View Full Version : sleeping bags with waterproof fabric
Are bags with a membrain worth the extra cost and weight? I am looking for pro and con opinions on this.
The more water resistant anything is the more moisture it will hold inside. Down bags used day after day lose loft quickly if they can't be turned inside-out and dried during the day. Synthetics are a better choice for water resistant bags.
A better option, in my opinion, is to use a standard bag with a bivy. When it's time to dry it the moisture in the insulation can escape from both the inner and outer fabric.
Not many people use bivys (really waterproof ones) for long distance hiking (unless they're primarily using shelters or have a tarp) because there's no way to enter or exit one in the pouring rain without getting yourself (and eventually your sleeping bag) soaked.
I should have said waterproof down bags used day after day etc.
Feral Bill
12-29-2009, 05:38
I have two bags with a membrane. Very crinkly sounding, which my wife does not like. Maybe useful in some conditions but hardly needed.
Thanks for the info. I'm thinking I'll order the marmot helium without the membrain for my winter bag.
mweinstone
12-29-2009, 09:02
worst mistake youll make. and bad advise givin here. my marmott helium and col both have the eq coating. it aint crincly. it dosnt hold water in. and no fethers ever, ever , ever get wet. my condensation can wet the bag from the inside but only under one of three easily avoidable situations. one. you are in a bag too warm for the nights temps. unzip the foot and vent and remove your clothes.two. your just wearing too much clothing in the bag. and thee. you have a slight feaver and your sweating. best thing then is to put on tons of clothes and vent the bag top and bottom alot. now. as far as feathers being wet cumulativly from long wet hikes. no. the new exspensive marmott 900 and 950 and even the 850 downs are treated in a way these days and selected and sewn in in ways as to create virtualy no saftey difference to synthetics. yes damper at first while you warm up and body heat acheaves loft each night. but cold and compression cause most of that. and these new bags can handle it. as far as weight being a concern . the eq coating dosnt add any. duh. its a coating like dwr. it aint no membrane.
mweinstone
12-29-2009, 09:06
i routenly do this to prove my point to disbelivers. take an eq coated marmott bag and under running water in the sink, scrub and trist and stress an area with seams and really try to wet the bag. not a chance. rub to your hearts content. submerge overnight if you like. yo, its 2010, they have solved the waterproof/ breathable problems. dare ya.
Tipi Walter
12-29-2009, 10:12
This is an important topic, especially as winter hits and we sleep in heavily condensated shelters. I have a WM Puma bag with the regular microfiber and often wake up in the morning with a fine coating of condensation-moisture on the bag. And often the end of my tent rubs up against the foot of my bag causing more moisture. Sometimes I put a goretex shell or eVent parka over the footbox.
Anyway, I would probably go with an eVent down bag on a future purchase and why not? EVent seems to work great on my down parka and would be interesting to try in a winter bag.
The bottom line is, even with a regular down bag I'm able to keep it dry and what surface moisture comes on a long trip always dries in a matter of minutes. I would never take or use a bivy sac unless I was using a shelter system offering less protection than a tent. It's hard enough to sleep in a zipped up mummy bag, now throw that zipped up thing into ANOTHER zipped up mummy shell and you've got a night of constriction and cocooning.
And sometimes the bivy/bag combo can get very very hot, and if you're depending on your bivy bag alone to keep you dry(without an adequate shelter), well, any venting will lead to entering rain or sleet or snow and a wet bag. The neat thing about a tent is that you don't have to carry the extra weight of a bivy.
mweinstone
12-29-2009, 10:21
thank you sir. and bivis allways are wet in a pack. their aint enough sunshine and morning time to dry them . so much frost accumulates in a bivi. duh. they are for emergency mountaneering uses only. stop trying to save weight. we have light tents and weatherproof tarps. join us in tipi land. get a mid. event seems great till you own eq by marmot. their is no comparison. event cant be suberged.
brooklynkayak
12-29-2009, 15:31
There are a lot of water replant fabrics that I have found work well for sleeping bag outer shells or as an ultralight bivy material. Pertex and Momentum are some of the many that I have tried and I have slept with wet cloths and woke with the clothes and bag dry. They repel enough that drips, spray and some direct rain does not penetrate.
Waterproof bivys (Gortex,...) don't vent enough so sleeping bags will need to be hung to dry more often.
Some bags use water repelant material on the foot and/or bottom of the bag as those are the areas that tend to get damp in extreme conditions.
Most ultralight bivys use waterproof material on the bottom, but have highly breathable water resistant masterial on the top, great for tarp camping where you only see minimal spray. This would be my choise if you don't have a water repelant bag and plan on using AT shelters and/or tarps for shelter.
Depends on your goals, gear set-up, how often you hike in winter or wet environments or when the fill may get wet, if you are using down or synthetic fills, etc etc etc. If you want a dedicated WP sleeping bag because your gear set-up and where and how and how often you hike demands it, it may be worth it for some to have a heavier wt. more expensive less breathable but more protective sleeping bag w/ a WP shell.
There are several waterproof (WP) shells used in sleeping bags. Some of the most popular that I know of are Event(excellent breathabilty in a truely WP fabric), Epic, and one of the GoreTex versions. There are others sometimes claiming WPness. In general, WP shell fabrics, and water resistant shells(WR) don't breathe as well as non WP/WR shells. I think it wise to understand the differences between WP and WR shells and what their characteristics provide befor you buy so you can be in a better place to determine what will work best for you in your hiking conditions and with your hiking style!
My problem with a sleeping bag w/ a WP shell is not in its performance characteristics, but that I would then own a dedicated WP sleeping bag! I don't know of any WP sleeping bags that can be converted into non-WP sleeping bags. In other words, purchasing a sleeping bag w/ a WP shell means I would then own a heavier wt.(and in many cases WP sleeping bags are IMO significantly heavier than a non WP sleeping bag), less breathable, and more expensive sleeping bag solely dedicated to hiking conditions requiring waterproofness! If I had a garage to store all my gear and unlimited funds, yes, I would own one, maybe several sleeping bags w/ WP shells because I thru-hike a lot in various places worldwide. A better option for me, and I think should be considered by most hikers in the U.S., is to get a reg. sleeping bag, perhaps w/ a DWR shell, and/or use an UL WR or WP bivy/topcover/bag cover for when you want the extra protection. This gives the option and versatility of using the sleeping bag in hiking conditions when WPness is not a neccessity! For example, when I want added protection for my sleeping bag(I use high quality UL down bags as often as hiking conditions allow) I employ either an 8 oz 2 ply WP Event bivy or a 7 oz WR Momentum(highly WR and breathable) top/silnylon bottom bivy coupled w/ a 7 oz oversized solo Spinnaker tarp. I have used these set-ups successfully on winter and on long wet Pacific Northwest hikes.
In response to Matty, my bivies are often dry by the time I finish packing up the rest of my campsite or they quickly dry out when I stuff them in the outside mesh pocket of my pack even if I have a rain cover over my pack and over the bivy. Bivies do work for some outside of being used solely for emergency mountaneering!
Tip Walter, you bring up good pts and all that I've had to successfully deal with using a bivy or bivy/tarp combo! For starters, I've had to get used to sleeping in a mummy bag. Even with my lanky narrow shouldered body I had to experiment w/ different mummy style and shoulder girth bags to find ones that fit me, my hiking style, and the hiking conditions right. As you stated, same applies when adding a bivy. I've had to find bivies that weren't so constricting that I felt "entombed" inside my bivy/sleeping bag combo. Tipi, you also mention being hot and needing ventilation in rain, snow, sleet, and ice. I've camped many times using a bivy under those scenarios. Rarely, do I feel hot in my set-up! For one thing, I usually have a sleeping bag that's slightly less warm than the lowest outside temp expected. I sleep comfortably by adding or subtracting a clothing layer. When those conditions are expected, indeed, I put up a tarp. I have little issue staying warm and dry and keeping my sleeping bag dry even on longer(more than 3 wks) winter or wet weather hikes. I'm also not a fan of being totally enclosed inside a bivy by itself for extended duration on long hikes in prolonged driving rain, sleet, and snow! Never, do I sleep totally enclosed in a bivy w/ no way to vent! I also find it extremely helpful if I have a very good idea of what kind of weather to expect. In this way I can alter the temp rated sleeping bag I carry or mail ahead the tarp. What I do is certainly not for everyone and I realize what I do is considered a hassle for most hikers. So you ask Why? Even when compared to the lightest wt. tents/tarptents I save wt. and bulk and have versatilty in my shelter set-ups! However, with all the improvements in UL gear the time may soon arrive to just take a tent!
humunuku
12-30-2009, 18:31
event cant be suberged.
whats the point of submerging your bag...unless you sleep outside in a rainstorm with no other shelter your bag does not need to be that waterproof. Its kinda like camelback bragging about being to drive cars over their bladders without them leaking...whats the point? just overkill.
mweinstone
12-31-2009, 14:28
sleeping in my floorless tent without a groundcloth as i have all my life, slushy snow and soaked underbrush are why submersion must not allow water in. event is old news. once used up, cannot be retreated. when my winter bivi from black diamond stopped being waterproof at all, i spoke with them. it was used up. an mountain hardwares quark jacket was the same. fabrics like the eq treated ones, can be replenished with dwr. though never need it.
Matty, buy whatever gear you want and hike whatever way you want. If it works for you Amen! If you decide to sleep in an expensive sleeping bag laid bare on wet slushy snow I guess it make sense to have a WP sleeping bag. But Event IS NOT simply a DWR that washes or wears out! It doesn't just "get used up." AND, it can be retreated! I feel like an Event salesman, which I'm not, but you have to understand what Event is and how it acheives its waterprofness - it's a waterproof membrane and has a separate DWR top finish. Although the DWR may wear off the top fabric(layer) the WP membrane still keeps the fabric WP! The DWR top finish just adds to its performance characteristics. The DWR top finish can be restored by washing it back in to the top fabric w/ something like a Nikwax or Granger product. However, the performance characterstics of Event can be damaged if it's not cared for according to manufacturer's care labels. IMO, 3 layer Event IS NOT a fragile truely WP technology.
Not sure of the Black Diamond bivy you have and what you might have been told about it. I'm not totally positive of the point you are trying to make about the now discontinued Mountain Hardware Quark Jacket, but IT IS NOT made w/ Event. It has a proprietary membrane called Incite, a nylon tricot with a Conduit WP breathable 2.5 layer laminate.
I like a bivy (for splash) with a built-in bug net over most of the top of the bivy, while sleeping in a tarp.
I ventilate a tent well and I have the tarp or tent pitched so my feet do not touch the inner surface.
I like my down sleeping bag to be breathable so it will quickly fluff dry any moisture from me in the morning, while I pack up camp. There is moisture: the skin breathes.
I feel under most circumstances a breathable fabric down sleeping bag "dries" and packs quickly, if the tarp and bivy, or, tent and ground cloth are the right size for you and pitched right.
Doooglas
01-01-2010, 22:02
worst mistake youll make. and bad advise givin here. my marmott helium and col both have the eq coating. it aint crincly. it dosnt hold water in. and no fethers ever, ever , ever get wet. my condensation can wet the bag from the inside but only under one of three easily avoidable situations. one. you are in a bag too warm for the nights temps. unzip the foot and vent and remove your clothes.two. your just wearing too much clothing in the bag. and thee. you have a slight feaver and your sweating. best thing then is to put on tons of clothes and vent the bag top and bottom alot. now. as far as feathers being wet cumulativly from long wet hikes. no. the new exspensive marmott 900 and 950 and even the 850 downs are treated in a way these days and selected and sewn in in ways as to create virtualy no saftey difference to synthetics. yes damper at first while you warm up and body heat acheaves loft each night. but cold and compression cause most of that. and these new bags can handle it. as far as weight being a concern . the eq coating dosnt add any. duh. its a coating like dwr. it aint no membrane.
WOW.
One would assume after 4000 posts the typing, punctuation, and spelling might improve...............My eyes hurt.
Pacific Tortuga
01-01-2010, 22:16
WOW.
One would assume after 4000 posts the typing, punctuation, and spelling might improve...............My eyes hurt.
When you look at a tree, is all that you see, is the pinion in the pine ?
Matty, keep typing the way you feel it.
sleeping in my floorless tent without a groundcloth as i have all my life, slushy snow and soaked underbrush are why submersion must not allow water in. event is old news. once used up, cannot be retreated. when my winter bivi from black diamond stopped being waterproof at all, i spoke with them. it was used up. an mountain hardwares quark jacket was the same. fabrics like the eq treated ones, can be replenished with dwr. though never need it.
Matty, you're confusing eVent membrane (the same material as Gore-texwith Epic - PTFE) with Epic - a silicone treatment which encapsulates the fibers of the fabric it's applied to.
Whiskyjo
01-02-2010, 02:24
As far as goose down lasting. I was over at a friends house at Xmas. He showed me his old sleeping bag. It looked rough but then he told me he use it thru hiking the AT when he ran into Earl Shaffer on his first thru hike. It still had a little bit of loft and I bet lots of memories.
brooklynkayak
01-02-2010, 10:16
When you look at a tree, is all that you see, is the pinion in the pine ?
Matty, keep typing the way you feel it.
I agree. No trolling.
This is the wrong forum for that. Go find a writers forum if you like ragging on peoples grammar.
mweinstone
01-02-2010, 10:27
i did confuse event with epic. sorry. and i was compareing crap to crap when i mentioned the quark. but all faolures are wonderful new favorite gear choices at first. the quark was the coolest jacket i ever owned but fell apart and sucked and was the biggest rip off and troublemaker ever by the end. witch came fast. and my epic fabric winter bivi was truly wonderfull at first and still is used by wonder but cant be retreated. and my grammer hurts me too.
It's all good, Matty :).
You have a way of saying things that makes other people have to think just a little bit harder - and that's not a bad thing.
I had a MLD ul bivy with an in-house Epic-like treatment. It, like the reports I've read about Epic, was great until temps dropped below freezing, when whatever breathability it had tended to get plugged up by ice in the fabric structure. At that point it acted more like old coated nylon and condensation inside was considerable. Above 32 degrees, no problem. It kept splash off, but was a little tight, so I sold it to a friend who is a lot thinner than I am ;).
Caught myself again - grammar-wise - should be "aN" - not "a" MLD UL bivy - geez!
Note to self: PROOF READ! (I got too used to the "edit" function).
Wise Old Owl
01-02-2010, 12:29
best thing on the blog is the installable spell check... Proofreading just makes us all better posters.
You have a way of saying things that makes other people have to think just a little bit harder - and that's not a bad thing. Indeed! Not only do I have to think a little bit harder but I find I have to read your posts several times while squinting, squirming, and shaking my head often! Sometimes, I think they are hilarious. Sometimes, you lose me! I have no idea what you're saying!
no biggie ats the nerw year. lets be happy keep writing sometimes you jushave ta luff @ yourself
It takes a certain kind of individual to realize they were mistaken(that's one way in which we learn), correct themselves, and humbleness to be able to admit it publically. Besides, WB is about having an audience to offer our opinions, what we have found to be right for us, share some knowledge, and perhaps, a little hiking wisdom. That's what you are mostly doing. What anyone chooses to take away from the discussions or opinions here is up to them. I do make a good attempt at being accurate w/ technical data in my posts though. Nevertheless, it's probably a good practice to verify. For anyone, that includes myself, to mistakenly assume we always know what's right or know what's right for everyone is simply being egotistical, arrogant, and naive.
But, my grammar is better than yours!
mweinstone (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?u=7355)
Registered User
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/avatars/weekend-worrior.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php?u=7355)
Join Date: 12-30-2005
Location: philadelphia pennsylvania
View my gallery (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/browseimages.php?do=member&imageuser=7355) 32
Age: 48
Posts: 4,622
Images: 32 (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/browseimages.php?do=member&imageuser=7355)
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif
i did confuse event with epic.
I knew that - I'm psychotic! ;)