What do I need to winter hike?

[trijuggle]

I'd like to get a perspective from the ultra light hiker people about what I need to hike in the High Peak region, NY, during winter. I'm also planning on tagging along with a friend or two this new years day to climb Mt. Washington in NH, as a day hike.

I hate getting blisters and lugging around anything else other then snickers and gatorade when I hike during the non snow season.

-What's a good bare-bones snow boot? Or does bare-bones not exist in winter conditions? That hopefully fits like a Asics 2130. I do have the microspikes. Gotta go mountaineer boot style?

-Can I get away with wearing two pairs of nylon dress socks on Washington? (is wool necessary?)

-Is an ice axe necessary? I heard it's worth lugging one up for the coolness factor in photos.

-Are gaiters necessary?

Thanks a bunch!

[mweinstone]

warm boots no axe gaters if you like no dress sox.

[wakapak]

I would definitely go with more than just two layers of dress socks. Sometime of heavier hiking sock would be better.

maybe you should ask your friend you're tagging along with about the ice axe, and what they recommend for boots and gear.

[trijuggle]

Sounds good. I don't want to sound like a naive winter hiker, everyone! :rolleyes:

[Shutterbug]

I'd like to get a perspective from the ultra light hiker people about what I need to hike in the High Peak region, NY, during winter. I'm also planning on tagging along with a friend or two this new years day to climb Mt. Washington in NH, as a day hike.

I hate getting blisters and lugging around anything else other then snickers and gatorade when I hike during the non snow season.

-What's a good bare-bones snow boot? Or does bare-bones not exist in winter conditions? That hopefully fits like a Asics 2130. I do have the microspikes. Gotta go mountaineer boot style?

-Can I get away with wearing two pairs of nylon dress socks on Washington? (is wool necessary?)

-Is an ice axe necessary? I heard it's worth lugging one up for the coolness factor in photos.

-Are gaiters necessary?

Thanks a bunch!

I don't do a lot of hiking in winter conditions, but I survived USAF Survival School in the Calaspel Monuntains in February. We stayed in the woods for a week in -13 degree temperatures.

The key to surviving in winter conditions is be prepared to stay warm and dry regardless of outside conditions.

An important issue is to avoid getting wet with sweat. It is easier to contol the sweat dampness if you wear layers of clothing.

Whether you carry an ice ax or not depends on whether you will be hiking on a slope. If you will be crossing slopes on snow or ice, having an ice ax and knowing how to use it may save your life.

At least one member of your group should carry a PLB or a Spot.

Wool socks are needed.

Although you plan to hike Mt. Washington as a day hike, you should be prepared to spend the night. Carry a bivy and a sleeping bag. In winter conditions, if you are unprepared to spend the night, even a sprained ankle can become a fatal accident.

[Toolshed]

I spent a lotta years in the ADKs peakbagging and hiking 4 season.
You will need pac boots (Sorels with removable liners are good) or at the very least a simple pac-like winter boot like Columbia titanium or bugabootoo (?).
you will need snowshoes - If you don't have them or skis, you will be fined.
Gaitors offer a lot of protection for your lower leg and lacing area. I usually always wear them in the winter.
You should also have wool socks and a set of sock liners at a minimum. A spare set is always good in the event you step through melt-water on a warm day.
When I am not hanging out here, I spend a lot of time at Viewsfromthetop.com (Rick) and ADKhighpeaksforum.com (also Rick).
These folks can give you a lot of very specific useful information for where you want to go. Also VFTT has a trip reports function so you can read recent reports of trails you might plan on visiting
Good luck.

PS - for most of the high peaks in the the ADKS, you do NOT need an ice axe. Prefer to hiking poles and good snowshoes. If you do get an ice axe though, take a course and learn how to use it.

PPS - Winter in high peaks areas is not the time to experiment with Ultralight. Most people I know that climb, carry day-packs that approach 35 lbs.... Thermos's of hot water, snowshoes, extra layers of clothes, extra food, goggles, balaclava, spare mitts, extra batteries... I have seen people up there with much less, but I don't believe it is wise.

[woodsy]

Mt Washington winter day hikes are not for UL hikers w/o overnight gear, just sayin.
If you can't go prepared to spend the night out then stay home. NH S&R thanks you !

[Connie]

Gaiters help a lot, keeping your lower legs and socks dry from walking in snow and having the snow working its way down into your boots.

Wool, or fuzzy neoprene socks. Insoles. Pac boots or double boots.

I wear Banff -60 F double boots, because the soles cracked and fell apart the first time I stepped out on really cold snow with normal vibrams.

I don't go anywhere hiking in winter, without the preps in food, water and gear for overnight.

Three dead on Mt. Hood day trip last week. Experienced hikers. Just sayin.

[mweinstone]

connies kinda turnin me on.

[Doctari]

Once you have your gear, what ever you decide, test it out on a cold weekend close to home. Go somewhere that will allow you to be close to an excape (Your car?) if what you brought don't cut it.

I wouldn't trust 2 pair of dress socks! Maybe dress sock as liner with a wool one on top.
Gaiters can work to keep the snow out of your shoes, & your feet dry.

The big trick to cold weather hiking is to stay DRY!! To stay dry, do not sweat, to not sweat, stay cool NOT WARM!!

Have a DRY pair of socks for at night. And, stay somewhat cool at night for the same reason above: you want to stay dry.

[weary]

I'd like to get a perspective from the ultra light hiker people about what I need to hike in the High Peak region, NY, during winter. I'm also planning on tagging along with a friend or two this new years day to climb Mt. Washington in NH, as a day hike.

I hate getting blisters and lugging around anything else other then snickers and gatorade when I hike during the non snow season.

-What's a good bare-bones snow boot? Or does bare-bones not exist in winter conditions? That hopefully fits like a Asics 2130. I do have the microspikes. Gotta go mountaineer boot style?
I got along for years (decades) with heavy, felt-lined traditional, rubber soled, leather-topped winter boots. Beans invented,-- or at least popularized them. They are not ideal for heavy above timberline use with crampons. In fact quite dangerous. But for occasional use, with only brief crampon use, they'll do.


-Can I get away with wearing two pairs of nylon dress socks on Washington? )
Abolutely, not.


--Is an ice axe necessary? I heard it's worth lugging one up for the coolness factor in photos.
Yes. But you do have to imbed in your mind how to use an ice axe. Otherwise, it'll be just useless weight -- or a photo op. Carrying one will protect your heirs, perhaps, from paying to recover your body in case you slip on a steep slope, but without knowledge it is unlike to keep ypu alive in the first place.


-Are gaiters necessary?

No competent leader will even let you climb with him to the summit of Washington, without gaiters. Nor would I climb with a leader who did. But I was a pioneer in modern above timberline hiking. I didn't wear them on my first hikes. After a few trips, I just observed how nice they were in heavy snow.

You didn't mention crampons. But some kind of sturdy protection against slipping on steep slopes, is essential. Nothing works better than crampons. Though front point crampons tend to break and be ineffective if you use the front points with inexpensive, soft-soled, bean-type boots.

For most of us casual winter high summitters, 10 points is all we need. Unfortunately, most people who experience such hikes, either quit such foolishness, or want to do more, and quickly graduate to 12 point crampons. So the 10-point variety is rarely seen any more.

A final note. You need to do a lot more winter walking before you attempt any of these hikes.

Weary

[Nean]

I'd rather you stay alive and think I'm an ass -but I can tell just by the questions you ask that you haven't a clue and shouldn't be climbing Mt. Washington in winter. You might get lucky and make it, just like someone playing russian roulette w/ one EMPTY chamber might not blow their head off. You're gambling with your life- find another "dayhike"

[Toolshed]

also, you can rent plastic mountainerring boots at The Mountaineer in Keene Valley , NY.

[takethisbread]

Mt Washington?

Are you craZy?

Unless you have a group leader who has lots of Winter experience on this mountain
Stay away! It is a deadly situation in better months than these.

It's not a joke up there.

[sasquatch2014]

Lot's of good advice give out the trick is being willing to listen to it. When working on a ranch out in Wyoming I once got the compliment of " your pretty ignorant about a bunch of things but at least you know it". If you don't know what your doing ask and then be prepaired to take advice that is given. If you can't do this then you will be a good contestant for the Darwain Awards.

[takethisbread]

this post has haunted me today

I just want to emphasize the
Dangers, there is no day hike this time of year.

Things can and often go wrong and a day hiker must be prepared
To be stuck overnight.

That means often:
Wind chill temps that can regularly range from -50 to -75 degrees.
Winds over 50 mph and gusts over 90 mph
(enough to destroy nearly any tent)
Snow from 3 to 8 feet on the mountain.
Massive ice sheets.
Conditions that change in minutes from tolerable to deadly.

Many people have died on this mountain and many more have been through a terrible scare
Or severe injury.

Please reconsider.

[Tinker]

this post has haunted me today

I just want to emphasize the
Dangers, there is no day hike this time of year.

Things can and often go wrong and a day hiker must be prepared
To be stuck overnight.

That means often:
Wind chill temps that can regularly range from -50 to -75 degrees.
Winds over 50 mph and gusts over 90 mph
(enough to destroy nearly any tent)
Snow from 3 to 8 feet on the mountain.
Massive ice sheets.
Conditions that change in minutes from tolerable to deadly.

Many people have died on this mountain and many more have been through a terrible scare
Or severe injury.

Please reconsider.

I've climbed this mountain a dozen times (never in full-on winter conditions, though I have done nearby Mt. Adams in winter).
Personally, I would never do a dayhike above treeline as a dayhike. I would carry at least a full winter bag (zero degree or below) and a tarp for coverage should I get caught out.
More accidents happen in the White Mountains in the winter because people forget:
1) How cold it can be
2) How fast the weather can change
3) Even in "good" weather, when the wind blows it kicks up snow so thick you can't see where you're going (a whiteout).
4) AND MAYBE MOST TRAGICALLY (and DEADLY) how slowly you move in snow and ice when the terrain gets vertical.
People who try to get down in a hurry often fall.

[Tinker]

BRING A STOVE!!!!!
Sorry, forgot to mention that, too.

[Slo-go'en]

Climbing Mt Washington or any of the high peaks in the ADK's requires full artic expedition equipment. Expect sub zero temps and strong winds.

You need plastic double boots with step-in crampons with at least 8 points. Micro spikes will not cut it. Heavy weight wool socks are a good idea. Soft boots really don't work well, as there are often steep sections of the trail where you have to toe kick steps into the hard packed snow.

Gaiters are a must to keep snow out of the top of your boots. You also need wind proof pants and jacket shell. (gortex is best in the winter).

You don't need to wear too much when your climbing. If you over dress you will sweat a lot. You do need something good and warm to put on when you stop for more than a few minutes to rest.

An ice axe can save your life (so long as you know how to use it for self arrest). There is a reasonably steep snow field you need to climb up and down near the summit of Washington and if you slip there and start sliding, if you can't self arrest, you'll be a bloody pulp when you hit the rocks at the bottom edge of the snow field.

To protect your face, you need a neoprene face mask and goggles. You need wind proof mitten shells for you hands. I perfer a pair of light gloves inside mittens, rathier then using just gloves. The fingers stay warmer this way and you still have something covering the skin when you have to take the mittens off to get into the pack or adjust gear.

Finally, it really helps to be able to pick the day you climb, based on weather conditions. If you just say we're going on such and such a date, the weather could be anything. More than likely, weather in which you don't have a chance of summiting in.

[weary]

Climbing Mt Washington or any of the high peaks in the ADK's requires full artic expedition equipment. Expect sub zero temps and strong winds.

You need plastic double boots with step-in crampons with at least 8 points. Micro spikes will not cut it. Heavy weight wool socks are a good idea. Soft boots really don't work well, as there are often steep sections of the trail where you have to toe kick steps into the hard packed snow.

Gaiters are a must to keep snow out of the top of your boots. You also need wind proof pants and jacket shell. (gortex is best in the winter).

You don't need to wear too much when your climbing. If you over dress you will sweat a lot. You do need something good and warm to put on when you stop for more than a few minutes to rest.

An ice axe can save your life (so long as you know how to use it for self arrest). There is a reasonably steep snow field you need to climb up and down near the summit of Washington and if you slip there and start sliding, if you can't self arrest, you'll be a bloody pulp when you hit the rocks at the bottom edge of the snow field.

To protect your face, you need a neoprene face mask and goggles. You need wind proof mitten shells for you hands. I perfer a pair of light gloves inside mittens, rathier then using just gloves. The fingers stay warmer this way and you still have something covering the skin when you have to take the mittens off to get into the pack or adjust gear.

Finally, it really helps to be able to pick the day you climb, based on weather conditions. If you just say we're going on such and such a date, the weather could be anything. More than likely, weather in which you don't have a chance of summiting in.
All excellent advice. I would only add that one also needs quite a bit of experience on lesser slopes, or at least going with a very competent group that knows your limitations and who recognize that you are going to need help.

The latter was my technique when I was first doing 3 or 4 winter trips each year on Katahdin in winter. I was on so many trips, the rangers grew to think of me as an expert, and let me and inexperiienced groups I sometimes lead in without question.

But I didn't take them to the summit. We just played around the ridges and snow fields around Katahdin. I knew my technical limitations.

Over the years I was on Katahdin's tableland a half dozen times during January and February. I only reached the summit once in winter. Other times bitter temperatures, high winds, time, or whiteouts caused us to turn back.

Most of my Baxter winter trips were devoted to snowshoeing and skiing on park trails. I think we were the first group to do a winter traverse of the park -- from the Mattagammon gate, to South Branch Pond, Russell Pond, Roaring Brook, and out, a four-day trail distance of about 40 miles.

A traverse of the park is now common. But it remains rare to do the interior route. Most follow the carriage road, which tends to be packed down by snowmobiles, making for easy skiing and no breaking trail.

Winter backpacking in northern New England is a totally different experience from summer. Only the foolish will attempt the higher elevations without first becoming comfortable on lesser slopes.

Weary

[Snowleopard]

There's a lot of good advice here so far.
AMC/ADK Winter School equipment check list is a good starting point for equipment:
http://winterschool.org/WMS%20Equipment%20Checklist.pdf
The Winter School student handbook has lots of good info:
http://winterschool.org/WMS%20Equipment%20Checklist.pdf
Read the hypothermia article on WB by the Old Fhart:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=96956#post96956
You should seriously think about what takethisbread said:

Unless you have a group leader who has lots of Winter experience on this mountain
Stay away! It is a deadly situation in better months than these.
It's not a joke up there.
If your group leader knows you and is knowledgeable, he/she will inspect your gear and not let you go beyond its capability. Some routes up are dangerous in good weather conditions. Your leader should know enough avalanche safety to keep you off avalanche terrain.

Another winter gear list from AMC, which in my opinion is only adequate for winter day hikes on moderate terrain well below tree line: http://www.outdoors.org/publications/outdoors/2002/2002-winter-gear.cfm#Dayt

For your reading pleasure, "Rescue on the Ridge, Why do hikers keep getting in trouble on Franconia?"
http://www.outdoors.org/publications/outdoors/2009/features/franconia-ridge-dangers.cfm

Even for people with substantial cold weather hiking experience (0F and below), the White Mountains above tree line are a whole new thing. The wind will often be extreme. It can be too windy to walk. You need to know how to keep from exposing flesh. For example, can you operate your equipment and clothing without removing your mittens? Spare mittens are necessary, because the wind will blow it away. Goggles and face mask or a tunnel hood are needed to keep your face from freezing.

Last winter there was a well equipped Canadian couple who got stuck above treeline on Mt. Wash. at an emergency shelter for several days . They knew where they were and where to go to get down, but were unable to move against the wind for the short distance they needed to go to reach the trail down.

Don't carry an ice axe unless you know how to use it; they are sharp and dangerous.
Real crampons, not microspikes, are often needed.
Snowshoes are often needed and should always be carried.
If you don't have crampons or ice axe, there will be times when you must turn back.
You absolutely must know when to turn back and when not to even start up.

[trijuggle]

<a href="http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i243/trijuggle/?action=view&current=1_MtWashington.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i243/trijuggle/1_MtWashington.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[trijuggle]

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i243/trijuggle/1_MtWashington.jpg

[Snowleopard]

Congratulations trijuggle! It looks like you were having fun. Did you do it on New Year's day? It looks like the weather New Years day was moderate (peak wind gust 40mph).

[trijuggle]

Yup, did it on 1/1. Conditions up the Lions Head trail were perfect my buddy said. Winds might have been 10 mph. There was no view on top.

Thanks for the help.

[drifters quest]

Congrats! You guys picked the right day :)