian faith, and not all Christians are fundamentalists..

so all Xians would be fundamentalist as fundamentalist Xians believe primarily in the fundamentals of xianity.

I am not qualified to be an Xian as I have never committed enough grevious evil-acts to justify the torture and murder of an innocent man and to use his blood as pay-off....quite a disgusting view of life IMO.

ripple
09-14-2004, 14:13
killing a inocent unborn child is different ?

Needles
09-14-2004, 14:16
I am not qualified to be an Xian as I have never committed enough grevious evil-acts to justify the torture and murder of an innocent man and to use his blood as pay-off....quite a disgusting view of life IMO.

Well just remember, he died for all of the world's sins, including your's, and it wasn't required, Jesus was human, and like all humans he had a free will and could have chosen a different course. The amazing thing is that he didn't. Jesus wasn't murdered, neither the Jews nor the Romans were responsible for his death, he allowed himself to die to pay for our sins, he sacrificed himself, no one murdered him.

In another post you quoted Abbey as saying something to the effect of Christianity not being ture because nothing that gruesome could be true, think of the acts of Hitler, think of the Crusades, think of 9/11 and tell me then that Christianity is too gruesome to be true. Christianity isn't always pretty, but it has lead to a great deal of good being done in the world, the work of Mother Theresa, the art of the Vatican, the elimination of slavery in the US, and giving people utterly without hope some reason to carry on. You may think it is a false reason, but even false hope is better than no hope at all.

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 14:17
killing a inocent unborn child is different ?

unborn...that is the difference.

of course the god that xians beleive in willed the death of his son...some years after he was born, so I asssume this means the xian god accepts the killing of one's children....after all the suppossed cruxifiction of jesus was the xian's god plan?

ripple
09-14-2004, 14:20
Steve, you make me laugh, at subjects that aren't even funny.

Needles
09-14-2004, 14:20
so all Xians would be fundamentalist as fundamentalist Xians believe primarily in the fundamentals of xianity.

No, in my opinion fundamentalists accept the fundamentals of Christianity, but their focus is on being judgemental, dividing our society, anger, hate, and a need to feel victimized. The term "fundamentalist" is a misnomer, they may share some beliefes with other Christians, but their primary beliefes have nothing to do with Christianity in my opinion.

rocket04
09-14-2004, 14:22
Christianity isn't always pretty, but it has lead to a great deal of good being done in the world, the work of Mother Theresa, the art of the Vatican, the elimination of slavery in the US, and giving people utterly without hope some reason to carry on. You may think it is a false reason, but even false hope is better than no hope at all.
It's not Christianity that's the problem, just like Islam is not a problem. it's some people's interpretations that are the problem.

rocket04
09-14-2004, 14:27
Steve, you make me laugh, at subjects that aren't even funny.
This talk of the unborn reminds me of George Carlin... :D

"Is a foetus a human being? This seems to be the central issue in question. Well, if a foetus is a human being how come the census doesn't count them? If a foetus is a human being, how come when there's a miscarriage we don't have a funeral? If a foetus is a human being, why is it that when you ask a pregnant woman how many kids she has she says 2 and a third on the way and not 3?"

ripple
09-14-2004, 14:35
I am not some big prolife activist, I just hate it when people like steve are so against the killing of any type of life except the unborn. It seems hypocrytical.

Heart beats and brain activity don't constitute life?

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 14:38
Well just remember, he died for all of the world's sins, including your's,.


Please do not call me a sinner as I am a really nice guy...I am not a sinner but a human being..I do not require the blood of a tortured and innocent man to pay for any evil-doings on my part. how disgusting...if there is a god it sure wouldn't need human sacrifice to pay a debt..I want no part of a being or group who accepts human sacrifice. that would be barbaric.




Jesus was human, and like all humans he had a free will and could have chosen a different course. The amazing thing is that he didn't. Jesus wasn't murdered, neither the Jews nor the Romans were responsible for his death, he allowed himself to die to pay for our sins, he sacrificed himself, no one murdered him.,.

actually according to the NT it was not jesus's will to die but his father's..."allow this cup to pass but not my will but thine be done"

then why the big deal about the cross and the roman cruxifiction??? why did they need this backdrop..why didn't jesus just drop dead maybe with a major heart attack or something...why the cross everywhere??? according to the NT jesus died from cruxifiction.


think of the acts of Hitler,

Hitler was a catholic a xian...




think of the Crusades,

Xian atrocities..sure wasn't the athiest and pagans that went on crusades.

think of the Spanish inquisitions

think of eric rudolf..xian terrorist

Paul Hill ..xain terrorist

Tim McViegh....xian terrorist

Pat Robertson...xain terrorist threats

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C99792%2C00.html

rocket04
09-14-2004, 14:41
I am not some big prolife activist, I just hate it when people like steve are so against the killing of any type of life except the unborn. It seems hypocrytical.

Heart beats and brain activity don't constitute life?
I don't think it's a question of life. A plant constitutes life, but the same debate doesn't rage about stepping on a plant here and there. A foetus is most definitely life. But is it a human being? Some people say yes, some no. Some people say it depends on the stage. But it's not only about life.

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 14:43
I am not some big prolife activist, I just hate it when people like steve are so against the killing of any type of life except the unborn. It seems hypocrytical.

Heart beats and brain activity don't constitute life?


actually I find abortion distasteful, while sometimes nescessary...I accept reality and know that having clean sanitary care for folks that do choose to have and abortion is the better choice for society, prohibitions don't work....by all means if you don't agree with having abortions then DON"T HAVE ONE!

ripple
09-14-2004, 14:50
What is a human being? There are life forms walking around right now and through history (ie. off the top of my head Hitler) that were not "human". People do make a big deal about stepping on plants, they are called env. activists. If it is not about life, why why treat animals well. They are not human.

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 14:52
Hitler wasn't a human???...lol...he was a xian also...a believer...a catholic

weary
09-14-2004, 14:56
What I have seen here is a small group of very angry people with absolute mastery over their subject, willing to argue to the ends of the earth with no possible hope of changing minds. ...

Some I guess are angry, but not all. As for "absolute mastery over their subject," I haven't seen that either -- certainly not in myself, nor in anyone else that comes to mind. Well Eyahiker may be an exception. She is a master of what little she thinks she knows. But I detect gaps here and there.

Between the ages of 14 and 28 in an informal way I used to play around with religious beliefs and philosophical matters. But that was a lot of years ago. I never knew very much and I have forgotten much of that. I just struggle to avoid saying something blatantly silly. I mean in the general sense. Eyahiker is positive that almost everything I say qualifies as silly.

I don't know if there is a God or not. But I'm quite sure that if there is, He doesn't meddle much in earthly matters. And neither I, nor, I suspect, anyone else has a very good grasp of the nature of that God.

Weary

ripple
09-14-2004, 14:57
Hey I am not in the religion argument. I am agnostic. My feelings about the unborn have nothing to do w/ the catholic church. So Yes to me Hitler was not human.

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 14:58
"There has got to be a God; the world could not have become so ****ed up by chance alone."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 14:59
Hey I am not in the religion argument. I am agnostic. My feelings about the unborn have nothing to do w/ the catholic church. So Yes to me Hitler was not human.


Actually hitler was against abortion..so you and adolf agree on this issue.

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 15:01
"my g-d this a popular thread"

thanks be to SMS! :D

ripple
09-14-2004, 15:03
OK so.....? You are implying what?

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 15:04
OK so.....? You are implying what?


who me???...I'm not implying anything ..just the facts

ripple
09-14-2004, 15:05
Thats cool.

eyahiker
09-14-2004, 15:09
unborn...that is the differenceIf it's not a baby, then you aren't pregnant.

Steve, aren't you glad you weren't aborted?

Don't try the "I wouldn't know any different arguement", there's no way for you to state this as fact.;)

You are truly pathetic and will have to answer to God one day for your actions. If you'd like to hear more about the truth and how you can be forgiven for your sins, please PM me, I'd love to chat with you!

You know, the name of Jesus Christ is a powerful name, you attest to this in your reluctance to actually type it out. Would you prefer that we all use abbreviations to discuss belief systems?

eyahiker
09-14-2004, 15:12
Your name calling and comments are rude, and immature.

All you do is IMPLY. You don't speak any truths.

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 15:15
eya...what do you think the goddess of the mtns thinks about your using the blood of an innocnet torture person to pay for your evil-doings? she may be quite upset with you about this.

I know all about the funda-mental-case xian version of the "truth" which isn't the truth at all...you can get better eya...may you find the peace of the goddess of the mtns.

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 15:17
Your name calling and comments are rude, and immature.

All you do is IMPLY. You don't speak any truths.


titanium cook sets are lighter than steel ;)

Needles
09-14-2004, 15:20
Please do not call me a sinner as I am a really nice guy...I am not a sinner but a human being..I do not require the blood of a tortured and innocent man to pay for any evil-doings on my part. how disgusting...if there is a god it sure wouldn't need human sacrifice to pay a debt..I want no part of a being or group who accepts human sacrifice. that would be barbaric.

And that's fine, I won't tell you what to believe, but you asked what I thought and I answered.



actually according to the NT it was not jesus's will to die but his father's..."allow this cup to pass but not my will but thine be done"

Exactly, he is making the statement that his will and God's will differ, and yet he has decided to follow God's will, he is sacrificing himself for the rest of humanity.



then why the big deal about the cross and the roman cruxifiction??? why did they need this backdrop..why didn't jesus just drop dead maybe with a major heart attack or something...why the cross everywhere??? according to the NT jesus died from cruxifiction.

Well a natural death wouldn't have been a sacrifice, and the sacrifice is the important part here. Up to this point animal sacrifices had been the norm, as they were in many of the world's religions at the time, Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice and therefore eliminated the need for further sacrifices. The cross, well I can't answer that one. My guess is that humans need symbols, and even Christians are humans :) Think about 9/11, how many times since have you seen images on the twin towers? As a society we have reduced the deaths of 3000 people to the image of 2 buildings. Important events needs a simple visual clue that we can use to express, or avoid, our emotions. The twin towers weren't important, the people inside them were, the cross isn't important, the person on it was, the flag isn't important, what it represents (what ever you might think that is) is.




Hitler was a catholic a xian...

Xian atrocities..sure wasn't the athiest and pagans that went on crusades.

think of the Spanish inquisitions

think of eric rudolf..xian terrorist

Paul Hill ..xain terrorist

Tim McViegh....xian terrorist

Pat Robertson...xain terrorist threats


If I say I am an astronaut does that make it so? And lets not forget that atrocities have been commited in the name of almost every major religion, Osama bin Laden doesn't claim to be a Christian, and I doubt the Aztec kings who thought nothing of killing off entire cities and putting on public displays of cutting people's hearts out while they were still alive, claimed to be Christians either. Barbaric acts are common in all societies and are commitied by individuals professing every religion. Being we are part of Western society and we tend to know our own history better than any other, and since Western society has been predominately Christian since shortly after the rule of Constatine it isn't surprising that we are aware of more atrocities commited by people claiming to be Christian, but I think this reflects much more on these individuals and all of us as humans than it does on the Christian faith.

eyahiker
09-14-2004, 15:21
SMKYmtnsteve: And your head is thicker than water. I am no goddess, just a sinful human like you.But I'd be happy to talk to you about what Jesus has done for me, anytime. Feel free to PM me.
Are you sure about these cooksets?

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2004, 15:26
Well a natural death wouldn't have been a sacrifice, and the sacrifice is the important part here..

so where's the sacrifice? ..according to xian thought jesus is god a knew of god plan..so even though jesus supoosedly died he knew he would be ressurectted a couple days so no real sacrifice there...he gave nothing up..

eyahiker
09-14-2004, 15:28
PM me. I'll share all about it. Then you can make your own decision.

Needles
09-14-2004, 15:33
so where's the sacrifice? ..according to xian thought jesus is god a knew of god plan..so even though jesus supoosedly died he knew he would be ressurectted a couple days so no real sacrifice there...he gave nothing up..

The pain? The suffering? The humiliation? Going through that wasn't a sacrifice? Even though you won't agree with this statement play along with me here, taking on all of the evil in the world isn't a sacrifice? I think the sacrifice is obvious.

You are right about Jesus knowing God's plan, but he was also human, he knew of human fear, doubt, and pain, yet he still followed God's will. If I were a doctor and told you that I was going to cut off your arm with a dull saw and no painkillers, but not to worry, I could give you a pill that would make it grow back in a few days, would you let me cut your arm off?

Nightwalker
09-14-2004, 17:07
No, in my opinion fundamentalists accept the fundamentals of Christianity, but their focus is on being judgemental, dividing our society, anger, hate, and a need to feel victimized. The term "fundamentalist" is a misnomer, they may share some beliefes with other Christians, but their primary beliefes have nothing to do with Christianity in my opinion.
You hit my thoughts on that subject square in the bull's-eye. We're given free will, but too many folks think that applies only to them personally.

I'm against abortion AND capital punishment. I'm against most wars, even though I served in the armed forces. I believe that most non-Christian people in the world know what we believe, and that hitting them over the head with it is un-Godly. I believe that standing on a street corner, carrying a picture of a mutilated fetus, screaming hate at young women who are afraid, backed into a corner, and think that there is only one way out is as evil as most other things that I can think of. I believe that the unborn child never had to suffer in this world, and that the people involved in having the abortion (men, women, families) will suffer the rest of their lives because of their decision; they will be haunted by it. Actually, I know that last one for a FACT.

Judge not that thou be not judged.
If you judge a man for anything, you are guilty of that same thing yourself.

Straight from the word of God, but most modern day church folk will gloss over passages that they don't believe "fit" the current situation, and only beat you up with THEIR favorite parts of the Bible. I've done that myself, accidentally, and when I realized it later, I felt about an inch tall. Heck, I consider Steve, Blue Jay and Lone Wolf to be my friends, even though I disagree with them on a great many things. Until you've tasted the depths of a man's pain, you cannot know the reason for their attitudes.

Weary was a believer as a child, and he saw very UN-Christian behavior in relatives and others. That was probably among his reasons for losing that faith. Maybe he'll get it back someday. I hope so, but that's HIS choice.

There is a poster here who is doing more to chase people away from God than most atheists could, making people feel: "yep, typical Christian. I don't want anything to do with those hateful freaks." That sucks more than just a little.

Needles, the only way I ever see you getting that apology is if it's done just to prove me wrong! Here's hoping...

:)
Whew, I feel better

rocket04
09-14-2004, 17:25
What is a human being? There are life forms walking around right now and through history (ie. off the top of my head Hitler) that were not "human". People do make a big deal about stepping on plants, they are called env. activists. If it is not about life, why why treat animals well. They are not human.
Well, obviously we can all have our own definitions for things, but I assume to have a meaningful discussion we'd stick to the standard, whereby Hitler is very much a human being. As far as environmental activists, you must admit that there are debates over protection on a large scale, but the degree is very different. Even for our hiking purposes, trees get cut on the trail. So there are exceptions and they are often deemed acceptable. So I don't consider the 2 situations comparable.

rocket04
09-14-2004, 17:28
PM me. I'll share all about it. Then you can make your own decision.
Share share share!!! Right here!

eyahiker
09-14-2004, 18:06
young women who are afraid, backed into a corner, and think that there is only one way out is as evil as most other things that I can think of.Hey Frank, what is the problem with showing people what will happen to them and their child? Is this education mean? Do you want to know what will happen when you have any other surgical procedure? What's the difference?

I dare you to watch a video of a partial birth or any other abortion. You will change your mind. What's to be afraid of if it's not really a child an not really murder? TV has murders portrayed and crimes and victims 24/7.

The innocent ones are not the girls who've chosen to had sex without any intention of raising a baby - but the unborn babies who have no voice - talk about 'backed into a corner" they can't even speak for themselves. It is up to those who were lucky enough to be ALIVE and not ABORTED to do this.

Rocket04. Sure, I'll Share. What do you want to know?

Needles
09-14-2004, 18:23
I dare you to watch a video of a partial birth or any other abortion. You will change your mind. What's to be afraid of if it's not really a child an not really murder? TV has murders portrayed and crimes and victims 24/7.


Watch a video of an apendectomy, or even of a cesarean section birth of a full term baby, think those are going to make anyone rush into their doctors and beg to be cut open? Surgery is ugly, plain and simple, no matter what kind of surgery it is. And just like no one goes into open heart surgery without feeling that they have no other choice I don't think the average woman getting an abortion decides to do so on a whim, they are desperate, frightened, and see no other options available to them. Are they right, no, I don't think so, but this is how they feel. Offer them other options and choices in a way that isn't confrontational, allow them to make their decision without adding any additional stress to their lives. Yes, many of these women are in the position they are because they made bad decisions or stupid mistakes, I think that God will forgive them for these mistakes and so should you, and I think we should try to help them not frighten and accost them.



The innocent ones are not the girls who've chosen to had sex without any intention of raising a baby - but the unborn babies who have no voice - talk about 'backed into a corner" they can't even speak for themselves. It is up to those who were lucky enough to be ALIVE and not ABORTED to do this.


What about the women who are backed into a corner by a rapist, possibly even a member of their own family and find themselves pregnant, are they not innocent? Or do you blame them for getting raped and molested? What about women who desperately want their babies but find out that a medical condition, an accident or other cause mean it is the baby or them. They can end their pregnancy or they can end their own lives, and force their child to live without ever knowing the mother that wanted him or her so desperately. Answer these questions eyahiker, you say you know exactly what God wants, well tell us, I would be interested in finding out. I think others would be as well. If you don't answer these questions we will be forced to assume that you think a mother should die so her child can live without a mother, that you think a woman, or even a child that is raped by a stranger or even her own father should be forced to have the baby, after all you are against abortion and said that everything is black or white.



Rocket04. Sure, I'll Share. What do you want to know?

I know what I want to know, I want to know the answers to the questins I asked above, and I want to know when you are going to apologize to my brother.

rocket04
09-14-2004, 23:55
Rocket04. Sure, I'll Share. What do you want to know?
Everything!

smokymtnsteve
09-15-2004, 11:01
The pain? The suffering? The humiliation? Going through that wasn't a sacrifice? Even though you won't agree with this statement play along with me here, taking on all of the evil in the world isn't a sacrifice? I think the sacrifice is obvious.

You are right about Jesus knowing God's plan, but he was also human, he knew of human fear, doubt, and pain, yet he still followed God's will. If I were a doctor and told you that I was going to cut off your arm with a dull saw and no painkillers, but not to worry, I could give you a pill that would make it grow back in a few days, would you let me cut your arm off?


if the payback was going to be that I would be god of the world..sure that would be no sacrifice...I have had worst happen to me in my life already and the ulnar nerve didn't grow back..plus still I don't accept the torture of people to pay for debts.

Needles
09-15-2004, 19:42
if the payback was going to be that I would be god of the world..sure that would be no sacrifice...I have had worst happen to me in my life already and the ulnar nerve didn't grow back..plus still I don't accept the torture of people to pay for debts.

But you are forgetting, Jesus was already God of the world, so what did he have to gain?

On the torture and killing part, what do you reccomend be done with Osama Bin Laden if he is ever captured? I'm not making any reccomendations, I am just interested in how you think he should be handled.

grrickar
09-15-2004, 23:46
Question for conservatives. Why don't you have a candidate in this year's Presidential Race? For example, Bush and Kerry have almost the exact same voting record on Medicare and Medicade. They both adore spending, they both adore direct and total manipulation of American lives. What happened to you conservatives, why did you become socialists?
Check Kerry's senate record before you make that comparison. http://www.issues2000.org/John_Kerry.htm

Kerry is liberal (don't think anyone will disagree with me on that), and Bush IS conservative (ditto). Kerry is pro gun control, pro choice, opposed the death penalty (except for terrorists), opposes 'three strikes' rule for criminals, opposes more spending on our armed forces, and supports environmental issues. Website lists Kerry as moderate left candidate.

Bush is more stern on criminals, is pro life, anti gun control, and supports more military spending (to include the NMD program). Website lists Bush as moderate right candidate (and shows Bush as being futher to the 'right' than Kerry is to the 'left')

grrickar
09-16-2004, 00:10
Well actually, I have a better analogy for you. It points out the hypocrisy of both ends of the political spectrum.

The RIGHT (for the most part) rejects abortion but embraces capital punishment.

The LEFT (for the most part) wants choice (not pro-abortion - only wackos are pro-abortion. That's as crazy as pro-lifers who murder abortion doctors) and rejects capital punishment.

It would be consistant to reject abortion AND capital punishment. Few people actually hold that view. In other words, life is sacred when it's convenient.
True. I all depends on your point of view. Kerry is against capital punishment, unless they are labelled terrorists, and then he favors it. He is most definitely pro choice, and is 'staunchly against' restrictions on abortions. So I guess people value some life and devalue others - admittedly on both sides.

In my view the found guilty death row inmate had a choice, and made the wrong one and they are put to death for their actions. An unborn child is the most innocent creature you can find, and aborting it's life seems cruel to me.

Kerry is even against laws that say if you kill a pregnant woman you can be tried for double murder.

I have to ask - when is a human life considered human? In late term abortions the child is born, so if that is the point where that being is human then isn't that murder?

If a husband and wife are pregnant, and the wife wants to abort but the husband does not, who has the right to say? Most that favor abortion would say it is the woman's right, because she is the one who is carrying the child. So if it is the woman's right to abort, is it okay for a woman to get pregnant time after time and just abort the child because she doesn't want it?

I'm not sure what my take on capital punishment is. I do feel that some forms of it are cruel, such as the electric chair, and one can count on some innocent people being put to death wrongly, so I guess I am against it in some respects.

MOWGLI
09-16-2004, 06:44
In my view the found guilty death row inmate had a choice, and made the wrong one and they are put to death for their actions.

Recently the former Governor of Illinois took everyone on Death Row and changed their sentances to life without parole. Why did he do this? Turns out that more than a dozen men on Death Row were found to be innocent through the use of DNA technology, and other means. Unfortunately, our justice system places political pressures on politicians and prosecutors to solve crimes - sometimes at the expense of the truth. I wonder how many innocent folks have been put to death. It has almost certainly happened, and will happen again.

shades of blue
09-16-2004, 07:57
I vowed I wasn't going to enter these politcal conservations again...but....here I go again. Grricker, I actually liked your site. It is one of the first sites listed that seemed to be, on first glance, mostly fair. Still makes me pro-kerry, and not pro-bush, but maybe I am a moderate liberal like kerry. It is possible. One thing to consider about this website, and I know it would be hard to do...really messy. I would like to know the rationale for the votes, what was happening at the time. For example...it says Kerry is not pro-military spending.....yet there are other quotes (and the site used quotes in their scoring) which tend to show kerry as some pro-military spending. Was it a matter of timing and threat for the spending...or lack of spending? Was it mostly based on the vote against Bush's 87 billion for Iraq? (notice the Bush admin is now wanting to move some money from rebuilding to security...which unfortunately is probably needed). Bush is listed as wanting to have the gov't completely legislate morality. Is this true across the board...or is it mainly with homosexual marriage....which is only one part of morality.

The site is good, for basic look at canidates, but I still want to know more.

chomp
09-16-2004, 08:07
and Bush IS conservative (ditto)
Actually, Bush is a Neo-Con, as is most of the Republican Party right now. Conservatives I can stand, mostly because they stand for smaller government. Neo-conservatives, however, I abhor.

Blue Jay
09-16-2004, 08:25
Actually, Bush is a Neo-Con, as is most of the Republican Party right now. Conservatives I can stand, mostly because they stand for smaller government. Neo-conservatives, however, I abhor.

I can't believe it, someone here who knows the difference.

smokymtnsteve
09-16-2004, 09:24
But you are forgetting, Jesus was already God of the world, so what did he have to gain?.


you believe Jesus is god...It is not that I forgot ..there is no god so jesus can't be.



the torture and killing part, what do you reccomend be done with Osama Bin Laden if he is ever captured? I'm not making any reccomendations, I am just interested in how you think he should be handled.


he will never be captured.

Needles
09-16-2004, 11:57
he will never be captured.

Ah. but that doesn't answer my question, I asked if he IS captured what should done with him. I am just interested in how you feel on this issue. I have been pretty much an open book in this discussion, so come on Steve, share a little :)

Sly
09-16-2004, 12:15
If Osama is captured we hook him up to a dialysis machine with battery acid and be done with him. Ooops, sorry! :p

Connie
09-16-2004, 13:34
There are different sections at White Blaze.

Why not an entire section for political discussion: the trail and politics, the trail and yet another new "bill", the trail and politicians in the past, the trail and the law? I am certain you can think of better sub-sections for a new section.

Look at this thread! Look at how many pages!

There is no doubt politics, politicians, and laws old and new are important to the people who love the trail, and what it represents in our human consciousness, for ourselves and for who comes after us.


Connie

Blue Jay
09-16-2004, 13:48
Ah. but that doesn't answer my question, I asked if he IS captured what should done with him. I am just interested in how you feel on this issue. I have been pretty much an open book in this discussion, so come on Steve, share a little :)

I know this one was to Steve but I can't resist. He should be placed in the same cell block with other mass murderers such as Saddam, Jeffery Dahlmer, and George Bush.

smokymtnsteve
09-16-2004, 14:54
Ah. but that doesn't answer my question, I asked if he IS captured what should done with him. I am just interested in how you feel on this issue. I have been pretty much an open book in this discussion, so come on Steve, share a little :)

Ignore him...giving him a world stage even to kill him would futher his purpose,,, our reaction to his actions are only an escalation....even though I know that a human exsist named Osama he is only the ceremonial head of an idea...no matter what personally happens to this indivdual the ideaology will survive.

Needles
09-16-2004, 16:42
Ignore him...giving him a world stage even to kill him would futher his purpose,,, our reaction to his actions are only an escalation....even though I know that a human exsist named Osama he is only the ceremonial head of an idea...no matter what personally happens to this indivdual the ideaology will survive.

Interesting, so are you saying we shouldn't even try to capture him? (not certain that we are putting a lot of effort into that any way, at least not when compared to the "War Against Something that isn't terror but that we like to lump in with it, if anything maybe it is a war FOR terror as there are many more terrorists in Iraq now than there were before we invaded)

Many, not saying that I am included in this group, would say that we tried ignoring him before and that's what caused 9/11. However I do have to agree that getting rid of Osama will not get rid of terrorism or even Al-Quida, I think we would be better off sending food, medicine, doctors, and engineers into the Middle East than we are sending the military. I think shooting people only convinces their loved ones that we are evil and should be taken down, focusing the majority of our attention on humanitarian aid might sway, at least some would be terrorists, that we aren't the bad guys after all.

Needles
09-16-2004, 16:44
I know this one was to Steve but I can't resist. He should be placed in the same cell block with other mass murderers such as Saddam, Jeffery Dahlmer, and George Bush.

Hey now, be fair, Jeffery is already dead, so he isn't in a cell block. ;)

smokymtnsteve
09-16-2004, 19:40
just cover IRAQ with chocolate bars and big macs, feed'em till they are so fat and sleepy they can't get up to fight,,,send'em some good smoke.

then on this side of the ocean stop building so many more roads and cars,,,redesign our "civilization" . In todays paper in ATL there was an article about how we are going to build more roads and this just to keep up with traffic caused by commuting...wouldn't a more sensible answer be to stop the commuting and build a more liveable world. Freedom in the commons brings ruin to all.

grrickar
09-16-2004, 21:22
Recently the former Governor of Illinois took everyone on Death Row and changed their sentances to life without parole. Why did he do this? Turns out that more than a dozen men on Death Row were found to be innocent through the use of DNA technology, and other means. Unfortunately, our justice system places political pressures on politicians and prosecutors to solve crimes - sometimes at the expense of the truth. I wonder how many innocent folks have been put to death. It has almost certainly happened, and will happen again.
Yep. And I acknowledged that: "I'm not sure what my take on capital punishment is. I do feel that some forms of it are cruel, such as the electric chair, and one can count on some innocent people being put to death wrongly, so I guess I am against it in some respects."

grrickar
09-16-2004, 21:26
Actually, Bush is a Neo-Con, as is most of the Republican Party right now. Conservatives I can stand, mostly because they stand for smaller government. Neo-conservatives, however, I abhor.
Okay, I have no idea what a neo-con is. Can you explain?

I admit that I support some of Bush's agendas, and groan at the thought of some of his others. I consider myself conservative, probably a moderate conservative in fact.

Bush's record on the environment concerns me the most. He seems to side with big business (lumber companies, oil companies) instead of trying to preserve our natural resources.

grrickar
09-16-2004, 21:33
Grricker, I actually liked your site. It is one of the first sites listed that seemed to be, on first glance, mostly fair. Still makes me pro-kerry, and not pro-bush, but maybe I am a moderate liberal like kerry. It is possible. One thing to consider about this website, and I know it would be hard to do...really messy. I would like to know the rationale for the votes, what was happening at the time. For example...it says Kerry is not pro-military spending.....yet there are other quotes (and the site used quotes in their scoring) which tend to show kerry as some pro-military spending. Was it a matter of timing and threat for the spending...or lack of spending? Was it mostly based on the vote against Bush's 87 billion for Iraq? (notice the Bush admin is now wanting to move some money from rebuilding to security...which unfortunately is probably needed). Bush is listed as wanting to have the gov't completely legislate morality. Is this true across the board...or is it mainly with homosexual marriage....which is only one part of morality.

The site is good, for basic look at canidates, but I still want to know more.
I agree. Not my site, just one that someone pointed me to. Gives a good basic take on things without the political bashings of the RNC or Kerry sites, and that is a rare thing indeed in these times.

I think for the most part Kerry is against more spending on the military. I know he is against the NMD (Star Wars programs that started during Reagan administration). The missile defense programs are big for business, especially in Huntsville, AL. The objective is to protect the US from ICBM attacks from other nations. Now many seem to think that particular threat is lessened since the end of the cold war, and many want to focus on homeland security. I cannot confirm but I think that is why Kerry is against the NMD programs.

Blue Jay
09-17-2004, 08:07
Hey now, be fair, Jeffery is already dead, so he isn't in a cell block. ;)

You're right, I was out hiking when they croaked him, but I do seem to remember hearing about it. Actually I like that idea better and maybe a few fresh bodies. Death is much too good for them.

Blue Jay
09-17-2004, 08:15
Okay, I have no idea what a neo-con is. Can you explain?

I admit that I support some of Bush's agendas, and groan at the thought of some of his others. I consider myself conservative, probably a moderate conservative in fact.

Bush's record on the environment concerns me the most. He seems to side with big business (lumber companies, oil companies) instead of trying to preserve our natural resources.

You kind of described it yourself. A neocon is someone who hides behind the conservative name but actually spends as much (Bush more) than a liberal. A neocon also is just a complete slave to the corporations and hates vets and working people.

Don
09-17-2004, 09:14
See the following article....

http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=19618