Privy Question

[prain4u]

I have done lots of hiking. However, I have not hiked much of the AT.

In looking at pictures on WhiteBlaze---I noticed that there seem to be many pictures of three-sided privies.

Just a silly question: Is there any particular reason why they don't put a door or a partial wall on the fourth side? I am guessing that there is some logic behind it (such as it requires less construction materials to be carried in to the construction site).

This silly question will probably generate 2-3 serious answers from people who actually help build privies or help maintain them. The rest of the answers will probably provide us all with some very interesting mid-winter entertainment!

[Old Grouse]

Another thing that I find curious (not to hijack this thread) is why there are so many pictures of privies to be seen here. Surrounded by the majesty of nature, this is what people focus on?

[World-Wide]

Another thing that I find curious (not to hijack this thread) is why there are so many pictures of privies to be seen here. Surrounded by the majesty of nature, this is what people focus on?

The views are probably to keep the focus off the cheez-whiz, gravy and bacon bit mashed potato dinner you had the night before and now leaving your body! :eek: W-W

[prain4u]

Another thing that I find curious (not to hijack this thread) is why there are so many pictures of privies to be seen here. Surrounded by the majesty of nature, this is what people focus on?


I was wondering that as well. I guess they could be considered some of the crappy scenary on the AT!

[bigcranky]

Always nice to have a privy with a view. Seriously.

[Rockhound]

generally the 3 sided privies have some great views. Besides, modesty really has no place on the trail. Why waste resources building 4th walls just so a few hikers who are overly concerned that other hikers might accidentally catch a split second glance of what God did or didn't endow them with? Nobody cares. Not sure how you are equiped but chances are that mountain is a much more spectacular view.

[peakbagger]

Heres my attempt to give a serious answer based on pure speculation. Using a privy without a roof in the rain and wind is less than pleasant, as anyone who has used the open privies in NJ can attest. To add a roof that is going to last requires 4 poles to support the four corners of the roof. If you want to keep the structure from racking, you need cross braces or siding on at least two walls. Generally most sites have prevailing winds that probably vary about 120 degrees direction of travel, therefore to be sheltered from wind and blowing rain, you also need at least two walls set at 45 degees to the wind. If the wind varies much more, than three walls is probably optimal. When you get to the fourth side of the structure, unless it wasnt aligned correctly, the door is strictly for privacy. Adding a door to the structure requires a heavier structure as the door is cantilevered out from the corner which can introduce stess at the point where the door is hinged and can also try to tip the entire structure forward unless its anchored to a foundation which increases the complexity. Adding a door also restricts ventilation and seems to encourage debris and insect accumulation.

Sounds like a good disertation topic for some college student:rolleyes:

[World-Wide]

I have done lots of hiking. However, I have not hiked much of the AT.

In looking at pictures on WhiteBlaze---I noticed that there seem to be many pictures of three-sided privies.

Just a silly question: Is there any particular reason why they don't put a door or a partial wall on the fourth side? I am guessing that there is some logic behind it (such as it requires less construction materials to be carried in to the construction site).

This silly question will probably generate 2-3 serious answers from people who actually help build privies or help maintain them. The rest of the answers will probably provide us all with some very interesting mid-winter entertainment!


Heres my attempt to give a serious answer based on pure speculation. Using a privy without a roof in the rain and wind is less than pleasant, as anyone who has used the open privies in NJ can attest. To add a roof that is going to last requires 4 poles to support the four corners of the roof. If you want to keep the structure from racking, you need cross braces or siding on at least two walls. Generally most sites have prevailing winds that probably vary about 120 degrees direction of travel, therefore to be sheltered from wind and blowing rain, you also need at least two walls set at 45 degees to the wind. If the wind varies much more, than three walls is probably optimal. When you get to the fourth side of the structure, unless it wasnt aligned correctly, the door is strictly for privacy. Adding a door to the structure requires a heavier structure as the door is cantilevered out from the corner which can introduce stess at the point where the door is hinged and can also try to tip the entire structure forward unless its anchored to a foundation which increases the complexity. Adding a door also restricts ventilation and seems to encourage debris and insect accumulation.

Sounds like a good disertation topic for some college student:rolleyes:

Hey Prain4u....looks like we got one of those 3 serious answers you were looking for!! :D W-W

[Speer Carrier]

When the new privy was built at the Low Gap shelter in Georgia, it was built with no roof. Reason? The forest service does not allow roofs on privies in wilderness areas.

[Trail Bug]

Hike the AT in TN and you don't have to worry much about privies as they are hard to find. This was one of the better ones. http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=37073

[wudhipy]

Wow......and it thought privy walls were there to accomodate those that composed poetry while on the trail..................ever read some of the writings, pretty cool stuff.:-?

[Hikes with a stick]

It has no door so you can tell if its occupied or not...

There is no door to discourage people from spending the night in there.

If there was a door, wild animals(bears, racoons, deer, cows, monkeys, humans) would destroy the shelter trying to get inside.

[warraghiyagey]

When the new privy was built at the Low Gap shelter in Georgia, it was built with no roof. Reason? The forest service does not allow roofs on privies in wilderness areas.
That's so god can make sure you're not doing anything naughty i there. . .

[World-Wide]

If there was a door, wild animals(bears, racoons, deer, cows, monkeys, humans) would destroy the shelter trying to get inside.


Don't forget about the horny kangaroos!!! :D W-W

http://images.travelpod.com/users/charmedlife/rtw-2006.1169747880.outback-outhouse-userx-cape-range.jpg

[Rain Man]

Just a silly question: Is there any particular reason why they don't put a door or a partial wall on the fourth side? I am guessing that there is some logic behind it (such as it requires less construction materials to be carried in to the construction site).

I've seen more than one privy with the door torn off the hinges, presumably from some of the fierce wind storms in the mountains. So maybe leaving the door off to start with is wise?

I'm happy in small privies not to feel claustrophobic, which a spider-covered door a few inches from your nose can induce. Also happy for critters not to find a nice sheltered, enclosed place to take up permanent residence! Just visit the privy at Sassafras Gap Shelter for an example.

Photos of privies? Seems natural to me! They are an important part of the experience and facilities! I find it funny that any AT enthusiast would NOT appreciate information (a photo speaks a thousand words) about the AT. Just compare the privy at Albert Mountain with the privy at The Scales. THAT is valuable information, much more valuable than undated pics of unnamed sites thousands of miles away from the AT. Just my opinion, of course.
old privy at Albert Mountain (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=4615)
privy at The Scales (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=38278)

Rain:sunMan

.

[Spokes]

The very first privy entering New Jersey NOBO didn't have any walls just an elevated box with a toilet seat (providing a 360-degree iMax view).

[brocken spectre]

I would guess too that the door would be the first thing to break anyway. Most bus station toilets would attest to that.

[bulldog49]

No door means better ventilation. Better ventilation means less containment of noxious odors.

[Pony]

[QUOTE=Hikes with a stick;945490]
There is no door to discourage people from spending the night in there.
QUOTE]

Man, how bad would the weather have to be to spend the night in a privy?

At one of the shelters in the Smokies (Peck's Corner, I think) the walls only come up chest high and is right by the trail leading back to the AT. On our way out we passed the privy and there was a guy sitting in it. We all said hi and then all laughed at the situation. No one was embarrassed, it was just funny.

[Blissful]

There's one in VA that has no walls at all. Just the screen of a lone pine tree...

[Rain Man]

Man, how bad would the weather have to be to spend the night in a privy?

You laugh, but when I saw the new privy at Punchbowl Shelter this summer, I was amazed. Big. Clean. Light.

In a storm, I would've considered it high on the "any port" category!

Rain:sunMan

.

[bigcranky]

[QUOTE=Hikes with a stick;945490]

Man, how bad would the weather have to be to spend the night in a privy?


Some of the new privies, like the two-holer at Scales, would make a pretty good shelter in a bad storm.

[leaftye]

I gotta do that trail just to see if there's really a 2000+ mile trail with shelters and toilets.

[BobTheBuilder]

Just compare the privy at Albert Mountain with the privy at The Scales.
.

The second one is much nicer, but I don't know if I could hold it all the way from Albert Mountain to The Scales. :D

[Dancer]

http://i656.photobucket.com/albums/uu288/bkpkchck/Maryland/S6300964.jpgThe privy at the Ed Garvey Shelter in Maryland doesn't have a door and the walls don't go all the way to the floor or roof. It's elevated and looks right off the side of the ridge. Beautiful view and situated so someone would have to walk around it to see inside. The person sitting there would be forewarned.

[Doctari]

Over mountain shelter privy had neither walls nor roof in 08. And I've been to a few others similarly built, so 3 walls & a roof is 5 star in my book.
Add a door & we are talking palace. That said: the privy at Fontana shelter has: 4 walls a roof & a door, flush toilets & showers. Privy Heaven???

[prain4u]

Man, how bad would the weather have to be to spend the night in a privy?

The accommodations are not so bad when they let me spend the night on the main floor of the privy. However, it really stinks when they rent me some space in the basement!

[Old Grouse]

"...5 star in my book."

Maybe that's what we need in the guidebooks. Privies rated 0-5 stars. After all, Rain Man's made a case for this being worthwhile information.

[waywardfool]

I had an interesting experience at the Scales last June. Wind blowing hard....reverse draft on the chimney stack...nice cool breeze across your buns....coming up from the pit...but the smell blowing up around you from the pit...didn't take long to do the business.

Personal opinion on privies, I hate them. I'd rather go off trail.

[Graywolf]

Why a privy?? I thought we are out there to experience nature..Well, we in nature, we are walking in nature, we slep in nature...So whe have to take a crap!!! Sounds pretty natural to me!!!!

Ok, Ok, That said, I was amazed at the privys I saw/used on the trail..I was actually thinking they would all be just a toilet over a whole, but when I saw the ones I used, they were pertty well built..4 sided, with one side not completely covered...Very nice in my opinion..

[chiefduffy]

A guy I was hiking with was forced to set up his tent very near a privy in the smokies, no other spots available. He said you'd be surprised how many hikers tended to want have conversations with him while they were seated.

[v5planet]

A guy I was hiking with was forced to set up his tent very near a privy in the smokies, no other spots available. He said you'd be surprised how many hikers tended to want have conversations with him while they were seated.

At first read this is surprising, and then upon a moment's reflection, not at all... I think my entirely family routinely talks on the phone while sittin' on the john. Any standards of civilized propriety holding back this perfectly natural human desire to talk at all times wash away in the wilderness.

[MikenSalem]

Somehow sitting over 500 gallons of crap would makes me not want a door to hold in the smell...........

[leaftye]

You laugh, but when I saw the new privy at Punchbowl Shelter this summer, I was amazed. Big. Clean. Light.

You know you have a hardon for the ultralight fad when you care how much a privy weighs.

[fredmugs]

1580 miles in and I've slept in more shelters (6?) than I've used privies. Hmmmm.

[Doctari]

Privy Monster of 08 got his trail name because he spent the night (due to very bad weather. He had a January 1st start.) in the Wayah Bald privy.

[Cosmo]

One reason for open privies is they are technically not "structures". That means they do not have to comply to universal accessibility standards, other than the height of the seat. No doorway clearances, turning radius' etc.

Personally, I enjoy the open air models (I usually prop the door open when I use the enclosed ones anyway--when I won't upset other hikers). In the absence of good reading material, I'd rather look at the woods than the inside of a door. Generally best to use the things for #2 anyway, and some of the composting/mouldering ones work best w/o urine making things too wet...

Now you know,

Cosmo

[leaftye]

That's a pretty good reason for them to design it that way. I think it'd be pretty dumb if they were forced to make it handicap accessible because it was classified as a structure. Surely if someone handicap were on the trail, they'd be able to get into the privy with hardly any difficulty.

[LIhikers]

Along the AT privys come in many shapes, sizes, and designs.
There is no standard privy. The nicest one I've seen so far is on the private land with the secret shelter in Vermont.

[paradoxb3]

"...5 star in my book."

Maybe that's what we need in the guidebooks. Privies rated 0-5 stars. After all, Rain Man's made a case for this being worthwhile information.

i recall reading on here somewhere that one year someone carried along some sheets of those sticker stars, and left a star rating on every privy they used along the trail. :)

[Cosmo]

1580 miles in and I've slept in more shelters (6?) than I've used privies. Hmmmm.

Oh, that's what I stepped in on my hike last summer? I was wondering how that got there!

[traildust]

I think it was at Cove Mountain Shelter in 05. They were closing the old privy, it had reached it full potential, full to the brim, and they had a new one ready to go but before they could open it they had to put in a handicapped ramp.

[weary]

All the privies in Maine have four sides and a roof, one side of which contains a door. Most also have a half moon cut in the door for viewing the scenery and for ventilation. We have yet to loose a door to the wind. The new privies tend to be built all above ground to speed up the decay of wastes, which makes handicap access extra difficult. A wheel chair bound hiker often would find it difficult to get to the door. Don't tell the government. Sometimes we perch a rebuilt old privy above the new "mouldering vault" so we don't have to comply with handicap rules.

No one has complained. Probably because inspectors are rare in the Maine woods. Also, so far no one has gotten within a couple of miles of a Maine trail privy while driving in a wheelchair.

We have moved all shelters from roadside areas to a couple of miles up a mountain. We claim it is to prevent weekend parties. But it helps also to keep complainers away.

As for those who prefer to use the forest duff for depositing wastes, that is great as long as you do your thing well away from campsites. Experience has shown that very few do so. Many of the campsites I experienced in the south were blighted by great piles of ***** and related blossoms of paper.

The condition was both grossly repugnant and unhealthy -- many times more unhealthy, I suspect, than drinking untreated water from a trailside spring.

Weary

[ShelterLeopard]

I have done lots of hiking. However, I have not hiked much of the AT.

In looking at pictures on WhiteBlaze---I noticed that there seem to be many pictures of three-sided privies.

Just a silly question: Is there any particular reason why they don't put a door or a partial wall on the fourth side? I am guessing that there is some logic behind it (such as it requires less construction materials to be carried in to the construction site).

This silly question will probably generate 2-3 serious answers from people who actually help build privies or help maintain them. The rest of the answers will probably provide us all with some very interesting mid-winter entertainment!

The simplest reason I can think of, is: have you ever smelled a four sided privy in the summer? Very good reason right there for only three sides. I think animals get trapped inside as well.

That aside, some of the privies in Maine of beautiful! Some don't even smell, and it's actually a pleasure just to be inside.

[ShelterLeopard]

I used to be very anti-privy (the gung-ho, I-don't-need-a-privy, I'm-too-tough thing), then I came to Maine and became a convert.

[ChinMusic]

.....and they had a new one ready to go but before they could open it they had to put in a handicapped ramp.
This is just nuts. When someone told me that it was law that AT privies had to have a handicap ramp, I thought they were joking.

If someone can GET to these privies they certainly could get up a couple steps. The ramp actually makes if more dangerous for those that use the privy. The slope, combined with ice, is an accident waiting to happen.

[D'Artagnan]

No door means better ventilation. Better ventilation means less containment of noxious odors.

Ding, ding, ding... I think we have a winner! :D

[spunky]

If federal monies are used to build a "structure" (privy) then it must meet ADA requirements (handicapped accessible), which is the reason for the extraordinary privy at Thomas Knob Shelter.

My thoughts are that if a physically handicapped individual can make it to one of those shelters then he/she shouldn't have a problem entering the privy.

Like a lot of others said, I don't like the door "in my face"! If it has a door, I'll leave it open. and no, I'm not claustrophic... Smell is better too!

The ones with partial walls make it easier to see if it's occupied before actually walking all the way to the privy too! :)

[weary]

If federal monies are used to build a "structure" (privy) then it must meet ADA requirements (handicapped accessible), which is the reason for the extraordinary privy at Thomas Knob Shelter.
Federal money has nothing to do with it. The law says that all structures created for the use of the public must be handicap accessible. MATC (Maine Appalachian Trail Club) gets no funds for privy construction. But we still must comply.

Weary, (whose role in life, increasingly, seems to be "to keep the debate honest.")

Weary

[ChinMusic]

Let's see:

"I've hiked 20 miles into the woods, over mountains, across creeks, dodged uncountable roots, rocks, and blowdowns. Now if ONLY they had a ramp I could use the privy"

[Pony]

So, I understand, in the absence of privies that a "toilet area" is a good idea to keep the excrement in one area, but am I the only one who thinks of these toilet areas as minefields? I don't mind that there's no privy, but I stay away from the toilet areas.

[weary]

So, I understand, in the absence of privies that a "toilet area" is a good idea to keep the excrement in one area, but am I the only one who thinks of these toilet areas as minefields? I don't mind that there's no privy, but I stay away from the toilet areas.
As do many hikers. That's why shelters and camping areas without privies have piles of poop and toilet paper scattered everywhere.

[GrubbyJohn]

my first experince with an AT privy was at rice field shelter 1 wall and a trash can full of mulch......

[ShelterLeopard]

my first experince with an AT privy was at rice field shelter 1 wall and a trash can full of mulch......

That's the best kind!

[AeroGuyDC]

I hate to start a new thread on this, so i'll post it here first.

When no privy is available, and the you've "got one touching your underwear," do you pull out a trowel and dig a hole, do your business, and cover it up? Or do you just find a remote area to do the deed and carry on about your hike?

The reason I ask, is because in the thread about "trail annoyances" several poster's mentioned stumbling on piles of crap and toilet paper. Quite frankly, this surprised me as I thought it was common courtesy to dig a hole and then cover it all up.

What's your take?

[ShelterLeopard]

I did a hole.

[Tinker]

This thread inspired me to post this picture:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=38902&catid=member&imageuser=2502

[ShelterLeopard]

This thread inspired me to post this picture:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=38902&catid=member&imageuser=2502

The locals come and stake out seats on Saturday nights with popcorn and beer and make an evening of it.

[GGS2]

On a canoe trip on a large, northern river in Alberta (two guesses), I came to a native fish camp, deserted at that time of year. I pulled in for a portage (the proper portage point was a mile or two away, but I was unfamiliar with the area), and began exploring for the trail. I passed into a clearing beside the preparation area, which absolutely stank of fish, even a month or two away from the nearest harvest season, and wondered what went on there. I was in the middle of the clearing, maybe fifty yards in, when I realized there were shallow pits all around. This was the privy field. This camp was probably in continual use for centuries. I doubt there was ever a real privy there. Maybe a log or something to designate the active hole. Anyway, I managed to cross the field without falling into anything, and soon found a portage trail. I also found an idyllic camp site under a pine forest. Only problem was the floor was very fragile. I just pitched for one night and made very little disturbance. LNT beside the minefield.

[shelterbuilder]

Federal money has nothing to do with it. The law says that all structures created for the use of the public must be handicap accessible. MATC (Maine Appalachian Trail Club) gets no funds for privy construction. But we still must comply.

Weary, (whose role in life, increasingly, seems to be "to keep the debate honest.")

Weary

The ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) mandates handicapped access at all newly-constructed privies. Ramps (or transfer-platforms), grab bars, specific heights for certain things - it DOES seem a bit silly in some remote locations, but the law IS the law. (Existing structures are still exempt, but some clubs are planning retro-fits in some of the more accessable locations.)

[leaftye]

I hate it when the law doesn't provide room for common sense and is applied by knowledgeable people without the backbone to press for an exemption.

[Attila]

AT is still winning over Boundary Waters when it comes to Privy battle...

[shelterbuilder]

I hate it when the law doesn't provide room for common sense and is applied by knowledgeable people without the backbone to press for an exemption.

Well, if there were no shelters or privies along the trail, and everyone practiced dispersed camping and LNT, then the ADA wouldn't come into play here - although for newer sections of trail....

ADA as it applies to "the backcountry" is STILL something new and novel, and as such, it has yet to generate "absolutely absurd" applications that would lead the courts to try to limit it. This is probably a good thing, since we don't want to encourage ANYONE with a disability to feel like they're being told, "You're not welcome here". There are, after all, some folks with disabilities (and I include myself in this number) who are always willing to prove that their disability won't stop them from doing what they love. (Now, if I could just figure out how to modify my scuba gear....:-?)

As a "builder of facilities" on the AT, I haven't yet been forced into compliance with ADA, since my last "new project" took place prior to ADA's appearance on the AT scene, although my last repairs have been done with an eye towards compliance, and some future repair work will also be leaning that way. The way I look at it, it may add to the overall cost of the project, but it'll make things better for everyone. (Hey, at the end of a long day's hike, would you rather climb up steps to get to the privy, or stroll up a ramp?)

[ChinMusic]

The way I look at it, it may add to the overall cost of the project, but it'll make things better for everyone. (Hey, at the end of a long day's hike, would you rather climb up steps to get to the privy, or stroll up a ramp?)
Steps without question. Ramps are def more dangerous as the slope can often be slippery.

There is no need for ramps in the middle of nowhere. Anyone that can get to these privies can negotiate a couple steps.

[h. hastings]

AT is still winning over Boundary Waters when it comes to Privy battle...


Ah yes ...... the mighty Thunder Box!

[Graywolf]

I still think the privy program on the AT is very good. I would like to get a similar program into the Texas Parks And Wildlife dept.. They could realy benefit from it..The WMA's in Texas are suffering because the hunter camps and other areas dont have anything..I know what your going to say, but they don't use cat holes out there..

Not to long ago I was at Gus Engling WMA in Texas. TP&W asked me to put up a frog logger in a wet area. It was located behind the hunters camp close to a small water impoundment. When I arrived, I was stunned by what I saw, I was sick..Toilet paper and @#$% all over the place.. Not in holes, just everywhere..On the sides of trees, plants, bushes, you name it..I know this is alittle grapical but I am making a point..These people did not use NO cat holes..It was sick...I went back to the MA office and told them I would NO WAY put up a logger in that area until it was cleaned up..Now I am working at getting them to installing privys similar to the ones on the AT to help minimize the impact of all the hunters that come into the area..I wished I had a pic to put up here for you to see, but then, it may be deleted anyway because of the sickness of it..

If there were no privys on the AT, I just cant imagine the impact the "catholes" would have..

Thats one reason I am for the privys and the shelters..They do help..

Graywolf

[JustaTouron]

I hate to start a new thread on this, so i'll post it here first.

When no privy is available, and the you've "got one touching your underwear," do you pull out a trowel and dig a hole, do your business, and cover it up? Or do you just find a remote area to do the deed and carry on about your hike?

The reason I ask, is because in the thread about "trail annoyances" several poster's mentioned stumbling on piles of crap and toilet paper. Quite frankly, this surprised me as I thought it was common courtesy to dig a hole and then cover it all up.

What's your take?

I do that, but not in that order....I do my business then dig the hole and use a stick to push the crap into the hole.

Two reason. If I need to go real bad, I would rather not take the time to do the digging first. And even if I dig the hole first, I would often miss and need to push the crap into the hole.

[shelterbuilder]

I still think the privy program on the AT is very good. I would like to get a similar program into the Texas Parks And Wildlife dept.. They could realy benefit from it..The WMA's in Texas are suffering because the hunter camps and other areas dont have anything..I know what your going to say, but they don't use cat holes out there..

Not to long ago I was at Gus Engling WMA in Texas. TP&W asked me to put up a frog logger in a wet area. It was located behind the hunters camp close to a small water impoundment. When I arrived, I was stunned by what I saw, I was sick..Toilet paper and @#$% all over the place.. Not in holes, just everywhere..On the sides of trees, plants, bushes, you name it..I know this is alittle grapical but I am making a point..These people did not use NO cat holes..It was sick...I went back to the MA office and told them I would NO WAY put up a logger in that area until it was cleaned up..Now I am working at getting them to installing privys similar to the ones on the AT to help minimize the impact of all the hunters that come into the area..I wished I had a pic to put up here for you to see, but then, it may be deleted anyway because of the sickness of it..

If there were no privys on the AT, I just cant imagine the impact the "catholes" would have..

Thats one reason I am for the privys and the shelters..They do help..

Graywolf

Since the NPS is a branch of the federal government, it has the option of telling the various states and local authorities what will be done on FEDERAL land (not vice versa) (state land is another matter). But I've always tried to follow current state sanitary regulations - which is tough sometimes, because the regs are written for the "front country", not the back country. (In Pa., there is no official distinction between the two.) As I said in a previous post, if there were no shelters (ie - a "campground" by state definition), then we would not have to provide a sanitary facility (this from the state regs - if you have the one, then you MUST have the other).

That having been said, THERE'S NO EXCUSE for the kind of mess that you describe - that's just being lazy and piggish. And it's a health hazard. Digging a hole and covering it up afterwards takes - maybe - an extra 20 seconds, and if the soil microbes have about 2 to 3 weeks, everything gets broken down. That's the beauty of dispersed camping coupled with LNT - if it's done properly, the risk of contamination is minimal, and break-down is quick. But when you have a "campground"....:(