View Full Version : Barrels and Bear Rope: Dealing with that food
Johnny Thunder
01-03-2010, 22:41
As a person who only hangs when obligated by others...or, when there's a bear, I am interested in knowing how often people hung their food on the PCT. It just doesn't seem possible in some areas (at least not according to pictures). Also, what are the actual cannister rules? When are they necessary, if at all?
I'd read that you could simply stay at sites with bear boxes all the way through whatever stretch you "needed" cannisters and that worked fine. Is this the case? What will I miss if I stay at designated areas?
Chaco Taco
01-03-2010, 22:43
I too am wondering. In a book Im reading, a family carried a Ursack instead of a bear cannister. Have the rules changed?
I don't believe the Ursack is currently permitted. I'm wondering what I'm going to do if I have too much food to fit in my bear canister.
I thought you didn't have to hang bear canisters?
Johnny Thunder
01-03-2010, 22:48
Seriously, dude. I mean, if we can't hang how will we have bear-rope-hanging competitions?
"Nailed it."
I think not.
Definitely bring a bear cannister in the Sierras, the rules are tightening every year, and those bears are a different animal than bears along most of the rest of the way.
Other than that I think that very few people hang their food. It's a PITA, and I frankly think that of those that do, so many do it poorly that it's not necessarily better than sleeping with your food.
This topic gets a lot of passion. I slept with my food until the Sierras, and would do so again, not much to get at your food in the first 700 miles. Afterwards, I used an Ursack as I own one, and it's some peace of mind against rodents as well as bears. Bears getting at food north of the Sierras isn't that common; it certainly can and does happen, but I think a lot less than weekend hikers imagine and fear.
Still, it's about protecting the bears, not your food. In the area that I live I'll keep using my Ursack plus odor proof liner. Like everything, it's a compromise!
Note that you definitely do not hang a bear cannister (!). One of the best ways to damage one would be a significant drop. Put it in a depression in the ground somewhere a goodly ways away.
Too much food to fit in cannister --- different solutions to that. You can start out with your first days-worth of food outside the cannister, just make sure you eat it down before camping in a place that actually requires a can ... or indeed, learn where the bear lockers are and restrict your first night or two to such places. And/or leave the Sierras at some point to resupply to reduce how much you're carrying --- you've got more clothing and gear there too. I went out at Kearsarge Pass to Independence, and then resupplied from there at MTR (Muir Trail Ranch), and then went out again at Mammoth Lakes, the result was that I was carrying less food than a lot of others, though the Kearsarge Pass detour is a significant chunk. I'd still do that again, as I was also able to mail home some stuff I found I didn't need from there.
Chaco Taco
01-03-2010, 23:18
yea i knew the whole "hanging" was not really feasable out west. Im thinking along the lines of a Ursack in the desert, then switching to a canister through the Sierra, and oregon and going back to the Ursack in the second half of Oregon and Washington.
I also do agree with you that its not about protecting the food but protecting the bears!
I am also curious about the logistics of food protection in the desert. Is it basically plant your food out 200 or so feet from the camping? I realize there will be some campsites with the proper storage units but what about when you are between those areas?
I never hung my food once on the PCT though I normally always did so before I hiked it. Normally I slept with my food (not as a pillow, but kept it in arms reach), but I was picky about staying away from heavily used campsites and anyplace where I saw holes in the ground (thinking about rodents) like most meadows.
In the Sierras, I carried a bear can, but my overflow food I carried in one of those Odor Proof Sacks. I figured the food in the bearcan 20ft away would give off far stronger odors and lure the bear away just incase the odorless sack wasn't really odorless, but I also once again didn't camp in popular camps (especially places with known bear trouble). Unlike every other trip to the Sierras over the past 20years, I actually didn't see a bear there this year. In fact, the only bears I saw was a cub near Sierra City and one in northern Washington in the early afternoon running away from me. I violated my no heavily used campsite rule a couple of times and paide twice with mice trouble.
garlic08
01-04-2010, 11:04
I generally slept with my food other than in the Sierra, but hung it whenever I saw bear sign around. One notable night near Wrightwood, lots of bear sign in a developed campsite near a spring, I hung my food. I later heard that a thru hiker got his food stolen by a bear right from under his head at the same spot. So just use your head, so to speak, and all should be well.
mweinstone
01-04-2010, 11:21
deep in my underground lex luther like lare,..my illigal imagrant scientists are hard at work on a devise that renders the bearcan and the food bag moot.
psycological warfare thru sound. a small ipod sized devise produces the sound of tyranasaurus rex all night. inbetween their are sounds of mice burnning and the sounds of other rodents swinging from gallows.all in all, its going to change the fase of hiking, and wild animals.
Never hung my food. I stored my food in a trash compactor bag either inside my tent or right by the door.
You have to have a bear can through the Sierras. Most people carry them from around Kennedy Meadows or Horseshoe Meadows to Sonora Pass or Echo Lake. There are rangers that will ask to see it. I was asked more than once. Some people are never asked. There are bear boxes at campsites but it's a pain to limit yourself to these campsites. Still, it is an option.
I also did not see a single bear through the Sierras nor any sign of bears at all through there. A bear did get my canister at the campground in the town of Mammoth. Now I have some really cool teeth marks in it. Most bear sign I saw was in Section O. I saw bears in Southern California, Northern California and Oregon. They all ran away from me.
Many Walks
01-04-2010, 11:34
As a person who only hangs when obligated by others...or, when there's a bear, I am interested in knowing how often people hung their food on the PCT. It just doesn't seem possible in some areas (at least not according to pictures). Also, what are the actual cannister rules? When are they necessary, if at all?
I'd read that you could simply stay at sites with bear boxes all the way through whatever stretch you "needed" cannisters and that worked fine. Is this the case? What will I miss if I stay at designated areas?
I believe the only actual requirement for canisters is at Yosemite and canister rentals are available there. http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bearcanisters.htm (http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bearcanisters.htm) Otherwise I think you're generally safe to keep your food close to you, especially if you tend to avoid established campsites. Just pay attention to signs of bear activity in lower elevations and act accordingly. At higher elevations where it's more barren and hanging is difficult bears don't tend to occupy simply because they have less natural food. We learned in areas like highly populated Tahoe the bears don't tend to be on the trail on the ridge line because they are mostly in and around towns close to the lake breaking into homes and rummaging garbage cans for an easy meal. Just use common sense and you'll be fine. Enjoy your hike!
Spirit Walker
01-04-2010, 12:10
Postholer has the mile by mile list of where bear canisters are required, as of 2009. See http://postholer.com/faq.php#Canister It isn't just in Yosemite, though Yosemite is the longest stretch where there are no bear boxes as well. As Diane said, in southern SEKI there are bear boxes in some of the camp sites, but you probably won't want to restrict yourself to just those campsites. Besides, chances are the NPS will start removing those now that bear canisters are required.
There are several areas besides the Sierras where bears are likely to be seen It's like the AT. You won't just see bears in the Smokies and Shenandoahs. But outside the parks, most of the bears are more shy - except at the campgrounds, where they are used to finding easy food. Several of us saw bears in the Paiutes (south of Walker Pass), there was an active bear at the campground just before Wrightwood, I've seen bears on the PCT in Section P in northern California. Even so, most thruhikers do sleep with their food, partly out of laziness and partly because good hanging trees can be very hard to find. I had no problems with other animals though there was a mouse at the bridge at Cottonwood Creek who investigated my pack.
wandering_bob
01-04-2010, 12:34
Climber.org has the info you want.
http://climber.org/data/BearBoxes/AllBoxes.html
bear box regional index
bear box maps
http://www.climber.org/data/BearBoxes.html?MAP
bear boxes in the sierra
http://www.climber.org/data/BearBoxes.html#intro
From Cottonwood Pass to Arrowhead Lake, there are many bear boxes, and you can hike from one to another easily in a day. CAVEAT: this is a popular area and the box may be full when you arrive.
Once north of Arrowhead Lake between Glen and Mather Passes, the bear boxes are few and too far between to be reached with a single day's hike.
The rangers aren't fools. They read these forums too. Carry your canister. Keep the rangers happy and avoid a fine, or worse. The point has been well made earlier - you don't need to keep today's food in the canister.
If you still can't get everything in, use the odor-proof (OP) sacks, but don't volunteer to show them to the ranger as they are not legal food protection, although they are better than nothing. I always carry one for my trash, and replace it at each re-supply point, as they are fragile and easily cut or punctured.
Requiring bear canisters is becoming a fact of life for camping in the National Parks, especially those in the west. It's not just the Sierra NPs and NFs requiring them these days. Other NPs are catching on. Get ahead of the curve.
I did the typical sleep with the food, then switched to canister between KM and Tahoe. Never had any problems. The cannister wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, makes a great seat!
One thing about Ursacks: friends of mine had theirs ripped opened as well as their tent and other gear dragged away during the night. Moral of story, use a canister and don't camp near Tuolomne Meadows!
Requiring bear canisters is becoming a fact of life for camping in the National Parks, especially those in the west. It's not just the Sierra NPs and NFs requiring them these days. Other NPs are catching on. Get ahead of the curve.
Rocky Mtn NP just started this procedure May 1st, 2009 for any below treeline camping in the late spring through late fall. (http://www.rmnpguide.com/news-archive/2-rmnp/189-bear-canisters-now-required-in-rocky-mountain-national-park.html) I personally think it is using a hammer to squash an ant...but regardless of how I or others feel, it IS the fact on the ground and has to be dealt with accordingly.
Luckily, many outfitters around national parks now rent bear canisters.
Luckily for me, there are also other areas in CO besides RMNP that have less bureaucracy (the rangers always question my route and say it is physically too difficult for me. :rolleyes:), an easier permit system, and do not require a bear canister. ;)
For PCT hikers, there is a bear canister loaner program:
http://postholer.com/faq.php#canLoaner
If you are not on a budget ( the loaner is done via a BY NEED basis), Bear Vault will sell a bear canister for $65 (s&h included) and will ship it directly to a place of your choosing. Pretty good price and easy logistics for the PCT.
Johnny Thunder
01-04-2010, 13:41
Is that $65 Bear Vault up to standards at most parks?
I planned on renting one but since this'll be part of a longer cross-country trip it makes sense to buy one (given the current state of things in the NPs).
Is that $65 Bear Vault up to standards at most parks?
Most definitely.
http://www.bearvault.com/bearvault_pct.php
http://www.bearvault.com/bearvault_details.php
I'm glad somebody brought this up, because I wouldn't have thought of the food hanging problem. Is hanging your food bag from a tree really that impossible to do out there? I guess in the desert it makes sense. I just hadn't thought of it for other areas.
What would you do if a mouse happened to start gnawing late in the night?
Jester2000
01-04-2010, 18:47
I did the typical sleep with the food, then switched to canister between KM and Tahoe. Never had any problems. The cannister wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, makes a great seat!
This was exactly what I did. Worked fine, no problems. I was asked by a ranger if I had one the first night after entering Yosemite. Didn't see a bear the entire time I was in the park.
Chaco Taco
01-04-2010, 22:52
I'm glad somebody brought this up, because I wouldn't have thought of the food hanging problem. Is hanging your food bag from a tree really that impossible to do out there? I guess in the desert it makes sense. I just hadn't thought of it for other areas.
What would you do if a mouse happened to start gnawing late in the night?
Ursacks, its made of the same material as bulletproof vests and smell proof
Jester2000
01-04-2010, 23:18
Ursacks, its made of the same material as bulletproof vests and smell proof
I want to look into something that's made of the same material as a bear.
Chaco Taco
01-04-2010, 23:25
I want to look into something that's made of the same material as a bear.
When I first read this i thought you said "...the same as Beer."
Johnny Thunder
01-04-2010, 23:27
When I first read this i thought you said "...the same as Beer."
It can be done. Yeasts are cool like that.
Chaco Taco
01-04-2010, 23:36
It can be done. Yeasts are cool like that.
Hops basket with a barley rope:-?
Chance09
02-12-2010, 14:54
how bad are rodents on the PCT? i was looking into getting the other ursack food bag. The one that is only rodent proof, not bear proof. the 2 or 3 ounces to keep out anything but bears sounds worth it. I still haven't patched the hole some critter put in my food bag on the AT and i think i would rather not have to worry about it.
Jester2000
02-12-2010, 15:46
how bad are rodents on the PCT? i was looking into getting the other ursack food bag. The one that is only rodent proof, not bear proof. the 2 or 3 ounces to keep out anything but bears sounds worth it. I still haven't patched the hole some critter put in my food bag on the AT and i think i would rather not have to worry about it.
I never had a problem with them, probably because the lack of shelters causes more dispersed camping.
Keep in mind if you're thru-hiking that there are places that require either a bear-proof container or that you stay only in places that have bear boxes.
There are some rodents along the PCT. I found some twice running around my camp and their persistance made me move my campsite in the dark several hundred yards away. I also found a phantom hole in the bottom of my hipbelt pockets that I suspect may have been done by one when I allowed granola crumbs to accumulate inside for too long. I know of several people who had a couple encounters with them. One chewed threw the mesh on a tent to get inside.
But mostly, rodents aren't an issue. If you don't use popular heavily used campsites, don't camp in meadows, don't camp near holes in the ground, you shouldn't have any problems. All the problems I heard violated one of those rules. My own problems happened when I chose to camp in a heavily impacted campsite next to a small lake or a waterfall.
handlebar
02-13-2010, 12:16
how bad are rodents on the PCT? i was looking into getting the other ursack food bag. The one that is only rodent proof, not bear proof. the 2 or 3 ounces to keep out anything but bears sounds worth it. I still haven't patched the hole some critter put in my food bag on the AT and i think i would rather not have to worry about it.
Like others posting in response, I slept with my food except from Kennedy Meadows to S Lake Tahoe where I used the BV500. BearVault has a deal for PCT thru hiker---special price and they ship the cannister to KM. About half the time it was next to me on tyvek as I slept under the stars. The rest of the time it was in my tarptent.
I only had one issue with a mouse and that was at Hemlock Camp in WA about 7 miles before the bus stop for Stehekin. I attribute that incident to being in a "developed" camp. I think that, the campground we used as a base camp for the Mt. Whitney climb, and the campground in Stehekin (highly recommend this one) were the only developed campsites I slept in for the whole trail. Fortunately I heard the mouse scratching around my food bag which, as usual, was on the edge of my tyvek. After two rounds of shooing it away and it returning, I finally clipped it to the clothesline hanging between two trees over my camp and enjoyed watching it attempt to tightrope over the line and try, unsuccessfully, to climb over the biner. YMMV
Rusticus
09-19-2010, 19:20
In sequioa and yosemite is it required that you carry a canister if you plan on only using campsites with lockers?
wandering_bob
09-19-2010, 19:36
Most backcountry campgrounds have only one locker for the entire site. There is no guarentee there will be space in the locker when you arrive. Or the locker may have been damaged or simply removed - Sequoia NP has been doing that of late. Then what?:-?
The backpackers' campgrounds at Tuolumne Meadows and Little Yosemite Valley each have one bear locker per individual campsite, so you're golden there. I can't say what the other Yosemite campgrounds have. Going north on the PCT out of Tuolumne Meadows, I didn't see a single bear locker all the way to the northern park boundary, and that's way to far to cover in one day. Ditto from the southern boundary at Donohue Pass to Tuolumne Meadows.:eek:
The distance between campgrounds (and bear lockers) - especially in Sequoia NP - can sometimes exceed your ability to cover in a single day. Then what?:-?
Carry the canister and never have to worry about Yoggy, the ranger, or rangerette.:D
Jester2000
09-20-2010, 02:54
In sequioa and yosemite is it required that you carry a canister if you plan on only using campsites with lockers?
The backpackers' campgrounds at Tuolumne Meadows and Little Yosemite Valley each have one bear locker per individual campsite, so you're golden there. I can't say what the other Yosemite campgrounds have. Going north on the PCT out of Tuolumne Meadows, I didn't see a single bear locker all the way to the northern park boundary, and that's way to far to cover in one day. Ditto from the southern boundary at Donohue Pass to Tuolumne Meadows.:eek:
The distance between campgrounds (and bear lockers) - especially in Sequoia NP - can sometimes exceed your ability to cover in a single day. Then what?:-?
People use the word "plan" in different ways. You might say, "it's my intention to only stay at camps with bear lockers." But if you actually try to "plan" it, you'll probably realize it's not a very good plan.
For example, as Wandering Bob notes, the mileages are a bit unrealistic. There are bear lockers at Glen Aulin, north of Tuolumne. But then you have 50 more miles until you leave the Park at Dorothy Lake Pass. I wouldn't suggest planning on doing that in one day.
Plan on carrying a canister.
how bad are rodents on the PCT?
How were they?
Chance09
09-23-2010, 10:57
I only had rodent problems twice
Chance09
09-23-2010, 13:17
Bear cannisters for thru hikers are pointless. I like the concept and I'm all for keeping bears wild but when I can only fit three days of food in my bear cannister and I'm carrying 8, what's the point? I met a JMTer who had 15 days of food in his. 4 bars and one little meal to rehydrate for dinner.
If I did the PCT again I'd buy the smallest legal one, Since having one you can fit all your food in is impossible
Jester2000
09-23-2010, 15:57
Bear cannisters for thru hikers are pointless. I like the concept and I'm all for keeping bears wild but when I can only fit three days of food in my bear cannister and I'm carrying 8, what's the point? I met a JMTer who had 15 days of food in his. 4 bars and one little meal to rehydrate for dinner.
If I did the PCT again I'd buy the smallest legal one, Since having one you can fit all your food in is impossible
I managed to fit all of my food in mine. I went out at Kearsarge to Independence, and also resupplied at VVR.
Dicentra
09-24-2010, 15:17
Bear cannisters for thru hikers are pointless. I like the concept and I'm all for keeping bears wild but when I can only fit three days of food in my bear cannister and I'm carrying 8, what's the point? I met a JMTer who had 15 days of food in his. 4 bars and one little meal to rehydrate for dinner.
If I did the PCT again I'd buy the smallest legal one, Since having one you can fit all your food in is impossible
I have a Garcia can and I can do up to 10 days worth of food in mine. It is all about re-packaging and carefully packing the can so there is no wasted space.
It should be noted that hanging your food in the Sierra is not considered legal.:-? Why? It kills bears and endangers other hikers....:(
Chance09
09-26-2010, 16:14
weird, when i went through only the thru hikers had bear cannisters. all of the weekenders/sectioners were hanging food. Really pissed me off because I had thought that it was a rule to have them yet here I am with one and I couldn't fit all my food in it anyways essentially making it useles.
There wasnt anyone out to enforce it and that might have been why. When we went through it was still another week or two before the rangers were out for the summer.
In all honesty I slept with my food almost the whole time in the Sierra's. I only saw one bear on that section of the trail and 10 for the rest. I did avoid most major campsites though.
Helmuth.Fishmonger
10-04-2010, 10:39
Ursacks, its made of the same material as bulletproof vests and smell proof
smell proof? what have you been smoking?
Helmuth.Fishmonger
10-04-2010, 10:46
It should be noted that hanging your food in the Sierra is not considered legal.:-? Why? It kills bears and endangers other hikers....:(
misinformation above.
"Not legal in the Sierra" is completely incorrect. It is actually totally legal in half of Kings Canyon NP and in wilderness areas other than the Whitney Zone. The rules are not consistent across the Sierra Crest and there are many areas where canisters are not required.
now that said, it also is pretty much known to rangers that hanging is pointless when there is a bear and it is interested in your food. Thus they "recommend" to use canisters in those areas as well, but it is not mandatory.
You can hang food north of Pinchot Pass all the way to Donohue Pass, with the exception of Devil's Post Pile, but there are bear lockers in that area.
South of Pinchot you can't hang, but you will find some bear lockers, although since you cannot guarantee that you will always camp at one of those (weather, injury), you better have that canister in that area to remain flexible. You'll also need a canister if you want to spend a night anywhere east of Crabtree Meadows on the way up to Mt. Whitney.
Helmuth.Fishmonger
10-04-2010, 10:55
Bear cannisters for thru hikers are pointless. I like the concept and I'm all for keeping bears wild but when I can only fit three days of food in my bear cannister and I'm carrying 8, what's the point?
not sure how much you eat, but you may just get a bigger canister if you need to stay out more days. The Bearikade Expedition holds 10 days for me easily, probably 12 if I really pack tight.
Montana AT05
10-13-2010, 21:15
I never hang my food, and I live in grizzly country. I pack my food in odor proof bags (op-saks) which are ruggidized versions of zip-locks. Never had a problem.
People can rarely find ideal hanging conditions for food and most bear issues occur in heavil used areas of day-use, overnighters. On a thru just try to avoid those spots.
I can't stand bear canisters due to their size, weight and tie-in to ever increasing regulations.
Helps that I am stoveless and don't cook too.
Just use your common sense, it's worth more than any number of committees and land-use experts combined. Also, remember that the biggest push for bear country regulations (aka canisters) comes from California...the state that now ranks 50th (which means "last place" in case you think there are 58 states in the union) for business growth--all thanks to regulation piled on regulation.
Jusy say no to the increasing regulations, committees, awards, certificates, et al around trails. Some are good, most are bureaucratic.
Jester2000
10-13-2010, 22:34
Just use your common sense, it's worth more than any number of committees and land-use experts combined. Also, remember that the biggest push for bear country regulations (aka canisters) comes from California...the state that now ranks 50th (which means "last place" in case you think there are 58 states in the union) for business growth--all thanks to regulation piled on regulation.
Jusy say no to the increasing regulations, committees, awards, certificates, et al around trails. Some are good, most are bureaucratic.
As suggested, I used my common sense and found that in this particular case 50th doesn't mean last, mainly because they treat DC as a state. So last place would be Nevada.
No word on what regulations in National Parks have to do with states, or whether one is required to carry a bear canister at the Jack Nicklaus-designed Bear's Best Golf Course in Las Vegas.
Montana AT05
10-13-2010, 23:07
Last I heard CA won the title of least business friendly--so I should have used that wording than what I did. And it is due to excessive regulation. That was one month ago.
And I don't need to use a bear cannister in Yellowstone (hour south of me)...at least not yet...but in established sites you need to secure your food properly (bear box, car trunk, etc), and THAT is common sense. So National Park regs maybe differ from state to state?
Jester2000
10-14-2010, 10:32
Last I heard CA won the title of least business friendly--so I should have used that wording than what I did. And it is due to excessive regulation. That was one month ago.
And I don't need to use a bear cannister in Yellowstone (hour south of me)...at least not yet...but in established sites you need to secure your food properly (bear box, car trunk, etc), and THAT is common sense. So National Park regs maybe differ from state to state?
National Park Regs differ from park to park, and have more to do with the management plan in place than where they are. For example, in Yellowstone there is a backcountry designated camping system in place, which means that they can have food storage poles at most of the places people will sleep.
They release you from the requirement to carry a canister, but regulate where you can and can't camp, and what your itinerary is.
I suspect (knowing its history) that Yellowstone's decisions regarding concentration vs. dispersal have more to do with fire safety than bears. I won't criticize or second-guess their decisions, but I will note that controlling where I go seems far more restrictive regulation-wise than telling me I have to carry a canister.
trailangelbronco
10-21-2010, 23:28
I wish that I didn't have to use bear canisters where I hike. I hate the big heavy damn things, but better than a grizzly visit. My habit is to place it in a depression at least a 1/4 mile from my tent, and away from any berries.