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leaftye
01-03-2010, 03:48
In the "miles per day" thread, some of you are talking about cutting steps into snowpacks. This makes me wonder, what type of footwear were you wearing?

I have normal gortex hiking boots that I've used in the snow before, but I don't know if these will be adequate after the leather gets soaked from days of hiking and postholing thru the snow.

Would it be reasonable to get overshoes like the Neos Navigator 5 or even get pac boots? I'm thinking I'd get both mailed to me around Kennedy Meadows. The overshoes may even be useful on some of the shallow river crossings.

I plan to start a little early, around April 1st, so I'm sure I'll be trudging thru a bit of snow. I just don't want to start so early that I'll need crampons or snowshoes.

burger
01-03-2010, 10:54
I'd say 90+% of thru-hikers I saw this year were wearing light trail runners (including me), and almost all of us wore our trail runners through the Sierras, too. Really, you're only on snow for a few miles before and after each pass. But you ford a zillion streams, and the trail is often under water, so you're feet are going to be wet for days on end. The problem with boots (or even gore-tex trail runners) is that once they get wet, they don't dry. Trail runners drain well and dry quickly. If you wear boots you're going to be carrying a couple of pounds of water in each shoe through the Sierras. Just stick with trail runners--you'll be fine.

Spirit Walker
01-03-2010, 12:39
I personally prefer to wear boots in snow because it is easier to kick steps in the snow than with sneakers. I also think they are warmer than running shoes and have better traction. But it is true that most PCT thruhikers just wear their running shoes even in the Sierras. You won't need pac boots or overboots for walking on the snow.

In a normal snow year, if you are there after the beginning of June, the snow is not continuous. There is snow for the last few miles around each pass, but not much if any in the valleys. The high passes are usually about 12-15 miles apart. The earlier you are the longer the snow patches will stretch. In a high snow year the snow may be almost continuous. Most thruhikers set up their day so they climb to the snowy passes late in the morning, while the snow is still fairly hard. If you reach the sierras early (before mid-June) you will be walking on top of the snow, not thru it. Unless, of course, you get a fresh snowfall as the hikers did last year.

Wheeler
01-03-2010, 13:34
I wore Asics, and they worked just fine. The one time I cut steps,I used my axe.That was hard ice, and kicking steps wouldn't have been an option,regardless of footwear.

Meta
01-03-2010, 13:41
runners both years. New Balance 811s in 2008, Asics Gel Kahana 3s in 2009. They worked great. I definitely advise against boots. Your feet will be wet and disgusting all day every day if you don't have runners.

And even if you do, they'll still be more than wet enough, but they'll be lighter (do you really want to hike in ankle weights?) both due to less retained water and lower initial weight.

Ultimately, the snow is soft enough to kick steps just fun with running shoes, so the primary reason for boots is lost. Some people personally prefer them and that's fine, but 95% of people use running shoes and would choose them again.

FYI I entered June 3rd in 2009 and June 5th in 2008, both in average snow years. Although in 2009 we had lots of fresh snow, it was still only a foot or two on top of snowpack so it wasn't bad.

leaftye
01-03-2010, 14:56
This sounds good so far. Saves me about a hundred bucks on footwear.

BrianLe
01-03-2010, 15:35
Before doing some shakedown/testing/training hikes in snow, the idea of walking any distance in snow wearing trail runners seemed crazy to me, but it now seems like the way to go ... depending on the specifics of the situation. For the Sierras, trail runners were perfect. Not goretex, but something that dries fast, breathes well. Wool socks of course, and a dry pair for sleeping, a pair of bread bags to let you wear the wet shoes over the dry socks in camp (still cold, but the socks stay dry).

If this makes you nervous, consider getting goretex socks, size them on the large size to cover wool socks (and account for foot growth on the trail ...).

I'm not certain you'll really save a lot of money on footwear given that trial runners (in general at least) don't last as many miles as beefier boots, but wearing sodden wet boots that take forever to dry --- and are heavy --- doesn't seem appealing to me at all.

leaftye
01-03-2010, 15:49
Brian, I'll be using a vapor barrier. :)

BrianLe
01-03-2010, 16:16
I have VB socks, but didn't bring them in the Sierras --- it didn't seem cold enough to warrant their use. For me, the bread bags were a nice backup, i.e., if I was feeling cold I could put them on over my liner socks and under my wool socks, but I only ended up using them in camp at night (and that just a couple of times and briefly). Bread bags are basically free, and weigh less than commercial VB socks.

I'm not trying to talk you out of bringing the VB socks, they'll certainly hold up better if conditions are different for you (and of course they could be) and you end up needing to walk in them for any length of time!

leaftye
01-03-2010, 16:29
They're not for everyone, but my feet do sweat a lot. At least I think they do. I'll be experimenting this winter to see how big of a difference VB socks make.

sbhikes
01-03-2010, 20:39
I never postholed in the snow. I may have broken through a few times here and there, but I never slogged around postholing. The snow is like cement in the Sierras, at least that is how I've heard it described. I've never lived where there is snow so I don't really know all the kinds there are. I wore trail runners. The lighter and faster drying the better. It's much nicer to have dry shoes to put on in the morning. Also, it's nice to have light shoes so you can dance quickly across the sun cups. I hate sun cups.

Miner
01-03-2010, 23:17
I never postholed in the snow. I may have broken through a few times here and there, but I never slogged around postholing. HA! Your lucky. Even several months latter, I still vividly remember postholing up to my thigh several times on the far side of Forrester Pass (which I summited at 2:45pm). I had to crawl forward to get out and my knee and ankles were pretty thrashed by the rocks underneath. I met up with a past thru-hiker this fall who told me how in 2008, he had a similar experience only it happened on Hike Nake Day and was, in his words, "a ball-busting" experience.

I wore trail runners and would do so again, however my feet were often soaked when I crossed snow so I had to use my wool sleep socks to keep my feet warm. My feet were cold when I tried using the same socks I used in the desert.

BrianLe
01-04-2010, 02:51
Yup, great reason to get up fairly early in the Sierras and get moving close to daylight --- to get over the next pass and back down a ways before the afternoon sun softens things up. Muir Pass was particularly bad, seemed like the snow lasted forever after passing the beehive-like hut.

Postholing down from Forrester Pass would suck, that's quite a ways down as I recall it!
An unattractive alternative would have been to do what, I think it was Boomer in 2008 claimed to have done: slept on top of Forrester. Not something I'd be inclined to try!

leaftye
01-04-2010, 05:44
How long are those trail running shoes lasting you guys? I hadn't really considered this until I read a journal about a guy that replaced his trail running shoes 4 times.

burger
01-04-2010, 10:08
How long are those trail running shoes lasting you guys? I hadn't really considered this until I read a journal about a guy that replaced his trail running shoes 4 times.
My New Balance 909's lasted 500 miles on average. I took one pair to 600 miles, and it was pretty painful for the last few days. But YMMV (literally!).

garlic08
01-04-2010, 11:50
750 miles is really pushing it for trail runners. I shoot for 600 and that works well most of the time, and I know I can push them to 700 if needed (NB 8XX). I made four changes on the PCT.

Dogwood
01-04-2010, 11:59
True, most PCTers do fine with lite wt. trailrunners. Might want to explore the option of trail runners with a thicker vibram or stiffer sole with agressive lugs for better traction on snow and ice and kicking steps on snow if you want and yes you you may want to. I went part way through the Sierras w/ lite wt trailrunners(Vasque Amps, very lite, lots of mesh, not warm, not very protective, very low cut(constantly had snow in them if I tried wearing them without gaiters), not great traction on snow, chose them for the desert, I started out in them) doing BianLe's bread bag set-up. However, I wasn't planning this! I had a lost resupply box that never made it to KM. Part way through the Sierras, I got my resupply box containing the old style Vasque Velocity XCRs trailrunners. No, they weren't 16 oz(pair), but they provided better traction on snow, had stiffer soles for kicking steps(I felt compelled to do so several times, I didn't carry an ice axe)and extra protection from sharp rocks, and they were WP. No, they didn't take forever to dry, they didn't feel like ankle wts, and most importantly they kept my feet dry and warmer through the rest of the Sierras. With the XCRs I only got my feet wet once because I wore then fording Evolution Creek. I saved the lighter wt. non WP trailrunners when I was doing bigger miles after the Sierras on cleaner tread under warmer conditions w/ a lighter pack. I also made four shoe changes on the PCT.

I think, as hikers, we have to reevaluate the belief that wearing something on our feet while hiking is an either or proposition between choosing the litest wt trail runners, which are really nothing more than beefier running sneakers, and old European style heavily constructed mountaineering Frankenstein wearing boots sometimes weighing 4 lbs or more taking significant time to break in. Now, more then ever, with the advances in design, construction, and materials, we have so many lighter wt shoes we can hike in that blur the lines between what has been traditionally thought of as a "boot" and a "sneaker" or a "hiking shoe."

Helmuth.Fishmonger
01-04-2010, 16:20
wear whatever you like to wear. I've met two retires old ladies on Silver Pass last summer wearing sandals, and they made it up across a hard snow slope I considered as one of the tougher sections that day in my heavy crampon-compatible La Sportiva boots. My son had trouble in his trail runners on snow, where his soles kept caking up with the white stuff and turned them into dangersous slip and slide shoes (North Face brand, $150 shoe recommended by locals in Bishop, junk in my view). He had hiking poles and with some patience he made it across all the dangerous early season snow, following the steps I cut in for him. For the rest of the trip he had the most comfortable shoes of our group, though. If you like trail runners and you go in early season, I'd bring some of those lightweight traction enhancing strap on thingies. Personally, I hate trail runners and am certain I'd end up with an ankle injury, probably because I am so used to wearing footwear that protects me from that, so I don't worry about where I step.

Helmuth.Fishmonger
01-04-2010, 16:25
here's what I wear - the climbing-oritented tight toe box is my only complaint, but you get used to it - not too heavy, will go anywhere. Done 3 JMTs in one pair and they appear good for another 3 or more. 1640 grams for the pair in my size 45 (11 US) - about twice your average trail runner, but it lasts a lot longer and I bet I'd break my knee before I hurt my ankle in it.

http://s3.backcountry.com/900/LSP/LSP0021/LSP0021-LSTRANRD.jpg

cheeks
01-05-2010, 09:33
Has anyone had any experience combining trail runners with Yak Traks?

BrianLe
01-05-2010, 13:01
My very limited experience with Yak Traks wasn't encouraging (come off too easily and/or okay in ice but not as useful in snow), and what I've heard from others was similar. Consider Kahtoola Microspikes (http://www.rei.com/product/774966), or Camp 6-point crampons (http://www.prolitegear.com/camp_6_point_steel.html)

Wheeler
01-05-2010, 13:20
I used Kahtoola Microspikes with my Asics and they worked fine.

Mags
01-05-2010, 18:34
Though meant for trail running, this article gives a great overview for traction devices for lighter footwear. (http://web.archive.org/web/20080503033404/http://www.mountainrunning.com/features/february_08/index.html) The only review missing is for in-step (4 pt) crampons. (http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___33054?CS_003=2477120&CS_010=33054) In-step crampons are a bit impractical for trailrunning and/or for some lighter footwear. However, if you use traditional boots, the four pt. crampons have proven to be a good option for hikers in icy, but non-technical, conditions.

You probably will not need any such device on the PCT (depending on how early you are/snowpack, etc)

cheeks
01-06-2010, 11:37
Thanks for the advice. I have heard that traction devices aren't generally necessary for the PCT, but I'd rather be a little over-prepared then under.

Wheeler
02-22-2010, 01:13
here's what I wear - the climbing-oritented tight toe box is my only complaint, but you get used to it - not too heavy, will go anywhere. Done 3 JMTs in one pair and they appear good for another 3 or more. 1640 grams for the pair in my size 45 (11 US) - about twice your average trail runner, but it lasts a lot longer and I bet I'd break my knee before I hurt my ankle in it.

http://s3.backcountry.com/900/LSP/LSP0021/LSP0021-LSTRANRD.jpg

I agree, you will prolly break your knee.